Big Blend Radio

Jeanne McKinney - Triumph Over the Taliban

This shared episode of Big Blend Radio's WAY BACK WHEN History Podcast features award-winning military journalist, author, and documentary filmmaker Jeanne McKinney, who discusses her new book, "Triumph Over the Taliban: The Untold Story of US Marines’ Courageous Fight to Save Camp Bastion." Award-winning military history author and historian Mike Guardia joins in on the discussion.

Three days after the September 11, 2012, attack on the U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, another attack occurred on a massive forward operating base called Camp Bastion in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, home to U.S. and U.K. expeditionary forces.

With keen investigative prowess, McKinney reveals the true story of what happened at Camp Bastion on that fateful night. After 10 years of research about this battle, McKinney paints a vivid picture of this gripping saga, sharing intimate life and death moments of fighting the Taliban on the Marines’ home turf — showcasing how Marines saved civilian contractors, each other, and over $5 billion in aircraft and equipment. More: https://patriotprofiles.com/

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Duration:: 47m
Broadcast on:: 29 Jun 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Welcome to Wayback When, Big Blend Radio's History Podcast. Welcome to Big Blend Radio, everybody. You know, we'd love to talk about military history here, and today we're going to get into some modern military history. We have Jean McKinney joining us. She's an award-winning writer, an author, filmmaker, screenwriter, and journalist, truly a journalist, who really talks about the truth. And I think that's really important. She's joining us to talk about her book called Triumph Over the Taliban. The untold story of U.S. Marines courageous fight to save Camp Bastion. And so some of us may not even know where Camp Bastion was, and some of us really do know. She's going to talk about that, tell us what went down that one night that is insane, that you probably didn't actually get to hear in the news, read in the paper, because other things were kind of filtering out there as it normally happens, right? You can go to her website, patreonprofiles.com, and we also have Mike Gaudia on the show. Anytime we do anything military that's over my head, we bring Mike Gaudia in, and you know he's on our show every first Monday with our military Monday show, and he's also a prolific author. Go to his website, MikeGaudia.com. So welcome, Jean. How are you? Well, good. How are you all? Doing good. Doing good. And San Diego, which is military, and that's like the military city, right? It's one of the ones of our country. Yeah, there is a lot of military here. We've got Navy, Marines, two different major bases for the Marines, and Coast Guard, and not so much Army and Air Force, they're somewhere else, but a lot of those two, or those three. I was going to say, Mike is a, you know, he's a U.S. Army veteran, right? And so I think Mike, you were more on the central part of the country, and then also out in the Southwest, right? So welcome back. How are you? I am doing great. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Hey, so where, yeah, where were you based in, in, in the States? You were at Fort Knox. You were in El Paso at one point, right? And Texas? Right, right. I sure was. Yeah. So I spent most of my active duty tour home, home station that Fort Bliss, and that is in El Paso, far west Texas, but as far west in Texas as you can get before you hit New Mexico, probably the most beautiful desert landscape that I've ever seen. And yeah, we, it's kind of odd, I don't know if this is by accident or by design, but typically, you know, Army and Air Force and Navy and Marines, they have their own respective major metro areas. And none of them really seemed to overlap. They've got their own home front. They're like, oh, 29 palms. I think, you know, outside Joshua Tree, we used to live out there and listen to them blowing things up. In fact, you know, an, an actress that actually had to go in when they were simulating things and she would like dive bomb around old ruins and things, like run around and they would shoot at her and stuff. It's true. That's what she did for the military and the Marines out there. But, whoo, and that's, and I know Mike, you've been on shows when we were in 29 palms. Yeah, throughout the years, even during COVID, when we were sheltered in place there or visiting, you were on the show there and 29 palms does connect back with the Marines to Afghanistan, what we're talking about today, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, I've been out there during live fire shoots with my production team. We also are in the middle of producing a documentary film series. It's in post-production now. It's about another battle in Afghanistan, but yeah, we've been out there. We've been to Penn Oliver Pendleton, Oliver Miramar, and so those are definitely, the bases are separated because they all have their different training programs and protocols. Camp Pendleton is special too. Isn't that one of the largest amphibian bases? Am I right about that or am I getting them twirled around? Well, there's a lot of land. It's huge. The geography of Camp Pendleton is huge and it's actually beautiful. They have buffalo out there. It's just, and they have a lot of training villages, but then they also have the beach so they can practice amphibious exercises. Hey, my band and I, we performed on the beach there. Yep. Back in the day, I've done like a few shows of Camp Pendleton. Yeah, and they've got the best beach in the whole area. They do. I was like, no way. This is like, I want to come here. Yeah, my friend lived on there who was our drummer, but anyway, let's get into the book Triumph over the Taliban. This is really interesting to me because again, it's the story. And Jean, why don't you give us kind of an overview of what went down that night because I don't think people know about this other than what you're doing, which I think is phenomenal. It just, I personally have not heard the story in the news and Mike, have you heard the story in the news? Do you think? Well, I heard a few snippets of it a few years back and it was nothing beyond maybe the one or two line snippets that you would read about in like the military times or, you know, army times, but yet to hear about it in this much detail as, as, as what Jean gets into. No. And I think it's, I think it's an untold tragedy that more stories like this don't get the attention that they need. Well, that's why we love you guys on the show. So Jean, take it away. It was an overview of what went down on September 14th, 2012, Camp Bastion. So just to give everyone, this is like amongst the puppy fields, right? So everybody could be a little happy out there. Well, it's not quite like that. I can give you a little scenario here. For one thing, this happened three days after the attack on Benghazi and you all know what was going on with that, a lot of controversy, a lot of misleading information about who did it and why they did it. And so that was going back and forth for quite a while. And then three days after that, the actual event, this event happened and it was Camp Bastion. It was a massive forward operating base and pretty much in the middle of desert in southern Afghanistan, home and province, which was the most volatile area of the country, mainly because of the propensity of producing opium in that part of the country, which fuels the insurgency. And so the British originally built the base and then it expanded over the years, but they built it in this remote desert that was supposed to be impregnable, right? Well, they more expanded, obviously the bigger got to where it got to 40 square miles and 25 miles fence line. And that's really tough to defend alone, let alone some of the things that happened. And so we were in the middle of a drawdown, which we had gone from 17,000 troops at the beginning of the year and they were supposed to draw down to 7,400 and that was just one of the phases of the drawdown that was happening. And that drawdown came down from 100k troops in 2010. And so that's a big enough job in itself. So we have Camp Bastion, we have the British on Camp Bastion, we have the Americans on Camp Leatherneck, which was added. And then Camp Shore back was the Afghan National Army. And so you've got all these national forces coexisting on this base, right? They all have different national caveats, they all, you know, march to a different tune as far as protocol goes for how they operate and how they conduct their missions. And so security doing a joint base like that was definitely a challenge, like who's in charge? Who does what? They had an old agreement that was put together in 2011 that was very outdated and was very inadequate to cover the situation at that time, which included very much reduced manpower because units went in and out of that base. So the British let the base become vulnerable. And the Americans came in and they said, "No way, this is not good. We don't want the poppy fields up along with fence. We don't want the shanty towns blocking our access to the main entrance gate. We want some Hesco barriers and some T-walls along an open fence line all along the airfield perimeter where our Marines were operating and living." And every time they tried to fix something, our two generals, Major General Mark or Dana's and Major General Greg Sturdevant, they were denied. And that's in part, well, I can't list all the reasons, but money was definitely a factor. And it was, I think it was an optic, it was political optic. We don't want to give the impression that we're still sending troops, we're still sending this to Afghanistan when we're supposed to be coming home. So they chose the political optic over the safety of the troops. And so you have a vulnerable base and the Taliban are very good at leveraging vulnerabilities. They had started planning this attack before, a year before. And we're training for it, it was supposed to happen in July that year, 2012, but while they were training in IED, they went off prematurely and killed some of the fighters. And so they postponed it to September. But so they're going to take advantage of every, they're not afraid of anything. I mean, you know, one of their strengths is they're not afraid to die. And so here you go, you've got a group of 15 Taliban who are going to go in and meet a wall of US Marines at night. It was very dark that night and usually dark and do as much damage as they can and kill as many Marines as they can. And that was a plan. And this is really a story of also showcasing the radicalism, right? And how suicide missions can go forth, right? And also a story of how the Marines just turned around and recognized what was going on immediately and banded together and did what needed to be done, right? So it's like, you know, I may be taking a walk on base, but I'm going to turn around and like, holy cow, we're going to town now immediately, like reactionary, like they knew what to do reactionary wise. Yeah, and that is something that I spent a lot of time on interviewing Marines. Let's go back just a minute to the why it happened because the Taliban, like I said, they weren't wearing suicide vests. There wasn't a vehicle with a bomb in it. They came in as ground forces. This is highly unusual for the Taliban. They usually hide behind people, behind walls. They shoot out of murder holes. They plant, you know, millions of IEDs. And so their warfare is not usually one on one with US Marines. Normally, other Marines that have, you know, bought these insurgency, they rarely see them because they hide. Of course, they feel the rifles, the bullets and the IEDs, but they rarely see them face to face. So this was a highly unusual move for the Taliban and they were not wearing suicide vests. They were packing rifles and RPGs. And so they plan to have a ground battle and they had to know that they weren't going to survive that, but they did bring some snacks in their backpack, just in case, I guess. Wow, that's wild. Mike, what do you make of that, of how they did the attack because that is different? It is. You know, there was, there was a lot of upheaval in the Islamic world right around the time that this happened and I know that Jeanne had touched on this. This was right after the attack on Benghazi and there were a lot of the backlash or at least as far as we were told, as far as what we could, as far as what we could deduce from all of the news reports and intel reports that were coming in was that this was a, this was a pan-Islamic response to a video that was posted called "The Innocence of Islam" that was quite critical of Islamofascism and the more violent tenets of the Islamic faith and that in some form or fashion was told to be an influence for the attack on Benghazi and the Taliban had come back later and said that they too were enraged by this particular, you know, by this particular public video, this public documentary. So it probably lends itself to the fact that they took this as a flashpoint to say, well, here's our chance to die as martyrs, you know, for the glorious cause of Allah and it is part of the Islamic theology that if you die as a martyr, then you won't be judged, you automatically go to paradise. So I think that was what spurned on a lot of the bravado had a lot of the change from the hit and run tactics that we were used to seeing from the Taliban at this point. And it shows you that, you know, even though they can rally and even though they can land a few lucky punches, you know, eventually all that steam is going to run out. You know, when I look at the raid and its entirety, I see a lot of parallels and, you know, I'm sure that there are a few others out there who would agree, but there are a lot of parallels to the Tet Offensive back in '68 where, you know, you had this massive coordinated attack that was perpetrated by the VC and they, just like their Taliban counterparts, were abandoning the traditional hit and run guerrilla tactics to try to wage an all out toe on toe engagement against US forces. And even though they did land a few lucky punches, you know, this was not the big victory that they were planning on. Well, back to the Islamic video, it's hard to know what any of those 15, except for the one who survived, who revealed in interrogation afterwards, and I can tell you a couple things. It's hard to know what any of them were thinking, but it was not an Islamic video according to the surviving Taliban that put them on that base. It was a plan to go in and destroy aircraft, kilos and jets and kill Marines. So you got to think about it. At the time, third Marine aircraft wing was there to contact counterinsurgency, right? Air operations. All throughout the war, we've got ground troops out there fighting the insurgencies and we've got air support overhead. That saved so many lives. And so third Marine aircraft wing was every day, night and day, out there overhead because they were still fighting, even though we were going home a little bit by bit, or big bit by bit, they were, they were, they were leaving. And so those aircraft were bane. They hated them because that, the one thing that the Taliban respect is power. And those aircraft were power over them. And that got in their way of, you know, fueling the insurgency, moving weapons fighters, you know, the whole thing, wreak havoc on them, basically. And so they were getting back at, at these aircraft that was wreaking havoc on them and their plans. And the Taliban, the survivor, his name was Mohammed Nazir, he said, you know, he described the plan, the complete plan that they had. He was brought in last minute because of the IED that killed some fighters. And, and so there was a lot of myths about that, that my book clears up, that about the Islamic video and then about it's because Prince Harry was there. Well, yeah, Prince Harry was there, but he was not the reason for the attack, the Taliban capitalized on that after the attack and claimed, oh, yeah, we knew he was there, or, oh, yeah, we knew this and that to make them look bigger, you know. But if they would have known he was there and, and were after him, they, they were entering the wrong side of the base. Wow. Wow. This is like an insane attack. I mean, and then yet how, how did they, I mean, the, the remains there turned around quickly to be able to save even the aircraft, right? They saved a lot. And isn't that part of even the story is like what they saved each other? Well, yeah, that's a part of the story nobody's been talking about all these years is what they saved. What they've been talking about is two marine generals that were wrongly targeted for the security breach in the first place, which is a lie. So what they say was monumental because like I said, there were American forces, British forces, Afghan forces on that base. It was late at night. There were Marines all over the airfield, you know, there were Marines in, you know, getting ready for the next air crew shift out, um, lights out. There were Marines sleeping, there were Marines eating, there were Marines in the fuels area. And so, um, when they, the, the first explosions when they set off the first terrier jets, and they used a little, little grenades that Ray rolled underneath, um, and blew them up. And so, um, when they heard that, everybody heard that they all came to the same conclusion at first that it was a control that nation, which is something they do when they confiscate enemy ordnance, they just blow it up so they can't access it. And so then they realized very quickly, uh, no, it's not a control that they don't do it late at night. Usually they give us a notice that's happening and, um, and then they saw these giant fireballs in the sky, you know, where the fuel bags were and where the flight lines were. So Marines are very highly trained to operate in crisis situations. This is one of their strong points. They are a smaller group and they're, they're put together so they can move. They can move fast and they can move, you know, um, with the skilled people, with people skilled, everybody's skilled to use a rifle and keep in mind these were aviation Marines. So they put down their wrenches and picked up the rifles and that's, that would not be the case for every service that we have in this country because we're, they're the only service that makes everybody be proficient with the rifle and thank goodness that night. But they definitely started mobilizing and it, this, these were some of the questions that I started asking when I heard about it because I thought, I wanted to know every little detail about this battle because I thought this sounds so amazing. Why haven't we heard about this? Because it's, if you think about why, what if we didn't hear about the battles of World War II or World War I that they make, you know, so many movies out of? Well, how come nobody's talking about the battles of the, of the war on terror? They really don't. There's not a lot of movies, there's some, and there's not a lot of people talking about especially Afghanistan right now. So, but they, they mobilized amazingly and went to extraordinary lengths to protect civilians that were scattered there too. There were third country nationals and, and contractors that were there. So they immediately formed a cocoon around them, got them to safety and then there were different spheres of action and this made it very difficult for me to write the book because there's no official timeline, all right, nobody's looking at their watch. They know approximately when certain planes came in or aircraft came in and, and when the firefighters were called up, nobody ever talked about the firefighting that was going on the west side of the airfield. All of that part of my book is brand new. It's, it's like that was never mentioned ever. And so they just started to form these little battle spheres with chain of command. You know, they'd have that down really, really well and, and started the gears to start ticking like a clock and they, first of all had to find the enemy in the dark and not shoot any friendlies, right? Because there's Marines everywhere, they don't know where they are. They don't know how many enemy are on the base. They don't know what their intent is, all they know is they've got a threat out there. So they didn't run away. They ran to it and they found them. Wow. That's amazing. And running to it, you know, that's, that's, I'm, I'm allowed to say to honeys on my own stuff. Right? I mean, that's, that's like, that is the dedication and that's, you know, I think what's so important. Just before we recorded the importance of both what you do, Gene and, and Mike telling the soldier story, not just like, this is what went down. Here's the ambush or here's the battle. Here's what went down. Here's the fight, but with the story of the actual soldier. So you went out and interviewed like what Mike does and, and talked to the, the, the those who were in that, in that battle, right? Did they kind of feel slighted about it or did they even care if it was even out there for people? Oh, they cared and they were slighted and they absolutely, you know, the, the officers in the groups, in the various groups, whether it be, you know, the helicopter HMLA 469 VMA 211 or MWS 273, which is the support squadron that does the fueling and the firefighting. They wanted their men to be recognized properly because they really did some, there were so many heroic moments that night. And, and so they wanted that for their men, not so much for themselves, even though they were heroic as well, they wanted them to be recognized because they deserved it. They, they really did a fantastic job. And instead the, because of the, the political drama that went on eight months later with this second investigation that was trying to find a couple of all guys because of the whole matter, which was our two generals, they didn't talk about it at all. They didn't talk about what they did, and, and frankly, the response could have been really, really valuable in training classes for future Marines, but instead they told a different story, not the real story, but the story they made up to fit the narrative that these two generals were to blame. And that's all that the focus was on at the time. So yeah, they did feel slighted and now, now they don't have to feel that way because it's all out there, what they did, their heroism, and their courage, and their success. I mean, how many times do you, do you go online and see triumph over the Taliban? Um, you usually see Taliban triumphs, right? Mm hmm. Yeah. This time it was different. We triumphed. Yeah. Uh, initially two Marines were tragically killed in the initial response. They were leading their men to battle. They didn't even really get properly recognized because they were swept up into this political narrative, which was dishonorable, in my opinion. And they needed to be recognized for being brave, courageous Marines, leading their men to battle. And instead it was, well, who's to blame for this? Well, oh, you know, instead of, yeah, so it's not even, so it's political versus not safety of the country of knowing, you know, sometimes you have to keep things quiet, right? Um, before the world knows just out of safety reasons. So it wasn't even security. It was just political. Well, I mean, it became political. It was, um, well, it's always political when you're in a war, right? You're the military is the arm of the president to enact foreign policy. And so there's always a very much a political thread in every conflict. And that tends to be problematic because in this case, they were not listening to their commanders on the ground telling them, Hey, we need this and this. I know, you know, we're drawing down, but we're still, um, we're still out there conducting operations every day. And you need a certain amount of manpower to do that effectively. And whenever our forces are sent to another country, that is one thing that should never be compromised is the security of our forces, wherever they're housed. But it was, and it shouldn't have been, and our generals were trying to fix that and they were denied. And then later they were blamed for it. Um, wrong, you know, it was really a lie about what they, what they said about the generals and then that went all over the news and nobody bothered to talk about it, the attack. So it's kind of a twofold thing, my book. I want, I started out to tell the battle. And I, it's still the core of my book, this heroic, amazing battle. Um, and, and, um, how aviation Marines, you know, became infantry that night and defeated their attackers that had come in and surprised them like that. And it's, Oh, go ahead. No, I was going to say, I think it's, it's, I, Mike, doesn't this resonate with you for a lot of the soldiers you've written about over the years that just had to go rogue at times. I'm allowed to use that word, you know what I mean? That had to do what had to be done, even though it wasn't, you know, sorry, but protocol has to go aside because the other side isn't doing protocol and, and protocol is out the window now. Like get over it, grow up, you know, right. And, you know, I think this is probably one of the best downstream examples that we can see of, uh, you know, the ethos behind the Marines training where they say that every Marine is a rifleman. And even if you go into a support MOS, you know, they make sure that you are both initially trained as an infantryman and that you retain those core competencies, uh, no matter how long you stay inside of a support MOS. So the fact that they were able to, the fact that they were able to very quickly go from whatever their, whatever their primary role was to, you know, to, to, uh, to convert to infantry that quickly and almost that seamlessly. I think that that really, uh, spells to the ethos and in a broader sense really just shows how, uh, how the US military is a cut above a lot of the, a lot of the other fighting forces in the world. Oh, yeah, I mean, and at the same time, what do you think about the, the, the lack of recognition through all the soldiers you've written about over the years? And I know what, what Gene has done is also just prolific. You guys are both amazing, um, but does that, I mean, it's kind of, it's really interesting to go from, you know, all these wars over the years and to see it's still, this is so close to home, timelines, you know, so modern. Like this is modern history, like modern as you can get, right? Right. Um, I mean, one thing, and Mike, I applaud you for writing these battle stories because I think as American people, I know I'm an American, uh, citizen and I'm very much a patriot and I'm proud to say that, um, my lineage goes all the way back to the Revolutionary War, so I have a duty here, um, but the cost of freedom is something that should be on everybody's mind. We have so many privileges and opportunities in this country, but there's a, a, you know, a certain amount of people that make sure that happened, right? People that wear the uniform, they're out there watching our backs. We need to watch theirs too, and we should at least, at the very least, recognize, excuse me, recognize their accomplishments and successes and, and let it be known, um, this is what it's like to wear the uniform and vice America's worst enemies. Um, and, and for us to have some sort of a inherent appreciation that freedom isn't free and, and be thankful for people, men and women alike that go out there and make sure that we can continue our lives the way we want them to continue. So I have this, this is my mission is to tell these battle stories as many as I can. I've been telling shorter versions for 12 years in news stories. I have hundreds of news stories about various active duty military and that was, that's sort of the rare part of what I do is I actually was able to get, excuse me on the inside of the Navy, the Marine Corps, the Army, the Air Force, the National Guard, and, and the Coast Guard and talk to these folks and ask them, what do you do? What's it been like? You know, what kind of major events have you gone through and, and that got really popular. It was just an idea I had and I pitched it to an editor in San Diego that, um, I knew and she said, yeah, let's give it a shot. So I was doing that every single month writing these stories. They started winning awards, not me, not so much for me, but because the person had such a fantastic story. And, and then it just kind of all mushroomed out now to the book and to my films, but I think we owe it to these people to, um, at least know a little bit about them and bridge that gap between you pick up the rifle, you wear the uniform, you go over and face the world's worst enemies, and then me over here, you know, I get to go shopping, I get to go to a game, I get to do all this stuff because I'm not under some tyrannical rule. So I don't know, it's a big passion of mine. Yeah, no, it's in, I can tell and really writing this is, you know, it's, it's almost like a whistleblower in a way, you know, um, but how, how's the response been with you publishing the book and it going out in for the soldiers that you did interview, how, what's the response been like on that level? The response has been amazing from the people that I interviewed, um, and then other people that have read the book, you know, there's, I've got some reviews online. They're all five stars. I hear, I couldn't put it down, um, you know, people will text me and say, Hey, I just started reading the first couple pages and I'm already hooked. This kind of thing, um, the response has been, I kind of like, I had no idea. I had no idea that this happened and at this level and, and everybody has been very, very positive about the book. The part that I'm struggling with right now and thanks to radio, I'm getting some, some of the word out is that, um, some people have ingrained perspectives of what happened during that tack that we're, we're put forth by the news at that time and they either don't care about it at this point or maybe they don't want to change those ideas, but here we are. Everything in my book is documented and from official reports, from interviews, from the Marines that were actually there fighting the Taliban. And so here you have, this is what really happened in its entirety. Uh, at some point, you're going to have to brace it, but you know, when we have things like a cover up that's attached to this story, you know, unsightly cover up, that taints it. That taint is a thing from the whole beginning. And, and then people, um, people that wrote something about a lot of people wrote about this attack and said, yeah, the two generals were fired because they failed to secure the base and that's just a completely erroneous statement. It's anything but that, but they didn't dive into it before they printed it. And now they're kind of stuck with that, but there's recovery here. All you got to do is be a little bit open minded and do a little reading and be pretty much amazed by what these Marines did and then read the, you know, read the investigations that exonerate the two generals from what they were accused of. And they wore that blame all these years. And now I'll tell you, they, they can't, they, they can't thank me enough. They, they are very much involved with the book. They're in the book where very close, I'm close with all of them. And, um, and the people that, uh, so now it's just a matter of I'm a self published author and learning the ropes of being an author and getting the word out and I'm so appreciative for you and asking me on the show, I'm appreciative for Mike who tells the stories because you help make this country better by, by caring, caring about these folks that do this. This is what they need, you know, especially the, the afghan vets right now there's, there's a handful out there more than a handful. I can't even count how many that are feeling, well, why did we go over there after the way it ended? Right. What's the purpose? Yeah. Why did I, why did I watch my buddy die? Why did I, you know, why did my other buddies legs get blown off? I've talked to double amputees and people stuck in wheelchairs that are young men that went over there and fought the Taliban. That has to mean something, right? And I just, I am so thankful for my radio stations that are having me on because number one, I love radio. I used to be in radio myself. And number two, you're getting out there and that's a very good thing to do. Well, we appreciate you joining us and telling the story. If you have anything to add to this, you know, in regards to telling the, telling the stories and, you know, for people to read the actual reports too. Right. Well, well, well, Jean, I just wanted to, I really just wanted to reiterate, I guess, kind of piggyback on what you had said earlier about how important it is to get these stories out there. And, you know, thank God that we have folks like you who can, who can not only tell the story in an audio visual format, but, you know, also to, also to record these stories on paper for all the future generations to see. And you know, I think it's just incredible that you can be in a position to help correct some of the erroneous narratives that have been put out there, particularly as it relates to people who have been unfairly branded for any number of reasons out there. You know, I think that, I think that that's probably one of the most gratifying things about being a historical storyteller is to be able to, you know, not only reinforce the importance of the narratives, but if you have the chance to give a redemption arc to someone who really needs it, then, yeah, I mean, I think that that makes it all the more worthwhile and all the more meaningful. And yeah, I certainly know that it's hard for a lot of veterans to wrestle with how the war on terror ultimately turned out, especially those among us who have survivor's guilt. But I think at the end of the day, at least what I've said on a number of occasions is that we can at least call the war on terror a victory for no other reason than we eliminated Osama bin Laden. We eliminated the perpetrator behind 9/11 and the families and the victims who were impacted by 9/11, they've been avenged on some level just on account of the fact that the perpetrator met what I can only call to be a very, very just demise. And you know, I think in a broader context, you know, if there hadn't been a 9/11, we never would have gone to Afghanistan and that, you know, the Taliban for, you know, as backwards as they are and for, you know, for the brutality that they represented, that in a lot of ways they were incidental to al Qaeda. And you know, if it's any soulless to any of my former comrades in arms, we can at least say that we avenged those who perished on that September day. Yeah, do I have time to say one more thing? Sure, sure. Okay. That was beautiful. Like, um, I want to tell the vets out there that are listening that their service did mean something. They're pregnant. It meant a lot. Number one, we did not have a 9/11 for 20 years. Okay. They stopped that. That is, they deterred that, they made the Taliban fear them, they overcame, and they took the ground, the Taliban were entrenched in, and they brought life back to the Afghan people. They got girls in school, they built roads. They helped educate people, they provided freedoms for those people that they don't have now. Those are gone under Taliban rule. And so they did something very valuable while they were over there. And I just want them all to know that, that I appreciate that, and they are the finest this country has to offer as people that go over there and do that kind of dirty work. Because they were so we don't have to. I agree. And on Afghanistan, I want to add another book in here. We've got two authors on here, and I think it's important that we all support authors taking their time to do this work. There's not a lot of money in it, everybody just saying. But Craig Mulaney was on our show, I think way back when, I got to go look up when his book was published, was in the beginning of our podcasting, we were in 29 Palms at the time. Yeah, it was 2009, he was on our show. He wrote the unforgiving minute, it was a memoir about America's 9/11 era. And it was about coming of age as a soldier in Afghanistan, and when he was on the show a couple times, and he really talked about Afghanistan where we had no clue, like the general public of America, and that we actually really needed to be there more than what people thought. And what you say earlier, Jean, politics gets in the way, and that's what he was trying to explain. What happens on the ground with your boots on the ground versus, and building schools, he was explaining all that like what they were doing, and he felt like they were doing something positive, and at any second all that positivity could be wiped away if we went too soon. You know, I don't know, Mike, what do you think that would, you know, that what has been built, that that was his biggest fear, that it could go away, you know, in conversation. I'm sure it's all changed a little bit here and there, but I just remember that from the interviews with him that Afghanistan needed more than what we did. And yet like you were saying, you know, the main demon is down. Don't buy a mini pizza anyone, but you know, that, that, that is a side that people don't see about the military, is that they're actually builders too, right, they're protectors and builders. What do you want to say? What do you want to say? Yeah. He just was like, we're, we're creating something, we're feeling that, you know, it's kind of like the UN people love and hate the UN, but, you know, it's, it's helping hands or helping hands. Right, Jane? Helping hands. Well, yeah, I mean, we were invited by the Afghan government to be there. We had an agreement, you know, the co there were 50 countries in the coalition that was under working under NATO operation and during freedom, 50 countries. And so they, they, there was, you know, the government could not control the insurgencies. They, they needed help and they asked for it and they got it. And, and so we went over there and helped them at risk to our own guys and gals lives and kept that tear down, we kept them down. And it's, it's like, yeah, we got bin Laden, OK, but there's, there's a lot more out there that'll just come and take a place, you know, that they just move up the chain. And it's the kind of thing that is never over, counterinsurgency is never over. They are never going to stop. That is one thing they approved over the years. They are resilient and they will not stop. And so there always has to be a plan, you know, just to stop them. I grew up in Africa. Terrorism is part of life, right? And that's something I hope, I don't want Americans to have to live like that. But I'm always aware of it. And just keep your eyes open, people. Don't pick up packages on the side of the road ever. I don't care what it is. Just don't do it anyway. So, you know, there's no terrorism doesn't end until it's ended, right? You're really right about that. And we should just, that vigilance, stay vigilant, you know, there's that hatch tag on social media. But I mean, it's a true word and it's a true sentiment that has to happen. And hopefully on the political side, things stay vigilant, right? So thank you so much, Gene, for joining us. Everyone, triumph over the Taliban, the untold story of U.S. Marines. Courage, courage, I just want to say courage. Courageous fight to save Camp Bastion. Go get it now. Amazon is one of the best places. Ask your local bookstore to get it too. And you can also go to patreon profiles.com. And Gene is also on Facebook and linked in and on Twitter, known as X or X, known as, formerly known as Twitter at Gene E. McKinney. So check that out. And thank you so much, Mike, for being on this podcast today. We always appreciate you being there to make sure that I don't stumble too much on my words when it comes to the military and for all the education you've done over the years. Thank you. Well, well, thank you very much, ladies. And it's always a pleasure to be on the show. And Gene, it was a pleasure meeting and speaking with you and yeah, keep fighting the good fight. Yeah, you too. I hope we can do it again and I've really enjoyed it. It's been great.