Test Match Special
Clinton comes to the cricket!
Jonathan Agnew welcomes former Crystal Palace and Birmingham striker Clinton Morrison to the TMS commentary box.
The 5Live football pundit discusses his friendship with former England bowler Alex Tudor, how he dealt with the pressure of developing through youth football, and the differences between captaining a cricket team to a football team. Plus, Clinton reveals the hard work that goes into being a pundit.
- Duration:
- 34m
- Broadcast on:
- 21 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
I have a secret. I wore the wrong foundation for years. Then I discovered Ilma Kiaj. Their AI-powered quiz makes it so easy to find a perfect match, customized for your unique skin tone, undertone, and coverage needs. With 600,000 5-star reviews and 50 shades of flawless natural coverage, this foundation is going viral for a reason. And with Try Before You Buy, you can try your full size at home for 14 days. Take the quiz at ilmakiaj.com/quiz. That's ilmakiaj.com/quiz. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those owners to your contracts, they said, "What the f*ck are you talking about? You insane Hollywood s*ck." So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45 up front for three months plus taxes and fees, promoting for new customers for limited time, unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month. So, it turns out Mint Mobile.com. BBC Sounds. Music. Radio. Podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Now, our guest sounds a very familiar voice to those of you who follow our football coverage on 5 Live. He's part of the BBC team, recovering the recent Euros, a man who made a career, scoring goals at Crystal Palace, Birmingham City, Sheffield, Wednesday, amongst others, and represented the Republic of Ireland on 36 occasions, scoring nine times. A big cricket fan who says, "Love it to see Clinton Morrison here in the TMS box." Dinton. Good afternoon. Good man. A shake of their hand. But you're used to all this. You just sit there now in these commentary boxes, you know, and you're used to the scene. Usually people come in and go, "Wow." Look at this. I have gone well. It is well, because I'm with different people, and I'm with a legend like yourself. So, it is different. And it's a different sport. But, no, I've probably enjoyed my cricket. I've enjoyed my cricket from a young age. I really like it. I'm trying to get more of my friends in to watch Test Match Cricket, because I think Test Match Cricket is outstanding as well. You've already won a point for saying that. Thank you. So, no you have. With the Test Cricket, that's kind of the thing. Did you play? That's the first thing to ask you. I played when I was at school. I wasn't the best. When I used to play when I was younger, I used to think, "I'll be alright." I was a baller. So, I was a fast baller, and they were saying, "Oh, Clint, maybe you need to go up the order and bat." So, I can't bat the balls too quick when they're bowling, quick bounces. I was trying to duck my way out of it. So, I played at school, and then I realized football was for me, and cricket's my second sport. Yeah. I guess you have to make that choice in the end. But, you see, that's a typical bullying fast baller. You bowl fast. You scare everybody else. Yes. And then when it comes to your toes, I don't think. No, I don't think. Yeah, I was like that. And even in fielding, I'd say, "Get someone else on the field, and I'll just wait." And when it's me, my time to bowl, I'll come back and bowl. But I can't do that nowadays. Did you want to be better? Was it frustrating? Did you want to be a cricket? I definitely wanted to be a better cricket. I loved, as I said, I loved the sport. I think it's a fantastic sport, and it's brilliant. I always like to be... We want to be the hero at stuff, and I would love to have been the hero playing cricket. But, as I said, I was better at scoring goals than I was bowling and batting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, therefore, you watch a lot of cricket. Yeah, I love it. I literally... I like it as much as I like football. Obviously, football will always tip it, because I play down football. But I love cricket. I watch all sorts of cricket, everything. Every cricket that's on the TV, I will sit down and watch it. People say, "I'm crazy, but I'm not crazy. I just love the sport." It can take five days. Oh, yeah. I watch the whole Test Match for five days. It doesn't bore me. You know, when people say about Test Match, it's not boring. You have to sit there. There's an art of that. What it's like, I was just speaking there to Sir Alistair Koch, who's a legend who I just met there, and we were just talking. That makes a good point. Sometimes football games are boring. They're not the best. Not every football game is boring. You only have a day in cricket or a session in cricket, but it's not good. It doesn't mean Test Match is not good at all. I think what Ben Stokes has done for Test Match and his England team took it to another level. You're saying that Ben Stokes had been to talk to the England team? I think he had. I hope I haven't got this wrong, but I heard someone saying it. I think it was when Aaron Ramsdow was on the other day and said Ben Stokes had been down, and he's obviously gone down to what I'm training before they went to the Euros. I think he was speaking to some of the players at St George's Park. Listen, me personally, you meet someone like Ben Stokes. It's a fantastic cricket. It helps. It's different sports, isn't it? You have football. It's different sports where they can talk to each other. I think Ben Stokes is a legend, so you're going to listen to him, aren't you? You can sense that crossover between what would make what Ben Stokes has to say to a footballer relevant, do you think? He's a winner. He's winning mentality, and he breathes winning. I like him as a captain. Sometimes someone's not having a good day in the field. He's always encouraging them. Sometimes in football, you don't always get encouraged, and you're thinking, when my next chance comes, how am I going to put that in the back of the net? Because I'm still thinking about the one that I missed before, and that could be where someone's dropped a catch, or someone hasn't bowled well, and it's been hit for four or six, so I think he's done fantastic. What I like about him as his captaincy is, there's pressure on him to deliver, and nine times out of ten, he does deliver. I know he'll be disappointed in getting out with that as well, like he did in the first innings where he was flying, but that's the competitor in Ben Stokes, and for me, he's a legend. Yeah, and it's interesting, because clearly, a major difference between the sports, or so it would appear to a non-footballer like me, is that actually the role of the captains are very different, and in cricket, clearly, the captain is the leader, he's the influencer, he is that, whereas in football, I don't know, the guy runs around with a band on, but does he do much more than that? No, you're right, I think in football, you can have 11 captains. Well, in the cricket, Ben Stokes is the main captain, even in yellow voices, because someone like Joe used to captain, will Mike go in his air and say something to him, but when it comes to football, I think if the captain's not having a good day on the pitch, who's going to bring the captain up, because you still need someone to lift you up if you're not performing on the pitch, and I think that's where you can have 11 captains, because in football, where he's been given the captain, don't mean he's the best player in the team, what it means is he's the best leader, either on the pitch or in the dressing room, because I think captains play a key role in the dressing room, how they are with when you get certain players who are quiet at going to their shell. I captain at a few clubs I was with, but I was a bubbly person, you couldn't shut me up, as everyone knows, you can't shut me up, I talk too much sometimes, and that's why I'm probably good at doing a commentary, because I don't know when to be quiet, but I think that's where you can have captains who are like that, and you know some players that need an arm rounder shoulder, or maybe some players that need to say you're not at it this afternoon, you need to liven yourself up. Could a captain be more influential on the football field, or is there that very defined role, you've got the coach on the sidelines and so on, would it get confusing? No, because I think once what the managers in the culture is a good at is the day-to-day, so for Monday to Friday when you're training, they deal with everything, and if there's a situation with players, I think you have leaders and the captains, and then the captains can have two or three people with him, that manage the dressing room, and that's what the manager does, and when you've crossed that white line and you go over and you take to the pitch, there's nothing can manager can do, it's all down to the players, and not every day you're going to perform when you go into that football pitch, but that's where your captain can sense where a player needs an arm rounder shoulder, or says come on, you're better than that, let's deliver, and I think with football you have your first touch, or your first tackle, or your first shot, and you hit the target, you feel you're going to have a good session, it's like cricket, I think if you're timing of the first stroke, and it goes to the boundary, you're thinking I could be here for a long one, and if you don't bowl well, you're thinking this could be a long day. Yeah, I'll go the back to when he gets one shot. That's what I'm saying, well that's the that's different, where I can miss eight chances, and the batsman can get, he can nick it and get caught. He might get to the stick, if he missed eight, I think I missed eight, but then it's still no no, but I scored a winner in the 90th minute, everyone forgets about that eight, as a batsman you're not a hero are you, because you nicked it and you've got caught behind or out slipped, so it's a difficult one, but yeah I never missed eight though, I only probably missed one. What, what, oh Ed Permat? No, I'm only joking yeah, very much. So who do you know, so when you're going and watching your cricket live, where do you tend to go? Well to be fair, I got into the cricket, because my good friend who I grew up with, Alex Tudor, he used to take me to Surrey. Oh right, obviously Alex Tudor got me into the cricket massively, because we grew up in the same area, so I'd always go to Surrey, Matt. What a lovely man, that works at the Oval. Yeah he's dad, now he's back in the bay, but he was always a bat living in Barbados, with the sunshine, can't blame him, can you really? Truly. Alex Tudor, 99. 99, oh yeah, I told him, like watch one. Yeah but it's better for him, he's more famous for not getting 100, everyone would have forgotten for the 99, so he still has nightmares about that, but no, and then I used to go and see, I call him uncle, Alex Tudor, because he's a legend, a big Chelsea fan, and I always live him about that, but he's good, Mark Rampakash and I bought you, I always used to go in the chain drum and then bring me in there, and I just used to grow into it, and that's what made me love cricket, and then you just watch the different eras and stuff like that, and I like it. People look at me and say, oh, how could you sit there and watch it? I said, because it's an entertaining sport. Yes, do you think it's accessible enough? I mean, you're from tuting. Yes. When I walked out about, in 1984, West Indies, that left-hand side was full of West Indian supporters, you're all gone, you know, they've been kind of priced out, there's cricket in schools, gone for the majority of people. I think we need to get that, but it's hard to pay wool, so it's hardly surprising. It is, and it costs a lot of money, I totally understand that. I think it's expensive sport, but I think we can do more for the youngsters, because I think there's a lot of talent in the same way where we're looking at football, and you see different backgrounds, not everyone can afford to send their son to the top of the range, football club or, you know, batting or bowling, whatever they want to do, but so it's difficult, but I think more can be done for youngsters to come through, because there's a lot of youngsters that do like the cricket, but it does take time, but if you're good, I always feel, Jon, and if you're good enough, you'll have a chance to make it one way or the other. A circle will come round and you'll get your opportunity. Yeah, don't you think you have to be able to see it, though? Do you have to be able to see your heroes? I used to sit and watch the test match on the telly, but like you, when I was a kid, shut the curtains, black might tell you in those days, but then you could see, in my case, Jon Snow, or Vailingworth, or these people who could see them, and then you'd think, "Oh, I want to be him," and you'd go out and pretend you're railing with a tongue poking out of your side of your mouth when you bowled, and all those little things, you know? You know what I would say to anyone, you know, you had a doubt in cricket, come and watch cricket live. I think once you come and watch cricket live, it's different watching out at home on the TV, but you think it's slow. When you come and watch it live and you're in the atmosphere, and you see, you know, when they're setting the field and where people are going and the bowling in there, because I'm watching it live, and when I've been watching it at TV, you don't know the Wicket Keepers stand so far about this, because the ball is traveling, at home, you don't think he's bowling at cricket. Obviously, you think Mark Wood is, because I thought the spell the other day is one of the best I've ever seen. That is, in terms of football, where you're in front of goal, and you have an every shot, and you've got a goalkeeper, he's amazing, and you're not getting any luck while you're hitting a post. I thought Wood the other day, his spell, it's fantastic. I like, he got nothing, but I like players like that, wholehearted, brilliant. The only thing I would say is maybe when he's doing his run-up, don't keep falling over. He thought he always has done. I know he always has that, but then when he does his warm-up, you never see him falling over. No, you don't. So that could be something that is in his head mentally. So much effort. Yeah, fantastic baller though. I love that. I imagine facing cricket ball coming at you at 97 miles. No, I can't even imagine for a nano set. You know what I would have done? If he's Mark Wood's, I'd keep putting my hand up. No, I'm not ready. I'm player. And then I'd say to the dressing room, I've got to go off. I can't face Mark Wood. He's a brilliant baller. Or move that side screen between him and me. Yes, exactly. Exactly. It is. And you're right. I always say to people, you know, fast bowling. You sit and watch on the telly. And yeah, it looks pretty quick. You come live and you sit especially sideways on these grounds. And yeah, you see how far back will he keep? And you can hardly see that ball going down. No, you can't. Sometimes you can't see it and then it's in the surface. Imagine that then these West Indian bowlers are nowhere near as quick as what Mark Wood is. So imagine Smith trying to collect a ball when it's on wood. And that's why I have to give credit to the Wicket Keeper. Wicket Keeper, sometimes because when it's coming down and it's wobbling and to hold on to that, that must be the hardest job as well, Wicket Keeper. They get a lot of stick for dropping catches, but it is hard. It definitely is hard. Do you follow West Indian cricket particularly? Listen, I love watching England. I'm a big England fan. I'm a big fan of and this one ball I hope he does come back because I think he's fantastic and play test match cricket. It's draw for a hard drive. The way he makes the game looks so natural, the way he comes up on both. He always has favorite cricketers and I'd say probably Ben Stokes, draw for a hard shot. I like Root. I think Joel Root's fantastic. One of the best batsman there is out there, makes the game look so easy. But I like West Indies cricket. It's gone downhill. I think over the years. Not in the T20 or the 50 over because they've got had people like the University of Boston, Dre Russell just entertaining. You're a Chris Gullman. I love Chris Gull. If I had to battle Chris Gull and I said we wanted to run at two, Chris Gull would say we're not running at all. I'm just going to pull it out of the stand to be fair. I do like that. That's charisma. I mean, he's charisma. I don't know what football is you have. In terms of just attracting people to a game and to a sport, it's not like Chris Gull. That's why I say T20 and 50 over cricket. That's why everyone likes it in particular T20, because it's a short format. When you watch someone like Chris Gull and Dre Russell putting it up in the six, even Carlos Braffwaite. I always remember that. Remember the name when Bishop's that? I've met Carlos because we've done question of sport before and I got more cricket questions right, more than him. Well, they call us. Yeah, I did. That's not hard. It's not hard though, but it's a nice guy and we're still messaging. We're keeping contact. So it's good to keep in contact with him. But I think Test Match Cricket is different and we should still be out here watching Test Match Cricket because, as I said, what Ben Stokes is doing with this England team for Test Match Cricket is fantastic. Do you worry about the future of Test Match Cricket? I do worry. I say you like all formats. Can you see Test Cricket kind of being pushed into the sidelines? No, because I think more of the top players have to carry on playing Test Match Cricket. So you like, obviously, I know Josh Butler's not playing today, but I still like Josh Butler to be playing Test Match Cricket. I think he's fantastic. You're obviously one day captain, but I don't think he'll get pushed to the side because I think when you've got the likes of Ben Stokes, he keeps pushing it and pushing it and it becomes entertaining. I think when you look at Test Match Cricket, like when the Lord's and it's over in three days, that's the frustrated. Yeah, it is. And then I think you look at West Indies and you're thinking, are they producing? But then you look at West Indies in this match in the first innings where a lot of people wrote West Indies off, they were fantastic. Young Hodge, the way he played, the 100 was fantastic. You look at him, you keep trying to bounce him, you just get hooking it. I thought he was fantastic, some of the shots he played. So yeah, those young players that they've got there, they've got a big future West Indies and I have to keep believing. They have finance and HR Rockstar with Workday. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous to your contracts, they said, "What the f*ck are you talking about? You insane Hollywood f*ck." So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45 up for three months plus taxes and fees, promo rate for new customers for limited time. Unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month, slow. Full turns at Mint Mobile.com. What was it like for you getting into football because a friend of mine has a young son, I think he's about 12 or 13. He was having trials about lots of county that's behind us here and he could feel the pressure on the young lad for a start actually and on the parents as well. And I was thinking when I knew I was going to be talking to you, there are football, don't get this wrong. No, no. You are footballing superstars who are out there. The names are in like course. Others have to do the hard work and you make a career out of it, you know, 600 on games. But to get into professional football, particularly, I mean, everyone assumes that the paper does pay for gold and everything. That's it. Your whole life is rosy for then on which I'm sure isn't the case. But did you have that sort of pressure on you? Did you feel that you just had to do? What was it like when you were trying to get up? No, it's different for me as a youngster growing up. I'll be honest with you, I'm going to be as honest as I am, can it? I didn't have much growing up. It was a single parent, so it was me, my mum, and my sister growing up. So we were in a council estate in South London. I knew I had a talent when I was growing up at football. I was determined. I did not want to have my family growing up in that council estate. So every time I went onto that pitch, I had a desire to work hard. You might not be the best, but the one thing I would always say is work hard. You work hard. You look at the best, these are the two best players that for me have ever played recently. You look at Ronaldo, you look at Messi. Messi had natural talent. Cristiano Ronaldo had to work hard to get to that talent. He's the best example I could say. And he's up there. That's a league football, but I'm saying anyone who's at 13 is hard. It's all about timing as well and luck because you can be one of the best players ever. But when the scouts there watching you that day, you could have an off day and he might say, "I can't work with him." And then the player who wasn't as good as what you are gets the opportunity. So it's all about timing. It definitely is timing, but you've got to have natural ability. But what I would say is I got released that Tottenham when I was 14 because I took my foot off the pedal because I thought I already made it. Then I went to Palace on trial. I went to Palace on trial. I was going to give up football. I didn't want football because it was a big knockback. I went to Palace on trial, scored a hatchet, never looked back. After my first season in the youth team, Tottenham came calling again and said, "Could we have you?" And I said, "No, you've released me. I'm at Palace." And then I made my debut when I was nearly 17 in the Premier League for Palace and scored. So you always hear of stories where it doesn't mean, as a youngster, where you've been released, like that's the end. No. If you've still got that determination and goal to be successful, you can push yourself. And that's what I always say. But that's in any sport. That's like cricket as well. That'll be players that get come back that think they're not good enough, but they can. There's mostly so many people trying to get into football. There's so many kids. There's so many parents, the pressure that's going on there. Well, parents sometimes, I've watched a lot, tried to play, live their kid's dream, because they didn't make it. They're on the sideline, shouting at their kids and telling them what to do. And I've seen a lot of that. Sometimes, the best thing is let the kids go and enjoy it. At 13 and 14, you're going to get pressure when you get to 19, 20, playing in front of 50,000 fans, and you're not producing, then you've got someone in the fan in the stand telling you you're not good enough. So just let the kids at 13, 14, go and enjoy this up and play over, smile on your face, because that's, for me, that's the best thing to do. Yeah, and social media these days must be. Oh, I'm so glad you were here. And I was being in that social media wasn't around, because I feel you can get sucked into it, and you can look at it. Even though you shouldn't look at it, and a lot of people say, you just can't help it, can you? And you have the negative comments. I'll be honest with you, when I first went into the cold, calm stuff and doing the media stuff and the pundit stuff, I would get a bit of a stick, and it used to bother me. But in the end, you embrace that, and you know what, it embraces you. You go and prove them wrong, you do your homework, and become better, and then you win them over. And the same people who are having to go at you before try to speak to you and be nice to you. You know what I do? I shake their hand and smile at them, because what they want you to do is go and have a go at them. But I don't do that. You have to play the game, you have to play the game really well, and that's what I try to do. Was it easy retiring? I don't know how you finished. No, I did. I finished you all. Yeah, I finished when I was 36. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in football. I wasn't one of those who spent loads of my, I invested my money, so I was clever with my money. My mom helped me a lot in that instance, and so did my wife. So they helped me a lot. So I invested, I invested in a lot into stuff. But it was the hardest thing, because they say prepare that you're going to retire. I never did. I was one of those who always fought, I was young, and would go and play on forever and ever and ever. And this is probably only the second or third time I've ever said that. I'm one of the most bubbly persons you meet. I suffered with a bit of depression. I suffered with a bit of depression. I wouldn't come out the house for a couple of months, because I think not so much where you miss the football and the pitch is the day-to-day interaction in the change room. So I was alive and solo. Keeping everyone going and stuff like that. So you do miss it. But once I got the opportunity to get into the media, I meet lovely people like yourself and be able to work with lovely people. And that's a big compliment. May I say, because I've met you before we came here and you're a nice guy. So and you meet good people and everyone I've met has brilliant. Far as a love father. I love that. It's very passionate. But that's what I like. I like passionate people, because he still loves the sport now, even and he's played it years ago and he still loves it now. I like the passion. That would be me. In any sport, I like the passion. If you want, I want people to do show that it cares. That's the big thing. Show it cares. People have come in here to watch you. Show it cares and it means a lot to you to represent your country and play. Did you find it easier going to the media then? I mean, you're a chatterbox, cracky. I can see that. It's of the discipline. I mean, yeah, I mean, people say, I want to go and do tell in and do football. But that's under a spotlight as well. And again, particularly football, I guess, because there's a lot of competition too, between the various networks and the commentary teams and all of that. I mean, it's not just a case of rocking up and picking up a microphone, is it? No, it's not easy. And everyone thinks it is easy. You've got to do your homework. You've got to go out there. You've got to watch the players. You've got to look at their stats and stuff and then be able to produce because if the presenter actually is on a Saturday or in the midweek and you don't know the answer or don't know the football player, then you shouldn't be doing it. But everyone thinks it's easy because you probably might watch match of the day on a Saturday and watch highlights for an hour and a half and think you can just come and talk about every player's. But say a youngster's come through and he made his debut and you don't know about him. So that's why I do my homework. I listen to a lot of podcasts. I read a lot and you have to do it because you don't want to be caught slipping because everyone wants to come and do the media now. So you need to have that energy. But I'm a bit different to other people because I've got full of energy. So everyone goes even if Clinton's there, it always have energy. And I have fun with it. This is what I have fun with. It's like now me and you, I've just met you, but I feel like I'm having fun with it. Some people, you could probably come here and be speaking to someone. Someone would give you one word answers. But I'm as honest as they come and I enjoy what I do because it might not be, I might not do it for, I might only do it for the next three or four years, but I make sure I'll enjoy it for the next three or four years. Because that's what I want to do. Listen, I want to do it for the next 10 or 12 years if I can. Because always people coming up. That's what I mean. There's always people coming up. So you've always got to keep on your toes and you've always got to keep improving and keep doing better. And that's what I say to someone. If someone wants to get into the media, you have to work harder. It's not natural. Anyone help you particularly? I'll tell you what, there's some big names that did help me to be fair. I remember working once I was doing a live game and someone texted me after the game and said, "Well done." It was a pleasure working with you. So I said to the producer, there's only one person and another person and I already had his number. So was it him, the main man? And then the producer said, "Yeah, he asked me your number." So I texted him and said, "Thanks very much, but who is this?" And he put number 14. So I was like, "Okay, I know who number 14 is." So it was teary on me. And now we become friends. Alan Sheerat was the same Premier League record. All-time goals got texted me and said, "Lovely working with you. Keep up the good work." And Ian Wright, they're the three. I'd say help has helped me massively. And now where I work on soccer Saturday, me and Paul Mercer have a great relationship and we check up on each other all the time. But you get to meet all these legends of footballers and they become your friends. So it's just brilliant. No, I said to you that I just, I've never been involved in football. Yeah, yeah. I was a big regret, but I've never played at my school. I've seen one football match in my life. Arsenal. And I think it was against Portsmouth. Okay. And Terriore scored a hat trick. Yep. That doesn't surprise anyone that would be listening at Terriore Henry because in that era, Terriore Henry was the best player in the Premier League. Well, I was looking at him and thinking that's David Gower. Yes. Or Andre Agassiz. Agassiz. Yeah, because the levels, they were different. Different. There's that little bit more. Yeah, like David Gower was a fantastic batsman, left handed. Andre Agassiz with the tennis. Terriore Henry in that era of the football Premier League was the best player. You asked any individual who had to play against Terriore Henry. I was at the other end watching him. The things he could do with the football when he's finishing was fantastic. So there's something about those two. I mean, Agassiz and Ulrich, they just seem to know in a tennis quarter. Yes. They seem to know where the ball's going to be. Yeah, wait a little bit ahead. It's that Gower playing the fastball. How is he doing that? Yeah, how is he doing that? And just putting it to the boundary. It's just natural talent. Listen, they've had to work on it. It's timing, but it's also natural talent as well. But you still have to work. You can have the best natural talent. But if you don't work hard at it, you won't be successful. Do you find in your experience that people like that, and we're talking now, I suppose, moving on to the England coach scenario, in my experience, the cricket, often the most natural players are not the best coaches because it's just happened easily. Yeah, they just go out and play. You mentioned Ronaldo, who has brilliant, but he's worked at his game. Yeah, he worked at his game. Whereas there are others, it just happens. But the people I find the best coaches are those who have had to work at their game. Yeah, and they can put it. Yes, they can put it. Is that? Yeah, I agree with you on that. Listen, it doesn't mean because you've had a fantastic football career that you would go on to be a fantastic manager. I think sometimes the people have done the hard graph and have done all their culture badges and gone to certain places and spoke to certain people that can improve their game. So, yeah, it can be like that. It's like where England changed it with the cricket, and they brought in Brendan McCollum, and they worked with Ben Stoffs. Now, Brendan McCollum, when you watch Brendan McCollum play, Brendan McCollum's not blocking shots. Oh, no. He never has done. Yeah, he never has done, and that's what his team show now in England are out there now. They're not just blocking, blocking, and they're entertaining, and that's what we're in. We're in a sport that's full of entertainment, so you want to be entertained. And not all the time, because sometimes you can play reckless shots, and you're thinking, "Why did you do that? Why didn't you just protect? There's only four or five balls to go in the day." So, yeah, but it's a difficult one because with the management. Was it going to win, though? Yeah, you have to win. That's what it's all about winning. It is winning. That's what people forget. It's an entertaining sport, but it's also about winning as well. And even if you don't entertain, it's about winning. You could win ugly. That's what I'm saying. Everyone was moaning about England in the Euros. I can guarantee you no, if they play like they had done, and beating Spain in the final, everyone would have forgot about the early stages of moaning at Galsalke about negative football, because he's brought it home for everyone in the country. So, yeah, it's a difficult. Being a manager, I think, is the hardest thing. But surely, again, also being a football manager. You're dealing with multi-millionaire young men. Of course, they're under pressure, and it's easy again to generalise and say, "Oh, they don't care. They're going to get..." But, of course, they do, because they're professionals, and they've got their careers and everything else. But it must be difficult managing young men like that. You know where it's difficult to manage? You've got a pick on 11, and you've got a squad of about 20, even sometimes more than 20 players. If you look at Chelsea, Chelsea's squad is massive, because they've signed loads of players. How do you keep all of that squad happy? That's happy. Because you know what your best 11 is, and how you're going to play your best 11, and the news is going to play, and you might need two or three off the bench. But if you keep picking that same 11, and they keep winning all the time, and the same subs come on, what about the 405 when you get injuries? How are their heads going to be? But that is why managers are brilliant, and that's why they lean on a lot of their coaches as well. Cultures play a big part, because the coaches are the people that go in between. If the manager has to make the decision of you're not playing the coach, and then go speak to the player, and tell him why he's not playing, and I think coaches play a big part in that. But listen, we're in any sports, we all have egos, we all think we should be playing. Every player thinks they should be playing, and the manager's not right. I clash with loads of my managers. If I could turn back the clock now, I wouldn't say to my manager, you probably made the right decision. But then I thought I was the best player in the world, and I thought I should be playing week in week out. It's not until you get older and you look back on your career and think the manager made the right decision there. I don't always have to agree with him at the time. When you look back, you think he did make it. And was the relationship such that you could tell him? Yeah, I could tell him. I should be playing. Yeah, I used to do it with Steve Bruce. Steve Bruce, my manager, that I had, I had him at Crystal Palace, and then he took me to the Premier League with Birmingham City. He knew how to handle me. He knows I would rant and rave and go off on one, and he says, "Leave him," because he'll come back in two or three minutes, and they will apologise that he's made the mistake. This is on the pitch, mainly in training. If I didn't like a decision, because I was still passionate in training, I wanted to win every training session, I wanted to win all the games in training, so I was passionate. I've always been told, "Train how you play." You can't just go through the week of training like that and expect to turn it on on Saturday. I tried to train as hard as I can, put the effort in during the week, and then on Saturday, you reap your rewards. He just didn't know how to handle me, but I tell him, if he told me I wasn't playing on a Saturday in a Friday, he told me, because if he told me on a Saturday, my head wouldn't be right if I was to come on. I'd be disappointed, and I'd be questioning him for about half an hour, and in the end I'd get it, and he would get there and talk about it, and then the Saturday I'd come on off the bench to score the winner, and run over to him and say, "Don't ever do that again." Actually, I've only known you half an hour, but I can imagine you've been... Yeah, that's me, that's me, that's me. And how about, I mean, years you, you're up front, you're striking all that, and you're up against some pretty tough people, I guess, trying to stop you. What's that like, when you're going, but quite intimidating, is it like me asking out there and facing fast, bowling, and you've got these big guys who are chopping it down? And then you're playing against some world-class defenders, this way, and you're thinking, and you can feel him coming in the back of you, elbow in you, you're going up for headers, and you're looking at the referee, and he's not protecting you, and then you're thinking, "Well, the only way I've got to get out of this is I've got to use my elbows," and back into the center halves and stuff, and be physical, because it is a physical game on football, but yeah, it's good, but you learn a lot. I think when I went and played international football, I was playing in the Premier League, you're playing against the cream of the crop, the best defenders in the world, so you learn a lot, and you become more streetwise, and that's the big thing I could say streetwise is massive, but I learned a lot from playing football, as I said, I was really privileged to play football, because everyone wants to be a professional footballer or professional cricket, and it is hard to make it, so sometimes I sit back now, and I pinch myself and say, "I've lived everyone's dream, I've lived a boy's dream from South London, you know, who's struggling," and then all of a sudden there's come and been a professional football, and now, during the media, so if it ends tomorrow, which it ain't going to end, because I'm so positive, it's been a great journey for me, and that's the best thing I could do. But that puts it all to contact, isn't it? Yeah, it does, it does. Listen, I made my family proud, I made myself proud, and that's the most important thing. Yeah, how's your mom doing now? She's all right, she's living her best life, to be fair, so she's very happy, she's proud of her son, she still tells me off now, even though I'm 45 years of age, even if I go out, she still tells me off and says, "You should be home." I said, "Mom, I'm married with kids," and she's like, "No, but you still should be home, text me when you get home, but that's moms for you." It'll always be like that, yeah. She can watch you play. Yeah, she watch me play. Listen, you would, out of there could be 40, 50,000 in there, if I'm not doing it, that'd be the one woman you could hear screaming, and it'd be her saying, "You're not doing good enough," and then I'd look at her and say, "All right, I'm going to prove you wrong," and then I'd score and I'd go and celebrate and she'd be like, "That's better," and it's because of what I said, why you've produced, and I was like, "Fair enough," so that's the kind of relationship me and my mom have had. Everyone knows it's a special bond and it would never be taken away. It's fair, but he's been lovely meeting you, Clinton. It really has. Brilliant. I've really enjoyed it. I've met some good people since I've been there. You're not doing it. I don't know what he's called us, I don't know what he's called us about. Yeah, which one did he get wrong? He got nearly every cricket question wrong, and probably it was a West Indian cricket question, and he got it wrong. No, he didn't really get the West Indian cricket wrong. I can't be that bad on Carlos, but he's a great guy. Carlos, I always remember that, remember the name when he hit the city. I know it was horrible, but it was horrible for all the folks. Yeah, he has come back. He has come back. He has come back, and since he's had that knee in operation, he looks really well, and England need him because he's bowling. It's fantastic. It's how I'm a bit of a Ben Stokes fan, Kanye. Clinton, top bank, it's love it to have had you. Hi, I'm Graham Klass, host of Technically Speaking and Intel Podcast. Join me for season two as we explore the future of technology evolving today. In each episode, I'll speak with the minds transforming medicine, healthcare, retail, entertainment, personal computing, and more with the help of AI. Join me every other Tuesday and explore the latest technology changing our world today and creating a more accessible tomorrow. Listen to, technically speaking, an Intel podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.