Test Match Special

England v West Indies: England edge ahead on day 3

Jonathan Agnew is alongside Alastair Cook and Fazeer Mohammed to look back on England’s batters building a strong lead over the West Indies on day three at Trent Bridge.

Chris Woakes reflects on a day where there was more for the bowlers because of the conditions, and West Indies’ Josh Da Silva reveals the “fun” he had during the last wicket partnership with Shamar Joseph.

Plus, Simon Mann speaks to former Glamorgan all-rounder Sam Kirnan, who coaches the West Indies’ Kavem Hodge & Alick Athanaze, to learn more about the Dominican duo.

Duration:: 42m
Broadcast on:: 20 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45 up front for three months plus taxes and fees, promoting for new customers for limited time, unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month. So, full turns at mintmobile.com. BBC Sounds. Music. Radio. Podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to Test Match Special podcast from Trent Bridge, where England had their noses in front after another fascinating day. Brook on strike on 13, holder runs in, taking shadows with him. Oh, he's charged and smashed him for four. Down the pitch, met him on the half-volley, and flunched it between Boer and Midoff. Nobody moved. To come, we'll hear from Chris Wokes, who took four wickets in his 50th test, plus the West Indies, Josh De Silva, who's left stranded close to a memorable century. We'll also have analysis for the days to play from Alistair Cook and Physio Muhammad, and we'll hear from the coach who inspired Dominican duo, Cavum Hodge, and Alec Atenaus. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. England on 248 for three. They lead by 207. They started that, and England's 41 runs behind. They lost Crawley for three, and Duckett and Pope had a good partnership. Duckett's 76, Pope 51. They were parted by Azari Joseph, and then Rooten Brook had put on 108 unbeaten for the fourth wicket. Brook being the innings of the day, 71 not out, and Root 37 not out. West Indies lost their last five wickets for 100 runs earlier on today. Thoroughly entertaining part of 71 between Joseph and De Silva for the last wicket. The number 11 scored 33, and Josh De Silva scored 82. Chris Wokes was the most successful English bullet, took four for 84. So, really good day's cricket, Alistair Cook. Fazia, I started with you last night, Fazia. I think we start with you again, shall we? From West Indian perspective, where are you seeing this one? Yeah, I think England have taken the initiative at this point, because all the Westernies missed a trick with the bowling overcast conditions. Maybe not moving about as much as they hoped, but I don't think there was a lot of discipline in the bowling. Certainly, Judean Seals was very disappointing especially, and his only mind there was that change of ball that we saw Zari Joseph bringing about. Some sort of breakthrough, some sort of incisive effort, but overall, I thought the Westernies appeared to be lacking in energy, really. After, you would have thought that, given what went on in the morning, with the excitement of the last wicket partnership, and the way the pull things fall when it looked as if they might be trailing by a few runs, it seemed a bit as if the Westernies were operating, lacking in energy somewhat. Yeah, Alistair, from England's perspective, they could have asked for a lot more really, because they would have obviously wanted to have bold Westernies out more cheaply than they did, but having given that lead away and losing Crawley for just three, so still well behind, actually to end up two and seven ahead, seven wickets left, two days to go. They batted beautifully. Under some pressure, there's always pressure on Tess Cricut, actually third innings, when you can see the lead, when you probably shouldn't have conceded a lead, and it felt like there was, if momentum is such a thing in the game of Tess Cricut, there's quite a lot of the Westernies, and certainly when Crawley was running out backing up, which is obviously incredibly unfortunate, they responded really well, and both the two big partnerships of Ducky and Pope and Rutan Brook made batting look ridiculously easy. Yeah, so let's start with the early stuff, because wickets felt quite quickly, Jason Holder, only four added, he was out for 27, Sinclair, Azari Joseph, Jayden Seals swept away pretty quickly, and there's a 386 for nines, they're still behind at that stage, then this partnership. What did you think of that tactic, and I know it's difficult, it's easy from here, and I know you've done it before, where you've put those men back, you've got an established batsman, and you've got a rabbit at the other end, temptation is to protect those boundaries. Fundamentally, that tactic is the right tactic. I think probably they little bit underestimated the batting ability of Joseph, actually he's not a rabbit, like they almost looked like last week in the Lord's test, so you're out there, and you think we've got a player, a De Silva who's in, that's seven, could be the one who, you feel it up, they can attack, so you put everyone out on bolder the other guy. I think on this occasion, if Ben Stokes could have seen the actual stats that we were looking at, remember he doesn't get that. That's the cover, sorry, don't worry. Pitched up swing bowling, they've got 30 off for four, 37 for four, and I think it would have been very hard to knock England off their length, because it was just doing probably just enough. Probably a sweeper either side, could it be enough maybe one, like an extra one if you wanted to, if you wanted a bit more carbon mid-off or mid-on back, but I think they probably should have stayed there because why wouldn't you, and I think he misread the situation, and then when you know you've misread the situation, you cannot grab it back, I don't know what you're doing, he tried to spin, he tried Joe Roo, Joe Roo went for it, was it 18, and that was literally just to try and get Joseph, start a game with some controls, De Silva couldn't get the other guy on strike, it was a mess, and that can happen, that's why actually the batting was impressive because they didn't allow that to filter into it. Sometimes it would take work, I mean if De Silva had a slog and got caught in the deep and everyone walks off almost immediately, well great that's the difference from say 20 years ago, and again this is not saying here is a better or anything, just that the players are far better hitting bombs now, because that is what a lot of the training is, is you know I know if there's here laughing around, the influence of T20, that is a massive influence and a change that they are, the odds on them clearing the infield is not, they'll always clear the infield, do you know what I mean, so that is why that is a better as well cookie, there's no doubt, a number 11 these days is much better prepared than they used to, but I'm more going for that attacking player, the guy who's in, if you say I just keep on saying keep the fielders up, if you want to play a big shot, you know if it's moving a little bit, he will just hit one in the air, the risk is there because actually he might not, because they are trained, they are range hitting for an hour, of just hitting length balls or six, there's balls every, no that's that, that's never done 20 years ago, so that is the, that is why we see this tactical a lot more, because the fear of a guy, well keep them in up, I'll just keep bashing it, yeah they're kind of quite tedious as you can't, tedious watching, yeah and that's why I was says rather facetiously maybe there should be a rule in the game now, when something like that happens the two captains agree okay, just three ball overs now, because it's pretty much pointless, the first four deliveries, and it really gets frustrating to what cricket like that, but I take Alistair's point, however it wasn't frustrating for West Indies, they put on 70, they played a situation, what was in front of them really well, and just to add to that very quickly, Shamar Joseph is not at number 11, in Australia he showed his ability, got 36 in his first test match innings, so I was actually surprised that Jaden Seales came in ahead of him, because as we saw when given the opportunity he can't play shots, I think what everyone has certainly embedded in their minds the way he got out in the first innings at Lord, where he was trying to play five shots in one and was quoted backward point, but he's a better player than that, and therefore I think that's why Joshua de Silva was really surprised towards the end, when he was thinking of a hundred, and Joseph was trying his best to cut it somewhere into the city centre, that really gave it away, just as England were really frustrated at that point. Yes, and of course in no doubt in the number 11's mind, however good a number 11 news, a certain M Wood who was tearing into the other end, that would have been to Silva's mind too of course, because he knew that that was probably going to end up one way, although in fact in the end it didn't. I think Wood finally got him out where he had six balls at him, and he was quite happy to pull at concerned as he did him for a big six and hit some tiles off the roof which came down, but he changed when he had six balls at it, and De Silva knew that because he wouldn't, when Wood was bowling at the beginning of that partnership, he wouldn't, if he thought about it, he'd only give him one ball, so normally you take on the fifth ball, on the fourth ball you take a single, he wasn't doing it, he was only taking a single on the fifth ball. And that's the benefit of someone again like a Mark Wood, I mean at the end of it you might not get a bag full of wickets, you'd have to wait and see in the second innings, but again you can't discount the impact that someone like he would have at the other end, where guys are basically relaxing because they don't have to face Mark Wood. Mark was quite happy to balance opposition fast bowlers too, he's not too concerned about that. I think if you're a fast bowler and you're batting at the end and you start hanging about, you're going to get some, aren't you, so you might have to hand them out. And actually if you hand them out a nice seven mile an hour, it must be quite a good fun. It was fun watching though, I mean again and big smiles on faces and just enjoying themselves, you know? Absolutely, and this is what Westernies Cricket is about, I mean I know I hear the references to seeing a bit more of the Calypso, but from a Westernies perspective, that's almost seen, and I know it's not meant that way, that scene is almost in a derogatory way, because it's thought of happy-go-lucky, and I know it's not meant that way, but yeah, I mean when you see these players enjoying their cricket, doing well, confidence like yesterday and the celebrations of Cavem Hodge and Athanas and everyone else, it really means something to them too, to really be enjoying their cricket and it happened with that part. And that's why I felt that it was surprising that the Westernies weren't really much more energised coming after lunch and really going at England, hammer and tongs with everything, really pulling all the choke essentially to go at them. I think it's a case of wanting to see a team who have had a hard time and have walked round with a weight on their shoulders, and it's looking for enjoying playing, and you play better when you enjoy it after all. Indeed, and it has been this sort of situation for the Westernies where they lift your spurs with one really good performance and then it's back down again, and that's what frustrates the viewers, frustrates the media back at home, frustrates those who are observing the game, because you can see the ability, you can see the potential, you can see the quality, it's just that consistency which continues to be a challenge. How do you assess being run out backing up cookie? I mean that's just a horrible dismissal, isn't it? Yeah it is, and the only, I was talking to you, I was talking to you, you had the bat in the right hand, you know, as in he was in his left hand. The correct hand, yeah. The correct hand, that's better work. And that apart, so he did nothing wrong, it's just one of those things, he'll have to walk away from this test match with the Norton 3. It wasn't really my week. It was quite lucky actually, the first ball hit him on the helmet off his back, because that could have popped up in there and been caught anyways, he might have bagged a pair. Exactly, so actually you probably might know he wouldn't have taken three runs, but nothing worse than being on a path. We have a different ducked innings today, do you think, I mean, obviously he didn't quite get the balls to hit that he did in the first, but I mean he's still positive. Didn't people have worked him out yet? No, I think he's a very hard opening batsman to bowl up. He's so unusual. We keep talking about him not leaving a ball. And he just, he, so looking to score, he just doesn't miss out on any opportunities. You said it was a different ducked, it was exactly the same ducked in the first innings as they just didn't bowl quite as badly. I liked the change tactic afterwards, after T going 7-2, risky, but it was at least something different, because before T, he was just milking and beauty and that's why he's very good. He hits the four balls, but when he has his men out, he is very happy to just not the singles. He's actually a very, very good player. Yes, he is. And he is difficult because he's a short player as a backfoot player, so as a bowler, you've got to get it up there, but he's got a decent drive as well. He's got a very good cover drive. The only, the reason again is why I think he's very hard to bowl and he probably should ask bowlers this rather than opening batsman is you're kind of conditioned to bowl channel. So that is what your condition to do in test cricket, but his channel is very different. You might as well just keep bowling. Yeah, I have to buy off-stump. You know, four-stump is too wide to bend ducky because he will hurt you, he'll punish you. Yes, occasionally he'll nick it, because every batsman nick it, but if he's in on a pitch like this, he's got to build very, very straight to him. You know, how much you need mid-off, all that kind of stuff, if you're going to bowl channel you. And actually the ball he got him out was a very good ball, surprise your quick hit him on the toe with it. They had been hanging it, it was a surprise one, a good, good bowling, good thinking. But yeah, I think everyone around now has been ducky, it's not like, oh, he won't last, there's no not leaving it. He's worked out his method and he's, he's a very, very good player. Yeah, it was a good ball and it's kind of a typical alzari Joseph really, isn't it? Because he's quite slippy and just down the clicks, he's a very rhythmical bowler and you produce a ball that's quicker than the ones before. Combine that with the yorker and to get through someone who's well set on 76, it was a good effort. And a change of ball as well and a long delay, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was sort of a crazy afternoon where there was one delay after another and with that change of ball he had the immediate success of course getting olive pulp taken at Gully and then the LBW decision. But for someone like alzari Joseph with his experience, I think the Westernies would have been expecting him to be a lot more consistent. Really, but again, he's such an emotional guy, he seems that when the mood is with him, he's really focused and then he gets upset about something, someone stumbles in the field and he's throwing his arms up and he just seems to throw him off very, very easily and you'd really expect a bit better from someone who's played so much international cricket, so much franchise cricket and now he's vice captain of the Westernies team. He's missed here my roach because like that was roach's job was to be the consistent goal of the bowler who holds and end up always asking questions and that allows Joseph to go hunt wickets. You'd have bought beautifully as they probably would in these conditions. He would have bought well at lord with the slow up. So you see the difference actually and Joseph said therefore when you've missed someone who is the holding bowler you're looking at the experience bowler which he is compared to the other two, he'll almost be the consistent bowler and I reckon he's tried too hard to be consistent, kind of looked away from his strength which is where I've got to get wickets and then actually guess what he probably more consistently. I actually think that the injury of chemo roach has affected Joseph in a different one. We'll look ahead to tomorrow a second but first of all a bit of reaction from England, Chris Wokes finished with 4 for 84 and he's with Simon man. Well Chris a hard fought day but do you feel you've taken decisive control of the game now? I think it was obviously as you say that it was a good days cricket, went back and forth a little bit but I think obviously that partnership at the end was a real crucial one for us in terms of getting a grip of the game a little bit you know still certainly not in complete control because as any test match tomorrow morning is going to be real crucial as again moving forward but certainly that partnership in tricking conditions when it got a bit dark and they took a new a ball it was tough conditions so the boys bated really well a great partnership so hopefully they can kick on again in the morning. What you like to bowl on this pitch though is pretty good for batting. Yeah no it's a good good batting surface you know it felt like there was probably you felt that you got a little bit more out of it today with the conditions as I said a bit more overheads yesterday with the sunshine in on bake baking it felt real hard work but today just felt like there was a little bit there for you that you could work with but yeah you have to some of those pictures which you literally have to put 110% into every ball to get something out of it so it's hard work but you know that's test cricket for you. The more you've bolded in this series do you feel you're getting more into rhythm? Yeah I think I've always been a bolder that is better for the gallop so to speak I'm certainly you know Woody's is so different to me like he almost wants to be fresh coming to a test match with almost very little cricket under his belt where I'm the opposite I feel I could do need over and under my belt and again yeah as you said to find that rhythm find that sort of you know right line and length that I like to bowl and yeah certainly felt better in this in this game rather than a you know I did last week at Lord's. I'm better this morning as well nice to make a real contribution in your fifth year test match. Yeah absolutely I mean you always want to contribute to team's success and you know obviously picking up four weeks was great it's always nice to get some rewards for a couple of good spells obviously Woody deserved more than he got yesterday I suppose that's the game sometimes but yeah I think as a unit we've bolded pretty well and you know obviously they had the best conditions obviously with big blue yesterday and a big blue sky on a good surface for them to you know only get a few ahead was probably a good result in the end. When you looked up this morning you think thank goodness for that after the beating son of yesterday. Yeah it was a hot one yesterday it was a tough old slog but as I said this cricket is never never easy and you know you have to you know pitch up regardless of the conditions so I thought we stuck out well and I think we'd have took you know the situation this morning to get them 90 for five those last week it's for 90 it was a really good effort. What about that last weekend partnership do you little look back and think we could have done something different? I think you always look back and think you know could we had done this could we had done that but I think we were pretty you know committed to what we wanted to do you know I don't feel like they were getting away from us too much I know Shimano got a couple of sixes away but other than that I didn't feel like they were getting too far ahead obviously you wanted you wanted to hit the first one straight up in the air but you know as I said on a good batting surface it's hard to get an in batter out and I think it's one of those situations in the game of cricket particularly that no one really knows the exact way to go about it and you have to kind of go with your gut feel I thought we stuck to the task well and obviously eventually got got the wicket and just back to you again what's it like being the leader of the attack inverted commas with no Jimmy and Stuart I mean it makes me feel a little bit older that's for sure but no I'm enjoying obviously it's the first time I've I think I've played a test match with without either of them out there so that's a little bit different a little bit strange but you know it is the way it is it's great to still have Jimmy around to bounce ideas off him and what he thinks best on on this surface but yeah certainly a little bit different and something I hopefully hopefully get used to final thought how many do you think you need on this surface as many as possible would be nice I mean I suppose you never know how many I mean obviously still a lot of cricket to be played in terms of two days left of test cricket so I mean tomorrow as I said tomorrow morning's crucial we need to kick on with this partnership hopefully the boys can can kick on otherwise the West Indies get a couple of quick wickets they'll feel that they're firmly back in the game so try and you know take the game away from them and and hopefully get a big lead and whatever that is with 350 400 450 you know as many as possible be nice great thanks for your time Chris well thanks all the best Chris Wokes with Simon Mann Chris Wokes took three wickets this morning with four for 84 so tomorrow let's look ahead to that briefly but Fazio and Alistair are still here what's what's a lead that you think might make the windies a bit a bit windy what's going what's going to challenge them Fazio I think anything beyond 270 to 75 as well as they batted in the first innings you can't ignore the vulnerability and especially in the latter stages of a test match is the quality of the England bowling and yes they'll back themselves whereas 350 400 they would remind everyone they got 418 to beat Australia in Antigua it's still a world record and so on so all of that history will be on their side but I think anything beyond 270 is really going to challenge them and that's why they'll probably be looking tomorrow to really come with all all cylinders firing to try and get get these couple of wickets these parelli set set very well overnight and if they they get stuck in and the rate at which they score especially harry brook and the way he plays the game they could play the westernies out of there big first hour isn't it and I still want to ring and attack that's going to be do you think they'll score quickly I mean we'll have time any sort of time stuff in their mind I think they'll be wary of the conditions they definitely did more this morning that first um an hour I think Ben Stokes and Brendan McCollum how they've they play the cricket they think right how many runs can we get by this time I think they want to be bowling just before tea because I don't on this wiki I don't think they want to um they can't even too short at time you know what I mean I think they need they need to surprise them out doesn't feel like a wiki you can go bang bang bang very quickly it might happen but I don't think it will and remember they never say that they're they're not batting for they're not playing for a draw they don't want draws and test cricket even though they're one they're left in the series so I'm not saying they're dangling a carrot but they're gonna say right we want to be bowling 40 minutes of tea let's get as many as we can there and if that that's 380 450 in brook and root get in they could easily do that now we've got some reactions the question is Josh da Silva we're josting up and down day how do you see it after three days uh evenly poised no it's been good good battle so far with baton board um we've seen how the pitch is and we're gonna look to see how we can get somewhere kids tomorrow and see how much we have to chase did you get as many as you wanted this morning overall yeah when you came out this morning your overnight position we didn't have a target in mind I certainly didn't I just wanted as bad as long as I could um we I think we surprised a lot of people so first it was just about getting out there trying to get to the to their score and then building a lead which we did um hopefully we had gotten a hope we had gotten a bit more when I was in the middle but wasn't meant to be anything thought it was was pretty good but you had that last week it stand a really extended thing that you must have it was that fun to to enjoy or to to play in oh yeah it's a bit boring but for the fans but for me I've been in that situation a number of times I got my first test 100 in that situation so for me it's pretty it's a familiar place so I enjoyed and I just tried my best to play the situation at hand did you think there was another test 100 on offer there certainly was only cards and was hoping it was gonna come today but unfortunately it didn't and there'll be more opportunities hopefully but shimma gave you some support that's for sure um yeah Jayden did it in Grenada and now it's sramat did it here he played an exceptional and he hit the big six so sometimes broken up on your roof there which was fabulous to see so yeah it was a good all-in-all fun fun time is he offered to pay for the tiler on monday morning to come and make sure and let him know that you said that okay well played thanks for time thank you cheers the tms podcast from bbc radio five live hey i'm ryan riddles recently i asked mint mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation they said yes and then when i asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous to your contracts they said what the f*ck are you talking about you insane hollywood s*ck so to recap we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from 30 dollars a month to just 15 dollars a month give it a try at mint mobile dot com slash switch 45 dollars up for three months plus taxes and fees promoting for new customers for limited time unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month slows full turns at mint mobile dot com hey everyone this is molly and matt and we're the hosts of grown-up stuff how to adult a podcast from ruby studio and iHeart podcasts it's a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting like how to start planning for retirement creating a healthy skincare routine understanding when and how much to tip someone and so much more let's learn about all of it and then some listen to grown-up stuff how to adult on america's number one podcast network iHeart open your free iHeart app and search grown-up stuff two of the west indies brightest sparks during this series being calvin hodge and allie cathonars to learn more about them simon man spoke to the former glumorgan or rounder sam kernan who's coached both of them on the way to playing test cricket for the west indies so you've been coaching them in the build-up to the series hodge yesterday became the second dominee can just score a test century following uh... in shillingford's hundred against pakistan in 1977 and also at the nays played so well as well and probably deserved a hundred as well he could see his frustration when he was dismissed and you know there's a tremendous reaction back in in dominica as well what what what what was tell us about the reaction in in dominica you sent everyone would have been watching yes um actually the the radio station the local radio station they the message me um just just before hodge made it century and i done a live with the crowd growing in the background oh really yes you were on live as he was storing his hundred that's correct yes oh fantastic and so what what what did he sense was the reaction there i thought it was a sense of elation hodge is someone that really works hard at his game and um it was just a pleasure for me to come and actually see him you know do it on the big stage so did a bit of live commentary or we just sort of relaying what was happening yes i did yeah like a bit of live commentary to the local radio station oh fantastic okay so what was what's been your role um coaching those two crickers because we should say that you played for glumorgan in 1991 and 1992 that's correct yes so you are a former professional cricketer it's all in Preston but you spent the last few years in dominica yeah i spent the last 11 years in dominica and we opened a new academy that's in the north and Benjamin park in Portsmouth in dominica and um Alec has been our first young student who has made it to the big big stage so when did you first come across him i came across him in 2014 the academy opened at 2014 he was just a young 14 year old and what we did we got 17 players from across dominica and we took him to the academy the academy is asleep over you go on a friday we have Friday night at Friday night activities Saturday training Sunday training and that went on in the first year for 29 weeks so you're so as a young player you're away from home for 29 weeks so you go home in the evening and come back on it's on weekends so they'll come on a friday do friday Saturday Sunday and then they go back home to school so what did you see in him as a 14 year old he was very troublesome yes very troublesome youngster at 14 um always getting into trouble in what way what would he do just just little things that boys think that he would do you'd look for him you couldn't find him you know if you say something to him he'll have an answer so he always had something you know in him like he was well driven to succeed at cricket did you sense that he what was his ability like at 14 i mean it's quite hard isn't it sometimes with youngsters they've got some raw talent but you just don't quite know what they're going to be able to turn into in six ten years time what did you what did you see in him what what was it what was attributes as a cricketer he seemed to have a little bit more time than all the other battles in the academy you know even the quickest ballers he'd have time to to play shots the only thing i didn't really like about him he was always trying to hit sixes and he was very very short very skinny boy so what do you say you've got you've got to hit them along the ground on the on the ground no no come on let's start the modern way yeah but you know i'm a traditionalist when it comes to the cricket and i believe if you keep hitting the balls on the ground there's no way you can be out caught so that's my philosophy really and how did he respond to that did he say yes you're right coach or no i'm not not at first he's still trying to go and try to pay the big shots then he gets caught at middle arm long off or long on he'd come and i'd say to him there you go so he learned from that and what about cavern hodge what's your involvement being with him i met cavern long last year for the very first time you know so caverns hard worker and the information that afternoon was given to the players at the win was level you know they wanted to do some work with me i don't know what it what it was but i'm very strict and i'll push you to your maximum and then um last year i started to work with carbon hodge what did you do with him what did you see in him and what what change if you like as a coach could you try to bring about in him it was all about the mentality you know um i always believe that the mentality you know the mental side of the game is the most important but first you have to have good technical skills in order to stay in the wicked for a long period of time and then you can elaborate on your story of playing the game and carbon is really driven when it comes to that just a few minor issues that we had like technical issues but it wasn't very difficult to work with him and it was like a sponge it was spun to you know little ideas and suggestions so you've not been working with him for too long um are you surprised that you know where he's come from you know where he's arrived today well not really because carbon works so hard at this game um it was just a matter of time before you really succeeded just going back to the academy work so what what is this i i mean it's a fantastic story isn't a partnership between two placement it's sort of non-traditionally you know you think of it non-traditional West Indian cricket island you know you think you know you think of western is the big powerhouse islands and countries you know going on and Trinidad and Barbados and Jamaica um what what it's the enthusiasm for cricket then what's the what's the talent pool like the islands small isn't it so like 74 000 people yes we don't have a lot of population as such but the nominee can you can tell that they love the cricket whenever there's a test match or t20 you know the ground is really full so they love the cricket they really really love the cricket small pool um the academy we have five coaches and and four are like level three coaches so we spend a lot of time doing one-on-one coaching and i think coaches had an academy that's going for ten years to get someone to actually play for western is is a great achievement by by all important yeah i mean it's extraordinary actually in a way isn't it have two players who actually the center of the game yesterday with that partnership with 175 let's correct um carbon module into australia at the darron layman um academy droop was at the same academy so carbon has been around for quite a while and you know carbon and alica very close friends they live together like in when they in granada so they built that relationship and you saw yesterday it was a but a lot of friendship that took part in that in that um partnership do you think it helps to have someone that familiar at the other end when you're you're trying to repair some damage yes i believe i believe so you know knowing knowing your plan is very important it's like a marriage as well isn't it you know you have to get to know each other likes and dislikes you know response i don't even think they call in the wicked i think it's quite eye contact and they're off yeah that's a fascinating aspect of batting together isn't it that sense that you know there's a run that you almost don't have to call yeah that synchronicity what about the what about you watching yesterday then are you a nervous watcher when there is players that you've coached yes very nervous i think i'm more nervous than the players that actually because i'm off the field they're the ones on the field but i believe if you prepare them properly mentally technically tactically and mentally they're the lowest of mine and there's always going to be chances you know in the game you know the catch yesterday yeah you know you need a bit of luck as well when you're playing the game but i was quite comfortable after they got to 20 each i saw hundred from one of them i saw that i bet your heart was just beating a bit harder though when you get into his 90s think of course the nervous 90s former quickie day either for the coach as well as the player of course of course yeah what about for afternoon is getting out in the 80s yesterday well what i would say to him yesterday he got the highest score in his test career before that he was only 47 and what i say to him if when you woke up yesterday morning i'll give you 82 runs would you take it and the response was yes so a hundred just around the corner i believe yeah and i believe when he makes a hundred it's going to be a big one what about other talent in Dominica we have quite a few yeah we have quite a few um the under 19 westing is on the 19 skipper step and pass go he's from Dominica they have uh he played a couple of first class games as well for win was this year he's a bright prospect we have two young ladies went to the World Cup in South Africa, Eunice Fontaine, Abinee Saint-John, once a wiki keeper, once a leg spinner they are actually now on the West Indies 18 if that makes sense so we're doing quite well we've had a few other guys we have one guy who's now in anguilla he's just went to the Lee Woods training camp and i have another one crew just because John Lewis he was in England for three years playing perfectly on cricket how how do you find them at that age how does the word get to you that there are these players out you know you know talking about what picking them up 14 or younger than that 12 12 yes so i work at a park at Benjamin Park um sort of the curator how um head grounds man so all the cricket has played there i absolutely get a chance to see and i'm also in collaboration with our sport division they are the ones that run the primary school cricket on the 15 and under 20 cricket so i have friends in that and they bring ideas that name that person look at that person so it's a collaboration really within within that whole group so you have a real sort of sense of the the whole of the young talent on the island and that's correct and we have a young one coming up a young boy called Ursino Fontaine he's going to be good okay well well we'll make a note of that and then sort of think about invite out five how old is he he's 15 now 15 right okay he's actually playing for the windward honors on the 19 team currently being seven been sent now it's not just uh dominicans you've coached as well you've also had a hand in dan Lawrence's development that's correct tell us about that dan was seven years old he his father worked at chingford he was a groundsman and dan was always around here playing cricket i remember the first time we had nets because i was in charge of the cult he came in at seven and he cried for the next week he was back he cried he cried because i don't know right i know i uh it's about overwhelming first yes yes and what every week he was there the first one every week and the last one out um so i saw that in in dan at 12th he was that he started to play first in cricket and i said to people at the club he'll play for him well and of course he has done he can't quite get in the side at the moment he's in the squab he can't get in the the side that surprised you it does you know i'm i'm quite favorably favorable to the people i work with dan's very talented and he just have to wait his time you know that's the whole life is you have to wait your time he had a few other few test matches in the Caribbean i thought that he sacrificed himself for the team and eventually the team really turned the back on him for for that he should have been more selfish sometimes you have to be more selfish what he's a team person so that is done out one thing that interests me you said earlier you said i'm quite tough as a coach what so what's your philosophy as a coach i'm always going to be raising the bar i think if you're in your comfort zone it's a no learning zone so i'm always pushing my players i keep raising the bar every time raise the bar so what does comfort zone look like and what does that sort of the higher bar look like in terms of yeah actual practicalities comfort zone is i'll come you know i'll do if i if i give you say you have to do two laps around the field and you're you're comfortable just doing two on your own i would say no try and do three or four you have to keep improving and doing a little bit more to become the one percenters that's very important i learned that one in the military i was in the army for ten and a half years i was a physical training instructor and the mind is very powerful what about the actual technical side of the game what what are you looking to do on that side of things i am driven when it comes to the technical technical side of the game i believe that we have to give you answers the proper skills and if you grow with the proper skills eventually become a good player so the fundamentals when we use are important and which which are what in terms of fundamentals strong defense hitting ball along the ground you set up if you're gonna be if you're a batsman you're set up with it's the most important part of batting your head shoulders where your feet are am i looking at the ball with my right eye you know basic stuff like that it's important because one thing that seems to happen in coaching a lot these days is is perhaps is more once you become a professional is players are encouraged to work things out for themselves but your view is with youngsters you need you actually need to teach them and tell them yes i believe you know you have to give them the skills that they can run with you know so at the academy after your first year you should be good at your basics you know with a batting balling or fielding and then i would keep an eye on you all the time and intervene from time to time just to make sure and remind you of the things that you need to be doing so did you have a chat with both of them yesterday yes i did i was very elated i went over to the changing rooms over there and i spoke with them and i saw you know beaming smiles it was wonderful to actually witness that and then this morning i had a word with with hodge you know it was good excellent yeah i'm not sure what sort of like he had last night because he said oh no i'm so tired it didn't sleep much you know it's it's still buzzing from yeah it was replaying the whole innings in in his head which is important that's very important as well to to make a hundred you have to know the journey how to make a hundred the first one is the most important after that you know how to go about making centuries and borders as well taking five rockets there's a journey to the pathway of doing that thanks to sam and to simon for that chat and that's it for this episode of the t s podcast make sure you're subscribed on bbc san so you don't miss a thing from this test series between england and the western news and while you there check out our view from the boundary dr adam brotherhood where tells me which tms regular i am distinctly related to also look out for the latest episode of tailenders where jimiana's and reflects on his final test match for england with greg james phillips white and matching test match specials on air at 10 o'clock on sunday on five sports extra and bbc sounds for the fourth day of the test here 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