Test Match Special

England v West Indies: Bashir bags 5 as England win emphatically

Jonathan Agnew is alongside Alastair Cook, Michael Vaughan and Carlos Brathwaite on the Trent Bridge pitch for reaction to Shoaib Bashir taking five wickets and England bowl the West Indies out in just one session to seal the series against West Indies.

Captain Ben Stokes reveals he didn't see a victory coming so quickly, whilst Bashir reflects on a "special" evening taking five wickets in his first time bowling on home soil. Player of the match Ollie Pope tells Aggers that he's pleased to return to form following a slow start to the season with Surrey, and downbeat West Indies captain Kraigg Brathwaite is still looking for improvement from his side despite a strong first innings with the bat.

Roland Butcher takes a look back on his career with Daniel Norcross, and hear the 'lighter' moments from the TMS commentary box during the test at Trent Bridge.

Duration:: 40m
Broadcast on:: 21 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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Learn more about our Beyond Zero vision for the future at Toyota.com/BeyondZero. [MUSIC] BBC Sounds, Music Radio Podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to Test Match Special Podcasts. I'm here at Trent Bridge, where England have emphatically beaten the West Indies with a date of spare. I should swing this arm, looking for his fifth wicket, it goes in and bowls his bowl in. It's all over, England have won by 241 runs. [MUSIC] And Shurbasha, has taken five for 41. [MUSIC] And his bowl really well is getting a huge hug. He's captain Ben Stokes. He's come with here from both captains, Ben Stokes and Craig Brathlete, and the player of the match, Ollie Pope and also Shurbasha, who took five for in a dramatic evening session. Will have analysis of the day's play and the test as a whole from Sir Alistair Cook, Michael Vaughn and Carlos Brathlete, and Roland Butcher takes a look back on his career. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Michael, that has a little bit quicker, isn't it? Yeah, I didn't expect that. I mean, I think we knew we were on there when they took drinks. 61 for north, the Western is at a perfect start. Couldn't have gone any better. And then that wicket's straight away after drinks, and it's just been a bit of a clip-so-collapse. So, from nowhere, just lost a load of wickets. Good bowling from England. I think it's been a week where they've been tested. I think the Westerners have improved a huge amount from what we saw at Lords, and England have been tested. I think you're looking at the likes of Gus Atkinson, bold nicely, a bit there for him on day four with a bit of unevenness, and he hit that length perfectly. Mark Wood's only got two wickets throughout this week, his beyond me, but the young last spin. I mean, the first thing is he kind of was drifting him into the right-handers, and there wasn't a great deal there for them, the young spinner. I always judge a finger spinner in the UK in the second innings, because I don't think there's a great deal there in the first innings, but in the second is there's always just a little bit of purchase, and he bolded beautifully. A skill, you know, a real skill, and he did get the odd boarder go away from the right-hander, which we didn't see in the first innings, and whether it's the fact that there was a little bit rough there, and it was spinning a little bit, and he just kind of got confidence with that early wicket or two, but to see skill, and to see a spinner just blast a batting line up a way like that. I mean, the last five for here for a spin, it was in 2006, and it was a spinner from Sri Lanka called Mataima Relittinen. Monty Panasai got a five for in that game as well, but yeah, you go back to selections, and so far, this is some with the debutante of Jamie Smith. He's been an excellent selection, Gus Atkinson, he's played two test matches, he looks pretty good, and obviously the young spinner who they've picked ahead of Jat Leach, who's an experienced pro, he looks like he's an ice selection as well, so... - Set a wicket to them, actually. - Yeah, outstanding. You're looking at England, and I think they wanted, look, you want to win, but you also want to be tested, and for three and a half days, this West Indian team have really challenged the England side, and they've had to fight and work really hard to get that victory. Well, here's the man we're talking about, show him. Many congrats, stop shaking with them by the hand, come on, talk to me. Many congratulations, that's a fantastic performance. Yeah, it was special, first time I bought in England for England as well, so yeah, it was quite special to finish it off in a session. That's right, we were talking about it being your second test, but of course you didn't do anything in the first. Yeah, it was a quiet one in the first, so obviously it was Jimmy's last test, and just to be a part of that was special, and to play at Trent Bridge, first time I went to Trent Bridge as well, so it was very special. Good. How did you feel, because there's always that little bit of extra pressure on a spinner, last test match, the day of a test match, a bit of turn and so on, did you feel any of that, or did you just go out and bowl? Oh, well, I watched him clearball, and he wasn't really getting much spin, so I wasn't really hopeful, but I guess things can happen quite quickly and quick it, and yeah, it was just nice to get something out of the wicket, and yeah, just bowl them out. Yeah, because he did turn it, actually, there were a couple of balls that turned nicely there towards the end. Yeah, it was nice. Yeah, I don't really know what to say. Oh, well, just enjoy the occasion, enjoy the feeling. Who's helped you? Who are you talking to around this England camp? You're new to it here. You went on to it to India, but who's here you do have? Everyone is so fair. The youngest in the group, everyone gets around me quite nicely. I work closely with Jim Patel. I've been bowling coach, obviously, and yeah, it's just nice. He gives me a lot of tips, hard to bowl on different wickets. Obviously went to India, that's a different challenge out there, but I thought, first in things, I wasn't as consistent as I probably should have been. And yeah, it's just nice in the second innings to cash in. Yeah, and then we do all very inexperienced, it's just a first-class career as well. So to get a five-wicket all like this, it really sets you up now. Yeah, it was a nice feeling. And yeah, still just trying to soak everything in. It happened so fast, that last session, so yeah, just enjoying it. There aren't many off-spidders, taller than me, show, I'll tell you that. So that gives some idea of people listening. Wait, six foot, five, four? Six foot, four, yeah, still grand. Well bold, brilliant stuff, thank you, thanks for talking to us. There we go, it's tall ladder for an off-spinner, isn't it? Yeah, you're shrinking. I think that's how you jump, unfortunately, but yeah. Yeah, that's one of his natural attributes, is the hype. I was so impressed today with the development of what we saw in the first innings, where he's obviously thinking about trying to just be contained into a job for the team. And then when it was his chance to attack, he had the ability to attack. I think we're slightly right, and the first thing is like, "Well, we're not seeing anything away, Driff, he's got it, he's got it." He was just him probably tactically, not going to be absolutely perfect in the first innings. But in the second innings, to bowl that line, that attack ends, the quarter-json hole didn't get him out, the one he'd managed to drag him forward and spin in the inside, Graham Swan would have been proud of that. And that's his potential, that's why he's been picked. See, we've got time quickly to speak to Craig Brathott, West Indies captain. Disappointment, you were going nicely, there's 61 for no wicket. Yeah, it's a tough loss, we pretty much lost 10 wickets in one session, so it's not good enough. But overall, I mean, try and discard, that actually was a better performance overall, wasn't it? Yeah, it was obviously better than a lard, but still really well, we weren't as consistent as we should have been. And really bad for our seniors, we were good, but we weren't getting second in. So, I mean, to win the test match, you've got to be doing everything good, to be honest. And you're two Dominicans in the first innings, so have a word about that, and they played brilliantly. Yeah, they played well, it was good to see. Obviously, they're good friends, and we're happy for them. Obviously, that's history now, we've got to continue in on the third test. And again, they come so quickly, it's very hard to regroup, isn't it? I mean, pretty much a custom, you know, to three days in between test matches. It's got to get your money back in your right space. You know, that's mostly important, and come mentally tough again. Thank you, Greg, I thought you'd have to go over there. Thank you for talking to us. There we go, a disappointed question. And captain, of course, to lose all those wickets like that quite so quickly. Go on, then, Carlos, you've probably got a few more words to say than that about the West Indies performance, which... I mean, if you are the captain, you're trying to look for positive things. You're trying to also positive things to ask the man. But, you know, the shame is that actually quite a lot of positivity in this game is that they've fallen in a heap. Yeah, but I think there's a lot of positives. I mean, what we saw in the last hour and a half is what we expected from day one. We didn't get it, we saw three and a half, there's a tough cricket, ebbs and flows. There are certain passages in play where you saw the inexperience, you saw the ill discipline that comes from an experience. And at some point in time, you've got to realise that that will only change and stop and give you a chance to chat to Ben. Then go and skip up. Here we go. Big smiles again. Well done, Ben. That was quite something. Yeah, it was. I didn't see it happening that quickly when the opening partnership thought they played well. But sort of you can send towards the back end of our innings that the wicket sort of started misbehaving a little bit more than it did the first three days. I thought a couple were bouncing, keeping it a little low. But yeah, I think the way that we fought back after we took that first wicket was impressive and obviously bash getting five wickets on a wicket. I didn't really offer that much. I think he showed his class and his ability to be able to change his pace, undercut the ball. Obviously the wicket he got chasing with was a great example of that, but yeah, I think he showed the world what he's got. Well, he did. There's always a bit of expectation, pressure on a spinner in the last innings of a test match, isn't there? If he's never bolded a test match, you know, before he's never bolded here before either. Does it stand up like that? Yeah, again, it was a great opportunity for the lights of Gus bash again to come out and ball, you know, a side out in a test match. I thought Gus came back really nicely there with a reverse swinging ball and showed another side to his game that he's got. And obviously, I think Woody's not got as rewards as game that he deserved pace. It was remarkable to see and that's obviously why we value him so highly. And I thought he would bring in the partnerships with the guys that were bowling at the rent throughout the whole game. I think bash got two wickets in the first innings and I think that was on the back of bowling with Woody. So it's not always about the person who gets the wickets. Sometimes, you know, bowling in partnerships talk about batting in partnerships, but I also think this game was a good, you know, sign of that. You can do that on the bowling side as well. One of the series, I'm going to go right up here. You've got one to go here, three against Sri Lanka, so you're on that roll for the sixth win, so I guess you're really looking for this summer. Yeah, you know, great start after a, you know, long break in between test series. You know, we played some really good cricket so far. Still think we can get better. So yeah, really looking forward to the next four games. Goodbye, see you at Birmingham. Oh, there's a man, the match is here. Ollie, I'm sorry. You were standing very quietly in the background. Probably watch your well played, well played. Thank you, yeah, no, happy with our play, but yeah, more important. Getting the win in the next day, off is always handy as well. Yeah, any sort of feeling that sort of collapse could happen? I think there was a chance. I think we saw that the way the ball was kind of standing up a little bit and then the oddball was shooting a little bit. And then when we got it reversing as well, it was never going to be easy facing guys like Woody and Gus running in there. And I thought, yeah, like Stokes, he was just saying, bash ball beautifully. I think he looked like he was just had chances of taking wickets from the butt, first ball he bowled, so credit to him. I mean, I've not really come across him much. He seems a very relaxed fellow. I mean, to come up with his first ball in a test match at England, the first time he's played here. And to step up, last innings of a test match to ball like that, so it's a bit about his character, I think. Oh, absolutely. I mean, he's got so much confidence, but in a great way, I think, if I was walking in and his shoes out, I probably did it at a similar age and he's got a lot more confidence than I did when I was at age as well. So I think credit to him on how he bowled, he barely bowled a bad ball throughout both innings. So yeah, very happy for him. Talk me through fielding at Shortleg to Mark Wood's first spell in that inning. So I mean, it was pretty torrid from the commentary box, to be honest. Oh, I mean, I think Woody, he just bowled out of his skin. He bowled the speed of light and on the pitch, which was skidding through a little bit and not quite getting up the whole time. Credit to how Hodge went about his innings. I mean, that was a serious bit of bowling he got through there from Woody, and he didn't quite get his results this week, but I think we'll see some more polls hopefully next week. Yeah, it's not as a bit of banter going on as well, wasn't there between the two of them? I mean, in the heat of battle, you can still exchange a friendly word or two. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's not too much you have to say when you bowled in 96 miles an hour, and Woody's not really the guy who does it too much, but I think the bad is we're kind of having a laugh, but at the same time, they got really stuck into the bow, so fair play to how they went about their innings. Could you feel that speed? And when you are at the short leg, there's a few yards back away. I mean, can you feel, hang on a minute, this is pretty serious. Yeah, absolutely. I think when you see it just sort of hitting the, I mean, the way it kind of hits the splice of the bat and a few on the body as well, and it was just lightning. I mean, Woody, I mean, the way he's sort of managing his body at the minute is awesome, and he's bowling so well. It's a thrill with your form. Hey, really outstanding. Yeah, yeah, I'm feeling feeling good at the minute. Obviously, I had a lean patch for Surrey at the start of the year, but I feel like I've been working hard on my game, so hopefully the rewards keep coming. Did you have a word to a chance to ask Ben about Jamie Smith, but, you know, he hasn't he kept well? Yeah, Smudge has kept beautifully. I think the way he's got about it, obviously, he hasn't kept with a Red Bull for, well, he kept one game for Surrey, but other than that, he's not done a great deal, and he's got amazing hands, and he's been moving amazingly as well, so credit to him. I think that catch standing up as well was a really good one. On Under Edge is never easy to take as a keeper, so credit to how he's come in, obviously, with a bat last week and in the first innings, and the what he's done with the gloves has been great to see. Nice talk, Julie. Good. That's a huge, that's a magnum, isn't it? You can enjoy that. It's a bit warm. I'll whack it in the freezer, and hopefully I'll get cold. Enjoy day off. Bye-bye, Ollie. Thank you very much indeed. Well played. A century and a half century for Ollie Pope, which is standing quietly, wasn't it? You're ignoring your magnets. I wasn't quite sure I was going with Ben anyway. There we go. What do we say? I mean, they've all... Actually, we haven't really had a chance to talk much about Jamie Smith, but he has kept really well. I think of all the talk going into this series, him and folks and stuff, but he's done a decent job. Yeah, he has. I don't think it was that easy for the keeper, particularly today, because the up ball was keeping low, the up ball was flying through. We always talk about keepers, and when we don't talk about them, whether they're doing a decent job, he just looked very comfortable. You forget the step up from Karate Cricket, just the pressure of playing Test Match Cricket. There's more eyeballs, we're talking about him, and he just seems to be able to cope with the attention of what Test Match Cricket brings. A lot of England have had a good couple of Test matches, good selections, a couple of debutants, a young spinner. I think he's the youngest bowler to get a fiver for England since Jimmy Anderson. Yeah, right. I've just read something on a stat alert. Now, I've not clarified that with the statos that we have in Andy Zoltzmann, Nick Miller on the telly, but that's remarkable. You just think now he's only played five Test matches, and he's got three, five Wicket Halls. For someone that's played, is it 14 first-class matches? So he's hardly, he's 20 years of age, he's hardly bold. You know, you talk about spin ball, as we think, and talk that they have to have ball for years and years and years to learn the craft, the art of all the different conditions. Well, he's kind of put that to bed, doesn't he? Just be 20, don't bowl a lot, go into Test Cricket, get three, five Wicket Halls in the space of five Test matches. I'm just looking at him now, going over there. He must be the tallest off-spinner to play for England. I mean, I don't think I can remember a spin bowl of that at all. You're just maybe trying to think, is there a spin bowl or as tall as him? Pat Pocock was quite tall, but I'm not counting you, Michael. So, 6 foot 4. So then Ben's a good shout, the old West England. I think I was in England, actually, to be fair. Sorry, I didn't listen to your question again. I shouldn't have been, probably, would be taller. I just think what, the ceiling for him is, again, so much higher. You were talking about, you've got to fill it, Ben. I'll just throw that, and they're sorry. You've got to bowl a spin to learn your craft. But what we are, we're seeing, is this bloke is learning on the job and yet still delivering the goods. So that is where they are. There is nowhere near the finished article. What will be fun is, when in 10 years' time, if he's still going and still playing, he'll look back at the core. It wasn't very good then, and yet he's still doing, you know, the job for England. Again, I'm so impressed with the difference he bolded in this innings today. He tacked, he got their drift, the ball he didn't get Jason Holder out, the one he dragged in between when he was making the drive. When he did him in the flight, he's got plenty of reds on it, so fair play to him. Fair play to England to pick him. Again, he had to go out alone from Somerset to go to Worcester. It seems madness, and he's got the attitude and the ability to handle the pressure out in the middle. I haven't seen Somerset's fixtures for August. Whether he gets a game, I mean, how does all that work out of the way? I would think against Sri Lanka in the three matches. In the test, it's on 21st August or something, that's three weeks off. Yeah, I don't know what he'll do after next week, so it's much at age-basting, but I don't really think it matters. I mean, he's, you know, wanting to have done and Rob Key and Luke Wright, they're almost ripping up the traditions and history of what we've usually done in selection, where you have to go and play a few years in Carricket, particularly bowlers. You know, it's not many bowlers have been picked very, very young and particularly spinners. You know, and they've basically seen a kid who, you know, let's be honest, he tried at so many clubs before Somerset took a chance on him. And very quickly, he's been pushed into the England side because they see the skill. They see, as Alistair says, the ceiling of what he can get to. And already inside five matches, he's, like, I don't know the stats of English spinners in the history of the game, but I can't imagine many have got three fifas in the space of five test matches. And to get a five for the first time of asking in England, you know, particularly at Trent Bridge, there's not many spinners get five wicket hauls here at Trent Bridge. The skill side in the second innings, in the first innings, I was watching it at all. I'm not sure, particularly the right hand at all, it's all angled in. In the second innings, I saw straight away the skill element and probably the confidence of getting a wicket early. And he suddenly started to get a ball that was like an under-spinner, which it did offer a bit of shape away from the right hander. And then he's got the drift, he's got that fastball. Yeah, he's a very good selection. Yeah. And the same question, I guess, could be applied to Smith, although they might say, well, look, Smith doesn't need to keep a wicket at Surrey. He's doing a great job without having to do it. Well, that's something down the road, which is another thing that's going to crop up. Of course, if you've been folks done outstanding job for Surrey, they see him as a number one. And maybe this time next year when Jamie Smith needs some keeping time for Surrey, before next summer, I don't really want to have that conversation, because maybe probably Ben Folks won't have a central contract, so England won't have any power over who plays or what. So that's another bridge that's not for today. What is today is he has been, had done an outstanding job. I saw him play as a batsman, and I thought he had the package. I saw a 50 against Simon Hall of 170 balls, where he daps again to save the game, and I saw the destructive nature, which I think everyone knew about because I've seen in T20. So I was not worried at all about his batting. We've seen good examples of that. Anything about his keeping, because no one really seen him keep. But he's come in here, and he's made it look very simple. Ultimately, it's just catching with gloves on, as I've always told keepers. But that's what he seems to do, and the catch standing up with the bottom edge. That's not an easy chance. That is a really difficult chance, and he took it very well. Anyone who's been grumbling a bit about a selection, if you look at that, you've got a dolphin cat. Ultimately, when you first come into Test match cricket, however you've been selected, do these players look like they belong in an England shirt? Yes, they do. Are there going to be challenges ahead that are going to be a lot tougher than the Westerners? Yes. You know, we know in a year's time, probably in the winter, Pakistan away, New Zealand, be a little bit tougher, Sri Lanka at the back end of our summer. You know, they're OK, but they're not the Premier League in what I describe as Test match standard. Next summer will be the challenge, India here, and then obviously a few months after that, Australia away. And keeping, when you know you're going to get chances, but when you're keeping, when that one chance is going to matter. You know, it could be Steve Smith, Marner, Flabbershae, Mitchell Marsh. I guess that's going to be the ultimate challenge. But you can only do what's in front of you, and so far, they've all looked very much like England Test match cricketers, and they've done a fantastic job over the course of two games. Yeah. Quick word for you, Carlos. You've been speaking to your captain over there. You've looked a bit downhearted. Yeah. I mean, I was talking to some friends from home, and someone posed a really good question to me. Have I ever seen the West Indies be good in Test cricket? And, you know, everyone throws back to you, needing a strong West Indies team, and how electrifying the West Indies team was in the '60s, in the '70s, in the '80s. But if we'd be honest with ourselves, my generation has not seen a successful West Indies team. So I think the comparisons kind of steal the joy of what we are seeing, knowing how far away we are. And if I look at that Test match and maybe don't cast about the last hour, when, if we'd be honest with ourselves, we thought that last hour would have been the first hour on day two. Yeah. Then I'd taken a really joy that I would have amassed over the last three days of watching a team that, against the odds, fought against the experience, against the skill set, against a team that's more experienced, more well-equipped, and just better. And you're talking, let's say, in football terms or in F1 terms, there's always the middle of the pack, the back of the pack. And there's certain expectations, and I just feel as though this West Indies team is being asked to live up to the expectations of 40, 50 years ago. When, for 40 years, we've been rubbish, and we've been bad. So I think you start here, and you look at lords, you look at knots, and you see an improvement. You look back at the GABA, and you saw the first test, there was an improvement there as well. The team has shown that once they're kept together, once they play a high level, pick it together, they have performances, they have fight, they have grit, they have determination. After this test series, and after South Africa, what comes next? Probably five months in the wilderness, and then the cycle starts all over again. So the question is moving forward has to be, when we have a performance like the GABA, then we have a fighting, gritted performance like these first three and a half days. How can we continually build on that and stop having to reset? Every six months, and I think that is where the conversation should be, and not just taking away what happened in the first three and a half days, and looking at what happened in the last hour. Well said, Carlos, I think a lot of people will be agreeing with that. Andy Zoltzmann, many stats that grab your eye? Well, yeah, let's look at show of Bashir three, five-weeket halls in his first five tests, and his first seven, and he didn't even bowl in one of those tests. And he's only the third England bowler to have three fifers in his first five tests, or his first seven innings, since the first World War, the other two, Ian Botham, and Nick Cook, both former teammates of yours. Agus, he took three wickets inside his first three overs, only the seventh time in test history that a spinner has done that in this country. In terms of his figures here at Trent Bridge, five for 41, the second best ever for England on this ground by a spinner. You've got to go back to Bernard Bozenk in 1905, the inventor of the Googly, who took eight for 107 for better by an England spinner. Seven wickets in the match. The only spinners to do that on this ground since Nick Cook in 1983 were Warren three times, and Mattai Murilithrin once. So this is pretty illustrious company that he's keeping. In fact, the only spinners with better figures in an innings at Trent Bridge than Bashir's five for 41. Murily, Shane Warren, Bozenk, who I mentioned, and Bill O'Reilly, the great pre-war Australian leg spinner. So, yeah, truly extraordinary performance. And the shape of the game, 1,202 runs for 23 wickets, and then 239 runs, 17 wickets in 60 overs as the game accelerated to a rapid end. And Mark Wood's average speed in this game, 91.2 miles an hour. It's the fastest match bowling ever recorded in this country. So, yeah, it's been fascinating. Also, 400 in the first three innings for only the seventh time in test history, and it's the first match in which England have scored 400 in both innings. And I'm going for Fledman, certainly in recent memory of a taller spinner, maybe. What do you think? I don't have height stats. Well, that's something that will keep me going over the next year on your day off tomorrow. Andy, there you are. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Listen up, corporate types. It's me, Billie Eichl. You might use Workday's responsible AI to future-proof your business. That doesn't make you rockstars. When have rockstars ever been responsible? Be a finance and HR rockstar with Workday. This podcast is brought to you by E-Harmony. The dating app to find someone you can be yourself with. Why doesn't E-Harmony allow copy and paste in first messages? Because you are unique, and your conversations should reflect that. E-Harmony wants you to find someone who will get you. How are you going to know who gets you? If people see you the same generic conversation starters, they message everyone else. Conversations that actually help you get to know each other. Imagine that. Get who gets you on E-Harmony. Sign up today. We're doing the Teen Temple here at Trent Bridge. Dan Norcross spoke to the first black player to play for England, Roland Butcher, and going on a trip down memory lane. Dan brought up something he wasn't too happy about with Roland. I remember you breaking my heart in the final, I think it was 1980. Must be a sorry fan. Are you exactly correct? And you and Vincent van de Beylen. Mike Briely, Edmunds, Embry, Norman Cowens et Al. It was an incredible Middlesex team that you played for. And it was pretty dominant, wasn't it, from about 1976? You started playing for them in '75, was that right, '74, '50? I came in '72 and debuted in '74. And for the next, what, 13, 14 years? What I suppose all the way up actually to your retirement in 1990? We won the championship that year as well. All right. You won a whole host of titles. I mean, you won Gillette Cups, and then Nat West Cups, Benson and Hedges, and the kind of championship. That must have been quite the team to play for, wasn't it? Daniel, it was a great time to play for Middlesex. I mean, we were very lucky that we had a lot of good young players who came through all at the same time, which meant that 10, 15 years later, we were all still playing in the same team. We were also very well led by Mike Briely, and we also had some top-notch overseas players. I mean, when Daniel was the main strike baller for about 10 years, then, as you said, we had Vincent Baller by Jeff Thompson. So, we were very lucky to have had those sort of players, which helped us to be successful. I mean, it was really a full-on international eleven, sometimes that Middlesex would put out. So, when you got the call up to play for England, you know, being as well as a Beijing, you're a Barbadian. You're born in Barbados, spent the first 13 years. And a half, yeah. Right. You would have known what was expected of international cricket because you were surrounded by them, but the challenges was going to play against, well, the greatest team that drew breath, you might say, the 1980-81 West Indies side. Give us a flavour of some of the players you're up against. Well, I think, first and foremost, to really get the opportunity to represent England, to play this cricket was a dream for me. As a youngster in Barbados, I dreamed about being in this national cricket. I had no idea that it would be 4,000 miles away for a different country, but saying that, you know, when the opportunity came, I was very fortunate, actually, in 1980, to make my debut against Australia. In the ODI, I played an edge best, and that was my first game. And then, following the final that you said against Surrey, as you let cut final, I then got selected to go to the West Indies. Now, you were right. West Indies at that time were the best team in the world, well, and well, simply because they had some terrific bowlers, top-plane batters, you know, they had a good captain, and they were in the middle of a great run. So, it was always going to be a very difficult situation, but something that I look forward to, because it's something I would be able to do my whole life for. What did it feel like? I mean, I've asked Ricardo Elcock, this as well, who also played for Middlesex, and he got selected for the '89-'90 tour, and '89 years later, didn't get the chance to play. It didn't happen because of his injury to his back. But what it felt like going back home to Barbados, but to be putting on the jumper of England, was that a... Did you have mixed feelings, or was it just... This is just amazing. I'm playing International Cricket. Well, yes, listen, it was pretty much that. Listen, I was very fortunate that the guys that I was on tour with were people that I'd spent a lot of time with. They had a good complement of Middlesex players in the team. There was John Embry, myself, Mike Gatton, Paul Downton. So, from that perspective, that was very comfortable. Both of them was the captain, somebody who I started my professional career with. We were young professionals with the MCC at the same time. And then over the years, Graham Gooch, Jeff Boycott, David Garo, guys, I'd played with many years. So, that was very comfortable returning to the West Indies. I wasn't sure of the reception that I would receive when I get to the West Indies, because at that time, I remember when I got selected for England, I received a letter from a West Indian supporter, and he wasn't happy that I was playing for England. He addressed this letter to me, "Dear Butcher, you have no taken Black people back to the days of slavery." It's a bit hard. Yeah, a bit hard. Judas got 30 pieces of silver. How many of you get in? So, that was the sort of reaction I got. There weren't all like that. So, when I went to the West Indies, I wasn't sure what was actually going to happen. Fortunately for me, the first test was in Trinidad. And I didn't actually play in Trinidad. Then the second test was in Ghana, and I was due to playing Ghana, but you know what happened with the gentleman of fear, et cetera, that was cancelled. Yeah, the test match didn't happen. It happened. Jackman's links to South Africa. So, it meant we got to Barbados ahead of time, and that's how I managed to make my debut in Barbados. Otherwise, it would have been in Ghana. I probably would have preferred to have made it in Ghana, because in those days you played at border, which was a bad imperative. Yeah. Barbados in those days was quite fiery. But, you know, it was obviously a fantastic occasion to play. Even though it was marred on the second day with the death of our assistant manager, Ken Berrington. But apart from that, you know... But to my surprise, the fans were fantastic. And it continued right through the rest of the tour. When we went to Antigua and Jamaica, the reception that I got was... I wouldn't just say surprising, but it was overwhelming. I mean, it... people sometimes forget that in those two series, in '80, and then back again, in 1980 in England and then 1980, '81, it was a brilliant West Indies side. We're talking Croft Roberts holding Ghana. Roberts. Yep, and Marshall played in the '50s. Right. I mean, it doesn't really care much better than that, but England actually only lost at home one nil. And I say only, only lost away two nil. Yeah, me, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think they were both... I believe that that probably was one of the best England sides that they've ever had, because when you start with boycott, you had Cathy, you had Cathy, you had myself, you had Peter Willy, you had Paul Downton, you had both of them, you had Bob Willis, Graham Dilly, you know, it was a decent side. That just tells you the level that the West Indies were playing at the time, because both were batting in ball, and I mean, they had green-aged hands, Richard's, Lloyd, Gomes, and then the ballers that you mentioned. So, you know, to lose two nil to that side was not a disservice. Not at all. Did you feel, because you were sort of celebrated as the first black cricket to play for England? You must have been very aware of all that. Was there a lot of noise around then? Did you feel a sort of sense of responsibility or role model or anything like that? At the time, I never felt anything in relation to that. I was just happy to be selected to play International Cricket, to fulfill a dream that I had as a boy, and my main concern really was to play well and to continue playing. I think later on, the significance of that became more important to me. Obviously, people are reminded me all the time you were doing this. You're doing that. But I think what helped was the fact that then suddenly, I remember getting a letter from Norman Cohen's and, you know, and he was one of my teammates, but he was highly delighted. And Devil Malcolm Mothers, who said, "I got a minute." Well, you know, if he can do it, he's no different to myself. I can do it as well. So, then I started to understand later on the significance of my selection, that it really inspired others to believe that, you know, that they could do the same. And as it worked out, that's exactly what happened for those guys. Well, plenty did. Plenty of them played for Middlesex as well. The likes of Wilf Slack, as you have at all. Yeah, for Slackney, Williams, Norman Cohen's. And then you said, you know, Monty Lynch played, obviously, one of the years. I'm glad it's a small, and those guys came after. And, you know, they suddenly felt empowered. It was... That's when I really started to understand what the significance was. Thanks to Rodin Butcher and Dan for that conversation. Before we go, there have been some great moments out in the middle at Trent Beach, but let's listen back to some of the lighter moments from the commentary box. And as you were, that is the end of the over. But our TV screen says that Sinclair's bold 15.5, but the umpires have decided that he hasn't. He'd got one job. How about you, Andy? What did you make of that over, did you? Yes. Is that... I'm not entirely sure about that. See, it's a lot later than it looks. Now, the bowling figures are very briefly, you can read those out. It's all because I've gone to glasses. I'm sorry, Joseph, one for 61 from 10 overs. Jayden Seals, one for 69 from 12. Maybe it's had worth in the maternity ward. Things might be happening. Shh, get a move on. Get them while you can. It's on the way. Andy, you know you always hear about this one, one, one, Nelson, and you've got to be careful, and so on. I'd like to find out how many wickets in test cricket have actually fallen on 112 and 110 compared to just 110. It's just after lunch, for sure. You should be sufficiently energized. Oh, is it cold? God. The mission's taken. Somebody give him a Dutch relationship. I'm paid by the stats. Big debate going on here with this. It's curry goat, isn't it? Turned out it's curry chicken. Yeah, we say curry first. This is curry up. It's like called in the expert. Go on. Turned out is curry chicken. Turned out, it puts the curry before the meat. Okay. And then it puts the meat before the curry. There we go. Oh, well, there's no cover drive versus drive cover. No, it works. So if you -- we are all directly connected. Directly descended. I'm directly descended. No, no, you're probably -- you and Ann are probably fifth or sixth cousins. Oh, congratulations, Ebony. Come and get me a hug. World's leading genetic scientist. Right, okay. It's closed. Yeah. But we are basically all related. Oh, what was that for? Ebony has really put a bid in for a birthday present. Oh. The birthday cards are going everywhere. Goodness knows all the Christmas card bills are going to be. You could be my dad. I think it's going to be a shut down. But yeah, it's all -- whole cousin over there, look. And then -- same nose. It's extraordinary, though, isn't it? Same for it. Yeah, we're all similar. You can't look for similarities in everybody. And actually, the replacement ball hasn't moved. It's actually moved a little less than the ball. They're at the first ball. Are you sure? That's what the data says. I've just come and takes on a graphic downstairs on television. Oh. Demonstrates that the replacement ball has swung twice as much as the first ball. Oh, hello. We've got a data off. What have we got? It was some sort of plastic. It's a unicorn. Unicorn, is it? It's not a real one. It's not a real unicorn. It's not a real unicorn. It's a miracle. Unicorns do exist. You've just seen one. Anyway, it's all those plastic ones. Oh. It's inflated. It's flown over the ground. It's resting on the outfield somewhere, is it? It just broke the hearts of so many children. I think this might be a test cricket first. Unicorns stop to play. You can officially tell you folks, unicorn has stopped play. Before you go first, can you just do that "rude" again? I like it. Rude. Lovely. How why did I do that? It doesn't take the single. Atkinson is looking after Bashir here. A guy who averaged one before this innings. He said, "Excuse me, I'll have to strike." Yeah, it's cricket's weird, isn't it? Don't ask about Atkinson. There's one fast bowler who his run-up reminds me of. Hog? Correct. Robby Hog. Robby Hog. It's a skippy, skitty, quick little run-up. Here's Hog. Hog. Atkinson. You've got to go. They're turned away down to the long look. They're thinking about the second. Here he comes, running his baton at this end. A wild hug. It's so good. It's so like Robby Hog. I thought it was the way, wasn't it? It's tall, lad. It's really off-spinner, isn't it? Yeah, you're shrinking. I am, I think that's how you jump, unfortunately. That's it for this episode from the TMS podcast. Make sure you've subscribed on BBC's Sound, so don't miss a thing from this test series between England and the West Indies. And while you're there, check out my conversation with the former Crystal Palace footballer and now Five Life pundit, Clinton Morrison. That's available right now. The 100 starts on Tuesday. Five sports extra on BBC Sound, so commentary of the oval in Vincibles against Birmingham Phoenix on Tuesday. And there'll be television coverage as well. And Test Match Special is back on Friday for the final test. In England and Western is from Edge Baston. We're live from 10.25. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So, should we go electric? I think we should go electrified with Toyota. Electrified? Electrified means options. Yes, we could go all electric with a Toyota BZ4X, but then there are hybrids like Grand Highlander, or we could do something in between like a RAV4 plug-in hybrid. So, Toyota is electrified, diversified? Yep, and with more options for reducing carbon emissions, the closer we all get to Toyota's Beyond Zero vision for the future. Exactly, how much coffee have you had this morning? Learn more about our Beyond Zero vision for the future at Toyota.com/BeyondZero. Hey, I hear you think podcasts are all about true crime, huh? Well, wise guy, the iHeartRadio app's got all kinds of podcasts. 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