The art of leadership network. I have tried to raise money and I want to give a shout out to anyone who tries to raise money for a cause because it is so hard. Let me put this way, selling multi-thousand dollar programs was so much easier than getting people to donate $100. Either donate the money or don't donate the money. This is the cause. I trust it. I'm putting a lot of my own money. In fact, I'm matching money, donate or don't. The way they pulled out a questionnaire of 30 questions before they would donate was actually outrageous and offensive to me. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoffa Leadership Podcast on YouTube. It's Carrie here and I am so glad you joined us today. Ramit Sethi is back and man, I love Ramit. I know he's not particularly well known in the church world. In fact, when I was talking to him, I asked him how many interviews he's doing and he said hundreds right now and I said, "How many church podcasts?" He's like, "One, yours." And I'm excited. I've followed Ramit for years, taken a lot of his courses and we're going to talk about how to teach couples about money in your church. So many church leaders I know are afraid of this topic. They don't want to touch it. They have a weird relationship with it, so Ramit and I go there. We talk about why raising money for charity is so hard. I think you're really going to like that part because he talks about he's a business entrepreneur, he's made millions of dollars, then he tries to raise money for charity. He's like, "Game changes, you're going to love that part of the conversation." And also my favorite maybe, how to deal with cheap board members. For those of you who deal with cheap board members, what do you do? Well, New York Times best-selling author and Netflix show host Ramit Sethi is going to jump in and have the conversation. He is the host of the Netflix series, "How to Get Rich." He is the author of the best-selling book, "I Will Teach You to Be Rich" and his new book, "Money for Couples" and "Host of the Podcasts, Money for Couples." He literally reaches millions of people every single month on his platforms and I'm thrilled to bring you to them. Hey, quick welcome to all of you who are listening for the first time and our regular listeners I hear from so many of you who are like, "Hey, man, I've been there since episode one or episode 52, I want to really thank you for that and if you are new to this and you haven't subscribed, please do so." And we're going to jump into my conversation with Ramit Sethi in just a second after we hear a word from our partners. This episode is brought to you by the highly productive leader challenge. So let's be honest, how has 2025 been shaping up so far? Well, if you're like a lot of leaders, the busyness of ministry has already taken over. New Year's resolutions are slipping. Everybody kind of forgot about that. 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So it's not too late, you haven't blown 2025. This year, I'm hosting an exclusive live coaching session focused entirely on how to stay ahead in your sermon prep, where you will get practical strategies to stay ahead and stay inspired when writing your messages. So this is going to pay back all year long. You don't have to keep running on empty. Make February, not January, the turning point for your year in your ministry. How do you get in? Learn more and join today at productive2025.com. Again, that's productive2025.com to live and lead at your best. This episode is brought to you by the new book by Mark Clark called The Problem of Life. If you ever wondered why, despite having more money, more knowledge, more comfort, why more than any other generation before us do so many of us feel unfulfilled, disenchanted and even lost? Well, that's the question that Mark Clark explores in his compelling new book, The Problem of Life. With a unique fusion of biblical theology, psychology, philosophy, deeply human stories, and I might add some humor, Mark shares 11 practical practices to help you reclaim your identity, your purpose, and your joy. From the time Mark told a woman or husband was dead and had the wrong guy to how he accidentally saved a woman from killing herself, Mark draws on everything from experiences to theology to psychology to pop culture, and he offers answers to life's biggest and deepest questions, questions about suffering, significance, and the search for meaning. The problem of life won't just make you think it'll change the way you live. So pre-order now on Amazon or wherever you buy your books, it's time to stop just existing and start flourishing. And now let's dive into my conversation with the ever fascinating Ramit Saiti. Ramit, welcome back. It's really good to have you. Thanks for having me back. I'm very excited and we're going to get into principles for like money principles for couples. One of the things I've been fascinated by because I've been following you for a long time is you seem to keep reinventing yourself. You've always been the I will teach you to be a rich guy, but I've seen you pivot into like everything from relationship coaching to different things like that. Can you talk about the evolution of 20 years in business? And let me just say one more thing. First of all, congrats on 20 years in business, man. That is not easy. But take us through the narrative because we have a lot of entrepreneurial types listening. Well, 20 years in business, in my opinion, there are some people who love to repeat the same thing for 20 years and they're really good at it. That's not me. I love to expand topics. I love to try different things. If I were still talking about the difference between a traditional and Roth IRA today, I would not want to be doing what I do. I would be bored out of my mind. So my philosophy has been get really good at something, document it, whether it's through a book, a course, whatever, something so that people can always have access to that library of knowledge and then move, take one step forward into a different chapter of your life. That has happened through topics such as careers, business, money, psychology. They're all related. They're all related. They're all one step away. I think crazy and I'm not talking about how to make soup, but they are slightly different. And then also the media in which I share. So I didn't have a podcast for many years. I recently started one enjoying that. I started a TV show on and on and on. And those allow me to stay fresh and learn new tools, new ways of reaching people. And so you kind of follow the curiosity trail or how do you decide what idea is next? Like what are you going to focus on in this next season? Yeah. A lot of it is intuitive. I mean, ultimately, after 20 years, you really start to trust yourself. And you, at least for me, I can tell where there's what I call heat, where there's something going on, something I can feel or I can sniff out. And sometimes it's as simple as posting online and getting an overwhelming response. For example, recently I posted about people who have inherited money. You know, in America, it's this big thing, everybody's talking on social media about generational wealth, generational wealth, which I find a little absurd. But what we don't talk about is the people who actually inherit it, who are often right now in their late 40s, et cetera. So I ask people, hey, if you have inherited wealth, write me back. I'll keep you anonymous. How do you feel about it? What have your parents paid for, et cetera? I got hundreds of responses within 20 minutes. Lots of people saying, I feel guilty. I feel ashamed. I never tell anyone about it, but they pay for our kids private school, or they put a huge down payment on our house, et cetera. What an interesting dichotomy that in America, we are obsessed with generational wealth, but the very recipients of it feel guilty and ashamed. That's a potential topic for me to dive into over time. >> So you look for the hotspots. You look for the reactions, which is interesting. I just did a webinar earlier today before we jumped on. I was telling you before we hit up. I was talking about rationalizing your church budget. It was a pretty technical webinar. We had lots of people on it. When I talked about over-staffing, which is a problem a lot of churches have, and basically get rid of your B players and go with only A players, the chat lit up, and people had a hundred objections to it. I'm like, we're going to go there in the future. >> Didn't agree with you? >> They were like, how do I possibly do this? Like we can't fire anybody, or I don't have the emotional energy to let, I know I need to do it. I don't have the emotional energy to let a third of my staff go, or I can't possibly get my budget for staff. It's what you talk about in terms of fixed costs on a personal budget. If you generally in church world, if you exceed 35% to 50% of your budget, more than that goes to staffing, you have a problem. Your fixed costs are just too high. >> Very interesting, very similar to what I see. When I work with couples, I bring them on the podcast. I have all their numbers, their income, where they spend everything. It's quite revelatory, and often they will tell me, especially parents, well, we can't cut back on that. There's no way. They say it so much that- >> The private school no way. >> Yeah, they say it so much that I decided I want to start a new service. We've all heard of SaaS apps, software as a service. I want to start NAS, which is no as a service. If you have a problem, especially saying no to your kids, you just write me, you email me. Hey, Rameet, do you think that we should spend $4,700 on this new tent? And I literally would just write back, no. Simple. Now, I don't know if I'm going to make any money off that, but you know I love saying no. >> I love it. >> I need that some days too. I mean, no is hard, right? Like, no is hard. But it's funny. It's like a heat map, right? You can test on social. So that's fascinating. You shared in an email just before we hit record on this, maybe last week, you were talking about a time where your business took a real turn for the worst. Not year one, but like year 10 or 15, you had a real episode in your business. What happened and how did you recover? >> There was some real tough times in the business. This one in particular happened around 2016 and 2016, our business dramatically slowed right around the election. And instantly, when we saw the numbers coming in, we were paying attention to it. I started reaching out to my peers. They were talking about the same thing. Lots of slowdown. We're talking in many cases, 25 to 50% overnight drop in revenue. That's a big drop for many businesses. That's game over. If you have a 50% drop, it's over. So the initial thinking was, it's the election, which to some extent, I do think that election does suck up a lot of energy in the media ecosystem. We started making changes fairly quickly, and we could not change the trajectory. It just got worse and worse. And then I decided to step in and get a little bit more operational. I was writing emails. I said, I was dusting off, cracking my knuckles, dusting it off. Okay, the old wizard has returned, the master has returned. Well, guess what, it didn't change anything. So when I wrote my own copy, every word, and I said, wait a second, this isn't changing either. There's something structural going on here. That's when we started to have to make some more tough, difficult decisions. One thing was we had to do layoffs. That was very difficult. We had an amazing team. And I will say, I am thankful that we could do it gracefully and give people the respect they deserved. I'm also thankful that we had a secure cash position. So I've run the business conservatively, and that really helped, really helped. There was one other side effect that I had never anticipated. So my dad is notoriously unstressed, like nothing really phases him. And I have become the same way. I'm kind of known for it like, oh, it's nothing's really going to bother him, whatever. And I believe that. That was my identity until this. When this started happening, the downturn in business that was quite severe and it didn't seem like there was an easy fix, I would wake up in the middle of the night and I would be gasping for breath. And I didn't make the connection. I went to the doctor, the ENT doctor, and they look in my mouth. They said, physiologically, you're fine. Are you stressed at all? And I laughed. Am I stressed? Yeah, you could say that. And what I quickly learned was that I am just like anybody else. I'm not special. I may have a slightly higher tolerance for stress, but eventually it catches up with me as well. And it was affecting me. I was waking up gasping, which is a horrible way to sleep. Well, once we made the changes to our business, that phenomenon disappeared. I've never had it happen again. So it was clearly related. And what that really taught me was, one, make sure you run your organization conservatively, two, keep your eye on the numbers, know what's going on, three, if you have to make changes, make them quick. And finally, you're not special. I'm not special. We're not special. They're all pretty much the same. And once we accept that, then we can start to make decisions that have worked for other people because they're probably going to work for us. What in your business model stopped working and then what did you pivot to? Prooffully beyond the election, which I do think had an effect, I think we had stopped innovating for a few years. There was a golden age where we were innovating quite a bit. And then we became too internally focused, focusing too much on our internal process and juggling things around. And the fact is, the customer doesn't care. All they care is what's new. Are you giving them something that's valuable? And if you're not, then in many ways, the market's going to tell you and they told us. And so what we had to do was a dramatic recalibration of our business and we had to re-understand where that actual value drivers were, not what we thought they were because us fixing some internal software tool is not, nobody cares, but it's what they care about. That is what has to drive us. So practically speaking for the people who follow you, what would they have known about you before and then who have you become in the last eight years? I think they would have, I think in the past, they would have known me to be quite tactical. I would have, in my first book, I will teach you to be rich. I gave extremely tactical advice about exactly what account to set up, exactly what to say when you call this phone number to get your fees waived, valuable stuff. I think that since then, my audience has known me to become more considerate and hopefully more emotionally sensitive. In fact, I'm 42, in my 40s, when I look back, I think that the most valuable thing I've done in the last 20 years, it's not a TV show, it's not a best-selling book. It is tapping into the emotions that I would have ignored as a 22-year-old guy. Not just ignored, I would have actively fought you if you told me, but I've realized the power of that. Man, I'll tell you, that's something that I love about your podcasting. I rarely miss an episode, it's fascinating to me. I sort of, as a podcaster myself, play this game in my head, like what would I do with this couple when they're telling you, "You're worth $7 million and won't spend $300 bucks on a hotel," or a couple that has seven vehicles and they're underwater, but he doesn't want to get rid of them. I'm like, I would be more like, "All right, guys, that's enough." I'm sure there must be a part of you under your breath and you're like, "Oh, well, tell me more about that. You're incredibly empathic, understanding, thoughtful. Can I say restrained? Maybe that isn't restraint for you, but it's got to be restraint for me." You've really developed that, so I'd love you to talk a little bit more about that because I think that's a skill that is so rare and you're one of the best at it that I've seen and I listen widely. Honestly, thank you so much for saying that. That compliment means more to me than any amount of money and any amount of business success because it was not natural for me and it was really hard. I think the things that are hard for us are often the most meaningful. You look at me as an 18 to 25-year-old, very confident, sometimes cocky, and a real lack of understanding or even interest in understanding the emotional parts of a decision. To me, it was so obvious, "Okay, you're overdrafting your bank account, then therefore you should open up. This, this, this, this, this." Oh, you and your girlfriend are fighting about money? Well, duh, say this, do that next, do this. Good stuff, good tactics, but kind of missing what was really going on, almost as if I just needed to put on a separate lens that would allow me to see ultraviolet light. I realized that. I realized that in my own relationship as my wife and I got together and we struggled to talk about money, we went through a process signing a prenup. I'm like, if this is this hard for us, especially for me, the money guy, then imagine how hard these type of conversations are for other couples. That led me to starting this series of conversations on my podcast, where I bring real couples on the show of all different backgrounds, different socioeconomic status, different everything that's geography's age, income, everything. But I asked them to share real numbers, you've never seen real numbers like this. Some couples have $500,000 in debt, some couples have $8 million in net worth, and they talk about their challenges. I wanted this when my wife and I were starting to talk about money. I just wanted to listen in like a fly on the wall. Don't tell me to have the conversation. Let me listen to actual people. I want to see what happens. When do they cry? Why do they say they can't change and then show me what it looks like to actually maybe help people make a change in the way they talk, think, and feel about money? That is the money for couples' podcast. Yeah, and what you do so well, because you're so restrained, so thoughtful, because otherwise you're going to lose them, right? If you come out of the gate swinging, you're going to lose somebody. If you pick a side, you're going to lose. What happens is inevitably, or almost always, three-quarters of the way through, there's a turning point, and they see it for themselves, and they resolve, and sometimes they don't, and you're honest enough to share it. You know what? I couldn't get so and so to agree. I asked them to follow up. They didn't follow up. That's how it ends sometimes. It's a masterclass, I think, in learning how people work and how to motivate people. I'm probably wired a little bit like you. I would just drive a truck through it. It's like the same. Just do it. Okay, so it's funny you say that. Often in the comments, there are lots of places that people will critique each episode. From a listener's perspective, or a viewer, because we put them on YouTube as well, so you can actually see their faces and body language. It's very tempting to simply say, "Oh, my God, this is so crazy. He's insane, or she's insane, but they're insane." I would just blank. They use the word "just" and then it's blank, as if it's so simple, as if you just scream at someone and suddenly they change their entire worldview. Now, it might be tempting for the viewer to want that, but my job is not to appeal to the base desires of some crowd. That's not my job. I'm not here to entertain some random anonymous commenter on YouTube. I'm here to help the couple. That is who I care about. So I take it slow. I have to build rapport. You have to remember, the people who come on the show, this is probably one of the most nervous moments of their life. They're probably wearing their best clothes. They're in front of an artificial camera, which doesn't feel normal. They know that, number one, they're seeing the same guy they see on TV. That already feels nervous. And number two, they know that millions of people are going to hear and see this. We have to give them some compassion, and I have to connect with them. Sometimes I'll take a 20-minute digression. We'll talk about where they like to eat. That's time well spent, because in order to get to the intimate details of what the two of them are talking about, literally often in their bedroom, I have to be able to connect with both of them. So that is how you build trust. It takes time. It's not about a gotcha moment, although sometimes I will call them out. It is really about, you tell me what your rich life vision is, and I will see if we can all get there together. For those listening who do counseling, it's worth, it's now called money for couples, the podcast, search it out, watch it. It's a masterclass in getting people to agree. So 20 years in leadership, what have you learned? What have you learned about resilience in leadership or meat? One thing that I've learned is live to fight another day. Live to fight another day. Personal finance, the phrase is don't run out of money. That's what personal finance and business is saying. But the way I interpret it is don't give up. Live to fight another day. So the way that that shows up in my life is proper risk management. It means I have a sizable emergency fund in case something ever went wrong. It means I run my business conservatively. So if something goes wrong as it did, I don't have to close down shop because I want to live to fight another day. It means in my personal relationships, keep things going, keep engaged, send a text, see your friend when you're in town, talk to your loved ones when you can, right? Those kinds of things. Live to fight another day. Don't give up. Even if somebody says something that you disagree with, this is one I personally struggle with. Talk about it. Have some conversations before you cut somebody off, although I'm not the perfect example of that. If something really crazy, I'm like, all right, goodbye. So live to fight another day for me is asking yourself, it's really acknowledging that sometimes things can go bad. They can go really bad. When our business started to go down, we had modeled out like a 10% decrease or a 20%. And what I learned from that is it can always get worse. I don't think we've really accepted that. I had that, whoa, what if we modeled out a 35% decrease? What if it's a 50% decrease? How would we exist? And so in order to live to fight another day, you have to be brutally honest about what can go wrong. That allows you to prepare, put your plans in place. And of course, always ask yourself, what happens if things go right? Because I prefer to live there. But I don't want to give up just because I ran out of cash. I don't want to give up because one key person left and I didn't have SOPs around them. I want to live to fight another day. So a couple of years ago, you did a Netflix series, How to Get Rich. And it was a version of your podcast that you had been running for years, just helping people figure out their finances. It was a limited series. What did you learn through your experience with Netflix? I learned the power of working with an amazing team. And I have an amazing team in my business. I will teach you to be rich. This team was different in that I had never worked with any of them. And they sort of spin up around 50 people to build, develop, and create this show. And then everyone scatters to the wind. I think that very often leaders, like you and me, we are used to telling others what we want to have done. And sometimes you have to do that. I get it. But what a gift to be with a team that tells you, and you can sit back and say, wow, that's a really good idea. I didn't think of that. I'm not going to do that. I would never do that. It's off-brand for me. But it filled me with a feeling of relief that I had amazing capable people around me who were looking out for me, brought that back into my own business as well. And then the other thing I learned was, in the past, I would have thought that success was taking somebody in some sort of financially problematic scenario and then getting them a $25,000 raise or helping them pay off their debt, et cetera. What Netflix and specifically the crew there, including the showrunner Bianca and many others taught me is that maybe, maybe you can help them have a transformation, but some people are going to listen and some people are not. It's their story that is a success as long as they can tell their story. Whether they listen or not, whether they transform or not, that is success for them simply to share their story. And that was profoundly a different way of looking at success. And remember, I had been running my business about 17 years at that time. And for me to still learn new things like that, what a gift. That's true, and that's probably, I think a lot of us who are wired as leaders really love the before, middle, and after. And let's be honest, we love to be the hero in the story. Yeah. Right? If we do that. But I think what I hear you saying is not every story has a happy ending, but the telling of the story actually kind of lends credibility. When you air those episodes where the couple didn't agree, there haven't been a lot, but they've been a few. And you're like, spent four hours with this couple, I don't know what to do. Or these guys said they were gonna do it, but they didn't follow up, and they still owned 17 SUVs that they don't need. Or whatever it happens to be. The non-happy ending, and I'm thinking for church leaders, we always like to tie a bow on it. This person got baptized and never had a mistake again as long as they live. But actually being honest about the story, and people go like, yeah, that's me. I don't always do what I'm told. That's totally it. I have a, well, actually this story has a dark and unhappy ending, which I love. I love a movie with a dark ending, just like, who, what director has the courage to do that? Because in America, we love to tie it up with a bow, that is quintessentially American. And yet it's not human. So I had a bonsai tree, and my dream, one of the parts of my rich life is one day I'm gonna have a gigantic massive bonsai tree, six feet tall. It's been growing for 400 years. Well, I figured before I get that, I better just get a bonsai tree at Target or something and practice it. So I get this little bonsai tree is behind me on my bookshelf, and I'm watering it. I'm watering it. It's doing fine. It's not really progressing, but it's alive. Then I had to travel and this and that, and I come back. It's not looking good. My wife bought me a bonsai look. It was like written for children. It was like 18 pages long, just like it fit in the palm of your hands little. I never read that book. I never even opened that book, okay? I just didn't want to. I wanted my bonsai tree to live, but I didn't want to go through the work of reading this 18 page book. So eventually the bonsai tree dies. And to me, that was such a beautiful metaphor for money because if you had asked me, Ramit, do you want to have a beautiful huge bonsai tree from Kyoto or something? I would have said, yes. Do you want this little bonsai tree to stay alive? Yes. Well, why haven't you read the book? And I would have no answer for you because humans are irrational and I am not special. So there's an unhappy ending. But sometimes we need to hear those unhappy endings because all of us have something in our life where we know we should be doing it, but we are not. And once we can connect with that, whether it's connecting with your congregation, whether it's going every Sunday, whether it is running your business in a certain way or calling your mom, we know we are not doing the thing we should and we need to accept it and interrogate why and maybe make a change when and if the time is right, that is deeply connective in my experience. Well, there's a biblical principle. I think Jesus taught it, right? If you're faithful with a little bit, you can be trusted with a lot more. If you're not faithful with a little bit, a little bonsai, which costs you $17 at Target as opposed to multi- I don't know how much they cost, you get that built in your garden. And I didn't even read the book, right? But I blew 20 grand on it or whatever it happens to be. Yeah, I wasn't ready, I wasn't, and that's okay, I'm not ready. Not everyone is ready for everything and all of us at different levels have something in our life we are not ready for. That's okay, but it's really helpful to be able to observe it and name the dynamic. One more thing about your company, which I find fascinating is you've rebranded a couple of times and you did it recently, I went to listen to I will teach you to be rich. It's like it's not on my playlist. Now it's money for couples. Okay, what are you learning about rebranding and keeping an audience engaged over time when you continually innovate and change? I wouldn't say I'm a branding expert, so I learn from a lot of folks and I think some companies do it really well. I will say this, we started the podcast called I Will Teach You to Be Rich, that's the name of my business, it's also the name of my first book. Over time, it is very explicitly a podcast for couples and money, that's what it's about. And when we have the book coming out, Money for Couples, and it just seems like it's natural. This podcast is about the very topics in the book. Of course it is because the book is based on a lot of what I observed in the podcast and then expanded. The biggest challenge for rebranding often is a feeling that the world is going to get mad at you. And as if somebody's sitting there with a spreadsheet of all the branding changes I've made and they're like, "Rameet sati, this one really angered me and therefore I'm going to write you this scathing email." First of all, nobody cares. We always say in our company, we are but a moment in their day. What does it mean? That we are lucky if we get 15 seconds of attention through these laborious emails that we painstakingly write. I had this really funny thing that during COVID, I started these fireside chats. I was out of the city and I said, "You know what? When it started," I said, "I'm going to be here every night for as long as this goes on." And I literally had a fire. I had a fire. I was sitting by the fireside on a rocking chair and I would talk about whatever. Every night it would be about this or that. I would talk about money, careers, whatever. And at a certain point, this went on for a long time, like a month, two months, every night for an hour. My wife was there filming. And then I started to kind of get bored with it and I didn't have things to talk about. I started to resent it because I'm like, "This went on a lot longer than I thought. It's supposed to be two weeks." Yeah. So then one day, I just, at the end of the one hour thing, there are all these live viewers I go, "Okay, well, it's been fun. This is the last one. Bye." And I just hung up. Now, deep down in my heart, I think I hoped that all these people would write and protest. Rameet, come back. You're so important. You're my 8 p.m. Every night. Do you know how many people wrote me? Zero. Nobody cares. We are but a moment in their day. And once we accept that, it makes things so clear. This obligation that we make up so that we can become the hero in our own story is so self-defeating. Look, here's another way to look at it. I had a good time during COVID. We all needed something to do. I have a lot to say. I had a great time serving while I could. And then when it wasn't working, I wrapped it up and I feel thankful that those videos are still there, but I'm good to go. That's another way to look at it. You know, just to echo that, twice in the last six, seven years I've started other podcasts, gotten to hundreds of thousands of downloads on them and then thought, "I'm not going to do it." And expecting the inbox to explode. And yeah, you don't even get a golf club. Yeah. Thanks for doing that. Yeah. And so I think you're right. You've got to give yourself permission. Yeah. So, you know, you have a lot of church leaders listening to this and business leaders. And we have the unenviable privilege of talking about money. And sort of where, you know, where I come from, what I learned along the way in leadership is, you know, churches stereotypically ask for money. It's what I want from you, Rameet, and that gets us into all kinds of trouble. So we started casting Vision years ago that this is what we want for you. And it's basically what you do, what Dave Ramsey does. It's like we want you to pay cash for a vacation. We want you to take the vacation. We want you to save for your kids retirement, or your retirement. Want you to save for your kids' education. We want you to have money in the bank in an emergency fund. Da-da-da-da-da-da. And we also think you should give generously, right? But it's what we want for you rather than what we just want from you. So that seemed to really change the money game for us. And that's kind of what you're doing, right? It's like, this is about what we want for you. I will teach you, you know, how you can actually have some more money. It is. I love that. It's, there's a great book that I read before by, I think Charles Green is the author, The Trusted Advisor. And what they talk about, whether you are a lawyer or any kind of advisor. That often means, that means putting your client first. It's as J. Abraham says, putting them at the center of your world. And when you do that, sometimes you do it to your own financial detriment in the short term, but you always tell people why you are doing it. And it's critical. In my business, for example, I don't allow people with credit card debt to join my flagship or very expensive programs. That cost me millions and millions of dollars, a lot of money. But it is the right thing to do ethically. And it's also me being a trusted advisor and saying, look, I want you to pay off your debt. Here's a free chapter from my book, use it. And when the time is right, I'll be here. Come back. And those folks who come back are the most committed because they know I'm not here to get a quick buck. I'm here to build a lifelong relationship with them. I think if churches take your advice, which I hope they do. And they talk about how to work for, how to have your money work for you and what churches want for you rather than from you, they might give certain advice. They might say, first off, I want you to be financially secure because you are present when you are financially secure. Your family is secure. You can sleep at night. You're a better husband, wife, father, mother, all of the above. So this is important. Next it's, you have to talk about the things that are important to you. We rarely talk about money in families. In fact, the way we describe it in American culture is have you had the conversation about money? Would you have the conversation about parenting? No. Would you have the conversation about elderly or ill parents? No. You would have lots of conversations. And in fact, you would have to find a way to enjoy those conversations, otherwise you wouldn't have them anymore. So money in our culture, if we go deeper, especially in the church, there's a very tortured relationship with it. We love money. In America, we love to look at our friends in Bora Bora on a Wednesday and say, I want that or that beautiful jacket they're wearing, that's okay. But also we hate it. We hate it because when we talk about money, it brings up deep, deep, seated feelings of guilt and shame and often things that we're passed on from our parents, our culture, maybe even our church. I don't want that for you. I want you to have a healthy relationship with money, just as I want you to have a healthy relationship with food, just as I want you to have a healthy relationship with this congregation. So the way that I say it in plain English to my own listeners and readers is when you think of money, you often think of a confusing budget full of overwhelming numbers, not me. When I think of money, I see a beautiful family trip to Disneyland for you, or the ability to pick up your kids from school every day, or even a beautiful cashmere sweater that you wear happily. That is where money can fit into your rich life. Right. And to that note, I think you're right, having sat in the lead pastor's seat for two decades, if I have an awkward relationship with money, that's going to translate. People can smell that a mile away. And so some of that is you got to be okay having that conversation personally. So that's sort of, I want to get into some of your new content on this. How do you have a good conversation about money, realizing it is not the talk in church language, it's not one series that we did back in 2013, and that takes care of it forever. But how do you begin, what are the building blocks of great conversations about money? This episode is brought to you by Glue Plus. So have you heard? Glue Plus is revolutionizing church leadership, and it's growing quickly. Every single day, 11 new churches join Glue Plus to leverage its powerful tools. That's 3x the rate since just the summer for churches. And when you sign up, here's what you get. You get unlimited texting and groups to connect with your people. You get their new mover program to welcome new neighbors to your church. You get impact tracking tools to measure success, and you get exclusive discounts on ministry resources. Glue Plus is quickly becoming the fastest growing platform for pastors and ministry leaders. Don't miss out. Be part of this movement early, and you can say, I was one of the first. So sign up today at glue.us/glueplus, and unlock the tools to build a thriving, stress-free ministry while focusing on what matters most faith. And now you can use the code, carrysave20, for an extra 20% off, go to glue.us/glueplus. That's g-l-o-o.us/gl-o-o-p-l-u-s. In the new book, Money for Couples, I have extensive word-for-word scripts on conversations. The first thing I talk about is how to have your first positive conversation about money. Remember that many people reading this have been married for 25 years. And they have never had a single positive conversation about money. I talk to them all the time on my podcast. Many of them have never even really talked about money at all. Sure, they've said, why did you buy that at the gas station, or I don't know, maybe we should get the LX, not the DX version of the car. But they've never really sat down and said, what's our philosophy on money? What's important to you? Because this is important to me. And gosh, I feel kind of embarrassed that I don't know what a 401K is. We've never had those conversations. So having your first positive conversation about money involves no numbers, none, no spreadsheet, no boring budget, I hate budgets, none of it. It's simply sitting down and saying, you know what, here's why this conversation is going to be awesome. And starting off by describing what's going to make it positive, I've wanted to talk about money with you for a long time, I don't feel I've done a great job. But when we have this conversation about money, it's going to be awesome because it will allow us to be super honest with each other and to be open about what we both want. And if there are things that are different for you, that's okay. We don't have to be the same, but it's going to be awesome because we're going to get to learn something new about each other after all these years. And then you just go down the list right in the book, you know, here's how I currently feel about money. How about you? Here's how I want to feel about money. How about you? Notice we're tossing the ball back and forth too often when it comes to money, there's a monologue. No, it's got to be a dialogue together. You got to toss the ball back and forth. And then what are we going to do next? That's it. Simple. This is five minutes, 10 max, wrap it up, give each other a high five, give each other a hug and a kiss, call it a day. And a lot of the work that I do with couples, it's about having fun, declaring victory and going home because we don't have to do it all at once. We have a lifetime to build this relationship with money together years ahead. Do most people end up marrying their opposites? I mean, I certainly did. I would be the spender. Oh, yeah. Tony would be my wife. You know, she looks as money as security. I see it as opportunity. We'll talk about the four money types, but, you know, there's that. We often in common parlance, it's the saver versus the spender. And Tony naturally is a saver. She's really good at that. She came into the marriage with the figure varies. I say it's getting larger as time goes on, but, you know, thousands of dollars in savings and I came in with $8,000 in student debt, which we dealt with almost immediately. I'm like, oh, you know, we'll figure it out and she's like, no, we need a plan. And so, you know, she's right. But for us, that was decades into our marriage until we really were able to have. And now we've had years with positive conversations, but that was really tough. And it seems to be, and most of the couples I talk to, you talk to way more about money than I do, don't have initial alignment where like, oh, well, that's funny. That's exactly how I feel. You feel that way too? Oh, that's what I think. Yes, we all agree. Okay. End of conversation almost never goes that way or does it? >> It's a really interesting question of do we end up marrying our opposite? And I will, I'll have to say no, but not for the reason you think. Most people when they get married do not even understand their own philosophy on money. They don't, if I ask them, what is your philosophy on your savings rate? They would say, huh? I would say, how do you make the trade off between investing now or spending on discretionary things? Huh? Again, I'm not making fun of anybody. This just, we are not taught nor do we, quote, need to ask these questions. For most people, money is as simple and even simplistic as I get paid on this date. My bills are due on that date. As long as I have something in my checking account, I'm fine. That is literally how most people go through life with money. Again, I'm not blamed. I have deep compassion for it because that's how I treat my car. Get inside, as long as the lights work, I'm good. I don't really care how this mechanism works. Just get me where I want to go, leave me alone. So that's how we treat money. And so person one does not really have a philosophy on money. And two does not have a philosophy on money. However, they've both observed things. We are little detectives. We saw mom stressing out at the end of the month with her checkbook, paying bills. So we think, hmm, I guess moms are the one who have to pay the bills and take on the stress. And dad is the one who, quote, earns the money. These are things we pick up from culture and from our own families. Then you get partner one who doesn't have a philosophy. Or two who doesn't have a philosophy. And then you have the two of you getting together in a multiplicative way. So it's like one times one equals 10 of confusion. And it only shows up when very particular things happen, like you have kids, like you go to buy a house, et cetera. For the most part, as you pointed out yourself, you can go decades without really talking about money. And that is my plea to couples. You don't have to go decades. You don't have to fight about money. You can actually have positive conversations about money. And also you can live a much bigger, richer life if the two of you are aligned and rowing in the same direction. I love the simplicity of your money types. Can you walk us briefly through the four money types that you've identified? Yeah. Speaking to many, many, many people over the last 20 years, it's clear that particularly in couples, there are money types and you'll see them everywhere. The first is the most common, the avoider. Avoiders will do anything they can't to avoid money. The second is the optimizer. I am an example of an optimizer. Somebody who loves to run a Monte Carlo analysis or plan, what if we do this? What about 35 years from now? What about that? That's an optimizer. A warrior is somebody whose relationship with money is best characterized by simply worry. Are we going to have enough? What if we run out, et cetera? And that is typically regardless of how much money they have. They often don't even know how much money they have, but they certainly know how to worry. And finally, there is the dreamer. The dreamer might sound positive, but it's actually a very difficult partner to live with because the dreamer believes that success is simply one deal away, one gig, one get rich, quick scheme away. They are allergic to long term sensible money management and investing. They're looking for that quick fix. And they are typified, for example, in the book I described the exact phrases they use, but one of the ways they say it is, I don't want a nine to five job, basically implying that that's for losers. I don't think having a nine to five jobs for losers at all, I think often sensible, low cost, long term investing and a well paying job is a really good thing. So avoider, optimizer, warrior and dreamer. You may be one, you may have combinations of multiple. The good news is you can change it. The even better news is you're never going to change yourself deep down, but you can add another layer. Just like we can add a new palette and you taste that we like, maybe I don't like pickles. I can learn to like pickles. Well, guess what? Maybe I'm a warrior, but I can also learn to focus on growth and to feel safer. Sure, it will always be there a little bit in me. That's okay. That's who I am. Fine. But I can add on a new layer to my financial palette. I think that's a really good way of thinking about it. And one of the things I want to get into in this next part of the conversation, Rameet, is a lot of people listening will look out over dozens, hundreds, thousands, literally some tens of thousands of people on a weekend, and they're going to do a money series. And often we're basing it on anecdotal stuff that we've picked up, but we're not financial counselors like you are, or a couple of articles that we read in research, or just what we think we're trying to read minds, like what are people actually arguing about. But you've had the privilege over 20 years, and on your podcast interviewing well over 200 couples directly on this, all the research for your book. I would love to know if you're advising the communicators, the preachers who are going to do a series on money, what is going on in the minds, hearts, and lives of the people that they're speaking to? Because, guess what? Christians have problems too. Believe it or not. We have a lot of problems. We're just people, right? Yeah. When you look at money, I don't know that we're fundamentally different, other than theoretically we're supposed to prioritize generosity. So based on that, what are the top two or three issues that you've learned most couples are just going to struggle with when it comes to money? The first is that they don't know their basic numbers. And I think this is very hard for people to understand and believe, and certainly to accept, most of us have a view that humans are rational robots, and that if there's something you care about, then you would understand it. But did everyone heard what I said just a couple of minutes ago? I'm a pretty smart guy, and I don't know how my car works, nor do I care to. I wanted my bonsai tree to live, but I didn't even read a small little children's book. So what does that say about me? And this is important. It doesn't mean I'm stupid. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person. I have a limited attention, and candidly, if you just look at my behavior, I'd probably rather watch TV than learn how my long since past bonsai tree needs to be fed. And I don't know what that says about me, but that's the truth. So when it comes to money, if you ask people, is it important to you? Of course, they'll say, yes, you ask them, you know, has it been a source of stress? Yes. And then if you ask them this one, Clinton question. Have you read a single book about personal finance in your life? They'll go, oh, well, I started this one book on page three. I go, look, it's fine. It's fine. You haven't done it yet. That's okay. Let me paint the picture for you. So that step one is just people get into trouble because they don't know the basic language, and you can't succeed at something if you don't know the basic language. They've never read a book, candidly, my own audience. Over half of them has not read my book, my books in every library and bookstore anywhere. That's life. So they know the million copies, I think, you know. It's easy to find. And that's okay. That's human nature. They may read it when there's a reason for them to or they may never read it. That's also okay. So the first reason people get into trouble is they don't know their basic numbers. They don't understand what a 401K is or the difference between an index fund and an annuity. That's first. And I don't want to interrupt you. Can I add a little nuance as a podcast listener to your show? Sometimes that includes they don't know how much money they make. 50% of the couples I speak to do not know their household income. That's five zero, not a typo. That's a great example that really typifies how little we engage with money. Now, you have to ask if you're at all intellectually curious, you'll go, how is that possible? And your first reaction might be to say, well, they're just outliers or they're just stupid or then you just dismiss them. Well, they just don't care. Wrong. Stop. That would go deeper and say, what is it about money that would cause 50% which is a very large cross section of people who apply to a podcast. That's a highly self-selected group that theoretically should be way more to not know their household income. And the answer is, most people don't really care. As long as money is coming into their checking account and their cable is still working, that's the extent of it. Now, that is where you have to start. That is where you engage with people. And just saying, look, that's okay. I don't know a lot about X, but I also realize that money is important. It's unlike watering a plant. It's far more important because it's, do we have the ability to have children? Where do they go to school? What about date night for us so we can connect as a couple? What about the important values that we have? How are we using money and time to live up to those? That's money. So that's number one. They don't pay attention. Sorry, number one is they don't know basic numbers. Number two is they don't pay attention to it. Money is often thought of as something that is a nuisance, as something that we fight about every couple of months and then we paper over it and wait until the next fight. But there's a lack of joy around money. My wife and I love talking about money. We have a regular monthly money meeting, which I describe the agenda of in the book, exact agenda. We also have a annual rich life review, where we sit down for several days, you know, and it could be, you go to a cafe, spend a couple hours and then go for a walk, or it could be, we often travel and we're walking around a beautiful city and we're just talking. We're talking about what do we want to do more of next year? What do we want to do less of? What was really meaningful to us, you know, what would be magical next year? And so we're starting from a place of possibility. You will get to the spreadsheet and we'll get to the actuals versus the this and that. Yes, and if you have debt, yes, of course you have to check in on your debt payoff progress, but you always start from a place of vision. The final reason people get into trouble is they want someone to rescue them. Sometimes it's their husband, sometimes it's their wife, sometimes it's just somebody, but not me. And my message is nobody's coming to rescue you. It's up to you and you actually can do a much better job than you may even think is possible. Now, the other thing that I think, you know, because most pastors, despite the headlines, are not super high income earners, right? You have a few people with private jets, I get that, that there's a handful, okay? Most people listening to the show are fairly paid, but they're not making bank, if you know what I mean. And so sometimes you see the entrepreneur, there's a remit who shows up at your church and you're like, "Rameet doesn't have any money issues, he's great." Yet what I've discovered from your work is high income earners get into money troubles too or they have a bad relationship with money as well. What are some of the frequent issues you run across when it comes to high income earners? What problems do you see frequently? This is a great question because this is a highly under-disgust topic for several reasons. It's politically incorrect to talk about people who have money and still have problems. Everyone's like, "Boo hoo, must be tough, rich people problems, yeah, exactly." And also people with a lot of money often don't like to talk about it for that exact reason. They get kind of destroyed on TV or online. Well, I actually love speaking to people from all over the spectrum, including high income. I love it because I know most areas of that spectrum. I grew up quite frugal with my family, both immigrants from India and we had a pretty big family and we're talking about packing lunches and the only vacations we typically took were in our van driving down to visit our family. And then having grown my business for 20 years, I've experienced another part of that spectrum. So I love to be able to connect with people at almost every level and of course I bring in folks who grew up with even far less than I do. For people who have money, they often have many problems and the problem that they typically have as it relates to money is they believe deeply that if I just have 50,000, 100,000, 500,000 more, 5 million more, then I will finally stop worrying about money. And again, I'm asking you to suspend your disbelief. If you're listening to me talk about some multi-millionaire who's worried about it, it's actually really, it's a crystal ball into your future. Here's why. All of us, most of us deeply believe that if we just had X dollars more, we would stop worrying about money. And I'm here to tell you that is untrue, it is untrue because I've talked to multi-millionaires on my podcast who still agonize over the price of blueberries, who still will not allow themselves to upgrade their seat or in one haunting case, I had a family, a couple who came on my podcast and this woman had had a medical procedure, she had had a transplant and she had recovered, she was doing well but she had a limited time left, she knew how many years she had left and she had done quite well, she had millions of dollars. She had two young daughters around the age of 10, she said I want to spend a lot of time with them in my remaining years left, I said great, let's do it. How can I help? She said but I don't want to quit my job. Why? Why? She said because I love my income. So I want everyone to listen, this is literally life or death. This is a mother who has a husband and two young daughters and she has a chance to spend quality time with them in her remaining time. We all have a ticking clock, she just happened to know when her is roughly in and she could not tear herself even as a multi-millionaire away from her job. Now what that really shows is that you getting another 50k is probably not going to change the way you feel about money. In fact, here's a phrase I want everyone to internalize, the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to the amount in your bank. So you can have negative 200k, you can have positive 250k or even 7 million, you will probably still feel the same way and there is an antidote. Two things. First, you got to know your numbers. You have to understand the language of personal finance. It's not that complicated. You can read my book, you can learn this stuff. Two, you got to work on your money psychology. You have to master it. You have to practice abundance. You have to practice generosity. These are skills. They don't come naturally. If you do those two things, you can change the way you feel about money. You can do it today and you can do it for the long term. See, this is what's so valuable about that. Thank you for going there in the answer, because I think a lot of times church leaders look out and they know they have high net worth individuals and they're like, "Why are you not giving to our capital campaign? What is like?" And we think, "Oh, if I had that much money, I'd be writing six, seven figure checks." And what they don't realize, what's hard for me to realize as a pastor is, "Oh, no, they have problems too. It doesn't go away, right?" Yeah. They have problems. Yes. Really, I think this is a... It's hard. For example, you gave the example of a pastor who's not making a lot of money and you are talking to folks who have a high net worth. And it's almost like a caricature like, "Oh, those are the rich people. Let me just knock on the glass and they should pump out money." And my feeling is, first, we have to find a way to connect with them. They probably have things going on that are not immediately obvious. I also think that I have tried to raise money and I want to give a shout out to anyone who tries to raise money for a cause because it is so hard. I have... Let me put it this way. I've sold millions and millions of dollars of my own programs online. I'm really good at it. I feel super confident about it. My wife and I have raised money for some political causes and we raised them online and we did a... an event in New York. And then we asked my community, "Hey, if you want to come to the event, come to the event, if you want to just donate, donate." Okay. Let me put it this way. Selling multi-thousand dollar programs was so much easier than getting people to donate $100. I had people, they were coming out and they were saying, "Well, remit, can you please describe in detail what percentage is going to the staff because I don't like when nonprofits have a high percentage." I said, "What the... Why are you sitting here analyzing a freaking financial document, either donate the money or don't donate the money? This is the cause. I trust it. I'm putting a lot of my own money. In fact, I'm matching money. Donate or don't. The way they pulled out a questionnaire of 30 questions before they would donate was actually outrageous and offensive to me. But on the other hand, I do want to give credit. There were so many people who donated. We raised a ton of money. We did it for the political cause. We've done it during COVID to feed people. We've raised a tremendous amount of money. So I just want to give a shout out to all the staff trying to raise money. It's not easy and I myself can attest to it because I can sell things easily. That's not a problem. But raising $100 from people, like each person donating a hundred, they reacted in very peculiar ways. So I share in their pain. Thank you. Thank you. And you're right. I mean, it is very nerve-wracking and the thing about pastors is we don't even benefit from it. When you're raising money for politics, you're not raising money for a raise for you. And we're not doing the same thing. Usually the pastor has to give to the campaign is giving, so it's actually an effective pay cut. Okay. That's super helpful. One more question on high net worth individuals. What is a good bridge into their world? I've had the privilege of asking a number of different guests over the years, that question, but I love your take. If you were to show up at a church synagogue mosque, whatever, temple, and some guy was like, "Rameet, I want to have a conversation. What would feel it to you and what would feel like really good to you?" I've never been asked that before, but I love the question. I was raised going to a Sikh gurdwara. That's a Sikh temple. And we went there most Sundays, and I'm quite familiar with them. They have a big community aspect to them. It's very communal. I love that feeling of, we're all here for something that's bigger than any of us. It doesn't really matter how much money you make when you walk in this door. We're just here for something, but I love that feeling. There have been a couple moments that I thought were really cool as an adult. One of them was touring a Sikh temple in New Delhi, where I saw their facilities. They have this amazing hospital that they have created, which includes dentistry, cancer treatment, everything, and it's given for free to anyone who cannot afford it. If you can't afford it, the costs are highly subsidized. I went there and I think eyeglasses are something like the equivalent of $5. It's very affordable. Just to see what they had accomplished and take a tour of it was quite amazing. I think that there is power in showing the good things that churches and organizations do. I wouldn't have known, and I thought it was really moving. The second thing is being invited to give a talk on whatever topic might be real. What I'm doing right here, when you invite someone to share their work, especially the things that are important to them, especially if there's a good audience, the audience responds. They're engaged. Suddenly, it makes that person want to engage more with the organization. Those are the two things that come to mind for me, but I'm actually curious what the other folks have answered because it's a great question. So first of all, you're showing the work? Yeah, very powerful. Being invited to give a talk. That thought has never occurred to me, and I'm like, now I want to go back, be a lead pastor again, and invite some key entrepreneurs to give talks in different settings. But you know what, because we, I've talked with, well, you probably know Patrick Killincioni, right? Patrick Killincioni. So I know Pat's a Roman Catholic, and he said publicly on this show that they kind of want you to stand at the door and just hand out programs or whatever. And you know, meanwhile, he gets exorbitant amounts of money to go speak to top companies, and he's like, nobody ever asked me what I think. So I've thought about tapping into expertise, but I haven't thought about, could you give a presentation? Could I interview you? Like if I was doing a money series and you were part of our church or you were even adjacent to us in the same city, I might tap you on the shoulder and I say, hey, we're not trying to convert you. Just, would you come in and would you talk about top money issues for couples? What might you say to that if it was a relationship? Would you say you're open to that? You know, I think so. I think in part because I know you. So there's a warm introduction. Yeah, I'm not inviting you and, you know, don't give people your email address. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. I think, I don't know, I don't know how many Americans have a positive experience with their churches growing up. I genuinely don't know the answer, but I have a lot of positive experiences of my experience at our outdoors, and, you know, we met friends and I saw my parents being socially engaged and we learned that there's something bigger, you know, that we don't always have to get what we want sometimes. You just sit and listen and that's important and we learn, I learned so many things. So if somebody were to ask, it's possible. I just think, I think regardless of what I would say, I think more importantly, I love the idea if you are mission driven, if you are a leader in any kind of organization, including a church. I love the idea of getting a little bit more aggressive, like what's the worst somebody says? No? Okay. Cool. There's a hundred other people I got on my list. I appreciate it. If things change, let me know. We'd love to have you. Thank you so much for even considering it on to the next. I don't mind. That's okay. Yeah. No is a perfectly good answer. Right? Nast. No is a service. Anyway. You know what? The number one answer just to go circle back on that is has been treat high net worth individuals like a human being. Yeah. Don't treat them like a bank machine. Just get to know you, your wife, and there's an intimidation. Others are intimidated because you have a lot of, you know, zeros in your bank account, and we don't understand that. On the other hand, a lot of business leaves are afraid, like, don't ask me how to exposit the book of Romans, because I can barely quote a verse on that. So we're intimidated by different things. And so it's just... Interesting. Yeah. Bridging that divide, right? Yeah, I mean, I'll recommend that anybody listening to this, if you are in the position that we're describing, listen to some of my episodes on Money for Couples with the wealthy couples. You can see right in the title, it says, you know, we have $4 million and we're afraid to spend. Listen to a few and you'll realize they're just people. They might have some extra zeros. They might have a high paying job, but ultimately, we are all pretty much the same. And I love that. We're all in this together. So. Yeah. What about average people? You know, because you do talk to people who grew up with very little or have very little. And then you talked to a lot of very average income earners with marginal net worth. So what are some of their frequent flyer issues, so to speak? Well, if it's low income, the principal problem is that they don't earn enough. That's as simple as that. However, if we're talking about median income, there's a couple of unique challenges. One of them is that when people overspend, they overspend in two areas and it's always the same. It's always in this order. First, they're overspending on housing. They're spending too much based on what the numbers justify and number two, they are spending too much on their automobiles. Typically, it's an SUV or a truck. It's extremely expensive, but they have no idea. They simply know they're a monthly payment. And I'm like, oh my God, okay, yeah, what you will often see is that this is manifested by a couple coming on and they're fighting, oh my gosh, I can't believe she spent this much at Target. And I'm looking at their numbers and I'm like, how much? And it was $75 instead of $35. And meanwhile, I'm looking at the monthly payment they have for their truck, which is $1,400 at 13% interest rate. And I'm like, trust me when I say Target has nothing to do with this. But to understand that you have to have a somewhat sophisticated understanding of money that, oh, first of all, what is interest? I don't even know what interest is. What's wrong with my monthly payment? Every month I still have my truck in my drive in. What's the problem? What are you talking about? That's not the problem. And the real problem is that she went to Target and bought more than she said. It's again, it's a very simple way of looking at the world. And what I want to do is show people this is an important topic. It's worth understanding. Trust me if you get these few big things right, you're never going to be fighting about how much somebody spent at the grocery store or at Target. That's almost never the problem. Yeah, so that's it. It's the fixed costs, right? And you don't do a budget. You do a conscious spending plan. We talked about that the first time you were on one of the issues I think you touch on in money for couples, which, and you certainly have talked about it in other areas is shame. What is really interesting, you're right, with high net worth people, with people who have a lot of credit card debt, student loans, or just, you know, they're living paycheck to paycheck, which I think is, I read today, 72% of Americans right now or something, there's a lot of shame around money. How do you suggest addressing that? You know, I start off by using myself as an example. I'm quite open about areas that I spend money on and don't. And one of the counterintuitive things that I do with my money is my wife and I rent by choice and that is, for a lot of people, that's quite surprising. Like why would the, I will teach you to be rich guy, rent, isn't that for losers? Because in America, you know, we're kind of taught that owning a house is the ultimate American dream. I do that for a couple of reasons. And I want people to deeply understand the numbers, especially on the biggest purchase of their lives. And very few of us do, in my estimation, about less than 1% actually run a very simple analysis. Two, I want people to understand that you choose your rich life. Your rich life is yours, it's different than mine. So when I share an example of how, for example, I would rather buy a beautiful exquisite cashmere sweater than to own a house, they're like, what is wrong with this freak? But that's okay, that's my rich life. It doesn't have to be yours. In fact, you and your husband or wife don't even have to agree on everything. That's okay too. My wife has her own areas that she likes to spend on. And I have areas that she doesn't care anything about, that's okay too. When it comes to these topics of shame, so often we feel that way because we don't understand how money works. We are not confident in our choices because we don't understand how money works. And we are simply buying the things that we want or that we see, knowing that there's somebody somewhere out there who thinks we're making a bad decision. But we haven't put the two together. What I really wish for people is for them to go through my book and my journal and the new book Money for Couples and to really come up with a crisp vision of what my rich life is. For example, I don't ever want to have to repair anything in my house. I hate screwdrivers, I hate Home Depot, I never want to have to go there again. Therefore, I will always have a reserve maintenance fund of $3,000. And if and when something breaks, I will tap into that and happily use it. My wife and I or my husband and I will have a recurring date night once every two weeks. We will hire a babysitter, we will go out, we will have a beautiful time. And that is important for the health of our relationship and on and on and on. That's what I want. It becomes this beautiful personalized vision and you can still do it if you have debt. You can still do it if one of you is in school or staying at home right now, you can still do it. You can just adapt it. And it becomes something that is highly meaningful to you because it is your rich life. I had to ask you this question too. So one of the dynamics in church world is a lot of us are boards or, and there's always a cheap member on the board, particularly if you haven't done this. So if I question or meet and I know there's a great answer to this, how do you fix cheap or can you fix? Can't fix cheap. I can fix a lot, but I can't fix cheap. It's very difficult. And I'll tell you why. And then I'll tell you what I would do. So, you know, I speak to a lot of frugal people on my podcast. I make the distinction between cheap and frugal. And oftentimes frugal people will come to me and they'll ask, how do I actually start to enjoy spending money? And this is, this seems bewildering to a lot of people because again, they think we are rational robots. If I had a million dollars or five, of course I would spend it. No, you wouldn't. You do exactly what you're doing right now. You would just feel worse. And so I work with them. I talk to them. I went through this myself because I was raised quite frugal and I had to learn and on and on. The fact of the matter is that very few people in those situations ever change. Why? Because they come to me, they go, I have money. I can't seem to enjoy spending. Every time I do, I worry about how much I've lost in compounding gains, blah, blah, blah. And I start to work with them and help them start to change it. It's hard. It means you have to look inside out and change your entire world view on money. And eventually they go, this seems like a lot of work. I think I'm good. I'm just gonna stay at home, go for a walk in the park, never upgrade my airline seat, eat the same food, and they wrap themselves in a righteousness. I don't need that fancy wine like those people. I don't need to go to those places. And I consider it a total tragedy. It's not a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to. Now, if we know that folks don't even change by spending their own money, then imagine a cheap board member. The only solution I have is involve them, ask them, what would you do? Try to have them put some skin in the game, say, look, here's my budget. How would you handle this? And don't let them get away with saying, well, I would just blank blank, no, no, not just. Tell me exactly what you would do. Tell me how you deal with this obstinate other person who won't do this and get them involved, make it their problem. If they still won't do it because they're never gonna get involved, they just wanna offer opinions without doing the work, then you have some difficult choices to make. >> Yeah, yeah. Simple as that. >> Years of leadership have led me to that place where you can't fix cheap. And if somebody is just always seeing the downside, I mean, it's particularly if they have a vote, if it's one voice on your board, that's fine. We get it, you're never gonna prove any increase, but you gotta have people who believe what's possible in a growth mindset. >> That's right. That's right. We cannot live our entire lives worried about what can go wrong. Yes, let's manage risk, let's plan for the worst, yes, but we have to operate as if things are going to go right. Otherwise, what are we doing here? >> Is there a final thought or anything we haven't touched on that you would really like to touch on before we wrap up today, Ramit? >> For me, money in a relationship is profoundly fun and it is something that if we tap into it, we can change the way that we live. Money affects where we live, what we eat, what we do with our children, if we have them, it affects who we are. And the fact that most of us don't know the basic language of it to me is awesome because by reading a single book, by listening to some podcast episodes, suddenly you realize, my God, this isn't that hard. It's sure it's vulnerable, it's really scary, that's what I had to go through with my wife. I had to open up, I had to realize I was being a little bit too focused on numbers, too transactional. We need to connect in a different way, but man, I think the payoff is huge. It allows you to feel good, it allows you to sleep well at night, it can allow one parent to stay at home if that's what they choose. It can allow for magical experiences as a family. And I think most important for parents especially, your kids are noticing everything. If they notice mom getting stressed and they think that moms should get stressed, daughters notice that, sons notice if men are avoidant with money. They think, oh, it's not my problem, it's a common dynamic. When I ask couples what do you remember about money, the kids will often say the exact same thing. Oh, my parents never talked about money in our family. Or the only thing they said was we can't afford it. Well guess what, 30 years later those children show up on my podcast and it's a lot harder to fix it than if you yourself had built a healthy relationship with your partner, showing that in the household. And if you have children, they pick up on that. So we got to have a healthy relationship with food, we got to have a healthy relationship with each other. And we certainly have to have a healthy relationship with money. Well it helped a lot of leaders today. The book is called Money for Couples, it's available literally everywhere. The podcast now goes by the same name, Ramit, if people want to track with you online, where can they find you? You can find me at IWillTeachYouToBeRich.com or on any social media platform. >> Yeah, Ramit, thank you so much for making the time for this, this has been a thrill for me. >> Thanks. >> Always great to talk to you. >> Well I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did, I find Ramit fascinating. He's a great follow. I've told so many pastors subscribe to his email list, you will really learn how to write. When you read Ramit, I think he's one of the best at email marketing. In fact, I had him on the show before, and if you enjoyed that, you might want to go back and check out episode number 510, 510. That's my first conversation with Ramit, again, he does not do really any church leader podcasts, but I wanted to bring him to you as a voice that I hope you will find helpful. So anyway, next episode, we're going to switch gears because we've got Tyler Staton on the podcast, and yeah, we're making a hard left, hard right, however you want to describe it. I'm not really personally about lessons from his cancer journey. Why? As even the leader of 24/7 prayer USA, he did not pray for healing, and what happens when you can no longer lead from your strengths? Basically, here's what we do on this podcast. I bring you conversations with leaders I find fascinating, and I ask them questions on your behalf, and you know, most of us are really interested in a variety of topics. I think money comes up, and your personal journey comes up. So that's why I've got back to back episodes with Ramit and Tyler. That's sort of the MO of this podcast. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review. It makes a big difference to us, and we can get guests like Ramit and Tyler the more that this podcast grows. So when you do that, when you share, you make the show better. When the show gets better, you get better leadership fuel. You see how that works? And if you want to share it on socials to my team off and repost those. I'm Currie Newhof on Instagram, see Newhof on some other channels. We're also on TikTok now, stepping into that, and we got video versions of 99% of these conversations. You can find that on my YouTube channel. Coming up, we do have Tyler State and Dave Ramsey, John Orford, Craig Grishel, Mark Clark, Justin Briarly, Annie F Downs, Gabe and Rebecca Lyons, and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. And hey, don't forget to check out our partners featured in this episode. They make it possible to bring you these episodes for free. We will catch you next time, and I hope our conversation today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing. Hey, leaders, is 2025 unfolds? What cultural trends and shifts do you need to keep an eye on as a church leader? Well, one of the challenges I think from being involved in day-to-day ministry is it requires so much time, attention and focus that you don't really have the time to see the bigger picture. But if you miss what's going on in culture and at the meta level in the church, guess what? Your efforts can often miss the mark no matter how well-intentioned you are. That's why I publish my annual church trends each year to help leaders like you navigate what's next. For 2025, I've identified five disruptive church trends that will shape ministry this year. We're following state of evangelism, which is not good, to Gen Z attendance trends, and from mental health and church leaders to what I'm calling the non-derivative church, you'll get a detailed, data-backed snapshot of what's happening this year. You'll not only get a detailed, data-backed breakdown of all five trends, but a comprehensive leader guide with discussion questions and resources to help you and your team apply what you learn. It's all available, totally free, at 2025churchtrends.com. The future of the church, I believe, is bright, but it gets brighter when you see the moment we're in clearly and you adjust the sales accordingly. Again, go to 2025churchtrends to get all five trends and your leader guide absolutely
