The Outspoken Bible. Conversations about the word. A podcast from Scottish Bible Society. Hello and welcome to season 7 episode 12 of The Outspoken Bible. The sharp-eared listeners amongst you might think, wait a minute have we not already had episode 12? I want to start the New Year with an apology. Last time I said it was episode 12, it was actually 11. This is the real deal, this is episode 12 of The Outspoken Bible. I am as ever a fuel astute and I am as ever joined by Jen Robertson and Neil Glover. Happy New Year to you both. Five years into the podcast, we started this in 2020, it's now 2025. Been doing this for five years, amazing. This is episode number 148, and that's if I'm counting properly, which I think we've proved, I can't do very well. We have had 46,200 downloads from when we started in 2020. We have covered Bible 2020, we've had conversations with individuals, we've studied Psalms, Acts, Ruth, John's Gospel, Ezra Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, we've done Joseph in the Triumph of Grace, and I think we've done a little bit on Mark's Gospel as well. That's covered a lot, it's amazing. I think we should process all that somewhere, that's fantastic pieces of information. Well, anyhow, we are still in season 7. Oh yeah, so I suppose I should ask you what your highlights are, really. Any particular highlight off the top of your head, of the last five years, of the whole podcast? Yeah, highlights. I mean, if you like, I can come back to the end of episode. It's been one of the most significant periods of my life, and all sorts of things have happened. Obviously, we went through COVID together, I was a little start of it, and well, I'd let Jane let you speak for yourself. It's okay, you can see. I do want to own that experience on your behalf. Yeah, and I think my faith has profoundly changed, and you two have been a brilliant company in all of that. Yeah. Yeah, I've just had my annual review at work, it's a standard thing to do in the workplace, that you get your review of the year, and you think about the good things and the challenges, and the looking ahead into the new year. And I wrote that the podcast was the thing that most helped me deeply engage with the Bible, and to encounter Jesus in a more meaningful way. So it's not just something, I think for me, and I think it's a new thing as well, there's lots, there's some things in ministry that you do because that's what you do. And I love it, but there's something about the podcast that is more than just something I do, it actually really throws me into the Bible, and that grappling with it, and asking the difficult questions, and talking about it is just so significant for me in my world with Jesus, even though I'm on it, like presenting it. Fantastic. I mean, I was not expecting that level of debt, to be honest. I thought you might have said, you know, I like having a cup of tea with you every fortnight, but no, this is a different level. I really value both of you. I mean, I've probably said that before, but it bears repeating, I really value both of your friendship, but also just this way of, like you say, Jen, engaging with scripture in and around all the business of life, and you know, as you've said, you know, we've probably all of us been through significant things in the last five years, and this has been a constant and a steady. Any highlights for you? Well, yeah, I mean, I think seeing it grow has been good. I think, I love it. I mean, we're going to come to correspondence in a minute, and I do love it when people either get in touch, or they speak to me and say, oh, I was listening, and here's what I think, and I wanted to join in. That feels like the reason, well, it's not the reason we're doing, yeah, it feels like we're building a community, and I really value that. I really value the opportunity to do that for Scottish Bible Society. So yeah, it's been good. And also, it does make me read my Bible in a deeper way than to be totally honest, probably do. You've cut down sermon prep on quite a few occasions for me. And it's brought me to my happy place of writing jingles, so it's just been excellent. Oh, the moment I've had on your ridiculously shortened jingle. Well, let's not get into that because we don't have all that much time to record this ridiculously long episode. So there we go. We'll leave that for next time. Now, we're back today into the Book of Romans, thinking about Romans, chapter seven. But before that, we have actually had a fair amount of correspondence over the festive period. I think people have had time to catch up and do a bit of writing. So I've just selected some of that to talk about, first is from Rachel McNeil. Happy New Year to Rachel. She's a good friend to the podcast. Yeah. She hopes we've all had a lovely Christmas. Thanks for another fantastic fab year, she says, of outspoken Bible, particularly enjoying the in-depth look at Christmas story characters. She says, I think I'll be late for the record, but sorry, I think I'll be late for all kinds of says. I think I'll be too late for the record that will be the last one of the year. Oh, yes. But do any of you have any good recommendations for daily Bible devotionals? I'm just about to finish the Bible in one year, which is the Nicki Gumbel app. So I'm looking for something new in the new year, maybe helpful for others too, as it's often when people start new habits or make resolutions. Much love Rachel. Any thoughts on that? Well, I think I replied to Rachel about this, because I saw the email, and it's actually my reply to her, but it's exactly what I've just said about the podcast, that I'm really bad at doing daily Bible reading notes. I've tried for 40 years, really, and not succeeded. But the podcast has made me regularly read the Bible. And maybe God, I often feel that God put me in the job that he has, because he knows that I would struggle to connect with them if I wasn't made to do it. That sounds terrible, but I mean it in a very positive way. So I struggled to recommend anything for Rachel, apart from the things that we already talk about in the podcast, which I tend to be seasonal, seasonal devotions that I use for Blint and Advent. But you had a nice one for you, huh? I did. Well, I use Light to 365, which is the 24/7 prayer app. And they've, well, they do a morning and evening. I'll be totally honest, I often felt full of sleep during the evening one. But they've just introduced a lunchtime segment as well, so a midday prayer slot as well. I've been using that for a while, but I decided my friend Ruth Walker introduced me to Daily Lectio Divina, which is, you find that on a podcast format, so I use it on Apple podcast. You can find it obviously on your videos platforms. And that is Sharon Garlo-Brown, who is a spiritual director. She's based in Scotland, but she's American. And she takes you through audibly, takes you through, I think it's five times reading the passage for the day, and there are little prompts as you go along. But I've been really enjoying that. That's abiding way ministries. It's her ministry and Daily Lectio Divina. You find it on your podcast platform. It's just been a really useful thing I found in the last few months. I've used that wee bit, and you can take out the prompts as well. You can just listen to it, just 30 things and silence. I also used to do Common Prayer, which for a while during the pandemic and then beyond that, I used to do the Common Prayer weekly board book, which was good. It was good. It challenged me a little bit because some of it is, yeah, it's written from an American standpoint. Some of it politically. It opens up a different way of thinking about some things. Yeah, I really like that. I haven't used notes. I haven't used it for a long time, but I'm often asked by people what they recommend. And I really like to know some good recommendations. It's every day with Jesus. Is that still produced? I think so. Certainly you still get Daily Bread. He was a genius. These sort of issue ones as well. Yeah, I just had this ability, didn't he, to see things in that format, which, yeah, spoke to generations. Well, Rachel, whatever you choose to do, and other people listening, whatever you choose to do, I trust that you will keep doing it right through till December. And if you don't switch it up and do something else, I think that's always helpful, Jen, what you said about doing things seasonally is also really useful. Good. Okay, so that was Rachel's email. I had an email from John Hodge. Now, this is this is specific, very specific. So he is writing to Fiona, Jen, Neil and Amy. Well done. We always like emails that name the quartet. Yes, he wants to follow that precedent. John writes, "I was intrigued by the way that Neil dealt with the instant preach on Proverbs 29-18. I will now admit to submitting it. I would like to share the background to that verse, meaning a lot to me." I was a student in Edinburgh in 1970, and I had just been given some responsibility by the University Christian Union. The next Sunday, the minister, James Phillip, at the church I attended preached on this verse, and he took three different translations of it, including the authorised version where there is no vision, and showed how they all brought different layers of understanding to the verse. Several years later, I was chairing a session at which Mr Phillip was speaking and reminded him of the sermon. He was able to tell me the exact Sunday that he had preached it. It's a verse that has stayed with me, and it's been one of the inspiration verses in my life, and I feel that in all its ramifications, it is a message that we, in the mainstream churches, in particular, church of Scotland, need to recover and find. And he also makes a comment that he's glad that Lynn and Colin, who wrote to us about travelling through Australia and listening, glad that Lynn and Colin got into the outspoken Bible in Australia, it was also in Brisbane, but not on the road that Christine and I really got into listening to the podcast, and it was Colin who introduced us to it. Thanks again for the insight she gave us. The Advent Studies have mirrored to an extent our church Bible studies, and given new insights which have been most helpful. Thank you, John. So if you're listening to this on some form of continental road trip, hope you're enjoying it. So thank you, John, for getting in touch. Good to hear from you as ever, and then the next piece of correspondences from Jen's cousin, Beth. We've mentioned it before. Beth writes, "Good morning from Florida. I've been listening to you and enjoying the outspoken Bible podcast for some time now. In a bit of honesty, I started listening so that I could enjoy hearing my cousin, my cousin Jen's lovely voice and accent, although you are lovely as well, John. And I've quickly become a loyal and consistent listener because I enjoy the way you discuss the verses and apply them to daily living. I really particularly enjoyed the episodes during Advent." So that's three people now saying that. "These conversations opened my eyes and my heart. I feel I now have a new understanding of familiar passages. You've made them new again." Episode 12, sorry, Beth. I think that's actually the one that I misnumbered. It's actually episode 11. "Simeon and Anna had excellent takeaways and gave me the opportunity to consider so many sides of the nativity story that I had not contemplated before. And as I sign off, I also have a reflection on instant preach. First, it is great. I'm at years always prick up when you get to that segment, but I also start to get anxious and nervous. Each time I wonder how I would handle the passage and I'm always impressed without it's done. Excellent segment. Keep up the awesome work. No comment there on the jingle there, Beth, but lovely to hear from you. That is Beth Wellmaker, who's Jen's cousin in the state. On the topic of Anna and Simeon, final piece of correspondences from Julie Moody. Hello, Judy. I've done that before with Julie. It's the Moody, the D and the Moody, Julie. Hello. She says to your Jen, Neil and Fiona, happy year. I've only just listened to your Simeon and Anna podcast today, which is Christmas Day in the Eastern Orthodox Church, 7th of January, and it's still in the season of Christmas. Will I keep my Christmas tree up until Candomus on 2nd February? Probably not. But for now, our house is the cheeriest of the street as we still have the lights on. She goes on, I listened intently to your reflections on Simeon and felt I had to ask, why do we assume Simeon was old? It doesn't say anything about his age in the way that it does for Anna or Zechariah and Elizabeth. Do we assume he is old? Because he says he can now depart in peace, in peace. He can only say these words because he has seen salvation. Surely a 20-year-old and 8-year-old could say exactly the same thing if they too know Jesus as their Savior. When I was going through my cancer treatments right, Julie, I longed for the peace that Simeon had to be able to say aged 40, Jesus is my Savior, I do not fear death. The reality was I did not fear death itself, but I greatly feared what death would do to those I left behind if the treatment didn't work, if healing didn't come. Perhaps there is a challenge to all of us in Simeon's words. A 20-25 bring a growing confidence in the salvation we receive from Jesus so that we can leave each and every situation with him, depart from them in peace. In his arms, it is the safest place to be. Thanks bro, you do, lean hard, love, Julie. Well, beautiful. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing. That was really interesting wasn't it? Really interesting. I did wonder about it because Julie is absolutely right. It does not say he was old, but does it? Yes, so there's a couple of things. The power of the story I guess is more powerful if he's been waiting 50 years than if he's been waiting 10 years and also I suppose it gives that a parallel with the Anna story where we have told that she's been waiting a long time. Then there's the other thing that says he will not taste death until he has met Jesus. Once again, that probably has more power if there's a sense that the death's about to happen now as opposed to he'll still die in another 20 years time. But what I really love, these are all speculations, it doesn't actually say it and what I really love about a Julie's reflection is that that experience of seeing salvation can have, you don't need to be at the outer edge of the story telling universe and having waited 60 years, it can happen after 10 years, it can happen after three years that the waiting can happen and it can still be unbelievably powerful. It's also reminded, and we've encountered this as we've gone along through Romans actually, it's a reminder to me not to make assumptions about Scripture, another reminder to take off the lenses that I bring to it. We've had that conversation way about Romans 1 and 2 and what we assumed it meant. We might come to some of that today when we come to Romans 7, but just that helpful reminder to really read it afresh. That's why listening I think is really helpful for me. Listening to Scripture read out loud is good. I was disappointed that we hadn't thought about that. Thank you, Julie. Yeah, I know, I know. She's like, she could be like, you're kind of on the subs bench, Julie, you know. You might get your call up one day. So that is correspondence. If you have anything that you'd like to say, if you'd like to weigh in on the conversation, then you can contact us outspoken@scottishbiblecite.org. We would love to hear from you. As I say, that's one of my highlights is hearing from people responding to what we're talking about. It is time for that segment that we all know and love with it. It's super short intro, instant preach. And this week I've got the verse. Who am I giving it to? Me, Jennifer. Jennifer, so please don't call me that. So, Jen, it's a two-verser. And it is Philippians chapter four versus six to seven. So here it is in the time on earth twice. Do not worry about anything but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Do you not worry about anything but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Okay, Jen, are you ready? Your minute starts now. I laughed when I heard that verse because my life has been spent worrying about everything. And that came to ahead two years ago when my whole world fell apart because I was so anxious and interested in being talking to correspondents about the fear of death. And that was my big problem, fear of dying. And this is the kind of verse I would read in that situation. Don't worry about anything. The verse now I'm reading no matter what hands tell God about everything. I've just thought that's impossible. I just can't stop worrying. And I've discovered that Jesus isn't shouting from a great distance to me to stop worrying. He's actually standing right beside me. And he puts his arm around me and he says, don't worry because I'm here and I'm going to help you change your perspective of how you see the world, which is a great therapeutic technique as well as well as being in the Bible. I love when those two things come together. The other therapy and the Bible, Jesus is beside us telling us not to worry. That was great, Jen. So my intro was a bit long, but there we go. Neil's turkey is ready. I've got a new timer, which I'm showing off, which is helping me focus. I could only look at one timer. That would have been too much. That was good, though. That was good. And thank you for so much in those verses. I'm so honest in that, you know, and so well in that. But there's so much in those verses that I didn't touch on. Because it is an instant thing. And if we're actually preaching, there's so much more that could be said. Yes, which goes back to Julie Moody's previous correspondence, actually, but the fact that it's not really an instant preaches. It's an instant response to a verse, really. Good. Now, we left the Book of Romans in episode eight. That was correctly numbered. In episode eight, at the end of chapter six. And when we last spoke, we spent quite a lot of time actually talking about what it means to come from the kingdom of the realm of sin into the realm of the kingdom of grace. And particularly, we marveled at what it meant to be united with Christ in his death and resurrection. So Neil, you talked about, you know, the kind of compression of time and space, bringing us that place that we were all, we were all present spiritually in that moment. Well, today we pick up the account at chapter seven with an illustration that helps us understand our relationship with sin and with the law. And we begin, I guess, with verses one to six. There's an illustration there of marriage that helps us understand the seriousness of all of this. I wondered, would anybody like to unpack the metaphor a little bit that we find in verses one to six? Just before we do that, can I just pick up something from the end of chapter six, because this is what sets us up. So it's that famous verse. Now, you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God. The advantage you get is being made holy and the end is eternal life. And then Paul says, for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. So he's talking about this phenomenal gift of Christ. And in a sense, this is an entirely new way of thinking, seeing, being, feeling, holding your body. Body's going to be really important when we come to chapter seven. A famous commentator on this boatman said, you do not have a body, you are a body and or a soma as it is in Greek. And a that whole transformation in Christ is is there and Paul's going to set this up. But he knows that there is there's probably two questions hanging around. One is, well, if Christ is so important, what was the point of the law? Now he's already dealt with that. But he's going to come back to that because he knows people are still asking questions that learn the law their whole lives. And the second one is, what happens when I don't really feel this now that we're going to come to that later on? So yeah, you're telling us I've gone through this brilliant transformational change. But a lot of the time doesn't really feel that way to me. So what am I going to do about it? So those two questions have been set up in a sense by the high expectations he set for the gospel and in chapter seven. And consistently, we've seen him do this, haven't we, sort of setting up the question and so that he can come in and answer it. There's a kind of dialogue going on within the letter, isn't there? Yeah, yeah. It's very much that internal dialogue going on there, isn't it, with these critics? And then you asked about the metaphor. Yeah, that's what the metaphor. I mean, we've all been to a lot of weddings. Well, you two are both in the institution, right? I'm not. But I have a high respect for it. Why significantly has he chosen this example, Jen? Well, I mean, I'd hate to say it's because it's quite simple because nothing really about Paul writes would often make me say that. But it's quite simple. But while you're married, there's certain laws that control you. But then once you're no longer married and that you talked about the husband dying, then you're no longer under the control of those things. Once that death has happened, once that relationship has gone, it's been broken, then you don't need, if you then go off with another person, you're not committing adultery, you're not breaking that law. But then I suppose that's when it becomes a bit complicated, complicated, because what is he saying has died in the law, our relationship with the law. Once we're in Christ, we're just in that new relationship, then the law no longer has that power over us. But that doesn't mean you can just go and do whatever you want. But because you're in that new place, which I think we've talked about quite a lot, if we've moved just like a person who's married, once they're no longer married, they're not in that situation anymore. They're not in that place of the laws that control their lives as a married person. That's all changed. It's all different. Yeah. And what famously happens, so basically, as you've said, Jen, he's using this analogy of the wife is married to the husband, and the husband has died. So I'm no longer married to that anymore. And as you've said, the wife has moved from being married to the law, to being married to Christ. And also, it's Christ, in a sense, who has killed the law, or the effect. Is it that she's married to the law, or is it that the law is the marriage? Is the contract that bind to her? No, I think it's that she's married to the law. It's the first of those. But famously... Because that's quite interesting to me to think about. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like there's a new contract, and you've got... Because if you did that, then you would just... Yeah, you're married to law itself. But the analogy breaks, because in the universe four, suddenly, Paul switches, and he starts talking as if you're the husband. So you have died. So some people have criticized Paul for this. I don't care. I think Paul do be like, "Fine." But one of the commentators says, "Just goes to show that Paul's not as good at analogy as Jesus was." That's what somebody said. Yeah. But I think it has to be the thing about the law, because that's the thing that's broken, isn't it? The change... Maybe I'm broken to the right word. When we get into this new relationship with Jesus, we're detached from the power that the law had over us. But are we detached from our relationship with sin and death? Yes, we are. And married afresh, if you like, to Christ and to life. Yeah. So that's captured in verse six. "Now we are discharged from the laws," so that was our former spouse, "dead to that which held us captive so that we are slaves." And he's now switched, he's moved from a marriage analogy to a slave analogy, and you like to do that, Paul, let's find fling the metaphors. So we are slaves. I don't know. I find myself getting really defensive for Paul. I just like, "Live a lot, he's brilliant." So that we are slaves not under the old written code, but in the new life of the spirit. So that's this transfer from written code to spirit that's happened as a whole new way of being that's been brought about. And that sets up a a question that they're kind of three extreme or three points. Question number one is, Christians are or position number one is, Christians are still under the law, legalism, but now they're also forgiven through Christ, but they still keep to all the laws. That's legalism. And John Stock makes the point that the legalist is kind of still quite scared of the law. Then the second position is the technical term is anti-nomian, anti-nomian. So nomos is a great word for law. So an anti-nomian is someone who's against the law. And that's a way of being in which the law no longer matters at all. We get rid of all rule-based ethics, and that's sometimes called a love-based ethic, or a situational ethic, or a contextual ethic. Those three are slightly different from each other, but famously Joseph Fletcher wrote about this, said there's only one law now, which is love. And he wrote his book, "Sitchation Ethics," to found examples where it was valid. I mean, I don't really want to go into this too much, but he found examples where, for example, it love demanded that you commit adultery because he found a woman in a prison camp in Russia after the Second World War. And if she was pregnant, she would be sent home to her family. And so she became pregnant by one of the Russian guards and came back to her family. And his closing comment was, "Little detail was the most loved child of all." But he'd find an example where the law breaks down. That's anti-nomianism. Paul... And that's sort of the extreme end of situational ethics, isn't it? Because quite often we would apply situational ethics to help us interpret and make sense of a difficult dilemma. So that's... That feels like the extreme end of it. So situational... So what you're describing technically, I think, is contextual ethics. But "Sitchation Ethics" was a specific book that was written by Joseph Fletcher to paint that extreme. And what do you do in between? Now, John Stott argues for, what is it, if freedom to obey, I think, or he argues that you don't have to obey the law, but you still choose to do it to be the moral law. If I'm being honest, I think that Paul moves slightly closer to the anti-nomian end, but he doesn't ditch morality. I think it comes down to his view in Corinthians that everything is permissible, but not everything is advisable. And I still think that the law is a really good guide to life. But remember here, Paul's removing the circumcision laws, the foot laws. Now, sometimes people say there's a moral law that he's holding on to, and there's a little bit of evidence for that in first Timothy. But I think he nudges closer to the anti-nomian end. Martin Lloyd Jones... But we surely have to set that against Jesus' teaching, which is that he hasn't come to destroy a jot or a tittle. So that's the famous quote from Matthew chapter 5, the seven amount, where he then goes on... He makes it more. Well, he does make it... He gets to the intention underneath the law, but also remember as well that he did different things with the Sabbath laws and with the foot laws again. I think Jesus' frame was mercy not sacrifice, but you're right. We're in a similar realm. Well, you got to interpret Paul in the life of Jesus, is what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Sorry, you were talking about Martin Lloyd? Oh, yeah. He always said that the gospel, if properly preached, would always be accused of being anti-nomian. Which is definitely saying it was anti-nomian. Yes, that's quite helpful, isn't it? Can you give us a simpler definition of anti-nomianism, because I'm quite... No laws, no rules. In every situation, you do what love demands. Love rules. And that's quite a pervasive philosophy, I think, both in our society, but I think also sometimes within our Christian structures. Yeah, but I think what's important, what you just said, Fiona, is surely for us, it's not about doing what love... what love shows us is the right thing to do. But to be releasing the law as a follower of Jesus is to be doing what Jesus wants us to do. And I don't mean that in what would Jesus do, bracelet kind of way. We're just going to work out all the time, because we have the Holy Spirit living in it. So there's something much, much deeper in this, that it's not just love will make me do this. And I'm working out with that means in each situation. But actually, I've been sent free from the law, that marriage, if you like, that metaphor's gone. And I'm now in this new relationship with the Holy Spirit fills me, and I'm a changed person, and it's Jesus in me by the Spirit that shows me and enables me what to do in each situation. Now, we've also got the Bible, so that helps, and we've got each other. But that is different from just thinking, what does love do in this situation? Yes, because it's giving it, I think it's that phrase you use, the John Stock phrase about freedom to obey, isn't it? So it's not that the law itself is wrong. But also I think what you're saying. There's some heart motivation, but there's also an empowerment that comes. And the law is not evil, as you've said. It's known immoral. It's like an MRI scan or something. You go into an MRI scan and it shows you with the diseases. Is that not the function of the law? The law shows up how we're broken, diseased, unable to be the people we're meant to be. But only through that relationship with Jesus to be then become the people we're meant to be. The job of the law is to show us. And so if we're just stuck, and this is what I think the thing for me for Romans 7 showed me was that in a totally new way, when I was reading it this time, that without Jesus, you're just stuck in this kind of, "Oh, I need to do this and I need to do that and I need to do new year resolutions and I need to get better." And it's awful, it's dark, it's relentless, it's hopeless. And that's why Paul says, "Who's going to save me?" Or, "Is it going to rescue me?" Who can save me? Or only Jesus, I'm telling you something very even jealical here, but that's great, I am. And I think in this passage which can seem, I think all my life as a Christian, I've read this passage and you get to that bit about what I do and what I do and what I do, I do, I do. And it just feels a bit heavy. But actually, if you see chapter 7, it's just going to launch pad into chapter 8. I just really want to get to chapter 8. It's putting things in perspective. It's saying that debunking things, this is really what the law is. The law is just showing us what we're like. And this is just for that struggle we go through the struggle of sin. It's not about doing this wrong or doing that wrong on these different behaviors. Is this inside, is this broken relationship that needs to be sorted? And Jane, what I love about what you pick up on is that even if you reduce all the law down to one law, which is love, it's still a law. Whereas if I hear you right, you're arguing it's capturing that verse. We are slaves not under the old written code, but the new life of the spirit and the spirit is personal and powerful. And what the law does using that image you've said of the MRI scan is it shows us in pause phrase that sin might be even utterly sinful in every way. It shows everything up for what it is. I think as well, my problem with the law of love is that often the way that works out in practice is it's the law of what I love. And then what the law of what you love might be different. But actually what we're talking about here is the law of love of the capital L, aren't we? We're talking about the law of how God loves us, his standard of how we love. And the law doesn't, what the law illustrates about what is important to God, doesn't change. So it is the law of love, isn't it? But it's the law of greater love, if you like, than what might make me feel good or be my kind of in the moment situational response to something. My personal response, because if I respond in love, it may be very good for me, it may be absolutely awful for some day else. But God is love, so he sees a bigger picture. I know what someone would say about that form of that thing that's great for me, but isn't good for someone else, isn't actually good for you, because it violates relationships and creates further injustice. Yes, and you begin to get into a utilitarian argument about where we find the common basis. So then you impose a new law. Yeah, so I would argue, so what Paul's really arguing against here, I think is a certain form of a morality that just has its rules. And it shows up, for example, in contemporary culture, where there are certain rules about how you talk about inclusion, how you talk about categories of person who are not you, that if you breach them, then the ferocity of the internet can come piling down upon you. And so laws can exist both in left wing and right wing kind of circles. And it's the whole concept of a grid of rules that Paul actually isn't saying Torah, Torah is wrong, you know, it's not wrong. It shows you where injustice is. It shows you where people are behaving badly, but it is powerless to change you. I think that's what I was trying to get at with. No, no, no, no, no. I'm just trying to work out my own response to the passage. This actually is not, I'm not heading back at you. But that kind of idea that it's not that we were wedded to the law, it's that the law was the thing that held us wedded in a situation of not being able to achieve what we needed to achieve. And worse than that, made it worse. And made it worse. And it's always been set free from that. So it's the kind of being set free from the institution of it. But I need to go back and revisit the verses again. But I think it's where it's metafruit doesn't, doesn't always hold together. It's not, it's not a fluid picture. It has a power. We know what he means. Yeah. What about that thing? And I think to Jen's point that it's an easy metaphor. I think it's also, it's a universal metaphor. It's one that, you know, your MRI example is a great example, but that would have meant nothing to somebody 200 years ago. Whereas the metaphor of marriage, I think it's a really helpful universal metaphor, isn't it? Sorry. Sorry. I was just going on to the thing to do with love. What do you think of our city? But sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, producing me all kinds of covetousness that law itself almost causes more sin. Yeah, it gives you a name for what you legitimize, or it gives you a, it gives you a name for something you do not think he's going further than that. He's not and say it means more. It's actually, because the thing's banned, I know what to do even more. Yeah. And there's that is, does he, does he reference Eve here, or did I just think about Eve? There is. There's an argument that there's lots of Adam and Eve references going on here. Yeah, because I think, for me, I think I read in one commentary that a good example of what Paul's saying here, you know, it's the sin, the law, and when the law appears, it made me want all kinds of things. And if you think of Eve and Adam in the garden, did the knowledge, did when the snake say, when it's snake said, do we eat the apple? Did that actually trigger for her? And then treat, oh, well, that, oh, well, I've not to do that. And I really want to do that now. I don't want to end else, but I sometimes think it's just my personality. But I'm often in situations when someone says, you know, you're not really meant to be doing that. Yeah. I just, I was like, well, that's really what I want to do. Because I really, and it's not because I want to break the rules. I don't think I'm really low. I think that's not, that's not, it's actually, but this is what I want to do. Yes. And it's, and it's, and it's not that, the importance of, of sin, not thinking of sin being this list of things. And I did this, and that was a sin, but this internal sin is about us wanting to be God, us wanting to be in charge, us wanting to go this way in it. And it's that propulsion to see here that the presence of the laws triggers that internal problem that we've all got. Yeah. My way, I want to do this, the way I want to do it. It's all about hands with Eve, it's all about hands, so others, it's all about propulsion to see here. So, so there is a malevolent purpose or a malevolent direction of law? I think law awakens, it, I think Paul's actually quite keen not to blame the law here. It's, it's more that the law further awakens some malevolence that is already there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm reading the new international version and the version I did says, a new international reader's version, sorry. Before I knew about the law, I was alive, but then the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died. This, this relationship with the print, you know, way out of, this is the standard that actually the makes you more. With your brokenness. Yeah, pushes you to rebellion. Yeah. That's also a provocative verse, because when was he prior to law? And so he seems to be talking at that point as a universal human, and potentially also as Israel. Yeah. It's all sorts of fluid things going on here. Paul, at one point to an army's personal experience, the next moment the eye is the universal humanity and he's expecting his reader to keep up with this. Yes. Yes. He kind of slips in and out of 10 seasons. Yeah. Yeah. And also he talks about the law as holy. So in 2012, so then the law is holy and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. I can feel he's kind of, he's, he's holding a position that, that is super complex and is under attack from all sides. Can you imagine a Orthodox Jewish Christian hearing that and love the law all their days. Say, Sam, 119, your lamp is like, your law is a lamp unto my feet, a guide unto my path. How wonderful is the law? I'm pulsing. Yeah. The law is really good because it makes sin even more sinful. Yeah. Whoa. That's a destruction going on. He says, it's still holy. So it's not like it's pointing you to wrong stuff. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really radical moves here from Paul. Yeah. Yeah. There's two things I'm thinking about. So it's that we are really messed up, aren't we as people? Like what, what happened in the Garden of Eden? And that broken relationship with God and with each other. This is a really partly what Paul's describing here that we are broken where we can't be, what we're meant to be. But the other thing, I was thinking of as well that there's such a fine balance in the Christian life of not being the legalist. And being that person who walks in freedom, it's so easy to just like, we see it in our churches all the time. And I see myself, you know, like, I just, if I just, I should be doing this or I should be doing that, or you should be doing, oh, maybe work, you should be doing this. This is the way you should be doing. This is the way you should be falling Jesus. And it's that concept coming back to this new living relationship. So the law, it's not that we have a Bible study, which I often talk about, of young adults in my church family. And it's quite a competition to often have is people will say, should I do this, or should I do that? And we often talk about being a Christian is not working out the rules of the day, but having knowing Jesus and be filled with the Spirit so we can say to him, oh, I'm in this situation, what is the right thing to do? Now, that doesn't mean you don't read the Bible and you try and work it as well. It's why we have the podcast. That's why you have these conversations. That's why you have Bible services, why we have church, because we need each other to talk about what it means to follow Jesus. But it's got to be the relationship, but it's just, it's a mess. Yeah. If it's just the law, it's just so dark and lifeless. Yeah. Yeah. There's sometimes a conception of Christianity that what Jesus did was he took the existing set of goalposts, which were the 365 laws of Judaism, and he just moved them to somewhere else. He didn't actually move them to a completely different place. He moved them like five food to the right. So he got rid of the food stuff and the circumcision stuff. He kept the morality stuff, basically the same commandments. And he said, now, these are the set of goals you go through now, but it's still a set of goalposts that you have to get through. And instead, what you're emphasizing, Jan, is that it's a relationship that you walk with him. Now, you may well still find yourself of being a lot of the same laws. You're still not going to steal. You're still not going to to murder. You're still not going to covet. You're still going to love your neighbor as yourself. But you're going to have a power within you. This profoundly shaping gift is going to shape you so that you do this joyfully, rather than every single moment going, have I done that right? Have I done that right? Yeah. And it's that cycle of knowing our identity, isn't it? So that thing of, you know, if Jesus is king, if the Lord is king and we're part of his kingdom, our identity flows, our identity sons and daughters flows from that. And therefore, we're given the ability to act in obedience. So it's the kingship flows to the identity, flows to the obedience. But so often we live at the opposite way round, don't we? So we think that by an act of obedience, my identity as a son or daughter will be proved and I'll be acceptable to the king. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that in and of itself is part of the human condition to default back to not knowing our fullness of identity. Because surely that was out of an easy issue. Yeah. And this is going to be the thing that that gets us out of Romans chapter seven in the end. And you were talking about obedience. When you think about true love, you think about Jesus' example and something you said earlier, it is way, it is hugely demanding. It is a loss of self, it is a, it is a death. It's really hard. But it's also beautiful at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is, it's really important in our current moment to be, to be talking about this, I think I was speaking to somebody earlier today, um, on premier, I was doing my premier show this morning and I was being somebody about the occult and the growth of interest in witchcraft and things like crystals and, you know, these kind of talismans and things. And she, one of the things she was, she was saying very helpful was the question to be asking somebody who's dabbling with some of that stuff is, well, does it actually bring you freedom to have this crystal? You know, you're, you're instilling something in that. But what happens when you leave that thing behind? How do you feel? Does it make you feel, are you still free? You know, I think, I think we're living in, in, in times where people are spiritually seeking and they're spiritually seeking after freedom and, um, independent freedom. But actually often it's leading people to places that there are places of, of once again being bound. And that's not Jewish law. That's other laws that we get from other places because there's something very attractive in having a law. Yes. Yes. Because we are drawn towards, yeah, that's right. That's right. So can we, are we happy with where we're at? Sort of end of verse 19, 20 and come, or actually, well, into the first sort of 18, 19, 20, not onwards. Can we get into this thing of what I do, I don't do and what I want to do? Yeah. I find myself not doing it. What's going on there? Is he talking about himself now? Because I think that's how I've read this before. Well, this is an identify with some of that inner struggle, actually. Or is he talking about his unredeemed self? Sorry, Jen. Yeah. No, no, I, I started preparing, um, for this podcast on epiphany, the 6th of January. And, um, I think epiphany means, you know, discovering something, you being awoken to something like, wow, that I didn't know that before. And when I was preparing it and I was reading around it, I was absolutely delighted. And it was an epiphany moment for me to discover that people have debated for years about the state of the person that is being talked about in these verses. We know not the law, uh, what I've been doing. I don't do what I don't understand why I do. I don't do what I want to do instead of do what I hate. And the big argument, not an argument, but is this someone who is unsaved, they don't know Jesus, or is this about someone who is saved and is walking with Jesus? And as I read the different, um, sort of points of view of that, I was, I was really, I was so glad, because I thought, oh, if they are talking about someone who's not a Christian, then I felt kind of released from it. Cause I've read this. I felt, oh, it's, it's not our Christian life. We just like, you're always like, I'm trying to be this and I'm trying to be that because really what I just said earlier was we're freed from that. We're freed from that kind of, I'm trying really hard to do the right thing. I've always struggled with these verses. As I read it, and I thought of Christians down the years of thought, you know, this is about people who aren't saved. I was, I just felt kind of lightened by that, you know, that apparently the Greek fathers and the early church, so they were, that's what I read. Um, they saw it this way. It wasn't about a Christian. It was what you were before you were saved. Yes. And it was that struggle when all you've known is the law. Yes. And it was that particularly, as Paul's writing to, to Jewish people here that the law is their life. That, that's why, I mean, when he's, you know, he says the first verses of chapter seven, I'm speaking to you know the law. This is their life. This is their worldview. This is how they see it. So that to me made so much more sense that this, this struggle is battle to try and match up to the law is a, before you're saved, before you know Jesus. So, Jen, I'm with you in the Greeks, uh, on this, and the, the reason is, I'm with you in the Greeks. Yeah. Jen's hanging on me, Neil, and the Greek fathers. Yeah. Yeah. Against the Gustin. I'm really against the Gustin. A big fan of a Gustin. So Gustin's the father of the Western fathers. They're reformers. Yeah. Yeah. So Augustine leads you in a line through to Calvin and Luther and Aquinas as well. Um, so, so the key best for me unlocking this is so, best five, while we were living in the flesh. So this is before Paul became a Christian, our sinful passions aroused by the law where it worked and our members to bear fruit for death. So in our bodies and the, that's before we became Christians, and therefore this struggle of a, I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. That is a description of what Paul has described in verse five, and is not a description of the renewed life where the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. So that, that would be it. Now there's a problem though, and John Stott highlights this. Okay. Say the Greek fathers. We, we saw this, but along comes the Gustin's and says, what do you do with verse 22 then? Because verse 22 describes this person delighting in the law of God and their inmost self. And Augustine and later on Calvin would say, we all know that before Christians, people become Christians, they are utterly sinful, they hate the law of God. And therefore, this must be someone who was a Christian who is, who is saying this. And John Stott thinks it might be people in the Old Testament who didn't yet have the spirit. And he also points to, he says, people who are in churches who are still law-abiding Christians who haven't felt the spirit. And I think he's onto something there. But I do want to just probe at this. I have to say, I have met lots of people who aren't Christians, but love God's laws. And the idea that the only type of non-Christian you have is some kind of inveterate psychopath who hates all laws. I just don't think it doesn't work. Yes, they are estranged from God in the sense that the Romans chapter three sounds. But I think this perfectly describes quotes the moral person. And therefore, I don't think there's so much of a contradiction. So we're back with the Greek. Yeah. And it's just what you described. It's a very modernistic church thing, isn't it? Your story, your testimony has to be a heated everything, a heated God, a heated the Bible, a heated church. Did this, I did that. And then, but that isn't the story for majority of people. The longing, the joy, I join good things. People have very strong moral codes. Yeah. And it doesn't detract from what we've already talked about in seeing that the law pushes us, or perhaps the law is better to predict that the law exposes the utter depravity, the total depravity. I'll use that and inflames it. And inflames it. So these two things can sit alongside each other, I think. Think of people who are really, really strident about something, but behind the scenes are doing it themselves, because actually what they're doing is they're projecting their own internal hatred onto somebody else. That's really common and phenomenal. Yeah, it's really common, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so that's fine. But I'm going to push back against Jen, Neil, and the Greeks. You can hang out with a ghost and it would appear John Stott. And I'm going to say that, yes, I hear what you're saying, but nonetheless, versus 14 to the end, they do describe often how I feel internally. What do we do with that? So this is where I think it's really helpful that Paul once again, he's been fluid throughout the fluism is used word nowadays, suddenly be careful. Let's redeem fluid. And he's been, he's been fluid all the way through this. And he does, of course, this really strange thing where he seems to be writing in the present tense, the good that I do, I don't do the bad that I don't want to do, about something that happened in the past. I still think Christians, you know, spirit-filled Christians have moments and we all do where that's our experience. We wrestle with compulsion. We wrestle with addiction. We wrestle with repeated patterns of sin. And I think fundamentally what's happened to that moment is we have lost and forgotten the message of the gospel that we are profoundly graced. And we have lost our faith in the spirit's power to change us. And it's almost like a temporary amnesia. And we always need to be shocked out of it again to get back into Romans, chapter 8. Yeah. And I wonder in those moments when we feel like that, partly what you've described, you know, it's not about China's sort ourselves out and behave rightly. It's coming back to Jesus. Yes. Yes. And it's that, it's that cycle again. It's that cycle of no, I know my identity is here, regardless of what's going on inside and how I feel and the mistakes I've made and the behavior. But I can turn around. Putting my hand back in your hand. Out of that darkness, out of that, like a whale, isn't it? This of, goes down and down and down and that, you know, way out. Who will save me? You come back to that. You need to say that every day. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And it's a reminder of what has already happened. Yeah. Maybe we're back to the collapsing of time that we talked about in the last time we talked about Romans. Yes. It can sit alongside that this is a description of the unredeemed self, but there's also there are elements of that. You think, yeah, I recognize that in my, in my redeemed self too. I was just looking for verse seven. So the, the, this person is more highly morally person, which we all become. And we think, right, the way I'm going to get out of this is to set myself new resolutions. I'm going to, it's try harder spirituality. And as a pastor, I've done this before, where I've nagged people or scared people into better behavior. It's a great short term solution. It's a rubbish long term solution. It comes down again to that thing that you've repeatedly said, Jane, which is do you obey a code or do you obey a person? And the, the risk of jumping ahead to verse seven, sorry chapter eight, verse seven, the reason that the mind is set on the flesh is hostile to God. And it is the degenerate state is hostile to God and does not submit to God's law. That's, that's that person, but we're now being brought up into love with God who has loved us. And the way to move beyond Romans seven, this thing where you do things that you do not do is to ask God to let you recapture the love. We're right to love. Joseph Fletcher was right on that bit, but it's, it's, yeah, but it's love with a person. Yeah, it's not love as a concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And obviously, you know, the verse, the verse seven of chapter eight that you've just mentioned that you're, we're bringing in this concept of the flesh that we've not really touched on in this episode as well. That's another kind of dimension that they're going to flesh the self and the spiritual self. I was just reflecting as you were speaking there as well about whether it is actually, there's a distortion of our concept of who God is, isn't there, when, when we fall back into the pattern of almost worshiping the law. And, and the way I used to love, there was a course called Freedom in Christ. I, I, I read the book, but what I loved about that was that still exists, I think, doesn't it? Freedom in Christ. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that it was, it said that the way to, to be changed was to recapture the sense of the gospel. Um, Stephen Chester has also written a brilliant book about that called You Can Change. Tim, you did that last time. Tim Chester. Tim Chester. I don't know, but the last episode you said, Tim Chester. And, and the Puritans were brilliant on this stuff. They, they preached that it was the heart that had to be changed. And they wrote about this in very analytical detail. Yeah. It's also not fluffy though. I think in something, there's something, I mean, they should come across as well. I don't need to worry about doing the right thing. Um, I'm, I'm just with Jesus and me and Jesus are going to go and do stuff. But in my experience of there being the person and not being the law, that can be really tough as well. There's been times in my life when Jesus said, you need to stop doing this now. And that was really hard. But he, but he was with me in that stopping doing it. Because in the law, what would I have had? I did just have had me trying to, me trying to stop it or me turning a notebook or stopping it because just ignore the law because I'll do my own thing. Because that's what the law reveals. The law still wraps up the my way thing. So it's not to say that this is easy. It always involves some form of death of a letting go of a surrender. It's always that paradox. Yeah. But that's much easier in a relationship than it is just following a list of instructions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't, don't. And the part of you that goes do, do, do. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to draw this part of the conversation to close. I'm going to get you to give your takeaways. Neil, I know you've got to slip out because you've got a press to be planning. The press for to plan is coming up. I think we did it. The church has got the nose shuddered. Does he hear me say those words? So sadly, you have to leave this, you know, ivory tower conversation and go and live out the rule of love. Love love in the passing of laws. Yeah. Exactly. So I'm going to get you to give your takeaway, first of all, and then you'll, you'll drop out and Jen and I'll do general knowledge. I think it's the thing you've repeatedly said, I will remember forever about Romans chapter seven, now the thing you've said again in the end, Jen, is it's, it's not being changed by a set of rules, it's been changed by a person. And that person is Jesus and the power of the spirit. And that's the fundamental thing. Yeah. Good takeaway. Good takeaway. Jen, what's your Oh, um, just that thing I kept on saying that Neil's now saying. I think maybe it's a strange takeaway, but these kind of chapters of the Bible, if I can just get sort of stuck in a certain way of thinking, and then that just makes me kind of skim over it because I like, it's just that same thing again going on about, I don't know what to do, I don't want to do, but that's stopping and reading what other people had thought about it. Life changing. So take the time to read what other people have thought about it. Well, you know, it's just open my mind and made me re-encounter God in a new way. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to think more about the law pushing us towards that rebellion. Do you want me to give you an illustration about this? I was, I was, I was hesitant about using this, but I'll go on. So there's two examples. One that John Stott uses, which is Augustine wrote about this, he talked about his sin of stealing. I think it was payers actually, but he did it because he was told not to do it. It was a famous example. But the other one is the origin of the chaperone. Apparently, we used to think that the chaperone was there because a kind of well-behaved man and woman who were not yet married would take a chaperone with him to make it above all doubts that nothing untoward had happened. Apparently, the origin of the chaperone was to cause you to be more attracted to the person that you were with. Oh, how interesting. That's a, that's a great illustration. I'm glad we got to that in the last few minutes on this episode. That is very helpful. Well, that's why I'm going to go and think about it. So if you're there with that person going, don't you're like, oh, I really want to. And apparently, yeah, the law is the chaperone. Yeah. Gosh, that's really interesting. Yes. Great. Good. Well, very fruitful as ever. Of war. I have a good Presbyterian planning meeting. I hope that goes on praying for you in that. Good stuff, Neil. Well, as ever. And next time we're on chapter eight, obviously, so we'll know that in advance. Jen, general knowledge, what have you got for us? It's that time of the week when all will be revealed because ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, it's time to search for some answers. No question too hard. No answer guaranteed. Let's talk general knowledge. Well, it's quite a tricky one, but isn't that great? And we really need some more questions coming in because all the people I asked them for have been asking quite a lot. And they, they might need to be break for a few months. After the well. I mean, a big shout out to Burnside Blair Beth. Yeah, they've been great. And their friends, they've, you know, their issue groups, they go to in other places that they meet other people, they've gathered in the question. So it's great. Yeah, so this question comes from someone who's a, she's not, she's not old. What is old? Anyway, she's a student, a university student, and she and I have had lots of questions back and forth over the past year. So I'm going to share one of first because she has great questions. And her question is, I was reading in first Corinthians chapter five this morning, before church, nice wee detail, and I was wondering if you could help me with it. I was confused a bit, verse three to verse five, where Paul says to hand the sexually immoral man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. What does that mean? I don't quite get why we would be handing someone over to Satan. I love this question because it just comes up in daily. She's obviously reading Corinthians. She's like, what is that? Which is great. That's just a great way to explore the Bible. So, yeah, where did you begin with that? There's a lot of thinking you did to begin with that. So I did a bit of reading and I was thinking handing over to Satan probably really means excluding this person from the community of believers so that they had a, he had a chance to repaint and so he could be restored back to his old life. A lot of commentators said that he would die to his old life and become in his new life. It should be, but it ties into what we're talking about today. And it's really hard for us, I think, in the contemporary church to think about how you would kick someone out of church. But I think what might be helpful is probably, from what I read, this person was called by quite an influential person in the church. And if you think of some of the many Christian leaders, and we don't need to think very hard, in recent days who have been found to be abusive, they then had to be removed. They weren't outside God's love, but they're outside the community. And actually, maybe if we were a bit, just the word, direct, stricter with some of our, some people's behavior, I'm quoting myself in this, if this was me, some people's behavior earlier on, I think this, I mean, if you look at all these cases recently earlier on, someone had said your behavior is not right, you can't be part of the church fellowship at this point because of how you're behaving. Maybe the awful situations that we're now reading about, and people who've been impacted, but maybe that wouldn't have happened. So the world, we read this, and we think it's really, really harsh. Sometimes that need to challenge each other on our behaviors within the church. And this is very much about people in the church, it's not people out in the community. It actually prevents damage to other people, but that love thing, it's not just the thing I want to do, but the thing that is based for everybody. So I hope that's kind of helpful, because these are tricky passages. And then Neil, hopefully, who's not here yet anymore, but he did a bit of reading on it, and he said, apparently, if you read the same Corinthians chapter two, and two Corinthians seven, there is some indication that maybe the same man was then restored to the church community. Actually, he'd gone through some healing and restoration, and he was back in the church, which is, if that's true, that's a good conclusion to the situation. To the story, yes. So tricky stuff, but... Yeah, but I think you've illustrated, you and Neil, they have both illustrated something, which is partly taking the time to look at the verse within the wider book, chapter and book, but also to go to other places and do some reading. And you've talked about this already, this episode, that sometimes you do, you need to kind of think, well, what have other people thought about this over the years in order to make sense of it and sort of join the dots up? We need each other. Yeah, we do need each other. Well, thank you so much. That was... I'm not adding anything else into your answer, I thought your answer was great. But thanks listeners for being with us. Welcome to 2025, in year six of the outspoken Bible. Join us next time when we will be talking about Romans 8, and don't forget, if you want to drop us a little line by email or by social media, then we love to hear from you. I've spoken at ScottishBibleSociety.org, but in the meantime, we'll speak to you next time. [Music]
