These Football Times
The Challenges facing Irish football
Welcome to The Law by These Football Times, the home of long-form storytelling online. Let us loop you through the ages of football, so sit back, learn and enjoy the podcast. Hi everyone, welcome to The Law Podcast from These Football Times. My name is Omar Saleem, I'm the editor of The Site and I'm your host today. This is an Irish football special, talking about some of the challenges in the domestic game in Ireland and in Northern Ireland. So we recruited three excellent experts from Ireland and from Northern Ireland. So first up we've got Colin Miller, who's been featured in Northern Ireland Football Daily, writes for The Site Regularly, also featured in Demira and Belfast Live. Hi Colin, how you doing? Hi Omar, I'm not too bad, thanks so much for having me on. Um, Connor, Connor Callie, who is a writer for These Football Times as well. It also featured on New Maxit, it's got weekly column there, featured on 442 and we'll be doing actually some of the Ireland previews for 442 ahead of the Euros. Connor's also part of the final third podcast, which if you guys haven't listened to is one of the best out there, it's fantastic. Connor and some of his mates just talking about all different areas of the game. Yeah, do check it out. Hey Dean, Connor, good. Yeah, good. Thanks for having me on. Oh, and finally, I said it before, the king of these football times, Matt Gault, he's written for The Site for a long, long time now, one of the best writers out there without question featured on the Guardian, 442 World Soccer, and his editor of Square Eyed TV. So hey Dean Matt. Hey Omar, how you doing? Yeah, good, thanks, great. All right, we'll jump in straight away. Obviously, we wanted to discuss the challenges facing Irish football. I think they're numerous and they're quite vast. So in an hour's podcast, we'll probably only scratch the surface, but let's try and look at the key issues. We'll talk about them, some of the key figures in the game, League of Ireland, Player Development, and then we'll maybe look ahead to the Euros with the Ireland National Team and Northern Ireland. So let me start with you, Colin. I wanted to find out why, I've been asked this question a lot before, we actually featured an article on it on these football times, looking at the decline in the players at the top end of the Premier League, Irish players at the top end of the Premier League. Obviously, if you go back to the Arsenal in the 80s, they had so many players from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Liverpool too, when they won the league's Manchester United with Roy Keene, Denis Irwin, outstanding players. Colin, what do you think that there has been a decline in the number of these players at the top end of the Premier League? Well, I mean, you mentioned there, sort of the late 80s, early 90s, and I've been the sort of continuing of a tradition for the top clubs in England, Scotland, they have a lot of Irish players from both sides to the border, coming through their new systems, getting into their first team squads, and really becoming the common legend in those clubs. In the 20, 30 years ago, there certainly won the volume of foreign imports, but there would be these days. It wasn't the same amount of money available to the club, sometimes going out and splashing it on a foreign player from my side to the UK at Ireland. So there was a lot more opportunity, first of all, that's a very logical way to look at it in terms of, you know, it was a lot more convenient for the cars to be bringing those players through, you know, they were probably relatively cheap in terms of playing the ball and getting contracts sorted, and also sorting them out with set went into the club, you know, it's just sort of a culture tradition that's pretty much the same as they would have been drawn up and at home. So I think in terms of that, that was a lot easier for those players to sort of come through, and these days you do, you obviously still have the players being exploited at each of the levels and being signed by the academies, but what's happening now is that you have an 18, 19-year-olds released on mass, a sin of seriously under 21 teams, and the clubs are starting to think that these players don't quite have the quality that we want, that we need, and yet we can sort of, you know, we can undercut that by going abroad, by, you know, by, you know, scoring around the world, cross Europe, and finding players who would either, you know, we are reasonably good value or otherwise, but they would say that for our club and for getting into our first team, for improving our chances, they would obviously be the preference. So I think that's the main practical reason behind it, which obviously in itself doesn't point to any sort of lack of quality, or any decline as such, in terms of action or inertia followers, just looking at a sort of cool light of day, and again that's something that looks at the continuum to trend, that, you know, the additional reason why that will stop, the only reason that we use the players would no longer want to come over and play for these top clubs in England and Scotland, if they were to be offered more money at home, but at the time being, it doesn't, there's no signs of that slow and down, even compared to a few years ago, you know, my suggestion, I would have had four or five regular Irish and Irish players in the first team scored, which is not of course no longer with key, it's obviously panning the cards, it'll avoid for how much longer nobody really knows, but maybe if he hadn't been five or ten years previous to this, he might have maybe had a better chance of Neil in the long-term future at the club as Johnny Evans, as Johnny Evans did, but again, you're talking, I mean, how do you make my own Johnny Evans as two examples or at Stanford? I think you know what I should have borrowed in terms of the national team that will highly important, there will be two of the first teams on the team these days, and you know, that's the sort of, the problem we have then is a lot of them, a lot of the first team regulation on the national teams are not, are not regulated at their clubs, and turning from an all-in perspective, you look at Kai Lafferty, who led the company in, and really, he scored seven goals at the time they were in for high schools, and one of them would not have qualified, yet he played a total of 60 minutes at the club football between August and March, with the North City, before he had known Neil Birmingham, and he's not even a first team there either. So that's, I think, when you start to look at it a little bit deeper, and you do seem well, maybe there is a bit of a lack of quality, or a bit of a lack of almost identity, in terms of getting, getting those players across and playing at a good level over in England or over in Scotland, and you can kind of see that, you know, he's just sort of alluded to later on, there's nobody at Arsenal, there's nobody at Liverpool or Chelsea, you know, all these clubs have gone for the more kind of new signings, and from abroad, and maybe it's just a case, you know, there might be a slight, a slight prejudice, amongst clubs and amongst clubs, you know, you know, when you're in Irish, you can sort of, you can sort of reflect that with Scottish and Welsh footballers, too, maybe they're just not, not off to the standard that you're looking for, and so I think there is definitely a quality issue there, if you look at the numbers, the decline has been pretty drastic, really. Connor, I'd love to get the Irish perspective, people like James Coleman and Shane Long who came over for very little money, they came over because they represented really low risk signings at the time, and they've done a great job since they came over, but do you think that in Ireland at the moment that there is a whole load of James Coleman's waiting to be found, or is it just that they were one-offs and that they're the quality to the standard examples? Yeah, it's really difficult to say because, I mean, James Coleman was essentially found by accident, because he played Gaelic football until he was 20 or 21, and he played his, would have signed the league team on the side, that was his second pass, it wasn't the first sport he wanted to play, so he played for his son, the league team, against Slugger Robers when he was, I think, 19 or 20, I think maybe he was younger, he could have been 18 or 19, and Slugger, he was the best player on the pitch, and Slugger Robers signed them up from that, and within like a year you ended up with everything. So his professional career essentially happened by accident, but he wasn't discovered by, he wasn't brought through any sort of cohesive scouting or cohesive coaching system, he was, he was, he was just, he was an aberration, like, so the problem is, like, I think the way, particularly in Dublin, anyway, the way football is sort of, the way football is set up is that there's development leagues, like there's the DDSL, which has five of the biggest clubs in Dublin, like Cherry Orchard, Home, Fire, et cetera, and those clubs have no link or relation to League of Artisans, so what they're trying to do is, and they do very well as they develop players, and they English clubs then come in and take players from the DDSL teams and bring them across, but what would be better for their development is if there was some sort of link to League of Artisans, and maybe instead of going up to England at 15 and 16, they stay in Ireland until then 18 or 19, finish off school, perhaps start a college degree or whatever, play League of Artisans football when they're 18 or 19, and then eventually they might get, the more BSS plays where the English clubs have a link with from Irish teams, but for the most part, it's happened for centuries really, for decades really, is that the likes of Man United and Liverpool and Arsenal, and other teams have links to Irish clubs, like the development clubs, so they basically take the best pick of these players, and what's happening is a lot of the guys are going over to, like you know, either there or whoever, and they end up staying in the academy and playing reserve team football until they're 21 or 22, and because of the globalization of football right now, and the vast quantities of money that Premier League clubs have, if they have an option between signing a player for 20 million from League or La Liga or whatever, or bringing to an academy player, invariably they'll go for the big money option because because of the vast quantities of money than Premier League and how easy it is for a team to just capitulate like Aston Villa this season, clubs aren't willing to take a risk on academy players, a lot of clubs anyway, and I think that's it, it's definitely problems that these players aren't playing in the football between the ages of let's say 17 and 21, at a decent level, at a competitive level, so I think that's a large problem, but again there's also this structural issues within Irish football that hardly help the matter. I'm going to stay with you Connor on this, I read about the Dublin District School Boys League, which is the largest league of its kind in Europe, I think there's 200 clubs, 16,000 players, surely, are we saying then, if we step aside from the Premier League for a moment, what about championship clubs? Should championship clubs be going over there and saying, I tell you what, I can take a punt on one of these kids, that is is good enough, or is it that the 16,000 players aren't receiving good enough coaching it, I mean let's step aside from the Premier League, let's say that yes there's marketing value, there's you need to appease fans by bringing in a big-name player, that you know a shameless Coleman can come in at 16 when no one knows him and maybe he might do something, but what about what about championship clubs, looking at a 15, 16-year-old who's still in school and saying I tell you what he's doing well in that league, can we not bring him over, are they missing out on a trick there? I don't necessarily think, I don't necessarily think they deliberately do this, or I think there is like, there's a lot of clubs in the championship and lower leagues who are trying to bring these players across, but a lot of the time the bigger clubs get in there before them, and because the bigger clubs kind of pay the DDSL clubs more, and because it's the allure of playing for a bigger club it comes around like you normally get a situation where the player will end up going to a primary club, so I don't think it's for the lack of trying, I do think that, I do think that your recent times like a lot of players do think, they chase their dream essentially, they think that you know the allure of a Manchester United or Chelsea or an Arsenal coming in for you, like they find that very difficult to turn down, when in actual fact the best things for the development will probably be to go to a championship team or a lower league team where you'll get a lot of football, and there's more chance of you breaking into the first team, like I mean the prime example for me is Delhi Ali, who knows where Delhi Ali would be if he had a sign for Tottenham when he was 15 or younger, like would he have got his chance, perhaps he would, because muchasino likes to bring true young players, but would he have got his chance the way he did, I'm would he be where he is now if it wasn't for the kind of high upbringing he had in lower league football, so I think that's definitely an issue, and also one other issue is that I think that players just seem to think that, particularly Irish players just seem to think that the primary league is the only place he can play football, and that that's their only dream, and they don't understand that if they go abroad, that they went somewhere else in Europe where they might be a chance of the development, I'm not sure what the demand for, you know, Irish players is in Holland or other places, and all that Jack Berners, he was in the Manchester City Academy, he's on Laonaq, he's been on Laonaq camera this season and he's at a great season, I mean they are at the busy, but the general real-athome with Irish players is that they'll be hot, they'll go to English clubs and they don't see anything beyond English clubs, so I think that's also an issue, is that the development, these players aren't having like, they don't have different backgrounds in the development, it's all regimented, it's all pretty most the same, whereas they look at even a country the size of Croatia who have a population of three men, which is like a million less than the Republic of Ireland, they look at the players they have, look at the players they've produced, and that's, they've players like, they've three midfielders at the two biggest clubs in the world, and they have an abundance of what are telling the players, and that's because these players are going out to different leagues and different countries and experience in different cultures and different forepiling environments, and I think that definitely doesn't help with what Irish footballers have, these players for the most part just seem to think that the Premier League is the only option. Matt, there's Brendan Rodgers said not long ago, a couple of years ago that one of the big issues that Irish players are facing in Northern Ireland and in Ireland is that they're starting their apprenticeship at 16, and we all know that the guys coming through the academy systems here in the UK, now on this count at seven or eight, they were in academies at eight and being coached, you know, two or three times a week by highly qualified coaches who have got experience of working with players of that age in a structured environment, they well looked after, do you think then that that's one of the issues in Ireland, and if so, is that because there's a lack of finance or a lack of structure or a bit of both, what can we do in Ireland to resolve that? I think there's definitely a lack of resources, like certainly here in Northern Ireland, for like grassroots coaching, I think you make a good point that they do seem to start later, I mean if you look at the League of Ireland at the moment, Paul Hadley's probably the best player by quite a distance, he's only starting to get recognised now, maybe abroad, at least 27, 28, so it's, you know, it's almost like it's over for him before it's got started, you know, he's not 20, 21, he's 27, 28, and that's that's too late for, you know, even like a League 1 League 2 club to sort of come up, there's definitely a lack of resources over here in Northern Ireland, I think that as well, there's just a lack of confidence and a lack of quality, really, I mean if you go to Northern Irish club games, weekend, week out like I do, it is, you're seeing the ball in the early, you're not seeing a great deal of quality, you're not seeing teams that are getting the ball down and passing it around, and that comes back to how players have been coached since they were in their teenage years, I'm not saying certain coaches in Northern Ireland don't have that philosophy, I mean Tommy Breslin with Clippenville, they won the League 2 years in a row, they were really attractive side, won all the plotters that they really deserved, but it's just a real lack of quality and it comes back to Grassridge coaching. Yeah for sure, Colin, anything on that, I mean obviously you're in Northern Ireland, is there anything you want to add on that? Yeah, well I mean I've got a lot of local game here, and I've been watching it really for nearly 20 years now, and I'm one of what I would say, I said I think over the past three or four years, whilst I do agree for a lot of what Mark would say, and I've been certainly either got a lot of problems and they would stand from Grassridge coaching from a very young age, there's no doubt about that, but I think, I think, to turn in the local level that the Kiwi Game in past three years has improved, I think in terms of the coaching, especially in terms of fair development, it is getting better, I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm not saying that it's been done in the exact right way, but I think it has improved, I think that a lot of the football, especially by teams, even at the bottom end of the division, a lot more of it is being played with more emphasis on passing and movement, and you can see that translated down into the national team as well, and I think under Norie Sanchez, under Nigel Worvington, a lot of Michael Williams' predecessors, the football wouldn't have been pretty to watch, it was rather won by mention all the times, you know, it was sort of, you kind of just sit back and hope for the best almost, and you know, a lot of it would be a long ball game, and to be honest, it was brutal to watch, and I think, and Connor might agree with the Republic, or rather like a lot of times too. Yeah, just a little bit. I don't think we'll have any arguments there, and again, it's sort of the problems I've heard on both sides really, but I think under Michael made it since he came in, and in the 2012, even when it resolved to point the best, I mean, I'm saying not the best, I mean, you look at them and we're absolutely bloody terrible. I couldn't have any worse at that stage. I think, I think everybody had thought like, we'd reach a new low here, things aren't going about, and they're just doomed for the next year's, they continue these failures, but actually, and I, and I did say this at the time, was it despite some of the results, and the actual, the quality of football, the emphasis on what was going on, had certainly changed. It was a lot more, it was a lot more progressive, it was more fluid-styled today, and even though that not wish it wasn't the results, sometimes it did, I mean, the beat Russia, and the Drew and Portugal, the Drew and Israel, some of them, they took points off every single team in that group. They were a plan better in some games, it was just the case, it was taken time to implement these changes, to kind of make it like, you know, you can switch between formations, depending on the needs, in the requirements of that game, you know, certain players, in terms of their press, in terms of their shape, instruction, their movement of the ball, it was a hundred times what it had been previously, and that then, they began to show in this most recent qualifying campaign for the Euros, and now I know people will say it wasn't, it wasn't the hardest of groups, but in a way, that development, because had that been the case before, you know, in a moment, would have struggled to win any of those matches against any of those teams. So, I think, I think we need to take that off and get a point under, like, even the switching between formations, Michael Neil, certainly obviously, he's gone through the entire campaign, but for reasonably basic, 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1, and then since Chris Brump's injury, you switched it to a 3-5-2 in some games, he changed it, and the players seemed to know what they're doing, the team was very well drilled, they've only considered one goal in the last year team matches in the first half, and I think that's a pretty remarkable record, actually, considering the players that they do have available, obviously, a very, you know, powerful colleague Johnny Evans, Patty McNair Craig, calf court, or top-level players in England, but it put a very game beyond that, you know, you're going to try to sleep with time, from Burnley, from Doncaster, you need to be a player to be playing in the low leagues, and getting low meals out of clubs, even though they're not, so you are, you know, in terms of the depth, it's not quite there, but I think what's the case is, it has been over the past few years, as you know, it's had a lot of players going over to England's economies at a very young age, and then getting a lease at quite a young age, and it doesn't, that there's been no sign of indication that that actually helps out development in terms of, in terms of growing India player, and learning what they should be learning, and I think there's quite a lot of thought now, you know, you go back to the past, and even the Northern Ireland team at the mid-90s, and you had, like, the Steve Loomas, Neil Lennon, Michael, and all those players played for Jim McJilton, all those players started their careers in the Irish League, and what would have happened was that they started off maybe the 17, 18-year-old, and were in the team for two or three years, you know, and that, and they actually get quite a rough and tumbling, the pace of it is relatively intense, and you're going to, you know, you're going to learn quite a few things about the game, maybe, maybe not so much in terms of improving your skill or ability as you would of way in England, but I think certainly in terms of the pace of the game, and just learning the tricks of the trade, so to speak, and that helped Neil Lennon with the grinaven, Loomas was a Korean who used to karek, at this point of stillry, so they started off their careers there, and then they got their moves from there, but by the time they moved on to the Premier League clubs, they had already experienced 15 football for years, they knew what it was about, and really the transition wasn't too much at all, whereas you look more at youth football in England, and whilst, you know, quite a lot of the games just feel of skill and ability, you know, there's a massive, massive step up in terms of the pace and intensity, and importance of youth team games compared to the first team, and you see that, we will find Chelsea have dominated youth team football in England for years, and how many of their players have established themselves, not only at Chelsea, but even even at Premier League level, there's really not been very many, and I think that's, that's an issue that needs to be addressed as well, but I think, in terms of knowing that, I think in cases it's pretty similar in the Republic, as I did a lot of these sort of coaching schemes that have been started up, and certainly in Northern Ireland, there's Club N.I, who, who are sort of, their team that have set up taking young teenage players, and from there they then develop them, and then the clubs, they actually, clubs would take them from now, and there's been quite a few success to waste from that, and I know Matt mentioned Paul, he'd be a Crusaders, who probably the leads, I'd sat on them player, and whilst he is getting more than years, on the other side of the wing is Gavin White, who's 19, and he, he, he moved into the Crusaders first team squad last season, and he was a revelation, he had trials, he had trials in England, I was sounding away at Everton, Everton I think was a film too, I think, I think both Glasgow clubs were looking at them too, and that was just a case of, you know, you've, you've come, you've come through this system, you've been given first teams football at a very young age, and from the youth shown that you can call it, maybe not at the same level, but of course not, but, but you've shown that you have the ability to, to say, to say first team football and to develop from there, and I think that's important, and you know, I think Impan's both known on them, and the Republican, the Republican, Kevin Doyle, and she and Long, she and his Coleman, they all started their careers, you know, at the League of Island, you know, and, and it was from the day in, they were recognized, rather than 13 or 14 year old kids being picked up, playing, playing youth teams football over here, you know, so, so I think, I think that's a big thing, and even Deli Ali was mentioned earlier, back then, Colin mentioned him, and, and you know, the thing, when he lined the makeup up, and so many of those players have now come through, you know, the lower league structures, and you know, obviously they're like the Jamie Bardi as well, you know, these media work rises, but they, they've played football for years, and they're just really creative working themselves up, and if you have, if you have the talent on the ability, you will, you will be spotted, and you will take your break, and it was even, it was even the same, a couple, a couple of examples, and one man, Begar McCauley, who played for three Irish league clubs before being picked up by Lincoln, and then from there, you know, he's obviously moved on to Leicester, and then West Brom, so we, you do have these success stories, it's just, it's just really a case, obviously, the clubs need to be scouting over here, and firstly, isn't recognizing that, like, you know, there's very, in terms of actually going to go around players, it's very, very cheap, and you'd often probably, you know, five figure sums, that would be, it would almost be all for six figure sums to be labeled in Irish league players, even, you know, the very top bracket, so it's, it's very cheap in terms of, in terms of the market, it's just a case of getting your scoring right, and identifying the talent that is there. Connor, I had a chat with John Townsend, who writes for the site, and when he graduated from, from university out in the States, he was offered the chance of going to the MLS draft, he would have, would have joined an MLS club on a, on a rookie contract, which is, you know, $25,000 a year, which is a lot less than what he would have made, just going into the city or something, and actually putting his degree to use, and the average annual salary for a premier division player is, is 16,000 euros, so are we seeing players who are getting to the age of, of sort of 16, 17, saying, yeah, I don't know if I'm going to make it, you know, talented players saying, I don't, I don't know if I'm going to make it, I don't, I don't know if I want to risk it, or coming out of university and saying, I think I'm just going to go and get a job, that pays me more. Is, is that a problem? Yeah, that's definitely an issue. There's also, between issue of the GA and rugby, because in the last like 15 years, pretty much since rugby went, rugby union went professional, the, the grout of the sport has been massive in Ireland, and you now have four provinces who are professional outfits, they compete at the top level of their sport, the Irish team, you know, the Irish team is competing in the top level of sport, and it's now very glamorous for guys to, to go and pursue that, like, I mean, the academy system in rugby over here is, is really, really good, particularly in, particularly in Lancaster anyway, and I got a lot of guys, a lot of guys will play maybe three or four different sports, and when they get to 15 or 16, it's probably time to, it's, it's when most guys try to focus on one rather than keep on playing all of them, and a lot of time, because of particularly outside of, pretty outside of Dublin, and then like in rural Ireland, the GA is such a massive community thing that a lot of players will invariably stick with the GA because it's such a parochial thing, and they might give up like, they might give up playing football, and I think there's so many players being lost over the years to order sports, and just because like it's harder, they have more of a passion for their sport, or it's just easier to, to make it in order sports, I mean, you have to think about it, like it's, to, to make it as an elite footballer is, it's a very, very rare thing, and it's, it's the percentage of a compared to other sports is, is more nuked, so like, there is a definitely a risk factor involved, but again, like a lot of, there's a lot of Irish players who go to, go to England when they're 15 and 16 as well, and they don't make it, and they end up back here, or they'll play League of Ireland football, or they'll just give up, but you can't completely, it's been counting the stories of it over the years, and like I have a, I have a couple of mates, like, who went abroad, they went to, they went to England when they were, what, 16 or 17, won the lads in particular, ended up like, he was in the South Academy, I think he ended up playing, a little bit for Aberdeen, and he's now back here, and like he, basically, he, he played a little bit of the League of Ireland football, but he's just stopped playing now, because he's, why he's in his mid 20s, and he just decided it was time to get, time to get a proper job, and it's sad, because when he was like 15 or 16, everyone just thought this guy was going to be, this guy was kind of the professional footballer that he's going to be our mate, who's playing in the Irish team, like, but, you know, I just said it didn't work out for him, and his countless stories like that, I think it's just a, it is less of a risk, either playing in other sports, or as you were saying, gone, and just caught straightening, and on a college degree, and then, you know, getting an elderly job from her. Obviously, with finance being, being one of the issues, Matt, is it a case that, you know, there aren't sponsors coming into the League of Ireland, so as a result, you know, you're never going to pay the same wages, which is fine, certainly not sponsors on the, on the same level as England, you can't even compare the two. Are we saying that if we can improve the base quality of the League itself, the players coming through the system, as as Colin said, that the standard has actually risen in, in the last few years, if we can improve the, the base quality of the, of the leagues, will that help bring in sponsors to then reinvest that money into the academy and produce players of a better standard? And ultimately, when you're selling players on for, for money, which, you know, all these players are going to want to move on to another level eventually, is that the way to keep the league sustainable, Matt? Yeah, I think it is. I think if, if the quality is there, then naturally investment will come in, there'll be more money. You can sell players on for, for higher prices, and obviously, it benefits the league as a whole. I just think that it all comes down to quality and coaching. It needs to start from a very early age, as you've already said. And, you know, players in Northern Ireland don't play for a lot of money. They're really not getting a lot of wages. You know, they're training a couple of nights a week. They're playing because they love to play football. And I think, you know, in a way that, that, that does sort of make the league in Northern Ireland quite a fashionable in a way, because they are playing because they love football. They're not playing for a great deal of money, even though, ultimately, that is their dream that they want to, you know, they want to play for Manchester United or Manchester City or Arsenal or whatever, and earn, you know, the sort of wages that we're going to be getting. But it all comes down to improving the best quality, as you said, and naturally investment and more money will come in there, because, really, the resources, certainly in Northern Ireland at the moment, I mean, I know Colin said that the things have been improving in recent years, but it's still not anywhere near the standard of England. So, yeah, I agree with that. Sorry, if I were to just intersect there for a second, the problem in the Republic of Ireland, anyway, is that like, the league itself was controlled by the clubs until about 10 years ago. And then the FAO, like the Football Association of Ireland, bought it out and took it over. But it's basically been like the ugly child in the corner that I don't care about. The black sheep of the family, they just, like, there is very little investment in the league. And like, there's such a, if you go to League of Ireland games, the supporters of every club, there's such a vitriolic hatred of the FAO for the way they've treated the league. And the problem is, like, it's just, like, John Delaney, the CEO of the FAO, he talks about how the state of the organization is in real health and the development plan is in place and stuff like that. Well, like, the league itself, the winner of the League of Ireland, just in terms of pricing, when he gets 200, I think it's 200 or 250 grand, John Delaney, the CEO of the FAO, he gets paid 350 grand a year. So he loses 100,000 more than the first place team in the league. It's just mind-boggling. This guy, he hasn't given an interview with, he hasn't given a press conference to the Irish media in four years. The only interviews he's done is with selected media partners. He is one of the biggest, if not the biggest problem, we are so well. I hate to make it as simplistic as that, but he really is, he really is a crook, and the guy... Are you actually saying that a government body lacks transparency? I'm not the leader, yeah, I'm that the leader in question has a bit of a dictator complex, like, right, this is such a, this is the lack of self-awareness that John Delaney has, he did an interview on Irish radio last year in which, in which he slammed Seth Bladder and then took a mic out of Seth Bladder because they made, what was that FIFA movie, you know it in passions, is that the movie? Yeah, with Tim Roth? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So John Delaney was taking the piss out of Seth Bladder for authorizing FIFA movie, and I liked the presenter, the show was like, "Oh, that's incredible eagle, John, isn't it? That's incredible eagle." When it turns out, like, six months previous, the Irish Independent Tour is run by Dennis O'Brien, who pays for half of the Irish Managers' salary, made a documentary about John Delaney, we're painting him in just wonderful light, and they didn't get a football journalist or a sports reporter to interview John Delaney, they got their entertainment expert to interview John Delaney, and I'll try them fine, and then, and send it on these later, it's just the most delusional piece of footage I've ever seen, like, it's, it's basically like trying for the will of Part 2. Conner, is this a guy who took a dodgy five million pound, five million euro payment from FIFA after that, or wreaking? Yeah, in Britain, he disclosed this information in that same interview, like, he accidentally let it slip, but yeah, the FBI had received, like, in the entertainment of five million euros, he's quiet about to play off the feet of France in 2009. What an idiot. Sorry about that tangent last, but yeah. That, you know, funnily enough, I was actually going to mention him, and I was going to ask you how big a problem he is, because everyone I seem to speak to about the Irish game says, this guy's, this guy's a serious problem. Now, I mean, everyone seems to have a laugh about him, and says a bit of a clown is a bit of an idiot, but actually, he genuinely is, is an obstacle as well. Yeah, it's a huge obstacle. The problem is he's built up a structure of power around the man, which he is essentially, he's essentially unremovable, because they am, like, the board, the way the FBI board, now this is just from what I've read, like, the way the FAA board is, is structured is that they, I think if you reach the age of 65, you are, I think you have to retire your place on the board and give it up to a new member. It's just to keep, originally it was meant to keep the board fresh and have new ideas and stuff, but John Delaney raised the age of the board member, or the board member's retirement to, I think, it's 70, so there's about four or five guys currently on the board who are pushing 65, so they're all loyal supporters of John Delaney, so he's raised it, so the next time an election comes around, he's got these guys on the side, so yeah, it's just, like, he's, it's, it's a very, very modern thing, I think it's a very, it's a bit like, well, my gosh, he's done at Newcastle, he's just like, he's pushed away any kind of transparency, he's pushed away any idea of keeping reporters involved and stuff, and most of the guys, like, I, I, I won't mention names, but I've, like, talked to about, I've talked to a few, like, over the biggest Irish proposal I'm gonna sit at this, um, in private, and they, they are, like, think he's just a crook, so, I won't mention names, you can, uh, you can have, you can have a guest, like, who are the various people there, but they all think he's a crook, anyway. Um, I think we could talk about, um, some of that stuff, and certainly the, the league stuff, player development stuff, we'll, we'll try and arrange another podcast, um, maybe take some people's questions and tackle it specifically, I, I wanted to talk about, um, about the national teams ahead of the Euros, uh, I'll follow this one at, at Colin and Matt, whoever wants to take it first at, Northern Ireland in a tricky group, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, do you think they can get out of it? Yes, I, I actually do, um, and this might, like, exchange the fellowship in a month time, but that's, I do. I, I am optimistic, um, and the reason being, you, okay, it is a tough group, you've got your Germany, you see a German Poland, Ukraine, there's no, there's no weak team there, but to remember, I'm gonna be a weak human, we've known that under the four, with the four seats, um, you're always gonna get a big hitter that happens to be Germany, who will almost certainly go through with these, so then you're gonna pull in the Ukraine, and to burn in mind, there will probably be three teams, progresses from the group, so that does, that actually opens, opens things up at quite a lot, and Poland, Ukraine, they're, first of all, that's like a Poland, they obviously have Robert Lewandowski, um, he's, he's not really like standing, he's trying to get anything, anybody can argue about that, um, and, and so a couple of other group games obviously, they were involved in the group with the Republic of Ireland and Scotland, and qualifying, and whilst, yes, they did have, they did have a few good results, there's, there wasn't anything actually though, that, you know, if you can, if you can keep a hold on Lewandowski, and I know that's a big if, you know, there's maybe not, there's not too much there to worry about, I didn't think of it, and I had the same goals, the same goals with Ukraine, I mean, I don't think they're bad teams per se, but if you're looking at them against Northern Ireland in one of matches, I don't, I don't really see there's any reason why Northern Ireland can't sneak one victory, and, and actually, the recent record against Poland is quite good, now I haven't played them in a few years, but they have certainly been a couple of victory over the past few years, and they've beat them three to one to park, um, the last one game they play, and they drew one, one that in Poland, so there's a bit of history between the teams, and Northern Ireland is a record, but they've actually beaten Poland more times, and they've lost them, and again, a few Korean, you know, there's maybe not quite the start of still has been with them in recent years, obviously there's no chef's shank, go any more, can't play like it's a fantastic player, um, and you're on like goes well, but, I mean, I don't, I don't think there's too much to fear, I mean, because it year after year, there's always gonna be good teams, you know, you're not going to have an easy ride, especially, especially if you're a fourth seed, so I'm like, I actually, I think they can, did I get away with that group with a win in it, with a one win in one draw, um, which would be enough to see them through, other in second or third place, and, and realistically, that would be a massive, massive, massive success story, but I don't, I don't think it's really unrealistic, I think we do have a chance, and Northern Ireland traditionally have been a team that have played well in the big occasion, and, you know, they, they, they can really, they're games, well, you don't really see it out with the players, um, and that's, especially, what's been the problems that struggle with the so-called lesser teams, so I actually think that, that, what, what history would show, and, and the actual teams that have no, I mean, they don't even tend matches, and I'm very, very good at a lot of form, I don't, I don't see why there's any reason why they can't, I don't think anybody would be able to surprise if they don't, but an optimistic, but it's not unrealistic for you, so they do finish second or third. Matt, you, you wrote about Michael O'Neill, um, was on the Guardian, great, great piece, um, talks to me a bit about O'Neill, um, and where he will succeed, I felt, in this tournament, and, and who do you think the key men will be? Um, I think, in terms of O'Neill, like, I just think Northern Ireland, oh, O'Neill, a massive debt. Like, this guy has come in, uh, 2012, uh, as Colin said, results weren't going well from, at the start, it sort of looked like it was going to go in the, a similar direction, uh, you know, maybe Nigel Worthingdon, or, or Laurie Sanchez, and just be a same old, Northern Ireland kind of story, you know, um, but it has an happen like that. I think Michael O'Neill is a great man-manager. I think if you look at the, the key man in the, in the qualifying campaign was Kyle Lafferty, uh, well, his transformation was down to Michael O'Neill, uh, he was sent off, and again, against Portugal, Michael O'Neill sat him down, laid out some harsh truths, said, simply, you know, you're not, you can't nail down a place at whatever club you're at, you, you're not going to nail down a place in the national team, if you keep playing like that, if you lack discipline, if you lack dedication, uh, and there is a sort of perception of Kyle Lafferty, as there's a hard work inside him, and when he brings that side out, he can be a great footballer, he can score a lot of goals. There's also the other half that he's a bit of a clown, he's a bit of a messer, and he lacks a work ethic, uh, but under Mike O'Neill, he's, he's really showing the better side of him, and that's reflected in his performances. I mean, seven goals in the qualifying campaign, he was absolutely instrumental, uh, in getting Northern Ireland to the Euros. I think, uh, what Michael O'Neill has done is, he's, he's actually instilled a togetherness in the Northern Ireland side, and he's, he's implemented, uh, a tactical flexibility, they can play with three at the back, they can play, play with four, um, you know, they've proven they can play with Wayne Backs. I think that that's crucial, uh, when you're gonna come into the Euros and you're gonna be playing against three very different sides, uh, there's, it's not one dimensional, it's Northern Ireland anymore, they, they actually have options, they have quality, they have players who are not only have a self-belief, they have a belief in what O'Neill has been telling them, and I think that's very important, and as Kyle said, they're unbeaten in 10 matches, defensive record is absolutely outstanding, uh, and yeah, they, they don't have a fear, they're fearless, they don't have, they're not actually scared to play the bigger teams anymore, they actually relish the opportunity, uh, to show their quality, and I, I just think that's magnificent. Colin, how do you think they'll set up? Well, as I said, it's not Matt's sort of said there as well, we know this sort of switch between four, four, three, five, two, I think, I think Michael O'Neill is sort of, you know, trying to think three, five, two, it's hard, we're probably gonna have to go with quite a lot of games, uh, during the tournament, obviously you've got Macaulay Evans, calf court, eyes three, center half, and then the type of two wingwax, and I think that that's pretty much just to make sure that you're completely, you're, you're, you're shaped completely solid, you know, you've consolidated the other things, and they offer some sort of a goal threat as well, I think there will be a goal threat there, I mean, that, that, that's probably the way, but I don't think it's, I mentioned earlier about the defensive record, I don't, I don't think anybody's, anybody's, you know, gonna, gonna give them a, a wall open, so to speak, you know, I think, I think they're, they're pretty much got that, got sort of the structure, right? And it's much that, like, the right confidence, you know, what, what's more than that, and got the lose here, absolutely, absolutely nothin', you know, nobody has any sort of expectations for them, they get, it's all three matches, nobody will be surprised, they have everything to gain, and, and sort of the format of the tournament is very much designed to give, to give these sorts of teams a chance to, you know, to progress to the next stage, and I think, so I think if you look at it that way, they're certainly going to be positive, I think three factors, it's how they want to shape up, but again, Steve Davis, the captain, and the understanding player, he's absolutely crucial, and his fitness, and his obviously, he's got his form of the minute, and so if they can keep him fit, I think everything sort of revolves around him, and if he plays well, more than I intend to play well, he's, he's important to kind of be understated. He's, he really is, like, Stephen Davis, you can't overstate his importance, obviously he's the captain, and he's the heartbeat, I mean, I agree with what Colin's saying, when Stephen Davis has played, he's played in the Premier League, he's played for Rangers, but I think the last year, he's really played the football of his life, like, I really think he's been absolutely outstanding, even for Southampton, some of his performances, you know, even Chippin' Emily Allgold, he's never been known as, as a player, as a midfielder, he scores a lot of goals, but, you know, it's just, it's just shown in his, in his confidence that has come from, you know, he would be one of the first players down in the team shape for, for Ronald Cuman, to see the exact same for Michael O'Neil, obviously, as the captain, I just think, uh, having Stephen Davis fit, and in the middle there is absolutely crucial. Yeah, I think, I think, the thing with Davis as well, um, and it's, it's kind of a case of a ball of a Norwood on a, on a smaller scale, but then there are two technically outstanding players, and, and I think, as I said, the game, in terms of their own amounts of progression, they keep the ball so well, they're very short, and they'll exactly what they're in, and everything's through them, and I'm not just out of the day, providing both of the injuries, and set pieces as well, in terms of their delivery, and even their aerial presence, see if they have a score, it's quite the crucial third goal against, against Grace, which really capped the qualification, and that, that was from a corner as well, and Norwood, you know, his set pieces, it's very, that both, both those players are not, aren't going to overplay from Redding in the championship, but I actually think he's being outstanding for Ronald and Adam, and then, technically, there is a, there's no questions regarding them, so I think if everything goes through them, they've got them all fit, and that, that sort of alloys transition between defense and attack, and that's going to be absolutely crucial because pretty much every game is going to have to be played on the counter attack, so if they can get it, might Norwood and Adam do you have a chance? How big a, how big a miss is Chris Grant, can he be replaced? I, I think he can, I think Chris wants to be a, an outstanding player, and I actually don't think he gets, it gets all love in, in the media, and I think he's, he's pretty underrated actually, but that, that's more his club form for West Brom, who's been with Sandin for four years, but for Ronald and Adam, he's never, there's always been doubts about Chris Grant and his commitment to Norwood and the, I, I actually think quite a lot of those doubts are harsh, to be honest, but I think he, he was sort of in the, in the squad, sometimes Nigel Worvington, when there was a lot of sort of question marks around a number of players, and times of commitment to the cause, and it's really wanted to be fair and for Norwood and Adam, it's been like, this, this is the lost cause, and, and the team morale wasn't great, you know, there wasn't really any sort of leadership from above, they give them an incentive to play, so there was, there was always a question marks regarding that, I actually think he was, effective in the last campaign, and he, he's played, he was played at that level, like most of the time, and it, whilst, whilst he has, he's got a, he's got a brilliant effort, you know, he's got good attitude, and he does have, he does have the ability, and there's always, I mean, he's never been one of Norwood and Adam's most important players, he's only able to afford one goal, for the national team, and that was against Sam Ronino, about eight years ago, he, I mean, so he's never really having massive impact, or the impact that people certainly thought he could have, so whether, whether or not it does, and again, that's, that's a reason, the transformation switch is really 5-2, I think, I think what we're trying to do is like, there's no, there's no replacement for him at the left, so back, really, and probably Daniel Lafferty would be the next one, and he hasn't, he hasn't been getting first in football for Burnley, so what have done is the 3-5-2, the two wingbacks, and I have Stuart Dallas, then over on the left hand side, and he's had a very, he's had a couple years, I moved the league, and I did where he's been very effective, and for what I was a Bradford, and for the national team as well, he, he's been another massive, massive success story, and he was actually one of the successful ways of the actually, because while you can go and move from Crusaders over to Brantford, which really started it all off, so he, he's, he's another, he's another one that he's, that's come through, and I'm like, all needed and really developed, alongside obviously the club form, but he's integrated them into the team, they've had an impact in terms of going to an assist as well, so it, it, it, he and that, that's, that's another kind of way in which, in which they've evolved both tactically and in person now. Um, in one word guys, um, Colin, Matt, I'll stick this to you as well, kind of, will Northern Ireland get out of the group? Colin? Yes. Matt? No. Can I? Yeah, I think so. Um, all right, great, let's jump over to the Rubik. Um, now that is a tough group. I think that, you know, Belgium are, are much, much fancied. I, I've never been too impressed by them when I watch them play. I think they're kind of like England when sort of two, between 2002 and 2006, and it really has, I didn't find each other. At the World Cup, they, they were supposed to sort of set it on fire, and it didn't really happen, it didn't really happen like that. I mean, the sort of straight victories, but I was kind of watching them going, huh? Like, is this what everybody's been, been shouting about? Like, they're half a sudden in me, isn't scored? Yeah, and, and it's a strange, I, it's actually, I sent a message to my, my friend the other day with, with their back, with their defenders and keepers, caught while I was at a terrible season. Uh, minimally, you never know what you're gonna get, he's brilliant sometimes, he's, he looks like an amateur, other times. Um, company's a big miss. I think Alda Virett and, um, the Tongan are solid players, but if you look at that back, back, glowing, you know, people like Dedrick Beata, who couldn't really cut it at, at Manchester City, they don't, yeah, they don't have fullbacks, and, and they've got, they've got the Myelin in the squads still, who's, how do you get games? Is this, is this just goal and generation of version players, they've just forgot to like, you know, create any fullbacks? So, so it's kind of, do you think that, do you think that Ireland, I think Italy will be better than people think, um, can't say solid Sweden with their Bohemavic? How do you think Ireland will do in that group? Um, this is probably blind optimism, but I think, uh, I think we'll get out of the group. Um, I think that, again, you're, the game, the real, the game of real importance is the first one against Sweden and then the start of France. Um, we played Sweden in previous qualifying campaigns and, um, yeah, like they, they are literally just the Bohemavids, and I hate, I hate diminishing a team down to one player, but they are essentially just a vehicle for the Bohemavids. So if he's on foreign, um, like, we'll probably get beaten, but if we win that game, I find this to go through, because I think, I think we'll get at least the point against Belgium, because as, as you guys were saying, like, I really have never been impressed with them. I think film arts is a, it's a weak coach. I think that they're, they won the dimensional, won pace team. They play a lot of, part of a lot of noise possession football, but it, a lot of the time it's, it's just in front of teams and you get the sense that, like, I mean, Hazard has started to come back to firm for, for Chelsea racing, and he's had a decent last couple of, uh, last couple of months for Belgium, but when he's played, but a lot of the time he, uh, flat, I said, it's Eve for Belgium, and, um, the Brian is, is always excellent for, well, I mean, it's probably the best player at the moment, but a lot of these players, we, we see a club level who are outstanding, don't tend to do it at international level. And I, I tend to believe that's to do with the coach, um, but yeah, I think individuals more than the team, really. Yeah, exactly. He doesn't seem to be able to put, put us, we almost doesn't think we have to put a stamp on the team and get them, get a system that works for the players he has. But, um, yeah, like, I, I didn't think I would get out of the group, but I did say that before the last year I was, um, that ended in despair and misery. Um, but I suppose this time we don't have a, we don't have a coach, uh, who names his team five days before a match. Sorry everyone can see it. Um, yeah, I think, yeah, I think, um, yeah, I think like the Italians, I would expect the top to grow because, uh, despite the struggles they've had recently and that the, they've lost half their midfield at the point where my keys young verate are injured. Um, I do think they're always a team at tournaments that just take it on to another level. And, uh, before verate's injury, I actually would have tipped them to get to a semi-final or final. So, uh, yeah, I think the Italians will top the group, or I think like, particularly now there's this, this best player third place team that goes through, uh, Ireland could easily be one of them. Uh, and depending on the Sweden result, the beat Sweden, they essentially just need one point in the last two games, so you're true. Uh, that, that Ireland Italy game has got all the hallmarks of an absolute grind, I reckon. It could be properly the tactical battle of, of the group. Hopefully, a gentleman's agreement beforehand. That'll do nicely. Cola, who do you think the key men are? Um, well, I think it's, it's definitely been prevalent in the last quad one campaign, and how much of a catalyst John Walters is. So, Walters hasn't played recently, he's been out injured. Um, I think he's just coming back to fitness now. So, he is essential to the way Ireland played because he's the one who leads the pressing. He's the, he's the one who, he's the one who kind of sets the tone for the rest of the team. I think in recent ones, Cheylan, has stepped up to the mark big time for Southampton, and before the Germany game even last year, which, uh, when he scored the winner and he came off the bench, he wasn't a regular for the Irish team. Like, Martin O'Neill, I don't, thought of Martin O'Neill didn't trust him, or he just didn't see away the fitness of his team, or that he just preferred to bring him on as a late impact. So, but, uh, in the last few months, bearing him on all the injuries he've had, like, Robbie Kane is 35 now, and he's just come back to, he's just come back to fitness after in the operation. Um, so, really, the only option is playing Cheylan, and he's our best striker by this. And so, I think the key players are definitely long, well, there is, I think, Wes Hill, and it's, he's, he's been, we tend to play like a four, four, one, one, um, against lesser teams on Wes Hill and plays just off the striker, but O'Neill is tempted to play a more defensive team against better opposition. So, you'll try, I would say, Wes Hill, every chance Wes Hill on one play, but he is a young Wes Hill on 33. Yeah, he looks about 20. Um, he sees maybe he's Benjamin Gutenlatz. Um, yeah, he's got something going on there. Yeah, but he, um, the thing about Wes Hill on is like, he, O'Neill, for a long time didn't trust him in big games, but he played him against Germany, and he's the only Irish player who seems to have to keep a ball. So, uh, I think, um, and I'd also, the problem is if, if Wes Hill on doesn't play, it'll be a midfield tree of Glenn Whelan, James McCarty and Jeff Hendrick. Um, the problem where Whelan, um, McCarty playing the same team is a Whelan occupies the anchor in midfield role, which is where McCarty is best. Irish teams, Irish managers particularly, um, I think Trappatoni, in his last campaign, um, many, many pundits, um, on Irish TV seem to think that James McCarty is some sort of Roy King, so I'll play his box, the box. He's far, far better as a, uh, you know, a player who, who dictates the tempo of the pace of a midfield. So the, for me, the best midfield structure for Ellen is having, James McCarty is the anchor in midfield that you have, Wes Hill on as a 10, and you have Jeff Hendrick as the boxer boxer, because Jeff Hendrick has a bit of explosiveness and, uh, a lot of energy. So I think that, um, yeah, that, that was a bit of key players. I think defensively, it'll be interesting to see Ireland and shape up because, um, John O'Shay is the captain, he's, um, he's been there a long long time, but recent games, Kieran Clark and Richard Kiel played together and they've played very, very well. So that's a, that's an interesting dilemma, but defensively, I think, are on the pretty solid, um, as long as we don't play Shay Gibbon and go. Well, so, so, so the goals will be the problem. I think they're only considered what six or seven in qualifying. So yeah, they were definitely solid, but when you come up against a team like Italy, it's, it's essentially going to be how, how you attack because they, they are going to be solid at the back and they're probably not going to have Ron as going in behind as much. You know, Ed is a pretty decent nippy player, but I think that Italy will be, be the key game. I, I genuinely, I think it will actually come up to the Italy game for me personally because that, Sweden and Belgium, you never know what you're going to get. So you don't actually know what the situation is going to be by the time you get to Italy. I think they'll need a result by the time they get there. But how, how much is the, um, the goal scoring? Where are you kind of? Yeah, definitely worries me because I think, um, like, we, we've had this issue for a long lines. I'm on Robbie Keen, Robbie Keen doesn't play or Robbie Keen doesn't score. We don't only tend to score. So, uh, like long as Chipton with some important goals recently. Um, I do think that the game plan for Ireland will be to either nick a goal from a set piece or get a goal on the break through Shane Lan's pace and then hopefully hold out. Um, I tend to, I tend to reach in that, and that will go down to the last game. But I kind of fear Sweden more than my fear of Belgium and I know that sounds absolutely ludicrous, but just because I think that Sweden and the type of team who will be happy to just give us a ball and play deep and hope that they, they can nick a goal through something brilliant for me very much. I mean, we're not very, very good when we're given the ball and we're given the, the ascendancy and again, we're much, much better when we're playing against the team who have lots and lots of possession, um, which allows us to kind of play on the break and just play defensively. Uh, so I would say, I would, yeah, I do think it'll probably go down to the timing game, but either I would have, I would have, I'd take that before the tournament anyway. Chipton, in one word again, uh, Colin, Ireland's qualifying. I, yeah, I think it's a same situation when Northern Ireland, and I actually think they will, just a point, but they will. Colin, unquestionably. Are you having a coffee? You having a morning coffee? Are you having your morning coffee? Uh, Matt? Nada. Yeah, I think they'll, I think they'll do it, yeah. It's interesting because it, it seems like, um, Ireland seems to be a little bit less clear cut than the Northern Ireland. Like, Matt, you were certain they're not going to go through. Colin, you're certain they're going to go through. Whereas Ireland, everyone seems to be, yeah, Colin, you seem to be pretty optimistic about it. Yeah. Is that because, is that because of the team to erupt against? I, well, I don't know. I think, I think the Republic of Ireland have a slightly tougher group. I, I think they're both top groups. I think they're probably just slightly, slightly the worst of the two to be in. Um, but again, uh, the problem I have with the Republic of Ireland is that they don't have too much of an identity in terms of their playing style. And they seem a bit of a mismatch of players. Um, whereas I look at Northern Ireland and there's more, there's more of a shape, you know, who's going to be in the solid 11, um, nine times out of 10. It's very, it's very clear. It's very structured with the Republic. It does seem a little bit odd almost in terms of, and actually, I'm looking at their squad now. And what actually strikes me is how you, it's how you hold quite a lot of the players are. You know, when, and you sort of mentioned they're about where it's holding them being 33, but there's, there's, there's quite a number of players that are over the age of 30. Um, even you look at their, their attackers, Robbie Kane, 35, Kevin Doyle, 32, Shane Moggs, 29, which is how he's, how do you jump from older, 33, down by 33, you know, none of these players, you know, well, they're all getting on and you almost kind of think it's, it might be for a lot of them. Their last chance are major tournaments. Um, whereas maybe you've probably found him for yours gone by, you've, you've obviously, you've had the likes of the, the share given, Richard Donne, you know, Robbie Kane up front, but you had the, you had these star players and you knew he was going to be playing most, most of the time at nine, it seems to be a bit of a, a bit of a collection, you know, of, you know, players who are a bit part in the Premier League and the championship, but it's the, whenever I've watched them as well, they're, I think in terms of quality, they, they have more quality and more resources than Northern Ireland do, but I'm not sure if it's protected and vulnerable and aware of me, I call it well, it's actually, that translates into performances and results. I think the maybe, they had a tough qualifying group, I think they got, they got slightly lucky in terms of getting to read the playoffs as, as comfortably as they did, but to see it at the same time, I think to do have, you know, it's the same, it's think it's Northern Ireland and the groups of the only, you only need one win and you might need an extra draw, there are two for insurance, but it's, it's a, it's a tough group, but as I said, I think they'll do it. It's just, it's just a case of their harder team to gauge, in my opinion, they knew they could, they could turn up and they could be very impressive, but it could turn up and, you know, be, be a total left-on, really, it's the word four years ago, and obviously again, had a tough group then, but it was just a case, you know, I, I, as far as I was concerned, they just didn't turn up, um, the quality might not be there, but again, you sort of, there's a couple of question marks that are in the actual commitment to some of the players and how much they really, they really want to be part of the team, and of, and of course more, you know, maybe in a, I think even more of a man manager than your running traffic 20 was, there's no question about that, but at the same time, there are, those question marks remain for me, for that, for that, for this particular sport about, kind of, do you agree with that? Yeah, that's, that's been an issue for, for many, many years, it's the lack of identity or lack of ideas to what way we're playing, and then, I think on Neil's try to change that in recent times, but it's a, again, it's a cultural thing, like it's been, it's been a systemic problem for so long, and it'll take a massive overall to change it, but yeah, I think like, there is, you know, there's a lot of players over the age of 30, and what strikes me about the squads is like, how many players in the, in the initial squad are, like on Neil, named 35 players, it's like 10, like 10 of these, or 12 of these aren't going to go, I don't really see the benefit of, apart from maybe keeping a few guys on the toes, but I think that, yeah, that is probably one concern, like, I mean, I think it is the last chance to learn for quite a few players, like, say, yeah, like Robbie Keen, John O'Shea, these guys will probably be our retiree after the tournaments, and yeah, there's like, there's a few other younger guys here who've been given a chance on their own, Neil, that wouldn't necessarily have got a chance on, well, we're definitely not have got a chance on their trap of Tony, so, and I don't think it's all damn big of them. Okay, guys, thanks so much for joining us. I reckon we could, we could talk about Irish football, not just the Euros, but, but player development, stuff like that for, well, for three or four hours, to be honest, we could just sit here all day and talk about it. We'll definitely arrange another podcast in the future, but, Colin Miller, Conor Kelly, and Matt Gulp, thanks so much for joining us. That was the Log Podcast. We'll be back again with another Irish football one sometime soon, hopefully. In the meantime, take care. Thanks for