Special guest Aaaman Patel (Aaman Patel (@APSportsNews_) / X) joins The Last Wicket to talk through an eventful phase of cricket in the USA - the recent T20 World Cup and the ongoing second season of Major League Cricket. We talk about his journey to becoming a commentator in American cricket, the US team's campaign in the World Cup, the outlook for cricket in the USA, and much more.
The Last Wicket
Future of American Cricket with Aaman Patel
He heads back, he heads back, he stands back, and stands back, and the end is hilarious. Hello and welcome to The Last Wicked. I'm your host Benny, thank you for joining us. And on today's episode, you're going to be talking about cricket in America, specifically cricket in America over the last two months. It's been quite eventful. We had the T20 World Cup and then the ongoing Major League Cricket featuring some of the best talents in the world, both at the World Cup and at the Major League Cricket. And so to talk about what all of that means for the present and future of cricket in America, I have my longtime co-host Mike and a special guest, Amund Patel, or Amund, as he did reminding us before the recording, a presenter, commentator, and keen follower of US Cricket, Amund, welcome to The Last Wicked. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. I know we've tried to set this up for a while now, but it's good that we finally got this going. Right. We finally made it work. Now, Amund, as the kids say, I'm not familiar with your game. So talk to us a little bit about your journey, as far as how you got to where you are, how you got interested, and what all you have seen in your, I guess, your journey as a commentator, and just being involved in cricket here at the US. Yeah, I think like most kids my age, the 2011 World Cup was kind of a big deal for my dad who grew up in India, immigrated here, and remember watching that with him. And that was kind of my first introduction to high-level cricket and really diving into it. I always knew I loved sport and wanted to work in sport. And then USA had a series at Church Street Park, which is just a mile from my house. And in 2018, it was a qualifiers that had Panama, Belize, and Canada, along with states involved in that. I got a volunteer. I was part of the youth team at that point in time, and I got to see kind of USA for the first time in person. And that kind of just took my interest to a whole nother level. You'll hear me talk about Stephen Taylor's 22, and then I'll final over against United City in Canada to win a game here at Church Street Park all the time. Anytime I can bring it up, I'll bring it up, because it was probably the most instrumental moment in my life. And then from that point, just wanted to stay involved. So when we had the exhibition in minor league in 2020, I reached out to the local team because we were going to have one and said, "Hey, I'd love to do some commentary work for you guys." And they, for whatever reason, agreed to let me get on, and they haven't been able to take me off ever since then. So I've done the initial three seasons of minor league, and then this season of Major League, I've been fortunate enough to be a part of the broadcast. I was at the World Cup last month as an incoming host, the emcee for the grounds. I was in Barbados and in Florida, was there for the final, so I had a lot of family members who are very jealous of that moment of being over there. I definitely got a lot of text from a lot of family back in India. But it's been cool just following U.S. cricket and trying to just stay involved in cricket. I love the sport, and I love what I do. So it's been pretty cool to kind of blend the two together into this. You know, hearing you talk about all of that makes me a little jealous, because when I moved to the U.S. back in 2010, I was thinking, I'm going to be very heavily involved in U.S. cricket. I was like looking up information on the website, thinking maybe I can volunteer like an empire or whatever. You know, do whatever courses they want me to do, but of course, my life took a completely different track, and so I never got to be involved the way I ever thought I would be. But one of the most interesting things you kind of mentioned was how, you know, like small moments like a game happening close to where you are, or because of your immigrant background, you know, we have done so many episodes on this podcast about how does cricket get popular in the U.S. and trying to figure out, especially, you know, homegrown cricketers becoming part of the U.S. team. So I'm curious if, would you say your experience is unique in terms of how you fell in love with the game, is that something that you think can be replicated by, let's say, kids who are just almost always exposed to baseball and, you know, even soccer, for instance, even though it's not as popular, but baseball, football, and soccer, and then suddenly they're exposed to a game of cricket, do you think it's still possible where they get inspired by a certain moment of brilliance, or by a certain team, and take up with cricket the way you did? I think absolutely as possible, you know, like I said, a lot of kids my age who do come from, you know, immigrant households fell in love with cricket because of that 2011 World Cup, but I've known a lot of folks in my time trying to talk cricket in school, who I showed them a clip or I showed them, you know, I took them to a practice or something when I was playing, you know, youth cricket here, and they found love with it, I have friends in college who I showed the game and they're asking me a whole bunch of questions, they got a willow subscription just for the World Cup or they got it for a beige league. So there's, I think, the beauty about people in America is that they love sport, it doesn't matter what it is, you know, pickleball is just taken through the roof, I have so many friends who now play pickleball just because, you know, it's something they can do and the access is there. So I think the more you give people in the stage access to cricket, whether that's playing it, whether that's viewing it, the more they'll pick up on it and the more they'll want to be part of it. So I definitely think it is a replicable story and something that can definitely progress and kind of expand from there. Yeah, one of the things I really enjoyed in the few MLC games that I watched was seeing a lot of Americans with no prior knowledge of the game, they just heard there's, you know, cricket happening over there and they wanted to come and take a look and bringing the families with them. So all of that is fun stuff. But Mike, why don't you take the lead? Sure. I'm on firstly, thanks for being here. I want to talk about a little bit about the World Cup. Obviously, the World Cup was held partly in the US. The big headline was, of course, how to associate nations or, you know, lesser-known nations punched above their weight. The US, of course, beating Pakistan, Ireland, Canada, making it all the way through the Super8s and they did a pretty good job competing with South Africa there as well. And then, of course, Afghanistan, making it all the way to the semis. A word on the US campaign, what did you think overall? And then maybe, you know, something on the Super8s as well. Obviously, you saw a bunch of those games live as well. Yeah, I think for the US campaign, opening night was kind of the big night for a lot of us. We love US and Canada games for whatever reason. There's always something dramatic that happens if you talk to someone who's followed it for a while. Like I said, in 2018, before even the 22 runs ever chased by Stephen Taylor, there was a super over Canada one just three days before that. They went to Antigua in 2021 and US won by getting three off the last ball because Canada thought they'd won the game. They threw the ball up in the air, didn't have it. And Ali Khan and Russi Theron just ran it all the way around. So something crazy always happens. So you knew something special could happen. And to see Aaron Jones play the way he did after kind of a poor run of form. It was great to see him bet that well. And Andra Schles, who a lot of us have kind of dubbed the best domestic bet in the country over the last four years to see him play. That well was terrific. Saurab just did Saurab things. Saurab didn't surprise me at all of what he did against Pakistan and taking those wickets. It's just he's a cool customer. He gets the ball to move and he can be deadly on any surface. And he's just elevated his game. He was US captain. And then since honestly moving off the captain see he's just worked on himself. He's gotten I think more fit. I think the most fit he's been in his entire career is really reinvented his lifestyle. And you know, he's doing great things now majorly cricket. So it was cool to see those people that you've seen for the past couple of years really work on themselves on just how so obviously coming from South Africa. It's a new task, right? You move over here. You get four years of trying to learn an American ecosystem and play cricket in a place that cricket isn't really well known. I got like Nithish Kumar who moved down from Canada represented Canada at just 16 in a World Cup and then comes down here and see him have some success was awesome. So I was pleasantly obviously the Pakistan win was probably the biggest win that we had. And I remember I was in Barbados working a game. I don't remember who was playing but any time we got into the crowd, I would just take on my phone. I would check. And I remember when Nithish Kumar hits the four to send us to the super over. I kind of squealed and like through my phone. Someone has a video of it somewhere. But I genuinely just squealed through my phone and I was I was so happy in that moment to get for him to hit those runs and then to win the super over we made a grand announcement in the stadium. I think they only did that because I was there kind of just all happy and whatnot. And then obviously the game against India was was really close. I was watching that in the hotel room and when Saurabh took those the wickets of Goli and Rohit Sharma, it was okay game on here. And you know, I think if Shai and Jangir is on the boundary and Rishabh want gets out there, it could be another game. But you know, played are close enough. The run rate was good enough. You get the rain out against Ireland and you're on to the super rates. I got to see the U.S. it play in the Kensington Oval, which I never thought I would say, you know, against a major nation in a World Cup that those are just words you wouldn't have imagined. I got to say that on my birthday to I turn 21 on the day they play that Super 8 game in the Kensington Oval. So that was kind of a cool moment for me. It was just a surreal World Cup and it really felt like a World Cup. I think coming off of the ODI World Cup in 2019, that was an 18 World Cup. They started to build into some of these larger competitions and to have these 20 teams and the associate nations get some games. Not even it wasn't just the U.S. that was a team that was making some noise. Obviously Canada beating Ireland, but talk about what Nepal did against South Africa. They pushed them to that, you know, kind of the last ball. And, you know, there was a lot of really good cricket that was played. So I was excited as a person who's followed the associate cricket for a long time to see those associate teams really compete and then I get a couple wins here and there. You know, I just wanted to add a little to what I was talking about because when the U.S. team played their first game against Canada, I told I told my wife and father-in-law because, you know, both are Americans and they have very limited knowledge about cricket. I told them this should be the only win that USA is going to have, which, because I always keep my expectations slow. You know, obviously I won the U.S. team to do well, but I was telling them it's probably the only game that they're going to win. And, of course, after that, you know, when the Pakistan game, I was watching it live and I was like, no way, this cannot be possible. This cannot be possible. And this Pakistan just crumbled in that last over and in the super over. And so, obviously that got not just my family talking, but, you know, the U.S. media, you know, and social media talking, people who had no idea about cricket, we're talking about like, wait, there's a cricket woke up and the U.S. is playing in it and all these tweets and TikTok videos started coming up. So, in that way, I feel like, regardless of what happened after that, I feel like just by winning the Canada game, sure, but especially the game against Pakistan, because my brother-in-law was like, did Pakistan win a woke up recently? Like, are you telling me the American cricket team beat a woke up like a previous woke up winner? And I was like, I mean, it happened a while ago, but yes, technically it's true. So, you know, just by their performance, they got people talking about the game. And so, regardless of how, I feel like by the time the Super AIDS came, they became kind of ran out of steam, maybe those of the quality opposition or the pitches, whatever it was, they kind of, I feel like they ran out of steam at the end, but they got people talking about cricket in the U.S. And I think it's interesting to see how it goes from here because I don't know how many more games, how many more international like against, you know, the top teams, how many games that the U.S. team will get to play before the next woke up. Yeah, I kind of hope, like you said, it got people talking. There were so many random Instagram profiles that just had videos about U.S.A.'s winning in cricket and it was dubbed as the greatest upset ever. I don't know if that's true. I think there's been some greater upsets in cricket, but it was a great upset, right? It wasn't something you would expect. And like you mentioned, I hope that it's kind of an audition tape of saying to these bigger nations, you know, when they go toward the West Indies, hey, come play a warm up game against the U.S.A. like a lot of teams do with Ireland when they go to play in English series. Hey, come over here. We'll get a couple of games in Dallas. We'll play against a quality team that will really warm you up to what the conditions will be like. And so I hope it kind of snowballs from there. And I think now the ball has been pushed into some of the full members court of, hey, look, we've done all that we can do. We've showed you that we're a team that can compete. We can beat any, you know, you can beat a full member nation on any given day. You just got to come over here and play us. And so now it's up to the full members to kind of say, okay, you know what, we'll go down there. We'll play and we'll support cricket in the States. Yeah, I have to say I was at the India versus U.S.A. game at NASA, iconic cricket stadium. And the moment I realized that the expectations are going to be higher now for the U.S. team going forward was there was a guy sitting about like two rows behind me. He was an American and an American cricket fan. And so when the U.S. team started batting, obviously the pitch, we can talk about the pitch later, but you know, it was kind of slow scoring, right? Especially in the first 10 overs. The fan, he was increasingly getting frustrated with his batters. He was like shouting at the players like, come on, Steven, get, get going. We need some sixes. Come on. You can't let them control you. And I was like, this is an American sporting experience transplanted into cricket and I'm loving it. So I hope that continues. I think it's a good science. You can get the fans so passionately invested in the game. That's only going to be great. I also wanted to say just a couple of things about on the back of what the man was saying, you know, when I watched three games in Barbados, one was India, Afghanistan, and then two U.S. games and all of the superates. And one of the things that I did not think would happen is I would be, you know, pretty affected by the national anthem going on. U.S. is my adopted country and I've lived here 11 years, so I've never been too sentimental about it. But to see that happening as he put it at a major stage and a superates and a woke up against the likes of England and West Indies, it was just amazing. And particularly the game against the West Indies, I think the atmosphere was just amazing. Being a night game, of course, the home team being there, all of that added to it. So that definitely felt like, you know, a big moment where, you know, at the start of the podcast, we told you this is this was always meant to be an Indian cricket podcast with covering other topics. But I in the last two, three years, we've turned more and more to associate cricket to women's cricket and all of that. And I do feel that, you know, I definitely want to constantly follow what's happening and then whether it's the Major League, whether it's the U.S. team. So it definitely felt like a pivotal moment from that perspective. And the other thing that's probably worth mentioning is it's always the quality of cricket that helps get more fat. Like, it's obviously great to have a win, you know, over Pakistan. But one of the things that I remember, Peter de la Pina, when he came on our podcast, he said was the ashes 2005 was when he started watching. And he said it was such a, you know, gripping contest throughout those five tests that he just could not stop watching. And here he is, he's made a career out of it. So I do think that just more close competition, close games will, will, you know, like your Stephen Taylor 22 run story will be, will go a long way in pulling those sports fans who are open to the idea of cricket. Yeah, 100%. Go to your point about the anthems. I remember when they played the U.S. anthem against the West Indies. And I was just like, I had chills, you know, I'm red blood American born here. But I've never been, you know, the kind of person is like, Oh, you know, national anthem, that's our song. But hearing it there was just like, it was just a different feeling. There's a sense of pride that I kind of never felt before anywhere, even, you know, I've been to an NFL game. I've been to minor league baseball games. I've been to a bunch of college sporting events, working in as fans. But the national anthem and that and those two games down in Barbados were just hit on a level I hadn't felt before. So yeah, it was, that was a pivotal moment for sure. And to your point also, the close games, they keep you hooked because you're like, okay, you're invested. And as a sports fan, you just, you want a close game when you don't have a team, you're like, okay, I just want the game to be close, right? And so even when your team is playing now, you're your heartstrings are getting tugged at and you're invested, right? If it's just a blowout, it's, it's whatever, right? You can kind of watch in the background. You don't really, you don't live and breathe it. But when you have those close games and you have a super over every single ball, you just hooked your ref, if you're not watching it live, you're refreshing scorecards. And if you're watching it live, you're watching through your fingers, you're biting your fingernails, whatever it is, there's always that moment of you're just, you're so invested. And that close games is, I think, make, make sports fans want more. And to your point, I think the more you have those, the more you're going to see people start to invest. Absolutely. I guess we've obviously come off a high of the World Cup. The Major League is already underway, which is, which is great. You know, there's already, there was already all this momentum. So it's actually perfect that it started, you know, pretty soon after the World Cup. But where does the U.S. cricket go from here? Obviously, there's the Olympics, which we're going to host in the LA edition in 2028. Where do you as a keen follower of U.S. cricket see the most immediate need being? Just taking more international matches. You know, before the World Cup, we hadn't played an international T20 in about two years. You know, last time we played one in home soil was in 2021 against Ireland. So, you know, and it doesn't have to be against a full member every time, right? It can be, let's play Canada at least once a year, if not twice a year. Let's play, you know, if we can get Ireland to come over, if we can go to Ireland, let's go get them to play with us, you know, whoever you can just get to play is what's needed. I think, you know, we had cricketers like a Cheyenne Jahangir who suffered from that. He had a terrific 2023, and then no international cricket was played between 2023 and 2024. He fell out of form. If he's playing cricket for that period of time, I think he's in the team and making an impact because he was so good in 2023. It almost just felt like a foregone conclusion that he was going to have a good 2024, but you fall out of form when you don't play. So, you know, you'd hope to see the team be able to get scheduled more and the board scheduling more and working more with other countries, whether that is the West Indies. Hey, Wendy's come play us when teams go to the West Indies, come play a warm-up game. Just get the guys in the squad an opportunity to play. I also think it's a point now of really investing in the young talent we have because we have a lot of it. You know, I would have liked to see, like, a Sytheja Mukamala part of the World Cup squad. Wouldn't have played, but he's a guy who scored an international 100, an ODI international 100 in USA's biggest chase. So, it was a must-needed 100, and he scored, and for my money, I played a lot of cricket with him. He's the best young man in the country. And, you know, give him more opportunities to get exposure and play. Get a guy like Sanjay Krishnamurti back in the rotation. What he's done in Major League has been terrific. Get Uli Shake back in the rotation. Yassa Muhammad, the young leggy, will get him in the rotation as well. There's a lot of really good young cricketers that if you continue to not have these international games, you let them slip through the crack. You know, guys like Rahul Jadiwala or Vatsul Vagella who have had some international success or have made international debuts, who haven't been called back in a while, get them involved, get them in. Obviously, you still have your own just tosses of the world, and you still have your your main core, but get some of these young guys in push because in 2028, you never know who's available, who's not, but you have a bunch of 20, 21, 22-year-olds who are there ready to play and have extreme talent. So, play more international matches and get those young guys in experience because 2028 is coming around the corner. So, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on my opinion. So, I feel for cricket to grow in the U.S. and I feel that attempts to grow the game in the U.S. has been going on for decades now. Many people have come and tried, maybe succeeded to some extent, maybe failed, but I feel like for the first time in the last few years, there's some genuine hope. And my opinion is that to build on this, especially the successes in the T20 World Cup, maybe not just the U.S. team, but many of the other countries who don't really get to play as many games against, you know, the test-playing nation, so to speak, T20 format is probably the way to go, you know, to grow the game. It's probably a tad unrealistic to think, okay, let's, you know, introduce all three formats, you know, tests, ODIs and T20s. I think tests are probably a non-starter because outside of the, you know, probably four or five test-playing nations, it's really struggling in other countries. The ODIs are probably a good in-between, but even that takes up a lot of time and resources. T20 format just seems to be like the perfect, you know, format for the modern era, especially with competing all, you know, all different sports competing for eyeballs and interest. I think T20 is the best or a possible way to make the game grow in the U.S. What do you think? Yeah, I 100% agree. You know, it's kind of been a statement of the USA that they want to be a full member, but only playing white ball cricket. And I think there's a lot of countries who want to fall into that category. And, you know, the T20 format, it's easy to sell, right? It's exciting. There's hits, there's, there's wickets. There's something always happening, right? Versus in, you know, test cricket, especially, I love test cricket. I love watch. I'm a fast baller. I get to move away a little bit in the local league. So I like watching guys swing the ball. But, you know, if you're not a cricket nerd, you're probably not going to fall in love with test cricket. Now, I know a lot of baseball fans who actually enjoy test cricket because it's more like baseball in the sense of it's more pitching dominated baller bowling dominated. The batters have to really work for runs. But the T20 formats and easy cells, you get people to come out to a T20 game because you're not investing five age, you're investing a couple of hours. And that's where the money is. So I agree 100%. And I think what the genius of minor league was, which is a subset of major league is it's a T20 tournament that happens during the summer happens in most states or 26 teams. And you get individual cities and towns to kind of develop a culture of cricket. So now you get got people who might have never heard of cricket, but they live in Philadelphia and near extant park. And they watch the Philadelphiaans most weekend. So they just kind of come in, it's usually free entry, and you watch cricket, right? The morsel rafters that are here, people who have never seen cricket, one guy came in with his camera was taking pictures and then got hired by the team to be the team photographer. So there's these, there's this ability now for minor league cricket that because it's localized, you get these people who don't really know about it. There's not a lot of stake you can come in, come out, you're not really investing a whole lot of money to come watch it. But you're getting a community behind cricket. So now when there's games in Morrisville, those same fans who didn't pay anything to get into minor league will pay the 15 will pay the 20 to 30, the 50 bucks to come to a major league game. So the t20 format, I absolutely agrees the way that the game is going to grow. And I think what ace major minor league have done is setting up those little hubs of cricket to make sure there's that interest around the country has been really good over the past four years. The one caveat to that I will add is I do think there's potential in desperate. I don't financially, it's obviously a little bit harder to pose that, but the one thing I've always felt is Americans love golf, for example, and they watch multi-day golf tournaments. So I sometimes feel that if they can watch that, they can definitely watch multi-day cricket. And I do feel that often, you know, from a marketing perspective, cricket does pretty badly when it comes to desk cricket. They will even big cricket fans like ourselves will often say, Oh, I don't know if I expect people to get into, you know, test cricket because it's multi day and this and that. But I do think like with day night tests coming in, with potentially four day tests coming in in the near future, there's a lot more potential. But I definitely agree that t20 is the way to start and spread the word for now at least, at least in nations like the US. The one other sort of caveat that I will, so one other question that I have had in mind is you talked about Sanjay Krishnamurti, some of the other young talents. What I've always had a struggle with is obviously US cricket is giving all these contracts to the Unmukchan, the Andrei Goss, you know, these really talented players from outside of the US. And part of their contract as I once interacted with somebody who got one of these contracts and they mentioned one of the part of the contract is that they have to go and teach kids cricket as well over the weekend, which is great. You know, these kids are learning from the best at a young age and that's really good. But I guess what I'm still struggling with is where's the pathway for these younger talents and that grassroots level of development. What are your thoughts on that, Amman? And how can you ask cricket pivot to make sure it's, you know, obviously having international games is great. And the current set of 25, 30 people will get a lot of exposure. And how do we make sure those hundreds below, which have the potential to rise to that next level, they're not left behind? Yeah, that's always been the biggest question. I know a lot of, you know, obviously playing youth. I've had a lot of people that, you know, were really talented and then didn't make the under 19 team or aged out of the under 19 team and then never saw cricket again, left it alone, because there's no, there was no money to make, right? So you need that in between level and you need a grassroots system, as you mentioned. So I think minor league has kind of bridged the gap of that in between level. You see a lot of kids who played under 19 but haven't quite made the jump to the US team, playing in these minor league teams and getting opportunities to learn from the best. I think obviously the easy answer is introducing to schools and get it in that way. And you know, there's more, it's harder than just saying, oh yeah, we're just going to introduce in the schools, right? There's all these policies, procedures you have to go through. But I think that you see a lot of hubs of cricket of youth cricket in particular, big youth leagues happening in certain areas. And more so in North Carolina, there's a big one in particular. In California, there's two or three that are pretty popular up in the Northeast in the New Jersey area. There's one that's really big. So you get more of those to kind of pop up. And you know, I think as you tend to invest in the young, the young group, you then look to, okay, how do we just kind of, for kids who, you know, cricket is expensive, right? I think that's one of the biggest barriers. It's expensive to buy a bat and pads and the shoes if you're playing on turf and things like that. It's an expensive sport to get into. Like most sports are. So how do you reconcile that? Well, you go ahead and you do what cricket heroes has done in the USA where it's basically, they have a kit that they just kind of drop off. And then the kids will just kind of play a little diamond game where they hit the ball, they kind of run bases almost. They have wickets, four wickets, they throw it to one of the batters, they hit, they rotate, they run around, and it's kind of a makeshift game. So you get more people involved, everyone's doing something. And it's plastic bats, it's a tennis ball. So you're not having to invest a lot of money. So you get more of those programs going, you go out and it would kind of be on those local people in places. So whether that's USA cricket, sending, you know, having a local division for different hubs and sending them out to rec centers or sending them to, you know, when they schools will have kind of a physical education conference and they're like, okay, what can we do? What can we introduce? Getting involved in those like, hey, here's a plastic set of cricket, bat, balls, stumps, and here's how you play and here's what you can do and here's the benefits of it. So doing things like that is going to help the grassroots level. And then I think it's just providing more opportunities past the youth level, past the under 19 level, because that's where we lose the most cricketers in the States. If you ask me is that once they get to school, once they get to college, it's now all right, I can, you know, I can try to do this cricket thing, but I have this, you know, internship with a really good company and but I can't play cricket. Well, I have to go with this internship because I have to think about how am I going to make money in the next five years, right? I have to move out. I have to go through this next stage of life. So minor league and then the other leagues that are popping up will help bridge that gap. There's no perfect answer. There's no perfect solution, but you just need the right people in the right places. I think Ace has a great group of people, Justin Gill in particular, he has just a lot of ideas, a lot of solutions, and he's made things lurk over the last four years. So he says, hey, this is what we're going to do. I kind of back him to get it done. So yeah, I think if you can get it into these, these rec centers into schools through plastic sets, then you get people interested into saying, oh, where's kind of a travel team, I can be a part of. Okay, I can go there and then from there, beyond the under 19 setup, have minor league and these other leagues for these guys to get into as they try to make their way up. There's a long way to go. Money's got to come in at some point, but there's the stepping zone you have to make. Plastic set, I think that's a great point because I remember as a kid in India, we actually, our school had a plastic set for baseball, so they had those stands and we used to just sit and whack and we only had it for a year or two, but a lot of people got interested. We used to look up like baseball and things like that and how to play and videos and all of that, but obviously at that point, the internment wasn't as strong and then we didn't have all these TV channels, so we didn't end up catching it, but that's definitely a great starting point. Go ahead, Benny. Well, I was going to actually also talk or ask you about college sports because you're a young person. I don't know why it sounds so old in that, but you're actively, from your background, it seems like you're fairly well versed with college sports and you have an understanding of how that works and that's one of the things that really struck me when moving to the US was the importance given to college sports and how it was covered and how much money is being invested and I know there's been a lot of talk over the years about being college athletes and so on, so there seems like a separate economy for this. Do you think cricket could be introduced as one of the options in college sports across the country because not every one of the sports are also introduced at a school level, right, like what crosses such a big thing and it's fairly popular at the college level, so can it go that route and how to create a pathway through that, try to give opportunities to athletes and give them this probably Bible option of making a career out of cricket. And it'd be a great jump to get cricket into universities. The issue comes with so title nine is a system in college athletics that gives opportunities to female athletes, right, so you have to have for a new sport to get introduced, you have to have both a male set up and a female set up, so what you need is you have plenty of male cricketers in the States, which you need is an exponential rise in female cricketers in the States and there's a lot of good female cricketers. My sister played a girls cricket and I've met a lot of the girls who play for the under 19 team and now the USA team through that and I've covered their cricket a little bit, but you need just an exponential rise all over the country of female cricket, so the way you get cricket into universities and I think that's a big deal if you get it into there because now it's okay, well, even if I don't make it to the US team, I got a scholarship to go to school, I can play cricket that way and so I'm going to invest in cricket. You have to develop the women's game and spread the women's game as well, so that's why the school thing for me is so important because you can reach both the young boys, young girls, and you get more people interested that way and then from there as you see the rise in female cricketers to match the male cricketers, then you'll have that opportunity for cricket to get exposed into universities and there doesn't have to be in every university because sports like field hockey, they're not in every university, but you still have people who play field hockey go to college for field hockey, I mean this school I went to UNC Chapel Hill has one of the best field hockey programs in the country, but not everyone plays field hockey, so you don't have to get in every university, you just have to get enough kids and enough young girls, young boys interested to kind of feed enough universities where they'll take, they'll accept a cricket as a sport. Yeah and I think it's almost a chicken and egg problem because I think if we have that somehow then obviously a lot more kids would be interested because that would be their pathway of, you know, not having to pay for college education, which obviously is an interesting problem, but the other reason that question is always interesting to me is soccer is a great example where, you know, worldwide, most popular sport in the US, it's definitely not the top two sport and what I feel with that is in spite of that, the women's team is extremely talented just because the US has so many great athletes and that's why the US soccer team, women's soccer team I should say, has consistently been in the top three, top five in the world for the last couple of decades, one multiple World Cups, so I just feel there's so much potential there with regards to women cricketers and not just because one US has amazing talent in terms of women athletes, but also because the women's game is not as well developed as the men's game, so in the men's team obviously the top 10, top eight to 10 teams are, you know, extremely professional, they get paid in millions, they have their own trainers and chefs and all of that and and they are at another level, so trying to compete with that while you're, you know, for example, sorry, Nathan Walker doing a job at Oracle is going to be challenging, you know, not trying to be, you know, not try to put the men down, but it is a challenge. The women's team are not as professional, at least not past Australia, England and maybe to some extent India, so that I think is a great opportunity to also expand the sport in this country. Yeah, and I think we've seen some investment over the last couple of years in the women's game in particular, especially with that, you know, under the first women's under 19 World Cup, there's a real big push, you know, every year you have an interregional, which is just particular cities will host the best under 19 girls in that area, and then they go into a regional's competition, which kind of just shrinks that pull down, then they go to nationals, which you get all of them into one spot. And so yeah, we've seen, you know, some really good cricketers and then they've kind of been able to go to different leagues, you know, there's the women's, the CPL, the six, the women's 60 down there, you know, and we saw Gethik O'Kodale, the USA under 19 captain, go down there, take a hatchet off two balls. If you haven't seen that, you've all the wide off the last one, I got the the batter stumped, which is pretty cool. But you know, she did that there, and then there's this fair break competition, which I think is maybe the biggest deal in women's cricket is because you get a lot of associate members over there, or you don't, it's not just the, you know, with the women's IPL, a lot of it is the Aussie women, the Indian women, the English women and a couple of South African women. Obviously, Hayley Matthews is one of the best women's players to ever play. And so you get a couple of them from the West Indies, but it's from the major cricket nations. But for fair break, you get, you know, the folks from the Netherlands and you get the USA, how she was there, like, yeah, you just get, you just get a wide range. So you get a lot more, a lot more women in that way. And so I think, you know, I would love to see fair break come to the USA and have a partnership with USA cricket, and then, you know, grow it that way. So I think a real investment into the women's game, we've seen steps in that direction, if they can keep pushing, which will make cricket in the USA better. And again, like you mentioned, as a women game starts to develop and continues to grow, you can kind of latch on to it and grow with it. And instead of having to play catch up from a wider distance, you're playing catch up from maybe a smaller distance, that's more manageable. So, you know, growing the game for the women will do nothing but good for the U.S. cricket team and the U.S. cricket board. One other, and I'm kind of going back to one of the other points, earlier points you made was, you know, developing local centers. One of the things that I was, you know, I was looking at Major League cricket, watching some of the games, following the scorecards. And I noticed, for example, last night's game, Washington played New York in Dallas. And then I think today Seattle is going to play LA, and that's going to be in Morrisville. So it just, I do feel that at home in a way concept also needs to be developed a little bit. And I understand there's obviously U.S. being such a big country, there's geographical challenges, travel challenges and all that. But have you heard any talk around that, you know, just having them host in their individual, you know, cities, and obviously there has to be stadiums and the right facilities and all that. But do you think these franchisees are moving towards that? Yeah, no, they are. It is part of the overall vision for Major League to have each city have their own stadium. And so it is now, it's on the teams and their own is to get that ready. You know, that is the ultimate goal that that's not lost upon Justin Gill and, you know, the CEOs of Major League cricket, that is their ultimate goal. They want to have that home in a way field. I know San Francisco is pretty close to a stadium, and infrastructure has always been the biggest problem in the state. So you have a couple of good facilities, and then from there, it's like, okay, we have a ground, but we don't have change rooms at Morrisville is a prime example of you have a public park where the city invested in a cricket pitch in a cricket field, but it's a public park. So there's tennis courts and a playground and not change rooms and, you know, a media place and a commentary box or things like that. Now, that I think what Major League has done to get around it has been terrific setting up these temporary structures has been really impressive with the team that they have. And they are some of the hardest-working people I've ever met. But the goal is to get more of these, you know, more grand prairies around, right? What they did with the airhog stadium, they're converting a minor league baseball stadium. They're not asking teams to build from the ground up. The idea is, in your area, find either a abandoned stadium, a stadium you can buy and convert it, or if you want, build from the ground up. I know that New York Stadium was kind of in the balance and then didn't up working out, but the onus is now on the teams to go and get those stadiums. And they want to expand the league as well. They want to go from six to eventually 10 teams start a little bit earlier. And those teams will also have to buy in, have to provide stadiums. So I know if, you know, if they wanted to move to Chicago, they need one there, you know, wherever they want to go. So I know that San Francisco has been close. I work with their media manager before. And so she's been kind of talking to me about that. And I know Seattle's got a couple of things in store. Washington had a deal with the university that's trying to find something else now. So these teams know that that's the idea. Major League knows that, you know, and Major League knows that the best way to grow the fan base for these teams is to have something in that city, right? And so they did it with minor league. So I think they understand that concept. And, you know, I think the first two years have just been in Dallas, in Morrisville, only for the fact that those two are ready, those who are good to go and they're good enough to play on. So so you get it done that way. Well, it takes time, right? I mean, even the IPO when it began, it relied just mainly on stars, especially overseas stars. And I feel like in the beginning years, the domestic telling, in fact, I remember, you know, back then there used to be a lot of articles about like how the league is just being sustained by overseas and, you know, the Indian internationals and the domestic pool is not very good. Fast forward to today. And you look at the kind of talent that is in Indian domestic cricket. And so I think that's a good blueprint even for where the U.S. cricket is right now in terms of its players, player pool. And it will take time. I was very encouraged when I went. So I attended a game in Morrisville last year. And I was just struck by the fans, how much they were into it. And again, this is like the first edition. You know, so I'm a big Super Kings fan. So obviously I was supporting Texas Super Kings. And you could, I mean, like now you can't believe, but you know that it was like more of this park was just a wash and yellow. And because of, you know, familiar stars from the Super Kings can. So you have that advantage of having this almost like ready-made, you know, fan base and support. So the foundation is there. And what's going to happen in the next year, the coming years, needs to be more eventually homegrown talent. You know, more U.S. players kind of like stepping up to the next level and kind of making a name for themselves. And then forming an identity around that player or set of players, I think that's the way to go. And with that, we'll come more money and more opportunities to build on infrastructure and expand into like different cities. So I'm actually encouraged. I know there's a lot of T20 leagues in the world right now. But I was pleasantly surprised by just how the majorly cricket has started out, especially in the first, first edition last year. And by all accounts is doing well this year as well. Yeah, I mean, it's cricket in America. I think it's a, it's a place where a lot of these international stars would want to come to, you know, you get to come to the States and you get to play for a month. And you know, they make ridiculous amounts of money too. So I'm sure it's not a bad payday in that regard. But in your point of domestic talent, I think, you know, year one, I, you didn't see Sunjaker's from what they get on the field, right? This year he came into bed at three versus Amherstice going on a team that features Finn Allen, Matthew Short, Jake Frazier, McGurk, Corey Anderson, Josh Ingles. And they sent Sunjaker's from Worthy in to stop the bleeding of wickets. He got sent in the other day two days ago and scored 30 runs, you know, dealing with some of the best bowling in the world in nonjaker and company. So, you know, to see those guys kind of take those next steps are big deals. And I think with Sarabnathar Volker, you know, the headlines of the Oracle man, you know, taking wickets, it's only going to do good things. So, you know, the cricketers that are representing USA right now, whether that's Andra Schles, whether that's Sarabnathar Volker, having that success, making international headlines are only going to help the likes of Sanjay Krishnamurti, of Yasir Mohammed, of Saiteji Mukamala. You know, all of these young guys who were born here have played their cricket here. And, you know, already have represented the USA and are looking to kind of make bigger names for themselves. The more attention though the domestics that are already established get, it's just going to trickle down. So, yeah, I'm excited for the next couple of years to see how these domestic pools kind of, you know, buff up because honestly, if you start a majorly cricket in 2020, you still have these same kind of names, it's not where it's not as good as it would have been today. And so, because of the last four years, you've seen a real investment in talent in the coaching that we've seen from the players that were signed from overseas. They've, you know, really become one with their local communities and worked with a lot of these guys. And you've also seen, mind the cricket be this backbone for domestic products, because you have the best stars that they've signed over from overseas to come be here and live here and become Americans. And you have the local boys playing against them every day. If you're bowling, Todamukchand, you're bowling to Andriscos, you're facing harm each saying, you know, every single day, you're going to get better. There's no way around it. So, I'm excited to see just how much better these guys are going to get. And I'm excited to see what this league is in five to 10 years. I know as someone who's living it right now, it's hard to have a five to 10 year vision, because 10 years would be half my lifetime. So, it's hard to think that far out in the future. But, you know, it's cool. And I know the trajectory is just on the open up. Is there, I'm kind of putting you on the spot here, but is there between one to three players, US players that you feel nobody really knows much about them, but they're going to be superstars, US cricket in the coming years. Oh, wow. No one knows about them yet. Or even just a little bit, maybe you've seen the name, but nobody's really talking about them. Right, right. Let's see, who's amongst that list? I think the three I've mentioned, I mentioned a lot, Ali Shake, I love, but he's kind of made her name for himself. Sunjay's obviously made her name for himself this year. Yasser Mohammed, I don't know if many people know about this kid is like spinner. We don't have a lot of leggies in the States. We got a lot of left arm spin, not a lot of guys who spin from the wrist. He's the kid who's made in a national debut. Was a pace bowler back in the day when I used to play him and kind of converted himself. And so he's still working on his game, but he is very confident, very aggressive. And you know, it's just always working. And I love the intensity of that kid. I love what he can bring. And I think he's someone that can kind of keep moving in the right direction. He's in the freedom camp right now. I like what he brings to the table. Obviously, Sai Mukamala is someone that I've always talked about for a long time. Everyone that you've asked at Place Craigler Sai is just said he's going to be the best bat that maybe we've ever had. That's kind of the expectation on him. And it's unfair expectation because, you know, here's a 20, 21 year old kid, but the guy is just so extremely talented. And then maybe from this last under 19 batch, someone like a with grocery Vastava, who was a vice captain of the under 19 team. He's local here in Warsaw. So I've seen him for a long time. I might have that little bit of bias. But I think what he does really well is he he adapts to the batting order. He can bat one, two, three, or it can bat by six, seven. So he's a guy that has kind of developed that game, developed the power hitting and he bowls a little off spin and he does it quite well. So I think he's a kid that part of this under 19 batch that no one's really heard of and really talked about but could be really special. Perfect. I'm going to make a note of these names and check back. There's plenty more. There's plenty more I didn't name. So anyone who's listening, like Ali Shake, he's already made a name for himself. So I don't even got to say Ali Shake today. But Sunjay obviously is in there. There's a lot of really good young talent coming through. And I think we've lost a lot of really good talent because of the fact there wasn't this these leagues. But you're getting to see these guys play. They have an opportunity to continue to play and these guys love cricket. So they're going to keep playing. So before you wrap up, obviously, a lot of this depends on how the game is governed here in the US. And especially, I think we're at a critical juncture in US cricket because now cricket has kind of emerged in the consciousness of the sporting public to say now, will it be built on what is a future hold? I mean, beyond majorly cricket and minorly cricket at an international level, as far as US fall in the route that Afghanistan has taken, for instance. Or let me ask you this way, what role do you think that the administrators have to play in the coming years to make sure that this momentum has sustained? Yeah, I think any good cricket team is only as good as a governing body that if you have to continuously work around your governing body, you're not going to make the jumps that you feel you can make. And I think that there's always been troubles with US cricket boards, whether you're going back to the USACA days or even now, there's problems, there's always troubles up there. Look, I think the big thing for the board is just to not get in its own way. We have some momentum. Let the people who have brought some of that momentum continue to do it and work with those individuals. I think there's been a lot of egos in cricket, there's a lot of egos wherever you go, and the United States has no different to that. And I think a lot of it is, hey, let's push you, you go to the side, the game is going in the right direction, how can we keep it going that way, and work with the folks who are pushing it in the right direction. So, I think that is the role that we haven't seen a governing body take in quite some time in the USA cricket and maybe ever. So that is a big thing of, hey, what's going well? Where can we help? Where do we just let happen? What happens because it's working? How can we work with the people that are making things happen? So I think a lot of it is just setting you to go to the side and looking for the best thing for cricket in the States. I do think the corporate partnership plays a big role here, because obviously, once big corporates get involved, which has already happened with Majorly Cricket, and you hear all these news about, hey, Sundar Pichai is thinking of helping build a stadium in Seattle and all of that. They will definitely, if they're spending tens of millions of dollars, they will want accountability. So I think that partnership plays a key role in making sure we have a stable administration, which is free of biases, corruption, whatever it might be. And that helps hopefully keep the momentum going. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that seeing the interest outside of the cricketing world in general into Major League has been big. And I think, again, you're not going to help yourself get those more of those companies in if they see corruption and suspension of boards and this and XY problems just popping up left and right. These are business folks that they understand, you know, pros and cons are going to look at it and weigh it and decide whether they want to put their harder money into it. So again, get out of your own way, let your biases go and do what's best for cricket in the States. All great points. And I think we should end on that optimistic note. I mean, thank you so much for your time today and just kind of talking about all of these things. I mean, we could have talked more obviously, we only kind of touched upon women's cricket here in the US. Another thing that's always fascinated me is the argument that more players should get opportunities to play in, you know, all these overseas T20 leagues, you know, someone like an Ali Khan played very briefly for KKR and the IPL. Maybe we need more of these players, more exposure in T20 leagues to improve their game. And, you know, so there are a lot of points to talk about, which I hope you will get another opportunity to talk with you. So yeah, thank you for making some time for us today. Now, thank you guys for having me. It's been great. And, you know, if you guys, if people want me back, I'd love to come back. So yeah, no, it's been great. Had some fun. And yeah, I appreciate you guys a lot. Thank you for listening to an episode of The Last Wicked. Do check out other episodes on your podcast app of choice or at The Last Wicked.com. This podcast is a cricket guys production featuring your hosts, Benny and Mike. And if you enjoy this podcast, do let a friend know, rate and subscribe on your platform of choice. Follow us on your social media feeds and leave us always message. If you would like to share your thoughts with us, thank you again for listening. And from all of us here at The Last Wicked, stay safe, stay healthy. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]