These Football Times
Los Leones: the unique story of Athletic Club
(upbeat music) - Welcome to The Lob, your home of in-depth coverage and analysis by these football times, a movement of journalism you can trust. Each week, we endeavor to bring you the very best coverage of the game, exploring stories from the past and present, with analysis by expert guests from around the world. Find more about award-winning content online and in print. In the meantime, enjoy the podcast. - Good evening and welcome to the Center Circle podcast by these football times. I'm your host, Teresa Richards. Today, we have a very special episode and guest. We're here to lift the lid on one of Euro's most unique, storied and at times steadfastly traditional football clubs, Athletic Club Bilbao, from Spain's Basque Country, one of Spain's oldest clubs and Spain's fourth most successful club with eight La Liga titles and Númano Scóbas. To get us through this tricky territory of Basque nationalism, come to culture and identity, we have Chris Evans. Chris is the author of the recently published Los Leones, the unique story of Athletic Club Bilbao. Chris had booked a fantastic insight in the history and identity of the club. But before we meet our special guest, I'll introduce you to my co-hosts here at these football times. Firstly, to add some authenticity, we have our man in Spain, armed with pinchers and red wine to keep us hydrated. We have the super prolific author and podcaster, Gari Saka. How are things that you've got? Are you excited about this? - I am, Richard. Athletic Club are certainly a unique club in Spain, and aside from all our local boys, I see Colovieca, my Fabics Spanish club, and they are, you know, the history of the club there, the ethics of the club, and they're sort of standing in the area where they are the Basque Country, just make them absolutely a top unique club. And, you know, I just signed before we become an heir to create someone who needs to write the book, and it made a fantastic job, I would recommend anybody to read the book. If you know about the Athletic Club, it'll only just reinforce that. If you don't know about the Athletic Club, this is a great way to introduce you to them. - Absolutely great plug there, Gari. Yeah, pick it up as well with a read. Secondly, we're joined by Stephen Scrag, Liverpool's favorite son, and prolific author himself. So Steve, Athletic Club, traditional, rebellious, outsiders, they're a bit unfashionable. That's a bit of you, Steve. - Absolutely, it's the troublemaker at the back of the class, isn't it, who muddles on through, and does brilliant things sometimes, but there's a lot of dysfunction there. I relate massively. - Yeah, me too, that one. Right, it's time to introduce our special guest then. So welcome along everyone, Chris Evans, author, journalist, new Portonian. I'm not sure if that's the correct order. So he's written Lost Leones, and this book takes us through the origins of the club, all the way to the modern day, describing the key features of this unique and storied football club. So welcome to us, Chris, how are you? - Yeah, I'm good, thanks. And thanks for having me on the podcast. It's a pleasure, I'm really looking forward to chatting with you all about a great football club. - Yeah, pleasure, that was a bit. So I guess the first and most obvious question is, why Athletic Club, what is it about that football club that really inspired you to write this? - Yeah, funnily enough, I was chatting to Gary just before we started recording. And there are quite a few things that sort of got me interested in Athletic. I mean, initially, obviously, I think like a lot of people who are interested in Athletic Club is to do with the philosophy. You know, this philosophy of playing with only past players, which is really unique, really, and unique in the world is the term they use. There's the Mexican team, Kivas, who sort of do only play with Mexican players, but I think they're only playing with past players, sort of like a hyper geographical version of that, which I think is amazing. It's such a small population that they do so well. So that interested me, obviously. And then I'm also from Calián on the experience of Newport, and we house Basque refugee children during the Spanish Civil War, and I think there were 57 children, and the boys from the fantastic football team became known as the Basque and Beatables, and the Basque when the boys. So I wrote a few articles about them, for Nation Camry. We got invited, eventually, and we're also work with the Basque Children's Association, and we got invited over to Sam Ames for the 85th anniversary of the refugees from the UK, and sort of things snowballed from there, and I got more and more interested. Obviously, I was interested as well, being a man United fan and Newport County, by the way. The BLC team of 2012 were amazing, and fascinated me, they absolutely destroyed United. So all these sort of things were interested me, and I'd look for an athletic club book for years, and there wasn't one, and eventually I just thought, why not have I got myself? So it was very nerve-wracking, but a long-winded answer, by the way. But that's why I went for it in the end, yeah. - No, we love long-winded answers, yeah. Especially ones. Especially ones of the place South Wales in the center of the football universe. That's all I said. Always welcome, Abayayes, anyway. Like you said, you know, they are such a unique and interesting club. Obviously, you referenced the fact you've been there. You've been able to build a bar a couple of times. I've been there myself, for whatever reason, I never managed to catch a game at San Mamez. I remember once I was leaving on the day of the game, and what hammered home to me was just the relationship between the city and the people. Because in so many countries and so many cities, you'll be somewhere, there'll be a football match somewhere in the city, and it'll completely pass you by. Which is, I'm sure you'll agree, completely impossible in Bilbao. It reminded me slightly of, you know, like Cardiff on a international rugby day. You know, when you see just the sea of red and the flags everywhere, you know, from kids to old ladies, we're in the Rochi Blanco, we're in the jersey. So, yeah, there's definitely something there in terms of the close relationship between the city and the club itself. Did that, so to ask you, Stephen, obviously, as I live a puddly under that, kind of, strike a chord with you? - Absolutely. I mean, there's certain places that just absorb football, where it's, you know, it's as almost as important as a food and drink, you know, as family. You know, it's way more important than employment. It's way more important than, you know, your next-door neighbors, and the vast majority of things in your life. And, yeah, you know, there's certain places that you just walk into. And I've not been to Bilbao, but I've been in the Basque region of not being a million miles away. And it is one of those places that just, I don't know, it had the kind of like, choose you up and spit you out, or it just sinks into yourself, you know, and there's so many places like that around the world. But, yeah, so many common themes there. Without a shadow of an outcome. - And Gary, is there a man on the ground in Spain? Is there anywhere near by to you that kind of can compete in any way with the Atlantic? Or are they really the gold standard in that respect? - They're definitely a club on their own. I mean, I'm fortunate to have been to Bilbao a couple of times as well. And I've been to that. I mean, if anybody goes to Bilbao and you can't go to the game, do the tour of the new San Nemes. It's probably the best stadium to have. And I've been around a few. I've said I've been around a few in Spain and that's a stunning tour. And I always think something about, I was talking to the guys who were doing the tour around the stadium. And there's something special about Basque people as well. This sort of, I say, can do attitude. Almost, it's not a can do, it's can do better attitude, you know. If somebody said I can drive to Madrid in three hours, a Basque yourself and do it in two and a half, you know. It's that sort of thing. And the river as well, I mean, the river now is, well, we went a couple of years ago. The river now is fine, but you should be the massively polluted and you'll never solve that. Yeah, we will. And they have this thing about when the new San Nemes, I remember when Tottenham built the new Tottenham stage. I don't know which corner of Tottenham stage or something like that, knew what our line. It took them two years. The Basques built the new San Nemes in a cloud season and with the curtain on one goal. We're aside from that, to turn the stadium around and build it in a cloud season, talk about can do attitude, as they can do better attitude. It's a unique place. And the relationship between the people of Bilbao and the club is so close, it's so intimate that you can't tease the part. There's no, if you're living in Bilbao, but if you're a Bilbao, you support athletic. You know, there's no ifs and buts and berries. And just interesting, not far from me, but in the middle of the town living with Torvieka here in the down south. There's an athletic Le Pena. I go there quite often for, you know, to watch games and to, I mean, the food that they do, Basque food as well, right place. I mean, it just shows that sort of closely to the sort of, I don't know, you can't, you can't. There's not many clubs. I mean, Stevie will probably say a little bit more similar. And he perhaps isn't in some ways, but it's not as intense as that sort of, because there's everything in Liverpool as well. There's no other club in Bilbao than athletic. Just one word of word, if you do go to it, Bilbao and go to it again, do not cope with the athletic Bilbao because you'll get turned up very, very quickly until it's not quite the cold. I might mistake once and every day. - Yeah, I think Chris, we mentioned this. When we first said you were writing this book and you said you had potential difficulties with the title of what to call the club because there's a bit of debate there, isn't there? - Well, yeah, there is. And, you know, I went with Athletic Club Bilbao in the end, which is on the badge. You know, they are also known as Athletic Club Bilbao, but that's got Spanish connotations, which the Basques don't like. So that's the reason why I avoided that. And, yeah, and as Gary said, never athletic Bilbao, Bilbao, yeah, they'll lynch you. - Very, well, a nation, a city that takes its team incredibly seriously. And just to touch on what Gary was saying there, about the confidence in the city and the can do better attitude, to have this Basque only policy, the cantella system, clearly you need self-belief for that to run. So it's not an ask you briefly about that, Chris, could you tell us maybe the origins of the policy, how it's been implemented, how it looks these days? What I wanted to tag onto this as well is how the fans feel about it, you know? I'm always nervous when we talk about kind of a homogenous fan identity, because there must be decent invoices in any fan group. There must be people who maybe see where they are murdered by killing Mbappe and thinking, you know, I wouldn't mind a piece of that. Like a shiny new striker. So are there decent invoices within that fan group that maybe, I don't know, maybe a frustrated slightly by the cantera policy? - Well, I can answer that quite easily, to be honest, Rhys, no. Coming across everything, I've not seen, or really spoken to anybody who wants the cantera policy, you know, la philosophy, as they call it, to change. There are those who would like maybe to amend it slightly. So I interviewed Andini Goikachia for the book, and, you know, the legendary Butcher of Bilbao, which she doesn't like being called by the way. So I'm not advocating that. But he sort of said, it should be open to the Basque diaspora. So there's a big, you know, Basque diaspora in America, in South America, in Central America, and the rest of Spain, obviously. And he thinks that the philosophy should be open to this endence of Basque people and, you know, further afield, basically. But I wouldn't say the philosophy, you know, I don't think they would ever change it. I can't see it happening. I just think every athletic fan I've spoken to, that's what makes them unique. That's what makes, you know, that's what builds this bond. Like Gary said, there's a, you know, there are one club city and the fact, you know, everywhere you go, you can't avoid athletic. The bars are red and white. You know, even if you don't like football and in Bilbao, you still know about it. You know what's going on. It's unavoidable, you know, it's simply unavoidable. But, and then the quickly answered your question about the philosophy is an interesting one. It actually comes from the 1911 Coppadel. It was called the Coppadel, Cara Nasi on, I believe. It was just a Coppadel right now. And Real Sociedad, their Basque rivals complained about athletic fielding an ineditable player earlier on in the tournament. And so athletic give them, you know, their very sort of stubborn middle finger and said, well, we're only going to play with Basque players. Whether they intended to do that just for the following season, who knows, but 100 years later where we are, they're still doing it. And it still seems to be working as the Coppadel right-wing sort of shows. Yeah, the results speak for themselves, I guess. They've had so many, and even if you're up beyond trophies, so many great Basque players have come through that system. And I guess it speaks to the fundamental things that you dream of as a football fan. I guess everyone dreams of 11 local lads wearing last shirt and putting them on the badge. And as football, as we become more globalized, and, you know, the bigger the football team that you support, it seems to go further and further away from that. So, yes, that's something that you could have, I know, Steven, you're a man who's fond of nostalgia. Is that something you sometimes dream about to be in the reality with a mega-club like Liverpool? I think it's from a Liverpool perspective. I mean, we've always been a kinder to send it on podcast many times. It's a city that looks out to the sea for its influences. So we've been a city that absorbs, you know, from everywhere, often, sometimes there was the 51st state of the United States of America, you know, and all sorts. It's an outpost of Ireland, we're a little bit of everything. So we are kind of like, we have our own bespoke way of doing things. But, yeah, you know, we're team full scales. But even then, you know, from Liverpool perspective, I mean, it's the concept of kind of like Trent Aarles, you know, Robbie Fowler, Steven Gerard and all of those in the Premier League era, it tends to go forgotten that local lands were kind of frowned upon back in the '70s and '80s. And they had to be 120% to everyone else's 100% of the crowd had got on the back, you know, and all of that. So Liverpool's a different kettle of fish in that respect. But, yeah, the concept of a team of scalars would be, yeah, a pipe dream, but it would be interesting to see. Maybe you could even open it out to players who look like scalars, there's that, who's the player for? Is it Gil, the, the Spurs player? - We do have a little bit of that, because Diogo Jotta, you know, looks incredibly scout. He really does, he looks absolute scalars, anything. I mean, when he tipped up and he was signed and they did the reveal, and this walk up to Cameron, and they gave him a scout phrase to kind of like to say. And he, honestly, it's easy for Gaddy's Portuguese from Liverpool Spartans back then. - Yeah, we'll get into the Basque look later on. Interesting what we mentioned there, Steve, up. Potentially additional pressure on local lads. And I guess, Gaddy, if you want to come in on this, you know, there's the club itself with the relatively rigid system that they have that must put an almost pressure on the young players, I mean, you think, but if you're up and come in, a young player in the youth setup, I suppose your path to the first team is a little bit more linear than the potential of the other players. And with that, come certain pressures. - Yeah, absolutely. Just for people listening here as you use the word "contenna", it's, it's, it's, it's, that's Castilian Spanish for. It means the quarry, where players are sort of young from the land, I mean, I think the Basque really have a beer, I think, rather than a contender. But anyway, you know, it's, it's that, it's the key thing is that they're part of the Basque country. They come from the Basque country. And you do get more, there's a greater passion, I think, players coming through from the youth team because they're brought up in the athletic club way. The training ground, the training system is populated by former players or Basque former players. And it's, it's massively important. You get players who, who leave, just a couple of examples kept a release of a lager who left athletic club to go Chelsea, was sort of deemed to try to, you know, when you're playing, when you get into the athletic club first team, that's far more important than playing international football. That's far more important than winning European trophies. You are celebrated person to, to be a first team player. To be a player of any sort of the teams in athletic club. You are celebrated and lauded. And if you, if you sort of cash that in for potential more money, you know, the club or wherever, you know. And so you get so many, because of that, you get so many players at athletic club who are one club players because they've, they've been brought up in a philosophy, not in the content of philosophy, but also the philosophy of the club and how important it is. It is, it is the Basque club. And if you're, if you're a Basque and you play for a athletic club, that's your, you know, you are, your Basque royalty, your Basque royalty. - I'm so glad you said that, Gary, that you said there were the Basque club because that's going to launch into my next question for, for Chris, because as we did, there might be the Basque club, but there are others. So at the moment, actually 20% the La Liga is Basque. So we have the great rivals. We also see that who are on a great run. Osasuna also and Alives. So there's, you know, that's 20% of the league potentially should ABAR go up from Segunda. That would be, that would be a quarter of the league would be Basque. However, as Gary points out, definitely to the outsiders, athletic club, enjoy this status as being synonymous with Basque culture almost at times like a kind of a de facto national side. Now, what's great about your book, Chris, is that it's not a hagiography to, to a theoretical, but you do look at some of the dissent devices. Now, I know you mentioned it, you, you speak to a few really associated advance. So how do they view this status that the club athletic enjoy as, as, let's say, again, the Basque club? - Yeah, that's an interesting question. And to be honest, speaking about the other Basque clubs, you're probably better off asking some fans from the other clubs. What will they think of athletic? I don't think it'll be particularly kind, if I'm honest. I think, I spoke to Phil Ball. I think that's what you're alluding to, Rhys, the brilliant author of-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Check him out of the best, Chris, come on. - No, no, I'm not. - No, he was great, to be honest, he's great to speak to Phil. And like I said, he's a brilliant writer, his book more, but was a huge influence on me, huge influence on me. So I knew he was not a fan of athletic, shall we say? He's a, I think he's a Grimmsby fan, actually, but he lives in Bonnastilla, San Sebastian. So he's obviously a now a Real Sociedad fan. And he certainly sticks the boot in, shall we say, to athletic, I think he thinks it's all a bit far circle. He said, athletic are very parochial, this whole fashion. They live in this bubble fantasy world of their own. He says a few more stronger things. But you can see his point, athletic fans will say, he's just jealous, Real Sociedad fans are jealous, 'cause they're not the biggest club. Although, they've got a brilliant Kanterra system as well. And they're doing very well at the moment, as they beat athletic in the Cup of the Early Final a couple of years ago. But he thinks Real Sociedad produce as many, if not more, Basque players from their Kanterra. And there's probably an argument for that, to be honest. But you know, the Basque, the other Basque teams out, the Derby is a friendly occasion, really. But there is that, you know, sibling rivalry almost. And, you know, it goes back to an athletic coach, Joseba Escherberia. And there's been a few other cases in Eagle Martinez, who's now, I say, plays for Barcelona. He doesn't get on the pitch, but, you know, we left for athletic. So, I think there's no argument that the biggest Basque club, there's just not, historically, they've won the most trophies. They're the oldest club. They, you know, they are the most famous. But are they a representation of the Basque country, yes. But then there is an argument that these other clubs you've mentioned, Reese, are just as Basque as athletic. And that's what Phil points out when I spoke to him. - Yeah, I really enjoyed Phil's contribution to your book. He's got a definitely wicked sense of who, whether I did that to the book, I really enjoyed. So, one of the set pieces, I guess, of Chris's book is the 1976 derby between L'Aurele del Socidad and Athletic Bilbo. This game has kind of gone down in infamy, if you like, in Spanish football, due to the fact that it took place, you know, directly after the death of General Franco and was notable about this, about this game, is the imagery of both captains carrying out the Basque flag, the Icarunia, which, of course, was outlawed by Spanish law at the time. Many of those kind of displays of Basque nationalism were really frowned upon, and though Franco had recently died in legal terms, that was still an illegal act, so kind of a clandestine plot between the two captains. It's something really fascinating that's still spoken about today. Gary is our man on the ground in Spain. How's that kind of, how's that remembered these days? - Well, I wasn't a written span in 1970s, but, yeah, it is. Each one of those sort of games where the score, and nobody ever remembers the score of the game. Well, Larry Owl beat Athletic Club five mil, but nobody remembers that. It was all the massive focus of the game. There were all the memories of that game are before the game started, when the two skippers, Nesio Corta Berilla, and Kribar walked out side by side carrying the Basque flag, which had been banned, as you quite rightly say, by Franco, since 1939, at the end of the Spanish Civil War, and Franco had this sort of massive project in the Basque country called them the Traitor State, because they had fought for the republic against his nationalists. So, it was a massive thing, they put the, the skippers took the flag onto the picture and put it there, and they sent a circle. And, you know, it was an active rebellion, and it was time was perfect, because a year later, the following year, the Basque flag, the Carina, was unbanned. So, you know, it was a brave thing to do. I mean, you know, it's a very temperamental time for the Spanish society, and not only in football, but also political sphere as well. But, it made a statement, and it was, it had the desired effect. - Chris, could you give us a little bit of the back story there? Like I said, there must have been some kind of plot in order for this to happen. - Yeah, sure. So, the actual, the idea came from a player. Now, I always struggled to say this. He was a real Sociedad player, sort of bit part player, and his name was Jose Antonio de los Oranga, but his name was Hoxian Oranga. So, he was a very, very pertissised person, and it was his idea. He got his sister to the south, this Icarina flag. He didn't tell what for, and she only actually found out on the radio, the following day, about what had happened. But yeah, he snuck the flag in, in the boot of his car, and it got past sniffer dogs and all sorts, I believe. And then he put the idea forward, and then I think the two captains, Ira Bar and Cote Verrea, agreed to do, you know, to take out his idea. And I spoke to Ira Bar for the book, actually, and I standardly asked him about it, and he's probably been asked about it a million times, but you could see, he wasn't bored to talk about it, and you could see that you could feel his pride and passion about being involved in an incident that is, you know, one of the massive thing in Basque history. As Gary says, he goes far beyond football, doesn't it? Because now that flag is synonymous with the region, you see it everywhere, if you're lucky enough to go to Basque Country, it's absolutely everywhere, but obviously not the case in '76. It's one of the other set pieces of your book that I had to speak about, the classic brawl at the Punabayo. This is the Copa del Rey final with Barcelona. And let's just, you know, let's look at this like a science exam, okay? Let's just look at a chemistry class here. Let's just weigh up the combustible elements. So we've got Clemente against Menothi. Ideologically opposed, really, not fans of one another. We've got Gokuchera, the butcher of Bilbao, and the man whose ankle he'd broken, Maridonna. Basque Country against Catalonia, all those combustible elements. Steve, what can go wrong? - Hopefully everything, and it does. This is just one of the greatest moments in football history. We're without a shadow of doubt. You watch it over and over and over again, and never tire of it, which sounds absolutely terrible when you come to look at the footage. But there's one particular kick that Maridonna does in that fight that just lays out, you know, one individual, and I'm sure he's only just coming around now. You know, it is just a magnificent piece of, I don't know, whatever you wanna call it, a visual art, almost, you know, because it's not just an incident that is spur of the moment. It's because it's got that backstory of, you know, the breaking of Maridonna's ankle by Gokuchera, Gokuchera can like the personally kind of, in case of his boot in a glass, you know, in a glass case and put it on display and all this type of stuff. It's just got everything going for it because it's just, you have your anti-heroes in football and landscapes, be it, be it, you know, although it's Suarez or whatever. But, you know, you're anti-heroes tend to be a one-off character in a football and kitchen sink drama. But this is one of those very, very rare occasions when this is kind of like a landscape plastered of anti-heroes, you know, it's harder to find those who aren't anti-heroes as part of this particular flashpoint than those who are. And it is, it's just, if you'd never seen it before, it's utterly shocking in the most, you know, stunning a ways because it's just something that you would not see in contemporary, you know, the League of Football, a couple of del Rey final is not going to erupt in, you know, it's all pushing and shoving nowadays. You might, you might get, you know, a stray elbow or all that type of stuff. You know, this was just kind of everything. You know, this was, I don't know, it was Hagler Hearns, Leonard and Jeramp all rolled into one. And the animosity involved, the explosion of violence on that pitch was just absolutely stunning. I'd say any time I trip across this footage, you can't watch it just once, you've got to watch it, multiple occasions, and then kind of like, you'll scroll away from it, but then you'll scroll back to it just to kind of like, see it again, because it doesn't matter how many times you see it, you just, there's always something that you've not spotted before as well. And this is just, I don't know, yeah, it's just that, that, it is a wonderful thing. You know, I don't care what anyone says, it's magnificent. It's fight club in terms, in football in terms, it's, it's, it's, it's magnificently brutal. - She a madness. You must have been like an ellipse, Chris, when I came to write in this, you must have thought, okay, this is something I could devote a chapter to and really get my teeth into it. - Yeah, yeah, it was. And, you know, when I was planning the book, that was at the forefront of my mind. But when I did speak to people about it, so I interviewed Endika, who scored the only goal of the game, I thought that one would know, as well as go good chair about the match. And they're actually, I think they, they disappointed that the, you know, they wouldn't, aesthetic win the double by winning that game. But it's never remembered for the fact that aesthetic win the double, it's always remembered for, you know, Maradona making Cantana look like a wimp and just, and the brawl afterwards, it's, that's what it's remembered for. And what, there is one quote I like, Maradona afterwards was saying they were out to get him. And he's got a massive gash on his leg from where good good chairs kicks him after the match. And good good chair said in the press that Maradona had made them expressively with scissors and they're with a right smile. So I sort of, it just carried on afterwards. So, you know, the brawl, they think about their system, that rivalry kept going and going and going. But it did overshadow what was a historic double for athletic that year. But yeah, the scene, like Stephen said it, you can't help but watch it and watch it over again and over again. But yeah, it was, it was, it was fun to write about. - And like you say, it's, it's massively significant for athletic due to the fact, you know, it's place and they're double. But also the segue, you know, to look at the other side, the sliding doors effect, you know, the effect that this has on Maradona's career, what was him, a Barcelona basically forcing him to, to Napoli and everything that comes afterwards. You know, it's a hugely significant game. So it must have been, yeah. Something really looking forward to. What did you make of it, Gary? - Well, as the guy said, you know, it's, I've read a couple of reports of the Spanish press and the game and one of them said, a fight broke out. I mean, are you out of luck? 17 fights broke out at the same time and then melded into one big brawl. I mean, it, it, it, that again is, you know, it's a bit like the, again, we talk about a couple of minutes earlier about the flag. This in '84 was the last time, 40 years ago until the recent success was the last time that the chance, athletic club, the chance to build to bring out the Gabab, the barge that they take along the, the Nervion River to celebrate their success. And that get again, it's a success that's been, as, as Chris quite rightly said, sort of, I wish I'd have bought this amazing thing. I found this sort of quite as a guy called, Ralph's, Santiago, who wrote for Marker. And he, he used the word, I'm not sure what this word means, it's translated very well. Am I a Gideon or fist, feet, feet, boats and blood? The climax has names and surnames and numbers. It reprehensible and exposions were required. Schuster grabbed a can of three, which into the public, immediately repeating it with another metal can of soda. Now this punishable was the term with general uproar, dangerous and incredible. The end was the end in itself. It couldn't be the end of football. It was a terrible story. I mean, it was a terrible story, but we saw us, as the guys have said, it's just compulsive viewing, it's train wreck viewing, it's car wreck viewing. I mean, the fights and, I mean, you know, the Maradona jumping kick is like something out of mixed martial arts, Conor McGregor. I would have been proud of it, I'm sure. I would have mentioned Risa as well. We saw about Maradona and Goca Chair. People forget that Goca Chair had badly injured Schuster the year before he injured Maradona. And I think he ended up missing the World Cup or the Euro, something like that. So, you know, there was a lot, a lot of bad blood leading up to it. And, yeah, and it obviously all spilled out at the end of the game, yeah, crazy. That's your mate you're talking about as well there, Chris. So we'll come to that now. So what are the really interesting things about the book? I love how it's punctuated with these chapters that you've devoted to individual legends of the club. How did you decide who was going to make the cut? Yeah, it took me through that process of kind of sourcing the interviews, you know, interviewing them yourself. How did it all come about? - Yeah, so I'm lucky, really. Well, firstly, my aim was not to just do a book that says in 1923 they did this, in 1924 they did that, and, you know, and so on. And it does do that to an extent, 'cause when you're doing the history of a club, you have to get the important points. But I wanted to base it around, you know, the legends of the club. Lucky, I knew that I know the former console Bill Bell, Derek Doyle, and he's just an absolute legend. And he's got links with the club, actually his sons of journalists in Bill Bell. And he put me in touch with a guy who deals with the former players of Athletic. So I thought, right, one day I'm going to be cheeky. I'm going to ask, can I speak to Javier Clementi and the Niko Kuchea, Julengarero, thinking like maybe one or two of them might say yes. And, you know, within about four or five hours, I had all their numbers, I couldn't believe it. I text them thinking they'd all say no, and probably by the following day they'd all agreed to speak to me within the space of a week. And so that's how I went about it first of all. So obviously I was in panic mode, getting all the questions ready for all these different interviews. So I sort of front loaded that and spoke to, like I said, Andy Niko Kuchea, Julengarero, José Bejeberia, Javier Clementi, and Dica, all these players. And it was a Raphael Carter as well. It was a real pleasure to do it, real honor to speak to them. And, you know, I think I write this in the book and I'm not just saying it. They were all like just fantastic, lovely people willing to answer every question I ask. You could just see, they're just proud of their careers, they're proud of their club and proud of the, Bill Baum and the Bascon Ching General. So that's how I went about it. And I was very lucky to have a lot of contacts from friends. I work with the Bastions Association as well and I've got a lot of friends there. So I was lucky on that front, really. - Yeah, fantastic. And he made you way out of it with your ankles intact, fly it free, live to tell us to. - Just about. He doesn't like being known as the butcher of Bill Baum. I will say that. And I sort of loathe to say it because he's helped me so much. Yeah, he prefers being known as a Corazon de Leon, the Lionheart or the Algigante de Alon Sotegi. So the Giant of Alon Sotegi where he's from, just outside of Bill Baum. So yeah, like, you know, he's known as a complete menace and just tucking defender, but he was such a lovely bloke. And he turned up at my book launch. I mean, I couldn't live many more, to be honest. - Yeah, fantastic. That is amazing. But, you know, as we all remember from high school, you can't pick your own nicknames. So that's the one that's stuck. So on these legends, then I thought something fun we could do would be to kind of build an ultimate athletic club five a side between us. Now, you know, keen listeners to these football times will know that Stephen and Gary have a bit of a previous year, the ones who've listened to the South American Files know they're very familiar with this. Tampa's often free and they'll often end up shouting at each other. So you and I, Chris, will have to be the adults in the room here and just keep them on track. But yeah, I thought between us, we kind of select a couple of athletic legends and talk about how that team would look on the field. So who's gonna kick us off here? Do you know what? I think we'll start in Spain. Gary, who would you like to see in your ultimate athletic club five a side team? Well, there's one guy we've been spoke about. Well, two guys we've spoken about already. In a ball, we'll be the goalkeeper, pretty certain about a guy, Kachia, defense. Hans Weber, Echeberg, Echeberg. I would pick as well, a midfield player who actually couldn't be more of a basket legend if he tried. We tend to end up when he's transferred from Larry Al to athletic. He broke off former relations because they're transferred. And then ahead of that, it'd be Zana. We might be talking about the details later, but, you know, it's probably athletic, athletic, greatest player. 15 seats at the club, Pachija Trova. Trova, we're in the league on six occasions, top goals for the six occasions. 251 league goals. Spanish record lasted in six decades. And up front, as a striker, it would have to be the one and our, my Pachija. That's probably more of a five a side team. I'll walk you for that any day of the week, guys. It's going to take some beating that one right, Stephen. I'm going to pass over to you. Anyone you'd like to add, and I'm really interested to see how you're going to get Andy Robertson into this. I'd always try, I'd always try. But yeah, no, I wasn't Danny in the, you know, it is, I don't know, just one of those lasting individuals. I was fascinated by the players who seem to overlap generations of football, certain tectonic plates, you know, and is stretched from like the mid 70s to the mid 80s. You know, it is massive. I love the fact that he, you know, his goal scoring output, you know, in competitive games, finished 199. You know, that's cool in itself, one goal shy in the 200 mile. So, you know, I agree with so many of the names that Gary's throwing out there, but I want Danny in there as well. Yeah, and yeah, obviously, there's so many, going to be in there. You know, you need somebody who's going to, being on the five side pitch, you just kind of like, you know, you need someone who terrorizes that patch of astroturf and you know, so, so the, the flow players can go out there and do the part. But yeah, it has to be able to bar and go without shadow or doubt as well, an extra breia. You know, so yeah, I mean, Gary, Gary's larger to pit my team there, but I'd have Danny in there as well. Yeah, we're looking good so far with that one. If I could make a case for a couple others. So, from the modern times, Aretes Adores, the man who seemed to play forever or a massive renaissance in his career, returning to Club Athletic. I'd also make a great case for a player I would associate originally with Athletic Madrid. So, Raoul Garcia, criminally, only capped twice for Spain, although I guess he did play in a real golden era, where, you know, competition was so strong in those forward roles. Really etched a reputation for himself as a supersub, a scorer of so many kind of clutch goals in the, in these moments where he was, where he was really needed. Great in the air, always great holding the ball up. And, you know, for Stephen, I was always looking at the sartorial things. I've never seen a mobask looking man. He's got that classic bascluck with the jet black hair, the way holds himself. You know, there's a, there's a favor to Chilismo in there. You can see the, you know, the influence from Diego Simeone at the Athletic Madrid, but he's, he's what I look for in a Basque player. So that's, anyway, that's as layman's. Chris, let's hand over to you for the definitive list. Oh, no, no, I'm not going to, I'm not going to argue with Gary Steven. I'll argue with you, you've reached a better Welshman, but, yeah, so I would say-- I'll just speak to you, mate, so Chris, okay, I'll speak to you, mate. So I'd agree that Irabar has to be in there, even though, you know, the current goalkeeper Unai Siman, who's, you know, just when the trophy has never been considering the last goals in La Liga, he's super, but obviously Irabar is the ultimate icon. Goinke Che has to be in defense. My case would be to swap Ed Sheberia for Julen Guerrero, just for the play, and, you know, and he's incredibly good. Look, it was, and they let's be honest. And then, Adoriz, you mentioned Reese. Yeah, he's, he is an icon, you know, he's a, probably the modern-day icon along with Inyaki Williams. And then I like to chug Kerpel and there's a young player called Unai Gomez. They call him Rocky. He's only, I think he's only 21, 20, and he's a superb player. When I've been to watch Athletic Live, he just really stands out for me. So he's a player I'd like to have and just a bit of a change rather than just looking at the past, look for the future. Unai Gomez is one to watch. Yeah, he's a superb player. Kicker myself there for not picking up Williams, brothers, particularly with their, obviously, their amazing story. You're right, you know, about looking to the future. That brings me on to, to the next point, because we are often guilty as men of a certain age and on these football times always looking towards the past and Athletic Club has saw such a romantic teams, a club where it's easy to become nostalgic about. But you do focus on the future of the club as well, particularly focusing a lot on, lastly, on us, the women's team and how they are kind of pioneers, if you're like in La Liga, for what they do. So what can you tell us about the future of the club, particularly with the women's game, Chris? Well, you know, I can't, I can't claim to be an expert on the women's team. Obviously, I've researched a lot for the book and I've got a chapter on it. But again, Athletic, as they were sort of at the forefront of football at the beginning of football in Spain, they were with the women's team. And lastly, on us, were formed in 2002. And they were really, they were trailblazers for women's football in the bus country, in Spain and in Europe, I suppose. They won three consecutive titles as soon as they were formed in 2003, 2004, 2005. They were again in 2007. But unfortunately, as the thing seemed to happen in Spain, the forever winning Barcelona female team has taken over as the team in Spain. I think the last trophy Athletic win was 2016. And they've never won the Coppodel Arena. So even though the men's team is associated with the Coppodel Arena, the women's team have never won the Coppodel Arena and that's their goal, that's all they're aiming for. But, you know, they get fantastic crowds at Samamez, they play at Samamez a couple of times a season. And they are on the way back up. But yeah, as always, Barcelona and many's talking. And they're the team that beat at the moment. But I spoke to a former player called Arathe Oroeta, and she was fantastic to talk to. And the pride that Bill Bowin has in their women's team is fantastic to see. And I think they're just gonna get better and better, you know, and grow and grow. - I'm sure much like the men's team as well is something that's incredibly important to the city. So looking forward to the future, Steve and I ask you to look into your crystal ball for a moment. You know, we know the, the Kantero system, the Boscony policy, that's not going anywhere. It's, you know, it's beloved by the followers of the club. It's incredibly important to the club. Where do you see the club? How, with football becoming so money orientated with, you know, things going as they are. Where do you see this club? In the near and distant future? - Well, you know, they will always fluctuate. You know, and within that, that's what makes them such an interesting, you know, entity as well. They've just won the Cup of Del Rey. You know, if we take the super copper out of the equation, which you, you have to really, you know, first major taught, you know, first major honor in 40 years. They've also, you know, just finished what fifth in the league. So, you know, that's, you know, they haven't finished higher than that in a decade. So to combine a, you know, a Cup winning campaign with the high sleeve finish and anything eight years, you know, certainly not finished higher than fifth, in a decade, there is a, you know, it's a stepping stone. It's a building block. You'd like to think that they can move forward and remain relevant. I mean, the great thing about, you know, the League has always been the, you know, yes, Barcelona remain omnipresent, Rio Madrid more. So, I'd let it come and go. Yeah, that kind of fourth team, that fourth wheel, has always been one that's been, you know, handed on, in almost in really, you know, we had the rise of Depo, we had Valencia, Benita's Valencia, you know, Sosseidag came into the equation. And you have these kind of like, you know, short-term rises and then, you know, away they fall, look at Sevilla and, you know, in the periodic successes that they've had, you know, hopefully Athletic Club can make this, you know, more than just a one-season flash. Famously, football, we often speak in three-year cycles, you know, and, you know, let's see if they can prove it in the next two seasons and continue to push the boundaries. That's a great way to describe her as being the fourth wheel. Yeah, Gary, how long do you think they can, is that a reasonable and achievable target to become the awkward fourth wheel to hang on for as long as they can? I guess, just before I answer the question, just a couple of things I just want to mention about, Chris mentioned about the women's team. How important is Las Leonas in Bilbao? Well, the broke, the European record for attendance of women's football club in, football match in 2019, 48,000 fans turned up at San Lamiss. It's a record last year, a couple of months, until Barcelona arrived there a bit later, and 60,000 fans turned at the, at San Lamiss to watch the girls play. And they had the same philosophy as the men's team, they only play basketball skills as well. So, you know, that's a massive achievement for Las Leonas. But, yeah, to go back to what you were saying, to me, you know, I've always sort of had a soft spot for an athletic club, and they're almost a third wheel, actually, rather than a fourth wheel. You know, as much as I think I'm right in saying, there's only three teams and they've been relegated from Olega, that's Barcelona, Real Madrid, and the third one is Athletic Club. Athletic have been relegated, severe, Valencia, everybody else, those are only three that haven't. So, that's something massive to be proud of for the club. And, you know, I know that's looking a bit backwards, but it's also sort of projecting forwards as well, because that the philosophy they have there, as well as it's been some good arguments of weakness, which is also a massive strength for the club as well. The unity and the inspiration that inspires in the team and the fans is something to behold. And, you know, I think the future for Athletic Club, they might not win the trophies at Real Madrid, we're in a number, but the value of each trophy they bring back to the Sun and the Mes, every time they get out, that's like a banner, and take it down the river in front of those fans, is worth so much more. So, the future for Athletic Club, I think is it can only be described as phenomenal as the past has been. - Yeah, to quote a famous or to paraphrase, rather a phone company, the futures bright, the futures, Rachie Blanco. - Great. (laughs) - And, yeah, great to have you, Chris, as well to write this book as they've kind of come back into into relevance and really grabbed hold of La Liga within that famous copper del Rey trophy. So, you must be an absolute like did when they lifted up. - Well, there's two ways to look at this. You can be absolutely delighted or absolutely horrified that I've had to spend the last month and a half writing an updated chapter for the book. So, yeah, I was delighted to read in a way, but obviously it meant extra work for me. But, yeah, it was great timing. I'm hoping I'm a good omen, so, yeah. But yeah, so I've written an updated chapter because literally I released the book in March, and they hadn't won the trophy for 40 years, and then a month later, they win the cup of del Rey, so it's a bit of Soslo. But, yeah, I've enjoyed writing the updated chapter. Obviously, I went over for La Gabara as well in April, and that was a phenomenal experience. Yeah, it's great, it is great. And I just hope, I hope the interesting asset that continues to grow because they are really a fantastic level, a fascinating club. And I think that when those clubs, you can easily have a soft spot for. And going back to the future success, I think there's a couple of more copper del Rey's in them in this team, they're a young team, but also an interesting fact is that the Europa League, which they qualified for next season, the finals at Summermez, so that could be fantastic if that happens. Be a lot of pressure, but that would be unbelievable. Or pressure on you to write the third edition then, as well Chris. Oh, I hope not. (laughing) They're keeping you in business with these trophy wins. But yeah, absolutely, I'm sure the boys will echo this. The book, Los Leones, is a fantastic read. It really is a charm to a athletic club and a great tribute to a great club. I recommend anyone picking this up. Buy a copy now or buy a new version when they keep winning these trophies, either way, but make sure you do get yourself a copy. Many thanks for joining us today on the LOB, at these football times production. For more of our content, check out our award-winning print magazine featuring some of the game's foremost writers, artists and photographers, exploring areas of the game rarely covered in high-end print. For now, we look forward to you joining us again soon.