(upbeat music) - Welcome to The Trish and Sarah Wrestling Podcast. I'm Sarah. - I'm Sarah. - And this is our podcast. We talk about wrestling news and various topics from different promotions, primarily AEW, but also New Japan Pro Wrestling, WWE and topics from around the wrestling world. Whatever we find interesting and we hope you will too. We are a proud member of the Social Superplex Podcast Network and you can find our content on our podcast feed, the Social Superplex Podcast feed, as well as on Twitter and YouTube. Please feel free to like, subscribe, and rate our podcast. We also have a store at Chopped Teas, so if you would like to support us or just own a really cool quality piece of merchandise, please take a look at Chopped-teas.com/collections/social-suplex-network. Suplex is bad for me today, apparently. Can't say it, can't say it. - I thought it would be me doing this, by the way. Oh yeah, you're used to this now. You're going to do the intros now and I'm going to do the outros. - People be very confused. - No, no, no, no. - Didn't enjoy the intro. It is Monday, January 6, 2025, and we are going to kick off the show with all things New Japan as our foreign correspondent, Trish, who is reporting to us live from Tuesday, also known as Tokyo Japan, where she has been just gallivanting about the wrestling world this weekend, attending a bazillion shows, meeting lots of people, getting lots of interesting news nuggets. So we are just going to start off with all things New Japan today, including Wrestle Kingdom and Wrestle Dynasty. I think we're going to hit Wrestle Kingdom first, which was on Saturday night, Japan time, Tokyo time, which was Saturday morning, my time. So, yes, I was talking to somebody today and they were like, it's been Sunday for months, which I could completely understand from a jet lag perspective. But we're going to kick off with the Wrestle Dynasty, which I think got some mixed reviews. It seemed like it was a show that was going really, really well until, unfortunately, we had an injury in the junior heavyweight match between Dookie and Desperado. And that kind of thing sort of seemed to come a little bit off the rails after that. Trish, I watched this, you were there live. What did you think of Wrestle Kingdom? - There is an absolute, completely different, I think, from how people viewed this thing online, to how people viewed it in the same, and in Japan. And that's not to mean people didn't spot the issues, but there was nowhere near the kind of, the absolute kind of breakdowns that I think that's what I got home. So, probably one of the biggest things to say about Wrestle Kingdom when you look at different things is that from a production standpoint, from the way they film, from the way they present things, from the big entrances to the graphics, everything like that, they are literally the best in the world. When they get it right, it's sensational, and it just looks visually, so absolutely stunning, whether you're on the screen, or whether you're watching, kind of in the arena, there's just nothing else like it. And it really kind of emphasized a lot of these wrestlers, especially, I know a lot of people think about the David Finley entrance, but he looked like a top wrestler, probably for the first time, I never seen it. But we've had ridiculous bouncing balls going across the arena, and also, I'm not sure he's trolling night, but by continuously wearing these towels. (both laughing) I came down at that yesterday, but there was no reason to being this giant thing at that stage, like, on the third three thousand people. He just walks in front of him, and I was like, you're doing it on the first note. But yeah, no, the big entrances, that's the thing. He just made everything feel important, everything had like a VR beforehand, and it just felt like, not just like a spectacle, like in the WWE sense, but just like everything really did matter. Whether the results kind of ended up as they wanted them or not, it's like, you can't present your people better than that from your side. You can't control what happens in that ring. That's what led to control, but every other element from Wrestle Kingdom we'll talk about that in a minute. They did that completely perfectly, and it was just like a really stunning show to attend. It didn't feel too long to hear, other than we'll talk about the main, but in general, like the overall length of the show did not feel too long at all. When it came to kind of the show itself, so I know there's been lots of comments about the attendance, so the office in New Japan expected about 25K a few months ago, and they got to 24.107, so yep, we're about three and a half down on last year, but I do think it's important to notice that it is two days, so you will get people choosing between the two, especially whether they're kind of getting a mega. But this was a Saturday, and the fourth is their traditional day. So do you know what I would say, like it's like a TV show and not a sports team? - Yes. - Well, well, in Japan, it's a sports team. - Yes. - So very much it was explained to me the other day, but it is very much a sports team. So you only go to one promotion, so whether you watch DDT or you watch, you know, Noah or whoever it is in New Japan, that is your promotion. You treat it like a sports team, and then the big occasions are the big occasions. So if you go to New Japan, it's the fourth, and you will book your Shinkansen bath or anything like that for a hit. So this is the day. So is it disappointing number? Yeah, but at the same time, for me, there was a key theme in this show, and you might not feel it with all the kind of commentary and the way people have been talking about it. But I thought this was a very much a show that in terms of the position that they put people in and some of the victims they got, it was about elevation, and it was about recognition of people that worked hard and found service. So maybe not for people coming in that doesn't, you know, who watch "Coming for Wrestle Kingdom" once a year may become as a dominion, but in terms of the people that were elevates, you had Go-To win the Rambo. - Yep. - So it has put in a major work for the last year, and then, you know, I'm very popular amongst the crowd. You had, you know, David Finley, the key spot for nobody off to Suji, which was my match of the night. - It was very good. - I think, yeah, and I think it had a lower ceiling potentially going in than to Petra and Chingo. - Yes. - But came out with more. So I was, and the bill to the end of that match was just fantastic. They got everything spot on it, it was still perfectly. - Yeah. - And, and they had to follow the injury to do it. They had to get that crowd back into investing after, you know, horrific injury, and then pick that back up. So I think they did a great job. You know, what you want to think about, you know, Haromu, that, we'll talk about more of that in a minute, but that was a huge spot for him to be in. Dukian, himself, you know, Dukian, no one would have expected him to be on a Wrestle Kingdom card in that spot, going as champion at the huge entrance as well. That was a huge moment. You know, the main event, whether you like it or not, this is the first time in 15 years that the main event did include the names Tanahashi Naito or Akada. And that's a huge movement. And it just felt like, and I felt this, you know, this is how we're done. It's going to be with like gay people as well. But I felt like there was a real effort to do this. And whether that cost you in terms of, you know, your ticket buying that you didn't stick a big name on the top or you didn't put, you know, Kenny had been on this show again, but that hadn't been the night too. Then I'm sure it would have done over 27 days that they did last. - Yes, yes. - So you make people choose. So you have to think about that. It's slightly under what they were. But I think the risk was worth the gain in terms of who they were elevating and how they got there. And I would rather see a company do that than bring in, you know, 10 names from the past to shore up that thing there. And it's interesting. So somebody said to me, they gave me a description of New Japan for Wrestle Kingdom. And, you know, we always think about these big shows, these stadium shows. We talk about them being like a culmination of like a year. - Yep. - And they said to me, so rather than seeing it like that way, like it's a sample, it's a sample of New Japan. So you get a match like a ketchup and a shingo. And you may go in with like sky high expectations. And it may be slightly short, but then the match that you really want to see might be four months later, like a secure genesis. And you'll get that match. So it's like an alpha. Did you feel that way watching it? Did you feel like you were sampling what you could see in the Japan for the rest of the year? - I don't know that I would have come up with that by myself, but I think you suggesting it, it does make a lot of sense, you know, that it in some ways is a culmination of programs, but it's also kind of like here's people we're going to focus on. Like you said, it's rewarding certain people, but also kind of playing off. So I think that's a pretty decent way of describing it. Yeah. - Okay. So we'll start at the top. I don't know if we don't do match reviews, but I think we need to discuss that and shop that. My opinion going in and what I've heard is that this was definitely not the original plan. You know, shop had a really strange field. He was, you know, doing nothing in the GWI walking around with these people belts. They're playing into it being food, or is he not? He had the thing with gay kids that no one's supposed to talk about now. - Yeah. - I had a meeting to develop that. - Well done. - Yeah, but so it's been a very strange year. It's not the way that you would build a challenger for the very event of wrestling England. So we got some detail on what they kind of thought they were doing in that match in terms of what they were trying to convey. So for you, how did you feel about this, about Shota, seeing it from kind of more of the outside perspective, and the main as a whole? - So I thought it was, I'm just gonna be as blunt as possible here, right? I thought it was a mess. And I thought it was a mess from a storytelling perspective rather than from like a moves execution standpoint. I thought both guys looked good. They were good moves. They executed them well, most for the most part, showed us arms and stomps were terrible. But like, you know, but you know, they're good wrestlers, right? And I, you know, I like Zack Sabre, Jr. I don't really have an opinion on Shota. I was really interested going into this match because it felt like something was going to happen, right? That like, Shota had reached kind of a point where like a change was gonna come. What he was doing wasn't working, you know, and even me as a very, very casual New Japan viewer, like is aware of that, right? I'm like, well, something's not working. Something's gonna be, there's gonna be some change here, right? There's gonna be a story told about his journey. And I didn't feel like they told a story about his journey at all. I was just, I felt like there was three different matches that they tried to put together, you know, they're sort of like a weird semi heel turn part of the way through. He shoves his father. He's like trying to attack Zack. But then at the end, he didn't, and he was still a face. And then they have the, you know, respect handshake. And I'm like, what the fuck happened here? Like, nothing, if this was a match, what was like, Shota Umano's gonna tell you who he is. I was like, I left more confused than when I got in there, right? Like I just didn't understand, you know, what was going on. So that's kind of was my overall thought of it. I would say it was not a good match, but it had more to do with the story they were trying to tell and the match layout than it did with like the execution of moves or anything else like that. - All right, so when they were going in, they often do like the interviews and stuff and they're kind of pre-facing what they're gonna do in a match. So, I know you've seen, we've talked about this and it's like the night on her own, I've got over it now, but with this one. So Zach did a number of interviews running up where he was talking about the same things that we talked about. Same thing we talked about with Andy Tilden is, you know, Shota not being able to find his identity. And one minute, he's, you know, baby face Hannah Hashi, the next minute he's trying to be John Moggsley. And that is the story that they were trying to tell. So the idea was that he tries to be Hannah Hashi, you know, up to the submission spot, the long submission spot, which if they ended that match there after the long submission spot, he was getting cheers, right? That maybe would have been much, much smarter. No one would have had an issue with it in terms of time then for anything like that. But that going forward, maybe it might have been a much, much better way of doing this, but they didn't. So the idea was, right, he tries to be Hannah Hashi, he fails. He tries to be John Moggsley and he turns on his father and you know, and he's stomping and he's stomping and he's stomping and that fails. He keeps trying to do all these things, but he's not himself. He's doesn't still know who's shot the room and know is. And that's what costs him the match. That is what they try to do. I know that in the building, they did not come off as that box of weather. - No, it didn't come off that way to me watching it. It makes sense now that you're saying that. I'm like, oh, but I, yeah, it did not come across like that. It came across like a meta version of that where he doesn't know what to do. - Yeah, you're right on the, you mentioned the, like the forearm. So there's a real good comparison on these two shows. So there's a spot on "Wrestle Dynasty" in the Kenny Omega gay kid patch, where Kenny just, he's trying to kind of turnbuckle. - Yep, yep, yep. - Slumps. - And you just, you feel it. And the way, because of the way that Kenny sells, it's like, it doesn't look like comedic or anything in any way. You just feel like it was all student, right? - Yep. - So like his body fights again. With this, it was just like, like, and Japanese is for a respectful way, I will just laugh at you at times if I think it's stupid. And the place just laughed. And I felt like that was the biggest summary. It was like, yeah, that's hilarious. Like, what are you doing? You look like a complete idiot. And so that's kind of where I thought, work-wise, he let himself down a little bit. The big entrance, I'm gonna say something on the stupid bike, okay? 'Cause everyone's talking about the bike. Big cars and bikes are not a normal thing here. Now you'll get these little square cars that have like a really kind of strange shape because they fit underneath, like the garage underneath the houses. So I have no issue with the stupid bike, okay? The bike is big because that's rare here. So the big entrance, it's gonna be very local. Like he goes all the way around and he was like, oh, yeah, that's cool. But there wasn't no issue with that. The length of the match. So I can tell you that the length of the match was not determined by Dukie's injury. Do I understand a lot of people suggesting that? - I don't understand that at all to me. Like that was one of those things where I was like, why on earth would that have anything to do with Dukie's injury? Like to me, it seems like those things are laid out enough that I don't know. That was one that I was like, I doubt that. So it's good to know that that's the case. - So one of the suggestions about that that people were saying about was like, this show is on live TV in Japan. - Oh, okay. - It's on TVS assay. So they show it as just like a live special, as well as on the world. So there was a suggestion that does that have an influence, but it doesn't. They would give in as much time as you want. You decide how much time you are taking. So this was a wrestler led decision. It wasn't about the office saying, oh, you've got 45, you need to do 45 minutes. They were told, you've got carte blanche, you take, you basically decide exactly how long you wanna go. They both felt, this is what I've heard from someone from a source that is completely aware of the conversation. They both felt like they could have shaved some minutes off, but the office was in general. So I know that this is the meme right at the Tanahashi face at the end of the time, but he just, yeah, he looked like me when I was going through that turbulence or something. (laughs) But I am told that Gator, the office was pretty happy with it, and basically told from the end of the game, let's go back for Dynasty tomorrow. So some of the kind of conceptions around this are not really there. Did I think it did much for Shokta coming out of it? No, and I think you could hear that a dash, and you could hear it Dynasty, where I didn't even realize that much. So we went out for, like, to see if we could come back. We didn't realize that, just that I could do it so quiet. And this is the thing about Tokyo Dome crowds. This is not a Buddha con crowd or a Rio go go crowd. There's no like, they are not just going to react to everything. They're not just going to be an investor. You have to fight for these for this crowd. This is a huge crowd, you've got to echo the stadium, and you have to fight for it. And I just don't think like it ever got there, and you could tell that. But then when you go into Opti yesterday, and there's 3,000 people, a lot of them are like, "You're hardcore." And he gets barely any reaction. There was one move he did, and I can't remember who it followed. But it was like literally the move before got a huge reaction, and then he did something, and then was like, "It can drop, but completely slightly." And I was like, "Oh my God, yeah, he's fucked." - It's not good. I felt bad for him, like, you know, it's tough to watch somebody who's, you know, good at wrestling, do a bad job at it, I guess, you know? And it was kind of difficult to see him and Zack be like, I don't know, and even if they were on the same page, they didn't necessarily look like they were on the same page. And I think that was a, it was not a, for that it was not a fun match to watch. - Yeah, and it felt like, dude, like, you're only going to film, and it like doesn't finish. So I was thinking like Don Kirk, Australia was a good example. And you're like, there's a Kingsman film, and a Rasputin one's the same thing. So you watched the first bit, you think, by the end now. And that was like, it was with like the submission spot, the long submission spot, okay, we're at the end. And then like 15 minutes later, you're like, right, we're at the end now. And then it carries on, and you're like, is this ever going to end? We just, we're going to say in Tokyo, no more night, you know, trying to finish it like half 11. And I think it's a long show as well. So you've become more checked out live. And a lot of us have been to, www in the morning, so it was a long day and it feels it. And that's when you're trying to start to. So I don't know if our reaction to it is because like, we're not as emotional about it when you're in there. It's the fact that you're just kind of the end of a show and you just think you're tired. But I didn't find it offensive. So I've seen loads of kind of things where it was like, oh, it was the worst match I've ever seen. And it's like, there was people that were here for JY and Akada a few years ago, which was not panned in the same way, that said like it was complete silence in the entire dome and it was just dire. And this was nowhere close to that. And it didn't feel like a bad match in that sense of stress. It felt like it was a passable one where they tried to do too much and it went 10 minutes too long. So it's a strange kind of kind of difference to that. But yeah, it's interesting. So exactly the lead in these big events. I don't know. I think they see him as this was a bit of recognition. I think this was recognition for the work that he put in. Do I think they see him as this huge long-term investment? I'm not sure. But they can see him as that stop gap and you kind of do that. He's very popular in New Japan. He's very popular in the office. So that, but I don't know. It was a strange to see someone in that style in that spot as being the lead guy in the main event further. Yeah, it was interesting. It was one of them real contradictions of whiplash. When you come back in and we're just like, "Okay." And you come back and you're like, "Holy shit. "Why is the world on you?" Why is the world burning? - I think some of it is this expectation that at some point showed us gonna break out, right? And like be good. And I think there was, my understanding feeling is that a lot of people thought, "Okay, he's gonna break out here." Like, this is his big moment. This is his chance to shine. He's gonna show what he's capable of and it just didn't happen. And like you said, I didn't think it was a bad match per se. Like I've sat through way worse matches than that. But I didn't think it was good either. So I think in that regard, it's kind of like, oh boy, this is your big moment and this is what you came up with. And yikes. So I think that, I think it was a lot of that frustration boiling over. - And maybe you could look at it like that. He got his shot the same way. And you can look at the way that Suji took his shot. - Yep. - And he also has a, Finley's probably the most improved raster in the last year. I know when it comes to the observer boating, everyone's gonna go Carl Fletcher. But when I think of becoming a difference maker and presentation and everything, and then the improvement of his match standards, 'cause Fletcher's always been that good. But the improvement of Finley is, I think that's the same show. And he was, you know, he's kind of undercards MVP for the weekend between the two matches of what for two days. So yeah, Yokta took his shot and put on his best performance on that stage. And I don't think we got that from Shokta. I don't. So that would make sense. And where he goes from here is difficult. You know, they're gonna have to figure that out. I don't think you could rush him back to the main event next year. I don't think he needs to, especially with time of Hashi's retirement. So that will carry next year completely. So yeah, I don't know. They'll have to figure it out. It didn't look from Dash like he's, he's not gonna sit in top of the car for the next few months. But yeah, it's a difficult one. And I think it's hard because you have this middle stretch in the car. So you had to catch your engine go. - Yep. - Which I can get a huge expectations on, probably too high expectation on. I think struggle in a way because they're too similar. So you've got these two guys. I don't think the success is bigger, but they work in similar ways. It's all about the change of speed, the explosivity. And it's really difficult to do that when there's two of the same. You know, when you do get that, Kenny's very good at being able to do this with people similar. Then it's fantastic. But every now and again, it's like, doesn't quite get better. And she can go with, you know, he's aging now. We have this thing in New Japan where he's aging. And like everyone else, you know, like Naito, like Tana Hashi, and you have to accommodate for that as well, where you have to think, you know, so when you put these huge, huge expectations on it, it's really difficult to kind of that, you have that match and that was still a great match. Then you have Yuki and Deathrada, which should be, you know, on paper is a fantastic match. They had a match back in June that was awesome. And I think what happened there was, she had the injury, which was horrendous injury after a huge entrance. And it looked like they hadn't planned to go to the barrier. Like they were supposed to be more central because he pauses at the top. And it's like, he realized he's going to land straight on the barrier. So if he corrects himself and by correcting himself, he realizes that he needs to protect himself. And then once he puts the arm down, that's where he does the arm. That's what it felt like in real time. But that kind of took the flow out the show. And then you get it back a little bit, you have the Finley and Suji match. But if you have those three matches in the middle and they were all great, I don't think people would feel as emotional about the last two than what they did. You know, yeah, it doesn't help. So you did the second domain, which was Heromo and Naito. And that was the ticket sign match. Yeah, so when you look at the ticket movement from post world tag leave, you could see that kicking in. You could see in the crowd when they weren't through all the yards and stuff that it's like, this is the match. This is the match that people wear and see. But it's also a really strange kind of feeling because Heromo is still a junior and juniorists are still seen as lesser in Japan. So it doesn't matter like that. So you've got this guy about that you cannot have him be the aggressor in this match. He cannot be the guy controlling this match. But Naito is not physically in the position to control the match. And the crowd wants to cheer Naito. It's Naito and definitely want to cheer here. So you end up with this like weird tension in the very start where it was like, everybody's watching. There wasn't a person moving, but they didn't know what to do. And I think you can get that a little bit in face versus face matches. And then you have Naito having to be the antagonist as the, you know, the teacher, the sensi and stopping the Heromo getting a momentum and being smarter than him. But it didn't fit what the crowd really wanted. And I think they struggled with that a little bit. And then, you know, you get to the end and you've got his physical capabilities. I want to say Heromo, the amount of work Heromo put into that match in terms of like physically trying to carry Naito was really like remarkable. You could just see it for written, just like Jesus Christ. Like, you know what you're doing here. But the way they tried to tell the story, the match was like, he can't, as he's like the student and he has to come up. And by the time he actually gets to a point where he could defeat him, he then saves him from the start as press. So for anyone that doesn't know, Naito doesn't move forward to the start as press. He's done it in big matches and it's generally cost him. Yeah, he did hit it in 2020 when he won the belt from Ricardo. But he's like, he goes up to the top and most of the time he misses it. So he wants to save him. And that's, he grabbed hold of the leg. This is your cinema, your cinema thing, if you're interested in that. And Heromo costs himself the match because he still cares about Naito as much. And you could tell that afterwards when Naito is in absolute tears, which is really 'cause he doesn't express emotion ever. But I think with that one, it was disappointing you saw the limitations for Naito, but emotionally at the end, they do the, you know, with the start at the end. And it was still probably like one of the most loudest pops of the night. So it was a really strange kind of mix. What do you think of that one? I thought it was, I thought the end and the emotion at the end saved the match for me. And that I was, you know, I was invested in that. I thought it was at times difficult to watch. You know, at Naito's physical condition at times is difficult to watch. It's hard to see him out there. He looks like he's in pain. He looks like he's having a hard time. You know, to some degree, he almost looks like he's having a harder time than Tana has, she does. So it was, it was tough. And it was also tough 'cause I think, you know, especially at the end with him crying, it felt like he almost understood that there was a match he wanted to have, that he had envisioned for a long time having with Heromo, and he wasn't able to physically able to have it. And I think it felt like it broke his heart a little bit. To be honest with you, I'm getting a little tired. But he felt like it, I feel like his heart was broken 'cause he couldn't have that match. He couldn't do that for his student, right? Like, and that was tough. But that emotion alone saved the match for me because I was invested in that. I was like, oh my God, look at this poor guy. Like, you know, I care about this. And that helped a lot. I think if you had stopped the match earlier, if I don't not watch the ending, I probably would have been like, I don't know about this. I also cracked up with the fact that it took both of them a collective 45 minutes to get to the fucking ring. I was literally sitting there being like, Jesus Christ, the match was shorter than the fucking entrance is. Roman Reigns needs to take a fucking lesson. - Yeah, Roman Reigns has nothing on Pepsi and iPad. - No. - Okay. - Nothing. - No. - You're walking to the ring. - Oh my God. - And then the suit comes off and he had the end of my bottle too. But Heromo was like, this is always his game, right? 'Cause it's just like, he has almost quite cultured. It's like, what is he going to wear? How ridiculous is he gonna be? And he came out of that and then the smile on his face and I was like, oh my God. I can't believe he's there. - It was extremely cute. And from a production standpoint, I was a little frustrated 'cause every time you saw it from a distance with the screens in the background and the balls going everywhere, it looked really cool, but they kept doing close-ups. And I was like, it looks stupider with the close-ups 'cause it's just his hands holding onto his head. Like fucking back up, dudes. But yeah, that was one where I was just like, I want a wide shot. Give me a wide shot. - The wide shot, it would have been awesome 'cause like the balls going round like the entire floor and then the screens are fantastic. They have new screens at the Tokyo Dome now. So what you see at the very top of Bressel Kingdom is literally like their new screens in the baseball team. And it just looked phenomenal. And it was like seeing him get that time of the moment. And I think when I finished him, at first I was kind of like dead disappointing 'cause you were like, I wanted Heromo to go. But I realized very quickly that there's going to be a second match. And so when they did the talk in the build-up and they did some fantastic build-up, like little interviews going over their history, you could tell like how much it meant for them. But Heromo was like, oh no, it's going to be well and done. And Naito was like, we'll see our relationship is going to change, I don't know. And I think they played onto that. So it's going to be Karomu that needs that match now. He will need to prove himself. And I think when you do the tag run, 'cause you don't need to be rocket scientists to work out where that one's going. When you do the tag run, you can elevate Heromo up to that. You want him to be more of a heavyweight. But then when you do that second match, it's kind of going to be like, he wants to prove himself so much. He's going to be the antagonist, you know? I could even envision like this being like Naito retirement match and sort of thing. But he has to, and I don't think Naito's going to go on a year tour, like kind of Hashi, I don't know. But it's like, he's not, he's just going to be like, yeah. - The 17 retirements. - Oh god. - The 17 retirements of Brian Danielson, we won't have that either. (both laughing) - I thought you were going to go about 17th, Taiwan and the John Cena, but it's all the same fucking thing. - It's all the same fucking thing. - No, that makes sense. I think from my perspective, it was probably one of the things I was missing from the match layout was expecting Heromo to be more of the antagonist and wishing that was happening. So that was kind of one of those things that I feel like if they do a rematch and they're able to do that, that'll, I think, make it a lot more interesting. To me, I mean, I'm the most important person here. So. - You're absolutely up. (both laughing) - But no, I actually think it would work. So I think that, you know, they're always going to cheer Naito over him. They love Heromo, but Naito is Naito. So if you have Heromo being the more of the antagonist and you play off like this, the bigger last thing, I think it'll work so much better. And, you know, Heromo, it's just, 'cause if we talk about Heromo is age up, Heromo is 37 now. It's about his physical, you know, ability, everything that's gone on since, you know, he's probably been there. And it's one of those things where I'm bullish on it, because when he has the matches, where he's the underdog, where it's someone like, they want to cheer him, where it's been the match they have with Evil, back in 2020 or when he challenged Naito last year or this year with Tanare, there's enough. He can work in that role, but he has to do the other stuff as well. But I like the opportunity of him working with the tech division with Naito. And the thing about this is, and this has also got lost in front of me, but yes, they have been too slow. Yes, they have missed whole generations of people here. There was the generator before the, this kind of class was shot to Suji with Master Watteau and that sort of thing, where they just haven't converted. And we missed a bar of a bushi, and we missed a bar of a shingo, and we were a stop-start with Oscar. You can probably go down the card and pick things out. And Jay White was, you know, brought back, but never kind of presented as anything. He was treated as secondary on money, even when he had the world championship. But they have recognized that they have to move on now. Yeah. So you put Naito in the tech division. You have him being able to draw houses with that. You can use that. And this is what they did with, it's actually in June. So you had the juniors on top, and then you had the LIJ tag underneath the, with the first time that Heroku and Naito have been in the same ring to give her an attack. So to use it that way, that is the way to use him now. He is not going to be physically on top. He cannot do 25-minute main events at the Tokyo there every year. You have to move on. You have to take these risks, and to do that and put him in the tag division is the right call. And it's the same with Tana Hashi. Yeah, Tana Hashi and Evil, whether you write this or not, was good. Okay. Yeah. He was good. They had incredible, the evil entrance was just, that was amazing. Yeah. But the way they did that was they used Tana Hashi. You know, they were running the story. It's his head last year. And they made him like, you know, comfortable. And it was like, we're protecting him. But the match didn't feel like it suffered. It didn't feel like it was slow or you're watching somebody that age. Yeah, you use all the tricks. You use all the how to talk to them. This is one of them things where the, all the how to sort of stuff worked. It worked perfectly. And they got a decent result out of it. It, you know, it actually felt like people were invested in it. And it's like, rather than, you remember, like when we watched MJF and Tana Hashi and Tana Hashi's legs were like, it was just painful to watch. Yeah. But with this, it was like, yes, that works. That was great. And so they know that they have to protect Tana Hashi. They know that they have to protect Tana Hashi United. They know that they need them for drawing for the next year. So I think they did everything. There's that recognition that I don't think there has been in recent years and, you know, last year, they run Naito into the ground. They absolutely run him into the ground. They need to, yeah, he kept their figures up. So they were up, you're on your own tickets overall. If you don't put that on the back of Tetsuya Naito, like for the last year, I think you're insane. Whether you, you know, physically, whatever, that guy kept that company on that level. You take him out the main event this year and put him in a secondary role and it's not as strong, but they need to do it and they've recognized it. He'll be fun in the tags, you know, him and, yeah, I thought Haromu was like, Haromu, last night, I was like, mate, you better be doing your cardio 'cause you are, fuck, you are gonna be wrestling like 20 minutes, fuck it. - He was bumping his ass off in that match. But before we move on to Wrestle Kingdom, do you have, or Wrestle Dynasty, I should say, do you have anything else you wanna talk about with regard to Wrestle Kingdom itself or you just wanna head on to Sunday? - I thought the Zumi Myra, it was a tiny one, it was very good, no great sprint. The crowd were very into that, which was good because I know there's been quite a lot of that. We'll talk about to Keshia with Dynasty 'cause I think we can do that more. I think it is worth a note and now we have that he signed with Ninja Panel World effort for our second, but he was the only guy from outside on that card. So there was no bringing in the John Moxie. There was no room as that was a main event at Wrestle Kingdom at one point. There was no bringing in a Brian Danielson. There was no bringing in a Kenny Omega from that card. So this was a New Japan card, you know? They really did go, this is our guys for whatever reason, whatever you want to know, this is our guys, this is our company. And I would rather see that anytime than relying on bringing somebody in from another country or anything like that and putting them above your people. And it's like the opposite feeling to what we felt coming out of all in, where it was like this guy at the top, it's been the same guy and I will put in that guy back. That the feeling of freshness, I do think there was a distinct feeling of freshness for this show. And maybe not everything came off, but you take the risk. So you know, even the Zachary Chopper thing, plenty of criticism for the way they built each other, but you know, although the previous texts were very good, but you take the risks and I think long term, that's gonna be much more healthy for them than, oh, we'll get a card a back or we'll get them off to them. You know, I just think, yeah, that was my favorite number. - Well, I think that's, I mean, I think that's a thing you can learn from, you know, it's like you said, they waited too long on some guys, they didn't put people in opportunity places where they needed to and now they're like, well, we're gonna fucking do it, right? So let's be patient, let's take the time, let's trust the people we've got and not look somewhere else for, you know, a quick fix. And I think, you know, from that perspective, you kind of want to see that in a promotion. Even if you, even if you don't have the growth or the business that you want to have. - Yeah, I know, absolutely. And I was, yeah, I was very much kind of in favor of that. Let's talk about diversity 'cause this was a fun show. This was "The Bitten Door One," like sneaking good on paper and ended up feeling that way as well. - It was a fun fucking show. It was just an enjoyable show and Kenny Omega was like, Jesus Christ, that was almost a religious experience. I swear to God, like that was, and I, my time zones were all fucked up. So I woke up, saw a lot of the reaction and then was like, well, the show, the match isn't gonna live up to the way that people are talking about it. And it did, it was better. I was like, Jesus Christ, God, I miss that fucking guy. Like, God, we missed him. Like just everything about it. And not just the match, like the post show, the promo afterwards, like multiple promos he did afterwards were absolutely fucking incredible. And just like, there's nobody better. I'm sorry, there's nobody better. I don't wanna hear anything about fucking anybody else. It's fucking Kenny Omega. He's the greatest wrestler of all time. Like, shut the fuck up. - Well, we do all thing on Kenny Omega when he came back to power struggle, right? - Yes, yes, it was funny to see that get retweeted on fucking Sunday. It wasn't, I was like, what happened to my daughter? Oh, that's why. - But there is no one like Kenny Omega. We did that because there isn't, you don't feel like this with anybody else. - Right, that is. - The person that will ask for it, not whoever. I don't give a fuck who you think it is. There is nobody. And when I talk about that feeling that we chase, the reason like, I wanna findoor like review and survive. Like, that's the feeling you chase, that energy. When you come out and like, you're just electric. You feel electric. Like, the boys are like, we'll miss with us. We were just that evening. We just had so much energy, like positive energy. I know that everyone thinks, oh, I've all went online, just to, but no, we went, I'll tell you what we did, actually. We're on the rollercoaster, the thunder dolphin, which is insane. Oh, it's been fucking brilliant, bro. And we're just going around the whole thing going. (laughing) Because it was just like that energy, that thing with that. And that expert, they were such high expectations. - There's so much higher expectations. And he's sort of asked them. - Yeah, like this guy has been out for, what, 13 months? - Yeah. - 13 months. And he doesn't come back and have a warmup. He doesn't come back and wrestle at Adam Cole. It's like, he comes back and he's best as any was before. Yeah, the elevation that you got on a couple of dives was insane. And the speed and his normal changeups and his structuring, they did so much cool over stuff. Oh my God. - He did a dive into the corner on Kid. And I swear to God, he launched himself from like two thirds of the ring away. I was like, how the fuck did he get all the way over there? With just like, like his explosiveness, I honest to God, Trish, I think he looked better than when he came back in 2022. Like I, he did, yeah. - He looked pretty much, the dome was like the one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. And yet this felt more to me. I don't, oh. - He just looked absolutely fucking incredible. He looked crisp, he looked strong. He looked like he felt good, right? Like I think there were times, right? There were times that some of the ends, like, you know, the hangman match when he lost to hangman, you know, some of the end before he went out with the diverticulitis, you looked at him and you thought, this man doesn't feel good, right? There was none of that. He looked like he felt like a fucking million dollars and he was coming to kill you. - And I am, he felt like, he felt like a God because he is a God. - Yeah. - And you could tell, like, he was fully invested. He was fully invested in the character, all the work that he did with Gabe and the run-out. The stuff at the press conference, the promo's here. Henny Omega is a bad promo. How many times have I heard about? - Oh, fucking shut up about that. - If that's a fucking bad promo, then the rest of the world is fucked. - My favorite, this is so, you're so stupid. But the part where kid starts and Kenny just goes, go ahead, Greg. I was like... (laughing) No, the structure, the way they built it, is that they want to Gabe to be the baby face. - Yes. - So Gabe Kid, who has gotten over pretty naturally this year by the end of the G1 was over at the baby face. And looking at when they did it dash last night, that's gonna play in. Then they looked like he was very much jealous of the reaction Gabe was getting when an exchange especially with Suji. So it's like, they're gonna play on that this year. That's gonna be the story of this year. But it was like, he just, they wanted him to be the baby face. And you're doing this with Kenny Omega, who's just come back up to 13 months. And he tells the crowd, I want you to boo me. And because they care so much about Kenny, it wasn't like, oh, they're disrespectful. No, or they just went, okay, this is our role. Let's do it. And it's sensational to see that manipulation of the crowd. There is not many people who can do that. There's not that many people that can change a crowd like that and get them to do exactly what they want. And the way that thing was structured, even like little things. So like, when he does the dirty outside that takes out like Bryce Renzberg. And then that gives them so much time then to do other things because you don't have to worry about the 20 count. And it's like, that sort of thing, it's only little, but it's so clever. So there's never like this kind of thing of like, well, that's fucking stupid. And he gave Gabe so much, and Gabe was great, right? This is how same that he is looking for the wrestler. You can fuck off. I've had enough of it. It's a bit going on for a while. I've watched this kid since he was like, real young, when he was coming in for another show and like, when he was at home, when he was like, Joseph Connor's boy. And it's like, he's a great wrestler. Yes, the shouting, the screaming, you know, he needs to tell back of that. In fact, when he's more sinister, I think he's even better. But he's a baby face. This guy can be a really good baby face. He's had a great year. He's a great wrestler. And if you've underestimated him, or you piss out of his photos and you're like, why is Kenny coming back to, you know, why has Kenny Omega chosen? 'Cause that's what's happened to it. Why is he chosen, Gabe Pitt? Well, not really fucking that. 'Cause that guy stepped up. That guy stepped up in a way, but if that had been an osprey or the catch, you'd be raving about him for like the next week. You'd be talking about him as like, you know, the next big star in wrestling. But because, you know, there's this thing in this cliche, this is, in some way, it was a shock to, you know, that to expect there's like a precursor going in. And he shut you all the fuck up. He was fantastic. He did everything like that. They got the psychology right. And you just saw everything that he can be. But Kenny Omega gave you that. He can make somebody in one night. We talk about making someone in one night. He can do that. And he does the Oscar. And he's now got, you know, and now he's sat with this character, you know, he's playing off this walk. If I, in a really funny way, he's doing John Moxie's gibbit, but way better than fucking John Moxie. - Yeah. - Okay. And that should show you that. But yeah, I think he was right that it was Gabe. I think he was right that he needed to be in New Japan. - Yeah. - You know, people say, there are many people say, oh, you know, AEW can't give him a Tokyo, though. AEW can give him similar, right? This was 16K. Okay. You can get, it's only a few less thousand than that, a revolution. What you're telling me is AEW aren't willing to make him feel that special. And that's the thing they have to try and correct this year. And whether you can do that when you've got John Moxie running around, you know, doing U.S. health report or stuff, and that being the predominant line. Or when they want to feature this person, or they want to feature Copeland, or they want to feature whoever, the restrictions, everything like that. I don't know. You know, they brought Adam Copeland back on top of this guy. Adam Copeland goes to NXT, does a 0.16 needs rescuing out of the WrestleMania in main event by Brian Danielson. And I'm not being nasty. I think Copeland is a great worker. He's not Kenny Omega. You've brought back. And don't tell me that this wasn't the case, 'cause it was. The last thing is the most important thing on the show. You did exactly the same thing that you did with Hangman and MJF, or you did the Hangman return and then the MJF turn, right? You told the audience that Adam Copeland was more important to you than Kenny Omega. Are you fucking insane? What is wrong with you? Like, I don't care if you're working silos. I don't care if you're trying to deliver all these things like with Marzna, I get it. But you didn't have to fucking do that. This is the guy. Still, he's still the guy. And like, we said it a while ago, and people go, look, he's still the fucking guy, 'cause nobody else can do this. Nobody. - My frustration level with, I think, some of the, you know, you say, we say, Kenny isn't presented in AEW the way he is in New Japan. Well, you know, they didn't have a Tokyo dome to do this. They couldn't return him at a Tokyo table. It's excuse after, excuse after, excuse. You say, well, they chose to present Copeland over Kenny. Well, they had to, 'cause the main event was the final thing on the show. Again, these are choices that AEW makes. The Tony Con makes. These are not forced things that they have to do, okay? And that's fine. These are the choices that Tony Con makes. I can look at him and think he's fucking insane, because I'm sorry, there are wrestlers that are good. There are Adam Copeland's, there are John Moxley's, there are wrestlers that are good, and then there's Kenny fucking Omega, right? And you see what he's capable of doing, and you watch that fucking match, and you think to yourself, what the fuck are you doing? This is unbelievable. Like, unbelievable to me. And I get it, like, I feel like there's a degree where I appreciate that there are times where there's almost certainly a lot of negativity about AEW. And I get that that can probably feel overwhelming, and I get that it can be difficult when people who used to like to show or used to think things are good, now don't think it's good anymore. But I don't see how anybody can take a look at how they've handled the Kenny's of return, and think that AEW is prioritizing it. Like, it's maybe a priority, but it's like fourth or fifth on the list. It's not right in the fuck up there. And I'm just, I'm sorry, like, I just, I don't get it. I don't get how you look at that and think, geez, Adam Copeland's more important to us right now, right? Like, you know, fine, but I'm still gonna, I'm gonna have a feeling about that. I'm sorry I am. - There's been this real kind of contradiction in the way people have discussed this, right? So when we say, like, this is what you didn't really look at any of it, that's not like AEW bad. That's like, this is how you wanna present. And you have to say, right, so what could they do? So I would take it back to saying like, oh, you're hunking with Tokyo, don't you? Okay, so what could they do that they're not doing? The New Japan gave him. So, promos, when he came back in 2022, right? He was a mute, who was a mute, all the way through, live mic, no live mic. In fact, he stole a live mic when he was coming, right? - Yes, yes. - He's a mute all the way through to revolution. That's not how you treat a star. This live mic thing, I'm gonna keep on about it because it's so important. And how they manipulate that is absolutely critical. So now you see you get that built, right? So he comes out of power struggle, he has a live mic for the amount of time. Okay, on AEW, he came back as a suit. - He didn't say a fucking word. - No, he comes back as a fucking suit, right? They bring him back as a star and they put him in that chair and he's like, you know, this egotistical villain and they play into all that in the history of if you want him to surpass him and you're gonna get loose guys over his baby faces, we're going to get these guys over his baby face and choosing Kenny Omega. It's not fucking hard, right? I don't go to hell now, but you can see where they're going. You can see where they did this, right? So it's like, okay, so is he gonna get the live promos? Look at the promo work that he did there. He has to get that time. You have to say, you know, MJF, you can shout for fucking 20 minutes or once. You know, Kenny needs this time, Kenny needs that spot. Are you going to do that job? I don't know, but live promos, they didn't give him that last time. This thing, he's a good promo when he's invested and he can do that and the carrots work, but you have to give him that time, okay? So they can give him that. Can they give him the presentation? Can they make everything he does feel special or will they pro matches out on two days? Nobody's like MJF. - Right. - Yeah, and yeah, don't do that whole thing or go. They built, you know, there was a story there. I'd wish it, how long was the actual promotion? How long was that a thing on TV? Was it positioned to succeed or was it stuck on a date it wouldn't draw? Which he wants, you know, did you give it a chance or something? Did you make this guy feel as big as he actually is or did you just throw it out there? That's what New Japan did. We'd had the bill, we had from power struggle. We had the promos, we had the press conference, you know, they run VRs, they run history. They stick the matches out of Kenny Omega. It's not the same. Like, you can do these things. There is nothing stopping you doing these things to make people feel important. It's not just about a fucking entrance and on a big stage. And they can put them on a big stage. Are you telling me that you can't treat him like Brian Anderson? - Oh, I was just about to cry. - Brian, Brian, Daniel's in the heart and soul of your company. No, look at this fucking guy. You can give him that presentation and that reverent. You don't think it will be better, are you? You know, Brian was treating him like, it's all early fucking wrestling. All early wrestling, right? Whether you like it or not, Tony, it's all early wrestling. And, you know, it's Kenny Omega. If you don't have this guy at the center of your company, and that doesn't mean he needs to be the most push guy all the time, but if you don't recognise him as the heart of that company, and you don't treat him like that, then people will look down on that company, because they can see what he can be, because he can go to New Japan and do that. And that's always been the New Zealand, you know? I think this question is about, is Kenny Salman, New Japan now as a secondary girl? I think that's going to be a question for the next couple of months as well. Will he do more there? Absolutely, he's already talking about Shindo. He's talking about tagging with Hannah Hashi. You know, he's talking about doing other work in Japan. So we're going to see more of him in that, but while we do, you're going to see more of that differential in the presentation. And he spoke about it. I want to be presented like Groma Ren said, does not mean I win every fucking match. It means you present me as special. Every match I have is special. I'm a special attraction at this age. You know, I'm not young anymore. I can't fly around like 2016 G1 on a special attraction, but you treat me like I'm important. You don't get this wrong this time. And you've already started calling. And I liked the video. I liked the videos on that. We were never going to be on Dynamite. We all knew that he was flying that day because he was doing the press conference on Friday. But like, you fucked it up with the Copeland thing already. So fix it. And I don't care what Moxie's plan is. I don't care what a deaf writer plan is. I don't care what any of this shit is. Like, if you don't realize that this is the key, like the momentum changer that you've been chasing since you fucked up less worth and hang around and other things. Like, that's it. You even embrace it where you don't. - It certainly seems like, you know, let me put it this way. It certainly seems like New Japan was very happy to present AEW stars as big deals in a way that sometimes AEW does not. They're treatment of techestra. Yeah, they're treatment of techestra. They're treatment of the Young Bucks. Like, it's hard not to look at Tana Hashi sitting there crying over Kenny Omega's match and thinking that man will do whatever the fuck he has to do to keep Kenny coming back for any match he wants to have. What do you want Kenny? We'll make it happen for you. You know, and if Tony's not willing to do that, like there's fucking other options out there. Like, you know what I mean? Like at this point, people have made enough money that they don't have to sit and wait for WWE to call. Like, and I think that's the part where it's like, I don't know, that's where I find it sort of frustrating. Like you said, it's all elite wrestling. I didn't, and I'm not trying to shit on anybody in specific. Like, I'm not, I'm not. I didn't start watching all elite wrestling because I'm a giant fan of fucking Edge, right? Or because I'm a big Jeff Jarrett girl, right? Like, it's great that you have these guys and it's fine that you want to use them, but you have also got Kenny fucking Omega. And what the fuck are you doing? Like, I'm sorry, what the fuck? Like... - Yeah. - And you bring them back as a suit and not the god of progress. - Right. - Here's Executive Vice President Kenny Omega, Vice Principal Christopher Daniels is here to introduce him, right? - Oh, Jesus Christ, it's not a cell on that one, but a... - Okay, we gotta get back to Wrestle Kingdom or Wrestle Dynasty. We can't go off on an AEW tangent now. - Sure, but you did bring up a really interesting point where you said they're presenting the way that they're not done in AEW and treated in a way that they're not done in AEW. And there is an element of that. And there is an element that resonates with those talents. You know, I think it was described because you know, New Japan really rolled out the red carpet and they felt important. And it was like a pleasant surprise. And then the crowd embraced, you know, the pucks of love, you know, there was lots of talk going in about they wouldn't get a reaction, they wouldn't get anything. And then the crowd were real happy to see it. You know, we had all the champs and stuff and they were happy with the wind. So, you know, I was kind of, I think, a little optic. So I think I was a bit of a surprise for them as well, but I wasn't one. And, you know, I for everybody else too, because you saw like, oh, they're the young bucks. And this is what they look like when you take away all the kind of bullshit that AEW never dissipated. And this is like the model. And same with Kenny as well. Like he can just be this character. There's nothing else. There's nothing else that we talk about. And, you know, he doesn't have to worry about, you know, someone else undercutting his moves or, you know, cutting down his promo time or, you know, his themes or the stupid things that happen in AEW with the politics and stuff. And everyone working in their own little vacuum. Excuse me. But he doesn't need to do that in New Japan. And the thing about that Tana Hashi thing, about Tana Hashi crying, you know, this is the greatest baby face of all the time. And if it is, it felt real emotion. It wasn't like, you know, rah, rah, AEW stuff that's going over there a moment. And, you know, I don't always want to compare it to AEW or that, but that is a difference. You're seeing that in real time. And that's why I think you've got this explosive emotion response after this. While I was too busy about riding roller coasters. But, but I think that's why you've got it was because you can see that comparison in real time. You can feel it. You felt that. But when Tana Hashi's crying, that actually sent me off. I was just like done. Right. Tana Hashi sent me off. And because you felt that moment. And that's when I felt you felt like him crying like that. And that seems like natural response. Made you think about Kenny's journey. Made you think about what gave the kids comfort. But made you think about the toils and the struggle with New Japan. The fact that this guy was a wave for so long because of what ever happened. And yeah, he leaves just after the Tana Hashi match where they play into it. And they use like, you know, this. That was, it's so rather quick to think about it. But that was like, you know, which version of this is better for New Japan. That was the whole story of that match. So all that emotional, that history is wrapped up. And it didn't need like some bravo promo. It didn't need some huge backstage segment. All it needed was kind of Hashi displaying real emotion. It felt like, to me, the flip side of the emotion I felt at the end of Naito vs. Haromo. Where you looked at Naito and you went, time has passed him by. Like you look at Naito and you feel as, this is gonna sound terrible. The inevitable outcome that is death. We will all age and die. And you looked at Kenny Omega's match and you felt like Tana Hashi and you wanted to cry because you were like, we have more time. We didn't think we were going to have this time. We were terrified we weren't gonna have it. We have that time. Oh God, we're so, we're so lucky. How lucky are we to live in a world where Kenny Omega is here and is wrestling for us? Like what else could you possibly want as a wrestling fan? - John, that's the feeling you chose. You know, all these pollocks about restore the feeling, though, Kenny Omega might just be the feeling. - He's been the feeling for a long time. - Yeah, I nearly might as a whole just be the feeling. I think that's what I felt coming off the show. And we're not talking about the new Elite, by the way, and I say that we're talking about the four that are. - Right. - And when you think about it, and you think about the last few years and you watched like, you know, in the box in the dome as well, who structured that match incredibly. Like you had, they sent it on Jeff Cobb, you get his own offense over 'cause you know that you're not doing that match, you know, you know, like, this is the chance for the United Empire to kind of get their shine. And then you protect Knight. And the Knight told it the best I've seen him in month. It seems like flipping around and shooting, you know, Matt's playing with Herromoo. And, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say that I wasn't happy about that. 'Cause I was like, but uh. - I knew that popped you. I was like, oh God, this is like her greatest dream come true. (laughs) I was like, I didn't want anything else. It was like, he came out in the stupid costume, like Herromoo again. And I was like, Matt Jackson, you're gonna have to what we gave him. And he came out in like 10,000 polls. And I was like, yeah, halfway, okay. - But they were, I have to say, they were artfully applied in a way that I'm not sure all of Matt Jackson's pearls have been. Like, it feels like he's elevated his look. And not to jump on tunnel talks, you know, thing. - Oh, yeah, we're on tunnel, the tunnel is all painted. - Right. But he really did feel like he understood the assignment, like, and he really thought about his pearl choices and how they were gonna work both with his wrestling and his outfit. It was just fucking spectacular. I loved the Young Bucks match. I was so, I was like, I've missed these fucking party matches so much. - Yeah. - Right? Just a bunch? - I had so much stuff to it. There was so much, a little bit of stuff to do as well, but they just got everything spot on. - They were just having a good, they were having a good fucking time in the ring and I was too, right? Like, that's the part, like, I just fucking loved it. So, you know, I was like, this is great, you know? And you missed them. You were like, geez, I wish they'd been around. Okay, I'm happy to see them back. Let's go. - Yeah, it was, it was like, watching them with so much freedom. I felt like they had so much freedom. I think it was a crash in the last year that just got like, it completely came off their backs. And they figured out, you know, this is the hybrid of the EDP era in the previous era. You know, you use old muted pants, which is very cute. But, and it makes sense for them to be in that position because you want Heroma and Naito to chase. You want that to be a big moment. I do think that should be in Japan. - Yes, yes. - I know the, I know the sensibility of putting in, like, California and doing that much there and the value of the yen and the, again, the dollar. But I do think that match should be in Japan. That moment, that Heroma and Naito moment should be on their biggest day for their audience because that is a domestic match for me. - Agreed, agreed. - So, I would like to see that. But I like the idea of them chasing the bucks and, you know, working with, you can see it from that match alone, but Naito being able to work with those three guys. And Heroma, yeah, he wanted to work with them up for indoor when he couldn't come, he was never seen. But you can see how much he was enjoying it. But it's the same, you know what I was like, it's because of the way they protect people. They know how to structure it. And we spoke about this at Findoor, like, first, I don't think we just spoke about it on podcast, but the way they protected Tana Hashim climbing the ropes, you know, just by, like, so here wasn't that 15 seconds where you went, fuck this guy at all. And the way that they protected Steve, you know, Heroma could be Darby just as much. She's still a fucking woman, isn't it? But the way that they, they structure, especially Nick's structures, he's managed to do that, is perfect. And so he, they are the guys, they're perfect for nights. Right now, that is exactly the kind of thing you want to do. And yeah, that worked really, really well. And we went for a nice stretch of matches. You know, we had the Ishi Tukesh to match, which was the better of the two Tukesh to matches. - Unbelievable match, absolutely fantastic. Absolutely fucking fantastic. - Oh. - And I think it worked better than the Shingo match because they were slightly different styles inside. - Yeah, I agree. - I have two, I thought that Shingo and Tukesh were too similar in some ways. But then when you have someone like Ishi and you can work with that, it's just sensational, like the end sequence like that. That crowd was dead up to then, right? - Yeah. - They air about Claudio and Shata. Like, I totally didn't care about most things. I don't know who should go on that. And they were into parts of the women's matches at times, but they were not, it was like a different feeling. And in the end, they did like, you know, Finley and Brody Kick, but there was nothing like that. And that was like the first time that place got alive like that. - Yeah. - So, but Tukesh to, should we talk about Tukesh to? - Let's talk about Tukesh. - Let's talk about Tukesh to a new Japan. And people like told me it was bollocks and told me I was lying and all this thing. And they told Tim Hunter, our friend, who's had to tolerate me for five days now out of here. They told me him was lying and that's something. Okay, Tukesh to get that spot on wrestling, that means he only kind of hung up outside to do that. They use his DVT team, quite interesting. And then he gets a spot on second date. He has a never title. Tukesh to, it's the guy they're targeting. The good kiddani comments, what's the line? I'm going to get that. - You want me to get it from down here? - Yeah, you can find that one. I talk about Tukesh a bit more, if I-- - I'm not sure, again. - So this is a translation of a Japanese Tokyo sports article. So I apologize for any, you know, forgive me. But Tukaki kiddani has indicated that he believes Kenosuke Tukeshta has signed a one year contract with New Japan Pro Wrestling. He noted that AEW holds a limited number of dates compared to New Japan Pro Wrestling, suggesting that if Tukeshta desires to be a leading wrestler for New Japan, that opportunity may very well be available to him. - Yeah, so that is the most interesting statement anybody's made about to catch your weekend. - Yeah. - Do you remember after the rest of Dream, we spoke about Tukeshta getting that vote and we said that he would not get elevated and it would still be in the same spot and it happened. And we said that after the G1, Tukeshta had personally while he was in Japan, expressed the want to be part of New Japan. And he felt like the environment was much more suited for him and he's monetary-wise, there's always a full of AEW, but he's not in a bad position, family-wise, I believe. All of that came to our head here. This was Tukeshta, how he should be presented. This is one of the best wrestlers in the world. And again, you've got that top heavy issue in AEW and he's not the guy they're gonna choose to elevate. - Nope. - Especially because, so he is perfect for that role in New Japan. And I feel it's very interested that he said that AEW had limited dates. I thought that was quite an interesting comment. - Yes, I should. - I was talking about previously. - I did a bad job on this, though, Trisha. I should note that this translation came from Chris Samsa on Twitter. So I apologize for not saying that up front, but that's where the translation came from. So go continue. - Chris does a great job. - Yes. - Yes. - You saw it here, they gave him the time, they gave him the opponents. They gave him the best possible opponents to get him across with that crowd. And when they did the rundown on Saffler, I don't know if you guys heard this on the audio or not, but they run for all the matches and you get like the audience response. Do you just kind of grade like who were they looking forward to seeing when they bought their tickets, right? So obviously the loudest was Heromo Naito, which is expected. And then the second loudest wasn't Zack and shots, so it was catch fear and jingle. - Yep. - And it was interesting. And listen to response to the catch of the day, 'cause then they're like a star. He does have the opportunity there. If he wants it, he can be that guy. - Yes. - And I think they've got a few that can. I think you're the two do you stepping up? You know, people are looking at all your work coming in and saying he could do something. There's lots of potential, but he has it put together. He has that explosive and he has that thing that, it is that aura. I hate the word aura now, 'cause it's been fucking rare. But he has that aura that this is the guy. And you can feel it and the energy changes when he comes and he's involved in things. - Yeah. - And it could be spot there. His contract was due up at the end of the issue. And there's been some interesting lines on this. - Yeah. - And I think, I think people were, I don't know if it's, I don't call, well, I can't use co-penny more, can we now? 'Cause it's a fucking name now. But it's like, I don't know what it is. I think this is smart on AEW's perspective. If it's Tony working out with Rocky or whatever, is do this now? Or you could face the potential of losing him completely? - Yeah. - Right? Because he's not gonna get that much higher up in AEW. He's not gonna get the screen time. Yeah, he can give him a fucking belt. Doesn't fucking mean anything. - Yeah, all the things that define people in AEW in terms of their importance, he's not gonna move up in that thing. But in New Japan, he can be the ace. He can be the guy. He can be the lead. And they obviously see him like that because you don't put him in these spots if you don't. - He's further along than, like a SUGI is good, right? But he's further along than SUGI. And so, you know, and that's not to say that somebody like Shoda can't put it together, right? But at this point, like, if they need somebody to bridge a gap, he's ready to bridge that gap. And I think it's very clear that, like you said, the belt means fucking nothing in AEW. I don't wanna hear another excuse about how, no, Tony's pushing him. He won blank title. What have private party done? What has Daniel Garcia done? What has Tkeshta done? They've done fucking Jack and shit. And it's not any of those guys' individual faults. I don't wanna hear, oh, do Garcia's plans at private party or stupid and boring? Fuck you. Those guys have been given nothing. Nothing. They've had to do with whatever crumbs got left over after MJF's last 25-minute promo, right? So, fine. You know, I think that hopefully Tony Khan has learned some lessons from the Lucha brothers in terms of being like, you know, you give guys the impression that they don't have anywhere to go and they're gonna take off. Because why would you stick around if you're just gonna hit a ceiling that you can break? - Yeah, and you can't solve that by just checking about them. So that the answer was, I will give you more money and we'll give you a trio's winner all in. It's like, yeah, but they're still moving the same spot. But you can go there and maybe you'll be like, let's just go, maybe you'll be in a bigger spot. But there's more opportunity. That's why we talk about the second. It's the same with the ketchup. You know, you can see the opportunity for him and maybe it'd increase his value in totally funny for the past, eventually. But it does not open. But that's the spot. It's overproof for him and he's ready for it. He doesn't need, and he doesn't, yeah, you're right. He doesn't have the limitations or some of the things that need to work on versus you, or Lumina, or even a Zack, be fair. Right now, he's charismatic. Let's be honest. He looks good. The women that I heard are doing, no, no, no. The ketchup, it's like, that might seem thing in that bit as a cliche, but that is a key part of New Japan market. - Yeah. - Let's be honest, you know, we've seen that in the park as well. But he's gonna be there regularly. He's gonna be, I would spend so on the other day who said, yeah, he's gonna be the very regular this year. This is his shop. He can really kind of put this on his back if he wishes to and kind of go for it. And yeah, the presentation, all the elements are there from his, he's, this is their guy, you know, this is the closest they've got for somebody. And for them, it's the same thing as what we talk about here, you know, it's like, don't screw it up. You know, and then we'll see what happens in November. There's somebody away who's, what happens in the day, don't we? But the idea that this is just, oh, like he's just working some indies is not how New Japan sees it. I don't think it's how the ketchup sees it. Let's be honest about this now, 'cause I can finally do that. It's fucking great. And I don't think it's how I use it. So, yeah, this is interesting to questions in New Japan. - It was a funny line to take. Like, oh, it's just like him working in Ds or him working DDT. Like, it's clearly not. Like, there's clearly more to it than this. And like, you know, it's hopefully that, you know, listen, the guy should be happy, right? Like, he should be happy with what he's doing. He should feel fulfilled at his job. And if he thinks he's not getting the opportunity to ZAW that he deserves, then good for him, go elsewhere. I'd say the same about any talent from any promotion, right? Like, you know, move around. It's good for the business in general. - And that's the thing, right? So this, we talk about these companies in kind of very kind of rigid terms sometimes, but there are opportunities for New Japan and for these wrestlers that, you know, can't find a spot in AW or can't find, you know, the movement upwards to go and do something. So creatively, it's a fulfilling thing of having this relationship between AW and New Japan because they can go there and they can be creative. They can feel that, that different feeling. You know, Kenny can go back and have that focus on him that he can't get when he was what he would be returning in AW like the first match back, you know, the box can go there and kind of work without freedom. You've got to get, you know, we all look at hang around and go, fuck him, just cause I can get him to New Japan, please. I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to go get him. But it's like, there is an opportunity for New Japan in a way that wasn't there a few years ago because it's a blow to Boston, UW, to be this kind of creative outlet for some of these people which will benefit them. Yeah, so that's something to think about with those relationships that we don't really talk about as much. That's not a negative thing. It's not like, AW are fucking up so that these guys need to go to New Japan and it gives them another opportunity to do something like that. And to cashier, coming to the G1 was something he really wanted to do, Tony supported him on that. And it's all kind of spiral from there. But it's like, yeah, if the New Japan, it's like, yes, you are the, not the lesser of this relationship but for once you're the younger brother, essentially. But there are opportunities for you in this, which makes, you know, my transition where we're going here? That makes the Chris Charlton stuff a bit more interesting. (laughing) - I was like gonna be like, oh, they're Chris. They're Chris Charlton stuff. I don't know how much of, so how much of this audio did you listen to at all, Trisha? Were you able to listen to any of it? - I've seen clips of it. I will say a lot of it is very similar to things I've heard on more tag legal other shows. And I'm gonna pre-cursor this up. I do watch most shows in Japanese commentary and I have done for a long time. I just like to feel like the atmosphere and stuff that I don't necessarily need everything explained because if you watch like the backstage comments all the time and you're watching like their other stuff, I don't feel like I need the stories explained to me. And that's just a personal thing. I've always done that. I've done that for a long time now. But it's, so I only heard clips after, but a lot of the things that were said are very similar to what have been said before on commentary. And yeah, what did you think, what was your impression when you heard it? Like, 'cause I know like, you know, you don't see a lot of this stuff. So, and you're coming in as particularly an AW viewer which would have been a lot of, you know? - I did not think very highly of Charlton after Wrestle Kingdom. I was like, Jesus Christ, like, I didn't feel like he was really adding a lot. And, you know, everybody has their preferences with announcers. I can say that I am like a giant announcer person. Like, I like the announcers. I like some of the times a tone of voice will just irritate me for no reason. I felt like Charlton wasn't adding a lot and he was sort of, there was just, it felt like to me like there was just a lot of screaming. And then it got so much worse on Sunday. And I think one of the things that is getting missed by people who maybe didn't listen to his commentary or just kind of going off of like one comment is how this was a thing that was going on throughout the entire show. This was not just Kenny Omega's match. This was not just like a one-off comment about Tony Khan being a money mark. There was constant negativity towards any AEW wrestler throughout the whole show. He started with, you know, he was going on about how AEW says it's where the best wrestle, but you can't do anything if you haven't been in a new Japan ring. He said Shabbata had gone into business for himself during his last new Japan exhibition match. And so, you know, he wasn't good at it. But hey, I mean, these things are true. Like I'm not saying they're not true, but I'm also kind of like, do I need to take, do I need to hear this now? Like I, you know, he was talking about, he was saying, the stuff he was saying I thought that really kind of went over the line was like the talents. He was talking about how AEW had stolen a new Japan talent and he was saying that they paid Okada millions of dollars to be a meme on the internet. Like he's flat out said that at one point I was like, Jesus Christ, like you could have that opinion. But is that the kind of thing you want to say at this point? Like Okada's not even on the fucking show. Like it wasn't building to anything, right? So it was just like, it was a lot. - No, there is an element on the Okada thing that Suji is doing a story of using that. But then you need to say like, this is Suji's thing to make it a character thing. - Didn't, it was very difficult. And then during, you could tell once Rocky joined the commentary booth, I felt like, and I could be totally wrong about this. There were a couple of comments that Charlton made and the audio would just go silent for like an extended period of time. And part of me was like, is he getting an earful? Like did he get told to turn off his mic so he could get told to calm down? Like it was absolutely like it just got really bad. And then during the Kenny match, it just got out of control. And like some of it I do believe, and I believe this. Like I believe some of it is him trying to build on the whole Kenny Omega, you know, Gabe Kid feud. But he was saying what Gabe Kid had been saying and it didn't come across as like, part of the story. Like there wasn't a detachment there. Like there is sometimes with the best announcers where they're, they're healing it up but they're also detached in a way. He was just like Kenny is not new Japan. Kenny is an executive. That's the reason he got this match. And Rocky is next to him going, well no, you know, Kenny's done a lot for new Japan. Kenny really, you know, has had a big new Japan career. Like clearly trying to get the guy back on track and he just was not stopped. So like this is the part where I appreciate that folks are frustrated that he got suspended. And I understand that, but this was not a question of like a one comment thing. It was a whole, whole thing that was an eye-utrich. And hopefully anybody who listens to this knows that I am not a stand-up for your AEW person. Like criticize the fucking company. And quite frankly, if it had been funny or interesting or something I wanted to listen to, I would have been like, yeah, that is funny. That's a good line. Go ahead, like Nigel sometimes. He says some of the craziest fucking shows. I was like, yeah, that's funny. I don't agree with that, but it's a good line. This was not funny. It was not interesting. It did not add to the match. In fact, most of the time it was detracting from it because like you're in the middle of Kenny versus Gabe and Charlton screaming about how Bryce is a AEW referee. Like screaming about it. And it's just like, dude, like, could we calm down for two seconds? Like, I'm trying to focus on what's fucking going on in the ring. It's like, sometimes in sports in the UK, you have the option where you can just turn the commentary off and it's like, you might have been fed for a while. Yeah, so I haven't even seen part of comments, especially with time and, you know, but I think there's some really important things to know on this one. So, yeah, the line coming from New Canada is suspended for two months. We were kind of doing this, what they would do because, so the sixth is a huge return to work day. This is where we say like the crowds at the fourth to the fifth is that we're going to be so different because everybody goes back to where, you know, which hometown or whatever, and then they go to work on the same. And there was a visible change. You can see in like the transport, everything after that. So he does have a shoot job sort of thing and he has a job outside where he would, so there was no guarantee that he would be working dash anyway, but it was quite obvious, lay on just coming back from dash that he was pulled. And then we have the news, you know, that he thinks it's been over two months and then we'll sleep in there. Yeah, he's made these kind of comments before. It sounds like he's made them in a lot more kind of vitriol with time and a lot more kind of frequently. My idea of his, so it was a sense that he's trying to do an angle, especially with like Kenny Omega, who's doing the kind of, you know, like, coming back and doing the job boxy roll. This is kind of similar to how we talk about with primos, right? So if you don't put over your opponent in some ways, then what are you beating? It's the same thing, it's a Jericho thing, right? And that's how it kind of feels to me. And like I get that they say they're pushing upwards in a way, but there was no benefit to that. Then you add in that Kenny Omega is the save of this show. There are, and we still don't have this confirmed, but there are a number of people that will tell you that this second date was not booked as a joint show originally, but it was booked for originally for Tanohaki's retirement. Actually, that I get in again since I've been here. And then a card and leaving was the reason why it didn't happen. And so you can say that they offered him all this money, but a card had chose to go. And by that New Japan office, and I think they were surprised all the way to the end. So even when he hired like Barry Bloom, which should have been like massive bread to kind of flag, you know, he's done. They still put up to Tanohaki took control of the company that he was going to stay. And they felt like they were caught off guard by that. Even though it seemed very obvious at that point that was going to happen. That led to them, you know, if you've got this dome show and the dome is traditionally harder in the second day, people have their routine is that sports team thing. The fourth is the important day we don't give a fuck about it. And we've seen that in the past. So, you know, the ones during the pandemic, you have 12,000, one day, 6,000, the next 50%. They looked at it this time. They wanted 75% pretty much any case, 75% in up to 16%. If you don't have Kenny Omega on that show, and you know, and that kind of investment, and whether A.W. will completely happy about it, well, it's one thing, but it's not on that show, that kind of enjoy, you put John Arty on that show, you can put JY on that showing, but kind of many different. But I'll spare that show. It's not going to draw because it's just a show. And it's not like what they feel, but that was the big draw for that. So it's like you have to be recognition, you have to have recognition as well, that Kenny is a representation of A.W. on screen. And he has chosen to support your company, whether it's his company or not. So I think it's just detrimental to go completely after A.W. in that way, whether you think it's like, oh, I'm playing up a story, it didn't come across that way. So you're even stupid, a bad commentator, or this was just like an aggression. And I can see the aggression, okay? So this relationship, like every relationship, is not perfect, okay? It's just not. And there was some tension in the build up to this show. There has been some, and it's not, okay, get this wrong. So I've seen stuff saying, you know, they wanted like Tony wanted to pull Kenny in the box after their match was announced and that sort of thing. And I only tell you like first out that that's not true, okay? It's not true from the other side. So it's like, that's not the case. In fact, I believe he was quite encouraging on some of the A.W. talent store work. Was Tony difficult in putting this card together? And here's the booking that we see A.W. The stop start that everything changes every week. Did that cause them problems and meant some people couldn't be used or planned and then come up? Yes, this was not easy, you know? There was, and because Tony's not going to sacrifice his A.W. booking for this show. Did that lead to them not having every major talent available in the way that, you know, the expectation is the other way round off the good door? Yes. All these things are true. And there are frustrations in New Japan office and in New Japan about it, absolutely. But you cannot put lead on screen. You cannot make these a public thing. You've exposed it in a way, you know that when Cody went to W.E.W. we said it exposed the kind of, it broke the, well, no, no, I've got something that was a public shock, but it broke that kind of belief that A.W. was this like all friend wrestling and everybody was together and aimed at the same thing. And this did exactly the same thing. So for anyone that doesn't kind of know what's been going on, like, it exposed it. It told you the thing that are perfect. And then it told you about some of the status of a relationship. And that can be more damaging than anything else, especially on a show where we know, yeah, how many people do we know that have never seen a New Japan movie or seen very little that bought this one because of the return of Kenny Omega? Right. Or subscribe to World. This is your first impression of this relationship for a lot of people outside of the A.W. left in the door. And this is what you saw. And this is what you heard. And that's not going to help anybody in any sense. So yeah, you have these for a stretch, but you can't put this here. This cannot be on air. And you cannot air it all the way through. And kind of, you know, it's said to be really kind of huge matches on that thing. You want to remember Kenny Omega and gay kids because of someone idiotic commentary. You don't. Whether they tell that word or whether he's, you know, yeah, he's been suspended. Whether that's a suspension that was like, we have to do this or not. And I know the comments are up people up the wrong way. I know it's up people up in A.W. wrong way. Yeah, where that pressure came from, maybe it didn't do Japan. You have this business culture here where respect is incredibly important. And you can, you know, say things outside of like a, there's a word for like two face where you have that public presentation and they failed with this public presentation. That's what happened. So what that means going forward, we don't know. But that doesn't make anyones life easier. We're going to see more people wanting to adventure to new Japan with how segment the top is in A.W. So it's important, I think, for all parties that that relationship looks strong. And unfortunately, what's happened is, is that you've exposed that and then you've made Tony look not great either, because people see it as a direct response. So you can say 100%, like, oh, it's 100% new Japan have made this decision. And but that's not how the perception is. And again, it's that perception battle, which is really not helped that. And yeah, do I believe that Tony, Tony Khan is thrilled that Kenny Omega had his return match in New Japan? No, I don't. Do I believe that he's tried to pull in from it or try to stop it? No, because that's not what the case. But it's like, yeah, he's not going to be thrilled. Yeah, they want it from that. And all this stuff about the appetizing and stuff. And, you know, he couldn't do it on max. Well, that's probably because we've never run a ticket thing on the website. We've never run a ticket thing on anything. You know, like, in New Japan is a motive about tickets. Anything else, world is one thing. But that doesn't mean you can't promote it as a live event. And we didn't do that either. So I think there's different issues here and they're all kind of being mixed up. But what I think it has done is expose some of the nature of the issues and the relationship in a way nothing else but. I think it's it's I feel for Charlton, right? If this is something that he's been doing fairly, you know, for a while, and nobody's really paid attention because it's been on stuff that people aren't watching. And then he, you know, is basically hitting his same lines on a bigger show, maybe with a little more enthusiasm. Like, I get it. I feel for the guy. But ultimately, from my perspective as somebody watching, it was unprofessional. It just was unprofessional. He didn't he didn't, like you said, he didn't talk about, you know, I can't imagine Excalibur saying, well, you're in New Japan, but you haven't really experienced anything until you've been on American TV. And that going over. Well, it wasn't with the green line, isn't it? It's like, it just felt like, like from that perspective, for me, it's unprofessional. It didn't add anything to the matches. It didn't make the matches better. I wasn't expecting nothing was being explained to me. I felt like I was reading Reddit comments from like the worst fucking wrestling websites. Like it was just, I was like, what the fuck is happening here? So like from that perspective, like I said, if it had been entertaining or interesting or informative, who gives a shit if it wasn't nice? But it was none of those things. And so on that regard, I feel bad for the guy, but I can envision like, I kind of feel like he should be suspended. Like, I don't think it's an outrageous response. And I do feel a little, I do feel a little bit bad because I feel like this, like you said, it's a situation where people are right now very happy to jump on Tony Khan for a lot of things. Some of them justified, please. But I don't feel like this one is something that he even had to make a comment on. Rocky was sitting next to him the whole fucking night. And Rocky was sure shit didn't sound like he was happy, you know? Like that's just not, I can't envision any profession, any workplace where I can talk that level of shit about an employer's partner, right? My boss's partner and wrestlers that are in the ring that like I'm selling, like you said, I'm trying to sell tickets to this match, like, I guess not. So in that regard, I feel bad for the guy. And like you said, it has brought up tensions, but you're always going to have tensions when you have an inter-promotional situation. That's why a lot of promotions shy away from this stuff. They have different aims, you know? They have different aims, different priorities. They change in AEW. They change four times a day. That's where there is like a huge difference here. So New Japan goes very much on a long-term planning sort of thing. And AEW is much more house-on-fight. So there is always going to be that kind of flash in that style, especially in recent years. And I think that's just normal. But it's not like this big, like, sort of, it's not like this kind of big referendum on anyone when you do. It's just, it's like a style splashing away in terms of booking mentality. And you're going to have friction in that regard. And that's all we have to in terms of that. Yeah, it was unprofessional. I think I agree with you completely that that should have been the thing. I thought that, you know, when I said at the start, the way it was described to me by somebody here that's massive movement. Did they look at that this weekend with like a sample of New Japan? And I think if you saw that as a first-point thing in your AEW fan, rather than being welcomed in, rather than being kind of brought in and kind of, well, you know, come and watch our product too. You love this product. It kind of made me send people away. It made me feel like there was an animosity. There was like, you know, it's not gatekeeping, but it's kind of like this is a closed door. Yeah. I don't think that's healthy for New Japan either. Yeah. It probably doesn't make a huge difference because if you've got certain names on there, you're going to bring that fan base in. Maybe that's what Kenny Omega is. But again, it's just those little things. They can be off-putting and that can be a difference maker. So, yeah, it's one of these now. It just felt, it felt in small time. It felt like something you'd get from like GCW or something. Like, New Japan is better than that. Like, come on. It's not that much. It's actually not that much difference from what we were talking about with GCW last time. Yeah. We did these proper shows. We had a great time with some of them. So, I'm not. We did. We caused chaos. But it's like, last time we did one of these school shows, we talked about GCW and ethics comments. And it's not too dissimilar in a lot of ways. But this is supposed to be, you know, this is not an independent recipe for motion. This is a promotional plus 25k in a copy of it. So, yeah, it's just, it's a shame. And I think there was, it's funny because it, there was some really funny things that week that I kind of kept noticing where it kind of felt like you could tell in a weird way. So, this promotion thing, right. When you come to Japan, if you buy a ticket for Dynasty, the Russell Dynasty, which the name, by the way, comes from New Japan, not Dynasty's American Take a View, it was the name they were originally going to get the show at MSG. Thank you, Chris, again, for reminding us. Yep. You would not know that AEW was part of it. Okay, Kenny is presented in ricochet because they were the two powerful and powerful. They were on the posters and things. They are presented with New Japan Power. Every poster that you see says New Japan, she nearly represents New Japan presents. There is no mention of AEW. It's not like, the best thing was, there's actually, there's two moments that I nearly, I died laughing at the way. So, they bring up this huge, like, side screen when it comes up at Dynasty, and it's just like New Japan Pro Wrestling, Russell Dynasty. Not, not doing it. And then later they did the VR for like all the shows, because it was coming year. And they also like AEW, New Japan present, and I just didn't laugh my head off. Oh, my God. But yeah, this has not been presented as a doing show. Not in Japan at all. And it hasn't moved AEW. Now, they don't put anything about it on their website. They're not promoting tickets for it. They didn't promote Kenny's return map. And I can get an element of the WBD story in terms of, if you were WBD, would you want to be promoting Kenny Omega going back anyone else in a service that's not yours? No, I get that. Do I believe it's fully when they promote What's Ring of Honor paper views all the time, or other things or not? No, I don't. I think maybe there's an element to that, but I think it's in cheap proper. Because this has been this weird kind of switch between where it's an AEW show, so it's fine that Kenny Omega's coming back there. When it's not an AEW show, it's a New Japan present show using AEW talent. So it went for the doors. And then this thing of, you know, it's not an AEW show and we can't promote it. So there's this kind of cross between the two that's been really interesting. And I don't think, whatever the reason, I don't think it's helped anybody enough aspect. Obviously, New Japan is quite with the attendance. They're talking about if they go around a show without New Japan with AEW again, it would be like in a smaller place. But this was not a joint show. This was not presented as a joint show. Whether you have the politics of working out who was going to do what, fine. But this was presented in the New Japan set in Japan. So as much as you walk a bit and say, okay, so what does New Japan do for the indoor? And there's a huge difference. So New Japan, one, you'll find it on our website. Two, we just talked about it on their videos. Three, they run lots of interviews and that sort of thing there. They actually run a preview program where they preview all the matches and explain people that you may not have seen previously. They run kind of lots of press in the last week. They put all the old matches on the world of a lot of competitors. I remember them going nuts at Adam Pektoro and Paige, like in the Forbidden Door One as well, like that. So they actually do a whole lot more of other little bits of promotion. And this is a show that's only going to get 5,000 pay-per-viewed laptops in Japan because it's at 9 a.m. on a Monday morning. It's not the same. And why they made them decisions, who they made them decisions? That's up to them. I do think it's a missed opportunity and you do need to now promote Kenny's return and make that big deal out of it. Do it opposite of what you did when they had the match of Will Osprey when you ignored that as well? Yeah, they can't do that. I do decisions now. Yeah, you've made these decisions now. Kenny's made these decisions. Whatever was happened here, you don't have to build off that. So don't ignore it. Like, okay, so you can't promote it. You couldn't promote it previously, I think, as thoughts or whatever. You need to use it now and use it for your advantage because you should be getting that off this thing. This Kenny Omega thing is like, it felt like the biggest thing in the world because it was. And now it's about how you translate that. So don't worry about anything else. Just worry about how you translate that. And how you translate that for full timing is not to put a Jeff Jarrett or a pig. Oh my God, the timing of that, Trish. Waking that match and then seeing a tweet, Jeff Jarrett will appear and will speak live. And you're just like, Jesus fucking Christ. And I don't have anything against. And I feel like I say this every episode. I don't have any issue with any of these guys on a vacuum. And I don't want to get into the trope of being like ex-WWE because it's not about WWE or not WWE. It's about freshness. It's about people feeling free exposure. It's about authenticity. It's about watching a show and thinking, hey, this is cool. And not saying this is stupid. Why are they doing this? Right? Like, just the parade of old people, it's getting to be exhausting. And Jeff Jarrett getting a live mic in the middle of the ring. Multiple weeks in a row, right? Coming off of that world. You know that Jeff Jarrett has had more live promo times than J-White and Hangman. Yes. That's what I was about to say. Like, they don't have any fucking promo time for them. And you're giving it to Jeff fucking Jarrett? Again, this is your best option to bring in young people, to bring in new viewers. Like, you're on max now. So let's do what? Oh, The Rock 'n Roll Express and Jeff Jarrett and Adam Copeland and Christian Cage and Chris Jericho. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I get it and I'm not opposed to any of these things. If there was something interesting happening. But how many incredible young wrestlers do you have sitting in the fucking back scrambling to get two minutes of a pre-tape? While you trot out fucking guys whose best days were 20 years ago. It's just, I don't get it. I'm tired of it. I'm baffled by it. I know that I should make my peace with it and come to an acceptance. Like, this is what it is. This is what Tony wants. These are his guys, right? Like, these are his guys. They're not, it's not, it's Danielson. It's punk. It's Sting. It's Samoa Joe. It's Adam Copeland. It's Christian Cage. It's not Kenny. It's not fucking, you know, it's Osprey Fine for now. Like, but it's like, what the fuck? Like, what the fuck? Like, has anyone gotten successful using older guys? Like, did TNA do a really good job in good business using old XW? I don't think so, Trish. I think I've heard a couple stories about how TNA didn't do a good job with that. Like, come on. Like, I think that was the, that was the difficult part about going, you know, seeing collision and being like, all day Sunday, I was like, all right, I'm going to watch Wrestle Kingdom. And then I'm going to watch Wrestle Dynasty. And then I'm going to watch collision. I'll get caught up on collision. And every time I went on Twitter, there's a clip, I'm watching a pre tape video. Moxley is in a balaclava, tying up the rock and roll express with duct tape. Like, I'm, I'm all set. I'm going to go back and watch Kenny's match again. Oh, he's fucking dude. He's like, he's fucking dude. Like, like, I'm going to skip this one, guys. Oh, Christopher Daniels is beating up hangman. I think I'm going to, I think I'm going to be Kenny's match back on. Like, like, okay, sure. Like, that's what you want to do, buddy. You go right ahead. I'm going to spend my time and my money on something else. No, it reminds me of, like, when I used to watch a New Japan show and then watch a Triple H over after it and realized that I should have watched it. The other way. Yeah, you know, I think that it's so jarring. And they have so many people that are over exposed. So I don't want to use the word age over again. It's exposure to you. It's exposure. I'm not fresh. Who have been at the same spot for years and years and years. And there is no advantage to putting on there. And you can say the audience has changed. And I know a lot of people have spotted the reaction to, you know, the face off with Jericho and Copeland and the crowd, you know, the crowd that was 3,000, you know, they did 7,000 with the 5B5 with hangman and the Dark Order versus the Elite. That crowd went nuts for it. So that audience has changed. Where have those 4,000 gone that would have gone nuts for the original matches? Where have they gone? Where have you run them off to? That's where you've lost viewers. That's not about punk, it's not about living else. But that's the way. But yeah, the audience has changed. But the audience is changing to the product that you present. And all for the last year and for us. And as long it's been, these guys are more important than our guys. Yep, we're going to give them the right time. We're going to give them the chance. They're going to be featured. They're going to be promoted. And they're going to get the key wins and key slots. Okay, fine. See, see what you want about Ricochet. He's doing something different. He fucking is doing something different. It's interesting. I'm intrigued by it. I want to watch it. It's different. It's not something he's done before. Yeah, so what they're doing with that is clever. So as much as you look like a geek for the first bit, you then do the next angle, you turn that around. But the people that are working with Famio in that story was struggling to hurt business. And we're Washington, I think that's the major role. Their understanding is very much that you can't come in and just be WWE superstar Ricochet. No. You need to create your own character. That's that freshness. People that come in from WWE that are successful in AEW and feel fresh are the ones that do something different, like it's worth struggling, like a Tony Store, you know? Like a fucking John Moxley in 2019. Who is now regressed to 2018 WWE Style Storytelling, which is in period. It hurts, it hurts so much. It really does hurt. It's adorable feeling. And the way that they treated, you know, and because J is going to match and hang on to that, you know, they've killed that hang around heel character completely because of what he's done. You know, playing the tweener shit and that. And then it's just infuriating. But this is the thing. So it's that overexposure that now I have Adam Copeland doing his WWE gimmick on screen and doing his relationship with Chrissie and Cage. And it's like, and he's the top guy in that thing. And then we've got Jeff Jarrah saying, "I'm doing for a title." And it's just like, you have so many of these incredible wrestlers who were at the Peter, the top of the form. And we're doing TNA-tree tribute acts. That's what this is. This is the most TNA that he probably ever felt. Because it doesn't feel justified. Are you telling me that pushing Jeff Jarrah on TV is going to get you more of a response than 20 minutes with Orange Graphity? Is that what you're telling me? Are you telling me that Adam Copeland can achieve more than Kenny Omega? But we've seen that. Now we've got all of the data to prove that. That's fucking bollocks. But that's what you're telling the viewer. You're telling the people that these people are more important. And you did that exactly. What did I say about this fucking four way? Well, I didn't want to talk about World's End because fuck it. Over the real criminal classic. -We said it. -We said it. -It was the end for Copeland's turn. -It was true. Yeah. And if you do that, you can fuck off. Because what you did was, "Oh, we're doing this story to elevate the young guys." We're fucking not. All we do is keeping the status quo. Right? It's the same people. It's not changed the world. It's changed the world fucking back. It's like, "Oh, we're keeping all our spots." "Oh, private party got elevated, they got the belts." And then the bucks, they're going to be in the eternal talk. Tell us that that was never planned for them to get those belts. So we did this beat down on them. Well, we made them look like complete geeks. And it wasn't going to have a payoff. So, yeah, that was greatly rewarding. Well done for that. And then we got back to it. And now they've not been elevated anyway, because it's still the same guys in the same thoughts. And then we take Adam Page, and we take the most interesting kill carrots are coming out of there. And rather than elevating him, we just fucking de-emphasize him for three months. And now he has to start again. And now he's going to be up by a fucking suit. Trish! After taking three orange punches. And like-- Oh, doctorate. What the fuck? Don't even get me started in the Trish. My Trish. Who is your biggest babyface faction in AEW right now? Yes, and this is a spoiler because like, Tom will talk like-- Yes, they came up with this idea of this, this is something they put together. And I'm like, holy shit, this is their biggest fucking babyface faction. Their biggest babyface faction is undisputed era. In fucking 2025 in AEW. An NXT gimmick that AEW pulverized is the biggest babyface faction. And a babyface leader that people don't like. And they did the fucking reunion in Orlando in the home NXT market. And nobody give a fuck. Boom! What are you doing? So you had someone like the conglomeration. And you take him out of that and put him into this. So Adam and Cole can still do the same gimmick that he's been doing for the last 10 years and the same promos. And it's like how backwards is this? That is your number one babyface faction right now. Yeah, but there's no bigger faction. No, undisputed era. Like, shake your fucking self, right? When Kenny walks in that room tomorrow or tomorrow for me anyway, 'cause it's Tuesday. Give yourself a fucking shake and work it out. I don't care who it pisses off. I don't care, you know, 'cause that's been the basis of a lot of the stuff this year. You know? And it's like, you're my funny thing that's right. I'm getting that. I've said enough today. I mean, I think it took quite a bit. I actually sound like I actually know things, which is very rare, 'cause I really don't. But when John Marksie came back and the basic premise was this shit sucks. I'm gonna sort it out. And then you do what you're doing. And then people criticize it. And you cut promos and you say to people that then comes through on others, you know, on fucking whatever. Oh, they just don't understand it. No, John, we do understand it. We just think it fucking sucks. And we think it's with dominating people in the meantime. You may have a beginning. You may have an end. Hell, the end is looking pretty, wishy-washy at the moment. And you're gonna be able to do that. Or is Kenny Omega gonna do exactly the same thing in 2020? And then for the biggest baby face in the fucking company. And you're gonna wreck that. You have the biggest fucking heel on the company. You've already wrecked that. Are you gonna continue to look sideways and close your eyes and, you know, look like Naito when he can't see fucking anything? Or are you gonna switch and not worry about if it pisses somebody off, because it's the right thing to do for the company. I think it's interesting that even like the way it likes to sort of rust up, have broken from kind of talking around it. You know, normally he does that thing where he talks around something where he goes, oh, I think this will happen, but he knows it's me. And he's like, yeah, they're gonna go, you know, moxied to Darby to Christian. And it's a shit idea. So there's obviously pressure now on this. But the idea like, oh, we're gonna put Jay White, you know, I've got to say, I'll put Jay White at a grand slam and then Copeland at Revolution. And that's the whole thing where you'll basically say, we don't think Jay White's on our level to me. You know, and we've not given the opportunity to do so, because I bet you Adam Copeland is gonna get far more promo time in this program than any of those guys got the last one. Or we'll get going forward. And yeah, and this is that thing about structure. But do I think Adam Page could deliver more numbers-wise or anything else and Adam Copeland, absolutely. We've seen that. Do I be looking at him? Yes, that's it. Do I believe Squirtle can go? Yes. You know, even when we'll ask for him to get there, he will get there. I'm not worried about Will Osprey. If you see a man get an hour of TV time on a pay-per-view, right, and get every opportunity to wrestle the way that he wants to and get promoted and get merch and guys and everything else, there is no worry about Will Osprey. Will Osprey is a chosen one? He will get there. He will get his spot. You don't need to worry about him. He's not wrestling with one hand behind his fucking back like some of these other guys are. I was just gonna talk about me. No, I just think for me- I'm not criticizing AEW for anything that they haven't been capable of doing before, okay? They have been able to integrate veterans and people who might have been a little stale with younger people and more interesting people, right? They've been able to, you know, handle stuff like multiple, like, I'm not someone who looked at this storyline with Max from the beginning. You know this. If you listen to the show, you know this. I was higher on this than anybody else was. A lot of people were at the beginning. I was like, this could be really fucking interesting. Where are they gonna go with this? The Trevor Dame said this. They've gone nowhere. There were a ton of cool places they could have gone with this. They've gone nowhere. I don't know if this is a similar situation, what happened with the EVP angle, where we got cold feet and we backed off from it. Who the fuck knows? But it's not working. Look yourself in the fucking mirror and tell me that this is working. Tell me that this is good. And I don't want some backstage excuse or some meta thing. Well, they have to do this for so-and-so and they have Grand Slam in Australia coming up so they have to have this person and they have to just, no, fuck that shit. Is it good? 'Cause it's not. It's not. It's not good. It's not interesting. It's not compelling. It's fucking Tikitack bullshit. You can do better than this. Stop listening to some of these people suggesting this shit. Where's Darby? If Darby is your end game, why is he not out there racking up? Wins and taking on guys. Like, he's got fucking written off and thrown down. You've beaten up every single fucking babyface. Like Trish said, instead of New Japan where they elevated their babyfaces, they made their babyfaces look cool and awesome, you are making your babyfaces look like fucking dumbasses. You used to not do this. Why are you doing this now? Yep. And I don't like this concept you think. But they were so successful at the start of new finish with the high and we have our babyfaces being smart. And all they did in that last cycle was these guys are fucking dumb and they're not worthy as much as an Adam Copeland. Right. Adam Copeland, FTR, are going to be more important in saving the Soul of A.W. And this whole Soul of A.W. stuff is complete. That's a bollocks. It's bollocks. And all it does is make them look small. It doesn't help them. I got to say this because our friend Crudler had a phenomenal, phenomenal quote on the Soul of A.W. stuff. He said it's late stage capitalism brand identity bullshit as a wrestling angle. That's a yes. Fucking genius. So spot on. It's so spot on. Yeah, they just need to fix it. And the thing is it takes away. So you have the C2, which culminated really, really well. Yep, awesome. And then it did the year before because you had lesson talents and you took JY and Hang went out of the C2. You know, because everyone wants to talk about plans. Well, this was not the powerful world then. This was a change, right? So you take them out. So you lose star power out of that tournament. You don't present that tournament as the biggest one you showed like you did last year. And consequently, it felt less important. So yes, it had a great finish. But it never felt like it did just the previous year. The lack of promo time also hurt it significantly. Yeah. Yeah, we didn't get that feeling that you get. And I also think that reminds me of how like, like a well-walled machine like New Japan, I would like things like the D1. But you don't realize how much to do that every single year and to get a response every single year and to sell what the tickets they do every year. It's a huge achievement when you see this done like this. So yeah, great finish. For the finished tournament was great. But the way the presentation was hurt by being underneath this house of torture. Fucking bullets. And you know what? House of torture did a better job with House of torture bollocks this week than they did. Right? That evil Tanahashi match with a better match. The four way that included JY Orange Cassidy, Adam Page of John Moxley. Explain that to me. Well, then you do this. And then someone said it's a four way. So they're allowed the interference. It's like, this is WWE 2018 nonsense. It was awful. It was awful. It was such a bad match. Aw. You want to talk about your identity and your saving your identity. This is not AW as we recognize it. This was not what attracted us to AW. This is not a good type of heat. You know, there's always talk about, you know, with the books talking about, oh, we toned down our style when people said they had bad matches. No, no, it ain't they. So they had boring matches as in they weren't doing flying maneuvers. They were cutting back their offense because just like Hangman is doing, like where he doesn't do his moon soul. You do that. You slow things down to get the baby face cheered. This Moxley isn't getting the baby faces cheered. All it's doing is making them look like fucking deeps. That's WWE 2018. That was exactly what this company was built to not happen. You watch the audience fucking loves Hangman. They have made him look like a fucking idiot and unimportant. The audience loves Orange Cassidy. They have made him look like a fucking idiot and unimportant, right? The audience loves fucking Darby. They have made him look like an idiot and unimportant, right? What am I supposed to get invested in? I don't give a shit about the rock and roll express. I don't fucking care about fucking FTR. What, I'm sorry, FTR, they haven't even wrestled lately. The one thing you can say about FTR is they're good wrestlers, right? The character work is shitty. Their promos are repetitive. They're really good wrestlers. They're great in the ring. Haven't seen them doing much of that. Tag division is fucking dead. So it's like, what am I doing here? That's the part where it's just like, I don't know. I'm annoyed because I didn't want to complain this much because I'm tired of complaining, but it was hard. I'm tired of complaining. It was hard to watch Wrestle Dynasty and see and feel the excitement for Kenny and feel the excitement for the Bucks, quite frankly, and watch something as emotional as, you know, Tana Hashi crying or Naito versus Haromu, right? And or even see what was Shoda versus Zack, which was kind of a mess, but you kind of were like, well, they put those guys out there. Like they went for their shot. They gave him the spot, yep. They gave him the spot. They went for it. It didn't work. They put them out there. But then to see guys that AEW has had under contract for fucking years and has not used, and New Japan being like, not a problem. And yes, do I get that it's a little bit easier for them? Do I get that some of the pressures off, that they have the freedom to be able to do this? Absolutely I do. But it's hard to watch somebody like Kenny get that kind of presentation and that kind of treatment and realize like, yeah, if he wants to stay in Japan, I get it, right? To look at the Bucks being treated like fucking gods and be like, yeah, I get it. If they want to fucking keep going back to Japan, I get it. Like, you know, to Keshta to see them roll out the fucking, like you said, roll out the red carpet and be like, yeah, hey, why wouldn't you fucking want to go there? Like he's not getting, she's going to stand behind Don Kals. And I get it. Like, I don't want to hear about like, like I said, I'm tired of the meta excuses. They've done this before better. I'd like to see it done better. I get that you can't do a hard reset. I don't want any Vince Russo bullshit, but there's a lot of small changes that they could fucking start with tomorrow. Okay, that would not be that easy, difficult to implement. One of them is a fucking plan. This week to week booking bullshit has to stop. And they say they've got plans like going in the summer, but then there's also the ability that you have to pivot when it's not working. And this isn't working. So you have to pivot and have your long-term and then you build your second plan, right? How much cooler would it be right now with Kenny Omega coming back if Swerve was still fucking champion, right? At the top of his game, if hanging in, right? And fucking Darby was a champion right now or Orange Cassidy. Like, can he coming in like a fucking killer? How incredible would that feel? I know there are a lot of people who you already have that history built in. You have that up there, right? You don't even need to work for it. Like, you don't even have to work for it. It's sat there. I think a lot of this, what this is, right? Rather than, yeah, I don't want to complain. And I think there's, we have an apathy now to it in a way. I'm developing the apathy that we did with, how often Harris have brought this up, but I thought it would be really good for it. But I developed an apathy that I had for TNA, for WWE, where you just have that acceptance. I think this is how it has to be. Yeah, we brought in to the fact that they could be more. And that's the frustration is we know that it could be more because we've seen it. But now you, they are just a wrestling company. And maybe we should not get so frustrated at the wasting of talent or these sort of things, because it's like we've seen in every of a wrestling company in the world. But it's really hard not to. It's really hard not to get. And it's like, you get emotionally invested in this stuff when you tell yourself not to, and then you get that disappointment. And that's not a healthy feeling. Because that's not the point that I wanted to see. It's just disappointment. And I think, hey, you're telling myself, just like, I need to just, you just need to step back and just go, just tell a little show that I can show. It doesn't matter that, you know, tapings are a complete mess of chaos. And it's amazing that you got to show on TV half the time that's occurring. It's not like none of this stuff should matter. It just just wants to go and they'll be good. They'll be bad. It's not. Yeah, it's not. They'll be still being 1999, but it's not also even AEW in 2020. No. Be with themselves. Yeah, it's the same issues. It'll continue. The max debut in terms of the look in a smaller building looked like really, really good. Yes, yes. You, you know, you'll get some that maybe feel that it's too polished because the rawness of AEW was something that was attractive. But at least they turned the bloody lights on. These wrestling look like dark rooms, like for the last year have not been great. So that was much better. You know, visually you have a product, but you then need everything to support that. And that's the bit they've got to fix. So the smaller buildings, the smaller buildings are definitely working for them. Like that was a good choice. That was a good call. It was a good call. It was the right call, you know, take the ego out of it and just recognize where you are as a product. That was, yeah, it was the right thing to do. And, you know, you can keep your big houses or try and generate your big houses for the pay for the use. You know, you're running a stable set up for revolution. You're running all in. You're running from Vindor somewhere in London, probably O2, but we'll see the ones so that we can take their dates there. So yeah, do that. And, yeah, it's still we can do, you know, but you have to recognize that from a booking side as well. Not just a lot of them side. And Trish, the rock, the rock is back. So we're going to have some things to talk about regardless. That will be maybe a little fresher than, uh, well, you know, so, you know, like when we started the power struggle stuff, and everyone was like, yeah, no, you're just targeting something for WWE because you want to say something bad about them because of AWR now. That was, that was an actual complaint, right? We're just hilarious because, you know, we, we run down, we run for AEWs issues more importantly anybody, but try and do it, you know, with, with reason. But yeah, so there was some hilarious, so we had some, we did the interviews last time when we talked about some of the hilarious line. And all of a sudden there's like, oh, we're going to, we're leaking a company block, it could be Roman versus Pump. And all of a sudden it can be Cody versus Cena. And they're continuing for the main event of the night. And all these things. And there's multiple articles coming out, but, but this could all change under the threat of the rock. Because the rock is the ultimate bad guy. The rock is the terminal. Yeah, the rock's going to come back and he's going to ruin everything. And it like, it was great actually. It was getting like to the point where it's just like rock bad, rock bad, triplage good, that was it. And then all of a sudden it was like, kind of rocks back. Oh yeah, and we'll find out, you know, this show goes on in a few hours. Yeah, we're, it's all changing now. And all your little kind of movement and everything like that. It doesn't fucking matter. Triple H from Go on Sports Illustrated podcast with the guy that did the SNME kind of media run for them. Yep. And talk, yeah. And if you can, like I said, I have a great relationship with Dwayne and all those things. Dwayne cares about WWE. He wants to do what's best for WWE. Yeah, he wants to do what's best, which is a loaded comment. Very similar to what I did last year. But then it's like, okay, so you're still a little brother in this, because back it's going to be wherever he wants, whatever he wants. I need to get a drink, do you? I'll take over. No, it was just fascinating. And Justin Barraso, who had one of the articles that we talked about in our last episode discussing the threat of the rock, had another one today where it was like, well, Dwayne's coming back, is he going to destroy everything? And the other interesting thing about, as you said, Trish pointed out that the, I don't think we talked about this last time, the Saturday night main event was a disappointing number. And WWE did their typical, like, let's tweet something out that will counter it. And they went with a relatively new person who then got an interview with Triple H, so shockingly. But yeah, in the interview with Triple H, apparently Triple H pointed out that he had six months, or he had planned the WrestleMania card from October. Those plans had been in place from October. But it would change if the rock came back. And so, yeah, that's where we're at now. I'm fascinated. There's going to be so many more fucking leaks. There's going to be so much more coming out during this WrestleMania season. Their ticket sales are starting to soften a little bit. Not necessarily for everything tonight's show is an obviously big one, but there's some other stuff that the holiday tour, they had some soft dates on that holiday tour. So it'll be interesting to see how they play, and if the knives start to come out more, if things start to get worse for them. But they will do, because you've got spots coming in and out and everywhere. And then there's other things on the outside as well, so public pressures. Right. I think we have to mention as well that you've had playing the stories around Nick Khan in the last month, with Lee fixing. The story that came out about Lee's being there. And there's been some denials of thinking that he would not know. It's pretty obvious that he obviously did know when he hired him. And the same with other people that have hired previously. So there's no, I think one person wrote a really, really good bit about how the culture has not been changed whatsoever. So that's free as well. So I do say, if you go to economics, have a read of that, that's a fantastic summary of all these issues. And then we have the stuff with Skip Bayless just coming out this week. Yep. All these people are around Nick Khan. So this is something where culturally he has, there's an acceptance, it feels like. And that's something kind of happening around the outside. And then yeah, you have this power struggle. You're bringing back Hulk Hogan as well. That's not going to make any better. Goldberg's talking about what he wants to do for his brother. He's out there making lots of sorts of noise. So it will make money in terms of the destination shows this year, right? Yes. The WrestleMania is that sort of thing. But, and then after that, well, they look at, it's like, you are now doing all the things. And this maybe is just for sustaining what you've got on top. The, didn't get you back off. You got back off people that were fresh, right? Cody was fresh to the company. And you've had that kind of thing that because he came from AEW. Some of his aim was fresh in that role. And fresh character, you know, that then infused the bloodline. Then you have other people coming up through that you're pushing that Ian shows more. So do back and forth and come in and you can step up. You know, you can bring in people from outside like punk or whatever to do that role. You've got gum for coming up. You've got, yes, me will. So it built off that and it built off. This is our generation, right? This is not the attitude area. And this is not ruthless aggression. This is not 28 2008 WWE. This is our era. And now we're regressing. And we're regressing very, very quickly. That's going to be a challenge. And that will maybe not show up in the next year as much. Even with the price gouging and everything else. And we're seeing some, yeah, we are seeing some stabilization now. And it maybe will hold because of these things that they are never the long term solution and it will hurt them. The same old as walk, shoot, bullshit will hurt them. Yeah. It's already Santa hurt. So that is what happens here. So these are risks and these are the sort of things that maybe you have to do because you're a publicly traded company and you need the next big risk. Same way that they put the role on one's out. You know, because they're a publicly traded company, that guarantee of that money, which will be much more than they can grow to the US. Makes that viable. You know, will there be any real pushback about it? Probably not, you know, but it's a huge move and a bit of momentum and that. But it's that thing of they will just do these things because they constantly need to be progressing upwards. But in the longer term, in the next few years, you're actually undercutting it. And it's the same thing we talk about AEW. Well, you can stabilize at these numbers. I don't think they often do not, but you can stabilize at these numbers like now by using all these old guys on top and getting the recognition from people that may have sent them a degree, or you can develop and become something else and potentially reverse to try them with the 18th of April. Which are you picking? This is that on a much bigger degree. The demo of all the politics involved in that were these huge egos amongst all of them. So yeah, it's going to be a mess. I'm really looking forward to it. We'll see what happens with the role on Netflix and I. Netflix have really patrol. That's where it's all on the front page. We'll see how that continues. We'll start to get an idea in kind of next few weeks of the figures. And how that kind of works out. I mean, we'll work out new normals. The idea of saying like, there's no data points and we can't work about that. We'll work out new normals and we can work from there. There will be data points that come available. You won't see it every week. There shouldn't be this weekly kind of focus on some of these numbers because you were trying to still currently interpret what they mean. So if you're looking at every number and going, oh, good bad or that, we're different. We don't really know yet. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know how this kind of movement and the switch between a little in here and streaming is going to affect things. But what I do want to say just before we wrap up on that, I think we're going to end up doing like we're moving a lot of stuff to like next time. So I've kept all your questions. We will go through them, but we just have so much to discuss today with this thing. But the key for AEW in particular with Macs is not always like the live viewership on Macs. It's that they have such loyalty that WBD believes that it will bring loyal viewers to Macs because of AEW. That's their level of importance. So it may not be in terms of advertising or anything like that. And that's still important for their role on, you know, TBS, which with thankfully lowering is, you know, often dynamite is the most important show on their way that week. But it's more this Mac still and the reason they got so much money on that side is their loyalty factor in the pay per use. If that converts across and that's huge for that visit, that is where they're important like now. It's not the same. We can't look at this in the same way that we did. And we can't extrapolate T earlier. We shouldn't be extrapolating all cell TV numbers into pay per view by either. We need to adapt in the way we think about that now and use the datasets available to spot the trends. So that's all this is about flooding trends. It's not about judging every single thing or fun thing. You can do that once you have the trends in place. So yeah, there's needs to be new thinking now. It's going to be a new challenge. And we're going to see how everyone presents themselves. They've got six hours of WBD mainline television. And that's going to be a challenge. And it's a challenge everyone else because it consumes so much time. We'll see if the benefit of having just collision and dynamite helps with them as well. So it's a very changeable time. And I think it's really difficult to say what the future holds right now from that. And I don't think we can. We've got to sit back. We've got to assess and we've got to look at everything. It's something new Japan essentially as well. They're in a different part of their cycle. And we've got to look at that too. I think that's a good place to finish up. Do you have anything else? No, I think we've covered everything and even some things we didn't have to cover. Sure, but we had a pretty deep look into new Japan. And thank you for everyone that's answered my responses. People that just spoke so openly to us this way while I've been here. Maybe we should just stay in the pan. It was good. No, because I would miss you and I don't want that. Oh, you can't visit me in the pan. Bring me to the pan. You can't feel like you should tell me how she's put time and I'll think about it. Think about it. No, it's a great this is a great place to be for wrestling and the week, you know, with so many shows and everything like that is just phenomenal. The yen obviously being down is really helpful for foreign tourists. So it's just it's a great experience. And yeah, there is nothing like a dome. Five thousand a Tokyo dome. You bet there is nothing like being in that dome. So, but yeah, that'll be it. But yeah, it's nice to be back there. I have Mr. E guys. Let me just go to a quick word for a tunnel talk. Yes, as such an incredible job. Our girls fucking killed it. Our girls fucking killed it. If you haven't had an opportunity to listen to the Young Bucks interview with them, I strongly recommend it. It's fun. It's casual. It's interesting. It covers topics that I think a lot of interviewers wouldn't touch. In a really interesting way, it talks about character and gear choices. The Young Bucks get into some really fun details about different creative choices they were thinking about making and chose not to. It's just it's a fun, fun interview. It's worth taking your time. It's been aggregated to hell and back. But I'll tell you, most of the aggregation has been fucking wrong. And it's been kind of fascinating to watch people take things from the, you know, the Young Bucks decided to have matches that were bad on purpose. It's possibly the most infuriating headline I've read of 2024. But what the fuck? Yeah, we would. It's not what we both can say. It has holes. Yeah, I didn't have that on our Google card of shit in aggregation. I think the only ones we got left is Matt is a contrarian, Nick. Nick in pay-for-view days. And what was the other one? Oh, Slick Nick. Yeah. Slick Nick. Any of you have, by any of you headline writers, I don't know the queue or the other people that kind of keep an eye on me. Like, do you need to, I need a Slick Nick. Nick doesn't like to be Slick-free headline, please. We'll freeze blocks off our Bingo card of stupid headlines that we've worked out. Yes. Let me just look in one. Trish. But no, don't look. Trish and I had early access to this interview. And, you know, we were very lucky. And I popped her by coming up with a list of aggregation headlines that I assumed would come out. And many of them came true, which is fucking disturbing. I'll tell you that right now. Yeah, we were surprised. But we got the Orange Cassidy one. We were like, yeah. But no, look, they didn't ask for this. I'll say, yeah, we can say that this was put to them. And that can be a really scary thing. And it's not something that they naturally do. But, you know, having seen like the prep work that they put in, seeing how they did it to the point where they made them so comfortable that you got so much good out of that there. And, you know, the way that everything was kind of, you know, we're gonna say thanks to everybody in the network to Ridge Jeremy. Everyone to aim an idea for us. Everybody that kind of took a part in this as well, that just kind of delivered it, I think it was a real step forward to the network and headline, you know, by TunnelTalk. You know, doing the first Yumbox interview outside of the house, where it's for a current NAW talent since all that. You know, it's an incredible get. It would not have happened if it had been anybody else. Yeah. It happened because it's TunnelTalk and they are so good at what they do. So, you know, fair play to them. We loved it. We had a great problem with it. Yeah, we were lucky as some rich got the book before. And we were just, it was harder than not to pay anything. Yeah, they smashed it. And it's a proof that you can do things differently and get great results. Yeah. It doesn't need to be the same fucking five white guys in a room talking about how great Will Asprey is. Like, do something different. Like, try something new, so. Yeah. Oh, and they got this shirt, and they got this shirt. So, they got the shirts off. They got the shirts off. Shirts off for TunnelTalk. Nips out for TunnelTalk. Thank you, slick Nick. Thank you. I'm not, I'm not. Yeah, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my. Honestly. I was like, I was like, I need to text Leah, so. Tremendous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that was tremendous work. And I think we need to recognize that. Because I don't think they've actually had enough recognition. And once I thank you, it was a while to Garrett Gonzalez for giving the shout out on war after we kind of caused him hell. But they're not being recognized and observed. Because it's important, you know, you do this work. You put that work in. You should be. And the fact that it's new voices doing it is even more important. You know, we have to, we have to change certain things in our culture. All right. That's enough. Pontificating. Thought about the things. Fluffing our girls, but we can't help it. They did such an awesome day. It was so funny. I was listening to it again in the airport the other day. And it was just some speeches, especially Nick just decided, fuck it. I'll say what I want. But it's just like, oh my gosh, but yeah, no fantastic job. I know it's not something they wanted to feature. But I'm like, hey, you get the opportunity. Kill it. Because it's so refreshing to see something different. And I hit the same fucking fire lines. Yeah. So that has been it. This has been a very new Japan-orientated petition. So wrestling podcast. We are produced by the wonderful Leah of the aforementioned tunnel talk. Who does a smashing job of making it sound half reasonable, even at 6 a.m. On a deafening morning. So bad. You can find Tamil talk in all our great podcasts over at the social supplier network. The network that just likes to cause a little bit of trouble here. And there, but really has kind of progressed in the last year. The virus over at www.socialsuperics.com. You can also find our discord there, which you can join and interact with all the hosts of all these podcasts. You can also find us ourselves on Twitter and Blue Sky. We're @tensionsera on Twitter. But Trisha Sarah put on Blue Sky. I think it's the Blue Sky yet. Yes, well, I haven't fixed it, but I know how to fix it. So I have to fix it. Okay, cool. But you can even fix it by tomorrow. So I will tweet the podcast announcement tomorrow on Blue Sky. Or tweet whatever the fuck we're doing over there. But yes, I'm on it, Trisha. Well, even saying anything to you about like fixes technical thing, when it took me 10 minutes to get my headphones to work before we started. Oh my God. Yeah, you can also support the network and ourselves by going to www.chocht.com. Oh, Josh. Oh, Josh. Josh, Josh, please. Josh, please. I don't know. Maybe often Josh could make us a team. He's very cool on that stuff. Josh, Josh, we're going to bug you for stuff. Yeah, www.chocht.com/tensionsera and all the rest of our great podcasts. If you change that to Dash social2plex. You can also contact us by email, Trisha Sarah product email, or contact us at @chocht.com. I have so few questions we do keep them. We will get back to them. We just have so much to discuss. Everything just blew up in 24 hours in chip pan. So they will apologize for that. Back in a couple of weeks, hopefully things are a little calm and we can get in stuff. We'll have the raw Netflix to get through and how that's shaping up. And plenty of other stuff as well and anything else that will come up with while I'm here for a bit longer. So yeah, thank you very much for listening. You mean that with us? Hope you enjoyed the Christmas episode. Hope you never think of Blackpool the same way again. And until next time, I've been Trisha. I've been Sarah. And this has been the Trisha Sarah wrestling podcast. Thank you for listening. (upbeat music)
