These Football Times
Néstor Lorenzo and the renaissance of Colombia
(upbeat music) - Welcome to The Lob, your home of in-depth coverage and analysis by these football times, a movement of journalism you can trust. Each week, we endeavor to bring you the very best coverage of the game, exploring stories from the past and present, with analysis by expert guests from around the world. Find more about award-winning content online and in print. In the meantime, enjoy the podcast. - Hi, and welcome to another edition of The Lob Podcast from these football times. I'm Gary Thacker, and in this edition, we're gonna be talking about a team that has reached a foreign law of continental tournament against many expectations of the country. Assessed the job performed by the manager, who has produced a revival with Tim's four Jews, and considered how they now sit on the very edge of glory. Well, I'm gonna be, no, wait, no, no, no. We're not talking about England. In this episode, we'll be trying to set out the marriage to consider the revival of Colombia, and with their Argentine coach, Nesta Lorenzo. Do you want to be in this discussion? His TFT is very own South American football expert, Dr Pete Watson. I Pete, the successor of Columbia National Team, and what it means to the country is a subsequent very close to your heart, I believe. - Yeah, I mean, anyone who's put up with me on our various podcasts before, we'll know that obviously it's a team very close to my heart. It's the team that I write on, well, the country I write most on, and I'm doing my own academic investigations. So, you know, anytime there's a copper America, or World Cup, or an Olympics, or South American qualifiers, but particularly the major tournaments, it's always a really interesting time to read what kind of messages and meanings and symbolisms that are kind of being mentioned, and what kind of narratives have been developed around the team and the country. So, yeah, you can imagine that over the last couple of weeks, I've been quite busy following all those things up, and it's been a busy morning after the year of our game last night. - I hope that, yeah, we'll be touching on that in a minute. Also, joining us is not the member of the South American Files team. Stephen Scrag, how's it going, Stephen? Colombia's a great subject for talking about football, man, isn't it? - Absolutely, absolutely. They definitely need this extra focus as well. The Pete will take us through in a lot more detail, but, you know, it's remarkable what they've done, you know, not just in this time, but how to come from kind of like one of those periodical ruts that they have, I mean, don't get me wrong, they've had bigger ruts, but I think in an era in which it's becoming increasingly difficult not to qualify for a World Cup, et cetera, and to challenge in your own continental tournaments, then, you know, those ruts aren't maybe quite as pronounced as going decades without a World Cup and all that type of thing. But considering where we all thought Colombia were and headed around about a decade ago, they've not fulfilled, but this is them very much striking back. - You've segued nicely into the first topic we wanted to put to you guys here, so. It's been a while since Colombia reached the Copa of America 4, not the last period of 2001, and the big Mexico 1-0. So where's Colombia football being, Colombia football being in the intervening years, please? - You've got two really defined periods. I guess you've got the period from that particular Copa America through to 2014, where you have, you know, what a lot of Colombians will see is a bit of a black hole. The Colombian golden generation that kind of preceded that 2001 Copa America, you know, the 1990 team, the 1990-14. I mean, arguably not the 1998 team, they were in the World Cup, but that was very much the dying embers of a generation. So after that kind of 2001 triumph, which let's remember was at home, it wasn't a full Copa America. There had been various kidnapping issues, the head of the vice president of Colombian football federation had been kidnapped shortly before the tournament had started. It was still at a time of the FARC in the year, then launching various car bomb attacks around major Colombian cities. So several teams didn't go. So in lots of ways, even though it's Colombia's only, well, it's male teams, only really major triumph. It's often seen as a little bit of an outlier. You know, not everyone was there. But then there was a bit of a black hole, and we don't really have a period of strong teams. They don't qualify for the World Cup until 2014. They're not doing particularly well in the Copa America either. We don't really see any, you know, major global heroes in their football team in that period. You know, you have certain players like, I suppose Juan Pablo Angel, you have the likes of Hamilton Ricard and Oogorro the Jiga. For example, the players that English fans will know, but we don't have that kind of that Valderama player, or that Asprea player that really sets the pulses rising. So there's a kind of a blank, a black hole there. And then we really have a very strong pit under Peckerman, Jose Nesta Peckerman from 2014, really, well, the qualification, but certainly the World Cup in 2014 and 2018, where a new golden generation emerges that's largely defined by Hammers Rodriguez, but, you know, ably supported by a cast of very, very prominent other stars. You know, in lots of ways, as Stevie said, you know, they should have done really better, not qualifying for the last World Cup was a bit of a shock. But that kind of brief dip that saw, you know, two real main managerial stints of Querosh and of Reynal Dorueira, you know, where there is a dip has suddenly been kind of replaced. So there's been kind of like a four year struggle. But I think what we're seeing now is a kind of a coach that's got a very clear idea, a very clear plan. I think we're also seeing in lots of ways a continuation of the Peckman era. In terms of why that's difficult to say, I think that, you know, that the difficulty of sustaining or producing a new golden generation is difficult. You know, if you get your managerial choices, wrong, that creates a problem. But I think that quite often in Columbia, there's often an accusation of improvisation amongst the, those running the football federations and the talent seeking programs. So I think that that kind of ability to build on prior knowledge was slightly lost. I think that you also have a problem of having to deal with a lot of your best players suddenly going abroad and ever increasing age. So they're kind of disconnected from the home area. And that in some ways might not seem as much a problem if they're getting experience in different countries. But if they're not coming back to be part of a very concrete, organized program, let's remember the first golden generation in Columbia is very much a national program. Most of the players were still playing Columbia. So I think it took the time to get to cope with that. I think another issue is just the fact that there are some other very, very good teams in South America going around. We have to look at the growth of the Ecuador team of the early 2000s as being a very strong team. You've obviously got the likes of Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, they're always there. So it's not an easy environment to play well in. If you don't have that influential player and the correct manager that can really create something. I think they tried to go backwards a lot. They tried to go back to the likes of Ernan Dariel Gomers and Francisco Matarana for management. But arguably that particular time had gone, that particular style of play had probably gone, that kind of golden moment had gone. So I think there's all kinds of reasons why that black hole between 2001 and 2014 really existed. - Yeah, it's fascinating, Stevie. And it's, I mean, in the pods we've done in the South America Falls in the past, Pete's mentioned about the hierarchy and the fact that you've got Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, and Columbia always seems to be sort of bumping up against that ceiling occasionally, but never seemed to get to break through. I mean, they're not the classic up and down team, aren't they? You know, there's periods of success as you mentioned, and then in sort of these dips as Pete just described. - Yeah, and even in contemporary terms, Uruguay, you know, have only recently-ish come back to play in third wheel in that, in that head mini, you know, they had their own drift over periods of time. So you'd have Argentina, you'd have Brazil, and then A another, you know, I looked back to the 1982 World Cup, and it's chilly, and it's Peru, you know, '86, you have the coming of Paraguay. You know, so Uruguay even weren't within that. You know, they were kind of like this archaic name from the past that were winning World Cups when the television cameras weren't around, you know, it's only, you know, as you know, your knowledge of these nations expands, and you know, you grow up a little bit, and you lead into it, and all that type of thing, when you come to appreciate football of a black and white era, and the standing of such teams in the global order, but yes, you know, Uruguay have very much got on to become, or to re-establish themselves as being part of that trimmer of domination in South American football, national football, but yeah, that third or fourth wheel, if you wish, you know, Columbia, you know, we've mentioned before in that concept of playing it like a really, you know, whether that's three, four, five-year cycles, something here comes Columbia as they were in '94, '98, and then they kind of like drop the ball and Paraguay come back in 2002, reaching a World Cup quarterfinals. You know, you have that cycle, even Ecuador, if they're on the hat into the ring, Peru have come back to an extent. So Columbia's, these ebbs and flows are just, you know, part and parcel of what is a changing landscape. It'll be very, very different as we look towards the 2026 World Cup and the expansion of qualification, which might give very, you know, very, very hard for certain nations not to qualify for a World Cup, but Columbia quite, I don't know, unique in that way is that, you know, I think we were all impressed a decade ago, you know, two at 2014 World Cup they reached the quarterfinals. You know, Peckhamons, Columbia played some magnificent football, and then not to kind of grow on that. Yeah, they reached the semi-finals of the Copper America 2016, but there's a pronounced drift after that really. Yes, they come third in 2021, but it's a ghost tournament, you know, in empty stadiums, you know, so it's hard to kind of place that within the wide Alexa of Copper Americas and South American football of that time. But, you know, it's not that the without talented players, they've got some outrageous, the gifted players, but maybe there's an added pragmatism to them at the minute, which, you know, is kind of refreshing to see because they can still turn it up. But, yeah, the last 10 years, yeah, it is that, I don't know, that cycle that's so fascinating, and Columbia played that role just as much as Chile do, you know, Chile were looking at them being Copper America winners back to back not all that long ago, and then suddenly they're out of the picture again, and, you know, at the minute, it's kind of like Columbia coming around that way all towards the top end of it, while you're Chile's, and you're Paraguay's, and you're Peru's are working the way, maybe on the downward or lower up with cycle of that. - Yeah, it's interesting, just to sort of complete the sort of setting of the scene, as we just said, before we move on to what's happening now. You both mentioned, so are you for a second, do you think, both mentioned about groups of players that come through, and they seem to have these like a burst of three or four players to come through together. Although their perhaps don't have massive success, and it drifts away, and it just seems like, you know, it's difficult to identify the reason why you get that burst, and then that sort of lull again. - Yeah, there's no rhyme or reason to it sometimes. I mean, the matter of international football, we often mention about it being, you know, it's a biological edge to it, rather than a checkbook edge to it. Yes, certain FAs are more bankrolled than others, but you still were heavily reliant upon the quality of a generation of players that have to come from that nation. You know, yeah, you can get your bringers in, and stuff like that, where it's kind of like, you know, second generation, and whatever you're not looking at you, I'm not looking at yourself. But, you know, within that, you know, that's just, it's part of the beauty of it, because you can't buy away out of trouble. You can't buy away out of a rut, or stagnation, or whatever it is. You know, you do have to rely upon, you know, the basic genetics of the opponent to a creator of the players. Basically, and, you know, that's why, you know, you do get that flux in international football, is that whoever is on top, and on top of the game, and bouncing along, they will soon be knocked off. You know, they really, really will. You know, you're looking at Argentina now. You know, they might well break Colombian hearts on the early hours of Monday, you know, morning. But, you know, there will be a team winning three major international tournaments on the spin. You know, a remarkable achievement for a team that I think prior to that copper America in 2021, when we were going back to 1993, since the last one a major international tournament, Argentina win that World Cup in Qatar in 2022. First time since, what, 2002, the World Cup have been won by South American team, the first time that a World Cup have been won, not by European nation. So, you know, that's the beauty of international football. It's just a shame that FIFA and its, you know, component parts are constantly trying the best to make it, you know, to break international football in a way. It's interesting, interesting mention about you can't buy a chipbook play as a South American files, ever so we'll be doing not too far during the road. Might sort of go against that certainly a few years ago. But Pete, just come to you briefly about the same sort of thing. I mean, these first of players, is there any sort of a logical reason to it? Is it like the injection of capital or something? Obviously, the gold, the first Colombian gold in generation, there are certain capital issues that are famously involved or infamously involved. There is certainly the whole narco football years that is so unfortunately indelibly associated with that success. You know, there is a drop off without doubt in the financing of Colombian football in the intervening years. You know, sometimes I wonder whether, you know, the kind of country in security, you know, in that, in that kind of the late 1990s and the early 2000s and some way prohibits this scouting of talent or the locating of players or the nature of conflict is maybe meaning that instead of, you know, playing football and kind of the streets and the roads, you know, there's a kind of a, kind of a, you know, joining of gangs or even joining of militias or joining of paramilitaries or the careers. I mean, you know, I kind of wonder, I mean, it's such an intangible idea, but you kind of wonder, you know, that so many children are impacted so badly by the war. And, you know, I mean, I don't know what impact that really has. You know, are the scouts going to Colombia to look for players in the Colombian League at that time? You know, are the foundations of Colombian football so badly erode and badly shook up the kind of way in which they're looking to develop is not there. You know, in lots of ways as well, you know, I mean, Stevie mentioned that the hierarchy question has always been an aspect of what we've talked about the Colombian football. And, you know, I guess that just below that, that era of the Colombian generation, that kind of, you know, the late teens are not used to Colombia winning. And maybe it takes another 10 years for the kids that are, you know, six, seven, eight at the time of, you know, Val d'Armar Esprita, Fredden Kahn, to kind of be thinking, actually, we can beat Argentina. We can beat Brazil. We can beat, you know, these European teams. And maybe it takes them 10 years to come through. There are lots of imponderables. Again, a lot of Colombia's own systems are questionable. I think what you can also see is, you can also look at the Capola Bertedoras as an indicator of what Colombian clubs are achieving. So I think that, you know, you have to have that starting point somewhere, you know, and I think that that confidence in club football can often translate into the international team. And the 2000s are a little bit of a blank period for Colombia as well. I mean, you have on Cacaldas winning in, I think, 2004, 2006. But that wasn't a very Colombian team. That's a highly defensive team that wins on the strength of salinity in a very good coach, in fact. So I think there's lots of factors that come together. I do think that one of the major problems that any Latin American team is, is that because they're kind of, their component parts are so disparate, you know, once the seeds have promised emerge, they're quickly sewn to the winds of all these different corners of Europe and even probably different countries now, whether we can add the Middle East and North America, you know, their players are kind of so spread out that it's even harder to get them together. You know, there's connections are kind of lost. So I wonder whether just that process of bringing together the talent every time there is a game, you know, is a very difficult process. You know, I wonder if that also is, is somehow part of the issue. And again, you know, we're looking at, you know, we're looking at a federation or a group of teams in South America, there's only nine of them, I think. That's, that's always hard. You just have to lose a couple of games and you're gone in a copper America. You just have to play Brazil in an early round and you're gone. It's, it's very tricky. It's a very tricky art to get success, particularly as quite often the groups are loaded. You know, you're never gonna see Brazil and Argentina in the top group. If you happen to be a decent Ecuadorian team or a decent Colombian team or a different, a decent Peruvian team at that time, you know, and you, you just get the wrong group. You're, you know, you're waiting for another four years now. It's not like it used to be they're playing every year back in, you know, the 1920s. - Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, okay. So there's a seed setting. So two years ago, after the kilometer failed to qualify for the World Cup manager was sat and they're appointed Nester on Lorenzo. I mean, the question will be many people listening to this, perhaps who the hell is Nester on Lorenzo. Unless you're leaving the heart of Wiltshire, which you might sort of say, well, actually, we know you. So give us a little bit of a bit Nester on Lorenzo, buddy. - I mean, he's known in England, I guess, for Swindon Town. And there's some stories which I've been kind of reading up on this morning, but I mean, really, you know, football cognitive entity, if you like, might remember him from 1990. You know, he was a member of the, the Argentina World Cup squad in 1990. He actually plays at only two games. He plays in a loss against Cameroon and he plays in a loss in the final. So it's not an ideal World Cup for Nester. You know, he'd also played in the 1988 Olympics before that. It was a kind of a rugged centre-back, had been brought up at Argentina's Juniors. You know, obviously that's the club of Diego Maradona, but he, you know, he could play, you know, he went to, he went to Bari after the, you know, after his early successes. And that was a bit of a, you know, a potential route into major success, but then it didn't really happen. The Swinden story is fascinating. He only is signed because that's the time when Osvaldo Ardiilas is manager. They've just been relegated to, to the second tier of English football. And, you know, you can imagine that, that Lorenzo is very excited to play with a legend of the country, you know, and also, you know, to maybe make a new start, hadn't gone particularly well in Bari. It's alone signing originally. And, you know, he's, again, he's, I was reading up on it this morning, the first game that he played in was against Portsmouth. Did the noble thing in beaten three nails, scored a goal. You know, immediately, winning is, you know, lots of fans on the South Coast. He's playing in a back four with Paul Boden, obviously a good player for Wales, then AD Vivi Vivash, and I had pronounced that, so Vivash. And Tom Jones, so, you know, probably wasn't unusual for him to, to be doing well in such a, such a back four. But then, you know, he, the problem that he has is that Ardiilas leaves and joins Newcastle, the only reason for him to be there is gone. He doesn't get on with Glen Hoddle, apparently. He's quite candid about it, although, apparently, he did meet him in the future and had a big hug. But the other reason that, apparently, he wasn't playing much is that Swindner in financial troubles at the time. You know, he's on a slightly, you know, the transfer fee has some kind of pay-to-pay-to-play clause, apparently. So, he doesn't really play a great deal under Hoddle. Hoddle is playing at centre back. He got Colin Calderwood, I think he's still there. So, you've got a World Cup finalist who is barely playing any football. He then returns to Argentina, has a good career for clubs like Saint Laurent, so ends up at Boca Juniors as well, who, which is child of club. But I think what's interesting, really, is the managerial career. And I think that, you know, the, many people say he doesn't have one. He doesn't, he has a great assistant manager career. In lots of ways, you know, he is the, the number two to Jose Nesztole Pekerman, probably or arguably one of Columbia's greatest managers. Along with Matarana, Lorenzo, arguably, is putting himself in that category now. But he's the number two, and he's there when, he's in there for the, the Argentina under 20. He's there for the Argentina national team. He's there in a couple of quite unsuccessful spells in Mexico, but also is there in Columbia. So, a lot of its success is being part of the Pekerman unit. His only managerial career before the column, before taking on the Columbia job is at Melgard. Again, not one of the great South American teams. We're looking at a kind of a Peru where we put Melgard, certainly not the top three of Alian Salomon Universitario Sport in Cristal. They're one of the also Rams from, from Anna Kepa. And after an optically strong start, he then leads them to the, the Apertura title in 2022. And it's probably that that brings him back to the Columbia position. So this isn't someone who's got tons of titles. This isn't someone who's got lots of managerial appointments. He's got obviously, a career as a top level footballer, although quite a short one in lots of ways. He doesn't have that kind of that European experience that many of the top Argentinian managers have had. Think of Pochettino, for example. So he's kind of coming a lot of ways out of the shadows, off the bench to suddenly be in the limelight in this tournament more than ever before. And again, it's worth noting that Columbia currently has an unbeaten record of 28 games on the spin. Now, not all of those run the, run the Laurence. So I think four games run the, I think briefly, Echter Cardenas are the dying embers of Reynaldo Roya, that under whom they couldn't score to save themselves, but didn't concede many either. But that's a remarkable record. Bearing in mind that I think the, the world record for most the longest run of unbeaten games is something like 35 or 36. You know, and they've played Brazil. They've beaten Brazil. They've drawn against Brazil. They've beaten Uruguay and drawn against them. They've beaten Spain. They've beaten Germany. You know, they haven't beaten Argentina. That was the last team that beat them. But they're not, they're not playing Venezuela every week. And again, Venezuela, you know, not bad team either at the moment. So, you know, it's an impressive run, you know, and he's, he's really kind of, you know, setting, getting people talking about how good is he, particularly after he's just, you know, the Columbia team have just beaten the famed Marcella Bielsa, you know, with 10 men for over 45 minutes. And Bielsa's Uruguay, arguably, man for man, given where they're playing, given where most of his players are playing, should be winning that game. - Yeah, it's interesting, fascinating. I mean, the, the game, yes, it was a, what's the word? It's a past temperamental, a past tumultuous. It's interesting to mention, I didn't realise I didn't realise I had an idea if you've actually played alongside him. I mean, it's interesting to swim them back for them. It's a, we've actually went on to a formal war supply where I come from. Also went on to be a big win. The Chelsea Academy that produced all those youth cup winning teams. So, yeah, across flying this, winning back four is a good idea. It's really, you know, that's foreign couches. Steve, it's interesting when you get them, you know, a sort of unsung hero taking over the national team. And, you know, fascinating that you served in a peckman as well. Do you think that was a great advantage to him to have that sort of skirling with a successful, you know, Columbia card before? - Absolutely. I mean, just going back to a Swindon day for a, for a split second. They actually joined them when they were meant to be going into the first division. At the end of the 89, 90 season, they'd won promotion via the playoffs, but it was all imploded behind the scenes because of financial irregularities and betting scandals and all that type of thing. So it was initial kind of like, you know, from our dealers is come and join me. Come and join my team that's just made it into the first division only in a court or law to be actually sent down to the third division to win on appeal promotion back to the second division about 10 days later, which actually kind of messed Trammy rovers around a lot of scenes to remember because they went, they were handed basically Swindon's place in the second division for, say, for about 10 days before going back down to the third. It was a, it was true that in Sunderland ended up being promoted to the first division. On the back, it finished about sixth in the second division and losing the playoff final. It was, it was just an utterly ludicrous turn of events, but this is the, you know, the landscape in which he arrived at Swindon. And also having just had a season at Barley. And yeah, you know, it's a Barley side that I kind of, I don't know what you want to compare them to at this point in time, maybe kind of like an English version of there may be a child's an athletic or something like that at that point in time. So it's finished ninth in Serie A, you know, it isn't a bad thing. And it also is an era in which you can only sign three foreign players in Serie A, you know, so you've got Serie A clubs having to be particularly choosy over which imports they bring in. It's not the, the, the, the troll, the net that goes through the waters of, of nowadays, you literally can only feel three, you know, non-Italian. So, you know, they've, they've sourced it and, and, and being considered about it. So, you know, as a player, he, he certainly had, you know, he might not be one of the best defenders in the world, one of the best, the most cultured players in the world, but he was clearly doing something right. And to end up in that Argentina squad for the 1990 World Cup and to be a starter in that Cameroon game. And clearly be one of the scapegoats to, you know, on the defeat against Canberra. But then to come back into the final after all all those suspensions that Argentina clocked up as they approached the final. So, you know, there was, there was something about him as a player, but yeah, as a coach, you know, I think you're clearly looking at someone who is adaptable, someone who is something of a sponge for information. You know, he's, you know, taken on the, I don't know, the, the, the learns of Peckham. You know, it's, it's impressive. You know, that you, to get, you know, certain coaches who serve under what are seen as visionary coaches or, you know, expansive coaches. It's not always easy for those perceived underlings to spread the wings elsewhere and, and to achieve. You know, we can, you know, even if we're looking at Michael Artetta, having served under Pep Guardiola, you know, he's still been denied that Premier League title as an FA Cup to his name. But there's, there's, you know, he's still just slightly out of reach of those very biggest prizes. So yeah, you know, it isn't always easy to step out of that shadow, but for him to, to do what he's doing at the minute, you know, and, and to, you know, to guide Colombia through to the Copper America final. And to have them sat very helpful in World Cup qualifying terms as well. You know, I think we can switch the lights out on the fact that, you know, unless they really hit the self-destruct button, they're going to be involved in the 2026 World Cup shadow of doubt. So, and then looking at the football that his teams play as well, yeah, there was a pragmatic edge to the game against Uruguay, which kind of ties into that concept of the hierarchy. Suddenly here we are playing someone that is supposedly ahead of us in the, the food chain as such, the combo ball food chain, yeah, you know, a deference at play and let's be a little bit more circumspect. But, you know, it's succeeded. They've gone out there and got the win, which will just kind of like add to the confidence, the growing confidence. And, you know, and, you know, Lorenzo needs like a lot of credit for this. You know, there's no doubt about it. You know, you can have all the talented players in the world, but to make them play together and to have that, you know, that there is a, an eye of the storm come, you know, time and is everything and, and here they are, you know, so he's clearly taken a lot on from Peckham. You know, he's, he's learned a lot and he's, he's put his own hat on it. Yeah, it's interesting, I guess, you know, when a, when a new coach comes to a club almost inevitably, it's because the previous guy's failed. So, you know, the, you know, the only way is up as it were. And yet, you know, also you've got a problem where players will be lacking confidence and, you know, there's some star players, you know, Hammers Rodriguez was there. And yet he had to, he had to pick these guys up, Stevie. And I guess, perhaps without their experience playing with Peckham and perhaps having the success with the club team before he moved there, confidence wasn't short in him, perhaps, and believe that he could do the job. Yeah, and I think familiarity from the players, perspective, has to play a big part in this. But you say that that's what makes international football fascinating because, you know, you don't have that check, but you can't just say, all right, well, this play is not working out, let's go and sign a new one. You have to look at what's coming up. You have to look at what you've already discarded and can they come back into the picture? You know, there's a very different way of succeeding, a different way of team building and putting these teams together compared to club football. So, you know, there's a lot about the chemistry of teams and, you know, it's the players and it's the coaching staff and everything's got to be harmonious. And that's really difficult to do in international football because you're bringing in these players from, you know, different, different schisms of club origins. And, you know, and within that, you just have to look down the list of the squad that Columbia have taken there and just where they're playing the football across, you know, it's the globally scattered. This is very different to, you know, the squads at Columbia are putting together in 1990, you know, where very few of the players are playing the football outside of Columbia. So, you know, it's a plate spinning at. And in a way, you know, there is always kind of a balance between, you know, the coaches and his players, you know, over, you know, they work in unison, you know, you can't, you can't just give all the credit to one and not the other. You know, the players cannot perform the way that they're doing in this tournament without, you know, the influence of the coach, the vision of the coach, because they set the tone. They set the, you know, they set the parameters. This is what I want my team to do and, you know, bring the players in to play those key component parts. So, but the players have got to buy into that and they've got to feel like the part of it. And, you know, clearly, that is what's happening for Columbia at the minute. I mean, how long that can last? Because, like I said earlier on, that cycle, you know, will not stop, it will go down. And Columbia, you know, the stabilizers will fall off at some point, they'll wobble to the side of the road. And it'll be, and it'll be chilly. We've got the momentum, you know, which is, but, you know, at the minute, everything's fantastic. And I think no matter what happens on Monday, early hours of Monday morning, you've got a great story there. 'Cause Ivy, you've got this amazing turnaround of Columbia from not qualifying from 2022 World Cup to the Inc Opera America winners. Or you've got Argentina doing something absolutely exceptionally, but in three back-to-back major international tournaments that they've been involved. - Yeah, yeah, good point. I guess, you know, he's a million-dollar question, Pete. Bear in mind that, you know, when he took over, he got players like Rodriguez, who sort of, and others who's career sort of almost got his terminal drift away from a middle top-top club. So, even if they're playing in Saudi league and such like, how do you do it? How did Nestor Lorenzo pick these players up, inspire them and get them to play the football they want to? - The successful football. - I mean, that is the million-dollar question. And I think there are various kind of key things. I think firstly, there is a knowledge of what he's got. You know, I think that something that Columbia always did was not just have friendlies for the foreign team, you know, the players at the base to board, they're kind of the first team. And so, when Peckham is putting together his 2014 and '28 squads, you know, they know about all the players in Europe, and again, it's mostly European-based team, but they often have these friendlies of looking at the younger players. And sometimes they're playing the likes of Guatemala or maybe Honduras or maybe some of the kind of Middle East teams or, you know, maybe the USA always seems to be a kind of perennial friendly opponent. So, there is a little bit of a look to what's coming up. So, I think that Lauren was very aware of the talent that was coming up at the time. You know, we don't just see the same squad being picked friendly after friendly. So, I think that knowledge that he has to start with of some of the core players. And I think one of the key things he has done is found a way to get the best out of those players that we're drifting. Hammers Rodriguez is not the player of, you know, of 2014. No, he's not the same player as 2018, you know. He's had a struggle at Everton and Limpeacos. You know, he's barely been playing at Sao Paulo recently. You know, he hasn't got that kind of dynamism that probably he did have, but then he's got to have a new styling. You've got to try and find a way of using that talent that he does have. And I think that what Lorenzo always knew is that, you know, Rodriguez does care a great deal about Colombia. You know, he does care about his country. He's probably played better for his country more often than arguably anyone else in his career. Certainly since Porto, I mean, obviously some glimpses at Real Madrid here and there. But then it's the same with really Davinson Chances. You know, he's obviously left Spurs, gone elsewhere. Diadi Mina has been on a slight slide from, you know, being a Barcelona player at one's brief stage and looking like, you know, the best defender in the continent at one point. You know, now he's at Calieri. So again, his career's been going down. So I think that's been one key issue. I think the other thing that he does is also pick players that will conform to a style and a structure. You know, he looks clearly at desired characteristics. And he's not over swayed by, you know, reputations or names or, you know, or the players that might have the ego. I think that's really important. So, you know, if you look at the two, kind of the two main midfielders of, you know, the three that Colombian play with, you know, I don't think anyone in Europe really, unless you're an absolute, you know, nerd about South American football, would have known much about Richard Rios. And certainly, Colombians wouldn't have either, you know, Richard Rios, who's played for Palmeres, has never played football in Colombia. So he's basically unknown to Colombia. He played foots out. But this was a guy who was effectively picked because of the certain characteristics that Lorenzo thought he had that would be useful. And actually, he was really a kind of bit part player for Palmeres when he's first selected. He's now, you know, he's probably going to be the breakout star of this tournament. I can see him, you know, going to, you know, a big European club, you know, in the next few months. I would not be surprised. And the same with John Arias, who a few people knew a little bit more about because he was playing for Flaminin's in the Coppa Libertador who's finally played against Man City in a very good game in that four-nil win for the Man City of the Flaminin's. But you're picking guys that weren't necessarily the names. Again, you look at someone like Daniel Munoz, who's been absolutely critical. I mean, you know, Kretanously got sent off by Elbow in one of the year agoines yesterday. But Munoz has been key at right back to prevent some of the better teams that Columbia played against from actually playing their football. You know, John Kordlava, the center forward, who's played, who started quite most of those games, is playing at Krasnadar in Russia. And again, has a very good record in there. He had a very good record at Cologne as well. But he's not potentially the name that many Colombians would imagine as being a pinpoint of the Colombian team. You know, you've only got one elite player in Luis Dias. But what you do have is a combination of all those little things that you really need. You know, you've got speed, you've got creativity, you've got lap ulcer, you've got work causes, you've got people who can pass and put their foot in. You've got heights, you've got people who've got very good engines. You know, Jefferson Lederman, you know, again, you know, two Crystal Palace players in a Columbia team, you know, and they're two of the most influential ones. But you have this kind of some of their parts. And it's not ego-based. So I think that's really key. There's a very clear collective focus. I think what's very interesting is what some of the players say about him is that, and what he says as well is that he puts players in situations where they can perform, they can be comfortable and where they can succeed. You know, and I think that's really important. He's not playing players out of position. He's not saying, oh, right, you're a name. I have to play you. We'll have to tinker around. So you have to play there, but it doesn't quite work. You know, he's playing players when they can succeed. Like Miguel Borca, who is a centre forward, who, you know, is a very slightly hot and cold player. He plays a river plate. One of those players that, you know, has runs a form and runs not a form. You know, he put him on at the end towards the end of the Panama game. So he could succeed, you know, and so he can grow in confidence, scores the penalty. Everyone and the team is delighted because they know how much he cares. It's those kind of things. And I think that he is very aware of helping the players succeed and not asking for them too much. And you kind of get the feeling that Rinal Duroir, that potentially maybe Carlos, didn't have that knowledge, didn't have that maybe slightly more paternal, player-based knowledge type of coaching. That seems to be a very key element of Lorenzo's ethos and ethic and focus. So, but I think what you've got, therefore, is someone that knows how to put a team together, knows how to get rid of egos, knows how to find the best of people in different players, isn't just going to keep the same team if he doesn't have to. You know, Rafael Santos-Borez played a couple of games. You know, you've got, you've got, you know, Carlos Scals played, you've got the kind of the magician of Quintero as another bit of potential genius or, you know, if you ever need it. So, you know, I think you've got a really interesting blend that has been put together very craftily. And I think what you'll probably also see is that players like Richard Rios, like John Arias, probably like lookalmi, who I think's at Bologna, maybe Quest, though, who thinks it gank. I wouldn't be surprised if you see some of those, some of those players starting to move to bigger clubs because, you know, it's like Copper America is a shock window, you know, and there are lots of clubs that have got, you know, wallets ready. - Yeah, actually, the million dollar question, Pete, and I think you come up with $999,999 answer there, but if you're at the other door too, I don't think you'd be coaching the team as a good buddy, but yeah, that's what's fascinating. This is an interesting, you say about Crystal Poly's players. Obviously, there's a lot of poly's players doing well in English quite as well. So, you know, right up to the poly's guys. Okay, so, I mean, to general, you're a real sort of home subject here. So, how is it playing out in back in Colombia? I mean, you aren't running enough there, but you know, you're up on the zeitgeist in the country. So, how is it playing out there? I know you've mentioned in the past, I think it's, when you book this, football is the only thing that you're not, so, isn't it? - Yeah, no, it's, I mean, this is really what I do academically. So, I mean, I've spent this morning kind of combing through TwitterX, just looking at the kind of narratives and meanings that have brought out. So, I think you've got to always look at football as being this zero institution, as it's often called, you know. We kind of imagine football as a potential source of power. It's got so much political power, social power, economic power, and it just has to be deployed by anyone that has a message to sell or to use. So, this is what we're seeing going on at the moment, you know, I mean, the whole country, first of all, is delighted. You know, this is only, I think, the third copper America final in the country's history in terms of the men's anyway. You know, we go back to 1975, obviously 2001, and now this year. So, there's a great deal of excitement, and therefore, there's a lot of potential manipulation or deployment of this potential power. So, I think one of the things that, you know, we saw yesterday was pretty much most of the ministers of the Gustavo Petro government, and for those of people who don't know, Petro is a left-leaning or quite substantially left-leaning former Guirea of the M19 who's been president for the last couple of years. He has a kind of a political process looking, which is called the Paz Tottal, Total Peace, where he's trying to have lots of different negotiations with the different guerrilla organizations that still exist, different paramilitary organizations, different criminal groups. So, this is the kind of the social context. There are still all the kind of divisions that Columbia's had. Petro himself has been wearing the national shirt while doing various events, unsurprisingly, so of all his ministers. We saw, for example, the Minister of Sport, the Minister of Science, both all kind of tweeting things wearing the Colombian shirt. It's the messages that are instinct. Petro is slightly more of an improviser. He doesn't really have a consistent message where he deploys sport necessarily for the nation, nowhere near as much as President Santos did, who was the president in 2014, 2018. That's the main subject of my book. But what you can see in certainly the Minister of Sport and the Minister of Science, and also the Foreign Affairs Office, is the same words coming out about peace, unity, the whole country. Every Colombian is supporting you. We're all happy, we're all proud. We see these kind of values of bravery, of dedication, of happiness, that are very much part of a Colombian general idea to try and change the way the country is perceived. We all know what Colombia is infamous for, but there is always, therefore, a kind of an attempt to show that there is something different about the country, that's the country of beauty. In fact, that's something that Petro did say this is the country of beauty. So that's obviously a very similar note in lots of ways to the kind of things that the Santos government was saying. I mean, I'm interested in hashtags. Again, this is a kind of an academic thing, but what's interesting is that the hashtag for this tournament is Orgoyo Nacional, National Pride. So we're not talking about peace, which is often quite a contentious subject when you're considering guerrilla organizations that lots of Colombians are kind of seized, public enemy number one. It's a kind of a much more of a free term, an unloaded term. We're just being proud about being Colombian, which might be an easier way to unite than let's just unite with peace in mind. So I think, and that's been a hashtag that everyone is using, whether it's government institutions, but also some of the press as well. And it's part of also ongoing campaigns of the government. So that's kind of, it's nice to see how football's part of that. Again, the press are, as you can imagine, as kind of narrators of national successes in the way that the country should receive this. One of the things that most interested me was the way they talked about Colombia, the kind of war-like. I mean, it was as fighters, the Gereros, the warriors. But then they talked about console football illegally, with its happy football. So there's a kind of like this duality of the two polar oppositions of Colombia has been this warrior nation of violence, but also happy football. So I found that very interesting. It was very much seen as a battle. So we have a lot of these heroic narratives, but seeing Uruguay as this violent physical, you know, dirty, you know, that kind of narrative is also their enemy. And again, I think one of the other interesting aspects of who's been talking why is the peace aspect is there. You know, I've seen a couple of peace organizations also saying that, you know, football is for peace. You know, let's remember this. And the whole country is celebrating together. And one more kind of little point is that one of the, the national indigenous organization, a kind of a part of the country that's often been maligned, often being seen as lesser in old imaginary, the nation, somehow backward. You know, they have got their here in Luis Diaz, you know, that the great here of Colombian football is an indigenous Colombian of the YU kind of community of La Guajida. So he's also a point of celebration. So, you know, you have all these, these lovely imaginaries going on and these kind of interesting messages. And I think it'll be interesting to see what happens, you know, win or lose on Monday morning, see what kind of narratives are present. But what will certainly be happening is that, you know, probably a lot of these enjoyments of football will be to the tune of, you know, the kind of the Colombian copra-america official song, which is done by, being done by a guy called Ryan Castro, which also features Luis Diaz and Juan del Quintan and Quintaro doing some rapping. So we have this line of "Mummy," "Prendelario" in Cien de La Telly, kind of "Mum," put the radio on turn on the telly, which feels like it's becoming the song of, you know, the Colombian summary of your life. It feels like that's going to be an anthem, you know, that's kind of resonating around the country, around, you know, these kind of tiny bars and tiny kind of salsa venues and around TV sets all around the country. So that's all we're seeing. So we're seeing certainly a lot of political messages, a lot of social messages, a lot of, you know, a lot of manipulation in different ways, maybe sometimes a bit more improvised, but certainly there is kind of defined process of trying to see this kind of hope for the country as well. And the victory would only kind of dynamise that even further. - The Columbia equivalent of it's coming home. - Absolutely. - Yes, okay, so that's the sort of president, I'm just going to address it on a bit before we just, before we sort of disappear, I want us to look at the future first, the final Monday. Stevie, can they beat Argentina and will they beat Argentina? - The can, the can and will, that's the thing, it's welding can too, well, that there were anything in football can happen, it's making it will turn into will happen. Argentina on the crest of an incredible wave, but so will Columbia. Again, might come down to that hierarchy. You know, they've gone toe to toe with Brazil and the group stages, they were going to a lot of confidence from that. They've defeated Uruguay in the semi-finals. Which version of Columbia will tip up? Will they be flowing and going for it? Like they have done at times during this competition, or will they be that little bit more circumspect? You know, haven't been circumspect against Uruguay, Argentina might position themselves, you know, not to fall for the same punchline. So they're going to have to come at it with a slightly different approach, but there's no reason why they can't catch Argentina off balance. I've got to be bullish and say yes. Why not? Columbia need to win this and they're going to do. - You need to shake up, shake up. That's where you come in and be grateful. - It's great, it's great that Argentina have risen again. It's great that they won the World Cup. You know, the World Cup desperately needed a South American winner after Seoul. - They agreed, okay. - You know, and that's nothing against Argentina whatsoever. But in the name of variation and as many teams doing well as possible, yeah, it would be great for Columbia to win. - Same question here with a little added sort of one as well. And if they did win, what would that mean? What would that mean for Columbia football? - So can they win? I think they have to win it in normal time. I fear that the somehow, the witchcraft and incredibly annoying presence of Debo Martinez or Emilio Martinez in goal is kind of almost a defining power in the penalty shootout. So I fear for any team that has to be Argentina on penalties just because they've done it, you know, they've won some big ones. The Martinez has got some like a 50% stop-dridge ratio in the penalty shootouts. I think the referee will play a key part. I think one of the main, I mean, I think Uruguay last night and certainly what Uruguay did against Brazil as well was played very physical football. You know, I think that almost quite and be also like actually. I think it's quite, I felt quite disappointed in how, I'm not surprised either in how they play against Brazil. There's a lot of rivalry and a lot of history in that game. But I think that Uruguay more than that. And I think one of the problems in this particular copper America has been that type of refereeing of allowing a little bit too much, you know, and that often has led to the cynical fouls, then things tend to degenerate. If that's the kind of game it is, then I think it could really go either way. It really could because I think that it will just take the corner, it will take a bit of magic, it will take a bit of dynamism. They tend not to be the games where the really flow players most shine. It often tends to be slightly more dynamic players who can make that real rush. And Colombia, we've got a few of those. You know, Argentina are heavy favourites. You know, I think there's obviously the narratives of Messi, you know, to consider, is this his last major tournament? Should he go out for a win? You know, will he go out on a win? It's obviously in the US as well. I think the, I wonder what impact the crowd violence at the end of the year of the year of why Colombia game will have. Well, we see it down the way of knowing years, having a fight, or various other year of playing players, you know, fighting, stroke, protecting their families from Colombian fans. You know, it takes two to tango, but you know, I wonder what extent now it is will turn slightly against the Colombian fans who have generally been, in most tournaments, one of the prime joys of international tournaments. Not just the men's tournaments as well. I think, you know, certainly we look back to 2023 women's World Cup. You know, the Colombian fans were fantastic in that and provide the candle and provide the colour. You know, and there's a very large diaspora in the US as well. So I feel that Colombia have to win it in normal time. That's why I kind of think, but I think they can do it. I don't think Argentina are playing at their best, but they've equally got, you know, very, very good, dangerous forwards. You can score that goal, you know, in one second. What will it mean to the country? It will mean a colossal amount. Will it be transformational in terms of, you know, wider society? No. The message that infrared can, will they be there? Yes. You know, we will see, probably the president inviting them to the presidential palace, whatever happens, and we'll see a speech that no doubt will associate them with national values and unity and teamwork and probably the peace process as well. We will see an explosion of joy if they win like, like probably Colombia hasn't seen, probably since. Oh, God, I don't want to say 1993, 'cause about 80 people died in Bogota or alone after that win against Argentina, but hopefully they will celebrate with a little bit more sense, if you like. But I think it will be a major landmark historic moment. You know, it's a kind of another argument for hierarchy. It will be a huge confidence boost in lots of ways. It will be a moment that, again, relegates the traditional typical narratives of drugs, violence, the sidelines, and that's always a good thing. No doubt the sun, when they see it, will come up with some cocaine-related pun that will ruin everything from that kind of gut-oppressed that we don't expect anything less of. You know, I think it could potentially be, you know, it's that kind of feel-good factor that Colombia always needs. How much that is exploited by a president who's not particularly good at doing sporting, national, and projects I don't know. But there certainly are other organisations that will know how to exploit it. And we can look at, you know, the football for peace projects around the country that, you know, we'll see potentially renewed interest and those kind of things going on. I think it's worth also mentioning the women's football, you know, here, you know, in terms of what that, what also happens there. You know, we have last, the last two years in 2022 when, you know, Colombia aren't in the Qatar World Cup final. You know, they're under 17 team are World Cup runners up. You know, that's the Linda Cacello generation. The under 20 team got to the quarterfinals of their version of the World Cup. The women's full team, you know, in 2022 were the runners up in the Copra America hosted in Colombia. Last year, you know, 2023, Colombia are in the, are in the quarterfinals, they lose to England. You know, but beat Germany have a great tournament. Linda Cacello, it becomes a star. I hope that women's football is not obscured, but women, the women's team are in the Olympics coming up. So we have this perfect switch transfer from Colombia doing really well in the Copra America to hopefully the women's team, hopefully doing really well in the Olympics, which will give a chance this dual narrative of both men and women representing Colombia, providing examples of what the country is. And I really hope that happens. You know, I think that will be a major moment. I think one of the most important things as well is that, you know, we have two very interesting heroes. You know, we have Linda Cacello, who is an Afro-Columbian, being the star and pin-up girl of the women's team at Real Madrid. And we have Luis Diaz, a kind of YU Indigenous person, you know, as the star of the men's team. And they are traditionally two figures that are on the margins of Colombian imaginaries. So that itself, you know, is a really interesting, a major, really interesting symbol and a really interesting situation for Colombian football as a whole to being in 2024. - Yeah, it's fascinating. You've mentioned better than good to press. I mean, friends, Joe would be a headlock in which it wasn't the somebody that came to that's where it said success for Colombia with like a shot in the arm, to, I mean, you're just thinking, you know, what do you do, I mean, you know, does that sort of hidden metaphorism there of the drugs and anyway, that's, you know. - That's like that go cane, that go cane headline in 2018 as well, like the septus. - They want to slap. Anyway, if anybody wants to watch the game as the guys have mentioned very early on Monday morning, so stay up, watch England, beat Spain. Hopefully he said fingers crossed. Hopefully no Spanish friends of mine are listening. And then, you know, switch over and watch Colombia, hopefully beat Argentina and a great little bit of history. So that was our conversation about the upsurging Colombian fortunes on their new coach show. Thanks, Pete, for your magnificent knowledge and expertise again, but it really enjoyed it. Politics in football, you can't whacky Kenya. - All right, it's always a pleasure. Thanks very much for the space. It's always good to talk about these things. I just hope it's a good game. I feel, you know, world football, particularly given what Beelza said about the way football is going. And I think what we've discussed a lot, you know, world football needs two good finals with good football being played. So let's hope that your England and Spain and Colombian Argentina, you know, can put two games on and, you know, hopefully, you know, the right teams win. Stay here, sir. Stay here, if you enjoyed it, mate. Oh, fantastic. As always, yeah, an absolute joy, grand. Okay, guys, so thanks for that. And thanks for listening in, guys. So I hope you've enjoyed it. And catch us again next time on the vlog podcast from these football times. We're from now, bye. - Many thanks for joining us today on Molob at these football times production. For more of our content, check out our award-winning print magazine featuring some of the game's foremost writers, artists and photographers exploring areas of the game rarely covered in high-end print. For now, we look forward to you joining us again soon.