Test Match Special

Antigua Cricket Knights

Daniel Norcross gathers together four legendary West Indies players who have all been Knighted for their services to cricket and who all come from the same island.

Antigua may be only 14 miles long and just 11 miles wide, with a population 550 times smaller than the UK – but it has produced an incredible number of great cricketers.

Norcross has been speaking to Sir Andy Roberts, Sir Richie Richardson, Sir Curtly Ambrose and Sir Viv Richards.

Duration:: 34m
Broadcast on:: 19 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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Open your free iHeart app and search grown up stuff. ♪ Grown up stuff ♪ ♪♪♪ BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm absolutely delighted to say that I am joined by four Antiguan Knights, four of the greatest players ever to have played cricket, and they've got some extraordinary memories. Obviously you're playing in England, almost all of them victorious. Away to my far right, Sarandi Roberts, the first Antiguan ever to play test cricket. Thanks to me, Sir Viv Richards, there's an awful lot to talk about there. Sir Curly Ambrose, most of their bats and Curly have been on test bat special, veterans of that, and another former captain Sir Richie Richardson. All of them, Knights of the Realm, all of them with incredible stories to tell, but I want to start with you, Sarandi, because you were the first Antiguan to play test cricket, and that must have been quite a thing, quite a thing for Antiguan. Yes, it was, got a call, a label on night that I have to go to Babi's very next morning to play, and I had some issues, because I tried two Babi's the day before, only to be told at night, that I had to fly back to Babi's. That's not very helpful, that's not how you want your test career to start, I wouldn't have thought. Well, it started one way, and it's hard to end a different way, so I must say that I enjoy all the years that I've played. And how did that debut go? The match ended in a draw, but it wasn't satisfying to me, because the very next game, I lost my place in a team, and I said home, only two days after reaching home, they fly to England to play for Hampshire. It sounds to me like you had English style selectors in those days, people already gave you one game. I'll tell you, you really hit the name on the head. No, because we certainly had guys, you know, who I can remember my first match as well, going to India, and you had a commentary there, I failed in the very first match, and there was a commentary I didn't want in my head, so I think it was pretty much prevalent at that time. So, just because of what we came from, because we were from the smaller islands who had a hard time making and staying on the West Indies. So that would be a thing with it, but that stage in West Indies cricket, most players would have been from Guyana, Jamaica, Tristan. The big four eyes you've got, I think it's yummy. Not most odd. So, you guys were pioneers, but you were also doing this for your country, and what did that mean to you? But when you found out that Andy got selected, did that instantly spark something in you? Well, partly, I think he was pretty much kind enough when he got selected. I was in a bingo all at night, having a few jars, and he came in, and he was quite courteous. He said we have been selected to go to Barbados, because most times we would have spent each time together. We would have been to half go over together, so we did a lot of things together as players. So that was quite kind of him to tell me of his selection, rather than hearing it on the news. And I can immediately then say, "I'm going to be the second," and it did come through. And how much later was that? Just about it? A couple of years after two years. It's just like once, I'll get up. I'm done for a minute. Well yeah, because then, if we go forward just a little bit, you're both out in Australia, and you may think we talk about England here, but that series, it seems to me, was a really important one for the development of West Indian cricket, because you're going out on your playing against the Lillian Thompson, and they'd come after England just a year before. Come at them, win-pace. And you guys, you were still selecting spinners, someone like to say Albert Padmore, I guess, would have been in around the team. Lunskibs. Lunskibs. I'm a great bowler that he was, well-recorded holder. But the experience of playing in Australia and losing seemed to me to be a catalyst for change in West Indian cricket, would that be fair? That sort of hardened us. We became hardened then, I remember after the Australian series, we went home and we played against India, and at the end of the year, we all knew what happened after that. We went to England and there was a free zip, so we were on a roll, and I've always felt that when you got on to Australia, that's your baptism, and we were humiliated in that particular series, and after that series, we felt that we could be better, and certainly we became better. Well, it's then you pick the strength of West Indian cricket. I mean, not withstanding the strength of the batting side, but the bowlers, and I think in '76, of Wayne Daniel, of Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, and sort of towards the back end, Vamburn Holders. And supplementing with Collis King, we've got five pretty brisk bowlers in that lineup. So was that a conscious choice to say, let's go with that strength? I remember Clive, who I used to spend a lot of time with, and we were having a drink one night in the Sydney bar, the players' bar, and he said, "Viv, the only way we are going to compete, we need to have some guys who are express, like the Dennis Lilly's and the Jeff Thompson," and we found them, spearheaded by the man here, then Michael Holding came, and after that, that's a string of great fast-boilers, and not antiquated and biby into your left. He came and did his thing as well, so we honor all. So, Curly, were you aware of, like, 1976? Because you came to cricket a little bit later, didn't you, in life? So I'm imagining Richie might have been keeping his eye on that series. It was such an iconic series because of, for a start, what Tony Gregard said for the exploits of Viv and Andy and Michael. Were you keeping a close eye on things? Well, I had no choice. My mother was a cricket fanatic, so she kept listening to all the comedies from all over the world when the rest of things were playing, so I had no choice. So I knew exactly what was going on, and I knew that we got some blows in Australia, so that is why when I played against them a few years later, I ditched it out. Revenge. Sort of. Richie, were you keeping a breast of this? Yeah, more certainly. I've been following Western history since I was a young boy, and I've always had aspirations to play for the Westerners even before Sir Viv and Andy played. And when they eventually got picked up for the Westerners, I said to myself, well, there's an opportunity because there was a lot of solidarity in the region where people thought only the players from the larger islands could play. We knew we could play. And, matter of fact, we believe, and if you speak to some of these guys, I would tell you that there are guys who have played Valentiga, who, if given the opportunity, probably could have played the Westerners as well. So when these guys made it, I said, good, I have a chance here, and I started digging even deeper. That series in Australia where Westerners lost 5-1, didn't see it live because we didn't have television back then. I saw replays in black and white, I used to go down by my aunt and every night and watch it. And I was really hurt. When I saw Lily and Tomo hitting all the batters and seeing blood at the crease and all that kind of stuff, all those things energized me and motivated me. And I kept doing stuff. I wanted to meet these guys one day. I wanted to do, and I didn't get a chance against Lily because when I got selected for the Westerners, he had just played the series before. Tomo was still playing, but he was out of the team, and then he decided he was going to make a comeback, one series we were doing down there, and we played against Queensland, and he was playing for Queensland. And I remember when we turned up in Australia, Rudmash made a statement in the paper, said the only way that Australia is going to be there when the windies is to knock their songs so head off. I want to use the adjective. And I was a young boy now, I'm saying that that's what I like. From Antigua, we play tough cricket, we are very competitive. You play village cricket, the league cricket back home is highly competitive. So the sort of things that motivate us, if somebody said that I kill you, come, let's go, try and kill me, and I'm going to try and get the best of you. So after that match, there was no Thompson, we made a comeback after he tried to bump me out. He put him out of the world a few times. But I've always followed the Westerners, the series in England, when Tony Gregg said he was going to let the team grovel, I mean, I wasn't playing then, of course, but I was also hurt. And the guys responded in a very positive way. Like we normally would do, you know, you can't do this kind of thing, it's about us. We play hard, we play fear, but don't try to embarrass us. Don't try to make us look smart, you know, because we will dig deep and let you feel the pain. I mean, that was Andy catastrophically daft thing for Tony Gregg to have said, wasn't it? But it also came with a kind of, no, no, no, that was an encouragement. The courage went to you. But it was also, but it felt wrong. I mean, coming from a South African man, there were other connotations within that. And it seemed to work as a very strong incentive and by the time we get to the oval in fairness to Tony, he did actually grovel himself, didn't he? I'm going to tell you exactly what happened in that particular match or series. We were all getting prepared for a team meeting that night and ITV News came on. I think normally 545, you get the news and, wow, here's Tony Gregg and his South African accents, you know, saying one and one, you're going to make the rest of it. And it seemed grovel. And I remember we all watched and there wasn't any need for us to have a meeting after that. It wasn't any need, you know, we all watched that Tony Gregg and what he said and I said that was it. He sealed it. He definitely sealed it, you know, I make God bless you so he's no longer with us. But at the end of the day, I think he was trying to motivate his team as best as he could. But it never let, it never worked. It really didn't and it wasn't just, you know, moments in that series. There was absolute dominance, you in partnership Andy with Michael Holding, obviously when I think of the oval test, that was mostly Mikey. But then you had incredible moments at Old Trafford, Trent Bridge. We've got some great scenes that we could remember. You know, Brian Close coming out the bat and let me, let me say this, Trent Bridge was an inspiration to us because we about it first. We've got a double hunter and I need no introduction to Tony Gregg because when he came into butt, I was born. So everything started from Trent Bridge and every time Tony Gregg comes out, even though we were any of the fast-borners, a bull, a tenor with spell, one she wore on the field, coming out with Vavos, Trent. That, I tell you something, what he said, I don't think he had the players to back it up. Yeah. And they suffered a failure to, yeah, you know. Well, in fairness, we're recording here at Eddie Lee, Andy. He did get, I mean, I'm not going to say he got his own back, he had what he had. We're editing Sierra Lee with Alan Knott when he's got 116, but really England were decimated throughout. And I just want to come to the end of that series before we move on because we've got 291 there. It was the very first test match I watched as a child live and it was the end of a scorching summer and it was the end of a series, it was, it will rubber stamp the dominance. What are your memories of that 291? I can remember for sure. I didn't get the 300. Okay. And the same guy who often is not particular sentiment about making the rest of his team grovel, got me out. Oh, I wasn't too pleased about that. So you scored two 90 one and then the same boy who said what he said, got me out. I think I got it inside edge and being bold, I wasn't pleased, wasn't, wasn't pleased. I don't know. You would feel satisfied enough going to 91. But wow, I just want to suffer some more. So look, we got to the end of 76 and two Antigons have got in the side and Andy, you were the 149th West Indian, oh, you were the 151st. After that, there's a whole load. There's Eldin Baptiste, there's Winston Benjamin, there's Kenny Benjamin, there's the two gentlemen. It's why I left Curly and Richie. This is, they will be, yeah, they'll be better. But in order to see if they have others, I would draw them. Yep. Dave, draw them. Woodley, drag ups. So this is, it's, I'm thinking about this space of time suddenly, there's a lot of players from Antigu getting recognition. So Richie, do you think, and well, I'll ask Curly first, is it, was that because of what Richie was saying earlier, that, you know, Antigons could very well have been selected for the West Indies, they've been overlooked. And now a couple of guys have come in, they've had massive stellar series that proved something for the nation. And now, like the downers burst. Yeah, I remember hearing the late Great Sir Frank Warrell said that, you know, in time to come, you'll have to look for smaller islands for the cricketers for the West Indies. And I'm quite sure many laughed at him, but he probably was a prophet because that happened. And once suddenly made that initial breakthrough, followed by a survey, and then many of us after, I want to look back at the glory years of West Indies cricket. The dominant years, you know, and I'm proud to say this, they had Antigons on that team on a consistent basis that had the team be so dominant, and I'm very, very proud to say that. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm Nicole Berry, host of SkinCuries, a podcast brought to you by Ruby Studio from iHeartMedia. Can we talk about how incredible our skin is? It's our protector, while also serving as a litmus test as to how our body is functioning physically and emotionally. Let's unravel the mysteries around our skin and get to the heart of how to make everybody glow from the inside out. Listen to SkinCuries on America's #1 podcast network iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search SkinCuries. How did that happen? An island nation of 90,000 people. I am from somewhere in London called Tooting, and before I saw you today, I know it's a silly name, but before I came to see you today, I thought, I'm going to Google just to see how many test cricketers have come from Tooting, and I can tell you, the answer is none. One of them has died in Tooting. That's he handled. He was a very good player, but I don't think Tooting can claim to him. You can say you have a broadcast, but yeah, we got a broadcast, yeah. Those who can't do, those who can't broadcast, so, I mean, like, Tooting is around about 90,000 people. And Tia, I've got you four before we, and we've just done a role call of honor. How come? We warriors, right? We love to fight. We love a challenge, and people refer to us as a small island. We don't see ourselves as people with big hearts, who are always willing, ready, and willing to take on the world at anything. And as I said before, you go and you, there's some guys that have played with back home in the leagues. I mean, and I thought that if they were given the opportunity, they would have been there before me, big heart, and they're always prepared to fight and fight, and they never wanted to lose. And I think that's just something about Antigas and Barburons, and that's why we have really come to the fore. Once we've given the opportunity, we've got to excel. Out of the horizon, sorry, if you check the history of western in Shkurkit, we will call Calipseukurkit. Calipseuk means you play very well, but you end up losing. From the time the Antigans went on the team, they brought a totally different publishing to the team, because a fan, people now come with heart, who never gives up, and we want to make sure that West Indies own its glory days to the Antigans, because it was the beginning of Antigas entering into Shkurkit, when West Indies start to win and win constantly. How is Shkurkit currently in Antigas now, because what we've been describing here is what must have been a really incredible moment for the island, you know, all the players would talk about that ball and be around here. What state is it in at the moment, Shkurkit in Antigas? Shkurkit is still very popular. A lot of young cricketers are playing, you know, I've got to be honest that the standard at the moment isn't as high as it used to be, but it's still a lot of cricket being played, and I'm quite sure that as Antigas and by appearance, we are loaded with talent, in big hearts, you know, the will to win, the will to succeed, you know, so we will soon save his surgeons, you know, in Antigas cricket, for starters, and in the West Indies cricket, and like I said before, once the Antigas, you know, were since laying up, you're going to be OK. Now, let me take you back a bit, so I'm jumping around a little bit, but, so I'm thinking about the late '70s and early '80s, so it's not a coincidence you've got all these players coming to you, because you're playing against each other as well, presumably, so the club seen in Antigas, you're playing at a really high standard here, I guess, like someone like Barbados may be equivalent with... That's a test match, Barbados first delivered the Helens, it is a test match, and certainly the crowd at the Thames says that, you know, it's because you have the debadions at the time, they had all the quicks of such, you know, and the Georgana, the Malcolm Marshall, the Sylvester Clarkson, they had an awesome lineup, but we only had a few who took care of him this, but, I mean, the standard, therefore, that you guys would have been playing in, not just into Ireland, but even on Antigua itself, as you were kind of developing, your skills must have been pretty high. Both of them, both of them are so pleased for a club called Raising Sun, when you go back from Kong to cricket, when every Raising Sun is playing against St John's, it's like a test match, your people all along the world are all over watching cricket, and I don't think it happened today, because the guys who so-called stars, when they go back, they don't take part in domestic cricket on a regular basis. So, Andy, will you be playing against Richie? No, I'll never play against Richie, when I stop playing cricket, which is just coming in. Charlie, do you have a ball and a wave? In Covid cricket? No, but not in Antigua. Not locally, no. I mean, those guys weren't around that much, you know, travelling towards Busyney. I played against Richie once in local cricket, before I made the Busyney's team, and I know what is capable of, so I played against him in a one day game. Do you try a bit harder? Well, I bought in two bounces, and he docked, and that to me was a win-win. There was no Sabijis as a hooker. I was studying him up, you know. So he was two bounces, and he docked. I said, "Oh, I've got the great Richard Duck, I'm good." Competition back in those days were really, really tough. You know, I remember when I made the Busyney's team first, and I came back from a tour. I went to represent my village, sweets. And in my mind, I figured I'm an international cricketer. I have nothing to prove at this level. And I said, "I've got an Amblin." And a very, very good friend of mine told me, "No, no, as an international cricketer. You have to be a cut above the rest. Is someone watching the game, and they don't know who you are?" They must see something a little bit different. And I said, "But I've got him to prove." He said, "No, these guys beat up on you, and they're not going to look good." And right away, I said, "No, what?" For me, this is the international cricket. So I'd have given it everything I've got, and there's a polite thing as well. Now, you came into the cricket scene. We alluded to this a little bit later. The next of the four of you to get selected for the West Indies is Richie. And your first tour is out in India. And Andy's on that tour. You would have been on that tour. Yeah, so there were three antigens now. - Oh, there were four antigens. - Oh, they were about two. Four antigens in the team. But you're pretty young. You're pretty raw. That must have been a real help, wasn't it, to have the likes of Andy and Bill? Of course, first of all, it was a cultural shock for me. In my first tour in India, everything is totally different. The food, the culture, the wickets, the wickets were never seen anything like that before. So I had to work hard, and it was tough. And of course, I got tremendous support from these two gentlemen, and other senior players as well, because it was a team. There was a cohesive force within the team, and it wasn't easy. Even though we won, we had to work even harder. So everybody would help each other, spending more time in the net, longer time in the net with each other, if I have a fault, a survey or a douche. Somebody would come to me and say, "You're doing this wrong, you're doing this," you know, whatever. So I really enjoyed my first tour after the first couple of weeks, where I had to overcome the deli-belli as well. I quickly got back into my strides and started working really hard. I played one test match, and I got out for a doc of the LBW off the face of the bat. So I said to myself, "Well, this is going to be tough." I told myself, "Welcome to test cricket." I said, "Could not believe that I played the ball off the face of the bat." "I don't know if I'll give you out there with LBW." You know, so... Actually, no new to-rumbias were around him. No, yeah. But it was tough, and it was the learning experience for me, because it was tough. It was a good baptism for me. But within a year, the West Indies are back in England, and this is a really significant moment in the story of West Indies cricket, because it's just sort of, not quite halfway through the period of dominance, but you're very close to it, aren't you, if we take 76 to 95, 1984, that team wins 5-0, and a lot of people call that the Black Wash, but if you call that the White Wash, don't you? And the Black Wash is the rather than the West Indies. That's bad stuff. I think it's fair to say we White Wash you in England, and we Black Wash you in the island that we were born. 10 matches out of 10, but I want to focus on the English ones. It's extraordinary. Yeah, but I tell you something, you know, that was '84, then '86. And in 1988, when we came back to England, that was my first tour. The first game I turned with was John, because of real England. And, you know, the English press, England are finally ready for the West Indies, you know, and they lost 4-0, so it's 14-0 in 15 tests. Well, I think about two days lost that Tripp's Bridge Test there was open. In '84, there are some incredible performances. I want to ask you about your memories of the Lord's Test. I mean, I didn't think that's a bit weird, because it was Gordon Greenwich's Double Hundred. But that seemed to me to be symptomatic of your team's complete dominance, that David Gao was captain, yeah? And I think he didn't have the declaration. It was the declaration, 300 odd to win, in less than a day. But you guys didn't just win it, you won with, like, an hour to spare it. Are there any victims of all of us a run-out, wasn't it? I think, I think Larry Gomes are. Larry got some runs as well. And I was ever so happy. I took the real pleasure in just sitting on that balcony and watching the boys do their business. And it was especially because of the declaration. Whenever you declare, you expect that you're going to make some inroads and do well. But when you lose, I think Gao, the press really gave it to David in the end. Well, I think it was, was that nine-week, win, wasn't it? Yes, nine-week, that's why. And the one-week, it's a fool, wasn't to a bowler. And that, you could just sort of feel the energy come out of England and the realization of the mountain to climb. So I would have to ask you about that team, because you saw so much of this period from '76 to '91, and you guys fill in the rest of the details to the end of that period. Was '84 the kind of, sort of '84 to '86, were that the apex of this team? Or is it really, you know, one continuous period of dominance? You can't really choose between. I love the analysts, I'm handled at. No, I would want it for the first part. '84, I was out of it. So you will have to, you know, share that responsibility. Oh my God. And it's a hard question. I guess, for the question in another way, when did you feel most absolutely certain of victory? Because, you know, when we get to '91 and '95, England weirdly fired back a bit. Well, I'll tell you something. Even the Graham Gooch period, I think Graham brought a sort of culture to some of the team members of his team, that they kind of cheated things. And somewhat, the series started to get a little closer, rather than the wide margin of wins that we would have had. The series started to get a little closer. There were times when, I think, one of my tools here, we lost our very first test match here at Heddingley. And it was a rainy sort of a season. And we were struggling, wondering whether or not it could have been my last series. '91? Yeah, we all feel the same. Wow, England looks like I wanted maybe to have a cliche. And the rain sort of interrupted that particular process. But at the end of the day, we had some play, and we were able to level the series. And I think, England, we went two on up. England came back at the over and won that particular test match. And because of the nonsense that I believe went on the series before, when we had Australia and the Caribbean, two-two victory was just perfect for us. Why I say this? Because I analyzed maybe Premier League football. And Premier League football, a team goes away from home. You never hear them speak loudly about winning. If I come back with a job, I'm OK. So we are pretty happy with that particular job, away from home. Well, England still hadn't been you. And your first tour, currently, was in 1988. You're part of that four-nil. And that was a really dominant performance, again. And England seemed to be in disarray. I mean, in multiple captains. That was it? Yeah, I can remember. You almost had a captain for every match. Sure, it was. Very was captain, wasn't it? Yeah. Like Graham Gooch and what have you. So, you know, there was an awful lot of that happening. But you, I want to give us your memories of here at heading me, because you took a five for here. And I know it's, again, that you guys lost. But really Graham Gooch won it, rather than you lost it, because he played one of the greatest innings in the test history. Yeah, yeah, that was in 1991. 1991. It got 150 or something. 154, not allowed. It's on the board. You know, played extremely well against a great rest in his attack. You know, big of him credit. You know, he was the one responsible for them getting over their line. You know, and I've always, well, a few games I've played here at heading me. The wickets were always a bit bold or friendly, which makes that not so much more special. Because the boy was doing a lot and he stuck around. Nobody else really were in the fight. You know, so that was a great nut from him. And he was the difference with them winning it. But you played a lot of cricket in England. I mean, this is the thing that we've got to remember, is we keep talking about you guys playing cricket. Test cricket. But Andy played for Hampshire. They played for Somerset, Glomorgan. Somerset Glomorgan. Somerset Glomorgan. Richton. Richton? Yeah. I've currently in North Pants. Richie, when we're at heading there, you played here. So your memories of cricket in England are not just test matches. How much did the fact that you've driven? And are you played in England? A fair bit before you came to play England, if you know what I mean. Was that a help? No, I'll tell you. Let me answer that. I can tell you that we left home diamond in the rough. So what I think we needed at the time for us to play a lot more cricket, because as Richie would have had mentioned earlier, we talented a lot of people. And we just needed an opportunity. And given opportunity to come to England, we have just a mecca of cricket, lords, and all the famous names that you hear about the game in itself. And to be given an opportunity to come here is just basically to polish up that diamond or the diamond in the rough. And certainly that was basically happened. Well, I was a fast ball before coming to England. But in England, I learned how to ball. And I would say the art of fast ball in England. And in those days, with the uncovered pitches, that is what taught me how to ball. Because I realize if you hit the ball in the ground, it's going to be mud. So you have to learn to do something with the ball. And I learned that till in that scene in short time. I asked you the other day about one of your happiest innings. And I was kind of expecting you to say 230 odd that we've talked about in '76 or the 291, or the 189 in the one day game with Badsy and Viking. But actually, you said, over Somerset, and winning Somerset's first trophy. Yeah. How much that might have to do. You've been there, but that's just one particular half, and maybe of satisfaction. Somerset never won nothing in 170 years, I guess, of competing. So to have maybe two guys from the Caribbean helped in accomplishing that. I felt that was a milestone I saw in a big way. What's up, y'all? Janice Torres here. And I'm Austin Hankowitz. We're the hosts of Mind the Business, Small Business Success Stories, a podcast presented by iHeartRadios, Ruby Studios, and Intuit QuickBooks. 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