The Nathan Crane Podcast
Bible Conversations #1 - Is God Loving or Vengeful - Jonathan Otto | Nathan Crane Podcast
Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Today, we're doing something really special, something really unique, something I haven't done yet on this podcast that I'm really looking forward to. And this will be part one in a series of conversations on the Bible. And so multiple conversations will follow. And I'm really excited about this because today I have my really good friend Jonathan Otto on. And today we're going to be talking about this contradiction that we often see between the Old Testament and New Testament and this contradiction that we see of the question I've had in my mind for many years is God, a vengeful God, a angry God, a jealous God, one that condemns and burns people to hell for their sins. Or is God a loving God, a caring God, a God that understands and forgives and is all compassionate? Because I don't think you can have both at the same time. I don't think that is certainly to me not possible. And so this conversation, we're going to deep dive into this topic. And not here to say that either of us have all the answers, we're not here to judge or say this is the absolute truth. But both of us have spent quite a bit of time not only researching the Bible, in my case researching many different religions and traditions, but Jonathan actually has spent probably more time than most over his short life so far in really studying the Bible and really living it and really questioning it and really having deep faith. And so I'll have Jonathan show with you a little bit here about his own life of faith and his own research into the Bible. He's got some really fascinating and unique ideas that I rarely hear, even from scholars and from pastors that I've questioned over the years. And so some of the ideas that I've come to through my practice of faith are very similar to the ideas that Jonathan has shared with me. And so we've come to these same conclusions on certain topics, not on everything, but on certain topics and ideas that I think are rare in the Christian community. And in many spiritual communities that I've spoken with about these topics, and so some things we may agree on, some things we may not, some things we may disagree on, but certainly we want to have this conversation and invite you into the conversation. Share your thoughts. Let us know below the video. What are your questions? What are your thoughts? What do you think about what we're sharing? Because I think these are important conversations that we have, because the Bible can absolutely be misunderstood and misinterpreted. And we all probably have and are misinterpreted and misunderstanding it at different points and different areas in our life and understanding. And so for me, I think it's really important that we gain more understanding and its conversations like this allow us to do it. So Jonathan, brother, thanks for coming on, man. I'm super excited to have this conversation with you. Same here, bro. For sure. Thank you, Nathan, for the opportunity. I love this conversation, because it's so deep, it's so personal. It's something that relates to everyone, in my opinion. It's something that is in someone's heart and mind continually. So if you can elevate someone's perception of God, it could change their whole belief in themselves. It can change their understanding of their own identity of who they are and their value that they possess. And so I think it's an awesome conversation I'm super excited to share. Yeah, can you give a couple of minutes on your background with your, with faith? Sure. So I grew up in a Christian family, and I questioned things a lot. I was a very skeptical child. I doubted a lot. I saw lots of what I thought was hypocrisy. And that's simply, I think, because I was trying to find what I wanted to be like, as I was natural that a child will look to see what's real and what's not, and then say, I don't really think that these people are for real or these kinds of things. And so I had a lot of doubts about faith, about God, about Christianity. I had a lot of doubts about all of this. And kind of I was very much drawn at an early age into humanitarian work. And I felt like it was like a substitute, like that this is actually what people need. They need to do things for others. And this whole thing about faith is really kind of a distraction that makes people feel good about themselves, potentially, but then has no real world impact and actually takes people away from the frontline of service and love and care and saving people from starvation. And these were the thoughts that I had in my mind. And so I quite resented many aspects of it. I don't think I've told you about that, Nathan. And I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder with it and certain things that I guess that that was that they were the factors that came together for me that made me feel like I just don't know about all of this. And they were at age 19, then I started studying the Bible very deeply myself. And it was out of a drive like I felt a need. They came at this point where I felt like as much as I wanted to try to do, I really felt lacking in myself that there was a gaping hole and that it my self worth or my perception of myself and my desire to achieve and perform and to do things that were socially acceptable and to be powerful and important. And all these things were driving me on this pendulum where I was swinging up and down with my my self worth. And so I was I was high and then low and then high and low. And it was driving me crazy. And so I just remembered this breaking down in tears, you know, continually thinking, what is wrong? Like, I don't like this equation of life. And so caused me to then go deeper into asking the question, do I need God? And this came up because I then started to feel like I can kind of understand what people need when they pursue a relationship with God. And I feel like there's something missing my life and I can't find it. I can't find it in in success. I can't find it in girls. I can't find it in, you know, pursuits or I just can't find it. And so then this then caused me to open the Bible and to start to study it deeply and to seek to understand it. And and that actually I saw it change lots of different aspects of my life. I got to the point where, you know, over the years, absolutely thousands upon thousands of hours and all kinds of aspects of the Bible from prophecy of how the Bible predicted future events that have historically, you know, happened and come to pass. And then others that I see all the signs that they're happening even in the midst of us now. And then and then this deeper conversation that came around a concept called Theodicy, which is not theology, Theodicy, which is the pursuit of God's character to understand it. And I felt that something about that was deeply connected to who I am. And there were these contradictions that I couldn't resolve, which was these ideas of a vengeful God, which then to me showed up in a few things, which were one, films and entertainment that was highly stimulating, that often had themes of violence, punishment. And and then also, like a sexual drive that was, I could see it was out of whack. And you know, the desire for things that were disassociated and disconnected, for example, you know, discovering pornography when I was a, you know, mid teenager. And then and then realizing that this is bad, quote unquote, getting it out of my life. And then yet finding like, you know, why do I want things like this? And then realizing it was connected to my pursuit for God and me not finding comforting God, me actually having without me realizing a vengeful view of God, this, this thing that you talked about where it had a canceling effect, because I, I grew up Christian. So Christian, you know, belief frequently teaches that God stands to judge over the human race and will, you know, decide whether you're good enough. And then we'll, you know, basically, if you really think about it, most Christians are living under a condemnation that they will, you know, potentially never size up for God and then be ultimately thrown out and rejected by God and even tortured by God in, in a place called hell. And these things torment to me without me even realizing, and it was driving these other things. And, and I only really saw, I only actually realized this was the driving force behind it until I once I started to study the Bible and realized that my beliefs on God were false. And they came through a roof, really a reflection of myself. And, and others were teaching a reflection of themselves. And so this became a widely accepted teaching. But it, once I uprooted it, then these behaviors, these thoughts, these beliefs, these behavior, these patterns all disappeared. And I saw myself free from these chains that even people that are, you know, completely secular and atheistic, often, you know, want to get rid of like a pornography addiction would prefer a deep connection with their spouse or something of that manner. And, you know, I definitely, you know, it was really grateful to find that. So that's kind of how it all comes full circle for me. Yeah, beautiful. And we can get into more specific stories and experiences that you've gone through over the years too. And I'll share a little bit about my background in a minute. But first I want to talk about this. What we see in Old Testament, right, where we see, like a vengeful God, there's a, there's a pretty classic example. First Samuel, chapter 15, verse two, "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which amolek did Israel, how laid wait for him in the way when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite amolek and utterly destroy all that they have and spare them not, but slay both man and woman infant and suckling oxen sheep camel and ass and saw gathered the people together and numbered them into lame 200,000 foot-minute 10,000 men of Judah, right. And so this is basically, and there's multiple examples in Old Testament where it shows, you know, God condoning death and violence and killing. Have you heard of PEMF therapy for cancer? Well, this podcast is brought to you by Dr. Pollock. And he wants to share with you the groundbreaking research of post electromagnetic field therapy in the treatment of cancer. 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You know, a lot of these concepts is vengeful God concept that we have. But there are very many, so I do want to say the contradiction is there are many Old Testament passages where God is portraying love, where God is merciful, right? And then many in the New Testament as well. And so, you know, this is that kind of contradiction and I think where we get confused. Also, this is slightly off track, but I want to mention it because I have it right here, is this word "fear," right? And so, I'm a God-fearing man, right? We hear that a lot. And throughout the Old Testament, you'll see, you know, Deuteronomy 13.4, which is actually Deuteronomy, is that New Testament? No, that's Old Testament. Yeah, ye shall walk after the Lord, your God, and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him and cleave unto him. Deuteronomy 6.2, that thou mightiest fear, that thou mightest fear the Lord, thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, on and on, 6.5, and thou shalt, now it says, and thou shalt love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy might. So, that contradiction, fear and love, what's really been so helpful for me is I really dive into deeper research into the Bible. I've, over my last 20 years or so, and kind of my spiritual journey, I have, you know, gone through various aspects of researching parts of the Bible, like not the whole thing in depth like I'm doing now. I'm doing from beginning to end every single day, reading it, praying on it, reading the meanings of the words, the original Aramaic or Hebrew or Greek meanings of the words, right? And writing about it, and meditating on it, and praying on it. So, I'm doing, I did that in small, like small pieces, it chunks throughout the Bible over the years, and now I'm doing the whole Bible that way. And the thing that's helped me so much is the app that you sent me, SKJV, right, which is Strong's King James Version. It's a free app. And basically, you can click on a word and see what the original definition of that word is. And so, when I looked up fear, what is the original meaning of fear in the original language? It's to revere, right? To respect, not to be afraid of, but to, but to respect, to revere. Reverence for something is significantly different than what we think of today as fear for something. And that's what I got chills thinking about, because it changes the whole meaning of every time you read the word fear God in the Bible. See here it says fear God, fear God, love God, right? What it's saying is revere God, revere God, respect God, love God. Now the contradiction is gone. Now it makes sense. It's saying love God, love God, respect God, revere God. But we take the word fear literal today instead of understanding the original language it was written in. And that, to me, was like a huge, because I came to the same concept even without being a Christian, even without, you know, going to church. I came to this same concept 15, 16 years ago that God is love. God is nothing but love. God only loves us only as compassion for us. Only wants us to do good. Only is here to serve us to help guide us to our highest good, to show us a loving, pure, happy, joyful life. I came to that conclusion on my own just like you did. We did it through different paths. But now it's like I'm seeing these ways as I studied the Bible of where, you know, misunderstandings have led people into a dark life. Because if you're afraid of something, right? Fear prevents you from making your highest decision for the highest good. We know this psychologically. We know that if you're afraid of something, you often will make poor choices. So why would God want us to make poor choices? I'm afraid of God. Now I'm going to make poor choices. That doesn't even make sense psychologically. But when you revere God, I respect God. And I love God. Now my whole brain is hardwired, literally designed to help me make good choices in my life, for my family, for my future, for my health, for humanity, right? And so understanding these deeper meanings of the words is essential, I think, in our pursuit of the truth, in our pursuit of the truth to God. 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If you look at 1st John 4a, it says, "Perfect love casts out fear for fear has torment." And that fear is not made perfect in love. Isn't that interesting? And anyone that really believes in the Bible and says, "This is my text for life," doesn't generally believe that there's this contradiction. It's not supposed to be there. If there's a contradiction, it's a contradiction in your own understanding. And it's one that's there designed to help you wrestle with something. It's there to use your mind to work through it. And then yet you keep clicking on the word fear and you keep looking at the root of, even the root of reverence has to do with admiration. It's about beholding and seeing something that draws you and is awe inspiring. So think about the word awful. I mean, awful is full of awe. So we would use the word awful to say something is bad, but you're in awe of that. So that actually, the same word, even in just in English, could be used to describe something horrible or something beautiful. Why is something that, you know, it's awe, you know, necessarily then couch just being negative. Same thing is true for the word wrath and anger. So these are words that you would say, "Well, wrath of God, anger, these are clearly negative words, then you can't get around this." But it's an old English word. So you've got to understand it in the old English, not whatever you think it means or whatever your pastor think it means. What does the text actually teach? And the power in something like Strong's concordance was, you know, formulated by James Strong is not because he was brilliant. It's because he was getting every verse on the subject and looking at every possible meaning for this word based on the context. So not making up words, saying this is what this means in every context, hence why it comes up with different meanings. But fear and anger translate, the words are like, for example, in Hebrew, af, and in Greek, orge. Orge is where we get the word orgasm. Isn't that strange? And even origami is interesting. You look at, because it, which is to fold, but the word orge is very similar to the word af, which means to quiver, which is what people have when they're in, like, either pleasure, anger, or immense pain. And so now translate in. Okay, so God is, and the af, for example, is rapid breathing through the nose and to quiver the body to shake. And so the wrath of God is actually the suffering of God. And then you look at the words, for example, af, you know, suffering and long suffering, these words are examples of that. So they're used like in similar fashion. So when God is suffering, then these words can get translated as words that are denoted and closely connected to anger and wrath. And so people say, okay, God is angry at me versus God is suffering because of my choices. So different. And then like, hang on, let's pause there for a second, because yeah, that is such a different perspective to think that the wrath is not the wrath of God condemning you, the wrath of his anger towards you, the root of that actually being almost, you know, God, almost that God is sad, right? They're like, there's almost a sadness there because you are walking away from God when God is opening his loving arms to you. Yeah. You know, and on that note, there's a, so Galatians 5 22, right? That was to New Testament. But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, right? And Galatians 5 13, for brethren, you have been called into liberty, only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another, for all the laws fulfilled in one word, even in this thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 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It's a huge takeaway here, Nathan, to prove what you're saying is true and what I'm saying is true where it becomes undeniable is the revelation of Jesus. Because if we didn't have that, then it would become very debatable. We could go and look at these and say, "Well, look, wrath is used to describe when people are actually angry and want to murder somebody. They're used in this context and it can be used. It's a dual word. It can be used to know it long-suffering. So which one is it?" You really can't work it out. You just have to sit there and go, "Well, I want it to be the good one." But then where do you have the strong evidence that no, it absolutely is the good one. There's no way around this. There's no way to resolve the contradiction. The answer to that is through Jesus. There is a reason why Jesus is the most famous figure in all history. It's not because he was like an Alexander the Great, that he conquered many armies. It's actually the opposite. It's that he was so meek. The miracles that were recorded and these things were profound. But the thing that really topped it all off was his lack of violence, period, and especially his lack of violence when under the most horrific threats. You have a servant of the high priest, Malcolm, is taking him to get executed. And then he has one of his followers that thinks of things in a more militia-type sense. Let's fight back. It's a normal human behavior. Tries to basically take off the head of this guy, just hits the ear off. The ear is on the ground. He picks it up, puts it on his face, and here he is being led to his death. This is a very nobling thought to think about somebody that would be willing to submit themselves into the hands of their betrayers and then be, even in this case, crucified and then still not to call down fire and judgment on people. The words that come from his lips are, "Father forgive them. They don't know what they're doing." Now, is this something that we just take and say, "Okay, well, here's this other side to God, and here's this other side to God from the Old Testament, and you better get your life right, otherwise the other God is going to come out, or is this just the consistent way that God is, that this is a full revelation of God's love in Christ, and then our understanding of Christ then illuminates the rest of the Scriptures and helps us understand. There's a beautiful passage in 2 Corinthians 3, 14, and it says, "But their minds were blinded for until this day remains the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament, which veil is done away within Christ." Like New King James, it's a little bit easier, "But their minds were blinded for until this day, the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament because the veil is taken away in Christ." I mean, there's a veil. There's something that's obstructing your reading of the Old Testament or of the systems or the sacrificial system of with the lambs and all these things. This is all obstructed because of your own self, because your own self requires sacrifice, and until people can work this out, they won't work it out, because unless you can work out that you require sacrifice, then it doesn't make sense why God is even speaking through these symbols, and then you come and you see that even Jesus didn't even partake in the sacrificial system. At the Passover, he's eating wine, which translates to grapes, so it could be fermented or not, considering that you see more evidence for non-fermented. People will kind of scoff at that, but John the Baptist was forbidden from drinking any alcohol. His parents, Samson's parents, were told he is not to drink any strong drink. When Christ was receiving the wine on the cross, he says he refused it, and to numb the pain, he refused it. My point being specifically just getting to the point, it was bread, and it was a grape juice of whatever kind. It was not even the sacrificial lamb. The death system is really a human system, and when people realize that, then they start realizing that the only way for God to now reach humanity is by agreeing with their psychology to lead them out of it. Because people are convinced in a reality, you can't convince them out of it. The purchase price of the human race, the need for a blood sacrifice, for example, Christ the die instead of us, because the whole ethos of Christianity is that Christ died in my place to take away the death penalty that was owed to me that God was going to have to pay to me, and he was going to have to execute me out of my sins for what I've done. It's so hard for people to escape this because we've all known what we've done wrong, and imagine if you took the life of somebody who did something that was irreversible, and all of us have done irreversible things that have hurt people. Now, how do you just believe that you just get off the hook that it's not fair, it's not right, it's not okay? So then the demand for there to be a death penalty is within your own soul, and so you need to see the death penalty enacted, and then that's the window for you to even believe that you could be saved by God. And so you see Christ come, and then all the people that are involved in crucifying him are all disobeying God. Pilate has given a vision from his wife, and Angel comes to her in a dream, her vision says, "Have nothing to do with this innocent man." And then, you know, and then Pilate is then washing his hands saying, "It's not my fault." He then laid a suicide if you look at the history of Pilate, it's not recording the Bible, it's recording history. God was trying to save him from this fate. God was trying to save all the different people from doing this wrong thing. It wasn't his plan, but it was one that he was able to reach us through. And then you come back, you start unlocking all the scriptures of the Old Testament and realizing that God was showing mirrors to the human soul of their death and violence, and even passages like what you started on, the command to kill the Amalekites. This was horrific because it specifically appears that God is condoning the killing of not only women, but children, not only children, but infants and sucklings, 1 Samuel 15, verse 3, to kill infants and sucklings commanded by the Lord, and you'll find Christians just having to find a way to justify it. But then how do you have any value with God when a child like this could be executed when, I mean, who has more sin in their life? Me or that Amalekite child that's born into a pagan tribe that is involved in lots of dark and evil things, but that child is, it's nursing on its mother's breast. It has not done anything. I've got far more to account for it. Now, my belief that God is okay with killing these infants, they're now reflects on my own worth to God. I'm obviously worth nothing to God if this child's not because I've done worse. And so just understanding that when, even if you look at the passage, young's little translation translates it way differently. It says, Saul, you have killed Amalek. You have killed man, woman, and infant and suckling instead of the King James, which again, I'm not saying the King James is a bad translation, but I am saying that you have to then do your own referencing to understand because you're at the mercy of the translator that took it from the original into English in this case. And so Saul is seeing a mirror of his own soul. He's decided himself to kill the Amalekites. God is now showing him what he's planned to do. And in the young's literally, he's saying that you have done this. And so it's an example that then now alleviates God from being the one that's harming and killing. And then you're seeing God now interact with people within their own psyche. And James 123 says, if a man is a hero of the word, not a doer, it is as if he's beholding his natural appearance in a mirror going away and forgetting the manner of person that he was. So you're looking at a mirror when you're looking at it. You're seeing Saul's darkness and violence in God is reflecting it back to him. It's why you also see passages where it says that the Lord repented of the evil that he thought to do to Israel, which makes no sense to a Christian because they would say, well, I'm a Christian, by the way, so I'm not. But I'm saying that it makes no sense to somebody that believes that God does not repent. Why? He doesn't do anything wrong. So why would he repent? And he does not do evil. And it's the same word evil as as you used in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, evil angels. It's the same word. So he repented of the evil that he thought to do Israel. And in this case, he's reflecting the the spirit of Moses towards the people. And Moses is the one that he's thinking these thoughts of, let's get rid of them. And this is why God says, I'll destroy these people and make of you a great nation. But it's a mirror of the soul of Moses showing him what he has planned and what he's thinking in his mind. And then Moses then responds and says, God, don't do this thing. And it brings out of him by him seeing a mirror of himself. It brings about this change. And this is why the Lord repented of the evil that he thought to do the Israel because it's Moses seeing himself turning his own hot turn. God's reflecting it back to him. Super powerful to see him. This is kind of similar to the story of Arjuna and Krishna or Arjuna and God in the battlefield where this comes from the Bhagavad Gita, which comes from the ancient Indian texts. And the Arjuna is basically this great warrior. And this is a story to teach us basically exactly what you're saying. You know, this came anywhere between, this text came anywhere between, depends on the scholars, you know, 1500 BC to potentially 4000, 5000 BC. But basically, the story is that Arjuna then goes out and sees all of his, you know, these are neighboring tribes. These are cousins, these are aunts, these are uncles, these are family and friends, right? But they have to have this great war, this great battle because they, you know, they're warriors and, you know, who's going to, you know, dominate and own the land and so forth. And Arjuna goes out and he sees all of these family members among them. And he has this conversation with God and he says, "How can you tell me to, you know, how can I live with myself knowing that I will kill, you know, my brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts and uncles and these innocent people, these family members? I would rather die, I would rather die in shame than to, you know, kill all of these people, even though I know it's my duty. This is my responsibility. And so God is talking to Arjuna. And basically, you know, almost as I see it almost as a mere is what you're saying is like this conversation, this reflection where Arjuna is coming to this realization through these questions and conversation of bearing and opening his own soul to the truth within. And, you know, so that's a really, that's a really fascinating example of what you're talking about, which goes back to, you know, ancient Indian texts as well, which, which to slightly on two minutes on kind of my background was, you know, I've studied and continue to study in depth, you know, multiple ancient texts and religions from, you know, the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita to Buddhist texts and Buddhist religions to Taoist and Taoism. Native Americans, I've spent many, many hours and ceremonies and conversations and spiritual discussions with multiple Native American tribes over the years and have, you know, and have spent time in Christian churches and Catholic churches and other, you know, various religions as I study and am looking for, you know, the my direct understanding and connection to God. And what I have found so fascinating is in all of these ancient traditions, every single one, whether it's Buddhism, it's Hinduism, it's the Vedas, it's these ancient traditions, you know, every single one of them portrays God as a loving God, portrays God as a compassionate God, portrays God as a, you know, all knowing, all compassionate, all loving God. And so I had that already kind of knowing this through my, through some experience I had early on, almost 20 years ago, and then through my own meditations and starting to know that for myself. And then I came across the Bible, you know, I thought, wow, there's, there's these interesting contradictions here. So this idea that you shared of maybe we're seeing a mirror of ourselves or the mirror of, you know, the characters in the Bible is very interesting, right? That's a fascinating way to look at it. But then the idea too of the, when you talked about, you know, you know, through Jesus is where we can really, you know, understand the truth because like Matthew 538, you have heard that it was said, I for an eye tooth for tooth, but I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them, the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt hand over your coat as well. So back to your point of, you know, Jesus even in so many opportunities to be a representation of, you know, condemnation and judgment and, and anger and so forth, even tells his disciples, turn to the other cheek if someone attacks you, right? Meaning do not fight back, right? This is, this is peace, this is peaceful, non-resistance as Gandhi taught, peaceful resistance as Gandhi taught. And then, you know, John 14, 6. So this is probably a conversation for another time, but I am the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through me. And there are so many examples of that same, you know, written in different ways where Jesus talks about, you know, believe in me, trust in me, follow me, do as I do. Through me is where you connect to the Father. Through me is how you become one with God and how I interpret that. And I, I have to, you know, pull up more passages to really back this up. But I've read them over the years is that when we do as Jesus did, when we live as Jesus did, when we do what he talks about in the Bible, right? We are compassionate, we are loving, we're forgiving, we are generous, we are caring, right? We are kind and forgiving. We follow Jesus that through Jesus, through his example is how we then become one with God, how we then are, you know, truly our highest selves, our highest potential. And I know in Christianity, there's this belief that you're born center, natural born center, and I will always be a sinner no matter what. And I don't believe that. I don't, I don't, I don't, judge anybody's beliefs in that. But I've seen in my own life and many others that we can continue to heal this part of ourselves and follow what Jesus taught and learn to, I'm not there yet, but eventually get to a place where we no longer sin, we no longer have sin within us, that we can perfect our souls just as Jesus taught us to do. He said, you shall do what I do and even greater things than these. He's telling us that by following him, that doing as he teaches that we too shall do, you know, these great things that we are, we can overcome sin. And to me, that is, you know, born in the image of God. God said, let us make man in our image after our likenesses of Genesis, right? But then you go further on and you see, you know, when John talks about John 1, 7, the same come from a witness to bear witness of the light that all men through him might believe he was not that light, but was sent to bear witness of the light. That was the true light which lights every man that comes to the world. He was in the world and the world was made by him and the world knew him not. He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name, believe on his name. So that's another one of those words that I researched, right? Believe, what does that mean? Does that just mean have faith or just believe that it's true? No, the real original meaning of believe is literally to follow, to put your trust in, to follow the example, right? It's like to not just believe that something's there, but to fully commit yourself to it. And so we believe in his name and we believe in him and what he does and teaches us, then he then he to become the sons of God. And so, you know, that might be a whole conversation for another Bible conversation. But to me, Jesus was the example, he was the leader, he was the teacher, he was showing us the way to God, do as I do, follow as I do, be as I do, and you too shall know God as I know God. And you may agree with that or not, but that's good. My perception, you know? No, I see it. I think the core thing and what I really, I think you're making such a powerful point around Christ showing us how to know God. And so, if you follow the actions of Christ and you followed the beliefs of how he interacted, even with people that really did deserve punishment, quote, unquote, in our minds, then you land at a very nonviolent view and it has a very ennobling effect. And strangely enough, it actually promotes something which I would refer to as, yeah, on that liberation. Because really, if you have everything within you and you don't have any problems, to me, I don't really think you need God or you don't need this study. But to me, I just haven't been out of skate my own condemnation and violence. And I know that some of it came through programming through false beliefs and Christianity. But I know that so much of it is not even connected to that. It was something that was there, like the inherent belief that punishment is due. I've seen that in just so many different cultures. And I see it deeply within me, regardless of religious texts. And so, to me, this gives people the ability to identify something, put their finger on a problem they actually have without realizing and then bring it to the fore and heal it. And that's why I think it's so powerful about this study because it's actually all about self-reflection saying, "This is the violence in me. Everything I thought about the judgment of God, of standing before God on a day of judgment and God saying, "I don't know if I like this guy." And I've got two beautiful boys, the three and five year old, and they're my world. And if they thought of me like that, that I was one day going to decide whether I wanted to keep them or not, it would just break my heart. I just couldn't even describe in words how much it would hurt me to think that they would think that about me. But it would make sense why we'd have these reoccurring images because it's naturally how we treat people. Look at the political debates and look at how people love to just tear apart the other side. And it's designed that way. It's low vibe frequency. It's really dark because it's all about saying, "You know what? We'd be better if we didn't have that guy. I wish that guy didn't miss. I wish we could take that guy out." And these things come so naturally to us, and I'm disturbed to see that within myself, but God can heal us of these things. And that's to me, Christianity has so much to offer. When I say Christianity, I mean Christ, because Christianity means a little Christ or a follower of Christ, that not the world religion that has been kind of espouses the name, many of which, you've got great examples. And that's one of the things I started to find. Wow, all this humanitarian work. Why is it all these Christian groups that are involved in this? You saw that out when we're out in Kenya together, and you see people responding. So there's a beautiful aspect there. So I'll give credit where it's due. And then you see this militant side where, why are they more likely sometimes to be calling down judgment on people, be harsh? But this wasn't the ethos of Christ. It wasn't the actions of Christ. But anyway, to say, to conclude the other point I was making about what you were saying, Christ was showing us how to be. And you can't go wrong. Any Christian would say, well, just you can't go wrong if you follow Jesus, follow his actions, follow his life, follow his teachings. And if you're confused about the Old Testament and you don't understand how it all fits, well, he's there to help you understand it all anyway. And that's direct revelation. So think about it this way. I could have people tell you about me, or like, let's say if your children want to know who you are, they didn't get to know who you are. And then you had people teach them about who you were. And then you even somehow, through some kind of telecommunication, were able to have me share with you teachings and words. And I was then also not a robot. And God is now not like automatic writing, controlling my mind. He's actually inspiring me. And it says that specifically in the Bible. It doesn't say that he basically takes over their hands and starts writing. He's inspiring them. And so they're writing under inspiration. That's why you see all these fascinating prophecies that came true to the tea. I think I showed you their prophecies on Christ. They were so accurate to a tea, things that couldn't, we're outside of Jesus control. You couldn't control that he would get pierced in his hands and feet. Why did it predict it in Psalm 22? What, you know, quotes the words, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Which he quotes then from the cross. And it says the garments are parted and sold. All of these different prophecies were in that one, even just that one chapter of Psalm 22 written a thousand years before Christ, as they did by the Dead Sea Scrolls, as then backed by, you know, actual language motifs and kings, different things that could only be known and written during those times and have no ability to be fabricated in a true historical sense, which is why it's not debated. So it has such tremendous ability to relay important facts. And yet you're getting, you're getting a message through a vessel. And so now how much more powerful if you have the person where you then now directly come to your children and say, Hey guys, this is me. And now if you now Trump, the actual revelation of Nathan, that your father with your son, your daughter Luna and your son, Osha, Osha. And then they now then just default and say, Well, you know what, I'm just going to go back to my other view that I had, and I'm just going to let this cancel out the view that I clearly have a view as I you hold me in your arms and you reveal to me who you are. And then I see you in the worst possible situation, the cross, the crucifixion. And look, you still are unchanging. And this is why you see chapters like John 10, or I think it's John 10 or 13, having loved his own that we're in the world, he loved them until the end. And that's such a beautiful passage because you say, you love them until when until he until it was too much. Nobody says until the end, meaning the end of his existence, he he breathed his last last breaths without condemning a soul ever during his whole life. And in the worst circumstance, they're laughing at him. He's naked. He's he's dying a death that, you know, the cross, the word excruciating comes from the word crucifixion to describe the amount of pain that he was experiencing, which then wasn't even matched by the emotional pain of being betrayed by his friends and and leaders. And you know, and and then to be you seal the conversation father, he, you know, why have you forsaken me? Or it actually says, my God, why have you forsaken me, which actually can refer to the rule is actually, which is interesting. Rule is why have you forsaken me? Because he actually never referred to his father as as my as God, he would refer to him as my father. And that's why you see father into your hands, I commit my spirit. But the loss of his relations, like that break with his father's love that was that that was the the anguish of soul that the Bible talks about. He's willing to do all this. He's being mocked in this. He never retaliates. And so if you cannot take this as the revelation of God's love to your soul and to realize that he never gives up on you, and that the words that are even in the Old Testament, which is, you know, everlasting love, everlasting mercy, his mercy is is new every morning. Everlasting, these words is alarm, which means without end, it can goes on and on and on. And there is no end to it. And then then you start realizing there's no end to this love. And so where does the end come from? It comes from you. It's it's where you decide I've had enough of this. And then God can't restrict you from your free will. And whatever you say, then comes back to you. And then you think that God is condemning you. And that's why the Bible seems so confusing because God is a mirror to your soul. So he repeats to you back what you are, you love the passage in Psalm 19 or 18 to the upright, I appear as upright to the pure, I appear as pure, but to the crooked, I appear as, or to the crooked or twisted, I appear as torturous. So you see in God what you are. So God is always trying to rescue us from that. And you'll see Christ even said, what I speak in darkness that treats you in light. And darkness is not talking about what he's talking about during the nighttime, tell people during the daytime that doesn't actually make any sense. Oh, yeah, what I speak in darkness that preaches you in light. I'll give you the passage. And no, what was the one about what was the passage for basically the mirror of if you see me as James 123, James 123 and Matthew 1026 is what I refer to you. And so you see these interesting passages, Matthew 1026, whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light, whatever you hear in the ear, preach from the housetops, do not feel, and then then he now illustrates what he's about to do, because he's speaking in darkness and then in light. You'll love this. And why would you do it? Why would you speak in darkness, which is, which is specifically described as satanic. If you look at, it's in actual Corinthians, acts that we would take them from light, darkness to light from the power of Satan unto God. So now, now light and darkness are defined as the power of Satan and then the power of God contrasted that we take them from darkness to light from the power of Satan unto God is, you know, so it gives you the rule to understand what it means. So what I speak to you in the power of Satan, like dark, violent, satanic, you know, concepts, you understand this in light. And then you say, why would you do this? And then he illustrates what he's about to do. And then he says, do not fear those that can kill the body, but him that cannot kill the soul, but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body and hell. So now, why is God telling us to fear now? Now, the next verse says, but do not be afraid because you, even a sparrow falls to your ground without your father. He will fall to the ground without your father noticing. Do not be afraid because you're of much more value than a sparrow. Do not be afraid. Why is he saying then to fear not? Be afraid. It's the mirror of your soul so that you can understand the judgment condemnation that you are under because it's your decree. It's coming from you. And so you will stand before that judgment, which does you, you know, judge not lest you be judged for whatever judgment you measure upon others, it will be measured upon you. It's coming from you. So you've got to deal with the problem. And this is why we, you look at somebody that's committing mass genocide. How do you think that they will stand before themselves on the day of judgment? The judgment that they've judged upon others then comes back to them in full force because it's coming from themselves and God can't save them from it because it's their choice. And that's where you really see the battle here is over the, over the soul and God trying to navigate with what people understand. Yeah, that's so powerful. And so that, you know, reminds me of Ephesians 431, let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice and be he kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. And then Matthew 614, for if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. And also, you know, when he's speaking to Jacob about people not honoring God, right, in Isaiah 43, he says, "I even I am he that bloteth out thy transgressions for my own sake and will not remember thy sins." So, you know, this, this idea that we from Old Testament, New Testament, there are so many examples of forgiveness and kindness. And no matter what we've done, you know, if, and there's an action there, right, if we forgive, we are forgiven. So it's not saying sit there and do nothing and continue being a bad person, right? It's saying forgive others. And to forgive others, if anybody's ever practiced forgiveness, it's very difficult to forgive others, especially when you haven't forgiven yourself. And when you forgive yourself, the powerful things that happen in your life and my own life. When I forgave those who I condemned, my own family members, things that I didn't understand when I was, you know, homeless on the streets, you know, addicted to drugs and alcohol. My mother kicked me out of the house and I, you know, tried, you know, going back to live with her and she couldn't handle me. She didn't know what to do with me. I mean, I was a wild, addict, 15-year-old kid that was, you know, in and out of jail and addicted to drugs. And so she, you know, no, I can't, I can't help you. And so I harbored that resentment until I was 19 years old, you know, didn't talk to her for years, changed my life, started committing myself to, to being healthy, to knowing God, to healing myself, my, my, my spirit. And when I forgave her and realized that it wasn't her, right, it was me forgiving her. It was this, it was my resentment that I held, my anger that I held, my sadness that I held towards her. It freed me, it freed me from that, you know, negativity within myself. So just as Jesus teaches and even as God says in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, you know, we have to forgive others. And when we do, we also are forgiven. When I forgave my own mother, I was forgiven. And like, think about that for a second as a metaphor. I was forgiven of that sin that I held inside myself. I literally heard this like explosion on the phone, like this electric shock on the phone and I felt this weight lifted off of me. And so I feel like there's a lot of very practical advice in the Bible like this that are saying, do these things and you will see what happens? Because as I've done them in my own life, and then, you know, Kisha, yours, I've shared her story many times where she forgave the babysitter who molested her child, you know, she, she didn't know about it till years later. And then she grew a breast tumor and she knew it was from when she found out about that babysitter, Melissa, her child, when she was much younger, when they were much younger. And then all of a sudden, like three months, she grew a breast tumor. She knew it was from that anger and resentment, not only towards babysitter, but towards herself. How could I allow this to happen under my own roof, you know, to my child? What a terrible person I am? Boom, breast tumor. She was smart enough to know. And so she forgave him and forgave herself. And in months, the breast tumor went away. Right. So it's like this divine power within us for healing. We know this with the cancer patients that we work with and the work that you do with cancer. And I've seen it so many times where when people, you know, forgive themselves, forgive others, dive into their spiritual practice and focus on healing the emotional traumas, then their body improves, their body heals, their body can even reverse cancer and other diseases. So I mean, these are all, you know, laid out in the Bible as well. But I want to ask this to you as well really quick is what if, here's a question I had, what if Jesus was never crucified, right? What if Jesus was never crucified? He knew he was going to be crucified, right? It talks about he not only knew that they would mock him and scourge him and spit on him and kill him, right? This is Mark. He knew for certain that they would crucify him. That's Matthew 2019. He knew it was coming. And I think he knew it needed to happen. And I think had it not happened, he would have been, he would have gone down as another teacher in history, like many other wise sages before him from India and Tibet and Thailand and all over the world that have had great impact in the world in different ways to their spiritual teachings. But without the crucifixion, I don't think we would have had such an explosion in, you know, Christianity all around the world and the Bible and all, you know, everything that came from that, you know, spreading all around the world. I don't think we would have that without it. So I think he knew that it needed to happen for his teachings to reach the world in such a massive way. That's my, that's my perception. It's amazing that you say that because I haven't heard many people come to that conclusion in that way. And for that reason, and I do believe that that is that that was God's, you know, wisdom and the ultimate, that's the ultimate love when you realize if that bullet wasn't even coming from God, that so it wasn't, it wasn't a death sentence that was against you. So imagine, right? So this is the typical understanding where God has a bullet, he's shooting it at you, Christ comes and takes the bullet instead, he intercepts and it, you know, goes through him. And what that does is it creates a, you know, this rep, you know, love for Christ for what he did, but then this disconnection with God, his father for why he would do this. You know, why would God do this to me? And so, you know, that belief has this, it's, but you can't convince somebody that it's not true because it's so deep in them. And because, you know, we all require penalties like this, you turn on a Jurassic Park film and you start realizing that these dinosaurs are like objects of their, their God's wrath manifested and they, they're punishing everyone for their sins. Like watch what happens. It's the, when, when they're greedy, when they're gluttonous, they're always the ones that are overweight, which is so cruel when you think about, hold on a second, this is how I, how much do you hear people, you know, judge and talk about each other and their, their body and their weight and you know, people with children, you gotta be really careful. You might have a reflection, you say that in front of your children. They, they start thinking that it's okay to value people differently based on their bodies. You know, it doesn't mean we can't be better and we talk about, you know, the challenge and we have to talk about it like a health thing. So we, we know what, what we're striving for, but, but if it's in a conversation of value, then that's, that's cruel. And, and so you see all this happen and people getting punished for all these things. And, and so then, then you flip it the other way. Now you see, okay, God knew that this was the thing that would touch the heart and it would do something for the human soul that nothing could and it would, it would pay the price. It would, it would meet the atonement, which is a fascinating word. So it's three words atonement is used for blood sacrifice. If you hear the word, you think, if you've heard it before, you think, okay, it's a, it's a word to denote sacrifice, blood sacrifice. But the word is three words atonement atonement. It's the same, a same root word for reconciliation. And so it's something that has a dual meaning. So in the, in the minds of people, it's like, it's a, it's a blood sacrifice. And through blood, we can now achieve the, the making right of things and it settles the score. And now everything's okay, right? Because it's the problems being dealt with. There's been a sentence. It's why you see cases where they can't find the murderer and then they will actually pin it on somebody else. And they know that it's, that's incorrect, but it's the cases go forward. You know, one case was the movie, Just Mercy with, Michael B. Jordan. And you've got Arthur McMillan, known as Johnny D, who, who was pinned for a rape and murder. And it wasn't him. And the people, you know, all the people basically you watch the movie or watch the documentaries. And it, they knew it wasn't him. And it, and he did get out eventually. But the society was basically just standing back going, well, you know, someone has to pay, green miles, an example where it's a fictitious film, but he has to pay. It was such a good story, by the way. That's one of the first, I'd say that's one of the first like thick books I ever read in my life. And I was, I was a young teenager. And I remember reading it in Bozeman, Montana, lived with my mom. And I think my younger brother was still living with us. I hadn't been kicked out yet. And I, I hadn't, you know, been as deep down that dark rabbit hole as, as I did, you know, a few years later. And I remember in that book was, I mean, that book still, the story still sticks with me today. Now the, the film is really good too, but the book, you know, was amazing. You know, in that, so anyways, if anyone hasn't read the green mile, I do recommend it. Yeah, and it's all about this substitutional atonement. Somebody, so atonement, blood sacrifice, or not, not necessarily the meaning of the word, because it's actually just two parties coming together. And, but, but in this context, absolutely blood sacrifice, and then substitution, so that somebody has to do it instead of because I can't pay my own debt. If I do, then I'm lost forever and I don't want that. So, so this death in my place, it, it is so beautiful because it meets you where you're at. And that's to me why it's caught wind because we've all got this inner knowing that there's something wrong. And then under our own system, there needs to be retribution, which to me is, it's the satanic concept. It's interesting why Christ is not referred to on the crosses, like a lamb, a white lamb on an altar. It's actually referred to as a snake. John 3 14, as Moses lifted it up, the serpent in the wilderness, so shall also the son of man be lifted up. So, he's referred to as a serpent on a pole, which is crazy to think about. Why, why, why are you referring to yourself as like a serpent, which is like the source of all evil from Genesis? And, and, but when you look at the cross and you see someone lacerated, he got 39 lashes twice, no flesh on his torso with that kind of, you know, with a Roman scourge with metal in it to rip your flesh. And, and you see him on, on the cross, you know, weeping. And you realize that it's evil, like that is evil. That's not justice. It's satanic justice. And that's what that is teaching. And, and it's the mirror of the soul. And so the serpent was actually made out of brass. Brass is not a naturally occurring metal, which is if you look at the sanctuary, it says thy wayo God is in the sanctuary that is filled with teachings. It's the holy and most holy place of filled with gold and silver as the metals and then some wood. All, all God made, but the ultra sacrifice is not made out of the God made metal. It's made out of brass, which is a bronze, which is an alloy of zinc and copper. And the first mirrors are also made out of brass. So when you commit a sacrifice, you see your own reflection. You see your own soul. It's telling you what you are. So you look at the cross and you see, this is what I required. And he's now facing the penalty that I put upon him. And this now is, and because now I can see this, this is the, this is my way through salvation, because it's meeting me where I'm at, but not because God needed a death to save me, because I needed a death to save me. And this is why you see all the passages to talk about reconciliation. None of them talk about God reconciling with men. It all talks about man reconciling with God, which means that we were the offended party, the one that needed to have the war that we had reconciled, which was in, you know, you look at the passage and say, when we were enemies, not when God was our enemy, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son. So that was what caused the human heart to then respond to God. And then now the beautiful thing, this thing's happening together all at once. So that's the, that's the darkness, the, the, the captive, the need for that penalty to be settled in my own psyche and conscience as, as I have now mandated it. Now the same, now what's happening at the same time is God's love and forgiveness is being extended, irrespective of the cruelty that's been inflicted on him. And, and then that love is now being extended to, that's to me, I see myself in this picture. And so on a personal note, Nathan, like I absolutely see myself in this picture and it, and I see myself as being an offender, not as innocent bystander. And, and, and then you'd say, well, you know, that sounds pretty self loathing or, you know, why you never did that. And, you know, you, you do good things out there. You know, why would you associate yourself with that? And it's like, well, you know, you read an eulogy and it's all the positive things, but it's, I know the other things, the things that have gone in my head, my mind, the difficulties, the heartbreak that the poor choices have made that people have hurt. And so, you know, God is now extending that forgiveness to me in this situation where I really don't think I deserve it at all. And so it's taken things to the breaking point and I'm loved and accepted. Now, if I can accept it here, this is the, this is the only opportunity. So the cross is now why it's the, it's the centerpiece of Christianity because it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the thing that makes you realize that God loves and accepts you and that there's no restriction to his love. And you see yourself as in, in this story and embraced and loved. And in the truest sense, now when you see that God didn't require the sacrifice and you realize that it came from yourself, Christ talked about this, he says, to the Pharisees, go and learn what this means. They were, they were saying tax collectors and sinners deserve to be, and you've gotten rid of basically that was the, the meaning of what they're saying. He says, I, I designed mercy and not sacrifice and go and learn what, yeah, I, I, I deserve mercy and go and learn what this means and I'll have mercy and not sacrifice. So it was mercy instead of sacrifice. That's the way of God. And anyway, so you, you then start to see yourself as up, you know, caught up in this beautiful picture and realize that your forgiveness is, is there for you. And, and this was the healing power. I, if I was to tell you one thing that healed me more than anything else when it came to sexual addiction, it was this. And I, you know, I was, I was the guy that, you know, nothing could really walk. And because, and I, I didn't have the addiction where I was like, it was like an everyday thing. But when low points would hit, I couldn't stop my thoughts from racing in that way, looking for comfort. I went, and when my wife had sexual trauma and that she withdrawed withdrew from me sexually. And then I felt so rejected. And, and that withdrawal was, you know, often underscored by very, you know, outbursts of anger and things like this. And then so I feel, well, you know, I need to, I need to find peace and comfort. And so, and this really highlighted the fact that I didn't have that in God. And then, then going back and realizing, man, I am just so deeply loved and cherished by God. And, and that I'm not under this penalty that I thought I was under that was causing me to explode and kind of lose my temper at times. And, and yeah, sure, sometimes do I lose my temper? Yeah, sure. Sometimes things come up, but I can tell you it's not in day. And I can tell you that, you know, my wife would tell you that that I'm a different person. And that I know your wife really well, I'll ask her if your sexual addiction has truly been healed or not. She'll tell me again. She's actually just came inside the corner over here so she can hear you. Hey, Laurie, what's happening? So, yeah, I'll get the truth. We'll get the truth one way or another. Well, yeah, exactly. But no, I look, husbands or partners, or whatever can easily keep secrets like that from their, their wives. So you really only can ever really fully know within yourself. And, and so, right? You know what I mean? No, it's true. And so I know we have two minutes left. So just to kind of wrap up, I think the one thing I want to, I want to say is, you know, I encourage anyone, you know, all of you tuning in listening to this now is to, to ask yourself these questions, to meditate and, and pray to God and ask for guidance on these things we spoke about and see where in your own life, maybe you feel the need to, to sacrifice yourself to that there is this sacrificial part of you that is driving your life, that, that there is this deep-rooted subconsciousness, subconscious ideas and beliefs that are driving your life to either continue, you know, sinning and, and harming others and harming yourself, even in subtle ways. And that this subconscious belief that we, we cannot control that. And it is, you know, embedded deeply within us because I know from my own experience, these are things that we can become masters of, that we can heal within ourselves, that we can through Christ and through God and through, you know, these divine teachings, even these teachings, like I said, that I've studied from ancient traditions all around the world. They teach the very, very, very similar things. And in fact, the Vedas teach a science of how to enlighten our minds to a point where we no longer have a single negative thought or sinful thought. And there are many people who have gotten to that level and I believe the stories that I've read, one of those stories, it's a wonderful story I highly recommend people read is the autobiography of a yogi. It's about Paramahansa yoga, Nanda's life, who came here to the West from India in the mid 1900s. He basically brought yoga here to the West and his life is an incredible story. I mean, and the teachers that taught him Sri Yukta Swar has a really great explanation about Genesis and Adam and Eve and that whole, I won't get into it right now, but you can look it up or he talks about in his book, you know, it gives you a different perspective and kind of similar to what you're talking about, Jonathan, but I think even deeper in some regards, where this man was incredibly wise and was able to explain the deeper symbolic meanings of Genesis and the creation story and Adam and Eve that I think is so profound. But, you know, I encourage people tuning in. I mean, don't take our word for it obviously and discover this for yourself, meditate on it, prayer, you know, pray to God, ask for guidance, reflect and see in your own life where your love for God and your desire to be your highest self, your best self, your truest self, your pure self, your Christ-like self, right, as Christ was teaching us. Remember, Christ is not Jesus' last name, right? He was Jesus of Nazareth and back then, no good things came out of Nazareth, which was very interesting, right, so it was very quite the paradox for people to go, what the Messiah came from Nazareth? It's coming from Nazareth, that doesn't even make sense, nothing good comes out of Nazareth, but that Christ is the divinity, the God expression of Jesus and the Christ-like life that Jesus led and brought to us to show us the way to God. And so that's how I perceive that. And every day, I'm certainly not perfect and make mistakes and have negative thoughts, but I can tell you 20 years ago until now, I have, you know, overcome so many things and I have less negative thoughts never before and I live an amazing life now and I've healed many addictions and, you know, I've transcended so many of these subconscious beliefs that were sabotaging my life and there's still more to do and more traumas to heal, but I'm a testament that it's possible to get out of poverty and homelessness and drug addiction and sex addiction and alcohol addiction and cigarette addiction and processed food addiction and negative thinking addiction. I was a terrible, terrible person. If anyone sinned more than anybody else, it was definitely me. And to, you know, overcome that to where I am now in my life, it's a testament to literally what Jesus teaches us how to be like Christ, how to be Christ-like. And so that's what I'm trying to do every day. It's beautiful. Thank you, Nathan. What a beautiful testimony and, you know, I see that in you and I'm grateful for the help that you gave recently out in Kenya, the fact that you're in for the long while and that's rare and so thank you for your heart for people and I see it strongly and clearly and appreciate your friendship, brother. Yeah, thank you, brother. I love talking with you, man. I learn from you every time and, you know, I think the first conversation we had like this was, I was in San Diego a few years ago and we had a phone call and I know if you remember and I was even a few years ago, I was reluctant to kind of, I actually was very interested. No, I wasn't reluctant then. I was reluctant before that to go into deep conversations about Jesus and the Bible. But the time you and I spoke, I was very excited about it, right? And I was just like, I just ask you questions and share ideas and pick your brain. I realized, wow, John is brilliant when it comes to, you know, understanding the Bible and seeing it from an incredibly higher perspective. So, dude, I love our time together. I appreciate this conversation deeply and I look forward to doing it again with you. Look forward to it too, brother. Thanks for your time, Nathan. All right, take care. Thank you for listening to the Nathan Crane podcast. Please make sure to subscribe and share this on social media. Then head over to Nathan Crane dot com for your free ebook. So when we're talking about, you know, what are these underlying cause and conditions of these chronic diseases? Cancer, diabetes, heart disease, they all have very similar, if not, identical causes. And that's the thing is when we get to the root cause of these diseases, we can not only prevent these diseases from ever happening, but empower our bodies to heal from them. In every one of our cells, we have tens in hundreds of thousands of chemical reactions that are happening every second that are cycling back and forth and like sort of a yin and yang. And, you know, for me, the soul, soul's purpose is evolution. It doesn't care about comfort, it cares about evolution. And so I think so long as we are following our soul, then we will evolve. And I think what sometimes blocks us from living our purpose, from manifesting that next level of our expression is we have not evolved. There is also a time for letting go all the expectations and relax and just breathe and be grateful for what you have achieved. [MUSIC]