Big Blend Radio

Author Wendy Lyons Sunshine - Tender Paws

This episode of Big Blend Radio's "The Pet Connection" Podcast features award-winning author and journalist Wendy Lyons Sunshine who discusses her new book, "Tender Paws: How Science-Based Parenting Can Transform Our Relationship with Dogs."

Full of illustrative cases and thoughtful insights to support dog welfare and inspire your own pet parenting journey, "Tender Paws" explores parallels between human and canine research; delves into attachment theory, the effects of trauma, parenting styles, and sensory issues; and offers strategies that meet the needs of all dogs — often in unexpectedly simple ways. Out now, "Tender Paws" reveals why love alone isn’t always enough and how evidence-informed parenting practices can help. More: https://www.wendylsunshine.com/

Big Blend Radio's PET CONNECTION Show is cohosted by Angela Laws, veteran pet sitter, and community manager at https://www.trustedhousesitters.com/

This episode also featured on Big Blend Radio's "Nature Connection" Podcast Channel. Follow the "Pet Connection" podcast at https://pet-connection.podbean.com/

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Duration:: 49m
Broadcast on:: 15 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Welcome to Big Blend Radio's Pet Connection Podcast, where every third Wednesday we celebrate our furry, feathery, and scaly friends. Welcome everybody! Today we're very excited to welcome Wendy Lyons Sunshine, who doesn't want that name, right? She is joining us. She is an award-winning writer and journalist. She co-authored The Connected Child, "Bring Hope and Healing to Your Adoptive Family." It's a best-seller, and it's been translated into all kinds of languages around the world, and she also wrote, "Racing the Challenging Child, How to Minimize Meltdowns, Reduce Conflict and Increase Cooperation." So what is she doing on our show, The Pet Connection, today? Angela, don't we kind of think that animals and pets and children go hand in hand in a way, wouldn't you say? Oh, absolutely, I mean, they say that a dog is the equivalent to a two-year-old, and we bring them into the family, and even more so these days, they are part of the family. And so I think if we have all the tools that we have in order to give them the ability and the option to live their best lives, and that in turn allows us to live our best lives with them, because who wants to have a challenging child or a challenging pet on your hands, that you don't know how to deal with? Exactly, exactly. Well, Wendy wrote a book called "Tender Paws," how science-based parenting can transform our relationship with dogs, and I think this all got started when she got a rescue puppy. So welcome, Wendy, how are you? I'm well, Lisa, delighted to be here with you and Angela. Yeah, good to have you on the show, and I want people to know that they can keep up with you on your website, wendysunshine.com. And yeah, you bring us all sunshine today, right? We like this, it's your season, it's summer. You know, tell us a little bit about the first two books before we get into dogs, because from what I was reading, you were, you know, going to your own books for help with your puppy. Exactly. Exactly. It was an interesting confluence of events where just circumstances were, I had been reporting for some local publications and met some wonderful experts who did wonders with children that had been struggling, and these were adopted children from overseas or special needs kids from local foster families, and so the experts, Dr. Karen Purvis and Dr. David Cross, had asked me to help them write a book to get their message out there and help more families. And what happened was when I got our puppy and was struggling, and I was in one of those moments of desperation, and the training guys weren't really helping me because this little puppy was just so out of control, it was not a matter of teaching her how to sit or anything, it was like trying to put her collar on without getting bitten and scratched. So I thought, well, you know, I'm like a parent who's at my wiz end, maybe there's something in this parenting wisdom that will get me out of this pickle that I'm in, and I went back to the book and looked at it with, you know, replacing the word child with puppy in my mind wherever I read it, and it just completely, it was this big aha moment when I tried an experiment and approached the puppy slightly differently after reading through the book and getting ideas, and lo and behold, it just transformed our relationship. It was this breakthrough that I'd been hoping for, and as time went on, these parenting guidelines really helped me bring out the best in that little puppy, and later, with later rescue dogs, I happened to be working on another parenting book with other wonderful folks. And sure enough, everywhere, you know, the message, the underlying messages were so really valuable. And things like, you know, have patience, and recognize their developmental needs, and that think about behavior as communication, and instead of thinking about naughty, think about what needs are being expressed, and it sounds sensible when you think about it. But when you're in that moment of panic and horror, everything's going wrong with the dog, that was not first on my mind, I have to admit. So it was a long journey till I woke up and realized, oh, for goodness' sakes, there's really some connection here, and parenting techniques can help us with puppies and dogs. I agree. I mean, I look at, well, number one, I look at them as being just as important as human beings. And children don't necessarily have a voice when they're really young, and they don't know how to have a voice for why, like when, you know, Angela is saying for two years old, two year olds, you know, they don't have a voice, and that's part of the hardest part. I always think veterinarians have a harder time than human doctors, because dogs don't have a voice, parrots have a voice, and you never know what's going to come out of their mouth. But you know what I mean? So trying to get onto their level of what they're trying to say, it's the same thing as like, when you come home and you have a baby, it's like, whoa, what are they trying to say? What are they trying to do? How are they feeling? And trying to get onto their, you know, their connection, their level. I know Angela, Nancy, and I do a lot of pet setting and deal with a lot of different dogs in different situations from different backgrounds. And when you first meet them, it's completely all about them. It's their focus you try to get on their level. I mean, you do that too, Angela, right? You get down on the ground with them, too. Oh, yes. I mean, I don't ever walk into a home, whether that pet knows me or not. I don't ever walk into a home and stand and go over them or anything. I come down to their level, the same as you were with a child. You come down to the level of a child. And I think that now, what is so wonderful about the conversations that we have these days is we have become more aware. And I think that awareness, it's like knowledge is power, and we don't want to have power over anything but power for ourselves to know the right things to do. And when we look at it, you know, there's a movement, as you well know, and about how we actually help pets visit the vet, for example, and there's fear free. So I think that's another conversation, but it's all about, you know, managing and getting to the point where we understand better and that it's not a case of, you know, back in the day, children should be seen and not heard, or back in the day with children, you know, about pets, you bring them into the home and you actually think that they know exactly what they need to do because you know what you want them to do, but they don't. And so this is, I mean, these conversations are so, so important, even if it just gets people mindful and thinking that there is another way. Exactly, and I love that in your book, you know, that you, everybody again, Tinder pauses the book and it's out now through HCI books and they always have amazing books. You give like actual cases for people to, you know, kind of find themselves and their dog in there, right? So you give cases and then some insights to really get to, for people to understand. And this is really part of when you think about rescuing dogs and adopting dogs and puppies. So many end up back at the shelter, like you were saying, at one point you're going to think of just taking them back, right? And so this cycle continues because of people not, you know, they, I know there, a lot of times they're obedience trained beforehand, but then they're still going into a new setting and they are adopted just like you were talking about with children in your previous book. So Wendy, with that, do you feel like you're, you're helping that void of stopping the cycle of shelter pets and having them, you know, continually be displaced? I would love it if that, if I could contribute to keeping pets in their home and well understood and cared for and appreciated, you raised something earlier, I think it was Angela said something about fear free and I want to bring a circle back briefly to that because that raises a really key issue that helping a little one feel safe. And so it's not just a matter of we know they're safe, right? We know that they're going to have food, they're going to have a shelter over their head, you know, that thunderstorm is not going to hurt them. We may know they're safe, but they don't know it and they don't feel it and especially if they have a background of some kind of trauma or being moved from home to home, there's a lot of, you know, fear that's become hardwired almost and it's going to take some real effort on our part to help them develop trust in their new situation. So this is true for kids and this is true for puppies and dogs and although I will say that puppies go through different kind of growth spurts where they are doing, they're doing natural normal developmental things like being a little wild and testing the world with their teeth and their paws and actually I was fascinated to learn that kids when you think about a kid's young kids, they'll put their mouth on everything too, right? That's normal and that's part of development, that's part of the nervous system, understanding the environment and what you can and can't do and what's out there. So dogs go through these periods where they've got a lot of energy and then perhaps hormones kick in after they're not so cute anymore and they're getting more to that gangly adolescent stage and that's where we see a lot of returns to the shelters because, you know, just like it's not so easy to parent a teen, a human teen, we have to try to remember and have some grace for these little, you know, creatures that we've brought into our home that they're going through some changes and they are testing to get some independence, they want to gain some control in the world but they also still want that secure base to come back to, they still need to feel safe and so that's the challenge for parents to balance that kindness with some appropriate limits and guidelines and whether that's just making sure that there's a baby gate up so they can't go, you know, haywire through the whole house. The other thing, I loved learning some of this research, what it shows you for kids who have like ADHD types of impulses, exercise is super important, super important, well, the same thing goes for dogs, there's research where they compare dogs to having, like having ADHD and they show that especially for male, young male dogs, if they got over two hours of exercise a day they had much less of this problem behavior, they were calmer and, you know, much easier to handle. So I think some of the big challenge that we're seeing in our homes today is that our lifestyle just makes it harder for dogs to get that exercise and natural exploration of the world they need, if they've been cooped up all day and this is their big chance to interact, well, you know, they may be a little wilder than we're comfortable with and through no fault of their own, so, but we can help them. Yeah, I mean, dogs love to, I mean, it's healthy for us to get out there and walk dogs, period. Like, I always say, if you want to have a healthy life, get a dog, maybe get two, you know, because then it's not all on you and the dog, right, so that two can, can be there for each other, but walking dogs, I mean, you can see them smell, they, and, and walking in your neighborhood, if that's possible, because then they know their surroundings, they understand it's that dog of crown the corner that they walk by every day, the one that's barking and they understand the difference of a bark. They're their own community, dogs in a neighborhood have their own language and they know what's going on. They know more than what we do. They know the UPS man before he's gone through the gated gate, you know, the gate at the front of the gated community, they know he's coming because one will start and it will go right through the entire community and the dogs know, you know, and they all stand at attention, you know, it's just that kind of thing. So I think it's them also just finding their place and community and not, and being understanding like if a dog is always kept inside and never sees what's outside their home, that's kind of odd. I mean, we don't want to do that as humans. Do you want to be trapped in a room all day? Like really, animals are supposed to run and have fun, just like us humans. So I think the walking of dogs, it's everything, it is absolutely everything. And one part I wanted to really touch on Wendy with you is the point is parenting, and I think that's important and everything you're saying is about being a parent, not necessarily the obedience trainer saying sit, stand, walk, all of that, right? It's about parenting, which means you're actually having that communication. So that's where, you know, obedience, you already, like if you even say the word obedience, don't we all go, no, don't do that to me, it's kind of a negative word, you know, whereas parenting means nurture and kindness. And a dog like a human, a kid will tend to listen versus obedient. I don't like the word obedience. Yes, you bring up a great point because it's about the relationship, right? It's a different type of relationship when it's a parent with a child because there is some mutual interaction. It's the parent has ultimate say, but you know, a parent can also compromise when it makes sense and a parent can help the child have fun. The parent can check and make sure that there isn't pain, you know, causing that tantrum, right? That's different than an obedience trainer. Let's say a dog is feeling very grouchy because he's got a toothache and he can't tell you he has a toothache and he might get a little nippy because if you try to touch his head because gee, that hurts. But if we come at it from an obedience point of view, well, better cut that out and you never get to the heart of what's causing it and something so simple is pain. There's some studies that show pain is behind a shocking amount of behavioral challenges. And I really like to think of it as you a parent serves as the ally or, you know, they team up with the little one, right? It's them against the problem. It's not them against each other. This is really a good point. I mean, the pain part is real. You know, as a parent, you would look and see if your child is in eating well, you know, or being fussy with food. They're like, oh, they're being fussy. Well, a lot of times it is a tooth pain, especially in elder dogs. Or if a dog is not, you know, if they start snapping or something like that, a lot of times it has to do with eyesight, especially as dogs age, you know, I, there's a lot of issues. I remember this was years ago when we lived in England and see Angela, I think we've been pet sitting our whole life now that I think of it, you know, Nancy and I took care of a friend's house and they're two Yorkies. And these two dogs were just, they growled at everything. They were miserable and they really stank. And so the couple left and Nancy just looked and she goes, these dogs can't see. They hadn't had a trimming or grooming session for years. Their hair was tied under. So they were basically peeing in their hair. They couldn't see out of there. They couldn't see because they had so much hair over their eyes. Hair was tied everywhere because they were just left. So Nancy got her scissors out. She trimmed their hair. These dogs were free. They were happy. They smelled a lot better. Old dog pee does not smell good, especially if you walk them in the rain, but does not smell good. They were beyond happy and they could see they did not snap, they didn't growl. They, I mean, it was night and day difference. We won't say about Nancy's grooming skills or what the couple thought when they came home. But at that point we weren't pet sitting through trusted house sitters and Angela will never do that without a pet's pet permission. But that is that observance. There's just the simplest things and a lot of people just don't realize those small things make all the difference in the world. That's a beautiful story. I love that story because I was one of the things I was going to suggest is if the dog can't see and something just touches its head out of the blue, well gosh, that would freak me out and by clearing up the vision for these two little dogs and making them more comfortable, gosh, I think they were grateful of maybe not the pet parents as much. You know, but it is about the animals. I know Angela, Nancy and I, I think Angela, don't we travel for the animals? It's more than the actual travel. It is about animals. It is. Yeah, it is indeed. I mean, you know, as pet sitters we have different motivations for doing what we want to do and we do go to some lovely locations and some lovely homes and we connect with people. But actually, first and foremost, the reason we do it is because pets are a joy and having them in our lives and if we can't have our own for one reason or another, this is the next best way to get that pet joy in our life. And I think the other thing too is, you know, we can step into those lives and we mustn't forget that people are so incredibly busy these days, you know, whether it's with families or whether it's with pet families, sometimes, you know, life takes over and unfortunately the ones that need or you think need the least attention, get the least attention and it's not always for the best reasons. My daughter, as you know, Lisa, is an emergency and critical care vet and she runs a hospital in Glasgow, Scotland. And she's been practicing now, she's 44, so she's been practicing since she left university and got out of vet school and she's gone through, you know, regular practices through and she's done many, many sort of diplomas, et cetera, et cetera, to get where she is now. And I used to get really exasperated and talk about, you know, the things that some pet parents do that I see that are so wrong and she says, "Mommy, you have to remember one thing that very often this isn't done because of neglect or bad, you know, or badness in any way, it's through, actually, you know, being uneducated and lack of knowledge and not knowing and thinking that what they're doing is the right way because that's the only way they know. And it's not until, and it's the same with parenting as, you know, as I'm sure Wendy, you will attest to, you know, life takes over and so giving those tools to people in the most practical and easiest way, but I also think there is a need for those who are going through difficult times with their pets and their families or whatever or going through difficult times need to feel supported. And I think that's one thing that is missing very often, but if you're in a community of like-minded people, and there's nothing wrong in asking for help. There's nothing wrong in asking, you know, is there a better way to do this? One of the things that I see on a regular basis when I go in and care for dogs in particular is overgrown toenails and that's one of the things that, you know, and it's not because of anything to do with, you know, sort of being even cruel using that word is wrong, but you know what I mean, it's just that it doesn't, it's not always right there and it's not always something that you have the time to take care of, but it's like everything else. If you get into the right routine and you're using the right practices, it becomes second nature and that makes it easier, but I think the other thing to stress too is it's not just better for your pet family member. It's better for you because the ultimate goal is that you both enjoy life, not one more than the other, but the ultimate goal is that you walk through this life together in the best way possible and when you've got, you know, one of these souls that comes into your lives with so many problems, having these tools with which to help them get through it is also another, you know, another way that we won't get dogs surrendered because they can't be coped with at home once you've been adopted. Oh, I love it. That's why Wendy's got an awesome book, "Tender Pause." Yeah. Wendy, anything on that? I mean, regarding having those tools and that really saved you is going to what you've written for kids. Yeah. Well, one of the things that might be helpful for people is the acronym that I came to up with. I use the term HEARTs, H-E-A-R-T-S, to remind me of what dogs need and how we can parent them. This works for these techniques work for kids, they work for dogs. It's simple and the first one being age is heal the body as you all are talking about even an ingrown toenail can make you miserable or too thick and we look for those things. They creep up on us because nails don't grow overnight, they grow quickly and like our own nails, sometimes they suddenly you realize they're hurting, but whatever it is. So, with kids, we're thinking HEARTs, H-heal the body. The E is engage and optimize the brain and we do that through giving physical activity, what we call in dog training terms enrichment, like sensory things. This could be choose, this is the opportunity to read the news, the odors outside in the community, that's what they consider the news and so that's engaging and optimizing the brain. A would be appropriate environments with felt safety and that just acknowledging that the animal has to feel safe, it's not whether we know they're safe. The R is respectful and secure relationships and so we can show respect to the dog and we of course want them to respect us, but we also help them trust us so they feel secure in our presence and then we get more cooperation because it's voluntary. There's a pleasure in being together, so for HEARTs, we've now a T, that would be teach sensitively and positively and I didn't use the word training here because we're thinking like children and just like with kids you teach, in the course of life parents teach children how to do all sorts of things and in our life with our dogs, we're going to teach them through the expectations we set up, through we show them when we get cooperation. Really great things happen and we encourage them and make it fun to cooperate. And the last is S is support the individual because individuals do have unique needs. There may be some who just get more nervous in certain situations, maybe they're sound sensitive or maybe they're hitting adolescents and they need that extra understanding and space to grow up but still have guidance and affection as appropriate. So putting all those together, the HEARTs, we can bring our HEARTs to parenting. I love that, because I think when you change the narrative, you change the mindset and just changing those words from, as you say, teach rather than train can make all the difference in the world. I love the teach as well because it also is, there's a consistency to it and it's warm. So it's kind of interesting how we look at words. I know you're a journalist, Wendy, so you understand that. It's so important. I mean, it's like I was saying, obedience is just like kind of a go sit in the corner. You've done something wrong versus what you're talking about. And even the title tender pause, I mean, care, nurture and nurturing and caring is not just a one off thing. It's consistency in it. And to being a parent, it's not just a one off thing. It's being a consistent parent. Like every time with a young child, are you going to, you know, when you go to cross the street, are you going to teach them how to cross the road carefully, you know, if you're cooking in the kitchen and your child goes towards the stove, a hot stove, each time, aren't you going to kind of reinforce the same thing so that language is always there. It's that consistency. So when you were going through all of this, you know, between the kids and your puppy, did you notice consistency being like a very important part of that relationship? And consistency is certainly the goal. But I was very reassured to learn that you don't have to be a hundred percent perfect. You can, if you fumble, sometimes you can get right back on it and do a redo or a do-over. Just like we can give the kids or dogs the opportunity correct, we can pick up and get back on track ourselves because there will be days where we might be particularly tired or work was harder. And maybe we are not immediately as consistent as we'd like. But that doesn't mean we can't stop for a moment and think, oh, let me take a moment and get myself centered. And let's start this all over. And let me remember that we have a beautiful relationship here. And let's cherish that and celebrate it. Perfect. Because we're human and we make mistakes all the time. We have a transformational -- she's always saying -- we make mistakes. We need to forgive ourselves and forgive others. That is how it is. Remember that. And animals are certainly animals and human too in that way. So it's kind of -- if your puppy pees on the carpet consistently, you've got to just get better at that communication, right, and don't hurt the puppy over it. We've seen so many different ways of training a puppy. People rubbing their noses in it and all kinds of stuff. Oh, yes. And I grew up with a parent who suggested some of those methods. But really, what message is the puppy getting? They're not necessarily getting the message that you think you're sending, unfortunately. Even though somehow we think they are, they may just feel like, oh, dear, when this person's here, scary things happen to me. But if we look at the needs, the puppy perhaps just needed to go out more often. You know, and maybe we're asking too much of them at that particular moment. Or maybe there's a medical reason why that puppy has difficulty holding in. Another reason is they're just downright scared because dogs sometimes pee out of fear. Absolutely. They're all kinds of things, yeah. I was kidding, because people -- there's a loudness that happens in homes that we're always kind of shocked at, especially if you have kids. And I think if you have kids and you have a puppy, that always seems great. But if you've seen how your kids are treating the puppy, and we've seen it, and sometimes I think we give when families go on vacation, they leave us with their animals, their animals are like, I loved my family, but y'all, I need a break. I need a break from the kids pulling my tail and my ears and everything too. And a lot of dogs put up with it, but they do need a break. But sometimes the tone of voice can make a dog pee, can make them nervous, but there's also a submission where people think the dog is being really sweet, and there's no problem, but it's actually a submissive act. Some dogs like here where we are, Zora will roll on her back with little alvinies. She wants her belly rub, but you know what, she really wants her belly rub. She loves her belly rubs. That's her thing with so many. Some dogs, when they roll on their back and show their belly, it's a submissive, don't hurt me kind of reaction that we've seen. Right, and the real gift that we can give our dogs is learning a little bit about body language and becoming attentive to, are they really stiff in their postures, or are they loose and relaxed? Because they're rolling on the back with their legs sticking up like they're dead, and very stiff, they're scared. But if it's wiggly and relaxed and they do it voluntarily and come up to you and make sure you get your hand on their belly, well, if we become attuned and mindful, we start to really notice the distinction between those behaviors. But you're right, especially with kids, because kids can, they're unpredictable too, and what they do in the dogs, they have a lot of patience, but even their patience can run out. Yeah, Angela, have you seen those kind of cases too for you going in and how a dog sometimes need a break? Yeah, and it's like a house can be really, really noisy, and then when we go in and there's just one of us and we're relaxed and everything else, you see them physically, relax. And yeah, I'm brilliant. We all do. And I think another thing too, and I don't know if you agree Wendy, is that every animal is different. It doesn't matter if you are somebody who's had labradors all of your life and you would never have another breed, because that's what you prefer. If you go out and you bring one labrador into your family, the next one you bring in is going to be have some traits that the first one had, but they're all different, and they all react differently. And yes, they may have that disposition that you love and the quietness and the traits, but they're all individuals, and I think that's one of the things that sometimes is missed. I've been owned by six spring of Spaniards in my life, and each and every one of them, the one thing they had in common was they would run and run and run, and I would take them out for three hours at a time, bring them home and after a drink of water, they want to go for another three hours. And that was the common denominator between them, but their personality is the way they learned, the way they interacted were totally different. Their ears, all of them had the softest ears and the softest heads, and they all would run for hours, but they were all different individuals, just as our children are totally different from the same mum and dad. So I think, you know, I think you've got to be a clever pet parent, and you've got to be patients is a virtue very much so. Yes, it's so true that there's such variation within families and with dogs and litters. It's like I've spoke to breeders of service dogs, and these breeders, they take great care to have the certain kind of results and dogs that are comfortable doing certain kinds of tasks, but the rate of dogs that actually succeed in those roles, you know, it's like 50/50. Yeah, absolutely. And that's just an example of how individual dogs are. I just laugh because I remember taking home one of my early dogs and couldn't believe I took out a tennis ball thinking this is going to be great fun for this dog. This poor dog, it would like bounce on his, she just had an old fluke, what to do with a ball? It's like, why are you throwing this thing at me? What is, you know, what's wrong with you? I never met a dog so uninterested in a tennis ball in my life, it was comical. Wow, that's, you know, but that's the thing. They're all individual, and that's the joy of having those relationships, you know, and sometimes we see from pet parents, their pet will pass and move on to the next, go over the rainbow bridges, we all say, right? And I know, Angela, you're trained in that, in grief, you know, of loss from your pet pal, and some people don't realize how much they're pet after. That's an interesting thing where you don't realize how much of a relationship you've developed with that puppy, or that dog, or that cat, you know, that parrot, you know, until they're gone. And so I hope people, you know, when they read your book, it's, will be more conscious of it so that they can live even fuller in the present moment about their dogs and their cats. It's true, but it's just don't, don't wish that you didn't get it when you, when you had your pet in your life, you know what I mean? Because I think we just, we developed these relationships subconsciously, and just if we could add that extra dose of consciousness, it becomes an even fuller relationship. And yeah, I love, I love that you've written this book because I think it's necessary with all the rescue pets that we have sat for over the years, just in taking care of even ourselves. It's always been a slow road, and it's a patient road, and it's a good thing to learn. Patience is a virtue, which really is. And so I think you've really done something great by writing this book, Tender Paws. So thank you. Lisa, it's lovely, and I love what you and Angela do with, you know, going into people's homes and supporting them in their journey with their dogs. And that's, you know, we're all on this journey, and we can take time for each other and appreciate each other. It's all the better for us. It truly is. And just sort of reflecting on what you said, Lisa, about, you know, when you lose a pet family member, one of the things that we don't think about, and we only think about it when they've gone, because the only four-hour pets have, is that they're not with us long enough. That's the only one they have, is that when we have, in our family, our human family members, while they're in our lives, and they are, you know, they're part of us, they don't stay with us 24 hours a day, seven days a week, which is what our pets do. Our pet family members, they're the reason we get up in the morning. They need to go out pee, they need their food, they need their exercise. It doesn't matter whether it's a dog, cat, horse, pig, whatever it is. They cannot do any of that for themselves, and so that's our responsibility, and that's where we bond, and that's where that, they become so integrated with us, and so part of our being, and our lives, that we don't notice it, but they are there 24/7. They don't go off and get boyfriends, and girlfriends, and go off and get a job and go out for the day, and then come back and say, "Where's my dinner?" They're there for their dinner, and they don't leave, they're actually there. And so when they are no longer with us, our lives change in a hobby. They change to the point where that purpose is gone, that focus is gone, that bonding and that interaction and that relationship is gone, and it is often devastating to the point of even more profound than losing a human family member, and anybody who's listening to this that sort of will go, "Oh, that can't be right." For each individual, it's different. Everybody, we loss and grief is different for everybody, we deal with it differently, but our pets there are there 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and they give us more than we give them, I believe. And so when somebody like Wendy comes along and gives us those tools and writes a book like this, it enables us to be better at what we think we're good at already, and also rescue pets, we know, we don't know their history, we don't know where they come from, we don't know what's happened to them, all we know is they're lost souls looking for somewhere to live their best lives out, and if we can help them do that, then we aren't just doing it for them, we've been doing it for ourselves, and we're doing it for everybody else who absolutely realises that this planet that we live on, we share it, it's not ours, every living creature is part of that, and if we all, you know, look out for one another, then we will all be in a better place. I agree, I really agree, and when you take in a rescue dog and you don't know, it takes time in that patience word again, because they have to learn to trust you, and you have to learn to trust them too, I mean to me I automatically trust all animals just in that I care about them, but you have to learn each other's mannerisms and give them time to come up to you. Like an abused animal is like, you know, dealing with a cat, a cat is going to come to you before you go to the cat most of the times, you know, so it's, we really don't know, like here where we are, we're taking care of little Trixie and Zora and Trixie has had some kind of something in her life, you don't just walk through the door and pet her head, she needs to come to you and she wants to be low down, and she communicates in a different way, but once she starts to trust you, it is, you just, it brings tears to your eyes of joy that, wow, we've crossed this bridge, you know, wow, this has happened, you know, it's beautiful, and they trust, when they start to trust in you, you've got to deliver, man, these are like babies, you know, they are like kids, Wendy, before you go, I wanted to ask, I know that you are trained in the LEGS, legs applied, ethology model of family dog mediation, I have no clue what that is, can you tell us? Sure, happy to, this is an approach developed by a wonderful trainer called, whose name is Kim Brophy, and she comes at dog training with an extra dimension of ethology, and what that is, is really studying animals in their natural, genetically, evolutionarily developed behaviors and impulses and needs, and the LEGS stands for learning, environment, genetics and self, and it's her way of looking at kind of 360 degrees of holistically of what influences an animal's behavior, and one of the reasons I was happy to train in this method is because if you, it takes a philosophy, if you meet innate needs proactively, then you have so many less problems later, and the premises that many of the, what we call, quote, behavioral problems are actually a result of unmet needs in some form, especially in dogs, which are essentially many of them, it's like they're captive in our homes, you know, it's taking a perspective of what, how can we improve their welfare by recognizing what's important to these animals, and legs also even goes and looks at the individual breed groups, because just like I love that Springer Spaniel story where they just go and go and go and go for hours, well they were bred to be really sturdy and resilient out in the field doing their jobs, and that's how you see it, and sometimes people get upset and they feel a dog is misbehaving because he won't calm down or we won't, you know, or a terrier wants to just won't stop digging after that little mouse in the field, or, you know, or the, well, that's, that's, we set them up to have that drive and have that goal, and that's part of their natural aesthetic programming. So if we're really going to, you know, part of being, to me, a part of being a successful pet parent that supporting the individual is really understanding what, you know, what drives that individual, what, what they enjoy, what their, what their talents are, and that's where I think legs, the legs model comes in. Family mediation is a way of saying, we're negotiating a relationship here. This is not just about obedience. This is, we're, we're meeting, it's sort of like a court order mediation for a family, you know, that might be splitting up. So Kim, Kim Brophy, like the idea of a family dog mediation, because she sees herself as going into a home and trying to set up a win-win for everyone, and that's integral to the hearts method and tender pause as well, it's just all, it's very in alignment, those kinds of philosophies. We're trying to work with what's there and honor what's there and have the best outcomes for all. Sometimes that means recognizing that maybe our home isn't the right home for a dog that runs three hours a day and wants just a drink and go back three hours, you know. If we live in the city, for example, maybe that's true. Yeah, I mean, I remember taking care of a dog, a big golden, the big doodily do, you know, he was huge and he was a puppy. And so they during COVID got this dog, they are elder and they were not physically able to walk the dog as far because a dog would pull. And so they were losing their patience. And that's what happens. That's why I think what you've done is so important. And then she's like, well, if you get a puppy, I'm getting a cat, a kitten. So they have a puppy and a kitten in a house full, can you imagine a house that's really full of China everywhere you turn around, that was that. And the dog couldn't go in the backyard because it would fall into, you know, Florida with the canals, you know, the little waterways, well, you know. And so this dog wanted to go zoomies everywhere and I'm like, I want to go zoomies with you too, man, I need it as well. But walking was, it was a messy situation, but they got hooked up with someone who would actually, he was like the neighborhood dog cycle. And he was like, he was like a dog whisperer. He went out on his bicycle and took all the dogs and cycled and the dogs ran along the cycle, his bicycle. And that dog loved it. He was happy. And this guy fulfilled a need in the neighborhood because it was all retired folks. And here were all these puppies that people got during COVID and dogs and didn't know what to do with them. And I love it. That was like, you know, and I saw him do it too. And I was like, look at that. That is cool. You know what I mean? Because the dogs are too busy catching up. They're all around each other. So they were focused and it was really a cool thing. So there's always a way, you know, but thank you so much again for joining us. I want to get, make sure everybody has the full name of your book. Again, it is tender pause how science based parenting can transform our relationship with dogs. Again, it's by Wendy Lyons Sunshine. And you can go to her website. It's Wendy L for lions, Wendy L Sunshine and that lions is L Y O N S. So she might be coming from your side of the pond, Angela, with that kind of name. Thank you so much, Wendy. It's been a true pleasure. And we really appreciate what you've done with your work for humans and dogs. Thank you so much, Lisa and Angela. It's been a delight speaking with you. Thanks for joining us here on Big Blend Radio's Pet Connection podcast. New episodes air every third Wednesday. Keep up with us at bigblendradio.com and learn more about the world of pet sitting at trusted house sitters.com. (dog barks)