[MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] So here we are. Right now there are some construction work going on outside. I do apologize if you can hear some scaffolding going up. But that's just what we're dealing with here. So once again, we're back to the video nasties. It's the seventh part of eight. We're almost there. That's why eight parts over two months' video nasties. These were either a series of films so utterly depraved that the UK government at the approach of the midday parties took onto themselves to ban them and to prosecute the distributors of the tapes. Or they were simply just a random collection of horror and exploitation films that got caught up. In a feeding frenzy of easy, manipulated, moral majority public, taken with believing the bullshit handed out to them by a seemingly lawless UK tabloid press. Let me tell you where I stand. B. Either way, what I've done is I've put them all on a lesson. I've watched them all. And then I decided to put them in order of my words to my favorites. All 39 of them. They're the prosecuted video nasties films. (upbeat music) And today, we've actually reached the number nine spot. We're in the top 10. The number, in fact, where I have placed. I spit on your grave, a.k.a. Day of the Woman, from 1975. Number nine is where I put it, yeah. Now, this episode itself, it finished the whole season over on Patreon. It was a very first watch for me. And it's one that I've always been a little bit scared of approaching, but yeah, I explained that in the chat. But look, look at where I've placed it. It's so good. And I wanted to find just the perfect guess for it. And of course, it was definitely worth the wait. Taking time out from running a boutique BHS micro label, it's black video. It's felt with a double V on video, just like the film The Vivitch. It's Shay Mossafern. This was one of my very favorite chats from the whole series. Enjoy it. (upbeat music) - Like I was saying, this is a really tough one to talk about with people because people have really strong opinions about it. One way or the other, understandably so. But I saw it at a pretty young age, much younger than I should have been seeing this movie. Yeah, it jumped out of the shelf at a video store with that wizard big box cover with allegedly Demi Moore. - Yeah, she said that it was her in a part of her book. And I read that and I didn't believe it. So I then pulled up the book. And yeah, she does mention it in there, so. - Oh, amazing. Yeah, I didn't realize she finally said something publicly about it 'cause there was rumors. There was a woman who claimed to be a friend of hers back in the day. And then her, I think her partner was working on, I think a DVD reissue and said, "Oh yeah, you know that's Demi Moore on the cover." Or no, she said to him, "You know that's Demi Moore on the cover." He's like, "Oh yeah, I do know that." But it was never really confirmed, so. - Yeah, I don't know whether it's still to believe her or not. (laughing) - Yeah, fair enough. But either way, it's a provocative cover. And it doesn't really, I think, deliver the sort of movie that's advertised on the cover though. I think the cover gives it more of almost like a, like this is gonna be a sexy revenge movie. And it's anything but that. And I didn't expect it. I felt sideswiped. And as a little kid too, I think I was in my mid teens when I saw it. I, I didn't know anything really about like sex. And I had an idea from sex ed, but this was a pretty brutal way to learn what's possible, what people are capable of. And it felt like an omen. Like, wow, this can happen. It's absolutely horrifying. - That is not what you want for an introduction to sex. That's all, oh my goodness. Mine was the entity, you know that one? - Oh yeah. - I had no idea what sex was until I was watching that. And I mean, can you believe it? - Oh my God. Yeah, horror films give you such a strange perspective on sex. And like this movie has a lot of criticism for being misogynistic and glorifying rape and which of course the subject matters so difficult. You can understand why, but I think that where the director was coming from was much more from a perspective of sensitivity and believe it or not based on an experience that he'd had rescuing a woman who had been raped in a park. So yeah, he was really trying to capture the devastation, the total emotional physical devastation of being attacked. And yeah, that's a whole story. I don't know if you want to go into that now, but... - We can jump all over the place. Yeah, that's absolutely fine. Yeah, don't you worry. I'm happy to go loose and fancy-free with this one. That's for sure. Also, I know I don't have to worry about my silly English phrases and sayings here because I'm sure you're well used to... - There's a few that I sometimes have to go, what? Like the other day Sam said, crack on lad. And I said, what does that mean? Should I keep going? Is he supposed to keep going? - The first thing I want to talk about is I mentioned, I've got introduced to your sort of, I would say like micro VHS label. Is that right? Am I right to say that? - Absolutely. - Yep. - So yeah, tell me a little bit about that. And for the listeners that don't know, I have a friend who we subscribe to the same record club. And he's always telling me about these cool little things, like that sort of underground of America, he loves it. And you were mentioned in this. And then I thought, oh wow, there is a film that I want to chat about with you now. And I'm so glad we've done it. So yeah, tell me a little bit about your label and like what was your thought and the idea behind it? - Oh, absolutely. I started the label in 2019 when I came across a tape called Executioner, the Musical from 1989, filmed in the Chicago area by a guy named Scott Granky, who I lovingly refer to as Chicago's underground John Waters because he worked with quite a few people in the drag community. And he made movies that were very raunchy, disgusting, too wild for television. They were mostly on cable access. And he released these movies on VHS, just a handful of his movies in the early 2000s for a Comic Con and he didn't really sell any. He got frustrated and discarded the majority of the tapes. So they've worked their way into Chicago's, I guess subconscious. If you go into your thrift shop there, you'll maybe see one of these tapes. And I found one on eBay and when I played it, I could not believe what I was seeing. The homemade like pipe bomb explosions, blood pumps, people dancing around and singing. It's actually a musical, there are five songs about an Executioner who crashes a party. And he just, if you don't invite him to your party, he's gonna show up and kill everybody. So I posted a few clips online and I had people hitting me up asking if I could bootleg it. And at that point, I thought, no, I'm not gonna bootleg it. I'm gonna find this guy and I'm gonna ask permission and I'm gonna put this thing out and actually put some elbow grease into it and give it a wider release, give it some new art. And I did, I tracked him down. I emailed every single Scott Granky I could find on Facebook and eventually this guy got in touch and said, "Yeah, why do you wanna talk about my weird old movies?" It was great. And yeah, I started working with a designer named Eric, Adrian Lee. He does tons of work for Arrow, for Severin, for Vinegar Syndrome. Soundtrack design is his big thing. He designed Fabio Frissey's most recent albums, Goblins, albums. And he did the art for my logo, for the first three releases I did. He did work for Dead of Night, which is a cable access TV show I put out last year. And having him behind me was quite a catapult. Just having that beautiful art in a legit VHS box. I found a printer who will, they actually had their original die cut from the 90s and they just pulled it off the shelf, dusted it off and used it for my tapes. So yeah, they're legit boxes. And yeah, I love tapes. A lot of people ask, "Why don't you do Blu-ray or get into that market?" I'm not really against it. I just feel like my place is finding those kind of under scene unsung gems that are a little more regional. You know, the things that didn't really get outside of their zip code. And that's really where my heart is. I wanna find things that were kind of meant to be on VHS and get them out there. - What about that hunt of tracking these people down? Is that part of the joy of it? Like trying to get that called? - Yes, it's like a hunt. And sometimes I'll find someone and they're like, "Oh, you missed me by just a couple of days." Like I was really close to putting out trash cans of terror and someone beat me to it by a couple of weeks. So it is a little bit of like a, there's a market out there for sure. But I get really excited when someone sends me a message and says, "Hey, my dad was in this weird horror cable access show 15 years ago, you wanna see it." Stuff like that where I will see something completely unexpected that nobody remembers and be able to give it new life. It's really exciting. Yeah, I definitely love that part of it. And I really love this idea of making something new with new art but having it be as honest and authentic to what it was initially to. I don't do a ton of remastering. I do some cleaning up if there's issues with sound or over time things will sometimes get moldy or sticky. But I try to keep things as honest as they were and give people the real old school sort of feel and look when they hit play. Like, "Dead of Night" was a cable access series from Spokane that my friend Dan Keene turned me on to. And the guys shot this TV show in their spare time when they were overnight security guards at a Lamonts. So they were bored on the clock and they got cable access gear and they shot a sci-fi horror TV show and they never really got in trouble. It's fucking amazing. These guys love the X-Files and John Carpenter and Don of the Dead and they just made this show but nobody would play it. So they bought ad time on one of those like late night infomercial channels like "Thighmaster" and "Cookware" and whatever. You'd be watching it, they're being ad and then suddenly these two guys are running around Spokane setting things on fire and shooting things with actual guns. It's totally nuts. And when I released it, I also put out some of the commercials that they shot themselves for other companies but there was always a horror twist like they did a car battery commercial but framed it like "Night of the Living Dead" there's zombies and it's really great. So I tried to make it like a late night TV experience when you hit play from beginning to end. - The packaging on that one is so cool. It's the double one, isn't it? - That's right. - I used to remember them in the video shop and be so excited 'cause I was getting double the time and double the tape so I loved it. - Exactly. Oh, I'm glad you liked that. Yeah, we liked it too. We thought it was a pretty good way to deal with it 'cause there's so much material. We're like, "Should we just do one tape at a time?" And I thought, "No, let's do this." Like the old Titanic style tape box. (laughs) Yeah. - Yeah. Is there any projects that you've got in the bag that you can announce? So this isn't coming out until January or February. So is there anything that you've got in the can or is there stuff you can't announce? - There are a few things I've already announced but in January, I hope to have Dr. Death out. That's from 1989. It was shot in Eugene, Oregon, south of here. It's a post-apocalyptic, I guess you could call it a horror film shot by teenagers. In particular, Webster Colcord. He is an animator. He worked with Wilventon Studios. He sculpted the California Raisins when he was 18. He's a professional effects guy. He's great. He works on Stranger Things. He worked on the host, the South Korean film. (laughs) - Wow. - Yeah, he's been around forever and this is his very first movie. So I'm putting that out. I'm also putting out very short but very rad, a slasher from 1980. I think also 1989, apparently that's my year. Called The Boys Night Out and that's my friend Peter's movie that he shot as a 15 year old with his 14 and 15 year old friends. It's part toxic Avenger, part revenge of the nerds and it's so funny. That's coming out in December. But the thing I have not announced yet is another Scott Granky release. That's the director of executioner, the musical and Ram Boner, one and two, not a porno. - I love that. And no, a porno, right? - Not a porno. Just so you know, this is called the Babette Bombshell Collection. Scott works with and worked with a lot of drag queens in the Chicago community. And one in particular, her name is Babette Bombshell and she's kind of like Chicago's divine. I think she was in class of Nukem High. She's in a bunch of trauma movies. - Okay. - But her first two movies ever were with Scott and that's what I'm putting out. They're extremely gross though. One is called Muddy Waters. It's about this poor girl goes on a date and she has explosive diarrhea. It's really awkward. And then the other movie is called Nancy, the fleshy headed mutant about this mutant alien woman who kills people via amazing blowjobs. So it's very raunchy, but very hilarious. And actually has screened in Italy at the Chinna Underground Film Festival. People there love it. It's real trashy and funny, all done in good humor. So I'll be putting out that set and then also his The Amazing Doctor Leach, which is another poor film. - I have to ask another question. Oh no, I understand, but we should be getting on but I just need to know, how do you like obtain these tapes? Like, do you get the original masters or is it like a copy of a copy of a copy? How do you get them? - It's a mixture actually. So with Dead of Night, they sent me all the original SVHS tapes and the Umatic tapes in some cases. And I had to actually scan them. I had to find someone who actually had a scanner. And the guy that I found said, "Oh, you're really lucky." I found the one person in America who knows how to repair these Umatic scanners and I just had it repaired. So he had to put some of my tapes even into the dehydrator that you use for fruit and meat. Like he had to get some of the dunk off the tape and due to her three passes. So sometimes I get the masters. Sometimes it's a copy of a copy. In the case of executioner, I found the tape that he had made but Ram Boner had never had a release before. So that had to be scanned. But thankfully Scott had the gear at his place or he had access 'cause I think he teaches film production. So he was able to scan it for me. But in a lot of cases, it's a word of mouth. People will hit me up and say, "Hey, you should check this out." In some cases, it's literally me looking for something at a thrift or on eBay. - I love it. - And seeing it and taking a chance on it. Yeah. (laughs) - So lucky to have people with that sort of vision that I want to restore stuff. My wife, she works in digital archiving. She is one of the heads over at Canterbury University. And she is currently on a two year project of comedy shows and comedy posters and anything at all to do with comedy. And it's such an interesting job that she has to digitize like old VHS or even like laser discs and things like that and just to ensure that these things that were very limited at the time, they don't disappear forever. So that's how a job to save these things. And that's what you're doing. You are bringing these things from the grave and shining a light on it. I love it. - I didn't really think of it that way, but you're right. And that is what it is. It's exciting. It feels like a treasure hunt. It's just wonderful. And there's so much out there. Something that my friend Scott from Strange Tapes mentioned is that there really is a lot of gold in them hills still. Like we think that, oh, everything that has ever been worth releasing has been released. And it's just not the case. Like there's so much that just has to be hunted for. It's not gonna be, I don't think I'm gonna find something completely mind blowing, but you never know. I mean, New York Ninja is an example of something that was gonna get thrown away and was completely pieced together and reimagined and it's a triumph. So yeah, that's my dream is to have a New York Ninja experience. - Yeah, have someone knocking on your door. - Right. - Yeah, right. Okay, let's get to it then. Let's dig a bit on the video nasties and sort of where they fit into your life. Now you're a champion clearly of VHS. How do I phrase this? I don't believe you were around at that time when these things were coming out. So like, how did you find out about it? And you can't, what's your history with it? - Okay, I am 43. So I was around for, I guess, really the heyday of VHS. But I grew up in Alaska, which is very, for those who don't live on this part of the world. It's pretty far north of America. It became a state just in the last century. And there really was not a lot to do. - Right. - And I grew up sober and I'm still sober. So I did not really like hang out with people drinking and running around and throwing shit off of cliffs. Like I probably should have been doing as a teenager. I just went to the video store and we didn't have nasties here. Of course, in the states that didn't exist here. The movies did, but we didn't have the laws. And my video store really only checked ID if you were checking out an adult film, which I wasn't doing. And like I mentioned earlier, like I learned a lot about sex and depravity and violence through horror films. But I didn't feel the need to go out and commit acts of violence myself, which will get into the controversy of video nasties. But yeah, for me, it was more of a catharsis. It was a thrill. It was something to do. I really wanted to scare my friends. So I would just try to find the scariest possible tape. I remember buying out the horror tape section at one stop video when they went out of business because blockbuster kicked them out of the area. So yeah, I bought out all the horror films I could buy. And I watched as many as I possibly could see. But yeah, I really didn't get much of the sort of the limitations that come with a video nasties. I didn't have, they weren't like, how do I say this? They weren't inaccessible to me. There was more of a stigma around music, like heavy metal and rap with tipper gore and, you know, and we have freedom of expression and freedom of speech in the States. And I think that's protected film to some degree, but just the video boom meant that a lot of people were putting out movies straight to tape. And there wasn't a lot of the hoop jumping that you have to do with theaters. And yeah, you needed an MPAA score to get into theaters to be successful, but it wasn't required for tape. You could do whatever you wanted. Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of that even nowadays with TikTok and with internet content. Like people are still trying to figure out how to catch up with how content is leaked to children. But yeah, I loved being able to go into the store and rent whatever I wanted. And it was kind of a shock to me when I met Sam and learned about his history with tapes. Like he grew up in a home with a constant stream of underground bootleg videotapes 'cause his dad was part of that circuit in the London area. Yeah, like he saw Fritz the Cat way too young. All kinds of movies he shouldn't have seen. But yeah, for him, it was a sort of like a secret from what I can gather that it was something you didn't really talk about because you could get in big trouble. Yep, yeah. Yeah. I used to, so I think it was around 889 and I was just discovering all this music and getting into horror. And I would send off to Germany to get bootlegs of watching my favorite bands. Like so there was creator say playing in Essen and I'm like, wow, what would that be like? So I would send a postal order, so cash in the mail over to Germany and on their lists at the very bottom, after all these bands, it would be a section just nasties and it would be all these video nasty titles that you could just add on to the end of your film because the concert was quite short and there were long tapes. And I never had the guts to do it because I remember in the newspapers that my mum and dad would be like really angry about it like how can they show you this filth and all that sort of stuff? They believed that hype and of course it rubbed off as me as a kid. So yeah, I was always frightened by this stuff, always until sort of I became an adult myself and could think for myself. Yeah, so it's a weird how it sort of affected me like that. That's interesting. Did you see any as a kid that you watched now that? I only got evil dead, but that again, that was just because it was banned. So all my friends had a copy of this one and they all came out and watched it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden it was out. So like we could actually go in a shop and buy it. It was a very strange year. I think Texas Chainsaw as well, which wasn't part of the list, but it was just forever banned. Yeah, okay. You could buy that. It was like, wow, this is insane. Like what's happened here? So it was exciting times. Yeah, God, yeah, it's so different for us here. I mean, I wonder how that would affect my enjoyment of horror. Like if there's this sort of intrigue, like this sort of, I don't know, anticipation feeding into the whole enjoyment of the experience. Like, yeah, that'd be really bizarre. I've definitely watched movies now that I've seen as a kid that I'm like, what was I scared of? Yeah, if it were forbidden my entire life, I think I would probably be more excited to watch it as an adult than ever before. I mean, one of the reasons I started this whole thing was so I could just have that list and tick them off and like go through them. And this is my very final one. So before I ask you, I just give you my history with I spit on your grave. Yeah, please. My girlfriend at the time now, my wife, she knew I loved horror and it was one that I'd never seen. So she bought it for me as a birthday present. Oh my God. Yeah, and I turned it off and it was a cut version as well. I turned it off 28 minutes in. I couldn't watch anymore. Yeah. I'm so sorry, I can't keep it, just take it back. Oh my gosh. It affected me in a real big way. So I've had that for two decades of my life now, just can't be dealing with that. And then for this, I thought, right, come on, you've watched all sorts. The other day, I watched guinea pig two and it was like, ah, whatever. You know, let's move it on. So yeah, I will get into what I think of it now, but what's your history with this one? When did you first see it? Well, I rented it as a teen because of that big old wizard box with Demi Moore on the cover. And it seemed innocent enough. It seemed like a revenge movie. She seemed really strong. And I was just enticed by this idea of a woman getting her comeuppance. And I wanted to see her stomp some scumbags. I was really into that. What I did not expect was a 26 minute gang rape sequence. And I had never seen really anything that explicit, even in horror, like I had seen, of course, a lot of death. Like in the States, we don't really censor violence as much as we do nudity in sex. So those movies tend to get like, you know, X ratings and NC 17 ratings, but the R ratings are a little more like censoring of sex and of sex, not really violence. But yeah, I found it nasty, brutal, cruel, disturbing on every single level. But there were moments of what I felt was like an omen of what could happen, this sort of like almost like a catharsis. And I think it's Camille Keaton's performance that really made it watchable for me. I had to get through those scenes. Like I just kind of made myself keep going. I think I was like, wow, it's still going. Oh, okay, it's still going. And I didn't notice until midway that there's no music either. Like it adds such a element of foreboding and discomfort over the entire movie. But you really notice it there. But yeah, I actually also got the DVD as a birthday gift. Later in life, I'd seen it on tape. And then I think it was my friend, Brandy, but it might have been my friend, John Torani. But yeah, it was a gift. And I decided to watch the commentary track. And I don't know if this is the one that has Joe Bob Briggs on it, but watching the commentary at Joe Bob Briggs made this movie completely digestible. And when I re-watched it recently on 4K, they had also had that Joe Bob Briggs commentary. And you have such a matter of fact, level-headed kind of comical approach to it where I'm like, oh, he, Joe Bob's cool. I'm cool. That's fine. No big deal. Like it really helped me get through it. And then learning about the backstory, about why he made the movie also justified in my mind, the level of brutality that he shows in the film. So yeah, I found it on good old nasty VHS and then cleaned up on 4K. I've been through the whole gamut with this movie. And every time I take something different from it. You mentioned that you are a champion of this film at the beginning. And there is, in part of what I read about it, I read that director actually said that he doesn't consider it an exploitation film in any way. He said the violence was necessary for the whole thing, for the story to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yet I do remember that first watch and I admit, I turned it off before we got to any of the revenge part. Yeah, yeah. But I just felt like I wasn't ready for it mentally. I wasn't ready for it physically. I couldn't handle it. I felt white hot. It just made me creep out. And now if I get anything like that, I feel like, wow, this film is such a success. It's affected me, right? I'm so desensitized. Yeah. Yes. Back then, it just felt like, right, you've hit a nerve and I don't like the way you've hit it. I love that you champion it. Why is it that you champion this? When the general consensus is, like, this is exploitation, this is nasty to women. Like, why is it that you think we're actually hold on there? Oh, absolutely. I've had this conversation with a lot of folks and I always keep an open mind and I am not one to say that anyone's reaction is wrong or off the line. A lot of people do question, was Miyazaki in his lane when he made this? Here he is, a man making a movie about rape and revenge. What qualifies him? And I do think that like a lot of the criticism coming from feminist film critics is interesting 'cause a lot of people are split. A lot of feminist film theory critics say, this is offensive. It's unduly irresponsible in the way that it presents sexuality. They say that, for example, there was one critic who said that Jennifer was showing her legs a little too much to the guys in the gas station. They say this is filmed from a male perspective and that the revenge itself is done in two masculine of a way and that this is a script that says what's a man going to do here, not what's a woman going to do. Or that Camille is weak in those moments that she doesn't fight back hard enough during the attacks. That's something else I've heard. That this glamorizes rape, that it makes rape look sexy, that's going to influence people to rape. But I would argue that it's entirely Jennifer's prerogative to wear a dress or a top with no bra. She can let her hair down and wear a bikini if she wants to without being attacked. And I'd also say it's the feminist approach to not villainize Jennifer for wanting those things. And also about the male gaze. Like that's an interesting thing in here and it's something that Joe Bob also mentioned, but I felt like there are moments where there's a very gaze like quality, very male gaze on her, but it's a demented male gaze. It's not right, it's creepy. Like when she takes off her clothing and dives naked into the who's tonic, it's like the camera could not get away faster. Like last time I saw a shot that long was an Orson Welles movie. Like it's just like all the way back and you can tell she's naked and you can tell she's in the river, but she's just a little dot. But you feel like you're watching her, like you're a creep across the river, like watching this beautiful woman. And I'd say that it's very much a mixture of gaze, but when it is male, I think it's pretty creepy. But something else I noticed is that the pacing of the film, which is often criticized is it's purposefully elongated and kind of lingering. Like the shots go on for a really long time in the beginning when she's getting to know the estate and the cabin and walking around and lazily typing away at her keyboard and reading a book in bed that it just is kind of slow. But the pace really picks up, the edits get fast, the camera gets janky, it gets blurry, it gets out of control, it gets chaotic, the moment the attack begins. And to me, that's a sign that we're following her story entirely, we're in her head, we're in her state of mind, in her emotional state, and that it's being reflected in the way that it's being filmed. And in between the attacks, we're with her the entire time, we could have gone with the wolf pack and seen them talk about how they're gonna catch her next because they do anticipate her every move. And everywhere she goes, there they are. But instead we're with her. And I think those sequences are the most important, those scenes between the attacks where she's pulling herself back to safety and walking, even though she can barely move. It takes every ounce of her strength. She's muddy, she's bloody, she's shaking, but she's moving to safety every single time. And there's one scene where she encounters like one of the guys, he's on a rock, I'm sure you remember the harmonica scene, you just hear this harmonica, like it's the only music is the harmonica and she plays a record near the end. And she could have run away, but she stands her ground and she doesn't really start to want to bolt until she realizes there are more people there and they've cornered her. That's when she panics, but you can see a look of hate in her face, it's like a hate of, or sorry, a look of wanting to kill that guy. And her performance is so subtle, but very convincing and that scream that she gives in that scene, I cannot think of a more guttural primal scream in a film than that one. I mean, it's up there, it's like Marilyn Chambers at the end of Texas Chainsaw for me, like it is just an incredible performance that she gives. Like, I don't see any weakness in that performance whatsoever. Yeah, and if I were to waffle on a little longer. - Play, play. - I mean, I would say that this is entirely from her perspective, even during the attacks, you're getting, you know, these sort of longer shots of what's happening, but it's completely disgusting. They're just, they're smothering her and it's gross, it's nauseating. And the other shots are usually of the attacker, it's a close-up of their face. And I think the reason that he again slowed down and allowed that to linger is because a victim doesn't get the luxury of fast forwarding or cutting through a situation like that. He's putting us into her shoes completely. We're at the mercy of the attackers. We have to sit through that entire scene and it's not sugar-coated in any way, shape or form. And I think that's what's so difficult, is there's really no escape. If you were to actually finish the film, you'd have to get through that. And I think that's actually pretty clever filmmaking. Yeah, going back to the reasons that Zarky made this, he was driving through a park with his eight-year-old daughter and his friend Alex, I don't remember his last name, but he did the sound design on "I Spit" on your grave. They were driving through the park and they'd stopped, I think at a stop sign, and Alex says, is she naked? And he's pointing at a bush. And Mayors is like, what are you talking about? And he looks over and there is a naked, bloody, muddy woman in the bush. And she had just been raped and left for dead in the park. And so they jump out, they wrap her up in coats and raincoats 'cause it was raining. And they put her next to the eight-year-old girl in the back of the car and then they drop the girl off at home. She tells her mom what happened. She tells her mom, oh, dad found a woman who was raped and is taking her to the police. And at that point she had to ask her mom, what's rape? - Jesus. - You imagine, like he's the whore of that. And then Mayors describes bringing her to, this is all true story, bringing her to the police station and watching her be interrogated all over again. They were telling her to speak up, we can't hear you, talk louder, why were you in the park? What were you wearing? And it infuriated him so much that he yelled, call this woman an ambulance and they did. And when she was taken away to the hospital, he left, but he went home and started typing the screenplay to ice spit on your grave, which of course he called the day of the woman. So I think he wanted to get that sense of devastation across and he really does in those scenes. And he doesn't leave anything to the imagination. - So I found it pretty fascinating. Yeah, yeah, it's really an insane story. I don't know of many movies that confront this subject matter and have such a visceral backstory and such a tragic backstory. And yeah, he was an older white man, but he is saying something and he made a statement. And I think that's really important because this movie feels a lot like for me, a knee jerk reaction to centuries of generational trauma of a sex abuse, of violence towards women. And I found it very cathartic even as like a teenager who didn't really understand what was going on. I didn't understand the world to be quite so ugly. You hear of things, you hear the word rape, but you don't really think about what that means. And it felt like a Grimm's fairy tale for like what can happen in the woods. Little red riding hood and all these stories that we hear as children, but here it is, no escaping it. Yeah, and it's advertised in this box that just looks like any other horror movie. That's what blows me away. Like you're talking about not being able to finish the scene. I think a lot of people have that response. A lot of my friends who are female and female bodied refuse to watch this movie or even get through it. And I have nothing but respect for that. But I get something from her revenge, which I even feel a little guilty about sometimes because she's absolutely brutal. Like she, oh my God, it's more than an eye for an eye here. Like she, we can talk about that more, but yeah, she sure does get her come up and say like, but the one part that tickles me is, or sorry, the one part that tickles in the back of my mind is how the cycle of victim abuser works. And she went from being a victim to being a stone cold murderer. And the cycle continues. And that is another bit of criticism I hear about, I spit on your grave, which does make sense. Was that the best way for her to handle the situation? It's up for debate, but I guess that's the nature of exploitation films too. This is a revenge fantasy, you know? Like this is something that I think is not limited to female victims or male victims. Like people say, oh, this is a male response. And I'm going, well, I think women also can have this response. Women can also have murderous revenge fantasies. And yeah, I don't know, I think it's interesting. I think it's actually a far more feminine revenge than most rape revenge. I'll say that. Like the silent spring and last house on the left, both intense, difficult rape revenge movies where the revenge is enacted by a man, by a family member. And then you have Ms. 45 and she's blowing people away with a shotgun. But here you have almost this more femme fatale response to what happens. She's in a white flowing dress. And she seduces two of her victims into believing that they're actually going to score with her. - That's crazy. - A committed way. I mean, that was shocking. I'm sorry. That was so crazy when I saw that the first time. - Well, I saw it for the first time recently and I could well believe that men are so full of themselves, full of their ego that they'd be like, Oh, yeah. Like, oh, this is a turn up. This is good. I tell you, I can't believe it. After the, so where I dropped out was before the third sort of session of raping's going on. So when she gets into the house, I was so relieved that she'd made it. And I was like, yes. I came now like, what is the revenge she's going to take? 'Cause again, I've kept myself away from this. I didn't know at all. So I was like, thank goodness she's got there. She is now safe and she's not safe. And after that whole everything that's going on in the house, I'm game. I think it's such a clever thing to do where I'm now fully on board, do what you like. If I was a policeman, I would try and turn that blind eye. You go, girl, get them. You know, that's it. I wanted to kill everyone myself. I was just too much. Yeah, that is the tipping point. 'Cause it's so agonizing. And it is agonizing through that whole entire sequence, but I felt the rage bubbling as well. Like I was so ready for her to do whatever she had to do. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love that jump scare too when he kicks the phone. She's like crawling up to the phone and the look on her face is, it's stoic, but it's brave, but it's also, there's a little bit of fear in there. Like she's just, she looks simultaneously beautiful and terrified and she's reaching for that phone. And then you see a shadow, just kind of like slicker over her right shoulder and then boots to the phone. Like, oh my God, every time I see a dead jump, like it is so well made. A lot of people say this movie is not even really well made. And I'd argue that it's very cleverly structured and edited because yeah, when you do get to that point in the film, what is it like the 40 minute mark, 35 minute mark? You're just ready for her to, you know, release hell on earth on these guys. It's not very, I don't know, it takes a lot to push me into that state of like agitation where I really wanna see someone just go to a berserk people and the way he edits it and the way that he wrote it, which is actually, it's interesting thinking about the way he wrote it. He doesn't have a lot of dialogue in the movie. Most of the dialogue is with the men. A lot of this feels like a silent film. I noticed this last few, just really quiet moments, long takes, you're reading the environment, you're reading your face to figure out what's gonna happen next. Yeah, and the lack of soundtrack too. What did you think about that? As especially as a music person? - I was completely, I felt it was completely jarring when they were in the bar and all of a sudden there was an ambiance of people. There were every chatting going on and all of a sudden there's noise and I hadn't realized, again, just try not to find out anything before I watched it, that there was no soundtrack before. I was so nervous about what was going to happen that I didn't, I was just glued to the screen. I hadn't noticed until I started reading about it after it's like, oh my, what, there was no music. - Oh, wow. - How jarring is that scene though, when they're discussing what they've done and the consequences of such things and like they've got to go back into the body and it just is a jolt. Oh, well, actually, this is reality. We're not in this big fantasy. They're now panicking over like getting caught and things like that and it just goes back to Earth for me before it just goes ballistic and I wrote in my notes. My words are, I hope she kills the fucking fuck out of them. So it was just so confusing with them going into our home 'cause that is a place of safety for us all, our home. Like home invasion is- - Yes, it is a home invasion. - Oh, of course. - Totally right. Like I always think of it as like a being in the woods but that scene, like that's the tipping point is in her home totally. Yeah, especially that the first time they come in to the home, it's consensual and she feels safe and it's a grocery delivery and she's having almost a flirtatious conversation with this character and yeah, oh my God, it is totally like home invasion. Think of it in those terms. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a really fascinating sort of amalgamation genre too because yeah, people file it under horror but like you were saying earlier, even Mayor Zarki himself calls it a horrifying film. It's not a horror film. Rape revenge, it's not a very common genre. At that time at least in 1978, I don't know how many, I haven't done like a tally but I don't think there were many movies like that. So I think a lot of people didn't know what to make of it. But another interesting thing that came up to is, oh, sorry, go ahead to what we're gonna say? No, I was just gonna mention the film The Nightingale. It made me feel very in very much the same way as this one did. Whereas that's beautiful to look at lovely flashy shots like the music swells and things like that. There is almost a polar opposite of this one except the themes seem to be the same for me and it made me feel in the same way. You mentioned the way this is filmed and I do think it's a little bit janky here and there but I love that. I love watching those 70s films with like you can see the hair on the film and the grain in it and like the shoddy cuts where you think, oh man, I wish they'd just waited another second there or something like that. But it adds to this, like it makes it a thing of beauty but it does put a timestamp on it for me. Yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah. I wanted to know, does it hold up for you on this rewatch? Were you still affected by it? - Absolutely, absolutely. I couldn't believe it. I didn't know if I would be but I was, I actually noticed my jaw is hanging down and I was like, whoa, you know, and Sam walked in. He's never seen it and he said, holy fuck, that transfer is amazing because we watched it on 4K and I have to say the 4K reissue really took it over the top. It is beautifully done, beautifully transferred. All the grain is there and it does have a little bit of the, what is it, when something's on Blu-ray and it's almost a little too crisp. Like you can see some of the mistakes or some of the things that they were hoping wouldn't show. Like the makeup is sometimes pretty obviously just like black powder on someone's face. But the colors are really crisp. The sound design really pops and, you know, beyond that though, I don't see how this movie can not pack a punch every time. It's seen, it's such a visceral experience and I don't think I could watch it more than once every five years, to be honest. If that, maybe I've seen it for the last time, I'm not sure, but a lot of people say this is a one and done kind of movie but I would argue that it's worth revisiting. Especially, you know what? Watch it with Joe Bob's commentary. Just put that commentary on, take back with a bag of popcorn and trust that Joe Bob isn't gonna lead you astray. Like it makes it a little bit easier the first time. So is this 4K uncut and has that commentary on it as well? - It does, yeah. It's a three disc set. And the final disc, sorry, I actually don't remember the name of the company who put it out, but the final disc has a documentary made by his son. And that was interesting to see too. Because none of the male actors in the movie really did anything else. I mean, how do you go from, I spin on your grave to Broadway productions or Oreo commercials? Like, yeah, I was rapist number three. It doesn't really translate. So yeah, they kind of tragic in a way though, because they were good, especially the main creepoid Johnny, I think. Yeah, he was great, he had some crud vibes for sure, he had like David Hess vibes for sure. - Right, God. So thank you so much, it's been incredible. - Absolutely, thank you so much for having me on. This is a delight. - I think this is a real problem with the bill. And that is that any sort of constructive discussion about it is turned into anybody who is opposed to the bill as it stands at the moment. It's turned into a prayer of porn who wants to corrupt children, et cetera. Now many people supported the bill as it's been said, it had all parties support to begin with. When Graham Bright moved it in the house, he said, look, this is a first draft, we'll have to try and sort it out to get it right. Very few changes have been made. And what we have ended up with is a bill which does far more than tackle the issue of video nasties. And Graham Bright is quite wrong on that film when he says that all that happened is that this bill does for videos what has already happened to film. Some examples have been given, let me just give you just one more, news. Now news films have always been exempt from classification. I suppose because by the time stuff got classified, it would be old, it's not news. Now news videos, if they portray violence, et cetera, if they portray perhaps ships being blown up, et cetera, it will not be exempt, films produced by groups like the Natural Child Birth Trust will not be exempt because they will not, well, it is true. And they will not, well, perhaps people should read the bill more carefully because we have in fact had the privilege of an organisation of discussing these points with David Mallows et cetera because such videos will not necessarily be produced by the medical profession. (upbeat music) All righty, I reckon that the best fit for this film was at my number eight position. It was the house on the edge of the park. It was from 1980 and this is a solo cast. It's just me. It really stuck with me this one. And as soon as I watched it, I didn't want to wait around. I just wanted to let you know what I thought. (upbeat music) My first watch with this one, it was hard to get through because you have no idea how this is gonna resolve itself, no idea at all. So what's the state of play with House on the Edge of the Park? Well, it is directed by Regaro Diadato and it was released a mere eight months after Cannibal Holocaust. One of my favourite films that I've discovered since actually doing the podcast. Now, that is an unbelievable sentence, right? Not that I'd started the podcast and watched it, but the fact that this was released eight months after. Pretty much filmed back to back. And both of these films, they're regarded as total classics of their genre. It's the same director, it's the same year and that is just madness. Similarly, David Hess, he also cemented his reputation from just two movies. And just like with Diadato, House on the Edge of the Park is unbelievably not the hugely successful and world renowned disgusting one, no. This is the less popular disgusting one. David Hess, of course, he was the head villain in "Last House" on the left as well. So yeah, in this David Hess, he plays Alex. Now, another actor that I've got to mention is Giovanni Lombardo Raditi. He plays Alex's partner in crime, Ricky. And just check out this for an opening to your career in film. It's incredible. So in 1980, he's in three absolute bangers. He's in Cannibal apocalypse. And then he's in "City of the Living Dead" and then he's in "The House at the Edge of the Park", all 1980 releases. That's insane. What a run. Then the following year, Lenzi snaps him up. He's in "Cannibal Ferrocks" where he plays that total bastard in that called Mike Logan. If you know the film, you know exactly who I mean. "Deadly Impact" followed in 1984. And I think that is just like this Italian sort of action knockoff. So I don't know anything about that one. But then after that, he is in a decent sized role as Brett in the birdheaded killer classic stage, right? And maybe not at the time, but that is incredible. What an incredible set of films to begin your career in. Well, I say that. I mean, it is all relative. I guess if you're into Italian junk, then he's beyond a superstar to you. And if you're not into that Italian junk, then maybe you're like, who's this? But anyway, as I mentioned, he plays Ricky. And he's a little slow. He's a bit of a dweeb. He's not very cool with the women, but he is an easily led type of character. And the tone of the film allows us to carry a little bit of sympathy for him, which, given all the circumstances, I think it is maybe, maybe earned, but maybe not. The final actor that I want to highlight, though, is Christian Baromio. He's one of the good guys. He plays Tom. And he gives the weirdest performance in this film. It would seem that no matter what violence, what scum-fueled villainy, is just playing out in front of him, he just remains calm. It's as if he has a greater plan. And it's the only inkling that this movie is actually gonna be more than just the sum of its parts. And just earlier this week, I also watched him in Argento's "Tenerbray." And yeah, he is great in that one, too. So, armed with some of this knowledge of the cast before going in, I think it's actually now time to run through the movie with you. It's gonna be in spoiler-ific detail, as I mentioned. And here we go. - We got a boogie. (dramatic music) - Oh, you're gonna have a point. - Just to get some. - Okay, to get. How many people? (dramatic music) (laughing) Back and back. Now, babe, yourself. (dramatic music) (laughing) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) ♪ Waiting just for you ♪ ♪ Waiting just for you ♪ - I'm really cooking the night, ain't I? - Shut up! Shut up, asshole! (dramatic music) (dramatic music) - Right, okay, so the letterbox synopsis says, "Anything could happen, everything did." Alex is a darkly sinister thug, driving around New York City at night where he spots a young woman driving alongside him. He follows a woman to a nearby park where he cuts her off. He gets out of his car, he runs into hers where he throws her in the back seat and he proceeds to savagely rape her before strangling her to death. He takes her look at as a trophy to another one of his many killings. So, let's roll this music and let's go through this thing, shall we? (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Hess is playing Alex who is driving a car into New York City, the twin towers that on the horizon. He cuts off a woman driving, runs into her car as it says in that synopsis and he says to her, "Do you recognize me from the disco "and that he rapes her on the back seat?" Strangles her. All this happens whilst this pretty little ballad plays in the background with this child-like feminine voice singing. Very strange. Turns out that Hess is a mechanic and I'm gonna call him Hess because that's who it is. Hess plays this one character to me and he's horrible. Anyway, he's getting ready to go out with a mate but then a guy pulls in and he wants his car fixed. So, they do fix it but it's in exchange for a party invite where the broken car people are headed anyway. So far, so weird and surely, I think at this point, Hess may well have twigged in like, "You're gonna just let us in and go to your party." (upbeat music) Seems strange but you know, suspended disbelief. We go on. So Hess and his mate, they arrive and they start dancing. They've got some mad skills and the handful of guests that are there sort of encouraged this dancing. One of the women takes an interest in Hess. That's important and they start making out in the kitchen but she stops before it gets to proper sexy times and she says, "I'm gonna take a shower." And here we get some full frontal nudity again but she rebuffs him again. Meanwhile, the card game downstairs is starting to get out of hand and who's playing cards but it's Ricky Hess's mate. When Hess returns, he starts boxing them. Crunchy punch punch and at 30 minutes in, we get the line. Now we're gonna have some fun with these cuts. Part of my language. He cuts one of the fellas face with a razor. He kicks another one into the pool and then pisses on the guy as he tries to get out and he encourages his mate Ricky to get raping. But Ricky isn't that keen and that is because the lady is not into it, oddly. This upsets Hess, of course. And in the melee, one of the women escapes and turns off the lights and the other guests are spread out around a little bit. Hess then catches the light turner off a woman and then he beats up that good looking fella who he cut earlier, beats him to a bloody pulp by smashing his head on a coffee table. This guy now has a broken nose and as I mentioned in the intro, he's called Tom played by Christian Baromio. At this point, I wonder, how is he still conscious? But Hess isn't finished, he's nowhere finished so he orders the shower woman to get naked and then he gets naked and then he has sex with her. And she seems genuinely chuffed with the way this is all turning out and the music is all romantic again. And at this point, it appears oddly consensual. As I say, this film is giving me some really strange messages and it gets weirder still. When Hess says to where you should be getting off with the other women, she begins to oblige. But then the doorbell rings. (upbeat music) Enter Cindy. So once she's tricked into the property, Hess then uses his switchblade to cut apart Cindy's clothes. He then slashes her up with the blade and it's really graphic and it's really, really hard to watch. Now, whilst all this is going on, one of the women that tried to escape seems to be happily getting it on with Hess's mate in the garden. And I really hope at this point, as I'm watching it, that she's tricking him. A few minutes in and it's still going on and she's mega into it. She's not tricking him. And Ricky is now, I've infatuated with this woman because obviously she's letting him touch her and I'm still thinking, well, maybe she's just doing this to get him on side sort of thing. And that is really what happens. He asks Alex to call it and just leave and he tries to make Alex stop, he does. But Alex just stabs him with the blade. Ricky, why did you make me do it? Now, of course, that is what Hess playing Alex is going to say because that's just his character. Blame someone else. At that point, Christian Baromio's character, Tom, he gets into the draw that he tried to reach earlier and actually it was a setup that he was reaching for something earlier and couldn't get it. And now it all makes sense because he pulls out a gun and it all comes back. That woman in the beginning scene was his sister and it was all a ruse. This whole thing was a ruse and they shoot Hess in the cock. This movie has gone from a four out of 10 to a seven out of 10 in a matter of seconds. And it was obvious, but it lands with such joy, such momentous sense of occasion when he falls into the pool. He's barely alive and yet he gets shot again and that's it, there you have it. That is the story, a house on the edge of the park. Major than a rose, God, you are my lover. Never love you, bring me. So sweetly, oh sweetly, sing in light ♪ And angel I see you smiling ♪ ♪ Close your eyes and dream again ♪ So that was some of the score by Riz Ortellaney. And that was the same fellow that scored that spellbinding cannibal Holocaust soundtrack. And whilst it is very interesting, of course it is, just to play some of those same cards that he did with Holocaust, this movie carries a different sort of weight to it than that film. I don't know how wise it is to just soundtrack a horrible scene in front of your eyes with this pretty score and have that juxtaposition work without justification. And in cannibal Holocaust, we're just flying over the jungle. That music is key for the viewer. It's a beautiful landscape. Its history is incredibly rich. It is breathtaking to look at. It's a beautiful green canopy and it is dangerous as all hell. That's the feeling that you get from that. But here, David Hess, he is just dangerous as all hell. Maybe that revenge and the plan to enact that revenge is the beautiful thing here. But that is a stretch I reckon. Of course this is competent and it is almost as memorable as the one before it with cannibal Holocaust. But holy, if this thing is just unsuccessful, it doesn't soundtrack the movie for me in the way that does the film any favours. Now, I don't need music to hold my hand and it would be cool if it just reflected a little bit of what I was seeing on the screen. So that's the music. I've slagged it. I'm very sorry. We'll move on. But I would say this. Should House on the Edge of the Park be a video nasty? And I have to say, yeah. In comparison to the other movies on this list, this is way up there with that vile treatment against man from their fellow man. And especially man against women. It is a truly difficult watch at times and I have to admit to being super relieved when that ending actually came in as a decent result for all the characters on the screen at that time. As well as for me as a viewer. Can I recommend it if you've yet to see it? Again, yeah. I think "Last House" on the left is a bit of film and it's a darker film as well. So if you like that one, then this is a decent supplement to it. But it doesn't have that same gravitas if you ask me. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] I think the argument about books is very interesting because if you watch that film and you watch the kids going into the video shop, my mind was saying, ah, that's a pity because it's obviously going to be library's next because kids can walk into libraries. I'm going to take the point of the young lady with the blonde there, that one of you called the young lady. The bit about male aggression is quite right. I was talking to a couple of lads. I live in Hackney, right? Pause Barren, the country, the right business, that's nothing to do with it too much. But they're glad to go to the local church youth club and I was talking to them about this because I was coming on telling all that. And I spoke to one of them about a video film we'd seen. I'd call it a nasty, OK, whatever people call it. It was sexually explicit. And the poor young lady in it, although she probably wasn't poor, she hurt a few bob out of it. She was attacked, et cetera. And he said, what's wrong with it? I said, what is wrong with it? He said, when you go out and get married, if you do get married, would you then want to consider doing those things to your wife? He said, well, yeah, why not? Now, all right, it's another isolated instance, OK. We talked about the folk early on on the film about, well, who's got all these figures bandied about? We get down to the boss, tax folk working in-- chat the entire family, so that. They must have heard of consequences like this. I mean, a local rag, the hatty, because it's full of-- we're not full of it. But if you have a wait, there's horrible stories in it. I don't care too much about all the polo and two stuff. It's a little bit above me, blew me. And when he gets down to mallegration, I agree with you. And how do you deal with it? I hope you would be thankful if you were going to be attacked because someone was watching that sort of stuff. But at least there was something to help me. [MUSIC PLAYING] And what could possibly be better than the house on the edge of the park, I hear you ask. That's what you're asking. Well, it's a film that I've got no idea why it's actually on the list. It's "Tenerbrae" from 1982 with the tagline "Terra Beyond Belief." And talking with me about it is the living legend that is Brad Hanson. Yeah, Bradley Hanson, film critic and regular on Evolution horror podcast, and also now the co-host of his own podcast called "X Rental," where he covers 90s genre stuff that came out on VHS and DVD at a time. That time being the 90s, the format being VHS and DVD, and the show being X Rental. So yeah, Brad, me, are "Gento Tenerbrae." [MUSIC PLAYING] Right. So what do we have here? Well, we've got "The Black Glove." It's a yellow classic. I didn't notice any J&B whiskey, which I'm probably gutted about. It's got to be there, right? So we'll watch it again just so I can find it. I think we're going to have to have an upcoming J&B episode. At this point, "Tenerbrae" was coming off the back of "Inferno," which wasn't a particularly successful film. And in this, I love that the critic is having to go at our hero, author Peter Neil, who some would say is just a stand-in for everyone that was criticizing our "Gento" at the time for being a woman-hating misogynist and someone that just loves to glamorize violence. One thing, though, that I'm not completely on board with, that I'm not just that sure about, is that this thing looks really 1980s, from the clothes, the hairstyles, all the set decor. It's really a product of its time. But that conservative, almost drab-looking '80s that really did exist, I was there. It's all over this film. And this, from a man that directed that dazzling, eye-shaggery of Suspiria, it comes as quite the shock when you watch it for the first time. Back on the plus side, though, Daria and Nickelodey turns up after 15 minutes and she looks incredible. I love her very much. She plays Anne, the assistant in this one, and although she doesn't seem to be very into it, maybe that's because in real life, her and Daria were in a relationship for 11 years, maybe that's enough. He does seem like hard work. As for the video, nasty side of things. Well, in the UK, this was originally passed with cuts for the cinema, and then it was released with five seconds cut out of it in 1999. And finally, it was uncut and re-released in 2003. And as I previously mentioned, here is the fantabulous Brad Hanson. Back on the show to discuss one of his heroes and his heroes, Art. This is Brad and myself discussing our gentoes, Tenebrae. It was late November, 2022. Captain Jeremiah, how is that? They both deals with a murder committed with an old-fashioned open razor. I wish I'd never written that book. Welcome back to the podcast, Brad. It's an absolute pleasure to be with that, Paul. I really want people that were like me two years ago to not be like me two years ago and get into this Italian shit, because it's changed the way I look at movies and the way I watch movies, and I get genuinely excited when I pull out a year. And there's a couple of Italian ones in there. I've yet to go to our gentoes later career, but I know you've warned people of it before, but still say, you know, well, it's still our genome. But Dracula, there are limits to where you should go with Argento, and they begin an end of Dracula 3D. But isn't it? I've got it. And it's like, I'm going to... It's like watching the girl that you've had the biggest crush on your life. Oh, shit herself on stage for no reason. No one asked her to do it, but she did it. She went on stage and she pooed herself. And now the way you look at her, it's not completely gone, because obviously you love her. But at the same time, did she pounce on stage, aren't you? So, you said that you are very happy now that if he pops his clogs, at least he's not going to end with that sort of stuff, and he can end with dark glasses. Yeah, dark glasses is not revelatory in any way, but it's by far and away much better than Dracula. So we'll take that. Small victories. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it, so I was thinking the worst, but only because you'd set me up to think the worst. I've got more of that manager and expectations. We're talking about Tenabre today, and this is the first time that I've had you on Patreon. So glad to have you on this to talk about video nasties. And when I saw that Tenabre, a film that I'd already seen when I realized I was going to be doing it for this sort of selection, when I saw it was on the list, I was like, "What?" And I rewatched it, and I've rewatched it again. I still don't get it, but we'll still tackle it. What's your history with those video nasties? Was it something that you ever got into that you wanted to explore? Big time. Yeah, they were something that really fascinated me. I think I don't do well with authority, as I'm sure you could probably imagine. And I don't like being told what I can and cannot do. And there was something, although they didn't directly affect me, because I was a child when they were happening, and all the seizures were occurring. There's something so fascinating about that kind of moral majority, where this woman, this cult of personality, almost cultly to like psych if I have to marry White House, kind of like, gastly a nation into thinking that the root of all evil wasn't immigrant stealing your jobs. And it wasn't bloody upper crusts looking down at us like chimney sweeps. It was, in fact, German exploitation movies about nasties. That was the thing that was causing society to go to the dogs in the early '80s. I just found it fascinating. So it was my job when I was getting into horror to like seek them out, especially because back then, like 15, 20 years ago, it was odd. Now it's easy. Like, you can just go and watch them all and go on fucking rob, begoo, and torrent the shit out of all 30. But back in the day, I was importing stuff from USA, because that was the only place you'd get it, getting weird moody German releases, just to see some shit. I've had people look on it, like the amount of hundreds of pounds they paid, like, to get these fucking, like, SS extension camera. And they watch it when they're so shit. They're really bad. Oh, yeah. It's just a few clicks away now. I mean, there's still a couple I've struggled to find, but now I've got my sort of, um... A Patreon money running, and now you just fucking breeze it around, spy them, like, I don't mean anything like that. Why do you think they picked on the Italian ones, so particularly badly? I've written a list of them. So it's just mad. It's like, Fauci is in there with house by the cemetery, and zombie flesh eaters. You've got Barver with Bay of Blood, Diadato, which I think is fair enough with House at the Edge of the Park, and Cannibal Holocaust. Lindsay Berrocks, you've got Joe DiMato, he's got two, he's got absurd, anthropicus, and then one director that I'm not very familiar with, Margaretti, with Cannibal Pocalypse, which I enjoyed. I really enjoyed that film, but let them all over the shop. There's only 38. Like, why is this? What were Italians doing? The big Italian contingent, um... I mean, they had this beautiful, like, this wonderful kind of operatic way of killing people, um, arterial spurts and kind of a real understanding of the things that get under your skin when it comes to hurting people. Fingers, eyes, elements of your body where you're like, "I know tangibly that that wouldn't be nice." I don't know what it feels like to get stabbed, like, in the side or chest, I don't know. But I do know, I've stubbed my toe, and I don't like it. And I do know, I've accidentally poked myself in the eye, and I don't like that either. So, I think their stuff was so much more lurid, and also so ethereal, so dreamlike in its, um, in its violence and how, as I say, operatic it was, that I think it does, when you compare it to what was going on in, you know, in front of the 13th part two, similar, but there's such a revelry in the kind of arterial spurts, especially in something like Tenon Ray, which is offset, so much against sort of white walls, white-wheeled walls and bloodied women. It was over a book. That's what I'd called it. Because all it is, all it is is, hello, I'm a woman, and there's white around, and I'm going to do my blood on all over it. It would not be a very good book, as I've just explained there. - Hello, I'm woman here, do blood. - I'd buy it, I'd read that. I found the very final scene, like she's just screaming, and it's so, like, how awful and so, like, fuck me, shut up. Like, that's enough to, like, maybe put it in there, 'cause God knows what they're actually using as their criteria, but it's, it's mad, like, how far this film goes, in its tiny little places where it does go there. You could argue there is rightfully evil shit like SX-X experiment camp that belongs, not, I don't think any film should be banned, but I understand, I can get behind. Tenenbray, it's not even like the worst Argento, like, that was the problem with this list, is there's no consistency, 'cause there was other stuff that was allowed to get away with it, where I'm like, that's bad, like, why is that? But then like, evil dead was like getting considered in there as well, and you didn't quite make it, you got into the next chapter of them. - Yeah, the next year. - Of like the 72, the DPP, and there's no consistency. I don't understand it, but I think sometimes it's just, because you have to, someone like Mary Whitehouse, obviously, was not watching all of these, she never actually watched any of them. Someone challenged her and was like, what do you think of, yeah, you've seen them, what do you think? And she's like, I've not seen any of them, I just know they're evil. And it's like, okay. - Yeah, that video, that VHS rip that someone put on YouTube where she says that, man, it just, it makes me cry. Like, what, sorry? - But I mean, we still see it today with politicians, taking moral umbrage against things, they have no idea about. So, it's not a new concept, but it's a frustrating one, but clearly there was someone, I mean, that's how we formed the kind of BBFC, right? - Right. - That's how that became to be. So, someone had to start watching stuff and you know, there's been some interesting, the BBFC themselves are an interesting bunch in themselves 'cause they are, once again, moral majority tastemakers that are like, mmm, that's a bit naughty. - I like, there was a, one of the papers, I think, the Sunday Express in 2008, really tried to stir up the shit up again. I was really into it and the BBFC just stopped to it right there, there and then, and just said look, you're talking witchcraft, it's not relevant in any way. And they shut it down, I was so happy about that, the flip a few years can make. - Yeah. - I mean, people have still got beef with the BBFC, there was a film I called, I think Charlie Shackleton, forgive me if that's a slightly misrepresentation of the facts. But as a fuck you to the BBFC, he submitted a film for their consideration, and when they view a film, they have to watch every inch of it up down supplemental materials. And he submitted a film called Paint Drawing, where someone had to watch 10 hours of paint drawing. - What was the rating? - E, right, everyone. - Oh man, Arrow, come on, get on that. - Get on that special edition, accept a cut, get it on. - Okay, all right, obviously mentioned Argento. And he's the reason why I've got you on today. I know you're a huge fan. What is it that pulls you into this guy's films, and this guy's work? And it's not just Henebrae. There's something about it that does something for you. He's like your rock star, right? What is it? - I just think that he is a man that makes films. I'm not saying that he's singular in his vision. I think there are people that, before him and after him, have been similar in the way that they present films, but he presents these kind of lurid nightmares in a sort of both beautifully lens sonically scored and kind of intensely violent morality plays that kind of started in this kind of crime route, this whodunit, this Agatha Christie-esque, and then kind of, in the middle of the 80s, kind of amalgamated and shifted into this kind of like supernatural maelstrom of sort of chaos and sexuality and violence and carnality. And then in the '90s, he kind of, even when he's objectively bad, he's still good because he just got this unique style and voice where I don't think any of his films are particularly well written, any of them, but they're all indelibly watchable because of how intensely bizarre and beautiful and macabre they can be. - I would never have put it like that, but you're exactly right. They're so Moorish. I started this podcast, not knowing anything about it, and he was one of the first people I visited because I was excited, so I went to the early jello stuff. I was giving them one and two out of 10. I just like, this is shit, this is not for me. Why has this got the reputation? When I now journey back to those, my arrow blue rays that I've got behind me, I'm like, oh my word, this one is so good, and then I watch it again, and it's like, oh, it's even better. And I do find it, that word Moorish, I can't describe as to why, although I'm starting to now learn the faces of his repeat actors and actresses, and I love them. And when they're on the screen, I get excited. I love the color palettes he used. I love the, there's just the flare of his shots that he wants to try and get in. He's just thinking at certain points so far out of the box that how does this stuff land? I don't know, even in Tenebrae, you've got that insane shot outside of the building. That traverses the entire house. It's just mad, like, what are you thinking? Why is it mad? The first time I saw it, I couldn't believe it. Like, I was like, this is one shot, like how's, and like, apparently it was a fucking nightmare to shoot that shot, as you can imagine, 'cause it was 1981 at the time, and they're trying to do these complex routines of being on the roof, and then they go through windows, and you're just like, how, and like, the thing is that that shot doesn't really add anything to the story. It doesn't progress the story. You don't really learn much from that shot, but the fact that he does that shot, it's arguably the most probably the most famous thing in Tenebrae still, is that shot, because he dained to do it, 'cause he was like, I'll just fucking do it, 'cause I want to. - Well, just 'cause people are gonna be talking about it for years and years and years. Like, I saw on some extras on opera, like, how they did the crow shot, as it's flying down, flying down, flying up. And he was shooting guns, like, off into the auditorium. - To create panic. - My fucking god, it was incredible to watch, and like, as soon as I was watching that scene, I was getting tingles watching it. How did you do this? I need to find out how this was done. No one gives me tingles anymore when I'm watching a film. I got so excited. Like, I think, I can't describe it as well as you, but I hope it comes across how exciting this filmmaker is to me when I'm just discovering him now. - Well, the best way, am I gonna coin this from Lily? 'Cause I've shown Lily a lot over the last 18 months of our relationship. A lot of our gentle, I held on to, she's fine. We were holding on to Suspiria until I knew she had had the film vocabulary of what Argento is. I didn't wanna show us Suspiria's show, 'cause I think, even though I think it's still his best film, it's still, you need to get on board with Argento and get on board with, as she calls it now, which is where I'm getting to with this, the vibes. Well, he's got vibes. And I showed us Suspiria during spooky season this year, and she loved it, and that's great. And I'm really happy, so that has a dumper. It's just a lot of admin. I'm not going back to single life again, but I won't do it. I won't do it for the female population of Southeast London. It's not fair on them. I can't do it to them. - Shit, okay. Argento exhibition in Chew-In. - Yes. - You were there. It's actually gonna stop running on the 16th of Jan. If you're there, or if you're gonna be going there, I think there's tickets left that went on last night and had a look. But tell me about your visit, like, what was this like? I just, so you know, I went to the Kubrick one in London a few years back. - I went there. - Yeah, I went there. - I was blown away. Was this anything like that? - Good stuff. - Yes and no, I really liked the Kubrick one, because it was actually pretty in depth. But they are, I mean, they are quite similar in terms of the fact that you go through kind of a path of a Argento's entire career. But it's set around the kind of inner workings of the museum itself. So you go up in a sort of almost a spiral staircase, about a wide staircase and the exhibition is on the outer rim of this spiraling staircase that can lead you up to the top of. And through the middle of it is this large elevator that sort of goes up and through the exhibition and then through to the roof. And it's one of the big things that you do in Turin is the Marlon Donella, a sort of elevator thing where you go up to, it's basically like London eyes equivalent or whatever. - Right. - But it's inside there and you start at the bottom and you look at, you start a bird with a crystal plumage and you go all the way through, all the way up to dark glasses with some side stuff and it's stuff you produce and some of the music stuff. And when you get towards the top and there's props and exhibition pieces from, so that can be the shooting script or it could be props itself of like the dull from deep red or the rays of light from this, from Tenemara. And it just gives you like a little bit of effort. So as soon as it got announced, I think within, so it got announced in February of this year, that it was happening and it started in, got announced in January and it started in March. And I found out and when tweeted out, well, I guess I'm going to Turin and then two weeks later, I booked everything and I was going to Turin and I got there the week after it opened. Of course, Alan Jones couldn't let me have a fucking win. Had to beat me there by three days, but whatever, it's fine. Got it. I'm not upset, I'm really upset. I'm really annoyed. I really wanted to beat Jonesy out there, but he beat me to it. But yeah, I can't recommend it enough. And also Turin itself, I mean, has become, is such a shooting location for Argento film. So I went and sat at the fountains where David Heming sits in deep red. I went to the house of Captain Ninetales. It's all in Turin, the yellow house from deep red that he goes to visits. That's up in the hills of Turin. So not only do you go and do the exhibition itself, there's so many like film locations that Dario has shot in Turin and really good food, really good ice cream, really good coffee, like lots of cinema culture, loads of cinemas in general. It's well worth a trip. I would never have thought of going there. It's, I always thought that these films were filmed in and around Rome. Everyone always thinks Rome. I would say 70% of Dario's stuff is filmed in Turin. He loved, like the reason it, the film is, the reason that the whole thing is in Turin is because Dario loves Turin. And I get it, when you go to the city, you'll, if you go or if you have been, you'll know what I mean. It in itself has a quite a distinct vibe. It's pretty cool. - Totally jealous. - Totally jealous. And I know, and the reason it, I know that I won't be going before it finishes. Man, so jealous of you. And I'll say that Kubrick one, again, it's one of those things that I'll never forget for the rest of my life. - Yeah, it was pretty fun. I'm gonna want a date to that. Back in single brand days. - That's so weird. - Took a date. - It's like darling. Do you want to go to the Kubrick museum, will you? Not where they're now, so they didn't go well. Okay, I can't, I can't, I can't. - It was a liddie. - Right, okay, back to Tenebrae. - Yes, now. - So without spoiling it, I want to sell this to someone that hasn't seen it. I think we both agree this. If any film should not be on the list, I think it's this one. And for me, evil speakers, well, I don't think like, what the fuck is that doing on there? - Yeah. - What would you say, like, this is a key scene. Keep your eye out, apart from what we've already mentioned. - I mean, the thing is what we've already mentioned is probably the answer, the scene with Tilda and her love and marrying. They, she comes home and, you know, she forgets how to wear a towel. And, you know, with a towel, you normally cover breasts, I've heard. Not this one, just midriffed, just cover that. And they argue, and we see the kind of argument play out and then Tilda's kind of straight one like, "Oh, I'm harlot sleeping with people." She goes off, I mean, well, she's showering upstairs and we have this wonderful tracking shot that we've spoken about, which is honestly a technical marvel. And we see Tilda and she's placing on her shirt and then from the moment Tilda places her shirt, I think encapsulates everything that, from what happens when her shirt goes over her head to how that scene ends is, I think, indicative, not only of Tenembra itself, but also of Argento of the kind of operatic nightmares that he makes, I think is a really fine example. I obviously don't wanna go to spoilers, but it's such an iconic image and the reveal, which I can't go into before, but it's such a well-constructed scene of like tension, violence and bloodletting. Like, it's just so, it's just perfect. Like, I just love the way it all unfolds. It's a very skillfully produced scene. - And at that point, of course, I'm figuring, trying to figure out, like, and I think I've got a grasp on like the who-donner aspect of this film. - You never get it. - Never. - I've seen it like four times and I'll always forget. I'm like, "Fuck." - Yeah. - I think. - Yeah, yeah. One last question about it before we move on to the next film, Brad. Like, this I got from the commentary on the disc, I'm sure you already know, but Christopher Walken was Dario's first choice as the lead in this. How do you think that would have went? - Infinitely better. Like, I think I did not expect it to say that. - Fair, like, "Oh, man, I fucking love Crystal Walken." You know, can you imagine him? - Me. - I'm not a writer, huh? I've got an oven to do with it. I can't really do it. I'm walking. I was like, "Now's your chance." They started going, "All right." And then I got a bit too big. I was like, "That doesn't sound too, but oh, no, it's bad." - Correct. - No, but I mean, we got a little Johnny Saxon in there being the boy, as usual. I love a bit of Johnny. I never Johnny Saxon turns up in anything, including Cannonball Apocalypse. - Yep. - I'm always happy to see him, but, you know, the guy that plays Peter Neill is fine, he's cool, but imagine how mad Walken would have been with it, right? Especially '80s Walken, '80s Walken is a good Walken. - '82 Prime Walken. - Prime Walken. - We're talking Dead Zone Walken. - Yeah. - This would be amazing. - It would have been so good. But, you know, we've got the Peter Neill with it we've got, and he's great, but Walken would have been sick, yeah. What about sick? - Well, Brad, thank you for coming on Patreon. Appreciate that, mate. - It's a pleasure. Keep supporting my boy Waller. He's got a conservatory to build. (laughing) To fill with more arrow releases. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Many thanks to Brad Hanson for coming on to the Patreon channel to discuss this actually properly decent film, Dario Argento's Tenebrae. Now, before we go, I just wanna mention that this soundtrack is amazing. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) So this soundtrack is by most of Goblin. So yet they're back to score this thing. And the title cut here is perhaps one of the greatest openers to any horror movie ever. It's a funky electronica-fueled prog thing and it is essential. The rest of the soundtrack doesn't quite hit those same heights, but it's still pretty cool. You have a bit of a patchy listen. And thankfully, it is all on Spotify as well. Therefore readily available for all to hear. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - I agree with you in the designation of the problem. What I don't agree with is the kind of solution. I mean, I don't agree with how the bill is designating the problem. As far as the bill is concerned, the problem is just violence per se. I don't think violence is a problem per se. What I think is a problem about violence is the meanings that surround a particular act of violence. And it seems to me in this culture, the meanings that surround violence that we see are almost invariably meanings that say that this is a natural form of male behavior. However, I'm absolutely convinced by the arguments of the side opposing the bill, that what this ill is doing is actually completely, is introducing a form of censorship, which is actually extremely dangerous. I don't think you tackle the problem of male violence in this way. You tackle it entirely differently. You tackle it-- - Be that right or wrong. Might it be too late one time for say you and I hope it isn't, but you know, something's got to be done. - Well, this bill is not about male violence incident. - No, nobody helps. (upbeat music) - And one place above Tenabray. It is the 1974 undercard, The Cannibal Man, aka The Week of the Killer. It's a chat with effects artist and arrow video podcast co-host, Dan Martin. So strap in, we're about to get proper sweaty. (upbeat music) - Cannibal Man. Well, a couple of days before I'd seen this one, I'd just seen Cannibal Holocaust for the first time. And then I'd dived head first into Cannibal Fairock. So it was all getting a bit too much when I put this on. So I turn this off and then I read up a little on the film and I read about the director who appears to be this really interesting character. He's named Eloy Dela Iglesia. He is an outspoken gay Spanish socialist behind the camera, would you believe? So a day later, I decided to go back to it because that really intrigued me. I skipped past all the animal cruelty stuff and guess what? This one had a very, very fluid feel about it. At its heart, its elements are of a slasher film, but the escalation of those kills play out in a really clever way to the point where, well, it's not actually about a killer at all. Well, it is, it's a difficult one to explain. It's actually a mad good movie and definitely worth your time. And I have to mention that Fernando Gacia Morecillo, well, he delivers a very odd ball in a left field killer, killer score for this one as well. It's quite brilliant. And I would say, watch this film before you head any further into the podcast and give you want it to be completely spoiler free. I don't think it matters too much, knowing what's gonna go on before you go into it, but it might do. Done, done, done, done. Here we go. (dramatic music) (dramatic music) So what we have with "Cannibal Man" is a film that revels in the art of escalation. Marcos is played by Vicente Para and he panics when he realizes that he has to make a quick choice. He decides to kill his girlfriend rather than have the hassle of navigating a police visit and a police visit, of course, would potentially have ramifications of their killing. He is poor and he knows that he's not gonna be seen sympathetically. So he just makes that choice. Then he meets up with his brother and he's honest with his brother and true to form his brother wants him to turn himself in. And at this point, you can see he's considering it for just a moment, just the moment he considers going to the police, but that's it. He decides not to and then kills his brother. Then, would you believe it? His brother's fiancee turns up looking for him and she ends up dead having her throat slit. Then, of course, in turn, her dad turns up and by this point, this thing's becoming a bit of a fast. So he offers the dad as well. Then finally, a waitress at the cafe named Rosa, who is fantastic in this film. I just wanna say check out Rosa. Well, she finally goes around to Marco's place. Goes there for a booty call, but she makes the mistake. She should never have gone there. There is a weird smell in there and the blood on the wall and the cleaver that she spots. And she sees that wrench as well, all been used as previous weapons. She spots it, he's a wrong one, but it's too late for us. She cannot get out and he bashes her head against the wall until she is dead. Now, Rubble, artigo. He is a cinematographer and he truly goes the extra mile with this one, the barren positioning of the shack that Marcos lives in, set against that glum-looking sky and the oppressive heat. It makes that run-down dwelling just look majestic to my eyes. Regardless of what's going on inside it, if an Airbnb came up and it was that, I'd just be stoked. Even when we focus simply just on Marcos's face, just for an establishing shot, it is immaculately dressed, which is dripping with sweat. And that's just one of the opening scenes. Nothing is left to chance. This thing is impressive. There is so much to this movie. So yeah, to our conversation with Dan Martin all about it. Of course, I was super happy when I booked in this chat with Dan Martin. He was first on a show back in June, 2021. We spoke in depth about the skin I live in for the 2011 "Big Heater" episode. You can find him on the social medias. If you type in anywhere, 13 finger effects, or one word, 13, the numbers, finger, effects. He's on most of them anyway. And to me, well, this guy is my rock star. He's a very humble rock star at that, let me tell you. A three-time award-winning effects artist is one two-fangory and chainsaw rewards, one for possessor and one for color out of space, plus he recently won the British Independent Film Award for the effects on dash cam. He's also worked on a bunch of incredible films that I call my favorites, among them being a field in England, host, Lords of Chaos, a wounded fawn, a banquet and sensor and in the earth. And of course, my absolute flipping favorite human centipede, too. This is Dan Martin and myself talking all about Cannibal Man. - I always give my family the best food that I can find. That's why I give them a flurry soup. - Because flurry soup's happy. - The flavor of good rich meat. - Hey Marcus, can you help me work? The chief wants to send you his office. - The flavor of good rich meat. - He knows. Maybe it's a better job. ♪ You'll be bloody ♪ - Marcus, what hard work? - Would you read it all? - Well, there was something. A man died. There's pictures of the people. Mine, let's not start here. Let's go for it, come on. - I'm afraid, Marcus. - Afraid of what? - I'm sure they'll find out it was us. - Nobody. ♪ - It's easy to be afraid, and I should know. - I don't tell you you had a real woman, not a child. I could teach you some things. - Rosa, we've got other customers to serve. - There isn't much to see. Plasters falling down, walls are damned with their dirty. - Nobody will find out. - I believe that. - Welcome back, Dan. This one is a movie that's, I'm like the last one, so we just talked about nightmare and damage brain. Now, I think that with that one, it's a little bit clunky around the edges, but there is so much to take from it. It's such a worthwhile watch. Whereas this one, I don't think there's clunkiness about it. I just think it's an incredible film front to back. What's your history with "Cannibal Man"? - I mean, "Cannibal Man", like "Nightman's and damage brain", it was on "The Narcissist" there, so it was already on my radar. I had "Cannibal" in the title, so obviously I was going to watch it. It's not a fucking cannibal film. Get that out of the oven early on, early doors. But I think it's, you know, when you stumble across a film that you don't appreciate properly in its first iteration, when you first watch it. And it's only when you're older, maybe you've lived a little bit more, you've seen more of life, you understand more sort of contextual subtext of something. My relationship with "Cannibal Man" is very much that. I enjoyed it when I first watched it, but I didn't get it. And then later, I watched it and I got it. And then later, the longer version, the original "The Week of the Killer" print got released, and I watched it again, and it all made sense. But by that time, I'd seen more of Iglesia's work. I understood more of the context around him. I remember being in Mumbai, working on "Other Side of the Door" with Javier Botett, and we would spend most evenings in this very lavish gin bar in the hotel that we were staying in. They're talking about horror films, Joron and cinema, all that kind of stuff. And I mentioned "Cannibal Man" and he said, "Oh, no, I don't know that one." I said, "Oh, it's a Spanish horror from the early '70s. I really like it." I mean, it says it's a "Cannibal" movie, but it's not a "Cannibal" movie. It's much more classy than that. It's quite post-modern in its cinema styles. He was like, "Oh, it sounds really good." Who directed it? And they said, "Oh, it's directed by Ilo de la Iglesia." And he was like, "Oh, fuck, really?" So he knew Ilo de la Iglesia for his post-Franco output, where he was dealing with drug addiction, homosexuality, crime in Spain, like this sort of almost guignalesque depictions of society. Whereas "I" at the time was much more familiar with his quasi-geala, like no one heard the scream, glass ceiling, "Cannibal Man," like all these movies, which I loved. And so it was really interesting to sort of like have those two sides of his... of Iglesia's filmography, because he was an incredibly like, prolific director. He made more than a film a year for like 20 years. But neither of us were aware of the other side of the output at that point. And so we had a lovely evening, sort of like recommending pictures to each other. Oh, wow. And Severn, who recently put out the long version of "Cannibal Man," have put out a bunch of other Iglesia stuff, including "No One Heard the Screams" as well. Which again, I think if I'd seen as a teenager, would have bored me. But now, watching it, I absolutely love it. So for me, pretty similar in a way, but in a different way, because I'm a vegan. So the full cause on the table, I've only recently, after two decades of being scared of it, watched "Cannibal Holocaust." I just didn't want to get involved. When I watched it, I was absolutely blown away. But I couldn't watch anything else for a couple of days. It really affected me. So my next step, a few days later, was right, I'm going to pop this one on. And I didn't expect what I got at the beginning. Yeah, it's quite aggressive in that sense. Like, I, so obviously, you know, rest in peace, regero, that's a great loss. I think "Cannibal Holocaust" is possibly the best film on the nasty list. I think it's an absolute masterpiece. I think that his attempt to release a retroactive director's cup without the animal death in it, kind of misses the point of his own work, is you're not going to unkill those animals, regero. Like, it's fucked. I'm not vegan, but I am a vegetarian. And I, yeah, I don't believe any animal should die for a film. Like any animal should die for a film. The stuff in "Cannibal Man" smacks of the work-a-day footage of a slaughterhouse. Like, I think that that is like as close to stock footage as you could kind of get in that era. Yeah, I mean, this is very fucking hard to watch. Yeah, it's very hard to watch. So this is, yeah, what's this, six years before Holocaust? But like, even with Holocaust, the claim is, and I'd like to believe that this is true, the claim is that those animals were at least still eaten. Like, that was genuine. You know, that was, yeah, nothing went to waste. Whether or not, like, you know, you can pair Holocaust to pharaohs. There's a million miles between the validity of what's going on in those movies. I've still fucking, I still own copies of "Cannibal Verebs." Like, you know- Another one I loved. Yeah, I mean, it's that's much less excusable, I think, as far as the animal content goes. Sure. Um, and it's weird. Like, and I'm sort of being a third-party hypocrite in that I don't feel like Diadato should be allowed to say, "Oh, well, this is the director's cut now without all the fucking animal death. You don't have to watch the monkey getting killed or the turtle getting killed or, you know, whatever it is." Because now it's a, like, socially unacceptable. So I'm, I don't want that blame. So I'm going to cut that out of the movie. I don't feel he should be allowed to do that, but I do think that that version should be included on the disc so that you have the choice to watch it without. I think that the audience should be allowed to watch it without. That said, I think that the first watch should always be the full version. Like, I've seen Captain of a Holocaust like a dozen times now, and I'll very happily watch a version without the animal killing it. Because I don't need to see that, and it's still a great film, and it does still work without it. But it is about the barbarism of the supposed west, and it's an extra layer of meta to have that within that movie. And I, and actually, and it's much more apparent in the longer version of Cannibal Man, the weak of the killer edit. But that machine, like, factory-line slaughter, you know, you've got to think about when this was made. This is 72, this is right at the end of Frankless presidency. The militarized police are still present. A lot of the extra footage, it's not gore. This was stuff that was cut out by the distributors who wanted to make it more salacious. They re-titled it Cannibal Man, because they wanted people to be, oh, yeah, Cannibals. Gosh, I can watch that. So they re-titled it Cannibal Man. They cut out loads of, like, weird, pro-union, anti-government, anti-fascist stuff. Where, like, there's this amazing, I don't know if you've seen the longer version. I haven't, I haven't. There's an incredible scene. So you know how the main character gets that, like, small promotion, where he's given access to the new machine. So he works in, for the listeners who haven't seen it, he works in a factory that renders down animal carcasses. So it's an adjunct to a slaughterhouse. So he works, this big company, they're a soup company, ostensibly. Think of them as Mrs. McGinn's pie shop, but unwittingly. He worked there. They slaughtered a cattle, they turned them into soup. And he's given this opportunity, he's promoted, and he's now shoveling offal into a big mechanical rendering machine that will break it down into goo, into fluid, that will then get turned into soup. Because who fucking cares about soup? Soup. Dog food for people. So he's given this opportunity. In the director's cut, in the long version, when he's first, like, shown how to do the machine, A, there's this really weird moment where he's shown how simple the machine is. I do air quotes around simple, where it's like, turn this down, then turn this down, then shovel some stuff in here, then close it, then turn this down, which felt almost like a sort of Norman wisdom routine. But then, on top of that, the guy who's giving him the lecture is like, "Hey, you're what's the name, son?" And he's like, "Yeah, yeah." And he says, "Oh, she worked here. I was here the day she burnt to death." And then, he proceeds to tell this really gruesome story about the death of this guy's mother, which contains two really important lines. The first line, or second chronologically, the second one, which is for comic relief, is, "And the whole factory stank of your mother for two weeks after his mother burns to death." But then, the other line is, thank goodness she didn't, he says, "Oh, she touched a barrel, and that went up in flames, and she touched a shelf, and it looked like it had been in an inferno." Thank goodness she didn't get to the acid vats, because the entire factory would have gone. And it becomes apparent that this guy cares so little for the workers, and cares only for the productivity of the factory, which is very much a representation of Franco's, like, violent quashing of workers' organization and unionist action. So, this film has at its core this idea of, like, you've got the slaughterhouse, you've got the mechanization of death, you've got the main character's numbness to the death, even not only just of these cattle, but of the death of his own mother, as he listens to this story with a very blank look on his face. But you've also got, like, the disposability of the workforce, you've got the disposability of the old way, his, like, slum shack lives in the shadow of this new apartment, which figuratively and literally looks down upon him and where he lives, which ends up being, like, a pivotal moment in the narrative, the physical viewpoints that this new, like, block of flats has. So it's a really interesting, like, social-political, like, examination, but also always operating within the very heavy censorship of the Franco-era cinema. So it's such a, and then add on to the top of that, this really interesting post-modernist, like, sort of, death-laden egg-esque, foot-it, like, cinematic style with the jarring, like, zoom-outs and the inter-cuttings, like, there's that, in that second killing, not the taxi driver, but the second one, there's that amazing cut to that painting, and then, like, a hard pan over to her face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, almost like a sort of, like, tableau vivant version of the murder, where she's, like, offering herself up, her throat's being cut, like, it's a slow draw of the blade across the throat. The whole thing is, like, it reeks of artifice, but considered and conceptual artifice, where, uh, Iglesia is, is essentially providing the audience with a painting, a representation of, of what's going on, because of the emotional impact that he wants to give from it. And so all, all, all, like, intention of reality, any, any idea that this would be a, a sort of a hyper-realistic depiction of events, just goes out the window. It's all stylized, and I think that that's hugely to the film's merit. It's absolutely fantastic. I'm surprised that it did get, sort of, green-lit and, and released, because the whole premise is on that this guy has to continue to escalate these things, because he doesn't think he's going to be able to explain to the police because of his social status, and he won't be given, you know, a pass on it. So that, that whole causality, this whole film, is because of that reason. So we think at the beginning, anyway, that, you know, that if he, if he was from, from in that towel block next door where, where they more elite will live, that he may have a chance in the courts of, you know, being okay if it was an accident. Well, there's a, there's a very interesting scene when he's at the bar with the, the gay neighbour who, from the towel block that he's, he sort of befriends, almost begrudgingly, like this guy obviously flicks friendship upon him. Well, it, but it's part of, I think part of that is just that he doesn't really want people in his life. Like he's just like, it just keeps on happening. Although he's a little keen to take home the soup waitress. But when they're at the, when they're at the bar and the police turn up, and there's that fantastic like close up shot of his face, their guns, their fascist badges, like, and he knows, you as the audience, even without any historical context, you know how threatened he is. And he's very quick to provide the papers, like they're like, we need your ID papers. And his gay neighbour doesn't have any papers. And the police are all ready to just fucking cart him off until the owner of the restaurant comes out or the owner of the bar comes out and says, oh no, I know who he's here all the time, it's fine. And then he kind of gets a pass, which is interesting because sexual deviancy, and again, I'm very heavily using quotes, not my words, was, was not allowed in, in Franco sense and cinema at the time. This is the first depiction of a gay character in Spanish cinema. So, and this is something that would play into a glaciers is work later, like he dealt a lot with addiction later in his life, in his career, and actually stopped filming because of his own drug addiction. I don't know if he was gay himself, but it was definitely a recurrent theme like sort of confused sexuality, not feeling like he belonged to society, the otherness that comes with homosexuality within the social structure of the time. And I think all of this plays into this, this, this character, essentially feels, it's a really interesting mix because he feels like these actions while immoral, he knows they're immoral, that he feels they're inevitable, he feels they're unavoidable, because there is no other chance for him, whether it's his girlfriend or his brother, whoever saying, oh, you have to go to the police, we'll get this sorted out. That's just an option for him. You know, his socio political status, his economic status just don't allow that to be a response, like a way he's going to behave with the stuff. And I think that Iglesia has always like, has always played with that sort of like that class dynamic, that idea that if you're not at a certain level in society, then all the society is against you. Is there in the week of the killer version, is there more of the like the queer text of it all? I wouldn't even say subtext, because it is, it's out there in this film. Like, did they go deeper into it, especially around those swimming pool scenes? No, I mean, like that, the swimming pool stuff is about the same as it would be. I think there's this, the majority of the extra stuff is around the factory. And around the minutiae of that. And it plays the, so the new British label, Radiance Films, are just about to release in the UK, the first English language version of working class goes to heaven, which is an amazing sort of like pro unionist, anti corporate anti-capitalist picture, which plays in a much grander scale with a lot of the smallest things that the directors cut on the long version of Cannibal Man play with. And I very strongly recommend it to people who liked that vibe. It has less of the, less of the hatchet work and more of the union man having his fingers torn off in a latte. Here's the thing, as I say, I disappeared after I saw the slaughterhouse stuff. But then I, I read up on the director and I was just like, no, there's way more to this. Like the reviews are through the roof of this thing. So I gave it another go. And I just loved it on so many levels. There, there is all that political stuff. And then there is just a horror film amongst it, you know, this thing that is constant escalation, loads of fantastic kills. And then there's a sort of a mystery, willy or willy not get away with it. And you know, and then the guy spying on him as well, like there's so much to take from this one film. It's magic. I love it. Fantastic. I will say anyone who knows anything about the censorship regulations of like franca era Spain knows whether or not he will get away with it. There's some, there's some pretty strong arm requirements to making a film about a guy going against the law in Spain in 1972. Have you seen a, have you seen a picture by George Frangiou called Les Sang de Betes, the part of the beast? So this is Frangiou, who directed Lesie Sconversage, one of the greatest horror films of all time. In 1949, he did a short art film called The Blood of the Beast or Les Sang de Betes, which is ostensibly just black and white slaughterhouse footage into cut with like pastoral countryside. And it's about the violence of modernization, like the required bloodshed of the future arriving in rural France. And it's, it's a, it's a hard watch. Like, you're not, you're not going to have a good time, but you can have a good time. I am a great movie. It's a great film. It's only a short, it's on the, if you pick up the Criterion DVD, I'm not sure if it's on the blue, you pick up the Criterion DVD of Eyes Without a Face. It's on there as an extra feature. I think it's probably on YouTube as well, but like it's really. I've already got that. There you go. Oh, wow. Okay, that's, oh, that's easy for me. Sorry, folks, listen in, but yeah, I've got that now. Okay, cool. So again, having you on, I can't not mention the effects and that the famous one here is that hatchet to the face. It's even on that sever in front cover. Yeah. Well, the painting of it for justifiable reasons. Now, I'm not so impressed with some, some of it as I was with the previous film, but it does in places feel a bit more realistic here. And what's your impression of the effects during for this film? I should say again, like, it's not a film being made for gorehounds. It's a, it's a film using horror to get a message out. And I think that a lot of the best horror is that, like, you know, uses that system. If you, if you watch this as a 17 year old who has just heard about the nasties list and wants to watch everything on it, especially if you watch it, like, as you did directly after kind of a horror course, it might be a little bit of a disappointment. That said, I think stylistically, the films, the effects are perfectly serviceable. Like, they're not great. But I can, I can get a lot of enjoyment, as I said earlier, out of a, a, a, well intentioned, but not great special effects. Like, there's some, there's some fun to be had with it. And I think that the cinematography is stylistic enough that a lot of them land. Like that, that cleaver is quite shocking because it's such a bold moment, especially considering, like, the first, the two kills, three kills, the three kills that precede it are relatively minimalist, aside from that Vivol throat cut that I mentioned. But the stuff that feels very realistic is the aftermath, because he's, he's, he's constantly sort of, like, stashing these bodies. He doesn't know what to do with them. He's shoving them in the back room. The, the shot of that woman on the bed with all the blood down her shirt, like that, that looks like a crime scene photo that feels very realistic without any makeup effects without, like, when you get close to the wound and you see that stuff on the neck, it doesn't work. And that's fine. But the, those wide shots, they all feel very realistic. And the man handling of the bodies is some of the best I've seen, like, you know, from an actor. They are head, they're real people. So they're heavy as fuck. And then there's a, when he's moving that woman from the floor onto the bed, and he goes around the bed frame. I don't know if you notice, but he cranks her hand into the top of the bed frame. And she doesn't win. She doesn't respond at all, which is, you know, very good work on everybody's part. Well, that is some of the stuff, like, the beads of sweat. I mean, this film is really a grimy watch. Like, you can, you can feel how hot it is in that, that little apartment that he's in, or rather that sort of shack. I don't know what you would even call that. Yeah, like a, like, it's borderline a squat. Like he, I think him and his brother, I think they own it, but it's, it's basically in a wasteland. Like the only other people around are the kids playing football in the, in the dust ball outside. Dogs. Yeah, exactly. And the dogs, well, and in fact, when the, the, the gay friend comes out with his boxer dog, which we are told is like special, because he says he wants it to be able to mate, but it has to be with another boxer. And there's like, immediately there's a microcosm of class, classes and bear. Like the idea that it has to be worthy. And eventually he just cuts it loose. And he says, I gave it two hours of freedom. I'll just let it run, run among the strays. And our lead says, Oh, well, be careful. Like a lot of the dogs around here are pretty hungry. Like they're, they're pretty weak. And his neighbor says, Oh, but a, a welfare dog will always be stronger than one of the strays. And then there you go. Like, once again, at several times in the movie, there are lines that sort of sum up like an underlying premise of the film. And there you've got, yeah, the innate strength of the privileged. Like, you know, he cannot go to the police and talk about the mistake he made. He got a fight with the taxi driver. He, he hit him and he killed him. He didn't know he killed him. He ran away from him after a fight and found out that he was dead. If he was a privileged member of society, he would have got away with that. I mean, particularly in a fascist government, you know, and you can grease some palms and get away with literal murder, but no such luxury is available to our, to our guy. He also talks at another point about how people don't want to know about whether food they, they comes from the, the mechanization of, of industrial meat rendering. Yeah, you know, like he talks about the, the, the, people not wanting to be like aware of that situation, which you can extrapolate into, you know, that famous phrase, everyone, no one wants to know how the sausage is made, talking about the passing of laws. Like you extrapolate that into fascist governing, and all the people that were happy to live under the fascism, under Franco's rule, who were benefiting from it. And, and this is incredibly prescient because you had the democratic revolution in Spain, after the death of a couple of years after the Franco, his successor, or his successor successor, I can't remember how it played out, was espoused was, was, to not dethroned, but you know what I mean, was, was kicked out. And a democratic Spain was, was organized, but a huge number of the same people were still in charge, and a huge number of the same rules were still in place. So the, the people who'd gotten away with all this awful, like murder and mistreatment of people under Franco, were still able to wander around completely free of any kind of repercussion. And it's, the idea is that the, if it works for people, if they're not dissatisfied in themselves, they're not going to question it. Going back to working class goes to heaven. Again, the main character is really anti, like unionized action, because he's the, the sort of the, the vunderkin that the factory, they're like, oh, he's the fastest worker. He's great. And so he is anti striking, anti collective action. And it's only when he loses a finger in the lathe, that he suddenly becomes staunchly pro union, because it affects him, because it's about the selfishness of the people that won't like think of others, won't extrapolate from their own, like, aside from their own circumstance, like to the, to one of the people who are experiencing. And I think there's a lot of that in in cannibal man. I mean, just the half an hour that we've been speaking about this, there are so many hot topics and things that we can pull, little threads that we were just pulled for a huge subjects. What I'm going to say now might seem sort of just so silly to even mention. But why do you think that this film of all of them was placed in this video nasty list? What, what's the criteria you think that they would think like this one has to go in there? I mean, there's a lot of weird mysteries that the entire list is a very mixed bag, both of quality and justifiable inclusion. I think what it comes down to is that the people who are marketing it thought the only way to sell it to people was to ride the wave of interest in exploitation horror. So they changed the name to cannibal man. Cannibal films were very, very heavily in the spotlight. You know, think about the court cases in Italy, around cannibal Holocaust, dear daughter having to go to court to prove it wasn't a snuff film. The fact that it's got animal death in it, which is doesn't sit well with the British, going back to Frangiou and Lesuson visage. Like one of the things he was told was by the financiers was don't include any animal deaths because the Brits don't like it and there's British money in this. And then obviously he included animal death with all the dead dogs, even though it wasn't real. I don't think God. Like as I go deeper and deeper into the genre, like see more and more like weird stuff that I've not seen really searched stuff out, particularly Asian stuff where oh my God, there's there's often some surprise animal death. Yeah, I see more and more of this stuff. I just fucking hate it. But I don't want it to be erased either. I don't want to find out I loved a film that had a load of animals killed for it. And I didn't have to confront that at the time. I think that my experience of that film has to include that. I have to like the film in spite of that, I have to know that within the context of the movie. I don't want that to be repackaged into a consumable, appetizable, nugget version of the film. I want to know all the horrible stuff. I mean, too right. The one that gets me and it's not even a video nasty is the devils and how we still can't get a full copy of it in the UK. I just don't get it. I'm all for putting a rating on things fine. But since the ship, it's unfathomable to my mind. Yeah, I don't think America gets a lot right. But having the unrated option is a very positive decision, I think. Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy that we're still subject to that. But then, you know, I did the second even said to be film, that's not going to get released. I'm cutting the UK any time soon. Still one of my favourite all-time films, Dan. I love that movie. I genuinely like, I think it's it's Saylo-esque talking about accidental masterpieces. I don't know how deliberate, like even having spoken to Tom at length about it all. I don't know how deliberate the decision was. But in the uncut version, there's such a perfect crescendo of of disgusted debauchery. Nothing, no event is like less offensive than the previous event. And so when you watch that film with a horror audience who are all quite seasoned and tough and laugh off the most grotesque thing, even then in a room full of horror hounds, there's normally a point at which the entire room falls silent. Like a litmus for how strong the collective stomach is. All you're doing. Well, it was a group effort. Yeah, okay, okay. We went through this last time. I'm not taking full responsibility, just like Tom's having you. Okay. Despite the pain with me holding a axe. Thank you so much for coming back on, giving so much of your time. You're having me, Tom. I don't think that anyone in this room would dispute the stories that you've told and this lady here. Inevitably, okay, inevitably there are problems and problems to arise. How do you solve them? In my opinion, you don't solve them by removing that jurisdiction from a court of law, which is where it exists at the moment, and handing it over petty bureaucrats. Setting up a shoe. I've already seen publications that presume of it. Indeed. Which has been showed to be an ass. What through the years it's been in existence? No, no, no, no. I want to turn for a parent, Dave King at the back. I don't know your views on the census. Can I just put one thing to you first? All parents censor for their child as they're bringing them up. That's a natural thing, isn't it? Because you're trying to protect your child from it. Have you got any feeling that this responsibility that should be the parents mainly is being taken away from a parent? Not at all. My position really is that I'm opposed to the freedom of parents to have access to any kind of video, video nasty and so on, because of a very graphic experience on my own home. We don't have a video recorder. We wouldn't have video nasses in the home. My son spending a Saturday morning with a friend, indeed with two friends, finished up because of the inclement weather, I believe, in the lounge of his friend's home watching that indescribably evil video on my view. The evil dead. He came home, was unable to eat his meal. We attached no significance to that at all. He later went to bed and at two o'clock in the morning, I was awakened out of a deep sleep to go into my boy's bedroom. He was in a crouch position with his hands between his knees, screaming, screeching in fact, a sickening sound, and took a great deal of time composing him. We eventually got through that night, the following night, bearing in mind he's 11 years old, almost 12 years old, he wet his bed. Now that was quite uncharacteristic. He sobbed, he had nightmares, he came into our room with pictures from the evil dead still passing before his mind. That's several weeks ago now, but even as recently as last week, I believe it was, something triggered the thought in his mind once again, the awful picture and the words. Now I'm not a left or right wing. In fact, I'm just middle of the road, politically, but I feel very, very strongly about the freedom of other parents to show our children that these things. We wouldn't have them, but I'm your contour of other parents and to finish off today with my top five pick, yeah, enter in the top five. It is the wacky, it's the wild, it's the wonderfully bad ass, the driller killer of 1979. I've got John Tantalon on here to chat about it with me. And if you want to find him online, just go to North Edinburgh Nightmares. You'll get there. [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome back, John. Hello. Good to be here. I was just saying, but I wanted to capture it. So I saw this again last night, but I watched it with the commentary. Yes. And I've heard so many things about the director before, and it was his commentary. And by the end of it, even though a lot of what he's saying was not, you know, was not PC in any way, I feel like this guy's heart was in the right place, and I loved him. I was laughing during the commentary. I've never laughed at a commentary before. I had such a great time with it, but I've got no history with this film, nothing, except when I was younger, I was so excited. I somehow got a VHS. I put it in, and I was like, where's the driller killer? What's going on? And I didn't even get halfway through. And, you know, then I come back to it later on in life to now. What's your history with this film? Right, driller killer. I've told you the story before about the local video shop, BJ Video. It was just along the road from where I lived now. It's now a barbed by hairdressers. And when we were in there, and you know, it was the poster in the window for alien contamination and another Italian nasty film, and there was tape still in the shelves. And one of them was the driller killer on beta and the cover. I mean, to be confronted with that when you're 12 or something. What's that? What's that all about? The guy with the beard and the drill? I seem to remember, at the time, the guy on the cover reminded me of a teacher at a grange hill with the beard, and that's what always stuck in my mind about him getting the drill in his head. So eventually, you know, like, I was too excited about our titles, Don of the Dead, Change on Massacre, Class '84, et cetera. And eventually I says, can I get that when my mum's just going, yeah, whatever, you know, she was chatting to the owner, brain done stuff. And that day, it was the driller killer, I got a beat of Max copy of the driller killer, and an out-of-date line barry string, free, went along the road. And I know that friends of me were getting other things, older friends from the same shop, you know. So yeah, we've got it home. And I always remember the cover used to get it, and it was a kind, it was a run sort of mock cover to take the tapes away in. And it had like the cover of the Cannonball run, but they changed it with the name of the video shop in the front of the car, your BJ video on the front of this Corvette or whatever it was, and the beat of driller killer in your hand and the line bar egg and the other. Well, you mentioned that cover that I think, I don't know if it was like UK cover only. Look, that cover you're talking about is so vivid in my memory of like, this is what the video nasties are, and this is what you should be avoiding. And that's obviously what really excited me and really made me want to see it. I mentioned that commentary. He said that actual scene was the film's come shot. How you phrased it? He said, that's the money shot. Yeah, one. And don't ask me how I did it, because I'm not going to tell you that that commentary is incredible. I mean, I've watched it, and he's having a great time. And as you say, it's very on PC, what he's saying to the guy, the book, I can't remember his name. And he clearly has worked on one of the book before, but he's like, yeah, get out of here, motherfucker. You know what I'm saying, you know. And but there's another commentary from a previous release. I'm not sure if I've ever listened to it, but he's absolutely out his face in it. And halfway through, he just gives up. He's just not interested. So the one on the arrow disc is, you know, exemplary. You know, it's, you get lots of good stuff off of him on that. I'm glad. Yeah, he only gave up as the titles were going, and he was still being sarcastic. He's just saying, I'll send me a question, whenever we know. What was the author of the book's name? Can you remember Brad Stevens? Brad Stevens, a guy that I will write there. Yes, I guess I was reading the book last night at work, and looking through it just for if there's any stuff I'd missed. But yes, it's an interest to be the guy clearly is the 14 of Ferrari, you know, he knows his stuff. And to do the commentary with him, you know, incredible. I can not just imagine like he's rubbing his hands, loving every second, like to work with your heroes is one thing, but to sit down and critique with your hero film. Wow, amazing. Since you've sort of discovered it yourself, is it a film that you've revisited over the years quite a lot? Many times. So the original release we hired on the beta. So years later in the late 80s, I got it again, you know, got a loan of it and did a copy and watched it many times. But it was always the same, the people that, you know, saw the cover, and I think there's a warning on the cover, classic bitcoast, I've seen like, um, strong version or whatever. Maybe I'm getting it mixed up with zombie flesh here, but I didn't get a warning. Um, so when a lot of my friends watched it, they weren't shot. What on the earth are we watching here? This isn't what I thought it was going to be. But to me, I just loved it. You know, it was the whole vibe of it, but that sort of 70s thing. To me, it had more in common with someone like the Warriors or Saturday night fever or something like that, without sort of New York time. Maybe taxi driver, but it just had that vibe to it or something off the telly at that time, like how street blues or something had that gritty feel. Um, so I wasn't expecting it to be Friday the 13th. And I don't know why it just kind of didn't expect it to be a slasher film for some reason. And it did everything a bit about punk rock and a bit of sort of claustrophobia. And, you know, the gore certainly pays off when you get it. I mean, you said it like this film is as punk rock as any film I've ever seen. Just the way it's filmed, the music, the like gorilla, the bits and pieces here and there, it all just feels like of that New York time, that such an exciting time for art. Um, maybe not, you know, if you're a regular person just trying to get by New York, maybe that was a bit of a horrific time for you. So I don't know. But what an incredible sort of capturing of that moment of time. I absolutely love it. And I just think he captures this so well. Like, my only experience of forever before was Miss 45. And many, many moons ago, I saw Bad Lieutenant. Yes. So that's my only experience of him before. And, you know, on this recent sort of thing that I'm doing now, I watched Miss 45 and I just fell in love with her. I thought, Oh, this is right up my alley. I'm going to give this one a go again. And I'm so glad I did because, I mean, as a kid, I was expecting Friday the 13th type stuff. Yeah. As an adult, having seen what I've seen over these past two years, I loved every minute of it. I really did John. I totally and thoroughly was thrilled from beginning to end. Well, the thing with Miss 45 was before I saw that, I got there was an incredible film came out in 1984. And I got the cassette and they've been the year later in Palace video. And it was called Terror and the Isles. We ever heard of this? I've not known. So Terror and the Isles. It's a feature length movie, a compilation of clips on horror films. So it starts off with all the classics Halloween, Friday the 13th dress to kill Chainsaw Massacre the lot. And it's narrated in a cinema by Donald Pleasance and Nancy Allen tailing the story with all these other characters and it's in a New York cinema from what I gather or L.A. And that's where I saw the clip from Miss 45. And, you know, a couple outside of terrifying bits. But what they've done that makes it even more scary is it's got its own soundtrack from Terror and the Isles. So the Ferrara scene where there's no music has got this terrifying pounding score to it. And I thought, my God, what's this? So when I saw Miss 45, which is in Creda, it's a great film. And you know, it plays very different these scenes because they've not got the soundtrack. You're getting Terror and the Isles. If you've not seen this, you've got to find it. It's incredible, you know this. But it's basically a completion of clips but done with the master tailing you, you know, setting up the scene. It's very good. It is available. It was an extra one, a blue day release of Halloween 2. I think it was an American release. I've certainly got it. Some have gotten VHS but I'm not sure if it's had an official release but it is something else, Terror and the Isles. And it played in cinemas, you know, here in 84. I always remember that. Well, that's amazing, right? Because I, you don't think of it now because everything just clicks away. But like back then something like that, that would have been a horror fan's dream. Oh, I'm true. Yeah. And it's got it's, it's got it's humor too. I mean, it's Donald Pleasance taking the piss out himself and scenes following like I should have known that was coming and stuff and Nancy Allen for Drake's To Kill and all these other great films. So it is. It's very well done. But the Miz 45 scene, you know, see what you think if you watch it. So as a director, Mr Abel Ferrara, what do you think of him? I personally, I'm really impressed by it by what we see. Just, I mean, the opening dolly shot that apparently they created themselves, like just to just for that one shot, I just think, wow, like what an opener to a film. And then it just continues. Little bits here and there. You obviously know a lot more about it than me. I'm two watches into this thing. Like, how do you feel like he got along as a director in this? Um, it's very real. I mean, right from the off when it says this film was play it loud, it's a punk rock intro play it loud. And it's it's very him even when you hear the contest, not like he's actually just kind of rolling through like, yeah, whatever, you know, and doing the things with the tax, like keep the time running driver. And he's not even acting, just being himself. And I think just about everyone in the films doing that, they're just there for for the ride. When you see the band that are strong about it, they're just being themselves. They're just being like a band. You're a bit spaced out, strong around. And that's a rare quality in a film. You know, some people could say, oh, look at the acting, but I don't think they are. They're just being themselves, older people in the film. And you know, that's incredible. Even the shots talks about some of them. The dolly bit at the start, you know, when he's in the church and it's the hands going along with the old man and the church is gonna, that's a good shot. And things like that, it's very real. And the guy tries to grab him. He's, you know, the female in his face, he's not acting, he's going, get off me. So it's just full of clever little things like that. He was talking about the commentary about that church. He said it was a real church just around the corner from where? Was it Mark Scorsese, he says? That's it. Yeah. Yeah. He's also talking about a similar scene in Bad Left Tenant, but the church basically says that that set up was a stage, you know, it was made in our studio. Yeah. But it's very similar the way it's filmed, you know, just tracking this sort of long-haired guy, strolling down the aisle of the church, it's clever. Very well done. In that commentary, I feel like we're reviewing the commentary, but I think I'm going, I just think he is, what's the word, he is not giving himself anywhere near as much credit as he deserves. Like there is too much incredible stuff on display here to be a fluke. And, you know, I can see that a lot of it was just like a spare in the moment, right? There's no one around, we can get this scene done at the corner of this alley. Let's say it now. Yeah. I can see that. And I can see like where he says, oh, we could, of course, we didn't get a permit for that. Yeah. Completely understand that business. But it's the quality of the shots. You know, it's not just a cinematographer, you know, with 40 years experience going, I'll just capture New York and then pan over to the actual scene that's taken. No way. That's him. He's like making sure that all this powerful stuff gets in there. You're all a film-making, if you will. That's it. Yeah. But there are flashes, those red flashes that you see, which I thought at first, is that like a, like in lost, like a flash forward, seeing what's going to happen? But like it happens once he's actually already started killing. I think they're just like lovely little touches that are essential to this film because it really puts you in that, it gives you that feel of ickiness. It's all red, there's blood everywhere, it's gruesome. This is, this again is like that money shot that he talks about. I just don't think any of this stuff is a fluke, except like you say, a lot of that acting, he's just capturing what's going on as it goes on. And I imagine, I would just love to see what's on the cutting room floor. Yeah. He's just rolling with it. How is a kite more than likely? All of the cast, you know, they're out there, box, probably stoned. Certainly baby day, you know, he goes into detail about it, he goes at the end, you know, like they're in Max's Kansas City, he goes, that's the junkie PPD, he says, 10 months before, no, that was when she was straight. So yeah, they were probably just, and there's another line he says about, you know, there's no dope, there's no drugs, he says, that's the difference between the dope and the drugs, you know, she states. So they were probably just taking dope totally for granted. I mean, if she, you know, progressed to the harder stuff 10 months later, the other thing about, you know, the time New York was absolutely rancid at that time when they were filming. There was like, you know, none of the bins were getting empty, there was rats everywhere in that time in 78, you know, the bit, the place was really bad, it was falling a bit. So you can just imagine the smell of the place as well when they're filming, you know, that section that he says where it was. I can't remember exactly which part. Was it the Bowery? Did he say when he's filming the bit with the old guys in the street and he's, you know, shooting with a long lens capturing them being sick and passing the bottle and stuff, you know, you can imagine what that must have been like. It wasn't, it wasn't pretty. Well, I think you got that in basket case as well, didn't you? We've had a lot of, there was another couple of films I've seen recently. I mean, New York was such, but in that period, was it like five to ten years? I'm not 100% sure on a sort of stretch of time, but if you wanted a post-apocalyptic film on a budget, if you wanted to actually capture the streets as dangerous, then that's where you would hedge. And I mean, you've mentioned it, we've mentioned Max is already. With the music scene as it was at that time, so exciting. And this film contains a band like jamming and, you know, creating art there in front of the screen. I love all that. Yeah. So good. Like, do you know what they're called? I've looked into it. The Roosters. The Roosters was the name of the, for the film, I don't know if they were a real band, because the singer was his pal that had all the paintings in real life, the only apartment, but they were called the Roosters. They got that down the side of their car when you first meet them. And, you know, they're going to view the apartment, but yeah, when they're playing it, Max is always remembering that song stuck in my head, and it was just a repent of kind of tune. And they do that a few times, they do one, and it's like, ah, like the sort of the spy hunter theme or something, or something, you know? Yeah. That's like B-52s, Planet Claire. They did that like a year after. First we got Toni papa caddia. You play that more than more with this band, the Roosters. Hey, Toni, you're going to step now. You're going to step. Come on, you guys, you're going to step. Toni papa, you're going to step. And I'm saying, what would they definitely watch this film back in the back? There's no difference in that baseline. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, as kind of simplistic as the songs, how are they sticking your head forever? You know, and especially one when they're playing at Max's, and he was saying that he based it on like talking heads or a, you know, television or one of these bands, or the New York dolls, you know, definitely got that sort of fuel. Definitely. Yeah, you know, I would be absolutely terrified as a punter going to any show at that point. I go to gigs now and I like to sit down. I do not want to be New York in '78, '79 in Max's no way. It looks terrible. It looks scary as a thriller killer. It does. But it certainly is real. I mean, it captures that vibe. You know, he probably just went and then started filming, but I didn't get permission. And, you know, just kind of went for it. Like so many hours, did Larry Cohen did that with this film. I was talking about permits and stuff. He says, we just waited till we got moved on and shot, you know, all our scenes for cutering serpent and stuff. Just winged it. Well, yeah, definitely. I remember talking about that film and like the blood that was scattering on the streets, cue the wing serpent. And I thought, Oh, well, that's gnarly because people around won't know what's going on there. And then with this one, like this, some of the drilling, like the people surrounding, what the hell must I have thought was going on? Because that actually said, somebody's stuff's filmed from across the street on a long lens. You know, so if I was walking along and seeing that, I would be turning around quick, smart and walking the other way. I was doing a daft thing last. It had been late September, early October, every year, trying to do a short film from my first book, just a little section from one of the stories in my first book. And I was doing one about Halloween, the trick or treating thing in Scotland. We call it guys. And the story was called help the geysers. It's got three, so to say, it's just like a poor man to a different people get visited off trick or treaters. And one of them, in the end, it's like the guy escapes. And then he leaves the mask behind and leaves it on the stretch of path. So I was trying to film this shot of this mask lying on the path, pitch dark. Nobody around to getting it. It was looking great. You can check it out on the YouTube. But there was a jogger coming along towards me slowly. And when she turned around, she was on the phone, her husband. She was terrified. Oh, what's going on? Oh, for goodness sake, it's a mask. She didn't know what it was in the path. Now, to apologise, she was okay. It's okay. There's nothing wrong. So I know exactly so. It's okay. One of her husband on the path, because I was mucking up with this mask on my own. But that's why guerrilla filming will do that. And I think, like, sometimes it will not work. Sometimes it will just be rubbish. And you can tell, do you know what, you should have gone for a different take or something like that. It hasn't worked. But like you mentioned, if you're good at it, like with Cohen, then you can really create incredible art, some real, real stuff. That's a thing. Capital R, capital EAL. Mr. Ferrera as an actor. I, first of my watch this, thought it was the weakest thing. When I watched it again with the commentary, I turned off the commentary for a bit because I was thinking, hang on a minute, I really like this. It took a go. It did take me a go. But as you say, there is something real about it. There is something like not fake. And you do get a lot of that in these films where you're trying to be cool. Like if you're the director and also the actor, you try and make yourself more than the film itself. You try and build yourself up in it. I didn't see that here. No. I just felt like he was just part of this project as much as anyone else, as much as the singer next door. There is a few bits that I just want to mention. So, and this is what I got from it this time. We've mentioned the cab journey, which I just think is such a great opening set up for this is who the character is. But the thing that I love is we don't get a kill for, I think it's like 37 minutes. It's a long time. Is it the economic pressures that cause him to do it? It's not a sexual thing. And that was mentioned in the commentary as well. Yeah. Is it purely that? Is it purely that he can't catch a break? Is it the money that makes him switch? Yeah. I mean, I think I haven't, you know, rewatched it. Is it's the pressures, not having the money and the pressure of getting this paint and finished that people are telling them it's already done. It's good enough, this bull. And he's going, no, no, no, I need to do more. So he's got that going on his head trying to pay off the bills. The scene when he's gone daft at the phone bills, he's reading the envelope and got a 45 LA, Washington. And you know, and then throws the phone out the window. All that's mounting up. And you know, the scene when, you know, they're saying they've no money's gone. Next next month, we'll be going to Morocco, we'll be going here, we'll be doing this, we'll get some motorcycles. All that stuff, you know, he's trying to, you can get this factory all the way from the alley, having sort of no cash, borrowing money off his manager, or the guy, you know, with the painting. You know, all those things, you know, it's just getting by, they're sitting with, you see his friend, he's got next to nothing. And there's a whole burger, there's half a can of Budweiser. All these things, he's just getting by. I think even when the pizza gets delivered, like he grabs it like it's life itself. Whereas the women next to him are just like with knife and fork cutting little slices. He's shoving it in there like, like there's no tomorrow. That's the always like to look at that pizza. I must admit, you know, there's huge big slikes and it's got like a ton of papers on it and stuff and he's called Wolf. All these slikes seem to be as great. Next thing I want to say is that, does he even know this is happening? Is it something that, because those red flashes make me think, well, maybe that's a switch and he doesn't know anymore. He just turns into this person. Or is he fully conscious? He knows what he's doing. He just wants to let off steam. What do you think that is? I think there's two sides to that. I mean, you see it when he's going out and he's talking to the sort of the guys on the street and he's asking them questions before he starts attacking them. He's saying, the guy, why are you here? You know, where's your old lady? How's she not looking after you? And when he goes to the church, you know, there's a connection is that his daddy found a note with the guy's address on it. Right. So as he, you know, he's terrified of becoming that guy in the church. If he thinks it's his father, there's maybe an element to that when he's terrified of becoming what these guys are on the street. The symbols when the flashing, it's almost to me like a migraine when he's seeing the thing with baby David, the mask on the head and he's seeing the his partner with no eyes. It's almost like, oh, like a horrible migraine, horrible flashback or something. That is triggering him to do what he does. That's what I thought. And when you see him committing the first kill or the series of kills, he goes back to the house and he's just ravenous, but appetite. What can I get from the fridge? He's drinking the milk, drinking the beer, eating the burger all at once. It's almost like, like a mad rush after doing those kills. So it's a very complicated scene to see actually what sort of state of mind he was in. It's interesting. It begins with like this almost comedy scene where he's actually got a drill when he's trying to drill in a door like this. And she's saying, no, not there. And it sort of goes on a little bit too long, plays its hand a bit too much, but you know, fine. And then the character arc is by the end, he's gone. He's like a complete mess. I didn't mention I was going to say this, but what do you make of the ending at the end there? Do you think that that I forget her name? Is it Claire? Yeah. I think that's the end. It's like a double suicide. So I think when he's in the bed, and you know, she thinks it's our new partner. This guy describes it like blind to Palma, and he's just going to do the two of them in whatever way. I think that's how it ends. You know, it's just kind of suicide. Got it. Okay, because I do love, I love a fade to black. I love it so much. I like it just in the air because then I'm just constantly thinking, all right, we don't get part two. Yeah. What the hell happened? So does this, when we talked about this before with the burning? Yes. Does this one deserve its place on the video nasty list? Because this is a completely different type of film. Yeah. It's certainly more our house. It's got more than common mess at a Roman Polanski film or something like Main Streets or Taxi Driver. And today the truth, I see a hell of a lot of Spike Lee, and it's obviously Spike Lee came much later, but a similar sort of film making to Sunnissam to do the right thing, all set in this area in New York. Rather than your running about slasher film, you know, it's one of these films, like Cruisin, like the Exterminator, like Vigilante, you know, things from that time, Bill Loose thing sort of film, Maniac. But it was the gore. It was the cover. So that could probably have more to do with its notoriety than anything. It was that sheer sort of front cover and the scene with the drill in the head. Apart from that, it's quite bloodless. I mean, there's a couple of little squib shots. There's the bit the guy gets it in the back. Very little else. There's really, it's based on one horrendous drilling in the head scene that got its such notoriety. It is strange. Like, I feel this one doesn't deserve it because it's almost a historic document. It would have been a place. I'm not going to say it's like almost documentary style, but it feels in places like we are capturing this moment that is now long gone. Yes. And I feel like this one is crazy to go on there. And I think he got fucked over purely because of that front cover image. Yes. And knowing how well it will sell with that on there. Vipco. I mean, if you've ever seen the Vipco documentary with the guy, oh, this is amazing. It's a feature-length documentary about Vipco. I've got it. It's really good. And the interview Mike Lee, not my kind of remember his name, the guy behind Vipco, he's talking about all these scenes about how they flutter into controversy, sell copies, and it all backfired. So like the driller killer, you know, he talks about that, posters and video shots with that, and the blood runs and rivers and things that aren't even in the film. So it was all they're doing that kind of got all this trouble for the film. I don't know if Ferrari was even you know that bothered about it, because when you see him, he's talking about, he's saying, yeah, it's in the house of commons, but he's kind of vague about the history of it with the video nasty thing. I said, don't you, he was bothered. He was really gone to the next film. And it very much seems like he's at the moment. Yeah, you capture him on a bad day. You get a knee flop out there. Orking of him. I just, as a final question, his film catalog, two questions, is this as good as places any to start? And is this his best moment, his driller killer, his best? And if you're thinking, I'm going to dip into his back catalog here, is this where you should begin? For similar sort of films with similar vibe, incredible actors being real. The one that I always, I've seen many of them, some of them stand there more than others. But the one I've watched several times has the exact same vibe as King of New York with Christopher Walken, right? And the cast in that is incredible. And it's got that total New York feel to it. But it was made 10 years later, 1989. But you've got Lawrence Fishburn, you know, how many, eight years after the death wish to, is reprising the role of the thugging death wish to down to the high, the glasses and stuff. You've got David Caruso, who's in first blood, then, you know, did a couple of things and then came back as the detective in this. They're all playing incredible roles. Lots of other faces, people that were in Ferrari films in the 80s. And it's got that real feel. And of course, Christopher Walken, you know, he can walk through the thing and do it with his eyes shut and be from Wayne's world to the deer hunter to, he can just be Christopher Walken like that. So that was a film with the New York subways, with the whole thing about the gentrification in New York. And they're wanting to keep it real for the people is, you know, wanting to raise mafia funds or organized crime funds to keep New York how he wants it. And not like it is today with the post Giuliani New York what happened to that. Yeah. So that's got some new social commentary in there. And it's not as so gritty as Driller Killer, I'm a 45, but it's got that New York, New York groove, if you're a New York vibe about it, you know, not seeing it. Yeah, it's a wonderful film, you know, some great one liners. A lot of people don't like it. It's had some terrible reviews. Some films from that time, you know, they've not aged well due to, you know, just the kind of, the one liners are the kind of the fashions and stuff. But this feels like proper organized crime. I'm not going to say mafia because he's not mafia. He's just a criminal. It's just out the jail and he's got such respect. You know, there's just so many key scenes in it that are very farada. And only someone like Willem Dafoe, Christopher Walken, could carry this stuff off with a straight face, you know, just deadpan intimidation. I'm so glad I asked that question because that's where I'm starting then. Yeah. I'm digging, as I say, I've seen three of them. I do have body snatches. So I've got that, but I've not seen it as of yet. So it's going to be, I don't know what to make it. He didn't seem too impressive with it on his commentary. I mean, you had the funeral with, I don't remember who's in that one. There was the addiction. There was one with Madonna in it. He did one's and yeah, he did that. I think it was maybe the addiction with Madonna. It was at vampires and Christopher Walken, isn't it? Go forward to '89, King of New York. He's back in his New York thing. You know, it's more of a feeler, someone like Summer of Sam, Taxi Driver, that sort of vibe. Lots of good location shots in it. And the world was, you know, in England, it was big films. It was lethal weapon. There was all kinds of big action movies. This sticks with a grittiness from 1979. So I feel, you know, lots of similar cool shots. I'm pretty excited. I think Arrow released it recently. I'm not 100% sure, but I think some big company did. So I will definitely check that out. Oh yeah, Arrow did an incredible release of it. Oh, did I? Yeah, yeah, really, really good. They've done it and I had a 4K version too, I think. But it's got that. It's not about the shine, the films at the time, you know, like your Tony Scott action movies and stuff. This still feels grimy. You know, that's what I want. I want that. I loved watching that on the Underly Killer. Just to see the grind in that film, knowing that he's probably taped over something else to get his film done. I love it. I love it. Where's the stripes? That's not the guy. Where's the stripes? And there's incredible cast in this film. And, you know, all being themselves, you're all not even acting, just rolling around like hardened cops and guys breaking the law that are cops and all kinds of, you know, it's not a nice guy in the old film. So yeah, you gotta check it out. John, thank you so much for coming back. This has been awesome. Love it. Yeah, brilliant. So always a joy to do, you know, one of these podcasts where we always have a very good laugh. There we go. Stay tuned because we've got one more episode left, top four, and then number three, and then number two, and then what I consider to be the very best video nasty that there ever was in the section one, dear. Yeah, what could it be? 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