Big Blend Radio
Rita Sever - Small Organizations and Human Resources
This episode of Big Blend Radio's SUCCESS EXPRESS Business & Career Show features author, professional coach, and organizational trainer Rita Sever who discusses HR in small organizations.
Along with sharing her career background in HR, she talks about:
* When a small organization should invest in HR
* What are some of the dangers if they don't have HR
* What are some of the challenges HR face
Rita Sever is a regular expert guest on Big Blend Radio. She is the author of “SUPERVISION MATTERS: 100 Bite-sized Ideas to Transform You and Your Team,” and “LEADING FOR JUSTICE: Supervision, HR, and Culture.” Learn more at https://supervisionmatters.com/
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
- Duration:
- 47m
- Broadcast on:
- 11 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
Welcome to Big Blend Radio Success Express Show, where we talk about business, leadership, and career development. Welcome everyone. Today, we're going to be talking about HR human resources. We have organizational trainer and author, Rita Severa, back on the show. She is the author of Supervision Matters, 100 Bite-Sized Ideas to Transform You and Your Team, and her latest book is Leading for Justice, Supervision, HR, and Culture. We're so glad she's always here on Big Blend Radio, but she went overseas and said, "I'm going on vacation, y'all." And so we're going to catch up. I want to hear a little bit about it, but go to supervisionmatters.com, but welcome back. How are you, Rita? Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be back. I'm doing great. Thank you. You went away, you went to Europe, and then we had this, okay, we're going to talk about HR, the good, we've had the possibilities, right? And then you send me, "Here's all these notes." And then we're like, "We better cut this up." So I don't know. I think this vacation got your brain like going. Is that what happened? Yes. She's all fresh. She's like, "Let's go." And I'm like, "Okay, whoa, man." All right. So this is great. So we're going to talk today a little bit about HR, what it is, even, when an organizational, like should actually look at having an HR person and talk a little bit about your background on that, because that's what I think is so interesting. You talk about supervision, but it's mostly organizations, nonprofits, right, that we're looking at, which gets overlooked a lot. It's kind of like everybody just jump in, but that can get messy, right? It can get messy, and my background is in nonprofits, but most of HR, they don't care if you're a nonprofit or a business. It's the same in terms of laws and practices, good practices. So listen up, whether you work for a nonprofit or not. Okay. So that's a really good point, because really, the employee wants their paycheck on time. They want rules to be followed. We don't want harassment. We want like, we want these manuals, we want the training, we want all of that to happen. So everyone has a productive and happy work life. And then the company or the nonprofit, because it's really a nonprofit. It doesn't really matter if it's a nonprofit or not. It's about how the culture is people, right? Right. Yeah. It is interesting. I just reread to be clear for this podcast, how the idea of personnel started. And it started in the late 1800s when social worker women, primarily exclusively women at that time, started paying attention to industries and factories where women and children were being exploited. And they brought awareness and started building a practice that would support employees. And then later, it not only expanded to all different kinds of organizations, but also during the World War II, especially, they looked at bringing women into the work force in a way they hadn't been for a long time. And how do we get the most for our money? So that's how it sort of became both ordinary employees and the organization, which is part of what's tricky about human resources because you have to have an awareness of both. How to meet the bottom line, whether the bottom line and nonprofit is the mission in a for-profit, it's going to be the bottom line, the financial bottom line, but can you do that and keep employees engaged, productive, safe, happy? Well, I think even in nonprofit, it's still a business, right? You still have to look at your money going in and out. You know, you may, it is still-- It's all the ones. Yeah, and it's really, you're not paying taxes. That's the difference. That is really the difference, right? And you're working for this good cause, but we're also seeing these other kinds of corporations that are not quite a nonprofit, but they're still a corporation, right, that are for like the public good. I've been talking too much to my friend in England who works in the nonprofit sphere, and I've got like British terms in my head. So I need to watch out. I say this, but we have a lot of English people that listen to the shows too. So that's OK, but-- Right. Well, I mean, here we have B corporations and you know-- Oh, that's it. That's the term. Thank you. Right. Yes. Social sector focused, but they are corporation and privately owned. Yeah. That's interesting to think about who does what, you know, and you know that Nancy, I do our tour thing, our love your parks tour, and things are changing on that level too. And it's like, when do you make that decision? And you can be really small. So yeah, tell us like, I want to get into when does a company need HR? Obviously, if it's mom and dad running an ice cream shop, you probably don't need an HR person to go between the husband and wife. That's not going to work. Oh, that's a whole other thing, a family business. Exactly. Oh, baby, you need somebody in there to balance everybody out, but let's get to that. But let's start a little bit on your side. What led you into the world of HR and tell us a little bit about the beginnings? Right. For me, I actually stumbled into the world of HR. I did not aim for that career, but I certainly embraced it once I found myself in it. I was working for a small nonprofit. There were about eight employees. And one day the executive director came in and said, we just got this huge grant. We're going to double our staff. So we're going to have 16 instead of eight. Wow. I need somebody to hold these personnel files. Who wants to do that? That's how small grassroots organization works. We've got this many people who's going to do this new task. And I thought that sounded interesting, so I raised my hand, and I became the HR person. And then I had to figure out what that meant. And so I took classes, I found a mentor, I ended up learning a whole lot from a lot of different resources. And I decided I really love this work, and so I made it my career. I eventually got my master's degree in organizational psychology. Okay. Wow. Part of what really molded me in my career was that I was working at an organization at the time that was doing service work for people with AIDS. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was a very challenging time. Yeah. And I thought that again, people were dying, and my focus was how can we make this work for the staff? How can we support them to do this difficult? And in some ways, I was naive. I didn't know that in the real world, HR is bureaucratic and not always helpful. But I was just focused on my task of how can we be of service to our staff. And the time I was there, we grew from the aid employees. By the time I left, we had 50. Wow. And during that time, part of my work with the leadership was how can we build a culture on purpose intentionally that will support this difficult work? Part of what we did was say we need to laugh as much as we cry. And how can we do that? We played games. We did a lot to make it a very vibrant culture. And that really supported all of us to do the difficult work. And we cried. We laughed and cried together and had a container for that also. So that was really my background. And then from there, I went to a much larger organization. And they were doing, this was at the turn of the century, and they were doing a lot of what we call diversity work. So I learned about how to support that work and how to bring that into the organization. And the different cultures, and yes. And how to make our HR practices aligned with our values. So that was another whole learning. And then as you know, I became a consultant. And I supported other organizations in doing HR and supervision. And then I became a professor. I taught HR in graduate programs and in an author. So that was my art and my career. Yeah, I think it's awesome. And I think it's so important to talk about because the workplace culture has changed so much with remote work as well. So, and I think in smaller organizations, that is a tendency of like, you don't have to come to work. I have a friend who is sadly passed. And he, you know, especially during COVID, he had a nonprofit that he took over. And it was about cleaning up a community, greening it up. But also it was very much about the diversity side too. You brought that in that social justice for neighborhoods that were impoverished, that didn't have trees, didn't have the environmental stuff because it's like, you're the poor neighborhood, you don't get trees, you know, things like that. You don't get composting, you don't, you know, which means our health issues went up. And so he was really about like putting all of it. He says, if the environment needs you, we have to help the people to help the environment and vice versa, right? And his staff is like, as soon as COVID happened, no one's going anywhere, we're working remotely. And then he's like, and yet part of their makeup of their organization was they had space. And to be environmentally thoughtful, they had part of their offices, they let people come in and use. And it was also a fundraiser, right? So they had a conference room, and I know a lot of nonprofits that do this too, use the conference room when they're not using it, you know, you don't have to go build something. It's already here and just pay us a nominal fee, you know? And he was doing that and making a remote office space for people that were always on the go. Well, then COVID changed things a little bit. But he was always talking about that, and he always, you know, he's led teams internationally globally with his previous career too in wildlife conservation. And it was amazing when he left his last, not when he passed, he was with this other new organization, the one before he was with for a very long time, it was international and big. And when he left, all the employees walked because this was a, this, I don't want to get political with it, but it was a political thing that happened and had to do with somebody with ego on the other side. So, and the organization wasn't keeping to its mission, but his staff were able to work everywhere, but he kept, I don't know, he had this even just in our dealings, this personality of being there, having, he was like, he was always a text and email or a phone call away. Just pick up the phone, just do it and he will make time for you. And if he's in the call, you'll see it, he's going to finish, he's one of those people that always did that. And when stuff changed, you know, when that happened, he made sure, you know, we were connected on the others, not away from his career there. And he said, well, you know, when everybody walks, you know, there's something wrong. And that was a company shift. And how do, how do all these other, I mean, there's a good number of people that walked. And I'm always like, what happened because, well, we know that he was just amazing. He was just one of those amazing people and he followed through and he dedicated. And I think people know when you're dedicated to something and a nonprofit and even in a business, you're passionate, you're, you don't have passion without the backup or the follow up. And he did. And I just wonder about that, what really went down, I kind of know, I do know, but like, you know what I mean? It's like, what did you do as a company where you caused that? Right. Right. Somehow staff had trust in him as a leader, but not the organization as a whole. So it sounds like they were staying for him and with him and putting up with a lot probably. And when he was going, they were like, I'm not safe. Yeah. Yeah. So that's not a strong company then or organization. No, no, I send out a monthly newsletter. My last newsletter was, no one should be indispensable. Not that they don't make a difference, but that if you want the organization to be strong and not dependent on one person, then you need to cross train and build the system so it can survive if anybody doesn't show up for whatever reason. That's with any business. Right. That's like, you know, I mean, you may have to have, you know, the chef doesn't show up in the kitchen, someone's going to have to show up. Right. Exactly. That's important. Yeah. Yep. I've been in that position of the show up person going, oh, oh, but better show up than no one at all. Right. And so it's, and you work it through. And if you have the right team, you can get through anything. I really believe if you have the right attitude and the right team, you can get through anything. Absolutely. You really can. It's about communication. It's about the spirit, the passion and communication with your customers too. You have, you can go through rocky roads. But if your team doesn't follow you, right, right, and as you do, that sort of points to the question you asked before about when do you need HR? And I think it, you know, it's hard to pin down a specific number. I think it's somewhere between 12 and 20. And that doesn't mean you need a full time dedicated HR person, but you need someone who's not the leader who is watching over people and practices. And some of the signs that come up are like, are people engaged and happy? If, are they complaining a lot? If people start complaining a lot, then somebody needs to pay attention to that. And the owner, the leader, they don't have time for that all the time. They've got such a. Or the personality. Right. Exactly. You know, are they spending too much time during dealing with personnel problems where they need to be focused on leadership and where we're going and how we're going? But doesn't leadership and personnel go hand in hand though? Absolutely. They need to support it and, and ideally, whoever takes on the HR component will definitely want to work like the first person. Well, not the first person. I don't think, like you said, if you're a handful of people, then you can probably make it work. But at some point, they'll like, especially at the beginning, people come on, they're engaged, they're committed, they're excited about building something new. But maybe the second generation of employees, they don't have that same connection. And that's when they start not necessarily being unhappy or being problematic, but they just have different expectations. Oh, and the, and the people that have been there, it's like, this is how we've always done it. And new people are bringing new ideas, which means change and people get grumpy on change yet. Absolutely. And that's being a sense of us and them instead of we're all in this together. And so what any of those signs are, to me, signs that somebody who is neutral in a good way that they're not on the side of management, they're not completely bought in, they're not completely on the employees, they're for the organization. And they can help move things forward and help put out the fires before they take down the organization. So what is, what is a day like in a small organization, let's focus on small organizations, we'll get to some of the bigger ones in the next podcast, the follow up on this. But what is the day of an HR person? It's like, are you like making sure they're getting paid on time? I mean, how far does this look? Oh, oh, okay. Wait. So you know everything. You have everyone's final. Yes, the top priorities are getting people paid and making sure you're following the law. Those are the top two priorities. And after that, you know, so those involve a lot of paperwork, a lot of research, a lot of tending to details, crossing the teas and dotting the eyes. And then you want to be available to staff. I could be doing any of those things. And if an employee comes to the door, I'm going to stop what I'm doing and say, what do you need? How can I help you? And if they have a big problem, I might have to say, I really want to support you in that and I want to make sure people get paid. So give me an hour and I will come find you and making sure I follow up on that. So it's doing a lot of listening, a lot of supporting people to figure out their next steps, if they have a problem, making sure things are running smoothly, you know, developing that encryption. Okay. So the hiring and you're reading people's resumes. And then you have to be also going. The leadership and go and say, this is what I'm sorry, my mic went in and out there. Yeah, you have to go to the leadership and say, okay, like, we've got this issue. How do you want me to handle this? These are my recommendations. So you're like the gatekeeper in a way. Yes, the big picture person in terms of staff, the gatekeeper sometimes. And that hints to one of the challenges of HR is you are in a very unique position in the organization, sometimes, you know, the leader is your boss, but there are times when you have to say, hey, what you just did with that staff member was not okay. You can't yell at people colleagues. We got to figure out how to clean that up. Or maybe, you know, I'm coaching them on, okay, we've got a problem coming up and here's, you know, let's practice what you're going to say. So it's challenging. So it's a buffer. You're a buffer. You're a buffer. Yeah. And then you have to take your boss out. Right. And that could be, and he could be, or she could be one of those going, you're telling me bye. Exactly. So that was like, do you guys like, I know you retired from doing that specific position, but are you walking on eggshells for your own job to get pending on who the leader is? You could be. Absolutely. And in some places that is absolutely a critical challenge. And sometimes, you know, it's a big problem if the leader is the one harassing people and you're supposed to be stopping harassment, but they're your boss. And they say, don't hold there. That puts you in a very difficult position. And yet for me, that was a critical factor in every job was that I needed to know that the leader could work with me and respected my role. That would have the same idea of my role. And I think I would say, you know, are you open to coaching when I need to give you some stuff? And if they said no or showed me no, then I wouldn't stay at that job. Yeah, I was going to say, I'd say, yeah, you have to, I think HR people have to really choose who they want to be with, you know, because it's, it's kind of political, right? In a way. It's like you have to be bipartisan, you know, you're, you're standing up for the employees and standing up for the employer. And how do we make them all merge together? And if there's an uprising and it's like, okay, this is just somebody because one person can cause an uprising. One person could be, you know, the bad apple that makes everybody turn. But that's usually if there's some something or I'm not right, right? Some reason. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, if the leadership is not doing so well, then you have to kind of look at that, you know, absolutely and go, I'm bailing from that. I don't want to be part of this. I can't stand. You have to have integrity for self and a conscience and saying, I'm not standing up for this. And I think the Me Too movement really showed some examples, right? And it wasn't just on companies. There was nonprofits and there's some big ones that came up. I mean, I still look at this and the whole Epstein thing and all of that. I mean, I look at this going, holy cow, how many HR people kept their mouths shut and how many of them? That's exactly my question at the time too was, well, there was a lot of complicity going on. Somebody was getting paid off every, I mean, that's literally, or like you said before, they were afraid they lose their job. Yeah. And it's is challenging. And that's part of why I said HR is in many ways, a lonely position because you can't be friends with anyone on the job because if I appear to be friends with my boss, looks like I'm on their side or they staff think I'll take their side. And the same was employees, if I go out to lunch with some people and not others, then they think I won't be able to be impartial. And so very lonely position, I had to develop friendships with people outside the organization because internally I had to be aware of the perception. I could be friendly and connected with everyone, but I couldn't invite people in and shut the door. I would assume I was talking about that. And sometimes also somebody is also a hundred percent full of it and try to conure too. Like, oh, let's go out to lunch and they're just trying to smooth you over to get you on their side or something too, right? Yeah. So because there's games. Yeah. So it's, it is a challenging and a big job when it's done well, especially because it is one of the things, you know, one of the bad things that I wanted to just touch on is when staff don't trust HR, whether it's a big organization or a little one, could be 10 people. If one person has the role of facilitating HR, but they turn around and gossip about staff, nobody's going to trust them. And I want to be clear that most HR people are very well intended and walk this type job very well, but there are some that for their own preservation, perhaps, or their own personality, they can't do it. Yeah. That's, it's wild. Yeah. I mean, some people are just really creative people that start something and they know how to do that really well, but they're not good at the rest of it. Right. You know, it's like in our business, Nancy runs the books for a reason. Right. You know, I know how to do them, but that doesn't mean I should be doing them. You know, they're, I had people tell me, that's why I hired you because you can do the people's stuff. I can't. Yeah. And that's okay. We both understand that. Yeah. Yeah. I know people are like, okay, I can do this kind of thing, but I don't, don't ask me that. I'm not, I'm going to misbehave over here. And so, so then we know, don't do this, you know, that's the thing is you listen as a HR person, you listen and you can make decisions and, you know, look from that level. Wow. That's amazing thinking about it because I don't think people, they just go the HR person and then do you go to the, they have to feel confident in you to go, you know, and there's all sorts of reasons to come to you beyond the paycheck. Absolutely. And, you know, I have a section in my leading for justice book where I tell some stories about, you know, people telling me why in the world would I go to HR because they have that sense of their bureaucratic, they're, they're not helpful. If they, if I have a problem, they're just going to back up management. And that breaks my heart because that's not what HR should be. The story I ever heard was someone who actually said that the worst part of my bout with cancer was dealing with HR. And I was like, oh my God, that's horrible. Yeah. It was, you know, in a small organization, but they just could not get the support they needed. So the small, you know, small organization, which is pretty much what we're focused on, I know we'll get into it when it gets even bigger because then it's like multiple people and you can have a whole department of HR and then the HR has to watch over the HR that gets into all. So we'll do that next, but you know, just even that, you know, about paid leave or someone's died in the family and there's laws, especially California, you guys have a lot of protective laws for employees, which is great. But if you, and I, I've seen, I've seen all kinds of things, you know, just, I've seen things where a company will make all their employees say a prayer and hold hands together beforehand. And I was like, whoa, right. So, but that's probably okay if that's part of your, like, this is our company philosophy. And if you don't agree with it, don't, don't come here, right? Or well, I mean, I'm talking about a small organization because I was like in shock about that, like you're going to make people pray in your, I mean, is it just a, I mean, I think that it would be have to be very small to be able to do that because there are federal laws about discrimination against religion. And I think it can, at least at 15 employees and maybe even five, I think five actually. So it has to be very small to be able to do that legally. And even beyond the legality, is that really the culture you want to build where you're forcing people to be like minded? Oh, yeah, I'm okay with let's gather for a moment of silence before we start the day. Fine. That's a good, oh, good balance. That's perfect. But praying in a specific religion, what about, okay, so I've always been curious about this, what about churches because they're a nonprofit, right? In a different way, but now do you have to be part of their religion to apply to work for them? I don't think so, right? Or do you know that most of them are still again governed by the federal laws, even if they, there are probably some that are small enough to be able to have that, that protection for who they hire around their own religion. But not if they're getting any funding, many organizations that are religious get federal or government money to run programs, and if they have all the laws. If they don't, then I'd have to lift that up where and how they can. I'm sure there are some that can be fine. So do you, as HR do you keep up with employment law then? Absolutely. Because like when we have Ward Heinrichs, and we still need to put the two of you on the show, he's our employment attorney, California too, and he goes, no, that's HR. Don't come to me. Go to HR first. I'm the next step. And if HR does their thing, you don't come to me. Yeah, if anybody goes to the attorney, I want it to be me, not a staff member. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because it goes, he's like those steps, you know, involved. And a lot of times he's, he's all about making sure the HR department has the law, right? So is that something do you, I don't know if that's a big or small. I mean, you all have to keep up with the laws. So do you often work with an attorney or do you, is part of your job? This is like a whole other conversation that we got them, right? But as part of it, well, well, this is important because I think about people going even thinking of this career, you know, do you have to keep up with the laws or what happens? Yeah, I would go to an annual workshop to hear about the updates in the law. I would get monthly updates from my attorney and I did have an attorney that I would call when I had specific questions or I had to deal with a tricky issue and I, we worked together for many years, so I would be able to say, you know, for example, maybe I knew his response would be you have to fire this person and I would say, I don't want to fire them. What else can I do? And you would, and I want to follow the law. So they're not breaking a law or anything, but in terms of moving forward. And of course, other times, sometimes he would say, you got it. You know, I know you don't want to, but this, in this case, you have to. And he'd talk me through the steps to get there. So that was both of those are important because labor law is in many ways, the foundation of HR at this point in time, because if people don't feel safe and know that the law is being followed, then that's going to be a very hard workplace, a very challenging workplace. People are going to be nervous, you know, like me too, again, when other employees saw what was happening with people being harassed, they would not feel safe. And so that's like the bottom layer of HR. And when it happens in public, when it happens in public, your company is tarnished. Absolutely. And even also when it happens and it comes out that happened and then nothing was done. Oh, that's, you know, there are many cases where it comes out that I complain five times and nothing was done and then it does become public. That's even worse than you have to nip it in the bud and even try to get it before there's a bud. Right. Right. You know, you're kind of like the hound dog running around like I don't mean your dog, but you know what I mean? You're like, you're sniffing out like that vibe. If you can feel tension, you can just see like the one person rolls their eyes at this other employee. You already know. Okay, some things up, we need to figure out what it is and call them in. And so now I didn't, so you do the firing. I didn't know that HR did the firing. Well, I do the firing myself, but I would support the managers to do the firing and the same with hiring. I would hire my own staff, but other managers would hire their own staff. So in a small company, I might do it all, but in a, and there are other managers, then I would support them to do that the hiring thing. I mean, the firing parts got to suck. It is. It does. I always, when I talk in graduate school, I would say, if you ever get comfortable firing people, it's time to move on to a different career. Yeah. Well, remember, I told you, I think it was the last time we spoke and it was off air, a friend that works for a nonprofit and it's a nature nonprofit. And then they have a thrift store. And the thrift store supports the nature nonprofit, right? And the nature nonprofit is not doing as good as what the thrift store wants it to do. And it's kind of been fun. They have this new executive director that doesn't go to the events and speak and do she bales, right? And then decided to fire the one key person that was raising the money and fired him by email and attached everybody in all organizations in the email so they could all publicly see and see this that she fired him. Oh, that's cool. Well, what do you think he did? He went to the local newspaper with it, right? Because she also said things that he could counteract and go, well, this is, this is, you could, it was bogus. Right. So it was like, she never showed up for anything. And so my friend working there was just the thrift store. It's like a part time slash volunteer, you know, she's retired. And now she's looking at what she was really supporting was, you know, this conservation thing. Right. So now she's like, and she's kind of sticking around just to see what happens. And because she also wants to, she cares. And now she's like hoping people would get on it and get rid of this woman in the nonprofit. That's the other thing in HR, even in this really, it's a small organization. There's a few here and a few here running a thrift store. So can the HR eventually say, we need to get rid of the top dog? Because what she did was wrong, I think, personally. Right. Right. Yes. Again, that's very tricky. Online jobs, I actually worked with the board of directors because nonprofits have a board of director. And we did a dotted line on the org chart that led me to HR when or to the board when necessary. Oh, almost never would I use it? But again, I was working in partnership with my ED. And they said, that makes sense. If I do something outrageous, you need to be able to deal with that. And so that's, that's what you'd have to do is go around your own boss to the board. And if they did not support you, you'd probably have to leave because you would have burned your bridges. But that's completely. Yeah. And really on the eggshells, no matter what, how you look at it, you're in a rocky position. You're in a tricky position sometimes. Yeah. And when everything's working together for the good of the mission, then there's no eggshells. But I think it's not easy, but it's clear. But this is something, you know, we're talking about for leaders, right? And, you know, this podcast is primarily for that. It's something for also employees to kind of realize what you go through to, you know, for them to maybe realize how to maybe maneuver better. And when to go to, you know, don't wait until it gets bigger, right? Right. Right. Absolutely. But that's hard in harassment, that's hard in harassment though, isn't it? But that's part of why prevention is so critical, that, you know, if you're doing annual trainings about harassment that are real trainings, not just go online and check the box, but actually having discussions, then you're telling the staff that I mean it. I want to hear about this as soon as you're uncomfortable. And then that makes it more real, whereas if you just say check the box that you went to the training, then you're sending the message that we're just complying with the law. I don't care if you really do this or not. So that tension is important too, as well as the trust again that, you know, feel free to come to me, even if you're not sure if this is okay or not, we can talk it through together. It's interesting when we first got to this country, you know, Nancy had a magazine over in South African, you know, I worked with her and everything there. And I mean, I was young, I was like 19, I think when we got over here and went and worked in a fish and chip shop, because that's what you do when you're allergic to fish. But I worked there anyway, it was an amal in Florida, and I just needed to get my feet on the ground and everything and, you know, get my life back together. And, you know, when you leave Africa, you lose a lot. We had to get, you know, I was young enough to go, hey, yeah, yeah, whatever, you know. And there was the manager and he was a fungi and would sing and whatever. And the owner of the company was enamored by this man, right. And yeah, it was married and then she got a new car and she says, she was, but don't tell anybody I've got a new car, I don't want people to think I'm making money. And I thought, well, why, that made me feel odd right there. I think that's wrong. And anybody knows where you're, you know, she was just in this. She was almost more gossipy as an owner than everybody else. And, you know, I came from a very, you know, South Africa, you don't have time for that kind of stuff when we left, you know, it was a very straight up magazine world. You don't have time for that, right. And so she's doing that. And then this guy got a little too close, tried to kiss me here and then pinched my butt one time and I decided to quit, I quit because I just said, I'm going to leave, I decided to leave and had another job. I got a new job and moved and she was like, I can't believe it. And I mean, everybody wanted to fire me because I didn't understand American money. I had a very thick Dutch South African accent. You know, it was like, I was in shell shock a little bit when we got here, but I got another job and she was like, well, why didn't she just come and tell me? And I wanted to say, because you are fawning over your manager and I told her later what happened. And she said, well, I just wish you had told me and I'm like, would you have listened? Right. Really. Right. And again, and she kept him. She kept him. I worked at the same hall and she kept him. Yes. There you go. And that's where, you know, the perception is at least as strong as the reality. She may think she would have fired him and maybe she would have. But the bottom line was that you didn't trust that she would or that she was. I was still too new to her company too, you know, right. And so how many how many young girls does he do that too? Exactly. Yeah, that's awful. But all of this comes together for me with, you know, you want to follow the laws. You want to make sure everybody's paid and safe. But the reality is if you do all the other parts, keep people engaged and listen and you're trustworthy. All of that also keeps people safe because then they will feel like they can get help if they need it. Whereas if HR is hands off or worse, they're not trustworthy, then you're only going to hear about problems when they're big where you want to, like you said, nip them in the bud. Yeah. Get it. I mean, she should have. Yeah. That's just an example of a small company. And then when I went to the bigger company, well, we'll talk about that one next. Okay. Oh boy. Hmm. No. Talk about harassment just with a capital age. Oh boy. That company was rogue, man. It was it was drunk and rogue drunk and oh, no, it's a bunch of musicians, but you know, that was bad. Right. Physicians, money and bars. Yeah. That was bad. Oh boy. You're going to have PTSD here remembering that was like, that sounds awful. Actually, it's kind of funny, actually, when I think back, but it wouldn't. There's no way in hell they would make it now. They had so many lawsuits. And then I just was like, that's a route. You know, I left with all the, you know, I was so naive and it was a waking that woke me up too. Right. Like hello. Yeah. That's enough of that. Right. And I think they and the HR there was like a shell corporation. Yes. Exactly. That's the bad. Again, the daddy. Okay. So we're going to, we're going to deal with that next, that next month. I'm looking forward to that because yeah, you know, in a way, the small going to the big, there's no difference. It's just on a different level, but it's the same. It's about integrity at the end. Absolutely. Yeah. And what is your purpose here? Are you wanting the long game where you're engaging employees and keeping them? Or are you just wanting to make a quick bucket and you don't care if people stay or not? Mm. Yeah, that's not good on either nonprofit or business side, a quick, but doesn't. That's not excellence. No, it's not. And if you feel like they, they're cogs in the machine, then you're going to be losing money. Actually, if you may feel like you're making money in the short run, but you're going to talk, and they talk, they talk, make no mistake when people are, they, they, people talk more when they're miserable than when they're, you know, how people say, Oh, no, everything is bored of mouth. And I'm like, well, you better be squeaky clean then because word of mouth, when it wildfire, it's always negative that really catches on more than positive. Even so, yes, yeah, because you could have the best pizza shop. Let's put it that way. And, you know, so-and-so's daughter goes to work and gets her butt pinched, right? Once that gets out, how many kids, no one's going to be booking their school trips there. No one's going there for after school ice cream, none of that. Once that gets out, and now we have social media, that's a whole social media and HR. Right. Oh, oh, because is that some, oh, that is no matter what size, right? That's an issue. Absolutely. And I, you know, I was not doing the day-to-day job at the time of social media. So it is another wrinkle. I wrote policies about it, but I never had to deal with the messiness of something being played out on social media. Because people will share stuff. They will tell when they get pissy and they're in an emotional state, they could go home really upset and just go, you know what? I'm just going to let it all out emotionally, right? And wish they didn't do it later, but everyone's going to wish no one did that. Right. Right. But once it's out, yeah, can't put it back in the jar. No, no, Rita, thank you again for another insightful conversation. And I'm glad you had a good vacation. Everyone again, read his books, read a sever, it's S-E-V-E-R. Our links are in the episode notes, go to supervisionmatters.com, her books are supervision matters and also leading for justice and always good to have her on the show. But thank you so much. Well, talk next month and get into the big A-T-R. All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Big Blend Radio Success Express Show. This show is brought to you by Big Blend Magazines. You can keep up with us at Vic Blend Radio.