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Mon, Jun 24: The Sports Lunatics: Remembering Willie Mays & Reggie Jackson Talks Racism In Baseball
I arrived in New York City on a Friday at four o'clock scared to death with three bats in my Low briefcase my glove. I didn't have a uniform. I didn't have a hat Leo said to me son as long as I'm managing you are my son of field. You do not have to hit Just go out and catch the ball and from those words from Leo DeRosa I think gave me a little courage and I went on from there There's a long drive straight back in the field way back back it is Just walk this drive to a speed or a catch what cost is that an optical illusion to a lot of people may have sent it into the left There's a bit to Willie a baseball legend an American icon Willie Mays the say hey kid was a true giant of his time Born in Westfield, Alabama in 1931 Mays began displaying his athletic prowess at an early age Before he even graduated high school. He was playing center field for the Birmingham Black Barons of the Negro leagues 1951 Mays emerged as a rising star for the then New York Giants He won rookie of the year honors just four years after baseball's color barrier had been broken For the next 23 seasons his achievements would cement his title as one of the greatest players to ever play the game In New York, he dazzled crowds at the photographs and led the team to a World Series championship His charisma and joyfulness With an indelible mark on our hearts. He leaves us with a lasting reminder To work hard and find joy in this great game and this extraordinary life Say hey Willie Mays the best there ever was Hello and welcome to a special edition of the sports lunatics who are the sports lunatics Well, we're just two regular guys who love sports history. Hi. I'm Sean Levine and Halifax Nova Scotia And I'm Howie Mooney in Barry, Ontario And today Howie we salute and honor perhaps the greatest baseball player that ever lived and that was the great Willie Mays who we lost recently at the age of 93 one of the all-time greats if not the greatest player of all time certainly in the top three and The tributes have been pouring in all week and it was ironic and we will get into this later in the show Of course a celebration of where he started in the Negro leagues and out of that broadcast We heard some stories from Reggie Jackson who we will talk about and how incredible and pointed and things that our Past generations may have taken for granted But it is still very real for those that suffered so much injustice Coming through the ranks of baseball to become a major league player But Howie let's start with of course Willie Mays We heard this stirring tribute from John Miller the voice of the San Francisco Giants in terms of Willie Mays What did Willie Mays mean to you? Of course, I am younger. I never got to see Willie play, but you did I Guess if anyone is in your shoes, Shawnee, if they're too young to know or remember Willie Mays Find Ken Burns baseball and go to the 50s The 50s they talk a lot about New York and how it was the capital of baseball Willie Mays played for the New York Giants in the 50s when they moved to San Francisco. Of course, he continued to play for the Giants but there's there's a great great segment in that episode about Willie Mays and You said it off the top Shawnee. He was probably one of the best players ever in baseball history They talk about five-tool players, but Willie Mays probably was a six-tool player in that yes, he could he could run he could hit he could hit for power he could throw he could do everything, but he also had baseball instincts on top of those five tools and His instincts were incredible and You know a lot of people this week have been talking about the game in 1954 Against Cleveland in the World Series and the catch that he made off Vic Wertz There's a drive the left. It's well hit And I mean that that illustrates so much of what Willie Mays was all about The way that he's going back it's the polo ground So he is he has the the the fortune of being able to run a long way to get to the ball but Who else could have gotten to that ball other than Willie Mays? I don't think anybody could have gotten to that ball and and that's what they said at the time the only guy that that could have could have hit a ball that far or could have caught a ball that far was Was was Willie Mays and the only guy that could hit a ball that far was the guy who caught it was Willie Mays as well and the he had to tell According to people who saw him play and if he hit his glove like this twice With his fist as he was running He knew he was gonna catch the ball and if you watch that if you watch that highlight over and over and over again You'll see him Hitting his backing his glove twice as he's running and he's got the ball. He's eyeing the ball He's tracking the ball over his shoulder and then he makes the catch does the basket catch turns around and fires it in and as so many people said It wasn't the catch. It was the throw after the catch because that the the Indians were threatening at that time and nobody could move because they had to wait to see if he caught the ball And then he got the ball in so fast that nobody could tag up and get again and advance a base Of course at year 1954 he was the NL MVP he won that award twice 54 and 65 and how he you you brought up the six-tool player What was just as impressive as his hitting was his fielding? He was a 12-time global gold glove Award winner from 1957 to 1968. He was also the batting champion. By the way in 54 Just an incredible I've seen stats Now that we were big into analytics in this day and age where they literally have gone back into those years in the fifties of Really his dominance in baseball and just how dominant a player he was and he never won the MVP in a lot of those years But if they as they pointed out in this article on ESPN calm If they took all the information that they have accessible to them now and they applied it back then He may have been an MVP seven eight nine times. That's how great he was Yeah, all anybody had back then was their eyes to judge players with they didn't have any of the numbers that we have today the analytics numbers and I'm not I'm not trying to be an analytics pumper or anything like that because I'm not an analytics guy either, but yeah He could have been he could have been and it should have been more selected as the MVP in the National League than he was, but I mean the way things were the way things are it all kind of it all kind of Falls into place when you when you study everything else that is societally as well as baseball II So NL home run leader four times NL stolen base leader for consecutive years 56 to 59 24 time all star which is tied for second most in the history of baseball But what is fascinating how he is that he missed two years because of service in the military and those two years May have projection wise and that's what a lot of people talked about this week He may have been the home run king by when it was all said and down done because it took away Approximately 80 to 100 home runs just based on the statistics of where he was hitting in that time of his career It is truly remarkable What could have been as well like and and will he said it himself? I I'm gonna play this clip and This was I believe in the 90s where this clip was Where he talked about how everybody referenced him as the greatest living baseball player Well, if you the greatest ball player, you just say you're the greatest ball player rather not the living ball player What good is that? I I I heard that when I first heard it. I don't know if you were around when I first heard I said wait a minute, you know, you mean I gotta be passed away before you guys give you credit for doing something How we he did not like being called the greatest living baseball player He was the greatest baseball player. Yeah, and that and that to me is Part of I'm not gonna say an injustice because again, you know I wasn't in the 20s and and in 30s and 40s and saw some of the great players that played or even before then You brought up a great point at the start of the broadcast in terms of Ken Burns baseball. I Truly think every single father grandfather should be sitting down with their grandkids and Talk about and play that 10 or 11 part series now that Ken Burns has put out I've actually talked to a many of my friends this week about that just like if you want a true Sort of sense of what this week was about currently Go back and watch Ken Burns baseball about the Negro leagues about Willie mays Just about the history that we don't know about That well, but it was documented to me and that was really my first taste of just some of the social Situations that a lot of these guys had to deal with Well, there was a quote that was posted a few times this week from Willie mays He said I wasn't the best hitter of my time Ted Williams was I wasn't the best base stealer of my time Morey wills was you know, and he listed all these different things and who was better at hit at them than he was but overall he did everything as Well as anybody as you said four times stolen base leader in a row and He he had the speed he had the skills and he had the sense up here to be able to read Everything and react off of it and that that is a big part of base stealing as well But as you said to Sean He hit 660 home runs in his career those two years and if anybody wants to check it out Please do go to the sports lunatics.com. I wrote a piece a couple of months ago about Willie mays and It's about one particular incident that occurred. I think was in about 66 in San Francisco And I mean you think about it Everything that he went through and Rich Eisen said it well, too. He says we saw in what Reggie said Why there was a Negro leagues of baseball, you know, because black players couldn't play They weren't allowed to play in Major League Baseball and so you had the Negro leagues and then when baseball was integrated Yeah, Jackie Robbins took a lot of crap from people that it was just awful Willie mays took a lot of crap from people that was awful But on that day in nineteen I think it was nineteen sixty six. I my memories and going by memory and that's not always reliable but He there were a couple of fans sitting along the first baseline by his dugout and they were giving it to him the whole game and finally He snapped and would add them and With all of it that he had gone through Through his career at that point He's probably heard everything but they must have said something that that really really ticked him off because and they wouldn't admit it either But anyway, please go to the sports lunatics comm find that piece to find any of the other pieces that that we have in there We got video. We've got written stuff. We got all kind of audio. We got all kinds of stuff in there for you to listen to Of course, he broke into baseball making his professional debut with the Birmingham black barons of the Negro League in 1948 The Giants signed him and that would be the New York Giants again where baseball was king and In 1950 and burst onto the scene in 51 and he won the rookie of the year as well after hitting 20 home runs in his rookie season and then we've listed all his historical achievements and You know winning the 54 World Series the Giants did get back to the 62 World Series but fell to the Yankees and Then he was traded to the New York Mets and we'll talk about that a little bit Until his retirement in the 70s and he played in the 1973 World Series where the Mets Bell to the Baunted Oakland A's at that time. He hits a home run in his New York Mets debut So, you know, which of course put a charge into the crowd. It's it's a great clip There's a drive to the left. It's well hit That's the willy maze that I last remember seeing With my own eyes was was when he played for the Mets and and it was kind of sad because he had he was Up there in age at that point and he didn't he didn't have the gifts that he had when he was younger I mean none of us do of course, but I wanted to mention because you were talking about when he played in Birmingham and the Red Sox double-A affiliate was in Birmingham as well and they shared the same field and so you had the Red Sox basically getting first dibs on Willie mays, but because the owners and The people of upper management were still stuck in Jim Crow days. They did not want to have a black player on their team and There was interest from a lot of other teams as well, but Boston had made the deal Somebody else had made one of the guys involved made the deal had to get approval from from the owners and from upper Management and they would not approve it and it was forty five hundred dollars. They were going to pay the black barons For Willie mays. It had all been agreed to he was going to go except for the lack of Approval at the top and can you imagine Ted Williams and Willie mays in the same outfield just Beside each other running around Fenway Park. I mean they would have they would have owned the American League, but because of racism it didn't happen and This was the norm back then howie that that was something that was made very evident Again this week with a lot of the conversations around the Negro League game that they had and celebration and there were so many guys who had these glimpses of opportunities that were literally ripped away from them because of the racist nature not only of the owners But even their own teammates like and fans of course wherever they went Because owners were scared there'd be a backlash if they Brought in a Negro play Negro League player or or or a black man. That was the reality back then That's why you know, we have heard the stories Where Canada was a bit of a safe haven for some of these players coming up here and playing and of course The most famous being Jackie Robinson, which we have showcased many times on this program But you know, it was damn sad to listen to a lot of the conversation this week mostly by white men By the way, you were endless. I'd like to transition to Reggie Jackson might have been one of the rawest Honest clips I have seen in years howie of telling it like it is about his life and about his struggles dealing with racism as he was trying to break into baseball in you know, the late 50s early 60s and Coming back to Birmingham Where let's be honest. It was showcased as a celebration of the Negro leagues It was a celebration of the living Negro League players it was a celebration of the Enormous superstars that came from the Negro leagues to Major League Baseball and it was the shiny happy Feeling it was amazing to watch But then they had Reggie Jackson on the set and this is what he said coming back here is not easy The racism that I played here when I played here The the difficulty of going through different places where we traveled Fortunately, I had a manager and I had players on the team that helped me get through it But I wouldn't wish it on anybody people said to me today I spoke and they said you think you're a better person You think you you you won when you played here and conquered I said, you know I would never want it to do it. We want to do it again. I Walked into restaurants and they would point at me and said and he can't eat here. I Would go to a hotel and they said you can't stay here We went to Charlie Finley's country club for a welcome home dinner and they pointed me out with the N word He can't come in here Finley marks the whole team out Finally they let me in there. He said we're gonna go to the diner and eat hamburgers or go where we're wanted Unfortunately, I had a manager and Johnny McNamara that if I couldn't eat If I couldn't thank you if I couldn't eat in the place nobody would eat we'd get food to travel If I couldn't stay in a hotel They'd drive to the next hotel and find a place where I could stay had it not been for Raleigh fingers Johnny McNamara Dave Duncan Joe and Sharon Rudy. I slept on their couch three four nights a week For about a took month and a half Finally they were threatened that they would burn our apartment complex down unless I got out. I Wouldn't wish it on anyone the year I came here Bull Connor was the sheriff the year before and they took base by the league baseball out of here because in 1963 the Klan murdered four black girls children in 11 12 14 years old at a church here and never got indicted It it was there from the Klan life magazine did a story on them Like you were being honored It I wouldn't wish it on anyone at the same time had it not been for my white friends Had it not been for a white manager and Rudy fingers and Duncan and Lee Myers I would have never made it. I was too physically violent I was ready to physically fight some I'd have got killed here because I'd have beat someone's ass And they ought you to saw me in an oak tree somewhere when I saw this clip howie. I was literally in chills because that hit the the dart on the bullseye in the middle of This was everything that was wrong and It's funny how We want to gloss over that Type of information. He lived it if you see the prime video Special on Reggie Jackson and I please go and check it out He brought it up as well like it was not easy for him. It was not easy for Thousands of baseball players because of the color of their skin In that quote he talks about going into restaurants going into hotels going into the country club where Charlie Finley was a Member and and and being pointed out as the N word and you know Getting kicked out or or the whole team leaving with him basically because if they don't want him they don't want us They would all leave But Kurt Flood in Ken Burns bit Ken Burns baseball again. I bring this up again Kurt Flood and his struggle and his They played a double header and everybody threw their their uniforms into a pile in the middle to get washed and cleaned for the second game and An equipment guy comes in with a stick with a nail in the end of it and picks Kurt Flood's uniform out Carefully and and so it wouldn't you know touch the other guy's uniforms and he sent them off to the colored cleaners so that you know they wouldn't they wouldn't be touching each other in the in the washing machine or in the dryer and That's that is I mean for anybody that denies racism and I mean it exists it exists today and Reggie Jackson told it exactly like it was and there are many people today if you look all over social media There are people who just who were distressed that he talked about this on on TV I'm sure that the the producers and the people behind the scenes at Fox were surprised by what Reggie said or the fact that he said it but the fact that Racism existed racism Was part of baseball it exists today It's all over the place today you go on you go on social media and it still exists today There are people out there who are still racists. It's still there And the people who were distressed the most are people that I'm afraid might might be the ones who don't want to know Don't want anyone to know that racism still exists, but it does and it's it's a sad fact even in 2024 Well, there are people in society that want to whitewash history. Yep, and when it doesn't suit their cause That's what they do. Look at what happened when the Negro these statistics were now the same level as majorly baseball Statistics, and we just talked about it a couple of weeks ago the the comments that we read that were vicious racist and just just unbelievably inappropriate and Even when Reggie this was what he went through. Yeah, this is what his life was like Yeah, and it wasn't just him he was talking also on the behalf of other baseball players Because you heard the same stories from them. Yep You know, Willie Mays would have gone through that. Hey Garren did go through that Especially when he's trying to be break the greatest baseball record in existence and He would get these death threats. I I've told you this story before Shawnee, and I've told it on on our show as well 1974 I was 14 years old and I was playing on a team in a hockey tournament down outside of Philadelphia and before the first game they played the national anthems of both teams and The house that I was building it in for that weekend the Saturday morning the lady of the house is making breakfast and And she says you Canadians have such a lovely national anthem I'll bet you all enjoy singing it and I said something like the only place I really hear them singing it is is before the games is in in Montreal and and she comes back with Do you have a problem with the French like we have with the blacks, and I mean I was just I was Immediately thrown I mean how do what the heck do I say to that? What the heck do I a 14 year old kid? What do I say to that? You know that won't get me kicked out of the house? And made to stay somewhere else I just Yeah, anyway, I just don't know what else to say Shawnee. I always think a common sense and and these Guys Jackie Robinson's the Willie Mays There were hundreds of them players They had to take it. Mm-hmm They couldn't fight back now some did but then they were either You know exiled from the game or there were other issues that would come up But to be successful They had to always look the other way You know, and I think Reggie sort of alluded to that as well. It's like He had to take this stuff The part that was chilling actually was the part where he stayed with the Rudy's Joe Rudy a teammate at the A's in in Oakland Where they were getting death threats that they were gonna burn their apart like their house or their apartment down? Yeah, because Reggie Jackson a Black man was living with them for a month or two while he was getting settled in Oakland That's scary. Yeah, you know what it's repugnant. It's disgusting. It's awful. It's but I Just don't want to talk about baseball like it's happening hockey. It's happening football. You know, it is still it is still a A storyline now in a lot of soccer matches Yep, where and it has been for a while and it has been for a while But it's really started to rear its ugly head now. I don't remember it being as As front-page news as it is now Covering sports for as long as I did behind the scenes Now again because of social media and everything that you can see and hear That's the other thing now you can hear some of the threats and see what's happening when it was sort of tucked away years ago have we You know, that's what I was sort of I'm struggling with after that broadcast. It's like how far have we come? I was born in 1960. We got cable in 1967 we were able to watch American channels and you know at that time I still remember watching Walter Cronkite on the CBS News and They cut away two stories in the South where Black people were having fire hoses and dogs Put on them. I remember working with a friend or working with a guy here in Toronto Mike Marson who was the second black player in the NHL and he would tell me about the death threats that he would receive the things That he would he would hear yelled at him in arenas as he was coming off the ice the the unnecessary stoppages by police in his car, you know things like that because he was playing in Washington and he and Living in in Washington and living around Virginia Northern Virginia around there. That was still the South at that time and Black man, you know in a nice car. Well, if you must have stolen it, you know something like that I remember reading about cookie Gilchrist when he played for the Toronto when he played in Canada football in Canada and a woman Shaking his hand and then and then asking if she could if she had to wipe off the black, you know Stuff like that and it's it's not just It's happening. It didn't just happen in the States. It's not just happening in the States It exists here in Canada as well I remember Peter Worrell when he played for the whole Olympics which leader became the Gatineau Olympics and he would go to some arenas in Quebec and If you know anything about Quebec There is an element there that is is pure land means pure the pure wool the pure white, you know And people would throw bananas onto the ice When he would come on the ice and play Wayne Simmons just went, you know went through it a few years ago Having a banana peel thrown at him on a penalty shot. Yeah, and that's what I'm saying It's around the world because soccer is yeah, they got a massive problem right now. Yeah PR that way And just things that have been going on. It was a great celebration of Willie Mays's life Yes, which I loved but then there was the Reggie realism Mm-hmm, which I did love too because I'm glad somebody spoke out. Oh, I was I was great I it was great that that he said it I was kind of shocked at how visceral the reaction against him was of course on social media But I mean I shouldn't be shocked I guess but I was I thought this is 2024. Come on people When Willie Mays, you know played and in retired There was a huge percentage of african-american players Playing or black ball players playing in major league baseball. That is dwindled over the years And i'm just curious With everything that major league baseball has done this year is that To entice younger generations Of of boys and girls to play baseball like i'm just fascinated Why now It's long overdue But it just suddenly it's it's it's I'm wondering if there's a connection to that Major league baseball has been trying for a while now to introduce or reintroduce baseball to black kids black youth to try to get more black players First of all interested in baseball secondly up to the the major league level and I'm just looking at a stat here. It says The percentage of black players on mlb opening day rosters was essentially static this year 6 percent in 2024 Versus 6.2 percent in 2023 6.0 percent I to me that's that's shocking But it does tell me as well that It's baseball to get to the major leagues base. It's hard in baseball and I I mean I Saw it. I worked in triple a you know doing the baseball games in Ottawa Getting from a to double a to triple a to to the majors. It's a hard road That's why you had tom brady saying i'm not going to play baseball. I'm going to go play football That's why you have other guys saying i'm not going to play baseball when I can play basketball or I can go play I can do something else and that's that I think is the is the key to everything if you if a player has a choice And they can do something else instead of taking six seven eight years to try to get to the majors If they can get going through university on a free ride And then play football say They'll do that or play basketball say in university and then make it to the nba They'll do that instead Instead of playing instead of having to work their butts off just to get to triple a or to To get to the majors. It's it's it's hard to get there And so then when you have guys who have the chance to do other things they will probably choose the other things Great perspective. I'm going to go one further. I would add that in terms of the brand ESPN only talks about two sports and only two sports and that's uh the mba Well now the wmba and nfl they don't talk major league baseball Most places do not talk major league baseball anymore locally. Yes but not nationally And you don't see major league baseball players getting big endorsement deals Not in the united states You know shohay otani a little different in japan, but other than that They do not get indoor big massive endorsement deals And that is something that's part of this as well is They're not on ESPN every night It's not like it used to be 20 25 years ago where you would lead Even even in this day when there's not You know, I know we've got You know stanley cup and mba finals and that but come july It's still never a lead story as much as it used to be Baseball is not as hot And they've done a terrible job marketing the sport And it goes to what's happening, you know with the black youth in america This has been ongoing. This isn't just new It has been dwindling for years Uh, which should be alarming for major league baseball Well, it's it's something that as you said It's been going on for years and years and years and it's not just with black youth but baseball used to be america's pastime baseball used to be the The game that everyone loved and it was eclipsed of course by the nfl Uh a while ago and the nfl has become monolithic where as major league baseball has kind of turned inward and Now baseball is a local game. It's a game that that in Cincinnati everyone watches the reds But they don't watch there's no nbc game of the week anymore like there used to be, you know Uh, now there is there the games on fox on sunday nights or saturday ESPN on sunday nights and saturday nights. There's a game on fox, but It's not You're right. It's not like it used to be it's not like a time when when people would stand outside Cabs and and listen to the radio and and to find out what the world series scores were right, you know Or or stand outside of store windows and watch the tv so they can see what the score of the game was It's not like like that anymore and I find even even in toronto now You know the stanley cup is on into june Which is ridiculous that the game that they're still playing hockey at the end of june But you know, nobody's talking about the blue jays right now everybody's talking about the oilers and and the And the and the panthers and what's going on there as opposed to Uh, what's happening with in toronto because I mean the blue jays are not good But I mean it's like that in every city now in new york. It's the Mets or the Yankees, uh, you know in in uh in seattle, it's the it's the it's the mariners and uh, but It's not baseball is not all encompassing the way it used to be and I know that everything cyclical at one time horse racing was the sport everybody watched Boxing was the sport everybody watched and paid attention to We don't hear anything about horse racing or boxing anymore and I I would hate I would hate for that to happen to baseball I agree with you how we were running out of time, uh on this portion, but it is timely. We've talked about reggie jaxon And you have actually started writing a series About mr. october. I didn't mean for it to become a series I I just I thought I'd do 5 000 words and now it's i'm up about 22 000 so i'm breaking it up into chunks But it's all about reggie and I mean He he is a fragile superstar Uh, he he would pick fights not pick fights, but he would just engage controversy it seemed wherever he went when he was in oakland He fought bill north and he fought other teammates when he got to uh, well you had teammates say to things like darryl knoll said There's not enough mustard in the world to cover that hot dog, you know, uh, when he got to new york Of course he and thermon months and never saw i do i once uh as soon as he got there it was like Uh, when he went to muntry all courted him hard and they offered a lot more money than the Yankees did when he left the aurels in 76 and He seemed to show up and and and like it was a big party in muntry all and didn't take it seriously Because I think all the time he knew where he wanted to go he wanted to go to new york He didn't get the money in new york that he would have gotten muntry all which was interesting But uh, he ended up in new york and he ended up with you know reggie bars and he ended up becoming mr. october And uh, I mean it was a wonderful wonderful thing But I think that what we saw this week from reggie Is what shaped him as a player and shaped him as a man And the ptsd that he suffered while playing in bermingham back in 1967 Was instilled in him and installed in him Throughout the rest of his of his career and and it made him want to just basically give everybody the figurative finger if you know what i'm saying Can't wait for it. It'll be on the sports lunatics.com And that is the perfect way to end this edition of the sports lunatics I'm shalavina heliphex no viscosha and i'm howie moonie and berry ontario And you are watching or listening to the sports lunatics check us out at the sports lunatics on youtube And on your favorite audio platform and ck dj fm 107.9 in autowa and if you don't if you're not living in autowa You can still listen to the shows on ck dj there online ck dj dot net Have a great sports day everybody