Big Blend Radio
Clifford Garstang - Author Success Insider
This episode of Big Blend Radio's "Success Insider" spotlight features Clifford Garstang, author of six works of fiction including the novels “The Last Bird of Paradise,” “Oliver’s Travels,” and “The Shaman of Turtle Valley,” and the short story collections “House of the Ancients and Other Stories,” “What the Zhang Boys Know,” and “In an Uncharted Country.” He is also the editor of the acclaimed anthology series, “Everywhere Stories: Short Fiction from a Small Planet.” A former international lawyer, he lives in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia.
Check out Clifford Garstang’s answers to our 10 Author Insider Questions about his writing career: https://blendradioandtv.com/listing/author-success-insider-clifford-garstang/
Keep up with Clifford at https://cliffordgarstang.com/
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
- Duration:
- 49m
- Broadcast on:
- 16 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
Welcome to Big Blend Radio where we celebrate variety and how it adds spice to quality of life. Welcome everyone. Today we are chatting with author Clifford Garstang. In fact, I think he was on our show's way back when. I'm talking about maybe 15, 16 years ago. I was thinking about this the other day. We've known Cliff for a while and you're going to see a lot more of him on our shows. And today we're going to be doing an author success insider Q&A with him. In fact, he answered questions via email, 10 questions. We send pretty much the same questions to everyone, tweak it up a little bit. And insider, so you'll see that in an upcoming magazine, but you can see the link to his answers in the episode notes. Just click to that. I'll go to our website, lendradiontv.com. And we're going to just talk about his career. This is part of our toast to the arts show programming and also success express our business and career show. So everyone, keep up with Cliff. Go to Cliffordgarstang.com. So welcome back, Cliff. How are you? I am doing great. Thank you very much, Lisa. It's great to be here. It's all about you today. Right. Well, you know, I know I was looking at your list of books and I'm like, yeah, do you think it's been about 15 years? Because I was, I think you were on our shows way back when we were doing live shows on blog doc radio or champagne Sundays, I think. Well, my first book came out in 2009. And I don't remember if we did that one. So it could be 15 years. Yeah. Yeah, because that's what we started podcasting in 2008. We started when Twitter started, when Twitter was Twitter, not X, it marks the spot Twitter. But yeah, so it has been, it's been quite a while. And I remember, I think one of the books that really stuck out for me was one of your short stories that was in an uncharted country. Isn't that the first one that you came on with? That's the first one. Yeah. Yeah. That's when you first came on and we're like, wow, man, you write about people and those moments. And I think I must have mentioned this on the one of them, maybe the last show when you're on with your latest novel, the last word of paradise that you write like those little nuances of like you're just a really good character writer. You could have the smallest plot and nothing going on, except for you have two people, anything can happen with with your writing. It's incredible in that way. It's so character driven, you know? Very kind of you to say. I actually just, I think two weeks ago, sent out my newsletter on Substack and the subject was inspiration. And I commented that whenever I go to a new place, that my eyes are really open to details and hearing conversations and getting ideas just from looking at what's going on around me. And when I was writing the stories in that first collection in an uncharted country, I had just moved to rural Virginia where I live after decades of living in big cities. And so it was such a new environment to me that I was just really attuned to what was going on. So if there's some success in drawing those characters, I think it's just because I was really wide awake. Well, watching people is like the best other than animals, you know? And that's the same thing. Right. You know, you know, I watch animals all the time. We watch birds and everything. We're like, I wonder what they're saying. Like, you know, can you, you know, go clean your feathers. I don't know what's ever going on. But, you know, watching people, you never know. And it's developing those stories. It's the one thing about us. We love travel. You know, we drive through a town that's just waking up and I want to know what's going on. I mean, are they having coffee? Are they having tea? Are there still arguing from the night before? Are they getting kids ready for school? You know, that kind of thing. Do you, when you travel, do you kind of have those questions when you look at buildings even and wonder who's behind that wall? Absolutely. Yeah. No, I just love looking at things I've never seen before, trying to figure out what's going on. And you love art, apparently, too. I do. Yeah. Art and music. I totally love music and art. And I think all of the arts together have so much to say to each other. Yeah, I was at another concert last night. I've been going to a lot because we have a classical music festival going on in my town right now. And sitting there listening to Brahms and a couple of other wonderful composers thinking about what was behind the music, what really inspired them to do things in the way that they did. And so inevitably, that kind of thinking gets into my work because I want to understand the creative process from all different angles. Yeah, it's curiosity, right? It's like, what inspired what, you know? So if you go for a walk, when you go for a walk, you're watching everything. You start to see patterns, too, right? Sure. In fact, walking is a big part of my creative process. And it's not necessary that I'm writing about what I see on those walks, but everything that I see stimulates my thinking and gets me a little bit out of whatever rut I might have been in at the time. So it's a great way. In fact, I tell this to people all the time. It's a great way if you are stuck on something, you know, get away from your desk, get away from the computer, go for a walk, and probably the whatever kinks you were dealing with are going to work themselves out. Yeah, it's a big part of writing for me. Well, I think we have to reboot our brains just like we have to reboot our computers once in a while. Mine seems to want to do that a lot. But thanks, Windows updates. What I also hear from you, this curiosity part is almost don't limit your creativity, right? So as new writers get started, because look how we are very opinionated about as humans beings, we're opinionated, right? And we're judgmental. And they say, don't be judgmental. Well, yeah, good luck. We're humans too, right? So we all have flaws. And I think that's one of the biggest things about characters, not only their good qualities, but their flaws. I think we identify more with flaws that we do the positives, right? So you tend to like, you know, the little things are what make a character. So when you look at someone getting started in writing, would you say, you know, nothing's too little and nothing's too big? You know, don't limit yourself in a way, but obviously keep the dynamics and the flow of the story where it actually connects. It's not, you know, to me, not over exaggerated. But in other words, be open because so that we don't limit ourselves in thinking. Absolutely. There can be a tendency to go overboard too, though. And what what I think is really important to remember is something that many of my writing teachers over the years have told me was to look for the uninventable detail, something that really stands out as being so unique and so interesting that it conveys more about a character or a place or an object than you could ever do by a full description. I mean, you can try to paint a word picture, but you don't really need to paint the whole picture. You need to identify the details that will really make the person or the thing with the place come alive for the reader. And connect with them so you're not telling the reader what to think as well. Right. Well, yeah, you are sort of trying to tell the reader what to think often because you want them to draw the same conclusion that you are, but you can't just say X is a bad person. You have to give the details so that the reader will figure that out for themselves. And also, you alluded to this before, but we all have flaws. So if you have a hero in your story, that person can't be perfect because nobody's so you do have to identify the flaws. And likewise, if you've got an antagonist in your story, which you should have, that person probably isn't 100% evil either. And I mean, it's kind of a cliché, but you know, at least make the guy love dogs or something, you know, give them. He may kill people, but he loves dogs. Right, exactly. So some redeeming feature is one way to help build a round character instead of just sort of a flat stereotype. Like this guy sucks. Yeah, you know, yeah, but you know what's weird is, you know, how animals will tell you like dogs will tell you that this they, you know, your dog will go, no, I don't like this person. Right. I, you know, I remember I had a cat called spray bob for a reason. He was a feral cat that we adopted at our house and he stayed outside because he was feral. And I had a friend come over and he, you know, standing underneath our our birthing and spray bob jumped up and literally sprayed him. And I'm like, well, I don't know what this means now. This is a little territorial and weird, you know, but you know, they say all that about like a dog growls that you like if you've got a friend coming over and they don't like your friend, you've got to think twice about your friend. But then serial killers often are close to dogs. I don't know what to think. You know, so I really don't know what to think about that. But those are those those facts, you know, connecting with the reader. My point is to not bag your finger like you must read this. Like, if you go to a restaurant and the chef comes out and tells you how to eat something that takes the way the excitement you want people to turn the page, you know, so that little those negative things have to be in there, but not so demoralizing either, right? Because I think it's those things where we kind of connect, we connect on like interests, right, as well. So that's that's that interesting part. You talked in in your Q&A, which I find I love doing these Q&A is because I was like, I think he's going to say this. And then I'm like, Oh, he didn't say that at all. But you talked about the importance of reading. So do you read things? Let's talk about what you should choose to read because time is time, right? So choosing what you're going to read as a writer, do you read things that will go along with what you're writing or someone that you like their style, or do you go, Oh, I don't want to start copying them? You know what I mean? You don't want to be too influenced, I should say. So how do you choose what to read? Yeah, that's a really tricky balance. I do know writers who, who when they're working on a new project, they stay away from anything that might be too similar or too influential. I'm not sure that I have a strong enough grasp of what I'm doing myself to know if it's going to be too influential. Writing teacher years ago, I mean, many, many years ago told me read widely, but read well, meaning read the good stuff and don't read the bad stuff. So I, you know, I, I tend to read books that I know are well done. I am currently reading a lot of European literature, some in translation, some English or Irish, also, partly because of the new project that I'm working on, which, which, at least in my mind, has sort of a European feel to it. So, you know, I, I don't intend to imitate anybody, but I do want to get a sense of, of their style. Otherwise, you know, I do try to read all kinds of, of things, especially literary fiction, since that's what I think that I write, but I also read from time to time thrillers and spy novels by people who I think do it really well. Like John Lecarre, is such a great writer. And even though that's a genre that I couldn't possibly write in, it's really enjoyable to read. So, so my advice, as I said, in my, my Q&A was to read widely, but read the good stuff. I like this, you know, it's kind of like music, right? As a musician, like if I'm writing something, I can't, I'll start. I'm like, my nickname is Kasuku, which is Swahili for Parrot. I know, not because I talk a lot, look at my career, right? But because I, you know, you emulate until you can break free, right? So, as a singer, I learned, you know, how to do technique by copying people dead on, like dead on. And then you have to go, well, that's boring after a while, because it's boring copying. It's boring once you've learned a style. And then you become who you are and you create, you find your own sound, which is a really interesting project. And then when you write, like when I write songs, it's, if it's in my head and it stays there, then I go, okay. But I don't want to listen to, like if I listen to Bob Dylan, I'm a mess, then I feel like I can't write anything. Like really, you know, lyrically, I just feel like, how does he tell these stories? And he, you know, he really is a master storyteller. You know, he's an incredible poet and he's prolific at it. That's for sure. You know, so it's like, if I listen to him, then I'm just going to beat myself up. Do you ever have those moments like I write notes from songs? Like, all right, this is why what I like about it. Now you need to go do something on that level. And then I beat myself up. But you know, I may have mentioned this to you once before, but there was a time I read a book that was just so good. And, you know, I'll say it, it's Colin McCann's "Let the Great World Spin." And it was so good and so powerful that I was paralyzed by it. And I felt that I shouldn't write again. And I couldn't know again, because what's the point? And then it turns out that there is an antidote to that problem, which is to read a mediocre book, which I then, so I read a book that wasn't not nearly as good. I mean, it wasn't- Don't name that one. I won't name that one. I don't even remember the name of that one at this point, but I'm like, well, I could do at least that good. So- Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, you know, I think it's also everyone's on a journey, right? And it's if it can- sometimes books are just easy to read, you know, that it's just you needed that as a reader at that moment, like you need bubble gum for your mind, you know what I mean? Just kind of to go to like a Zen moment, you know, where your brain doesn't want to think. But I find your read, you're writing fascinating. And what's fascinating to me is you go from short stories, you've also edited anthologies. That's a whole other thing, man. But then doing your short story collection and then writing novels, what's it like going between all three processes? Let's start with the anth- like, which- you start with the short stories, then anthologies or anthologies first? Short stories first. Okay. And I realized that- Well, I mean, I've always liked to read stories and novels that are set internationally. And of course, I had traveled extensively internationally even before I started writing fiction. But I had these- that first collection of short stories was set in rural Virginia. And so, pretty much not international. There is one story in that collection where the characters go to China briefly. But I was so interested in doing these international stories that I pitched the idea of an international story collection to- or anthology to my publisher. And he thought it was a great idea. So I was pursuing that at the same time that I was wrapping up my second book, which is more international, what the John Boys know set in Washington, D.C., but also with Chinese and French elements to it. And so they were sort of happening at the same time. And I think the first volume of the international story anthology, which is called Everywhere Stories, came out in 2014. So that was two years after my second book. Wow. Wow. So putting the anthology together, then doing the short stories and then going to novels. What's it like jumping into the world of novels? Because do you treat each chapter like a short story? Like, you know, like some people write an album. I'm just relating this to music. So my thing, right? Because I've started trying to write novels. Nancy's tried to, but Nancy just did the chart of the world of history. That's what happened to us. She was writing a novel on Kenya, the historical novel, because we love that kind of stuff. And as a kid, we didn't have Google. So the walls of the house became the chart of the world. When was the typewriter invented? When was this? Because she was so scared she was going to get something wrong, historically. You know, so I had a big history lesson as a kid, and she never wrote the novel. She was too busy playing history of the world. But then going to write a novel, it's difficult because you've got to plot it out. But then as you start writing, everything starts changing. I look at it as an album, like you can have a concept album where all the songs thread together into a concept, right? It's like, okay, we're going to Mars or something. Here's songs about us beaming up to Mars. And then I'm still on Twitter mode, see. But then, but there you could have an album together, which was just songs written in this time frame or something, right? Or a set list or a live album. But so to me, when you look at a novel, it's almost like a concept album, whereas each chapter is like a short story that is part of the greater album. What would you say of that? Well, so first of all, I wrote a novel. I am referring to it lately as my practice novel before I started writing short stories. So I, as I was leaving my legal career, I was writing a novel just to see if I could do it. And I took some classes and finished that novel and then actually revised it as part of my MFA program. So it was my MFA thesis. But even though I completed it, it wasn't published and will never be published, but it was good practice to see if I could actually do that. And then to hone my craft more, I went back to writing short stories and learned how those worked, which I think was really useful then when I came back to writing my first novel, first published novel. And it's not so much that I think of individual chapters like short stories, although they do have a lot of things in common. They should each have their own sort of structure and arc. But I started thinking about chapters in a novel more in a, it's funny you should mention going to Mars because I think of it as sort of a solar system concept. Each chapter is its own planet, basically. And you focus on only what's going on in that system, in that the atmospheric planet. And everything is rotating around the sun. But you've got this one confined piece of work, and then you move on to the next one. And they do have interaction, gravitational pull, etc, not to wear that metaphor out too much. But they have, so they're self-contained, but they do relate to each other. And so it's different from writing a short story, but it's got some similarities also. I admire people doing that. And I think short stories are hard because you have to basically put a novel into a short story, you know? Yes, quite. I just finished reading a very short novel by Claire Keegan called Foster. And as I was writing some notes on the novel, which I always do when I have finished reading a book, I discovered that it had originally been a short story published in The New Yorker in 2010. And in the old days, back then, I was writing a commentary on my blog about every short story in The New Yorker. So I went back to my blog, and sure enough, I had read this short story and made comments on it in 2010. And now it's, she expanded it apparently some years later and turned it into this still a short novel. It's only about 85 pages. But so she has turned the story into a novel. It's a tricky thing to do. You know, lots of people will take excerpts from a novel and call it a short story. But going the other way is harder. It's like doing a screenplay. It's like how many times did we say the book is better than the movie, right? Right. And then sometimes the movie turns out better than the book. And that's really, that's like, dude, no. Maybe someone had a great idea but wasn't a good writer, but you know, Hollywood knows how to take it and blow things up. You know, I don't know. But most of the time, it's the book is, you know, so that's what's always interesting. People want movies and Netflix specials off of their books and short stories, you know. But then if the movie sucks, the writer still stands out, right? It's good PR for the book. And then if everyone says, well, the book's better, the author feels that was the best bit of PR I ever got. Well, I don't want a movie out of my book, although that would be okay too, but a mini series would be good. Yeah. Because then, then it would go on and you could cover all the material in the book. That, you know, I loved, you know, growing up, I used to read a lot of like Wilbur Smith, a lot of what we, I think Nancy and I both have read every Wilbur Smith book and his writing. And then, but he would, he always had someone vomit and it was rising up the gorge. Like we would read the book just to see if he was going to use that again. And he does every single book. And I'm going, why is there always someone vomiting over the, you know, the water? Well, they do, but he's like South Africa's version of Mitchner. And he's, he's fantastic. But he had like these family sagas that went, you know, and you got addicted to what was going, it was like gossip, man. It was like total soap opera. But in his store, he taught history was very accurate about history of Africa. And so we've loved him. We loved, you know, his stories because they were very, there was almost Indiana Jones in the way too, and there a little bit of that. But it was telling the story of Africa, which was, I mean, as a continent, different places. And John Jakes has done that too, where you start to connect with those families. And then you're like, well, we need the next one, we need the next one, you know, always feel that. James Claville in Asia would be similar, I think. I talked about his books a lot because he's, you know, he's had things set in Singapore and Hong Kong and and Japan and always very addictive. So now you talk a lot about teachers and going to class about learning. So is this something that you took some classes and say, okay, I've learned, or do you still take classes? Do you, I mean, online, do you go to classes? Do you read about writing? How do you feel now, since you've done so much of it? I do read about writing a lot. In fact, somewhere on my desk here is a book. Here it is. By David Jauce, called Alone with All That Could Happen. And David Jauce is a great writer about writing. And these are wonderful essays that first appeared, and many of them in the writer's Chronicle, which is a publication of the Association of Writers and Writing Programs. So I read craft books, I read essays about writing. I'm actually rereading this because I'm teaching a class. So I don't take a lot of classes at this point, but, you know, I've been to school a lot. I used to love school. Actually, I didn't love school even through college, but after I took a break, then I was perfectly happy to go back to get a master's and then law school and then other masters and then my MFA. So I did really enjoy that. And I also enjoyed going to writer's conferences and being in workshops, which is a little different from being in class with writers who were speaking about craft. So I do really enjoyed that. And I think we can always learn. I really needed to learn at the beginning because I had no idea what I was doing. But after a couple of decades of writing, I sort of know what I'm doing, but it's always possible to get new ideas about structure and new takes on innovative styles and that sort of thing. What about just even like we have to be aware of it with the magazines and even the website how language evolves every year. Words change, slang changes. You know, do we have double spaces or not, you know, do you keep up with that? Do you care about that stuff or not? Well, slang is really hard because I'm hearing words all the time that I have no idea what they are. And, you know, I guess I don't write about the, for the most part, people who would use certain really contemporary slang, I just wouldn't be able to do that in an authentic way. You mean you can't write any emojis? I don't even text any emojis. So that's tricky. You know, the thing about the spaces is still, I can't believe it's still a controversy. There are people who refuse to switch from two spaces to one space. But when I first started out, I think what happened was I shared a draft of something with my sister, or, and anyway, she's a copy editor. And she pointed out to me the spacing thing, and she pointed out a book to me that it's a pamphlet really called A Computer Is Not A Typewriter. And that explained the whole thing about, you know, what you can do with a computer that you couldn't do with a typewriter, and especially the the spacing issue. So in about 2004 or so, I made the switch from two to one space. But, you know, it's crazy to make people still insist on on two. But in terms of words, I mean, I love new words. I try to to absorb new words. I do look things up when I come across them. And, you know, trying to find the right word is always is always an important thing and a tricky thing to do. And so I could be sitting in front of my computer for a long time, trying to figure out what exactly the right word is that I want to use. And then I'll change it later when I find another one. That's something that will go through your head a lot. How do you, and going back to typewriters, I mean, it's amazing. I think, you know, the newer generation, they're not going to know what it's like to type on a typewriter. I learned, you know, when I was 13, I was just thrown into it. You're going to type now. And I taught myself out of type, which doesn't mean it was good, but I got pretty fast. But you had to, I think you had to use your brain a lot more because you couldn't just have what you call white out here. We had tippics. I don't know what what it yeah, white out. You couldn't send a letter out with just covered in white, white out or whatever, you know, you had, you could do one, you know, but if it's a business letter, and it was just full of those spots, you had to start over, you know, and that in member stationary, remember when people had stationary, you know, like an emblem in your address and everything on it, you know, it's like, do we even know how to send a letter with an address on it? You know, I mean, and but you had to really slow down and think, and for for writers, all I can think is, wow, have things changed. You know, you think about Hemingway days or Shakespeare days. Oh, he's one of your people, Shakespeare. Do you want to meet? You know, my gosh, do you enjoy reading Shakespeare? Well, I for I haven't for a long time actually read him on the page, but in my town here in Virginia, we have a professional Shakespeare theater called the American Shakespeare Center, and it is a year round repertory company. So they are doing between eight and 12 plays a year, mostly Shakespeare, and and for quite a while, six years, I think I was on the board of trustees of the theater. And anyway, I go to every production often two or three times. So yeah, I love watching Shakespeare. I don't love reading Shakespeare. That's so funny, because Glenn Barrows, I know you'll end up on a show with him. He runs a tour company in Norfolk, where he basically, and he takes a lot of writers around to help them with their research, and he does family history and everything. And he's gonna he has a show with us every month. And the next one is on Stratford on Avon, Avon, however you want to pronounce it. And he's like, well, I'm taking this group of people. And he goes, you know, I hated Shakespeare in school, because they kept making me do it. And when I went to school, I went to 16 schools. And like the last five years, every school I went to was Macbeth. So I knew Macbeth. I won awards for being a witch, which Nancy's not surprised about, but I, you know, I was a good witch. And well, not not nice, but I'm not like the Wizard of Oz. But, you know, we were both talking about this. And now as interviews coming up on Shakespeare, and I'm like, we're gonna both have to get back in We have to go back to high school, I think, you know, and I wonder about when we learned Shakespeare in high school, if they, if you didn't have the right teacher, you could just be in deep water, you know, learning that. Yeah, I think that's right. I'm, you know, I'm sure we read when I was in high school, we read a couple of Shakespeare plays, probably the big ones, probably tragedies. And then I took Shakespeare class in high school with some somebody who was a pretty famous Shakespeare professor. And then when I got to grad school in English, I also, I don't think I don't remember if I had to take a Shakespeare class in grad school, but I did have to write about Shakespeare on my comprehensive exams before I finished my program. And so, you know, I knew how important it all was, but I didn't really start to appreciate it until I moved here. And so for the last 21 years, I guess, 22 years, I've been seeing Shakespeare constantly all year long. And it's great. I think it helps when you see a performance, and then you read it. Absolutely. So, you know, they bring a lot of student groups to this theater for student matinees. And I think it's a great way to, to help people understand, help kids understand Shakespeare in a way that they just wouldn't. Reading it on, on the page. It's, it's so, it's difficult to follow even when you see it produced. So you need to know what's going on, but, but these, these actors make it so enjoyable that it's, it's definitely worthwhile. I think you're really right about knowing what, what's going on first when we were in South Africa, and seeing I went to a production of Aida in Cape Town. And there was intermission, and this was going on, and it was in language. At one point, they had some part in Dutch and Italian or something was going on. We had no clue. We're sitting there in the theater, looking at each other, like, and then starting, you know, you could get the giggles, and I'm just saying this was just not a good idea. And you know, I was a kid, I was like 13, and I'm squirming around, and I'm looking at, and then the costuming was cool. And I think they brought like an elephant on stage, like an Indian elf, like something crazy happened. So intermission comes and we're like, well, thank God, that's over. It was intermission. We thought it was over because it was going for so long. We left, and then we saw everybody go back in, and we're like, oh well. So, and then later, I start, I'd now get it, but you know what I mean, if you don't know, and you hear, you see this famous title that everyone should know, and you go, oh, we should go because that's like this famous play when you go there, and you have no clue what's going on. We didn't have Google, you know, middle of Africa, but Cape Town is a very full of art city. It's just awesome. But let's go back to the other people that you would invite to a dinner party. Herman Hesse, am I pronouncing Herman? Herman Hesse? Hesse, okay. I've never heard of him. Really? So, he won the Nobel Prize in '52, maybe 1952. So, I don't remember the year because I wasn't around. But so, I first started reading him in high school. We were assigned, I think we were assigned Siddhartha. So, it's basically a personalized version of the life of Buddha. And then, when I really sort of fell in love with his work, I read, still in high school, a very short novel called Demian, which is kind of a spooky book. And then on and on and on. So, he was a German writer, lived in Switzerland for a long time, ultimately died in Switzerland. And he, at least for people my age, became sort of a cult figure. Young people especially would read books like Siddhartha and Demian. I've heard of Siddhartha, yeah. And then there are a few others that were really huge. But at this point, I've read all of them. And I think he wrote 20 novels, plus poems and essays. So, he's, when I read him in high school, he's really the writer who made me want to be a writer. Oh, wow, that's cool. That's cool. How come you went into law before writing? When I graduated from college, I knew that I wanted to write, didn't really know how to do it. I went to, I started graduate school just because I didn't know what else to do. And so, I was doing that, but I was sick of school at that point. So, I needed a break. And I mentioned taking a break earlier, which really saved my life, I think. So, I joined the Peace Corps, and I was in South Korea in the Peace Corps. And so, what happened was I really fell in love with the idea of an international career. So, when I came back, I looked around to see what kind of international career I could do. And being a lawyer really stood out as a way in to doing international work. And so, that's why I went to law school and was fortunate then to get a job with a big law firm that did international work. And so, that's what took me in that direction. Wow. And to do law, I mean, law school is not easy, man. No. I have to say that I think that one of the things that made it work for me was because I was already a writer of academic papers, having gotten a master's in English, and being the writer is important for success in law school, but also in practicing law, because that's really what lawyers do, is they write. So, I enjoyed law school. I mean, that really got me, I mean, I was there for a reason. I wanted to learn international law. I wanted to have this international career. And finally, I had some real direction in my life. That's, you know, what's interesting too, I mean, law means attention to detail, right, to be good at it, and to be able to go through law school and pass the bar. That's ours. That's dedication. And you have to show up. You can't, you can't slack, right? And so, as a writer, do you have a lot of discipline to have like a daily discipline to write, to make things happen, or do you just write when you feel like it? I mean, how does that work? There's theory, and then there's practice. So, I, you know, I really think that I should be disciplined. So, I mean, I come to my desk every morning, and I, and I do something. I'm supposed to be writing. I end up, you know, I start doing a Sudoku first, just to get my, my brain awake. But so, in theory, I'm working like a real job, mostly in the morning, and then doing other things in the afternoon, editing, or reviewing books, or all the other things that I do as a writer. I do think it takes discipline. I, I think at this stage of my life, I am more easily distracted than I, than I used to be. So, I've got a lot going on. I think that's my excuse. But that's okay. I mean, you, you, it's not like you are on your first book or your first story. You know, you've got quite a library building up. You're going to have your own bookshelf soon, you know. So, and I'm excited that you're, you know, working on more. That's good. Now, let's talk about Michelle Obama. She's coming to the dinner party, too. Yes. She's, she's going to make sure you have fresh vegetables, and fresh fruit, and eat healthy. Yeah, she won't take any grief from anybody. So, she won't let you have extra pudding, either. So, I mentioned in the Q&A that we worked at the same law firm. And so, she was a junior associate when I became a partner. I became a partner in, of the firm in 1990. And she was working in Chicago, and I was in 1990. I was in Los Angeles, and, and then moved back to Singapore. But the story I tell is that I, on my visits to the main office in Chicago, I must have met her, right? Because, of course, even though she was in a completely different department, I think she was in the intellectual property department of the law firm, and I was in the banking and commercial law group. So, in theory, I forgot what your Barack Obama was. He was a summer associate at the firm also. But, yeah, I can't claim that I met him, but I'm pretty sure I met Michelle at some point. I liked it when he met Anthony Bourdain. I thought that was pretty cool just to chill out. And this in a little cafe restaurant, I think he was in Asia somewhere, actually, when I think back to that episode, when he met Anthony Bourdain and sat in the head of beer. And I'm like, this is cool. Like, just like total street food, kind of, you know, not anything fancy and lottie-dough, what you would think with a president, you know? Yeah. Well, I think Barack is having a pretty good life at this point, not having to worry about all the nonsense. Yeah. Well, yeah, I think, yeah, I wouldn't want to be president right now. I wouldn't want to be running for President Dieter. My gosh. I think, yeah, that's kind of changed. I mean, it used to be if you, you know, people said, well, you never know if your child might end up being president. Well, I don't know if we want that for anybody. But Michelle, you know, Michelle is really great. I was a big fan of Obama, Barack Obama, and having a woman like Michelle as the first lady was really pleased with because I thought she was very classy and very smart, obviously, having a professional background like she did gave her really the tools to to make a difference. And she really, she really has. And then, of course, they seem to have raised a couple of amazing daughters. And so that's great. I've got a lot of perspective. Yeah, I would like to meet her at a dinner party, too. You know, they've traveled a lot. And then just, you know, again, just very professional, very full of life lessons, you know? Very knowledgeable. It sounds like her family, her upbringing, I know, was a rich or anything, but was really real and full of value, you know, in morals. I think it was just a, yeah, she's pretty outstanding. But very cool, Cliff. We can't wait to hear when you come back. I know you're going to be traveling over into Europe and doing some research for your next book. So, I mean, that's hard work, isn't it? Going to traveling for research? Yeah, but somebody's got to do it, right? So, I'm not, you know, the last book, the last part of Paradise set in Singapore, I did some really hardcore research for that. I went to Singapore and and spent a couple of weeks in the National Library of Singapore, really looking at historical documents, which were relevant to to the plot. This trip, like the last, my last couple of trips to Europe, are more atmospheric, experiential. I'm not really looking for anything specific, but I just like to walk the streets and people and get a feel for the place. You know, it's basically being a tourist, but calling it research. It sounds good. It's a tax write-off, right? I love it. I love it. Everyone, we've got again, you've got the Q&A. You can link from the get the link in the episode notes, whether you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook or listening on Spotify. Just check out the episode notes and also go to CliffordGarstang.com. You can get his books everywhere you get books, and if they're not in your local bookstore, you know what to do. Go knocking, call them, tell them, tell them about Cliff, say Cliff sent you. Thanks so much, Cliff. It's been fun. Thank you, Lisa. It's great as always. Thank you for listening to Big Blend Radio. Keep up with our shows at bigblendradio.com.