Coaching for Leaders - Talent Management | Leaders
690: How to Shift Behavior for Better Results, with Mitch Warner
Shifting behavior in a sustainable way requires us to change our mindset. In this episode, how self-deception gets in our way and how we can take the first step by seeing others as people. This is Coaching for Leaders Episode 600-90. Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential. Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders and I'm your host, Dave Stahoveak. Leaders are born. They're made and this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. Of course, as leaders so much of our work is about helping ourselves, others, and our organizations to improve results. And that means how we can do a better job of not only shifting our own behavior but also being able to shift the behavior of others. As so many of us have discovered how challenging that is and even more so when we don't have our mindset in the right place. Today, a conversation about how we can do better in order to improve results for all of us. I am so glad to welcome Mitch Warner to the show. He is a managing partner of the Arbenger Institute. The Arbenger Institute helps leaders transform their organizations by enabling the fundamental shift in mindset that leads to exceptional results. The Institute has authored three best-selling books. Leadership and self-deception was originally published in 2000 and is today one of the top 50 best-selling leadership books of all time. It's now in its fourth edition. Leadership and self-deception, the secret to transforming relationships and unleashing results. Mitch, what a pleasure to have you. Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much, Dave. I read leadership and self-deception over 20 years ago. And when I put the book down, my first thought was every leader should read this book. And for a while, I didn't hear much about the book, but it has taken on a life of its own over the years. And I'm so glad because the mindset, the shift in this book is so key for all of us. And one of the stories in the book is about Ignaz Semovise. It's from almost 200 years ago. And I think it's a very helpful starting point for thinking about this. Could you share a bit of his story? Oh, you bet. You know, in the book, we use that story as a metaphor to talk about the power and importance of mindset. Ignaz Semovise, he was a physician, an obstetrician in the mid-1800s in Vienna General Hospital. And he was working in one of the maternity wards where there was a very high mortality rate, literally one in ten mothers who gave birth in that ward died. And you can just imagine what that was like for him as a physician, particularly knowing that the other maternity ward in the hospital, the other section of that maternity ward, had a mortality rate that was only one in 50, which is still horrific, but much better than the one in ten in Semovise's unit of the ward. And the only difference was that the mothers there were attended by midwives. So they have physicians on the one side, midwives on the other, and this drastic difference in the mortality rate. And Semovise became obsessed with trying to figure out what was going on there. This is before germ theory. And so in order to kind of single out the factor that was at play, he decided he would standardize everything between these two wards. He standardized everything from diet to birthing positions to the ventilation, even the way the laundry was done, and nothing changed. And then in the middle of all this, he takes this four-month leave to visit another hospital, and when he comes back, he discovers that the mortality rate has dramatically improved in the physician side of the maternity ward. And gets to thinking about this, starts to explore this, and through the course of that exploration, he realizes that the fundamental difference is the fact that as physicians, they are doing quite a bit of work because this is a teaching and research hospital on cadavers. And then bringing what he called particles, there was, again, no germ theory at the time, but particles on their hands into the maternity ward, and this was infecting the mothers through the course of childbirth and creating this tragic mortality rate. And of course this haunted him, but he began to think about what would manage this problem. He put together this chlorine and lime solution and insisted that all the physicians use this to disinfect their hands before working with these mothers coming from the cadaver research. And one of the crazy and interesting parts of the story is that the physicians had massive resistance to this protocol. They didn't want to do it. They felt like it was denigrating to them as physicians in their elevated role. And so it took a massive amount of effort to just get them to wash their hands to disinfect, even though the evidence was clear that they were the primary carriers. And we use that that story to simply illustrate that there's so many problems, and some of them are deeply tragic and create severe challenges inside of our organizations, some in our families, some in our communities, that we complain about, that we worry about, and the reality is, in many cases, we actually are the carriers of the very problems that we're complaining about. And as the metaphor continues through the course of that story, so often we resist that possibility that we are actually contributing to the problems that we complain most about. I couldn't help but to go down a rabbit hole of the story about some of us after again coming back to it in the book. And it's a very depressing story because once he convinces all the doctors locally that this helps and the results are like unbelievably clear. He is ridiculed throughout the profession and dies in this horrible, awful way, in an insane asylum. It's just the power of us as human beings in a negative way, thinking about ourselves first, well, couldn't possibly meet me. It couldn't possibly be that I would have introduced anything that would have caused this. And it is, it comes down to this term that you and the Institute surface in the book, self deception. When you think about self deception, what is it? You know, what you said just a minute ago, Dave, is really important. This idea that it couldn't possibly be me because I don't have any intent to create those problems. Yeah. And of course, those physicians, they're resistant in part because they're doing everything that they can to help. And that's how we experience life so much of the time. We have good intent. We're trying to solve problems. We're showing up the best way we know how. But you can just think about the people in your life. Sometimes it's easier to see this in others than yourself. So we'll start there. But you think about the people in your life who are creating problems and seem to be unaware that they're creating the very problems that they're complaining about. Well, if that were the only issue, then life would be so easy. Work in our organizations, the work of a leader would be easy. It's just, well, tell me that I'm creating a problem, Dave, and I'll fix it. But that's not our experience. The experience is I'm creating a problem that I can't seem to see that I'm creating. And when you tell me that I'm creating a problem and that's brought to my awareness, I say, Oh, no, no, no, that I'm not creating that problem. I'll tell you who's creating that problem, though. And I can see with crystal clarity, the way that everybody else is contributing to this problem, I just can't see it in myself. And for some reason, I resist that. So this idea of self deception is the idea that I seem to be telling myself a lie. And I don't want to know that it's a lie. There was this interesting French philosopher, an existentialist, John Paul Sartre, and he said, I must know the truth so exactly. Because if I didn't, I wouldn't be able to hide it from myself so carefully. And I think about that in my life. I, I come up with all sorts of narratives and justifications, reasons why the things that are happening around me that I complain about are happening, that absolve me of any responsibility. And what's unfortunate is just like in that story with some of ice, if if you were to ask me in that moment, what do you want most? I'd say I want a solution, but I actually don't. I want more than anything for that fiction that I'm not responsible in any part of this to be maintained, even if it means that the problem is going to go on and on and on. I'd rather have that than surface the truth that I seem to be resisting. That's the phenomenon of self deception. And it sounds philosophical or esoteric, but it's not, it's just what's going on whenever there's dysfunction in organizations, whenever there's dysfunction between teams, whenever there's dysfunction in families, at the heart of it is self deception of both a blindness and a willful resistance to seeing the ways that I'm participating in the problems I'm complaining about. One of the stories in the book that just landed with me so much on what you were just saying on thinking about that inward versus outward mindset is there's an example of the book where one of the executives talks about working with one of her underperforming employees and giving her a large visibility presentation opportunity. And part of the intention behind that of her being honest with her herself, and she's reflected on that in the book, is I wanted to see her fail, because I want to then be justified for the path I was going down a feeling like this wasn't a very effective employee and not going down a good path. And then of course, by having that mindset, then not really supporting that person and getting ready for the presentation. And the word that gets surfaced in the book is collusion. And there's an element of like, as you start to go down that path of having that inward mindset, that both parties start to spiral down and you get that you get a very different result, don't you? Absolutely. Yeah. It's happened to me too many times to count this experience where I've chosen to see someone is less than a person. And then I begin to see the world only in ways that justify me, but also so I won't see, for example, this person's good qualities or potential. I'll just see all of those things that justify the judgment that I've made that this person isn't worthy to be seen as a person. But in addition to that, and this is where it gets scary, honestly, is in addition to not seeing anything, but what would validate my judgment, I end up provoking other people to be the very problems that I've complained about them being in the first place. So I'll try to make this real for your listeners through just a story. My oldest daughter, Faye, she's going to be graduating from high school next week. But when she was about 11 or 12, she started doing something that was really frustrating to me. She started talking back at the dinner table. And when she would do that, I would see her as disrespectful, a brat, not aware of the dynamics that we were trying to create as a family and all of those things. And I thought I was seeing her that way because of what she was doing. The truth is I made a choice to see her that way. If I was fully outward, I could see the behavior she was engaging in more truthfully. I could see it as a cry for help or feeling not seen or any number of things. And different behaviors would occur to me that would be really helpful, but I didn't see her that way. I saw her as disrespectful, as rude, as undermining my authority. And so out of that mindset, how did I behave? Well, I raised my voice and I punished her by grounding her or taking away privileges or whatever, or in some cases, I would just get really quiet. And I would kind of take the self-righteous, smarter path. You know, someone's got to be the adult in this situation. And it actually didn't matter, Dave, which behavior I ended up choosing, both of them were an outgrowth of seeing her as fundamentally a problem. And all of those behaviors, different styles, one was hard, one was soft. It didn't matter. They all communicated blame. They communicated to Faye. This is your fault. I didn't want to have to come home and raise my voice or send you to your room or whatever. This is your fault. And how do people respond to blame? Oh my word. Yeah, I had no idea I was disrupting our family culture like that. No, it's not like that. You know, you just get defensive and I can't believe he's doing that. And how do you suppose she sees a father who do does that as a, you know, a tyrant and someone's got to protect these four younger children from this man. Someone's got to stand up to him. So what does she do more or less of that very first thing I said I didn't like talking back at the dinner table? More. More, of course. That's crazy dynamic is that I don't see it in the moment. I'm self deceived. I'm telling myself a lie that this is all on her. But the truth is I'm provoking her. By the way, I'm seeing her and all the behaviors that I'm engaging in that are an outgrowth of how I see her, my mindset to do the very thing I say I don't like. And why would I ever do that? I would tell you I don't want her to do that. But the truth is I do. That's why we call it a collusion. As you said, we're actually in cahoots. It's not conflict, so to speak. Most conflicts are really people that are working very closely together unwittingly so but very closely in order to provoke from the other the very behavior they say they don't like. Why? Because it justifies them. If I see you with an inward mindset as an obstacle in my way or vehicle just to get what I want irrelevant, I need to be justified in that choice. And if you see me in that way in return, you need to be justified in in that choice. It's like we enter this unspoken agreement, all mistreat you so that you can blame your bad behavior on me. If you'll mistreat me so that I can blame my bad behavior on you. And we'll just agree to do this. Of course, we don't ever say that. We complain about it. It looks like conflict, but it's really a very carefully choreographed dance. We want in self deception, we want justification more than we want anything else. It's like those doctors, they wanted to be absolved of any responsibility even more than they wanted to save those women's lives. Yeah. And Washington, so easy. But it would require that they face up to the fact that maybe we're contributing to this. Does that make sense? It does. And as you were saying, you repeated the word justification four or five times. And it's the same word I wrote down on my notes after reading the book is what an interesting indicator for all of us as leaders, as parents, as human beings, whatever role we happen to be as friends, when we notice justification coming up in our thinking, in our words and behaviors, like what an interesting indicator that is, that maybe this is something for us, all of us to look at if we fall into the strap. Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's really the key. You know, self deception has always been seen as something of a paradox. By people who've looked at this issue for hundreds of years, the issue that how is it possible that I could both be the person lying to myself and believing the lie? I can believe lies that other people tell me because I have no idea what the reality is that they're representing. But if I'm the one telling myself the lie, how could I simultaneously believe that? That's the paradox of self deception. But but we see it everywhere. And so as you said, the key there is to look for justification. If I'm, if I'm trying to make something right, I'm trying to justify it, it means that it's wrong to begin with. It means that I know at some deep level that this isn't the truth, that that that Fay is not just that caricature of a disrespectful, ungrateful, brat of a teenager. I know that. But I don't want to fess up to that because I've chosen to see her that way. I need rather to create a world where all of that is justified. And of course, she will too. And, and it doesn't end there, you know, we'll end up looking for allies. And you see this in organizations, whole teams or divisions that, that end up in collusion with this false narrative that at some deep level, we know, isn't true. But the cost of giving it up is seems so high. Well, we end up valuing that justification, holding onto it. And it's more important to us than success, even happiness. One of the other indicators that I wrote down and thinking about this, like what are the things that each of us watch for as we think about our own mindsets and behaviors, and particularly around mindset is the tendency to think of ourselves as better than others, or interestingly, worse than others. Tell me about those two and what is it about them that show up as indicators for self deception? One of the ways that we find our way into self deception is through something we call self betrayal. When I see other people, just as people that matter like I matter, that count the way I count, we're unequal footing as people, then I'll have all sorts of senses of things that I could do to be more helpful to them. You know, I let's say that you and I work together and I come across a piece of information that would be helpful to you. Well, if I see you as a person, then my sense will be to just go share that information with you. But if I betray, if I go against my own sense of what other people around me need as people, then I have to find justification for that as we've been talking about. Well, there's two ways I can do that. One is to see myself is better than you. So now you're undeserving of this, right? I, and what would that look like? I would see you as you're lazy, you're not competent because I wasn't doing anything more than my job, finding this information. So if you aren't come across it, that means that you're probably not doing your job. And I end up, I end up doing all sorts of things for you, Dave, that probably aren't healthy for you in the long run. They don't help you develop this whole narrative about how superior I am to you and how inferior you are to me. And notice what's happened now. I have all the justification in the world as to why it was better that I didn't share the information that I originally had a sense to share. Yeah, it's like the doctors in the Semify story, you know, that era of like, well, I'm, we know our intentions are good. All those things, it's, it's the same story. Exactly. But you can, you can think of in that, in that small situation, that hypothetical situation, I could get justification going the other way, seeing you as superior to me and me as inferior to you. What would that look like? It looked like, oh, my goodness, Dave, he has so many privileges around here and, and it's such a good education. And he just, he came into this position, far better privilege than I am. And I, I, I'm always late to the party. I'm not really well equipped to do this job. I don't even know why I'm here. In fact, if I take this information a day, he probably found this weeks ago. And then I'll just, I'll just be found out that I'm really not capable here. The same, the same thing is happening. I'm looking for justification. I just found it in a different way in the opposite way. So anytime I betray myself, the way that I end up finding justification is to see others in a diametrically opposed way to myself, whether I see myself as worse than or better than that view of the world that's not true. It's not true about me. And it's not true about you. It ends up giving me justification. And, and the crazy part about all of that is I can then take that view that I have of myself that gave me justification in that moment into other situations in my life. You know, I walk into a meeting and I believe that about me generally, not just toward you, but I'm just better than other people. So I'll feel impatient or disdainful with others. Or I just see myself generally as worse that it becomes characteristic and I just can't measure up and, and you know, I'm not confident, whatever that looks like. And we tend to chop those kinds of things up to personality or something like that, but they really are fundamentalized about ourselves and others that we hold on to, that we need because they justify our choice not to see other people as people. I wish I could tell you, Mitch, that I'm coming back to this book now after 20 years that I read it and liked thinking about all my behavior that the 24 hours before I read the book. And the reality was that I thought, wow, there's a whole bunch of things I missed. And it also shifted my behavior in a couple of substantial ways in the day after reading the book, which is interesting, like just thinking about mindset. And I think that that's probably true for most people who read leadership and self deception. They read it and they think, oh, yeah, I can see myself in these stories. I can see myself approaching things with an inward mindset and not thinking about people as people. And for those of us who have that realization and start thinking about that and listen, this conversation, have that realization, what is perhaps one starting point when you see people starting to like make a real shift on their mindset that that then leads to the behaviors we all want. What's one thing you invite people to do that just gets them started down that path a bit. For me, if I see the red flags of that inward mindset that I'm impatient or disdainful or, or, or I'm self concerned or I'm blaming or whatever that is for me, and typically involves blame of one sort or another. That's the indicator that, you know what, maybe the story I'm telling about myself just isn't true. And for me, one of the simplest tools, if I can see that, if I can just recognize it, even if I'm not fully outward, even if I'm not seeing another person as a person, but I'm just for the first time questioning, you know what, maybe this narrative isn't the whole truth. Just going to meet to learn is a powerful way to get outside yourself. Shifting mindset is not something that's done very well by focusing on mindset. Because if I see that I'm, I'm inward, or I'm even wondering if I'm inward, trying to turn outward is still an inward project because it's about me. So, so I have to get outside of myself somehow. I have to, I have to somehow get reconnected to the humanity of others. I've been caricaturing others in my head. That's harder to do if I'm face to face with another living, breathing human being that has needs and hopes and challenges and objectives. So sometimes I'll just, I'll just say, you know what, I got to meet to learn with this person, no other agenda, but just to get curious. Tell me about, tell me about your needs and your challenges and objectives. What are you trying to accomplish right now? What, what's, what are your big headaches? What's life like for you right now? Tell me what's going on. And so often I'll learn so much in that conversation that will humanize a person and that I can't help but see them as a person going forward, which changes the behaviors that I think to engage in without ever having to think about, well, what should I do now? How do I, you know, how do I do this is if I'm playing chess, right? It's just no, I'm now seeing this person now as a person. Now, if there's been friction in the relationship and it's not just that I've been ambivalent, but there's, there's what I would call conflict, I can't just go meet to learn because those kinds of questions that curiosity will feel suspect to someone that I've been in a collusion with. So I have to start at a different place and this is what we call meet-to-give, where I have to do the work up front prior to speaking with this person to think through what their objectives likely are. What do I already know about what they're trying to accomplish, what they're trying to achieve, what their hopes and needs and dreams and goals are and what's been challenging for them and ask myself, how have I been getting in the way? How have I been making things harder for them to accomplish those objectives? And given that, what's something I could do to make things easier? And I've noticed that when people are willing to meet to give in that way, totally honest, vulnerable, to just sit down with someone and say, "Hey, I know that there's been some friction and I've been thinking about you a lot and I just want to share with you what I've been thinking about in terms of what I understand from my vantage point about your needs and challenges and objectives, what you're trying to accomplish." And it seems like these are your objectives and this is what these are your goals and this is what you're trying to accomplish and and these are some of the some of the headaches that you had. Is that right? Now, I've given this person an opportunity to say, "Yeah, it's just like that or actually it's a little different." If there's been friction and I go and say, "Hey, tell me, tell me what your challenges are. I shouldn't expect anything." Or, "Tell me how I can be more helpful. You shouldn't expect anything." But if I go and I've done some of the work to think about that in advance, it frees a person up to say, "Yeah, it's been like that because now they know that I care enough to do some of that thinking beforehand." And then to just offer, "Well, if that, if those are your objectives, here's something I've been thinking that I could do differently because I think I've been creating this kind of a challenge for you and I need to take responsibility for that. Is that the kind of challenge I've been creating or is it different than that?" And let them respond. And here's the thing that I think I could do going forward. Would that be helpful or is there something else? And I got to tell you Dave, when people make those two practices part of their day-to-day work, meet to learn where I just don't know enough and meet to give where there's been friction, the transformation in mindset is stunning. And then what you'll see is when people are seeing each other like that, as people, when people are real to each other again, the behaviors that they need to engage in in order to achieve a totally different level of result, that will occur to them. And when it occurs to them and you as the leader aren't prescribing it to them, they own it and they'll do it and they'll see it through all the way. So those are the two things I'd recommend. Just take a look at your life, pick one person, someone to meet to learn or meet to give with and do it today and see what happens. For many years, I had a document on our website, on the 10 leadership books I recommended for every leader. And I should update it, but it hasn't been on there for a long time. And leadership and self-deception was always on that list because so much comes back to what you just said, Mitch, of like approaching our relationships first from the outward mindset. And once you start to do that, everything else doesn't become immediately easy, but boy, it is so much easier to be able to shift behavior in so many different ways. So I hope for folks who've not yet read leadership and self-deception that you'll get the fourth version of the book that you'll, it's very concise. You can read it in a sitting or two. And if this is something your organization is trying to do better at, Arbenger is a great resource for doing that. And speaking of Arbenger, Mitch, mindset, of course, comes up so much in your work. And it's it's one of the questions I often ask to at the end of conversations is changing a mindset, right? And I'm curious as you think about your work over the last couple of years, the new edition of the book, Arbenger's support of organizations, what's something you've changed your mind on in the last year or so? Great question. You know, COVID was a massive catalyst for mindset change on lots of different issues. And for us, it was interesting. I had a background in health care. And so working in health care facilities were all in the same building together, working with patients. And then coming here to Arbenger, having been a client of Arbengers, I had that same mindset that we all have to be co-located in order to be effective as a team. Yeah, in fact, we built a building during COVID in order to house our growing company. And then my mindset shifted completely in terms of what effective work could look like. If we're really focused on results, there's so many roles that can be done remotely and often to great benefit to the employees, not to mention that it totally changed the footprint geographically of where we could find talent. Now the world was that footprint. We, and we found talent all over the world, people that are joining the company with and bringing it drastically more diverse viewpoint and life experience that has richly rewarded us as an organization. But I couldn't see it before then. And it's been amazing to watch that transformation in us as an organization, not to mention that when that occurred, and we used to do workshops, like the workshop that is outlined in the narrative of the book leadership and self-deception, we used to do that as a core function of the work that we would do to help organizations transform their culture. And I never believed that anything beyond being in a room, face-to-face with people, closed doors for multiple days could affect real transformational change. And I was wrong. That experience led us to think far more innovatively about ways that videos of real people, not scripted, not role plays, but real people facing real challenges could unlock transformation and make this kind of cultural change scalable in the largest of organizations. So, so many I could go on of examples where I had a particular viewpoint, but my mindset shifted when I began to see that there's another way. And if I'm seeing other people as people whose needs and hopes and challenges matter like my own, there's creative approaches to solve just about any problem that go far beyond the ways that we've thought of in the past. Mitch Warner is a managing partner of the ARP Injury Institute. The book now in its fourth edition, Leadership and Self-deception, the secret to transforming relationships and unleashing results. Mitch, thanks to you and the Institute for everything you've been doing for decades to support leaders. Thank you, Dave. It's been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you. If this conversation was helpful to you three related episodes, I'd also recommend one of them is episode 582. How to compare yourself to others? Molly West Duffy was my guest on that episode. You heard in the conversation today, Mitch and I talking about the challenges it causes us when we think about someone else as better than us or worse than us and the troubling dynamics that that can raise. In episode 582, we talked about the reality that comparison is inevitable. We all tend to do it at least sometimes. The key is how you do it. Rather than trying to not compare yourself, thinking about a healthier way to actually look at that comparison, episode 582 on doing that better. I'd also recommend episode 644. How to help your team embrace growth mindset. Eduardo Pérezeno was my guest on that episode. You heard the invitation from Mitch today to meet to learn. That's a similar invitation that Eduardo made in that conversation of encouraging us in our organizations to think about not just spending time in the performance zone, but spending significant time in the learning zone. That's a key entry point for the growth mindset that most of us want, not only for ourselves, but perhaps even more importantly for our teams and the culture of our organizations. Episode 644. More on how to do that, especially from the lens of a team. Then also, I'd recommend the work of Bob Sutton, episode 667. The way to handle oblivious leadership. It's one thing when we're a bit oblivious on our own, as we talked about today. It's a different thing when it's someone else who's oblivious, particularly if that's the person that we report to. Bob and I talked about that reality. When we run into it, as many of us have in our careers at one point or another, how do we handle it? What are some of the steps we can take? Not only the mindset, but the tactics to get better. Episode 667 for that. All of those episodes you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. I'm inviting you to today, if I could talk to set up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com. That's going to give you access to the entire library that I've heard since 2011. It gives you the opportunity to search the entire back catalog by topic. Many of our past conversations that I mentioned are there, as well as many others. We're filing this conversation today under the topic of personal leadership, also handling difficult situations, conflict that comes up. Many other episodes we've had over the years, the free membership is an entry point for that. It's also an entry point for all of the free audio courses inside of the free membership. One of the courses that's there and available for you is five simple questions that move people forward. It's a five lesson audio course for me. On the five questions I use most often to help people move forward, to help shift behavior. It's a great complement to this conversation. You can access that and everything else just by setting up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com. If you've been using your free membership for a bit, I hope you'll consider coaching for leaders plus. Coaching for leaders plus opens up an entire new suite of benefits to you with a lot more. One of those benefits is my weekly journal entry. I'm writing a weekly journal each week, sending it out to you on email with a relevant topic or resource that will be helpful to you. One of the things that happens for all of us when we start shifting our behavior, even if it's for good, is we often get pushback. Sometimes that pushback's bad and sometimes pushback can be really helpful for us and the other party of getting us to a better place. In a recent journal entry, I talked about what can you do in advance to anticipate pushback? What do you do when you get it and how can you utilize pushback to actually help you and the other party move forward? It's one of those recent journal entries that's available as part of coaching for leaders plus, as is every entry coming to you each week. If you'd like to find out more, go over to coachingforleaders.plus. Coaching for leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support is provided this week as it always is by Sierra Priest. Next week, a conversation on how to bring your strengths to a big job. So, I'm having a conversation with a guest who's got a pretty big job. Don't miss it. See you back on Monday. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]