These Football Times
Defending in the modern game, with Jamie Carragher
- Hi, welcome to the log podcast by these football times. My name is Omar Salim, I'm the editor of the site and I am your host today. I'm delighted to say that joining me today, we've got X player of Liverpool, made over 700 appearances for the club and is now one of the faces of Sky's excellent football coverage. Jamie Keriger, hello. - Hello. - Joining us as well from the US, we've got my co-host today, founder and chairman of Year Zero Soccer. He's done some great things out in the US and is an expert on the Italian game, particularly Italian defending, which is obviously very pertinent today. So hello, Jim Hart. - Hello, Omar, glad to be on the show. Hello, Jamie. - Hello. - We've also got John Townsend, former player, now coach and writer. He's been with these football times for a long time, featured on the Guardian NSCAA, one of the most influential writers out in the US at the moment, so hello, John. - Hello, Omar, happy to be on. - Great. And last but not least, one of my heroes, one of the absolute best writers we've got on these football times. Joining us from Siberia, about as far away as a remote as you could, Andrew Flint, hi, Andrew. - Hey, Omar, thanks for having me on. - Great. We are recording this podcast just a couple of hours after the Hillsborough Verics where we're released. A lot of us at the site, our Liverpool supporters have been there, have talked about what's happened at Hillsborough and we've featured it on the site. We just want to extend all of our thoughts to the families, everyone that's been campaigning with justice for '96. It's a huge moment, not just for them, but for British football and for justice as much as anything else. We're delighted for Liverpool as a city as well. I know that it's a sort of thing where everyone has come together in the city and has pulled in one direction. It shows the human side of football, which is absolutely brilliant. So just a couple of words on that. We'll crack on into the podcast now. Obviously our topic, we've highlighted it quite a lot on social media and on the site itself is the lost start of defending, have standards dropped in the game today. To get to the bottom of that, I think it's important to understand what a good defender is, what makes a good defender, certainly in the modern game at the highest level today. So we'll, I'll shoot that to Jamie. Jamie, what do you think makes a good defender today? Well, I think in terms of what we would say makes it a good defender today. It's probably one of the reasons why we're talking about the cost of a defender because in lots of ways now, we're looking for things for defenders that maybe we weren't looking for so much, 20, 30 years ago. We've seen more interested in what defenders are doing with the ball now in terms of how we judge them. I think that's been the case for a long time with fullbacks. I've always said fullback and I would judge on how many crosses you put in the box right and how many do you stop. And that's not a critical thing. That's just a fact that it would be games going on what we expect from fullbacks. And I think it's become more now with sentiments as well. How often we see centrebacks taking up fullback position to receive the ball from goalkeepers and split minutes. It's how we judge them now, especially at the top. I think that's probably had a detrimental effect to the defender in the class because I've seen all of this. A lot of defenders are more focused on what they do with the ball, but in terms of what we're looking for, I think you want to defend it to take every block. So that's why we want them all from defenders on the ball, but I still go back to what you want from a defender in terms of defensive side. And I always think reading the game and smelling danger is the most important thing. And I go back to probably your favourite player in that position, but it's easy. I think it's a master that you go back to, probably the most famous Englishman, probably more not the biggest. And I've sent the back of the other team, but read the situation. And a danger, I'm always there before. Things happen so I think those values we had long time ago are still there today, but I think we expect a lot more from them in terms of possession. - John, you've been out in the US, you've been close to MLS. The one thing that I noticed when I was working out there is that the standard of defending is a lot lower than what it is in Europe. And I think that's perhaps one of the key reasons why the game over there hasn't developed. Give us your thoughts on the standard of defending an MLS and what you also think makes a good defender at the top level. - Yeah, I agree with so much what Jamie said. I think in MLS, it's the structure of the league and the level of coaching isn't yet at the top level. So you have a less emphasis on tactics based on some of the defensive principles. I think as a discipline, it's not seen as a discipline, it's seen as a necessity in so many ways. I think you've got players coming from a collegiate system going from a three month season to a nine, 10 month season for the first time and you have a league that pays a lot of money for attacking players and going up against defenders that are making the league minimum. And so from a purely defending principle standpoint, it's still a league that has yet to have an identity with how it wants to set defenders up. It's kicking run in a lot of ways. It's improving, but you're gonna see David via go up against a player who's 22 playing his first professional season, which is again, another structural issue with US soccer, if that makes sense Omar. - Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think that Jamie touch on Franco Barrezi just then. I remember being a kid watching Barrezi's. For me, he was the smartest defender I've ever seen. I think people talk about Maldini now as being one of the smartest defenders they've ever seen, but I think Barrezi was the one that came first. With that in mind, obviously in that area, you had people like Barrezi and in Maldini came afterwards and over the last sort of 10, 15 years, you had people like Stan and Vidditch and Ferdinand and Maldini and Priyol and here are all these top defenders. Andrew, do you think that there is a lack of world-class talent in defense at the upper end of the game? 'Cause if you look at the game now, a lot of people are saying it's as much about the talent than anything else, that Jamie's 100% spot on in terms of what we expect from defenders, but as much as that, the quality of the players is diminished. What are your thoughts on that, Andrew? - Well, I think it's defining what the defender is that has changed the goal is how we judge what a good defender is. I mean, I'm glad Jamie highlighted the reading of the game because it makes sense of actually like me feel better. I've got the place and the snail, but at least I like to think I can see what's going on in front of me. So, I mean, when Rio Ferdinand signed for Manchester United for what was, I believe, a world record fee for a defender, nobody really complained at the time because, in my opinion, the sort of player he is. I mean, he is a bit glad, of course he is, but I think players like Rio have, I think he kick-started a trend almost where people felt like they had to appreciate the ball-playing centre-back. And I think that's just depends on what team or system the defender fits into. I mean, would you say is there a lack of defenders of the caliber of Rio? It depends if you're talking about the same type of defender. So, to answer your question, I would say there is a shortage of the same type of defenders, but whether that's a bad thing, I don't think it is. I think there are all sorts of systems. So, I don't think there is a shortage of world-class defenders, just a different type. - Yeah, I'm with you. Just one quickly for you, Jim, then I've got a couple of questions for you, Jamie, after that. Jim, in the Italian game, and we were talking about Barreza just a minute ago, I think that defenders going back in the years to people like Faketi and you can go even further back, they were all ball players. Now, it's a culture as much as anything else. What are you training in your young defenders? There's an argument that in Europe with some of the younger nations in terms of implementing technical coaching for the younger players nowadays, like the UK, like Belgium, they've taken their eye off the ball in terms of the basics when it comes to just simple defending, knowing what you need to do in terms of stopping the opposition from scoring a goal. Rather than focusing on when I get the ball, I'm gonna make sure that I play this ball at the back, I'm gonna make sure my positioning is nice and wide, so I can create space for my central midfielder. Would you say having watched the Italian game for, for decades now, do you think that Italy have got its spot on for years, that they haven't tried to coach technique too much? They've just focused on getting the basics right, that they know how to defend, and letting them play out simply. The Italian defenders, the thing that they do really, really well, is they play five or 10 yards. Their job is to give it to their central midfielders, give it to their fallback. It's not about necessarily travelling with the ball at the back, very few players can do that. What are your thoughts on that, Jim? - Well, I think that, I think that is what they train them to do, right? So if you can't say that they're not training them, that they're training them to do their job, and their job is to hold the line, think defensively first, and then move that ball the short distance. But Italians have always thought defensive first, right? Jenny Berra said the perfect match was a zero, zero draw. So that defensive mentality has always existed in Italy. But if you look at the leaders of the English Premier League this year, you'll see a very Italian looking back line. I mean, even though it's half German, half English, these guys, they don't handle the ball. They just clear the line. You know, Booth, and I forget the other guy's name, but you know, they're doing their job in a very simple way. And I think that is an important point in Leicester City winning the title in England this year, is they're not trying to play the ball out of the back with their center halves. You know, they're doing a very simple job. And I think that's important enough. Yeah, for sure. I'd love to get your thoughts, Jamie, on Leicester's defending. Obviously they go, they, they, their outball is the one to Vardy or tomorrow's, or they give it short to drink water to play that pass. What are your thoughts on how Leicester have defended their way to the title, Jamie? Well, I think what, what you're having already done, you've seen a crack of defenders there is, you already have, if you like, and maybe they have really old-fashioned center backs, if you want to head it and kick it. But there's nothing wrong with that. And the way you think I think for any culture, any players to start doing the same, that's what frustrated me at times, I'm not saying, I don't like the teams to play from the back hole defense. I mean, I agree with Liverpool, we would expect it to do that. But in terms of Leicester, why would you put your defenders in that position if you weren't capable of that? And why not play to the strengths? And I got to the stage where, actually, I think Leicester Pawn swans even playing with the striker, because people are getting so fed up at the bottom of the ball in the box, and they'll sit ahead in the way. But there's no point doing that against the, against Leicester, but do the team, you come up against now, they always go over the title, it's scarce. Now, we need to pay effect ones to make, in that, I think, the tongue in and out of the, really good on the ball. But they also defend, and I think the defender comes first, and the good on the ball, I think they, the ones I really look at, I think they've just got the balance right. I think this is what Morgan and Peter have done this season. It's fantastic, but you have to see how it'll be next season, and the Premier, and also in Europe, and the Champion, really, you can continue to play like that. But I think that the people at the moment, two centre backs, I like to really got the right balance of those who had spared between defending and also being comfortable on the ball. - Okay, with that in mind then, what about someone like Jon Stones? He's, he's talked about a lot, and... There's no question that at 21 he's got a lot to learn in defence, and I'm sure that you'll be able to tell us even better when you were 21, you had so much to learn about the game still. But what are your thoughts on Jon Stones' then, and the whole argument that, yes, he's good on the ball, but he's not a good enough defender. - Well, what I should be for about the biggest things for me is as a defender, if we even became and smelled the ninja, seeing things just before it happens, and I think he's got to bring that into his game, I don't think he's... I think that when you celebrate with a little defender, you're always, you're always worried, you play worried, that's something that's going to happen. Someone's going to make a mistake, so always think the way it is. I mean, I remember when I was 40 to 50, and I was at the national school, a little show, and a coach always said, "You ain't going to defend that." Always think, "Well, I'm going to face a dummy." He's going to make a mistake. And the opposite way, if you're going to attack that, always think you're playing with the best player in the world. He's going to put that cross, and he's going to play that to be a ball. And with Jon Stronger, that you just don't quite think he gets... He looks to relax when he's playing. It never looks... I think sometimes I'd be feeling that, you see, even a god and throws on heads, they're always looking at the scene of the game, you know, that I even go back to, in a game where I think a lot of people said he played well, it's semi-final. But even the winning goal, I'm looking out and thinking, "Does he see the danger of my child running a nufti?" Do you know, does he see it before? I think so, Jaguar got involved in something. Now, Jaguar got to create it, but for instance, I mean, I can play it. He talked about it through. But I think the really tough defenders sense that, or see that just before it happens. And that's something that I think with experience, hopefully, it will come because he is, you know, he's our best on the ball. And in terms of that, but the main thing is, possibly for the centre-back is to defend. And as I said, I think the spirits have got to play it perfectly. It's going to play a perfectly well-received and defend it right. But also starting to catch on the back and playing from the back, that's obviously what you need in the modern game. But I just want to like to see Jon Stone get more of the defensive sort of sense in danger. Yeah, for sure. Even the first goal. I mean, you've got to know to set back. But when the ball has hit the byline, you've got to be able to attack it. And you know that a good striker, there wasn't even a striker, it was Fellaini. So you know that any decent player is going to try and make that run in front of you if it's coming on the ground. Yeah. And yeah, it is anticipation. Anticipation's a big thing in the game at the moment. You know, it always has been. But when you were playing at Liverpool and you... I think if people look back 30 years, Alan Hanson was the best player I'd seen at bringing the ball out of the back with his feet and travelling with the ball out of the back. But he was complimented perfectly well by someone like Mark Laurinson. Because he was also good in the ball. People forget that he was good in the ball. And I think it was the same with someone like you and Aga, for example, where Daniel Aga was excellent at travelling with the ball out the back and taking the steps out, where you kept it quite short. And when the ball was, when you had a striker that you could play to, someone like Torres that could hold it up, you would dink it into his part. Is the balance between a partnership as much as anything else, the key thing? Yeah, I agree. I think you always like two players to compliment each other. It's not just a centre-back. It would be central with fear. It could be a centre-fall, two strikers. But in terms of the play that you've mentioned, in terms of Alan Hanson, it's starting off with him. Of course, he's had to have a very short, great defender. And also, of course, he's had to have a very short, great defender. And also, of course, he's down. He really is defensive. He called as a team. Now, I haven't prevented that cause really poor. You know, so that's not in your favour. You look a little close from the team's Hanson played. But it was top of the lead for, you know, clean sheets or goals against those type of things. And that's what you want. And that's why I go back to, you know, top of the missing. We've got a great defender. He'll also, you know, he's seen the passagemates. The aliens tend to create goals. So the base is going to be fun. It is about being brave, a terrific example. We think I'm coming out with the ball. Of course, it's fantastic. But AC Milan, year after year, had the best defense in a certain area. On the sake of Capello. And he was the main organizer. So that's the main thing, that's what I think I do. A newspaper for Columbus, John Stones. And so I think the headline was with the advice was, "Be brave, you must have it, Luis." And the thinking in that was that, "Be brave, "it was still a clean sheet. "It was still really fun, and it was still a nightmare "to play it into his mama, and how aggressive he was." And then he could play it with the ball. But it's getting those throws from the netless face, and letting you sort of get talent to come after that later. Because it's so good on the ball, in terms of it will come. We don't need to go and show people at each single game. We're in the opportunity to be there to show everyone what it comes in. One more thing for me, then, I'm going to shoot over to John and some of the other guys to ask you some questions. Do you think that young players that are coming through the system? I know this is quite good. You'd have thought that they do. But do you think that they enjoy defending less? Because it strikes me that when you were playing, you used to love defending. You would love putting in that challenge. You would love winning, making sure that you kept a clean sheet. That it was enjoyable defending. Whereas a lot of young players, you think that, "I'm looking at them thinking, "I don't know. "Do they enjoy it? "Do you love defending?" So, I don't know, what do you think? Do you think that? No, I agree. I think it spots on. I think a lot of that is now. Listen, I think it must not have been a huge influence on everyone's day. I think it's a whole team. People always look back up now. You think of, you know, even though I have to change that. And the Dutch, you know, the top football. I think you think of even Liverpool late 70s, early 80s. There's always a team from a native who you should have dominated the thinking of other teams. And people trying to take it forward. And a lot of lessons are linked from those teams. There's a lot of bias towards the end up over the last decade. I think a lot of that comes into the influence of people and players. And even young players. And also I think thinking, like, it's not your centre backs now, I think. Even the kids have actually wheeled out and centre forwards. I think I feel like everyone wants to be the player who plays behind the stage, you know. You know, I think even things like collaboration, you know, and kids on computers and what they're watching on YouTube are they're always watching someone do tricks or keeping your applause flex. And all you can do is sort of breathing those type of plays, which, and let's not forget, those type of plays are always normally the best player in the world at any year. But it's always the number 10 normally used at the man everyone looks up to. But I'll just leave even the academies. Now, there's so many of those players. They want to play in those positions. You have people that want to do that. The real, I wouldn't say something up the way they're looking for. But in terms of in the box, you don't know, defend and be defending in the box. It could be being aggressive in your positions. Boxers are sent to fold. They're going to score. I think we're going to have some venues coming in on the show. So how hard it is to go and buy, you know, sent to fold. We know what the problems he's had up there. But I think he's sensitive about this only really self-America that's producing outstanding sent to fold. So I think the problem about both ends of the pitch. Yeah, that's been my frustration with Benteke this season. Is that to get in the box? He's constantly outside the box, trying to link up play. Yeah. Let me jump over to Andrew. Andrew, I think you've got something for Jamie. Yeah, Jamie, I really like the point you make, about whether it's youngsters or young players coming through, enjoying the position they're playing in. It brings to mind a conversation you have with your good friend, Gary Neville, on Monday night football. When you said, nobody wants to be a Gary Neville. My favorite part of it was that he didn't disagree. And I think it actually apart from the personal side of it, the actual fallback position is one I'm particularly interested in. I mean, do you think, or how much of a problem do you think it is, then, that youngsters don't want to be a fallback or a wingback, or at least a defensive player? How much of a problem do you think this is for development? Well, I think the thing with the fallback one, I wouldn't worry too much about it. The only thing I'd say is because I always think players who end up being professional footballs normally get more often than not. The best player in the school team, the best player in the local team, whatever it may be, and probably the one position you'd say you wouldn't want to play, but before that, they normally play down the centre of the pitch, or if they were a fantastic quiz. Still, if they were playing wide, you'd never put your best player in a fallback. But I think fallback, and I would probably be one of the most important positions, and I think people fall into fallback either. Now, I wasn't that type of fallback. I always wrote about a fallback. I think a lot of the time you have a wing that goes to fallback, or you have a centre back, it goes to fallback, and I think it's the contrast in what they gave you. I mean, I don't rush long last night now to go centre halves in the back floor, and I've gone over to give you a rollback and fallbacks one of the different things. But I think more often than not, you see fallback to the top ones now. They're being winged when they maybe join their academies, and eventually they've gone to fallback because that's what we want. But initially when I first played fallback, I never played before, and I went there above the age of 2021, because you're absolutely like, and the thing about it, I found was you haven't more touches than anyone on the pitch, or that that's what it felt, you were continually involved in the game, because you're all sort of a spammer, some look at all this. If anything's a big title, the fallback's on. So I love playing there in terms of how many touches in the ball that you get. And I think fallback now is probably one of the most... Important position is on the pitch, I think you're looking at the spares as well, but they're not full back, they're like the wingers, even in the start position, they're like, "That's what I'm all about." Now, I think you're actually seeing fallbacks actually now patrolling the whole flank on the roll, because why plays don't stay wide? They're going to be coming side, being side forwards, or... They said, "You want to be number 10?" That's what it is. So you actually have some fallbacks now to maybe actually be good enough in 1v1s with the ball, because they're actually going to play it in front of you. They can't hold, so I think the way the fallback roll has changed. I think it's immeasurable really over the probably 20-30 years, and attention support is any position on the pitch. Jamie, do you see it becoming a more popular position then? I mean, do you imagine that happening? Or, like you say, does it matter? I think it could be, because... It's as much now about, well, maybe even more, in terms of going forward. And listen, that's what kids want to do. You want to be the school for play the best part. It's all about attacking. You said people are about people not enjoying defending them, but in terms of fallback rolls, a defensive roll. But that now, when I go back to that, I mean, when would you do your fallback? Would you do your attacking? When you, you know, I'm sure people, after the game, like, you know, walking out with someone's played, or a man in the problem, say, "Oh, the fallback played well." It's only because you got forward and might have had a copy shot, so you put something across the game, and it's always up and down. And it's not normally on shot, but when you're playing today, if you have a game in a kit, you don't want to add those sorts of phrases. I think when you're talking about a fallback now, and I said, "That's the way the game's gone." But no, I can't see it. They come and ever popular in the fallback position, because it is a position now, where it seems it's more about the offensive side of the game, and young kids grow and all can be involved in the game. That's what your dreams are, are that engaging, involved in the time of the first? Yeah, I think that the rise of the inside winger has helped as well. The guy that picks the ball up on the outside in the first thought, first thought is to overload in the middle and attack. That guy has allowed a quick fallback into the game, the one that can get there quicker than his winger can track him at times. That's obviously played a big part as well. John, here in the States, it's, you know, I'm starting to work with the academy system here, and one thing we've noticed, Jamie, is the absence of true wingers who want to get to the end line and serve. They all want to cut in, be inverted wingers. And I think in a lot of that has led to the decline of a true fallback, one who's willing to maybe take a guy on one-on-one and win that battle in that sector of the pitch. Do you see that a lot? And have you seen that a lot since you stopped playing and you see it in the academy over at Liverpool at all? What was that, you sounded like the 1v1 between the winger and the fallback? Well, we just see a decline in players willing to beat a guy in line and serve in. They all want to cut in and have a shot, or they want to cut in and be like you said, the playmaker. And I think a lot of that has led to the decline of a true tracking ability in the fallback, the player who is willing to force them outside and try to isolate them. They're giving them almost, it's almost a relationship where no true winger, no true fallback anymore, at least in the States. And I don't know if it's happening in England as well. Well, I think a defensive interview now as well as a fallback. You might actually a lot of it have up against someone. There's not a special one out there, the winger. It's actually giving it all a defensive problem because I don't think before the game is okay, that's my mind. I guess the ball, I want to show them all the basic principles level. You think it may become like against Tottenham and with LaMella and Eriksen playing inside. You never want to be only 1v1s. It's more your positional sense. They're stepping to midfield to laugh and do a whole new position. If a step in, you might feel them and lead in space for the centre forward to run behind in my space. If you all got from fallback, then you want to go into high space and the opposition. So they're the problems now for fall. It's not sure it's about a 1v1 anymore. It's more of it. I understand in the game what else is going on around. You don't think an elder player is sort of penetrating into that position. That was always a problem. I think probably 10 or 15 years old, you're playing against Arsenal. When you weren't sure, you should have gone inside. It's actually cold when I go there. It's teary on me. You're going to sprint back to space. And that was that continual move. Especially just down at one side. But I think we see that a lot now for fallback. Sometimes I'm always looking at the fallback. Go into the field where she's holding the position. Some coaches, we hope she was always adamant. Stay where you're at. Don't let open a space for people to listen to. But it's bending logic. There's no looking. You go with him. We make it really simple. And the winger has to go with the fallback. But there's no sort of a defensive way. I think I have to deal with that now. A fallback defensively. I think it's how a manager sees it. And also, you know, the players you've got in front of. Because sometimes you have a winger who's not great defensive. And you worry about if you're going to stay with his fallbacks a bit. He had problems after a fallback. And I was not that 1v1 defender as it used to be. It's more actually understandable game. So I'm going to change the pace here a bit. What would you say the toughest opponent on the attacking side you had as a player? Who was that? And how did that change your view of defending? It's a play fallback. Or just defending it maybe when you're at centerback too. Just any of the attackers who made you change your approach the most. Well, everyone, listen, go back and give them the first day they can even start. The pace is always the biggest thing for a defender that he doesn't like. And there's no change with that. But in terms of centerfall, do you come up against? I mean, I always found the real top players not had the playing in terms of it was a mental battle and such a beat in the game. It wasn't a physical battle. It was, you know, do the team want to keep possession, looking for the open end. So it's always been on your toes being switched on. And, you know, even where one second just fit you off, it could be a goal. But the one that I didn't quite enjoy is more truly the, I mean, it's not a physical fight with anyone on the football pitch, you know, it's only the challenge of the ball. It would be constant for 19 minutes and it wouldn't stop. And because you were telling for Liverpool and you were expected to beat maybe a boat more about being or a foam, you have your upper gains. You couldn't afford that one time for the strike. You get the best of your shoulders. At constant, backwardly ain't Bobby's your mode. Kevin Davis, these type of players. Where it would be, you know, probably 20 seconds to the end. You lose one flip on, you could get blamed. For constant, you'd team the game. That was the pressure you were in there. But it was such a fight here. And it's rather not the normal. That's kind of like another podcast, isn't it? Talking about the other end of the pitch. And the time of that sort of center forward, who used his elbows really well and put his body between the defender and the ballies. I must say, I quite, I've been impressed with Diva Karighu in that regard. Because he's been really getting his defender between, getting his body between the defender and the ball at times and bringing it in. Jim? Yeah, Jamie, one thing I've noticed in researching your life in particular is this consistency that you talk about and this, this attention to detail. And I'll give you an example. In your book, you talk about this moment in the Istanbul game, where after Liverpool scored the second goal, and you're down three to two, you look up and you see that Kaka is fixing his kit in some way. And you notice that he hasn't tracked back on defense. And you write about how it's that sort of detail and that sort of attention to the small things that you sort of credit for your success in a lot of ways. And that that was taught to you from a very early age. Part one is, am I reading it right? And part two is, do you see that being instilled in young players today? Well, I think that attention to detail is not just about the defendant. That could be in any role, really. And the one that you mentioned in a kick hard, it wasn't something I would say I meant that. So again, something if you look at it, what do you think? You know, be small things. What even am I supposed to have culture at Liverpool? I used to always say something. The small things make a big difference. And that's what it is because at the top level of the margin that year, you're talking about that from the side games. And I think that defines sort of the best players, especially the best cultures. It's all about the small details, really. And it's a tiny little thing that can make a difference. And you think of what happened in that final Kaka, fixing a shim pad, obviously, I can discover three, one minute at the time, he forced my sister's scores. But as a defender, then you've seen that in the game. You'd be so furious. You know, because he has half-and-plays. It's normally those type of players who just switch off for that second. And you think of the difference that it makes. And is it something that's maybe going up the game on a defensive side? Yeah, I think it is because we've mentioned earlier. And it's not just the small details. And probably the big details in the fundamentals, really, intend to defend them. And that's something that's going to come back. But be it through all the details that will always be vital at the top level of the game. Yeah, I guess that's really where I was headed with that. But when we talk about, you know, the small details of the game, you switch from full back or from center half to full back for part of your career. Which did you find more challenging and for what reason or did you find them both equally challenging? Well, I mean, the best position was center back without a doubt. So I enjoyed playing that most obviously. That would be the full back row was probably more challenging. And my challenging side was the fact I had never really played there before. And it was starting to sort of understand the new position. But I was I was suddenly the reason I paid for both because I had the good understanding of the game and I played at the level of it. So whenever I changed position that was never something that was like a total shot to me. Always felt they had the good understanding of what we required in different positions is. I would say the full back row for me was the challenging that was the actual the running side of it. Because I wasn't the greatest athlete in the world. I was the quickest player. What, you know, I'm associated with full backs. And I was more of a defensive type of full back and supported. But sort of doing that for 45, 40, 50 games this season is not easy. And I said I wasn't the greatest. I wasn't a bad athlete, but I wasn't super happy that you see it. You can go back and call or pass it off. You know, some of the great full backs you could run all day, Maldini. And that was probably the challenge for me really. Because I was somebody who's never injured. So I always played week in week out. So that's when I was playing three games a week in that row. So it was all probably the physical demand of it. Really and how best to sort of play that role to shoot what I was about. Because people say you've never got forward and you're right. But I did not have the physical capability to get up and down the land. It's a 19 minutes, probably three games a week when you're being successful and you're winning. So sometimes you have to sort of take your game to shoot your own needs. And obviously shoot the team. Jamie, who's the best defender you you've played with? And why? I think from a little bit of a point of view, I'd say Sami Hippia. I think we use some partnerships before. I know you mentioned Daniel. I get in terms of maybe more of the defensive type and being on the ball. But I think what's usually most of the Sami was, I wasn't the biggest center back in the world. I'm actually just under six foot. So that's not quite what you'd expect from a center back now in this day and age. It was great for me to have Sami. They had a big talent center back. We could deal a lot of it. Aerial stuff, maybe deal with stuff more on the ground in terms of defending. So he was a fantastic defender for Liverpool. I think with England, there was always a touch open. John Terry all the old players and both slightly different players. I was probably just with John Terry. I was a fantastic player. Probably more my type of defender than Rio was. So I think from the international scene, I'd say John Terry and me, I think he's been the standout one in the Premier League. And I think whatever you think about him in terms of physically and being more boastful in things in the year, it's actually will be even up again. That I think is fantastic. And you think about how many times he cuts things out of that near post. And I think he's on the value period because he understands the center back position in rather than just as physical qualities. Andrew? Yeah, Jamie, you mentioned the versatility where you switched from center back to fall back. And you feel yourself as a natural center back. You had a clear idea of who you were. position me. I just wondered whether you think versatility is perhaps a bit overrated. I mean, I'm thinking of Phil Jones as an example. He's been played at fall back at center back at center and sentiment field. And I'm wondering if it dilutes his idea of where he is, what qualities he's focusing on developing himself. Do you think it's becoming too fashionable to be too versatile and people aren't focusing on individual roles? Yeah, well, sorry, I just lost the name. No, it was the name that the player you mentioned. I think you're Phil Jones at Manchester United. Phil, who's Phil Jones? Phil Jones, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, if I go through my career again and map it out perfectly, I mean, I played this position similar to Phil Jones and it wasn't really to probably 25, 26. I just played center back then really for the rest of my career. But I think it's really helped me. I think it helps you to play. I think it helps you to develop a versatility, understand them to gain playing different roles. But if you do ask me, would I like to play center back from the age of 20 straight to middle career? I'm not just playing center of defense. I'd suggest I think it would have helped me in terms of maybe playing more times for England. I think when I went to England, I was thinking, and I think Phil Jones was seeing as well as we put him in the scope. You can play a few positions rather than saying this is his role, is what he's competing at, why was it for, you know, the center? And, but what it did for me was probably the position he was. He gave me a chance to play more games. So when you're going to play, I think it helps. But you don't want that talent for ever. So in a period of half a world, I think you may have had a played center back a lot earlier. But most of it is a young kid when you're trying to get on the bench. You know, for me, it was Liverpool, or you're trying to come on the field. You're playing, say, music. It actually helps you get more appealing. There's more experience, more getting in the way for the world to see, if you like. And it manages always one of those kind of players. And I think that's what manages work now. You're one, two, three players in the squad like that. But if you want to be one of the main players in the team, or one of the best players, they're not the only players that are a player, they're only a player. OK, he played great from there. And that's 14 or 5, then, to become under a lack of beneath. It has helped me develop and playing different positions. But I hear as I look to have played center back in the whole career. So I mean, would you say it's quite, it's quite important how tactically astute the manager is and how aware of your character he is. Like allowing you to, you know, allowing you to play different positions, but not letting you get bogged down too much in permanently changing your rounds. So, I mean, would you put it down to that? Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I don't think it helps when you're playing one position one week. I'm sort of next. And people say to you, you're a basic style player, and you do that with you. You're like, I couldn't really do that if you look at the sort of stats. So, you get a few leads from the season, I played some kind of the whole season. And then, you try to be full, but I play like right full for the whole season. And then we buy a right back, and then I play left back for the whole season. And then I keep going from side to side. It wouldn't be sort of four or five games here, two games there, I would be, because normally there's a style of players, you always think, but everyone's fit to sub, you know. But that was never normally the case with me, whatever, but I always play one position for the season and then whenever it happened, I'd go somewhere else for the season. So, I never felt like it was causing me a massive problem because I was playing a week for Liverpool, obviously a dream. So, I would feel like I could be doing that. But there's no doubt sent it back in the best position. I was, you know, I feel like I've been able to put me back there. And I could really show, I wasn't just someone who played for Liverpool, I mean, we've gotten someone who could be one of the leaders of the team, and one of the best sent it back out there, you know, when I was playing at my best. Hmm, yeah, we had a whole load of followers questions for you as well. Maybe take like the next 15 minutes and just have a chat about them, and then we'll let you crack on. No problem. We had, I was saying before, we had a whole load of crazy ones, same old one asking you who's the best player you've played with, but we did have one asking who do you prefer more, Gary, or Phil? Well, I think you answered that anyway. But yeah, we got one from you and McTear. Now, I quite like this one. He asks, "With the rise of fullbacks really pushing on and playing higher up the pitch, has the central midfielder now become more important to the defence, meaning the centrebacks than the fullbacks have?" Yeah, no, I think it's a good point. I agree with that, in that how many times we know we see teams, you could have a player back three. You know, you think of the central midfielder player dropping in between the centrebacks. That's something I think we did on maybe spoken about. Tottenham's doing a lot of this season, but they're at dire in that position, and you're pushing the fullbacks really high. And I mean, me and Gary, out of discussion about that, I think a good few months ago on Sky, about a three at the back system. And is it that, and my argument was, is it that different now, when we say a team player back four, because teams now, why plays it all took it in? Fullback to higher up the pitch, the centreback drops in good. You can easily say a team's playing. They've created the back, and I think it's spot on there. I think that sentiment field role now is, you probably couldn't, I don't even know if we could come up with a new name for it, because the position, when we say, "Well, when we say number 10, it's in between the centre, full and centre, material." It's not like the whole midfield player is in that role way. He's actually in the centre of the pitch. He's actually just patrolling like a fun sweeper, if you like. You know, because the fullbacks are going so hard, you need that protection centreback, no matter how good you are, you can't be left exposed to that much space. If there's no fullback there, so you can want to need health in your field. And it's always sort of in between the midfield and centreback. I think the role there at a diet plays the fact that he was a centreback, and now playing in midfield and helps spares a lot. Anything from anyone else, guys, on that? Yeah, I'll jump in here. Jamie, you notice how Javier Masurano has settled in at centreback so comfortably? Do you think this is much of a coincidence, or was it a moment of genius of Pat Guardiola to see this in him, or did you sense this in him at any stage of his career? Did you think maybe he could do a job because of his reading of the game? No, to be honest, I didn't really see that. I thought at the time he could maybe play fullback, and obviously, when I was playing with him, he was at Liverpool, and he was thinking, of course, he'd struggle at centreback because of his size, really, in English football, but obviously in Spain, you can talk about a midfield you're going into the back for, no matter who you think of, okay, he's going to be helping with the ball, but Masurano wasn't, it's not like Chabiolan's still going to centreback, and you're thinking, okay, he's going to have to sweep it. Masurano was a real aggressive hold in midfield, played like three defensive qualities, so we always had those defensive qualities, and I think even though you're looking at Masurano put him in favour of the back, you think, well, that's the best going away. It's not actually Masurano, he's building the attacks in the back, really, it's still TK in the man, I think he does that, and he's the one you'd see as the the man who starts the attack brings the ball out of the back. I think Masurano was there really for his defence, and of course, because he's got the experience of playing in midfield, he's better than most centrebacks on the ball, but I think he's probably going to be defensive qualities more than anything else. John, Jim, anything? I'm on my end. Okay, we've got a question for Rob. This is quite a good one, is the rising frequency of simulation and today's rules killing the art of good, strong defending in England? Jamie? Yeah, of course, I mean, it's very difficult now, I think one challenge or one challenge, one challenge you're going to end up in the ball. I think Fender's now going to be very careful, and I think any challenge you make now, I think in terms of going to ground, I think you're asking for trouble. I think it was always said to stay on your feet when you sort of defend, and that was something that you brought up, you can defend. There's not always easy enough to do that, but I think competitive in this day and age, I think, assuming you go to the ground, even if you win the ball now, you see the situation with the, kind of the 75, was tackled by the young, full-back of mine, and I saw a rush back, and people saying, "You've got the ball face," but I don't think the days of getting the ball faced are gone. It doesn't matter, you can tell what you followed through, you know, a scissors challenge, all these things come into it now. A long time ago, as long as you have the ball face, you could basically do anything, basically cut the position, attack on player in half, and it'd be okay. But I think rightly so, that's one of the getting back in that, should encourage better defending without a dive, and then using your brain, staying on your feet, pushing people to say it in areas. And at times, you've seen, you know, what we've seen from pocket team, what we've seen from clock. A lot of the time now, some have just won players two to three players around the ball, and that pressure will end the ball back, as much as they're actually making challenges. Jamie, to follow up on that, Gary, sorry, Jamie, we were talking about Gary, and he was like, "Gary in my head," he was the best choice Jamie, we had. You let it get out. Leave it to me. To follow up on that though, there's so, there appears to be so much inconsistency in the refereeing now, as a result of, I think, you know, partly it's due to the diving and everything else, but it seems from game to game to game, there's so much inconsistency. Can you kind of comment on that, and what effect that has on the defenders? I mean, it's difficult because it's something that we've been talking about, forever, I think we're all speaking about that inconsistency of refereeing one, referee gives it one, but I think like everything in life, you all see things slightly differently. And I have some sympathy with the referee, I think it's an eight-minute help, really, to be honest, and I think it's not active, referee's getting worse, I think the technology's getting better at the problem, so we can highlight things that maybe that's easy, maybe not seen or that I have the same things from, and things happen so quickly. And sometimes when you're being done, I think, trial does influence them, maybe the teams that referee does influence them as well, the pressure in saying, "engage what it stays." So I think it's something that, you know, we don't like it, we probably don't have to accept, because I don't know how it changed, you know, the referee is a professional now, and we haven't even been able to talk, and we try and get as close to a unanimous decision as possible, but I don't think everyone would be the case. Do you think that we're going to see more technology then in the future, perhaps video replay, something like that? I mean, I always think football is the hands of the sport in terms of technology, and I think, you know, we're the biggest, we're the biggest sport, we're the biggest, we're the biggest game, why aren't we the front numbers? But I think the goal and technology is being fantastic. I think what it should be doing is very slowly, I'm very short of, what can we do next? And for me, the one, I think the really big one is, that wouldn't really affect the referee so much is the, it's whether the shot was a penalty or a free kick, because I think the referee is blown for a foul, it's his decision, he thinks it's a foul, but the game's then stopped, right, is it inside or outside the box? That's a huge difference between I'm on a penalty or a free kick, and I can be game stopped anyway for 30 seconds while you're putting a wall together, or you get ready for a penalty, whatever it may be. And someone could just be in the year of the referee, exactly inside the box, that was just outside, and I just think that would be a good thing, because I think that that's, that's the issue, hadn't gained that, in terms of whether something's a penalty or a free kick, a fun kick, that's a huge decision, and I think it's very, very difficult for the referee to get that right, if the speed, the players are going, where the tech challenge is being made, where people fall, how far forward before, and I think it's a very good one to get right, and I think we could be held with that. Adam Clark has asked, obviously with the rise of young defenders like John Stones and Le Porte in Spain, does it make sense to spend big money on young defenders who are still learning their craft when it's so difficult to assess their individual impact? So is it worth spending big money on young defenders that have been hyped up? I think it is, I think with any player, there's a patient who will be on board, you think how long he can have, I think how long Manchester United have been all further than four, and the service he gives the club, you think people are talking about say if he falls in the middle of the John Stones, there's an awful lot of money, and he is a young defender, but I think if he gets to the level where people think he can eventually get to, it'd be actually bad, and really if you could have him for your whole, so is that a 10 or 12 year spin, take your club, it ends up being valued for money, of course you've got to perform and get there, and that's what Rio Ferdinand did, when he went to Manchester United, but I think in things like younger players, it just means you haven't for longer, now of course it's produced the goods, and as a young player you've got to expect up and down, I think that's why it was right, John Stones stayed there ever, and I thought that was probably a little bit too young to go to Chelsea, because I know myself may have experiences as a young defender, like young goalkeepers, when you make mistakes, you'll cost the team points and goals, and you've got fingers pulling that year, you get to criticism, as he's had this season, but I think it's better, he's had that criticism this season at Everton, whether it's not as much on the back page, he's not as much in the forefront of people's tongues, because it's not cost, and maybe Chelsea wanted the Champions League, or maybe a league tight law, whatever it may be, I think it's probably better for him to be in Everton, and maybe even another 12 months there as well, and then eventually make that move at 23-24. John, Jamie, I've got to follow up for that. Do you feel that modern football has actually put too much of a good analogy we use here in the States? It's too much of a microwave society instead of a crockpot society, where we expect too much from young players too soon, instead of letting things kind of settle and give them more time, and defense is a position where you can have a great game for 89 minutes and one mistake, and all of a sudden people think it's a terrible performance. Do you think that modern football has put too much of a microscope on these young players, and especially when you factor in the money that's spent and the potential that people put on these players, where we're actually marginalizing a generation of young defenders by doing so, or do you feel criticism is fair and balanced in your experience? No, no, I agree. I agree with you. I think we do probably expect too much to young now, and also the other way, when we do well, we probably brought them up too much, and probably I may be guilty from that when you're in the need, to story someone's new kid on the block, Deli Ali's there as well, at the other end of the pitch. But I never felt really like a proper player for about 20-24, physically as well, I could compete with those real, older professors who have been playing the progression on the Premier League level, you know, 10 or 12 years, before you feel like a kid in a man's game at times, and that's what I look like when I see John Stones, you see physically you feel that I've fell out, and I probably two or two years when you physically compete, and in my time, hopefully you've gained that experience as well mentally, obviously technically as well, you improved as a player, and then you're getting finished after 20-24, that's why I always feel it's right, to really start really making children on players then where you think they're going to go, of course, you can still improve and get better as you get older, but I think those are the early years, they're not going to be in the years, really, and obviously the test plays, they make less mistakes, of course, they do, but not to have with a player, you are, you will make mistakes, I think it's important, don't forget that, and so for me, it wasn't until probably 2001, when we won a few trophies, but Liverpool, I felt I'd really, really arrived, and I was a proper player at the age of 23. Jamie, you talk about this proper player, what would be one or two pieces of advice you would give a young footballer to really look at themselves and conduct themselves as a professional, both on and off the pitch, I think so much of what we see in the media we see from afar is what they do wrong, and we don't really notice what they do well, what's one thing you could instill or tell people who are in an academy setting or aspiring to be professional players to look after themselves as professionals. Well, I think now it's as important off the pitch, as on the pitch, I think, whatever you think of it, you know, some people, you know, big unsalted media, some people don't say if you like it, but I think that's put extra scrutiny now on everyone, and especially players, and I think the sort of off the field stuff that's in culture, I think that's gone now, but if you can see the situation, Jacqueline, she finds himself from as a young player, that he's been rehabilitating, getting back in one night house or whatever he's got involved in now, so I think basically for players now, it's got to the stage, and it was just starting as maybe I was playing as well, you can't, you can't afford one mistake off the pitch, or you're listening, of course, you understand the young people, but it will get started, it will get seen, and I think now you've got to live your life, yeah, basically, I mean, something you have to say to me, you should live for football, not use football to live, and I think that's a additive now, especially in young players, you've got to see it, and be also professional, to get the most out of your body, and what you see, and I think the way it begins going now, and it'll move on again, going a different direction, is what you can crop expectations, players will put your team on what's best, this is the way it's going that way, it's not just a little bit still for players, it's definitely a whole player, you've got to put a shift in every single player, and even if you are a center forward, look at Daniel's story, he's not playing regular for Liverpool, because I think he can crop still in field, he's putting actually enough into the game, that can be the only reason, because he's such a gifted footballer, and I think you've got to get the most out of your body physically, I think that's what people are doing now, we're getting pushed to the extreme, and I think as a young player now, the way you'll have to get yourself at the pitches is almost as important as your training, you know, improving and training, because of what's required on a full pitch, so I think for any young player now coming through, it's looking after yourself, now it's massive, and you can have a big effect on your career. Jamie, I've got one question for you, obviously, there's a rise in the last sort of 10 years in high pressing, really pushing out, and trying to press the ball and win it closer to the opposition's goal, but what effect has that had on the centre backs, how has the centre backs role changed, and has it become harder because of that, because you've got players that are sometimes leaving their position, maybe playing higher up the pitch, and you're perhaps also forced then to play higher up the pitch, how do you think that's changing, has it got harder because of that defending? But I think what the other thing is, whatever you press, whatever you do, you can't be compact, a lot of my teams, GRF, we wouldn't really push as high up as other teams, we make it very difficult for teams, we'll be trying to play cancer class, especially when in Europe, but if your team is pressing, how are you going to push up behind, and what it'll do is, you'll win a lot of balls, then you probably have less than you send them to do, but what you will find is that the actual difference that you do, maybe chasing into a corner fight, because if your pressing team's high, more often than not, we'll play the ball along, and trying to entertain people who win behind you, so that's what you're going to have to do, so you may actually send it to a case, and maybe when you see bounce along, it'll be fun, or not actually be fun, and a lot of the time it comes to attacks and long balls all the time, and maybe to be true, and not to be risky, but you have to be able to be three or four of them again, whereas they're never under pressure, whereas we were at times, we'd go away in Europe, and you'd be in the pressure for 90 minutes, and you'd be able to keep an appealing sheet, maybe be found in the idea box, but you'd be under constant pressure, it's not a different type, if you may be found less, but it's probably more dangerous, a 1v1, a lot of space behind, and there are a couple of differences. So would you say pace is more important for a centre back today than it was 15 years ago? Well the thing, if you're playing for one of the top teams, because that's the situation you're going to be in, but I'd always go back to understanding the game, and reading the game, being the most important, and if you've got pace, I like that, you know, you're not going to be afraid, and that's why you're one of the best defenders out there, because you've read the game fantastic, you've only got great pace, but I'd always come back to be understanding the game, and positional playing the game, and I think that's a great set star. Yeah, so we obviously started this podcast, and it was actually based on one of John's articles, which was called The Lost Art of Defending, and how defending has changed, and so fundamentally to kind of wrap up and to take it to the end, it's, would you say then that the standards, Jamie, of defending have gone down in the era, or that the attributes that you need, that the game has just changed, and defenders, because they, as you say, they can't show their one-on-one, a full-back can't show their one-on-one capabilities of sending a guide down the line anymore, the centre-back can't sit on the edge of the box, and defend his box for, you know, for 90 minutes away from home in Europe. Do you think then that the standards haven't necessarily dropped, but that the game has just changed? I think that's a great point you made, and I think we're asking, as the game goes forward, we're always asking for people to stretch themselves, we want more from a centre-back, we want to just defend, we want to be able to play on the ball, we're all concerned to how you want to play, I mean, at the end of the end of the game, take the game's change, and I think it has to, of course, and I've said before, by a stone, in a big, big fact in that, we go through the extreme of looking at Sydney only, at the Atletico Major League, and you think that the role, like, prime of guardians, is for that team, you know, that's that type of defender, and so on, where we defend, if you defend the edge of your box, and we used to still call them a great defender, and they can still be successful, a minute away from them in a champion league, and a leader, probably easier, or could win, do the same again, this is, I think it all boils down to what your manager's sort of principles are, and what he wants from his team, and everyone's different, but there's no doubt in this moment that probably an exception to the rule, and what you're asking a lot from defenders is, I don't know what you said, it's not so much, we're not producing them, but that's not different things, but then it is that right, if you call it, if you ask them if you defend, it's the two things that they're not capable of, and I go back to Leicester, that's been a success of their season, the first round of the year, he's not asking his defenders to do things that they can't do, I think as a manager, you can have your ideas, and how you want your team to play, but it's probably based around the players you have in your squad. Andrew, anything else from you, anything for Jamie? Well, I mean, I'm just, I'm pleased for the last Arab Jamie, that you've talked about the different roles within the defence, because the one thing that occurred to me when we were preparing for this was when you say the lost art of defending, I would guess most people's instincts would run to centre-base, but I'm pleased that you have addressed the full-backs role too, and how it's changed. Do you, just one middle thing I was, I was going to finish with, the popularity of the centre-back role, is it likely to, is it likely to come back, do you you think that people will have their cult heroes, you know, the people follow razor radically, loved his passion, and they felt like there was, fans felt like there was a connection there, do you think they're going to be characters like, I've used Razor as an example, will there be more centre-backs like him, or do you think that's it, do you think that's the last we've seen of that breed of defender? I think it looks like it's going up the game a bit, I think in anything in the game, something always comes back, people are telling them a few years ago, 4-4-4-2 was dead, you know, that makes it, you know, patience against three, the backs come back, and that's probably used as well, so in terms of individual players, I think you will see that, the result of a front-two was gone, and that's probably used, that seems to have come back, I think everything comes back in football, but I do think we are going away from that sort of cult hero, the centre-back, who just wins everything in the air, doesn't do nothing else, you know, wacks a few, in the 19 minutes, they kind of have like that, you know what I mean, that type of figure, because we are looking for different things in centre-backs, and it's okay me saying I lost the answer to defend them, but I think we have to find that balance between getting it back, but I think it's only going one way and going more towards that way, then it is sort of going back to those types of figures that you don't try to raise your rudder. Jim, anything from you? Yeah, as a, you know, first I want to obviously thank you for coming on with us today, but as a pundit, what do you make of the prospects next year of having, you know, these defensive managers coming into the league like Conte, and perhaps Mourinho coming back with Manchester United, if that happens, and the influence that some of these defensive-minded coaches might have on the league itself, what do you think that would do for the league next year? Well, I've hope to improve our performances in Europe, because I think a lot of our performances in Europe, the reason it's not being an adequate in office, because authentically we haven't been good enough, and I think that I go back to that one, but all the teams are doing really well, you know, ourselves, Manchester United, Chelsea at the time, really challenging the Champions League, a lot of what was built on, you know, our ability to go away from home, keep it coming in chief and defend properly, and go somewhere and get a job, and it was, you know, the Liverpool team, as I mentioned, the other side, you can give Kavaleo and John Terry visit in Fayden, and two great partnerships, and a centre pass, and I think a lot of it comes down to that, so you know, defensively, man, if you still maybe meet top defenders, I'm looking at Conte, probably doing some of the defensive defenders just there, as good as anyone at the moment. John, anything from you? No, I just want to thank Jamie for coming on, I think it's been, I've learned a lot, and he grew up watching him play in kind of a footballing idol for me, so it's been fun. Yeah, great. Thanks, Sean. Yeah, so yeah, thanks, thanks to Jim, for joining us, John, for joining us, Andrew, and of course, Jamie, do check out Jamie's Foundation, the JamieCarraga23.co.uk, that did some great work around, and be sure to check out Jamie on Twitter @Carraga23. You'll find the podcast on dswpt.co, it'll be on SoundCloud and iTunes as well, so thanks very much for listening, everyone. Until next time, take care.