Test Match Special
View from the Boundary - Dr Adam Rutherford
Jonathan Agnew talks to Dr Adam Rutherford. The scientist, educator and author regularly appearing on television and radio, and along with Dr Hannah Fry hosts the hugely successful BBC Sounds podcast “The Curious Cases of Rutherford & Fry”.
From the TMS commentary box at Trent Bridge they discuss Adam's style when playing cricket, the lack of scientific testing to fully understand how and why a cricket ball swings, and which TMS regular is Aggers loosely related to?
- Duration:
- 37m
- Broadcast on:
- 20 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
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Listen to the girlfriends, our lost sister, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search the girlfriends, our lost sister, and start listening. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. The first time this summer, finally, whatever date we are now in July, we can welcome a view from the boundary guest to the commentary box. Now the scientist, educator, author, regularly appearing on television and radio. Along with Dr Hannah Fry hosts a hugely successful BBC Sounds podcast, the curious cases of Rutherford and Fry from Essex. She grew up on Ipswich, dreaming of becoming a cricketer. And in fact, maybe that dream lives on because he would have played tomorrow if it weren't for a broken hand that we've been looking at. So very warm welcome to Dr Adam Rutherford. Look at you with your strapping, Adam. It's lovely to see you. Welcome. Hello Aggies. Look at that. I know two middle fingers on my left hand, it was from a game I was playing on Wednesday for the authors, which is my team, and I just took one on the end of the finger. I just dubbed it on the end. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, I mean, as a broadcaster and as a cricket lover, how do you feel now? I've been very excited to be honest. I mean, you just said as we were coming in that, you know, it's just brought, you do a lot of radio. I do radio every week for Radio 4. And I was, as I was walking and I was thinking, yeah, it's just another radio studio. And then I thought, oh, I'm in the heart set. You've been in my ear for? Don't say it. Most of my life. I had Stuart Broad talking about listening in his car with his grandfather the other day, which wasn't very nice. Well, that's what we used to do. So, I mean, it was before, I was listening before while you were still playing, but it was watching with my dad and I was a young boy. I mean, people say this of my age. I don't know whether it's true or not, but we used to watch on BBC 2 that have the radio on with it, so the sound off on the TV. And that is my earliest memories of cricket aged, you know, probably seven. Yeah, I do honestly think that most people who get into cricket, their first contact was probably test match special. Sat in the car with their parents or whoever it may be, keen parents, trapped in the car, they're listening to it on the radio. And you start to hear the voices and the rhythm of the game, and it all sounds rather good financially, and lots of nice noise. And I think for most people, I reckon radio is probably the first contact. Yeah, and I think that's definitely true for my family as well. My wife, who is not particularly interested in cricket, says to me quite often that the whole soundtrack of the summer is having TMS on just continuously, and she really loves that. And so just having the crack on the noise and the background, and so when I said to her yesterday, you know, I'm going on TMS. Oh, that's nice, and who would you be talking to? And I said, I think it's Haggis, and she said, "Oh, I like his voice." Well, there you go. It kind of lifts music in the background, isn't it? I do think you listen assiduously to every word that it's said, or it's just kind of there in the background. I think you get the sort of lilting tone. I think you can, if you've listened all your life, I think you can hear when something is beginning to happen. Yes. And then there's the, you know, there's the old line about how war is long periods of nothing happening punctuated by moments of extreme terror. And I test much cricket, and maybe TMS is a bit like that. It can just drift a little bit, and it suddenly buns something, but that's the beauty of test cricket, isn't it? Yes. You know, I mean, you know, in the shorter form you do get, of course you get good excitement in your dramatic moments. But I think sometimes because of test cricket, there's a bit longer between those dramatic moments, but actually they're more dramatic because of that. As I've got older, so I'm a purist in that, for a long time I've maintained that not only is cricket humankind's greatest achievement, and as an evolutionary biologist I feel like I'm somewhat qualified to state that with a little bit of authority, maybe. Yes. But I would add to that, that the test match is the pinnacle of the form itself. But in the last few years, especially having children and taking my son to the oval where we're members. And being initially quite snobby about the 20 over format a few years ago when it came in, I've completely changed my mind. That's good. How old is your son? He's 16 now. Right, but when he started he was obviously younger and got them into it. Yeah, yeah, and I made the mistake of taking him to, when he was a bit too young, of taking him to Lords on a Saturday afternoon where, I don't know, we were carving out a drawer. Right. No wickets fell and it was very hot and even I was, you know, struggling to maintain interest in the game. And I think it sort of put him off for a while, so taking him to a T20 at the oval and the excitement of that, he's much more interested in football. We're Ipswich Town fans and season ticket holders and have just had the greatest season of his life, not quite mine. But seeing the format and seeing the excitement that the game can bring. And, you know, we just watched an hour of basketball. Isn't that great to have watched that? It was astonishing. Yeah, I mean, proper, we've been talking in here about off the first test and how the West Indies didn't really play like the West Indies. You know, that lovely Caribbean flair that there is and we've just seen that today. Smiles on faces, playing the shots, going for it, you know, going back to the great teams of West Indies in the 80s and early 90s. They were aggressive, they were hard, they were brutal. But there was that sense of the smile on the face when they played, which is just so, so attractive to West Indies cricket. So I think that I, as a teenager, so I was born in '75. And so my earliest memories of cricket are England in that golden era that you were part of. And then by the time I was a teenager, I had begun to be more teenage and lose interest in all the things that you like as a young person. Oh, did you? We're not off the rails a bit. Well, not particularly, but, you know, just pretty standard teenage stuff. But then it was the West Indies team of the early 90s. And particularly the 91 West Indies series, I'm going to get the numbers wrong and you'll correct me, all sorts will correct me. But Ambrose is, what did he get, 11, 4, 80 something? But, you know, that's my first season doing this, actually. So the highlights of that series for me was Graham Gooch's incredible innings at headingly in the first test match, which he would count as being, I think, one of his finest innings. And the leg over. Oh, yeah, was that that series? Was that that series? Yeah, it was. So those are the two standouts for me. For me, it was an umbrella. But it was watching, I'm a little bit too young for the VIV era and Greenwich and the BlackWash game. Yes, I played it. That was my debut. Ah, tough one. Tricky game, that one. Yeah, a little bit. Is it a bit hostile? A little bit. But I did what I feel really quite angry about is that incredibly passionate West Indian support that was there. The clanking of the cans and the blowing of the whistles and the genuine love of cricket from that community. But it's gone, you know, and Ebony, who you know, is working so hard at trying to reignite that passion for cricket. That is so natural within West Indian people. But we've somehow successfully sort of snuffed it out, it seems, and pushed that community very much. The fringe of cricket. And we've lost so much. So in the first test in this series, I find that a bit heartbreaking to see the West Indies perform so poorly. Because I want them to be a force in world cricket in the way that they were in the 90s in that era where I fell in love with the game again as a teenager. And so this is great. So to come here at 11 o'clock and think, yeah, they've avoided the follow on. Yeah. But it's, you know, England are going to walk away. That's the very, but the trouble is that's why the mindset that West Indian cricket follows the God into, isn't it? Oh, well, we'll go. Look, we've done all right, but we'll lose. And then the silver comes out and starts playing six of that. I mean, that bizarre six where he stepped away and his legs were wide apart and sort of left it. Oh, that was magnificent. So how's your cricket then? You can be brutally honest. Well, I played on, so I played for the authors. Right. And alongside people like who? Well, so Peter Frank, a pan historian. We've got a couple of historians at Tom Holland that people will know Jonathan Wilson, a football writer. So you have to be a writer. Yes. You have to have written a book. Sebastian Forks. I think Basher is our president. Oh, okay. I played, he slipped to my keeping wicket for, I think, his final game, which was in Corfu a couple of years ago. So most years we go on a mini tour to Corfu, which is a, which is a, which is a, most people don't realize it. No, why'd you go there? Well, it's a really cricketing island to do with the English presence in there. So it's one of the great cards that had a long standing English presence. And last year, I think, was the hundred and I'm going to get the year wrong. Maybe it was a significant anniversary. Right. Or Corfu cricket. Do you know Corfu? Never been. So the main square in the town, the Espinada, is this beautiful sort of Venetian palisade, shops and cafes. Like so many Mediterranean towns. And it's got in front of a green square. And what almost no one realizes is that it's a cricket pitch. Right. And it's a pretty shoddy cricket pitch, to be honest. And it's a concrete track by the motto. All right, okay. But it is beautiful. And we play there. And the Greek national team plays on Corfu. And so we play a couple of sort of demo games and play against local sites. Who all tend to be the sons of Indian expats who are in there. You know, late teams are early twenties. So we get wallops. Probably quite good, yes. Yeah. It's got a car park around the edge as well. And we play with a wiffle ball. Right. But you asked me how my cricket is. Yes. I think one of the high points in my career has been I got three consecutive sixes and broke a car window. Right. Well, that's impressive. It's not really. Very, very short. Was it there? Very short. Yeah. But that's still, that's still, that's still three sixes. It was the window breaking that I was most proud of. And then I had a sort of slight wobble because I thought that, well, no one claimed it. Right. What the car? Yeah. I took a selfie of me and the broken window and I had a sort of internal wrangle. Do I post this to Twitter and risk someone saying you need to pay for my car window? It's very honest. So I looked up how much it cost to replace a car window in core food and decided that it was worth it. You did. Yes. Did the owner come forward? Not so far. But now I'm talking about that TMS. Maybe they will. That's impressive, so you are a bounce man, are you? We could give batsman. Right. So I normally come in at six or seven to, I've got a decent eye but no technique. I don't really know what the offside is for. Right. Okay. So but it was a leg side swiping. That's a generous way of. Yeah. So when you're growing up, when you're watching on BBC2 and listening on the radio, who are you watching? Who are you trying to, I'm trying to, I'm working out your ages again here. Yeah. I mean, so you're not Jack Russell time. I mean, you're with Jack Russell. It was. In fact, Jack Russell was, this is a terrible thing to say, but I've got slight animosity towards Alex Stewart. Oh, but you're a, you go to the oval. It's not real, but it was the lovely chap. I'm sure he is, but it was that he was the first, Jack Russell was the last specialist. You know, all you do is keep with it. Yeah. Before Ben folks, yeah. Right. And I would have folks, he would be my first person on the, on the sheet for the last several years, but what I do. And so when, when that kick, when you started having also happened to contribute to other areas of the game. Yes. Which sort of began with Stewart's. Yes, it did. Well, well, I'll, I'll go not Taylor. Okay. That's going back to my, my time. I would say that was the first time that I was aware of that. What you're talking about, that's genuine, you know, all-out with your keeper versus somebody who could do a bit of both. So, so Bob Taylor was always considered to be the best with your keeper, but not nearly as good a batsman and not. He was a very fine improvising, beautiful with your keeper too, by the way. Yeah. He wasn't, you know. So I'd say they were first, but then came the Stewart Russell. You get a bit of animosity around, don't you? And people feel very strongly about it as they do with, with Ben Folkton. This strange situation now with Ben Folkton, Jamie Smith. Yeah, yeah. And he's got a funny stance, hasn't he? He's tried. It's a bit sideways. Yeah. He's seen him, yeah, but he doesn't. You don't let, he's let his first buys through this morning. I saw it. That was all. And he's actually kept very tidally. Yeah. I saw it. It's, it's, I mean, the funny thing about Stewart as well is that I had some coaching in my, in my 20s because I decided I needed to be a better, a better bat. And because I'm very leg-sided, I'm very bottom-handed. I'm talking as if I'm a semi-pro. I'm not very good. I'm an enthusiast. I think I probably established that, to be honest. Thank you. But it's a coach, a coach suggested that I took a leg guard. Right. And to did that little sort of Alex Stewart shuffle in? Oh, the little, yes. Take a couple of steps in, so I'm on my front foot. Yeah, the trigger movement, they call it. I never had one of those either. Well, I don't know why that made much difference. So, so you were involved in that debate, though, because as a Wikikeeper, I guess, I guess it is frustrating. You know, if, if you do see someone who you know because you do it yourself, is really very special. And Jack was a very special Wikikeeper. And not a bad little bat on either, by the way. He was very gutsy, got stuck in, but it would be frustrating, wouldn't it? I mean, Alec, let's face it, did a wonderful job. Yeah. And I always felt sorry for Alec because his dad was the coach. Yeah. And so people said, "Well, he's only keeping wicked because Mickey's the coach." He was pretty good. Of course he was. And that was what I thought, rather unkind on Alec, until he proved otherwise, of course. Well, I think the other contribution that a keeper makes is, if he's just a keeper, if they're just a keeper, is this, is the chatter. Definitely. Yes. And I'm quite good at that. I see that's infuriating. Yeah, I know. I do like that. Do you say interesting things, or is there sort of a name, nonsense? Well, you try to, you know, try to say interesting things that are slightly niggly. Right, okay. You know, when you're having a... Well, you know, it's a fine line between bounce and sledging, I don't know. Yeah. But it's just getting into the bats' heads. The grudge match between the, the annual grudge match between the authors, which is us, and is with the actors. Right. So, and that's always fun because... Where do you play that? So we did that this year at Arundel, which is... Oh, lovely. What did you play? Yeah, and it's skippered by Damien Lewis. Right, yes. Lots of, lots of actors that people will recognise, like Ben Wilbon play, so he's the captain from ghosts. And you know, they're a, they're a decent bunch. It's an autograph hunter's delight, I imagine. Does he get promoted, though? I mean, do you get crowds? Well, at Arundel, they do, so locals come and you give a, they get score sheets and so they fill out themselves. But it's also, you've, you've pointed out what some of the sledging can be from the authors, which is... Have I seen you in anything? Remind me, which advert was there that you... Right, not to do that. Two, two months. Or one, one time. I mean, I think this is very funny. I'm not sure anyone else on the, on the field did. But when I had skied one, two, I don't know, they'd wake it off somewhere. And I felt the need to shout Macbeth as it was coming towards him as a sort of curse. You know, the actors' curse. Yes, of course. He did drop it. I consider it to be successful. That's not very gentlemanly, not very quickly. No, but it's imaginative. And I don't, but it's not, you wouldn't call that sledging, would you? That's, that's the psychological... Cheating, I think, as well. Oh. No, I'm fully in favour of all that. Because it is humour and attached. And that's okay, isn't it? But it's, it's, it's where it goes beyond that. And that, of course, there are cases where it does get personal and rude and racist and unpleasant. Yes. And that's for the umpar, you know, the umpar that... Well, it's not for, to be said in the first place, to be honest. But, you know, as long as it remains at being that little psych, getting into the, the head of the batsman and just psychologically nibbling away at them. Yes. Yeah, it's getting, getting, getting under the skin. Yeah. I think that's a legit part of the game. Oh, yeah. You can't stop that happening. Can you not really, a little matter of... Well, then you're out there for a long time. And when you're the keeper as well, it's a weird thing that you're, you can be slightly isolated from the rest of the game because you actually spend, the person you spend the most time with is the opposition. Yes, of course. You know, at the stage when you've got no slips. Yes, you're just standing there with them. Yeah, you spend a lot of time, you know, standing next to the person that is your, your nemesis. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hey, I hear you think podcasts are all about true crime, huh? Well, wise guy, the iHeart Radio app's got all kinds of podcasts. We got stuff you should know and stuff they don't want you to know. We got Bobby Bones, Big Boy and Lou Lader. We got SpongeBob, binge pants and exotic erotic story time. We got doe boys, two dudes in the kitchen, green eggs and Dan. Hey, we got Elf Quest. We got podcasts for everything on the iHeart Radio app for free. If you don't download that, well, that's not just a true crime, my friend. That's criminal. I'll talk about your day job, and I'm terrified because I don't know nothing about science. And there's, I've obviously been reading all sorts of things about it. There's some very long words in there about what you do. I know nothing about cricket, so I think we run an even keel here. We don't really have great long scientific phrases and words and things. So I'll probably put a foot in this. But what I have been saying, and you will be familiar, I know, with this whole question of why the ball swings. I suspect it would be one of the types of questions that you might answer on your podcast. Those sort of questions come in many and varied. I've been going through all sorts of wonderful, weird topics that get sent into you. The problem is to explain them, but do it in a very accessible and understandable way, which again was quite a terrifying thing. But I want to know definitively about the swinging ball, because we never have that answered sufficiently. And cricketers will all say to man, woman and child, when it's like this, overcast, warm, human, there's a gentle breeze blowing, that ball is going to swing around out there. The fact that in this country, the ball's raw handmade, and therefore, you know, it's slightly, slightly different like handmade shoes rather than machine-made shoes, or whatever it may be, that ball is going to swing. But you say on the radio, and then I get people, scientists, but lots of letters after their name are probably a professor before it. This is not a related, mutiological thing at all. Scientifically, blah, blah, blah, I think, oh, no. Here's the moment. Here is the moment where scientist stroke cricketer can say, with no research done, I'm afraid, apart from your own playing experience, why? Why does the ball swing more? Or is it just that we're kind of willing it to? You say, I'm going to disappoint you in my answer, and it's partly because the way this question is phrased reflects a misunderstanding of what science does and what it is. This is where I'm going to get caught. Which is that it doesn't provide divinitive answers. I know that people often turn to science and say, tell me what the answer to this is. And the most important phrase, the most important three words you can ever say in science is, I don't know. I would expect you to say that. I'll be very, very disappointed if you've said that. Well, I don't know. And when I say, I don't know the answer to this, it is because we don't know. And what that means is that the research hasn't been done. So, yeah, I'm just as guilty of this as every person in this ground and every cricketer, cricket fan listening, that as we were coming in with my friend Chuck today, we were looking at weather and saying, this isn't going to clear. This is going to be good for the bowlers. You know, as everyone says. That's the cricketer in you. And then at no point did we follow up. He's a doctor. So, you know, also, you know, scientifically orientated. At no point did we go, but why do we say that? Is that true? Where is the research that backs that up? And I'm sure, you know, plenty of people, scientists will be listening thinking, well, it is, there's got to be some. But the thing is that, so I'm writing a book about sports and science at the moment. Right. And it's got lots of different aspects of the relationship between sports and science. That's of human science. That's of biology and fitness. Yeah, so there's lots to do with diet and basic physiology and genetics, which is my area, but also race, which is also an area I specialize in. I'm going to tackle gender. I'm going to tackle head injuries. So, all sorts of aspects of the relationship between what we can know from a scientific point of view and how it translates into this thing that we love and this thing that we do. Let's not forget that cricket is the second most popular pastime for humans on earth. And the first is football. Good. Right, so these are really significant things. But in doing the research for this book and looking at science and sports science, there's a huge body of literature behind so many things. And what I'm finding is that quite a lot of it is not very good research. And so there's this sort of assumption, I think, outside of science, that if you're a scientist or if you do science and if you publish in the scientific literature, then it's just true, right? It's just once you've done the research and you push it out into the world. Yeah, it must be true. It's just true. That is not the case, right? Publishing scientific research is an indication that something is worthy of further discussion and may yet turn out to be not true or nonsense. So it's to be developed, basically? Yeah. And what I'm finding is that quite a lot of sports science is, I look at it and think, well, that's not quite right on that, or the conclusions aren't quite right on that, or I wonder whether this is an experiment that was done and didn't translate, but they could publish it anyway. And I think it's partly to do with the incentive structures being different, because in science, at least normally, not actually, you're trying to find out what is correct, what is actually true. But I think what happens in sports science often is you're trying to find out what will give you the marginal advantage to win. So there's no incentive to prove something is wrong once it's been shown to work. Right, OK. So anyway, the answer to the question is... Other questions, what experiments do you want then, because they must have been conducted? I mean, people have been doing tunnels and all sorts of stuff. Sure, sure. There's been lots of scientific analysis of many of the aspects of cricket, but I don't think any of them have come up with a definitive answer. I could define and design an experiment now to answer this question definitively. But I'd need half a billion pounds, and I'd need five years to do it, and I'd need a team of 30 people, minimum, and at the end of it, the most likely answer would be... I don't know. We're not sure. A bit like old-fashioned test matches. Yeah. You know, five days at the end, and it's probably a draw. Yeah, that's, well, that's OK, so we don't know then. After all. Not really. No, not really. That is frustrating. In science, there's so many things that you think are true that we actually don't really know. Things like, you know, look at you, you've got blue eyes. Yes. When you're 16 and you do GCSE biology, and we learn the inheritance patterns of blue eyes and brown eyes, and we learn that the genes are that you need to have... I think I failed that. OK. So if you're doing your GCSEs, listen to this bit. Yeah. The blue eyes are recessive and brown eyes are dominant, and you need to have one copy of a brown eye, gene to have brown eyes, but you need to have two copies of the blue eye, gene to have blue eyes, right? If you write that in your GCSE exam, then you'll pass that question. It's not true, and we don't really know how eye colour works in... Right. ...in eyes, in genetics and in people. And so we're locked into this system in science and teaching science, which is that these things are true because they've been shown to be true, and therefore this is what you need to know. And the truth of the matter is that we actually don't know, and loads of stuff that you just assume is true. And what you're asking me is to answer a question that we don't really know. The answer is... Well, I'm glad you come. That's obviously me that up all day. Yeah, don't know. We don't know. What is it about genetics that fascinates you? It's... God, well, she asked me that 30 years ago, and I would have done some more batting training instead. It's the fundamental basis of all life. So we have DNA, and we have genes, and genes in code. Proteins and proteins are what we're made of or by. And that's us, but it's also the same for every single organism that has ever existed for the last four billion years. So it's like asking the question, "What is the fundamental nature of living things?" And how does that turn this basic code, these letters in our genomes, into everything that we see. Every blade of grass, every human who's ever held a ball or bat, and every animal that's ever existed. And so you're asking the most fundamental questions about why life is the way it is, and genetics is the way in to answering those sorts of questions. Yeah, I mean, it must be something you could just never really fully get to grips with, isn't it? Because it's just almost impossible. The depth of this is almost impossible. Yeah, well, I'll never be out of work. And 20 years ago, Human Genome was published, which was supposedly the definitive, complete description of the DNA of a human being. And it was hailed by the great and the good, as this is the answer to everything, and soon we will know everything about humans and we will cure all diseases. You know, Tony Blair and Bill Clinton were on stage saying these sorts of things. You know, 25 years later, I remain gainfully employed as do all geneticists around the world saying, "Yeah, we don't really know how any of this stuff works." No, and yet it affects everyone. I can show you my hand. Yeah. What's going on with this little finger? There we go. What's going on with all of them, actually? That is because apparently I am of Viking descent. Ah, well, now you are in my territory. Yeah. So it's not my fault. It's not my mum's fault or my dad's fault or my uncle or anyone. Yeah. Someone back in the day. Yeah. Some Viking. Yeah. And this is Dupitran's contracture, which is apparently you have to be a Viking origin to have it. This is going to be another reason I'm not going to get it back invited onto this program. Every single European person that exists today, everybody in this country, every person in Europe, every person in this ground is of Viking descent. I'm afraid, Lagos, you're not special in that regard. I thought I was. No, afraid not. There's a whole industry of commercial tests that will tell you that you are. Oh, now Ebony's done one of these. She tried to... Eb's is of Viking descent as well. No, she's not. She certainly is. She's definitely Viking. Viking as well. Well, how come I've got this and she hasn't? She's got very straight fingers. I know. She's just much younger than you. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm not a minute. You've lost me with the Viking bit now because I assume... So I'm wrong in assuming that. It's the whole Viking genealogy. It hasn't... It's kind of spread around the world, is it? There's a point in time that if you go back far enough in any population or any country or nation or geographical landmass, there's a point in time where every single branch of every single person's family tree crosses through every single person who's alive at that time. So quite a tricky... Do you remember when... Do you know the program "Who Do You Think You Are?" Yes. Do you remember when they did Danny Dyer? I don't think I saw that one. Well, Danny Dyer, the actor, Cockney actor, and it turned out that he was 21 generations directly descended from Edward III. And it was a really cool moment in TV because, you know, he's this working class Cockney boy, landlord of the Queen Vic, and then, you know, they showed that he was descended from royalty. Well, I did. I watched that program and I thought, "That's really cool." And I thought, "I wonder if it's how true it is for everyone. You know, how many people in Britain are descended directly from Edward III?" So I spent a weekend working with Hannah Fry, mathematician who I do the program with, and we spent a couple of days working on this, and we came to the conclusion that the chance of anyone born in the 1970s in the UK, not being descended from Edward III, was zero. Not even small, it was actually, it was 10 to the minus 27, so more than the number of people who have ever existed. But basically, you are descended from Edward III, as is Ebbs, as I am, as is Henry, as is literally everyone in the stand in Trent Bridge. We are all somehow. Directed. Directed. But directed. No, not when you equally. Equally descended, because you have the same, if you are a direct, if you are descended from anyone, then they are your ancestor in the same way. So we are all directly connected. Directly descended. I'm direct. No, you're probably, you and Ebbs are probably fifth or sixth cousins. Oh, congratulations Ebony. Come and give me a hug. But you now have to hug everyone in Trent Bridge as well, because they are also, and given that Ebbs has Afro-Caribbean ancestry, she is probably a little bit more distant from most of the people of Nottingham. Well, that was a surprise of it. That is extraordinary. And I can see why it is a fascinating subject, though, and why you never really get down to that, the bottom of this vast bottomless pit of information. I've still got a lot of work to do, I think. Yeah. And again, is that the fascination of you? Just the fact that it is this vast, vast topic of throwing up surprises like that. I think it is stories. So my interest in human genetics and these sorts of ancestry and genealogy type questions, which I write about a lot, are, well, you know, science is hard. And it is very technical and requires, you know, really tedious and difficult maths and stats and experiments. But what I do is I talk about them because I think that the connection that you can get people interested in science is by telling stories about their ancestry. And so their ancestry and their genetics and, you know, why people, we yearn for answers about, to the questions of why we are, who we are. Absolutely. And our families. And that program for a start, it's a brilliant concept. Yeah. And you saying, well, I have Viking ancestry and explain something about me. Is part of you attempting to put yourself in the grand narrative of history? Now, sometimes it's the job of scientists to come to parties and ruin them. Which I clearly have just done. Well, no, I'm going to tell people from now on, and I get all Viking descent undertillment. Well, yes, it's true. Quite possibly. But then, yeah. Just tell me the players are going out shortly. I can see them gathering there. So we've just crack on. Ebony. I get everything a lot of mentions today. I don't know quite why. She sat down with me a couple of days ago. Actually, I'm not going to say this particular site, but you can key stuff in and you get answers back and information back. And not even that, but poems and recipes and all sorts of stuff. It's one of these AI, AI sorts of things. Oh, yeah. How much misinformation is there out there? Are you talking about an AI chat chatbot? Yes, basically. I can key in something. I could key in 10 questions for you. Yeah. Which I've just ticked them all off by the way. They came back with a 10 question. How much does that do you believe? How much false information is there out there? Well, there's a lot of false information out there, but I think that the types of chatbots that you're talking about, the specific one I think you're referring to, they are very, very impressive in terms of what they do. And are developing at a rate which I think is, if not troubling, it's something to be very aware of. They are being sourced, the source information that they're using is the internet. And so, if there's lots of misinformation out there that they're using, then that potentially can come into the output when you ask a specific question. So, my students, I'm a lecturer at UCL, and my students, we've wrangled quite hard about whether students are allowed to use. Yeah. How do you know that they're using or preventing them from using? So, I take the view that it's a tool, and they can use them. But they can use them as a basis for starting an essay and answering a question. Right. And not cutting and pasting. Yeah. And we can spot that. Generally, you can spot that, as it progresses, we might be able to spot it less well. But they can, you know, you can see because the language is really tedious or it doesn't sound like humans. But I take the view that it's research. Right. We don't ask people to write essays based on nothing and starting from the absolute beginning. They start with content that they look up and used to be the encyclopedia. And then it was Wikipedia, and now it's chat GPT. And I think that's a starting point in other words. I think that's OK. Yeah. But you just have to be very aware that it might be a load of old cobblots. Yes. Yes. Interesting. Adam, it's been lovely to have met you. You too, I guess. Doctor, Adam, well, thank you very much for coming in. Fascinating. I think I'm related to Ebony. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know who's had the biggest shock there. But anyway, thank you. Thank you for revealing that. This is my office. How do you really have to go over that? I'm expecting birthday. Christmas cards. I know. I want to be invited around to dinner more regularly. This is a disaster. Listen up, corporate types. It's me, Billie Eichl. You might use Workday's responsible AI to future-proof your business. That doesn't make you rock stars. When have rock stars ever been responsible? Be a finance and HR rock star with Workday. Hey, I hear you think podcasts are all about true crime, huh? Well, wise guy, the iHeartRadio app's got all kinds of podcasts. We got stuff you should know and stuff they don't want you to know. We got Bobby Bones, Big Boy, and Lou Lader. We got SpongeBob, Binge Pants, and exotic erotic story time. We got doe boys, two dudes in the kitchen, green eggs and Dan. Hey, we got Elf Quest. We got podcasts for everything on the iHeartRadio app for free. 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