These Football Times
Deconstructing American Soccer (Part I)
want to thank you for joining us today. Welcome to the law by these football times, the home of long form storytelling online. Let us loop you through the ages of football. So sit back, learn and enjoy the podcast. Welcome to the law podcast for these football times. I'm John Townsend, a regular writer for these football times. And with me today, I have Nate Abreya and Jim Hart. Nate, how are you doing? Doing very good and it is good to be back here on the lob with these football times after making my debut on that Basque spectacular last week with the great crew from all over Europe and great to be back with some yanks this week. And Jim, you've just come back from across the pond. So how are you doing and how jet lag are you right now? I'm sorry. Where am I? Who are you? Now I'm doing well. Yeah, I just got back from London. Had a great visit with our editor-in-chief, Mr. Omar Salim, who couldn't join us this morning. But yeah, we spent a week talking football, watching football, hanging out. Believe it or not, the weather in London was absolutely gorgeous until the day I left and I left him with rain. So it was great. Well, the good thing about this podcast is I do want to talk about this American-centric thing we call soccer. And we've had two great podcasts before with these football times. Jamie Carragher telling us about defending and Nate and Omar talking about Basque football and stuff that most people don't really have a lot of information about in this country. So what we're going to talk about today is actually Major League Soccer, the standard of play in American soccer holistically and going into some of the challenges that maybe impede or don't make the progress of American soccer quite as what's the best word to say. Maybe it's not as good as it could be. And so we're going to be talking about all things American and Nate, let's start with you. You're based in San Diego and can you give us a little background in your history in the game? My history in the game, born and raised in Watsonville, California which is a 90% Mexican town in Santa Cruz County and was also raised by a bunch of British expats. So I had this bizarre cultural mesh of England, Scotland, and Mexico growing up. And for a lot of people I think this is so important to start with when we talk about our American soccer backgrounds. Many of us come from these bizarre multicultural combinations and I think that's one of the great things about American soccer that should be embraced a lot more is that, you know, you don't find an English Mexican Bask combo all too much and all of those cultures were part of my upbringing with the game and the way that I've viewed the game as far as my media work over the last couple of years I've been privileged to work with World Soccer Talk Radio as the host of that program and interact with some great names and some great people and some folks, and I know we're going to get into this in great detail, John, but some folks who played in Major League Soccer in the original few years back in the late 90s, back in the early 2000s when it was a truly a fledgling league that was on the verge of folding so many different times and talking with guys who actually played in that era when I was in the stands at Spartan Stadium as a kid at the San Jose Clash and San Jose earthquakes games it's amazing hearing from guys who were there in the early days and comparing and contrasting the league then and the league now and so I definitely consider Major League Soccer as a major part of my soccer background. I attended many games in San Jose and still support the earthquakes to this very day. Very cool, and Jim, your history in the game, I know you're a resident Calcio writer for these football times. What can you surmise maybe your elevator pitch for your introduction to MLS as a winning person? Well, I'm from Colorado and when I was young I'm older than probably, I don't know how old you are, Nate, but I'm probably older than both of you put together, but when I was young, I was your typical soccer-mate in Germany guy I loved watching the crazy blonde-haired characters on TV and all that when I was a kid loved watching guys like Metadona growing up and for me, the game was this mythical thing and almost a foreign thing. It wasn't an American thing. It wasn't until I've kind of lived all over the world seen games in strange and wonderful places like Jakarta, but coming back to the U.S., I moved back here to Colorado in 2000 and it was just after, I guess, a couple of years into MLS and the rapids were playing in this enormous football, NFL football stadium and I went to a couple of matches and maybe 2000 people watching the Colorado rapids play and it had a pretty "Hey kids, let's get the, I've got the barn, let's raise the play" kind of feeling to it, which is kind of exciting in a certain way. So I've kind of watched the league grow up, although I kind of got disinterested in it because of the quality. I wasn't quite used to the lower division type quality of the football, having lived in Europe, having lived in other places. So for me it was kind of like "oh that's cute" but I'd really rather watch something else. So Nate and I grew up with the league, both literally and figuratively, and much like Nate, my first game that I've ever attended was the inaugural game, the class first I think DC United and I was a ball boy at that game and it was really interesting to see these, I used the word stars with air quotes but they were stars of the American game they featured in the 94 World Cup and they'd come home to play in some regards and seeing them on the really formative experience for me. So Nate, can you tell us about your formative experience with MLS that those early years, because I think those are great years. I think a lot of people who support the league now don't necessarily have that connection and I think it's important to talk about that and can you kind of tell us your history and what your formative experience with MLS was? Well it was at Spartan Stadium. It was at that same conference watching the likes of Eric Winalda and Misaya Lespanosa and Jeff Bycher and a few others back in that inaugural season for the San Jose Clash, John Doyle as a part of that squad. It was great times. It was very, very promising times and looking at it in hindsight now it really blows my mind because again I go back to the conversations that I've been lucky with guys who were playing in those games at Spartan Stadium and in games that I was watching on TV as a very young kid back in the late 90s and even into the early 2000s and it's something that I don't think the MLS heads right now and it's hard to blame them for this. I don't think they necessarily want you. I say you kind of as the grand scope of thing you out there listening to the show who may not be that familiar with Major League Soccer. They want you to see a packed Portland Timbers Stadium. They want you to see a Seattle Sounders match. They want you to see some exciting goals from big name international stars. They don't want you to see little narrow pitches and crazy uniforms and shootouts and just so many different bizarre qualities that that early period of the league had, which really was in so many ways still going on in the early 2000s and to the old North American Soccer League. I mean, I look at the shootouts as a fine, fine example of that and the old gimmick that would end games that would end in a tie normally in the rest of the world. There were no draws in Major League Soccer. We had to have a winner. We had to be American. We had to have a winner. What that did for a lot of people in the early days who were in the early days. I want to go back to something that I look at as a positive and it's hard to have this conversation with a lot of people who are ardent MLS supporters, not just supporters of a team in MLS, but ardent supporters of the league itself. I find it very difficult to have this conversation with them because many of them seem to get very defensive, shall I say, when I make the point and the game, I want to go back and go back to the game. I just want to go back to Mahalic. I just named all Columbus crew players, by the way from the late 90s, they're not intentional, but when so many guys who have chat with Eric Winalda has gone off at late about this to me, and you might say that, oh, this is just a bunch of old guys reliving their glory days and they get better and better as they get older and older and older, all of those days, all the shootouts, all the crazy uniforms, all the narrow pitches, the actual quality of the soccer, and this is my opinion as well, was better back then, and the reason why it was better back then is because the talent wasn't so thinned out and this idea of being so spread thin around the league and the emphasis on these few big money signings for the league and these designated players. I think it was in 1996 and '97, and again, one of the best conversations I've had about this was with Janish Mahalek, who was an incredibly well-respected broadcaster and television presenter and analyst here in the States, up in Canada, he's worked with various European outlets, and Janish makes the point of, I mean, in '98, you had guys in '98 who were playing in the 1998 World Cup, like, forget '94 for a second was built off the '94 World Cup. You had players in '98 who were major factors for their countries at the 1998 World Cup, and not just American players, and I look at the end of the early 2000s. I remember the conversation with Jimmy Conrad back on World Soccer Talk radio that I was lucky enough to have back in, I think it was August, and we examined the 2003 San Jose earthquakes major league soccer, MLS Cup winning team, and those teams, they were 18 players. That's it. Could you imagine a team in any league in 2016, 18 players, no reserved team, nothing, and the point that Jimmy made is that when you have a team that is merely made up of 18 guys over the course of a 32-game season or whatever it was at the time, plus the playoffs, plus a few US Open Cup matches scattered in there, whatever else is going on, all 18 of those dudes better be badass. All 18 of those dudes better be ready to go, and I look at Major League Soccer right now, and yet some simple 2+2 edition, in fact, it works perfectly, it's 12+12, there were 12 then, and the era that we're referencing right now, and there were 24, there's 24 now, and we're on the way to 28, and then we're on the way to 32, and I just don't see the talent spreading around the way that some people do, and I know for a fact that those teams back then were better because the talent was condensed. Everyone of those 18 guys had to be great. There's no question about that, and I think we're getting right to the heart of the matter immediately here, which is that below the division, one, which is what we're talking about, essentially here, is that the infrastructure in those intervening 20 years, right, hasn't essentially changed. That nothing that U.S. Soccer has done below in the grassroots effort to try to build a soccer culture, to try to build a grassroots element, to match the Germans, or to match the Spanish, or to match anybody, has been addressed in those follow-on 20 years, right? We had a great sort of reboot in that '94 World Cup, right? We got everyone excited. We got everyone sort of interested. Everything was happening. Everything was positive. There was a great feeling about the National Soccer and Club Soccer in this country, and we had great personalities that you just talked about with Eric Winalda and others, and Brian McBride, who, when I've talked to guys who worked in the Fulham Academy and were around Fulham, say that Brian McBride might have been the best striker that they've ever worked with at Fulham. That says a lot, right? It's a great club that with a long history. And they talk about Brian McBride with very glowing terms. So you're talking about a special player here. And in the last 20 years since that has occurred, we've done very little to address the supporting systems to keep that, you know, it's like we could have planted the trees of the little shoots and really build on that. And yet, in true American fashion, we just turned it into a cash machine and you know, went for the glitz and glory, I guess. Well, I think what happened, too, is, you know, as a player came up through the system, we majorly soccer in the early ages. I remember these early fire teams under Bob Bradley, which were, in my opinion, some of the best teams, like those early DC United teams, those, you know, some of these players, some of these teams, as Nate said, were phenomenal. And the spreading of the talent that we see now in the expansion, and I call it unabated expansion. I think MLS must be very careful with this with regards to standard of play because, as Jim and Nate, you both said, if it's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger, it can become the snake that eats itself in so many ways. And I think what we're doing in the development of the game in this country has undergone some overhaul, some rebranding, and I use that term rebranding seriously when I say, you know, you call it an academy, is it truly an academy? And I know the academy system is supposed to pay dividends. I know we've gone through the gamut of what other countries are doing. Will it work here? And I think there's so many things that are central and almost, in terms of I don't know that we are ever going to get to a spot where one league can ever dictate the direction of soccer in this country. And so, Nate, I'll ask you this question. What idiosyncrasies, what little things do you think that make MLS such a different, or not MLS? How about MLS, N-A-S-L, U-S-L, N-P-S-L, American soccer, semi-pro professional? What makes it so different than anything else that you've seen or you consume as a fan of the game? Well, there's a number of different ways that we could go with this, a number of different additional doors that we could open. Because, for me, in the good sense, what makes American soccer special, and I referenced this in the opening when I'm just trying to introduce myself to the listeners, is our multiculturalism is what makes our soccer so special. It's what makes our soccer culture so unique. We are the American melting pot. We are a country that was built by immigrants. We are a country that is made up of so many different backgrounds from Europe, to Latin America, to the Far East, to Africa, to the Far North, whatever it may be. I mean, we have so much in this country as far as diversity that we can embrace. And to me, that is one of the most special things about American soccer, that for quite a while was a major factor in who we were in so many different ways. And I feel like we've lost some of that in the current sense. And I feel like we've lost it with good intentions, because we created something. When I say we, I was just a child for much of this creative process, but we created a soccer nation that didn't exist for a long time. I mean, that is a dark period from 1950 to 1990. Yes, there was the North American soccer league in there. There was a number of different things if you really read up on what was actually happening during those 40 years. So I feel like we're growing in the baby that is American soccer and now American soccer is an adult. And where does it go from here? And I feel like we lost some of the ways that we embrace the multiculturalism because we finally looked around and said hey, we have our own thing now. We've created our own thing in this country. Let's move forward with it. We've created a worldliness. Some would say even myself as someone who is enthusiastic about multiculturalism and worldliness, I would say you're going to push it a little bit too far, but that might be for another show or later on in this episode. But I feel like that's one of the biggest conflicts is people not necessarily embracing as much as I would like to see what makes America special. It could be a microcosm of that and should be a microcosm of that. And I hope that that's something whether it's with the leagues and I'll say this Major League Soccer has actually done a fantastic job on a marketing and business level in terms of adding to the worldliness of the league. I talk to people in England every week who say I'm watching an MLS match and they're saying that enthusiastically I talk to people and even Mexicans who are fans of league IMA-Eki teams who actually say oh well you know now that GEO is playing for the Galaxy I've watched Galaxy games. You've got Dragba fans watching Montreal, that's all fine and Danny. So MLS has actually done a decent job with it in that regard. I know the North American Soccer League has also done a great job. I just think on an overall level we could still do more to embrace the diversity and embrace the special and let American Soccer be a shining example of that melting pot. Do you want to follow that up? Yeah, I just wanted to follow up with a quick statement that I believe that the English Premier League to me has overtaken that that shining beacon as being the true melting pot of world soccer. Football, right? And I think it has more to do with money than anything, right? So they've allowed the, you know, by TV contracts, etc. They have been able to bring in the world stars from every corner of the earth, which is something that, you know, I'm surprised that we haven't been able to do being that we're, you know, obviously the richest country in the world. But the other thing is, is that I'm more encouraged by the and I'm glad you brought up the NASL. When I look and see, like, Alessandro Nesta doing a team in Miami, that's a very encouraging sign to me that there's interest from real football people, you know, who are very respected around the world, who bring a very multicultural view of football and can attract real football talent into this country. And so I think NASL has been a bit more open in terms of real football people being involved in the executive level and the running of the team and coaching, etc. One thing I think that from the coaching side and John can probably address this more is that MLS coaching seems to be a recycle of an old boys network from team to team that we see the same white guys running the clubs and they just get recycled around the league for the most part. Whereas in NASL you're seeing more of a mixing pot, more of a multicultural, you know, crew that are running the various clubs around the NASL and you're getting a better representation of the world's game, I think, in the NASL at this point. I think what we're seeing with regards to coaches who have been successful in Major League Soccer as opposed to coaches who have been successful in other American leagues is there's two aspects that I see in this. One, how well are, how good are you, how well can you communicate, how well can you actually coach? Is there a place away with being well some people do, maybe if you're not sure whether you're something, but being a terrible coach. But I think the best coaches in MLS aren't necessarily the best coaches we have per se. They're the best ones who know how MLS works with all the mechanisms, the functions, they understand the player systems, the multiple drafts, the amorphous rule book that tends to dictate the league, and I think once they understand that, they become better coaches for that league. Now when it comes down to being better coaches for soccer, the American game, yeah, we're seeing some interesting discussions take place. Bob Bradley, over in France, and, you know, previously in Norway, doing some work there. I know plenty of people who say there's an American bias with coaching abroad, but I would love to see more American coaches test themselves abroad, maybe go get another license instead of a U.S. soccer federation one. But I think, you know, what we're getting at is all the things, the melting pot, the culturalistic ties to the game, I think it produces a certain type of standard, and I think it produces also a player, unlike any other in the world, in that we have players that have to travel more, play in varying conditions across the country, and on different surfaces that no other league that I know of really has to deal with. Nick, can you kind of speak in regards to what you've gathered from former players about just the things that nobody really talks about, but they are factors if you play in American soccer? Well, I mean, we could go, again, a number of different ways with this. We could talk about turf fields. We could talk about ample air travel. We could talk about the extended regular season through the heat of the American summer, and so many of these places, and actually a season that starts where some places where winter goes all the way into April. There being no summer or what would be the equivalent of a winter break in Germany or other leagues. There's none of that in Major League Soccer Barring, you know, International during World Cup years, and that is actually a new thing, by the way, it actually didn't happen until very recently. Major League Soccer used to just play right through the World Cup. There would be games happening literally at the same time as a World Cup quarter semi-final. I remember those days quite well. No, and those things shouldn't be mocked and undermined. There are people who get labeled, oh, the Euro snob crowd, the anti-MLS crowd, and I love all these labels. And then, of course, you've got your promotion and relegation and you're your anti-MLS guy. Then you've got your MLS fan boys and you've got your ultra-defensive MLS folk. I love these labels. It is so nice to speak in mass generalisms and base everything that we say in nothing but simple stereotypes. But in all seriousness, one thing that actually does irritate me a little bit is when I hear the more anti-MLS crowd kind of scoff and mockingly laugh when they hear about air travel, when they hear about playing on artificial turf, when players have gone off at length about playing on some of these fields in the league. I don't think you can even call them a pitch. I mean, it's something that's made out of artificial plastic. Is that necessarily a pitch? So we go forward with that. I feel like there is a legitimate gripe from many players as far as I've called the idiosyncrasies, the intricacies on a difficult level for some of these players. I think there's totally some legitimacy to these things. And they're things that need to be addressed. But here's the issue and we get back again kind of the crux of this thing and that is that with the way that this league has been built and we're focusing on Major League Soccer right now, but now the NASL, which I've been a big fan of on a lot of different levels of the San Francisco deltas for for 2017. It is truly a coast-to-coast league now covering three thousand miles. There's going to be plenty of travel weekend week out for these players and jet lag to deal with and all that that goes with that. But in regard to Major League Soccer, it is really unfortunate because the way that this league has been built and the way that it has been built into a cash cow and what many people would call a pyramid scheme and in a number of of different ways, a Ponzi scheme that requires everybody to buy into this thing. I don't really see much way for it to change other than dismantling the entire thing and starting over and as much as I would love to be able to go back in time to 1996 or dismantle this thing and help build it from scratch. I don't think that that's going to happen and so therefore we're kind of stuck with what we're stuck with for the time being in regard to many of these things within Major League Soccer and I feel like geographically the league is becoming stretched but hey, every other league in America, every other league in American sports is a coast-to-coast entity so why can't MLS do it is the first thing that's happening in America in America. I think that the soccer is a different beast and the soccer schedule is an entirely different thing from a baseball or NBA schedule or an NFL schedule that's taking up two and a half to three months of a 12-month calendar. Soccer is an incredibly different beast and I feel like the structure of this league right now is not friendly to players. In Major League Soccer who would second that opinion and I feel like there's a lot of executives and folks who are quick to defend Major League Soccer who would quickly crush that statement and say, "Hey, we're just like any other American sports league." Jim, I'm going to ask you a question that I think because you have a deeper history from your times of watching the old NASL and Hellbent on making these rather valid comparisons but also kind of when you look at the global game and the global context and the global format kind of ridiculous comparisons to MLS and American sports. It's almost like a shoe-horning exercise where it's well, every other American sport has playoffs and they all do well there and it's another season on top of another season. What kind of history in the game have you seen as a detraction or is it just a normal thing with being an American sports fan who likes baseball team, a hockey team, a basketball team and now a soccer team? Well, you know, I think that what's happened is ever since the NFL has become so involved with Major League Soccer that we've seen a constant sort of marketing barrage in terms of making the marketing of the league coincide or sort of dovetail in with very similar to NFL. So what's happening is they want to make it as palatable and as familiar, I guess, to the NFL fan and to the fans of the other sports so that they don't have to explain the sort of the, I guess, what you call the strangeness of the game to the American fan, right? So, in many ways, soccer football has been has been seen as this strange oddity to American fans for so long, for whatever reason. It's always been seen as a foreign sport and, you know, I think the executives and the marketing people have been trying to see like just any other sport, right? So let's make it as normal as possible. Let's give it play-offs. Let's give it, you know, let's put it in conferences just like the NFL. Let's have this, you know, a draft. Let's have, you know, let's have all the normal, a kutramal that you would put around an NFL team and that way people can talk about it just like they talk about NFL. And let's do fantasy leagues and let's do this. Let's do that. And I think that's really the motivation is to try to make it, you know, since they are NFL people who are running the show at MLS, they really want to try to make it as much like NFL as they possibly can. And when N-A-S-L, the original version of N-A-S-L, their intention was a little bit more in the pure footballing sense, I think. You know, they really wanted to go after the greatest players in the world. So they were willing to take some risks and say we want to be the best, you know, we want to have the best players, we want to have the best game, we want to have the biggest, we want to be the boldest. There was a little bit different you know, ultimately, that's what ended up being their ruin. But I think MLS is banking on the fact that they can mainstream the product, which is what is on the field by making it look and feel more like an everyday American sport. Well, and that is something that can make a lot of money in America and say what you will about the soccer Don and his cronies, they've set up a damn fine business model from their point of view, and they've set up a business model that, well, there are ways that it could still very much collapse and not only hit a ceiling, but just bring the entire house down. And I again encourage everybody to check out Stefan Simanski's work over the last couple of years, the soccer nomics and see what he talks about as a scheme and pyramid scheme in terms of major league soccer, but in all honesty, on the flip side of that, there is a business model that has been set up that is made to make money in the United States. And the league is, for all intents and purposes, I don't know exactly how much, but when you look at these franchise buy-in fees of over $150 million in some cases, the league is making money, the league is not, which was not true in the days that I like to reminisce about. Yeah, say what you will about the football, the league was fledgling that entire time, so, so, chappo to you, Don Garber, in that regard. However, it does nothing for our standing on a global level. It has done nothing for our national team. In fact, what we talk about here, many of these things that we're addressing, have hindered the U.S. men's national team, have hindered our ability to advance our national team and our chances of competing in World Cups, our chances of competing for legitimate prizes in something like the Copa America Centenario this summer. Our national team is, at least in my opinion, is lower than it has been in 15 to 20 years in terms of the quality of our national team and everyone again. Yes, that's not, that's not Jürgen Klimsmann's fault. Oh, I didn't say it was Jürgen Klimsmann's fault. I also didn't say that it was all Major League Soccer's fault, but we are talking about this, and I am going to factor in what Major League Soccer has done to our national team as a hindrance, because it absolutely is, and again, this is something that ruffles so many feathers among the quick-to-defend MLS crowd, but it's just a fact for me, at least, that Major League Soccer and the way that this league has been constructed over the last few years, and the bringing home of Michael Bradley and Josie Altador and Clint Dempsey, and seeing how they have actually started to have dips in form in their careers, as opposed to playing against top-flight European competition, weekend, week out. Back in those days that I referenced, especially, I want to go to the early 2000s, because the 2002 World Cup is the greatest performance, other than the funky third-place finish in your fourth place at the first World Cup with 13 teams. The 2002 World Cup is the greatest piece of glory that American Soccer has ever had, and very easily could have snuck past Germany and gotten into the semifinals. That squad was this incredible mix of European-based players and Major League Soccer players, and all of those players in Major League Soccer, and this is landed on of it included, which will be for a whole different show, but all of those players at that time that were MLS-based, they were all being looked at and all being encouraged to build everything they could career-wise in Major League Soccer, shine for the national team, and go to Europe, and then continue shining for the national team, and there's this ego thing that that's not right. No, we have to have a league where players are comfortable and proud to play in their own domestic league, and I think about countries like Argentina and Brazil. I think it's safe to say they've had some success at the international level, and for years, and years, for decades upon decades, that's been the formula in Argentina and Brazil, is that we can be a breeding ground, we can groom these players, and then send them off to Mecca, send them off to the mother land that is European football on so many levels, and get them in with the right team in a top-flight European league in the right situation, and so I think the fact that this encouragement of U.S. players playing an MLS throughout their primes, I think it saddens me, however, you also have to think on a human level, and you have to realize that footballers are human beings, and yes, some people would like to not necessarily be 6,000 miles away from their family, so let's not completely ignore that, however, if I'm just from the standpoint of the U.S. Men's National Team, I have seen so many different factors of Major League Soccer become a great hindrance to the advancement and the overall quality of the United States Men's National Soccer Team. I agree, go ahead, Jim, go ahead. No, let me ask the two of you guys a question, and this is something I find unique around football fans that I talk to, is in this country, I see many people who defend the league and not their club when they start talking about football. You go to England, you go to many places in Europe, South America, whatever, they talk about their club, they don't talk about their league, it doesn't matter what league they're in, if they get relegated, they're not talking about I'm going to defend the second division with my life. You know, John, why don't you take that one, John? I think a lot of that comes down to, and I was that way when I was kid. When I was kid, I loved the San Jose Clash, and eventually the earthquakes that I moved to Chicago, and I found a new team in the fire, and it was almost too much of a good thing because there were so many things that weren't present then that are now. You could go to a game, buy an $8 ticket, and go to the front of the stands and see this team play. You could see them practice at local high schools. It was so accessible, and I think early days, early pierce of major league soccer and American soccer, those who have grown up with the game in that league. I think there's a belief that the league gifted us soccer. You know, without that league, soccer may not exist at the level it is today, and that's probably true to some extent, and without getting into the nitty gritty details of well, we have a robust history in the open cup and amateur teams, and I totally understand that. I think there's a, I don't know if Stockholm syndrome is the right way, but I think people are very, very defensive of wait, this league took a risk. People took a risk, really, and they took a risk to buy in, and if we upset them, they could pull out, and we wouldn't have anything. I think there's that a lot of people are finally, I think the single entity thing is, to me, it's problematic for some aspects. I think people are very quick to defend the league because it does ensure that their team is competitive year after year after year. Now, we can talk about whether that's actually true or not, or whether DPs are like, am I going to go to Salt Lake City, or I'm going to talk about that, but I think the illusion of parity, the illusion of some of the things that the league protects teams from doing, you know, you can look at the carcasses of Chivas USA, Miami and Tampa Bay, you can look at those things, and you can look at some of the poorly run teams in the league, but I think most fans aren't going to go to that level. I think most fans are just happy to have something, do you want a Saturday, or ones that whatever the games are on, and I think that there's there's a big element that's prevalent in American soccer. Nate, what do you think? Well, I actually want to throw something in here because I myself would be an exception to this rule, which is very much the rule, and it's something that we've referenced so much, and the way MLS has become soccer NFL. I mean, my god, the commissioner himself is a former NFL employee. I mean, there's so many different people who've worked with the National Football League and building this thing with this NFL business model. It's all about the league first. It's about the single entity structure and so on and so forth. It's really funny for me personally listening to you guys talk about this because I myself, and John, you were at some of those games in San Jose as well, but I developed a great affinity, a great affection for my club, and I remember that inaugural season as a very, very young child. Like I said, the name Misa El Espinosa and the name Eric Winalda, I mean, those two guys were, they were like gods to me. I mean that. They had a true connection to the way people who grow up as little kids, whether it's in England, whether it's in Mexico, whether it's in whatever country in this world and find that connection to a club and two players on their local side. And what ended up happening as many of you know, as some of you may not know, because Major League Soccer has done a damn fine job at just sweeping this whole story under the rug. In 2005, I watched a week in, week out at Spartan Stadium. Perhaps the best ever team that I personally have watched week in, week out, where I was at 15 games, 20 games throughout a season. I have never seen a team that was better through the course of an entire season. That was the 2005 San Jose earthquakes who were then knocked out in the first round of the playoffs by the Los Angeles Galaxy after winning the supporter's shield after being the best team in the league and this incredible story with Dwayne D. Rosario leading the charge and Brian Ching up front and this fantastic earthquake squad. I could name that entire team, but we'll move on for this reason, because what I want to talk about is the fact that just a month later, my team was literally seized and taken away from me. That club that I developed that affinity and that affection for was literally seized by the league, taken and moved to Houston. And I still remember this vividly, that in December of 2005, I went to SJearthquakes.com to just reminisce and we were hoping that the team was going to be saved and I went on one day and there was a message. The entire website had been condensed to one front page message and it said, "Great news, earthquake fans. Your team is here to stay." And I started tail-wacking. I was like, "Oh, they pulled something off at the last minute. Oh, my God, the quakes are staying." And the next paragraph read, "That's right. Your history. Your colors. Your crest. Your team will be here." Dot-dot-dot in very fine print. Yes, the actual team itself and the coaching staff, all the players, they're going to be moving to Houston to become the Houston Dynamo and they're going to go into Houston as perhaps the best assembled squad in the league and they're going to win the next two MLS cups. But hey, your logo and your colors are going to be here to stay. And in a couple years, we'll sneak a new earthquakes in. Allah, the Cleveland Browns in the NFL and act like you guys never moved away despite the fact that for two straight years, you had to watch all of those players that you loved so much, the likes of D-Row, the likes of Brian Ching, the likes of Brad Davis and Brian Molin and Pat Onstad. And you had to watch those guys lift MLS cup not once, but twice in a row in '06 and '07. And then you're supposed to just forgive the league and act like that. None of that ever happened. And I perhaps have been a little bit guilty of it as we're a number of different earthquakes. Fans said we would never forgive the league. Well, when they brought the team back, guess what we did? We started going to games, we started supporting our local side again as I called them San Jose earthquakes part two. But Major League Soccer doesn't call it that. They don't want that part of history to be known. They don't want you to know about the land in Donovan's saga that played into that. They don't want you to know about Alexi Lalas' role in the downfall in the final year of the San Jose earthquakes. That's right, Alexi Lalas, the general manager can part way through that '05 season with the San Jose earthquakes. These are things that the league does not want you to talk about. And it's so ironic and so funny because the point that Jim makes is so spot-on is that people more often than not seem to be fans of the league as opposed to fans. I shouldn't say necessarily fans of league are supposed to fans of teams because you talk to people in the Pacific Northwest who have great histories going way back with the timbers and sounders and there's plenty of other examples. Where people do have passion for their clubs. But when it comes to being a little bit more defensive of things, people get very defensive about the league itself. And for me, it's such a strange dynamic where I get criticized as a radio presenter and as a writer from both sides. I get the anti-MLS crowd and the pro-MLS crowd hating me simultaneously. So I must be doing something right because I get called a hypocrite in this regard of how can I say all these things about Major League Soccer and be so against the league and then on the weekend I go watch the Quakes play and I cheer on the Quakes at our fancy new stadium in San Jose. Oh, I'm such a hypocrite. But it's like, no, I don't feel I'm a hypocrite. I support my club more than anything. And my club that I grew up just 35 minutes from was the San Jose clash. The San Jose earthquakes, understanding the history of soccer in San Jose. So I actually, again, look at myself as an exception to that very true rule that you and Jim point out, John, that people are quick to defend the league. I'm a fan of the San Jose earthquakes. I am not a quote unquote MLS fan. The team just happens to play in Major League Soccer. I think that's a really important distinction. And I think I'm glad you said that because I think we need to get to the point with American soccer discussion where the fans of the league are necessarily diehard fans of the team. I think the ones that are going to defend the league are the ones who are just like, we have soccer, what are you complaining about? You know, I think that there's that sector of the crowd. Jim, what do you think? What's your opinion on this? Well, you know, I wish there were more people that would be fans of a quote unquote club or team or whatever you call it. You know, that's part of the issue I have with single entity structure is that it's hard to be a fan of a club because there is no club. You know, when you really look at it there, you know, it's a collection of, you know, salaried employees of the league. And so, you know, when you look, when you peel just one layer of the onion back, you get into a very interesting situation where, you know, it's sort of like every game is an intramural scrimmage if you really look at it that way. And so, it makes you question the integrity of the league at a certain level. But, you know, here in Colorado, we have an original team. So, you know, we're one of the original whatever there were, right? And, you know, we also have, you know, Mr. Anschutz, who probably saved the league several times from extinction. And so, you know, we've kind of been an integral in the history of the league many times over. But it's a very odd situation here in Colorado because our current owner is the cranky sports and entertainment group, which is probably the worst ownership group you could possibly find in sports anywhere. And they just, they simply refuse to put any money forward until all of a sudden this year they decided to dump some money into it. And, you know, like anything, they're sitting in first place. And it's like, for me, that just shows you how illegitimate the league really is. If you can just drop, you know, a few bucks and all of a sudden be on top, that's, you know, that's almost frightening. Well, go ahead Jim, sorry. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, Nate. It's something that Jim just opened up that goes back to when you talked about some of the problems on intricate levels within Major League Soccer and me having, again, the great privilege of interacting with players, both former and current, the salary discrepancy in this, or the disparity that so many different ways that we could put this in this league is so problematic. And before I make this point, I want to just make another quick point. And that is that I deal with this with the staunch anti-MLS crowd oh so often. And that is that these players, no matter who they are, where they come from, when they're in minute 89 of a 1-1 match and they're just sweat pouring down the face and they've run 8 or 9 miles through the course of a game, none of them are thinking about single entity structure and promotion and relegation and all of these problems that we're talking about. They are soccer players, they are professional athletes, regardless of how much money they're making, any of them, they are thinking about that moment, they are competitors, and they deserve to be respected in that regard as competitors. However, five teams, five teams out of 24 accounting for nearly 50% of the league's entire salary costs is absolutely mind boggling. The fact that 10 players, 10 of these designated players account for about 33% of the entire league salary base, that's right, 24 teams filled with so many different players, 10 dudes make up a third of the player's money in this league. That is extraordinarily awful and makes it so hard for these players who, I mean, Chris Wandalowski in 2010, I'm a man who is now going to be remembered as a Major League Soccer Great, one of the all-time leading goal scores. Chris Wandalowski in 2010 was making $48,000 a year. He was coaching soccer in the Silicon Valley, he was coaching a couple club teams in the Silicon Valley to add money to his bank account, to make ends meet, to add a little bit more to $48,000 a year. There's so many different examples that we could give of what guys are making, and it's what broke my heart about the union finally breaking down last year. Another issue that we don't really talk about much, you remember that potential strike at the beginning of the 2015 Major League Soccer season, but these players are not fairly compensated. And when you look at the money that is in this league, you look at these $150 million buy-ins for these franchise fees, you look at all of the money that's flying around in so many different levels in the way that the league has grown and the fact that it doesn't trickle down to the players more that it really just trickles down to 10 dudes and five big market teams. The fact that the average player in MLS does not make more, and they always talk about the median salary. This is one of the stats that drives me insane. They talk about the median salary of $110,000. Well, that median salary, I went to Humboldt State University and I can still do this math. That median salary is driven up a little bit by those 10 dudes who make 33% of the league's entire money. The average player in Major League Soccer is so poorly treated on a financial level, and that drives me crazy because they give so much to the league. They give so much to their franchises, their clubs, their fans, their cities. They give so much, they're out there as professional footballers training every single day with all of their hearts, and they get squat in return. That is the biggest point is I think the most -- I'm going to put myself in the position of saying the day the league lost me was when the day I found out just how much the disparity between the baseline player, the marginalized American domestic product who was, you know, had a promising career ahead of them was making so little. And over the hill, marketable, you know, person who already made their money came in and you put those two on the field or those two in the locker room together, and you expect a better product. And I think MLS is very, very, very much copying a model that I don't believe is working out as well as it should. I mean, you can look at some DPs and say, yes, that's a success story. Then you look at people like Frank Lampard, failure, complete failure from the league standpoint, from performance standpoint, from the team standpoint, and I think what I'm seeing from the outside looking in is a coast heavy DP league that still marginalizes the American product of a player. I think that we are dependent on a system that, if a player does make it, the Chris Bond allows because of CJ Brown's, I think he's from San Jose, some of these people who made it, they made it out of, kind of despite the system instead of because of it. They had the battle and they had to work side jobs and they had to, you know, a resiliency is a big thing and I think the American player is a journeyman by nature in ways that other players are. And I think what we see here is, Nick, this is a great point, is I'm always going to be, if you're a fan of the game, I think you should always take the side, or my opinion, of the players to the degree that you want better for them. And if the CBA and the union was strong enough, they had enough money to actually pay these players for a lockout, I think we would have seen change. But I think I don't necessarily believe that MLS has the best interest of it's rookies and it's the baseline players you've pointed out, Nate, in his best interest. I don't think it has that in mind. I really think that this is a league that is still a little bit of a dog and pony show with regards to, "Hey, look at this guy, he's 37, and he's still lighting up the league." That's great. But he's making 6.5 million, whereas the guy giving him the ball, doing the grunt work, not to say that it's easy to score, but he's making, you know, $40,000 or $60,000, whatever it is. And I think that that's a problem. And I think you're going to see this deal where people have to be in the league for this 28-8, for people who don't know, is it 28 years old and 8 years of service to get free agency? I think that is going to shackle the league in the long run. I think if you're a young American player and you have the choice of maybe going abroad or coming home to play, do you really want to sign up for this system where you have to serve amount of years before you can choose where you might play? That's a big thing for me. And I think the more people listening who can take the side of the players, even if it's only temporary, can really fully understand what's going on in the league, to maybe make it better in the future. Well, I think it's also important too to tackle this stereotype of the spoiled professional athlete and to tackle that in regards to Major League Soccer. All you need to do is look up the numbers that we're referencing right now that, "Yeah, you've got a few dudes who are millionaires. You've got a few players who are big names." And apart from that, you've got a bunch of people who are treated like minions, you've got a bunch of people who are treated like pawns, and you can't have the league without them. You don't have football without players. That's just a fact. And these players are treated, again, on an international level. If you look at it from an international level, these players are compensated, for the most part, incredibly poorly. When you look at it from an American professional standpoint, and this is one of the hardest things to break through with people, because anybody, especially someone who's not necessarily a sports person, let alone a soccer person, you know, it's all the spoiled professional athlete, making all that money, and they barely have to do anything, this, that, and the other thing, and look, I understand where that sentiment comes from when you examine much of professional sports in the world. When you examine European soccer, when you examine the National Basketball Association in Major League Baseball, I get where that comes from. It's also important to say that when you look at Major League Soccer, you're talking about the salaries that are even for many of these players with school teachers in this country. So let's fight to raise both of those, because you can't have education without teachers, and you can't have soccer without players. So let's make sure that all of those people are treated ethically and properly compensated. On a last point, just to drill this point home, in Major League Soccer, 26% of revenues goes towards player salary. In the English Premier League, 71% of revenues goes towards player salary. So that should tell you where the priority is. Let alone, forget the numbers themselves that tells you where the priority is. I think the, well, for the sake of our listeners' years and for time, I think we're going to call this part one of this discussion, because this is, I think, opening up doors and rabbit holes that if we go down, we will turn this into a 24-hour podcast, and I don't want to do that. But I do think that we should definitely continue to talk about the understanding of Major League Soccer from the standpoint where we need to get to a point where we can celebrate the things that Nate has so diligently put forth. This is a cultural melting pot. We need to celebrate our teams. We need to celebrate the fact that you have something. We need to understand the points that Jim, you've made, which is, it's not all what it seems, and we need to be critical, but fair and firm with our analysis. And I think my standpoint, and most people who know me and my writing, think I hate the league, I don't hate the league, I wish it could be better, and I think there's ways to make it better. But I think, with regards to this conversation and for brevity's sake, we need to get to the point of maturity with the league. And I know my biggest struggle is most fans of Major League Soccer that I interact with are relatively newer fans, maybe 2007 and on. And so what we're dealing with is people who don't have this robust understanding that the three of us have. And I think going forward, and I'm going to talk to Omar about maybe getting us on again about this because I think we really could do a world of service for people by just saying, "Hey, listen, these are the things we think about. They're criticisms and they're not attacks, but this is why we can make the league better. This is how we can make American Soccer better because I do want to get into the European Queensland stuff. I do want to get into the National Program stuff. I do want to talk about how this league has either really helped the National Program or it's really hindered it. And I think we're at a point right now where we can all agree that it doesn't matter who's in charge of US Soccer, the structural format of Major League Soccer, the way it compensates players, the way it develops players coming into the league, those challenges, it's not competitive with the world standard. So with that, Nate, where can people find you and what are you working on now? And I'll do the same for you, Jen. Find me on Twitter. That's right, get at me with the Love Mail and the Hate Mail @NateWST. Again, that's @NateWST. And if you are down here in beautiful San Diego, California, you can actually catch me at the North County Battalion matches. That is the Upstart National Premier Soccer League club that I am working for on a broadcast level and doing all sorts of fun writing stuff down here in both San Diego and Tijuana as well. So if you want to come on down to Stadio Caliente with me once Cholo's get back underway, I would love to cross the Mexican border with you. Come on down to San Diego and say hello. And we've got our big, big Darby, a big rematch, actually, between the two San Diego NPSL squads, the Albion Pros and the North County Battalion on Saturday, May the 21st. So hey, if you're in Southern California, it would be a fun spectacle to take in. Come on down and take in the battalion Albion match. And Jim, where can people find you? Well, a couple of places. John... And where can they find your cat as well, Jim? Well, that's Fred. And Fred is... He's right on Twitter. Fred, I should get a Twitter feed for Fred because Fred is ancient and blind. But he ends up on all my podcasts. So somehow he always winds his way in. But no, you can find me alongside John, currently in the Masters of the Games series on these football times. I'm doing some stuff on Calcho Managers. Also at yearzerosoccer.org. I'm the Chairman of Year Zero Soccer. I work with John on that organization. My Twitter handle is @victorskamorza. And that's a long story. All right, well, we'll see that one. Fred loved that story, by the way. Fred is our fourth guest. By the way, also, I forgot to throw this out there. There is this big thing called the Copa America Centenario coming up this summer. And if you are at any of the matches at Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara or at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena, you will most likely see me there. So please contact me if you were coming to the West Coast, if you're coming to California for any of the Copa America Centenario this summer. Awesome. Well, I'm John Townsend. You can find me on Twitter at J01_Townsend, the number three. And I am proud to represent these football times for this podcast. And until next time, gentlemen, thank you very much. And I think we're going to start calling these podcasts Pet Sounds in honor of Fred. Thanks for listening, everybody. [BLANK_AUDIO]