The Doncaster Connection

Artist Imogen & Rachel Horne

I met up with Rachel at DGLAM where Imogen’s art will be exhibited from 25th January through to 19th April 2025. As Imogen is non verbal Rachel helped me understand what Imogen’s art is all about and why it was so important to help people see her work and advocate for Immogen and artists like her.

Rachal also talked about curation, her new venture into employment in Manchester and how working with Imogen has been so important to her.

There will be a number of workshops open to the public at DGLAM over the next few months:

Saturday 8th February 1-3pm - Screen Printing and Visual Merchandising with Chris Perkins from Creative Push.

Saturday 22nd February 1-3pm - Working with textiles and mixed media with Jacqueline Irwin.

Saturday 1st March 1-3pm - Collaborative work on canvas with Chinwe Russell.

Saturday 22nd March 11am-3pm - Creative wellbeing through traditional crafts and storytelling with Suzanne Wass.

You can keep up to date on Imogen’s life and work via Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/imogensworld_/

You can follow Rachel Horne on Instagram here:

https://www.instagram.com/artistrachelhorne/

Don’t forget to subscribe and spread the word if you like the episode, if you want to find out more, you may have suggestion or you just want to connect you can email me here: raj@madaanmedia.net

This was a www.madaanmedia.net production

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Duration:: 50m
Broadcast on:: 24 Jan 2025
Audio Format:: other

[Music] Hi and welcome to the Doncaster Connection episode 20 featuring Rachel Horn. This episode, we talked about artist Imogen, who is exhibiting her work at D-Clam. Today's Friday, so Saturday is the launch of it. It's going to be from 11 till 3, I think they're having like an official launch, but the work will be displayed there throughout the next few months into April. So that's cool, so go down to D-Clam and check out her work. It's quite prolific, there's loads of it. I remember creating a video with Rachel a little while ago, which is up and live. I'll put a link to that in the description. It's amazing, yeah, she creates so much and she's like a true artist. If there is such a thing, I don't know, I mean, she just doesn't, she can't help her do it. And we get into that in the episode as well, and how inspiring it is to see the way that she creates her work and how she doesn't necessarily consider the audience. It just, she's just got to do it, she's just got to create it. So Rachel's role in all of this is a curator of all this work. We talk about that in the episode and how she curated for the first time and that experience and how that's kind of led her to love that side of what she does. Artist Imogen is artistic and non-verbal, which is why Rachel's kind of speaking on her behalf for this episode. But yeah, great episode, we got into quite a lot, really interesting insight into Imogen and how she creates and what her world of art is all about. Finally got a chance to talk to Rachel. I've been kind of knocking at her door saying, come on, let's have a chat. But I think because she's left Doncaster and she's now in Manchester, she's also taken on a full-time role, looking at how, working for the NHS, I think she says, but it's all in the episode. And yeah, I think she wanted to come back and kind of be on the podcast for a good reason and what better reason than to celebrate, you know, a young Doncaster artist, who's having her work displayed, are probably, you know, one of the most significant venues that we have in Doncaster, like D-Glam. So cool, go down to D-Glam, check out the work, it's amazing. There is one thing that we kind of missed out of the episode that Rachel wanted to highlight, that the Doncaster Trade Union Council, who in the past stepped in after Rachel was unsuccessful with Art Council funding for working with Imogen. So they stepped in and supported Rachel and put some funding towards the exhibitions that they've done in the past. This time round, I think Rachel was successful with the Art Council, so that's really cool. But yeah, I think Doncaster Trade Union Council has been really important part of this journey that they've been on. So she wanted to give them a shout-out and just to say that, you know, they're also keen for people to know that they're not just there for industrial disputes, you know, although that's what they're there for. They also want to support creatives and artists and community activism in general, you know, and this is something that's really close to Rachel as well. She also wanted to say that, you know, next year is going to be the 25th anniversary of Disabilities Act, you know, all this stuff is really significant and, you know, supporting local artists is kind of close to what I'm really interested in doing and I hope it continues, I hope that other artists support other artists, there needs to be a kind of a synergy between everything that people are trying to do in the city, just to make life better for everyone, I think art plays a significant part in that. So yeah, it's a really cool episode, a really good celebration of Imogen's art and, you know, what can be done when people get together and support each other. So without further ado, I hope you enjoyed this interview with Rachel Horn. Hi, Rachel. Hi. How are you doing? I'm all right. You're back in Donnie for a little bit. I am. I am back in Donnie for a little bit. Before you escape into the world of employment. I am. Going into full-time employment with NHS, so it's a big shift for me, it's a big step in a new direction, because I've been freelance most of my life, working in the arts. Because we met, I think the first time we might have met was at cast with Rosie Lowe. Yeah. Rosie Lowe? Rosie Clark. Clark? Rosie Lowe's a singer. Big up to Rosie. Love Rosie. She was amazing. We loved working with Rosie. We still is. But I remember meeting you both and just lost in the world of creativity and just needed some guidance of where do I go, who do I talk to, and it was just so interested in talking to you guys. The optimism of you can make it and the supportive nature of what you were doing was quite inspiring to a lot of those at that time, actually, and there's a legacy of us that came through early on that have kind of lingered around and tried to do our own thing. So it's the kind of mindset that you both had then to promote Doncaster in the craze in Doncaster was kind of crucial at that point. Those that came then and those that came during the lockdown period and the creatives that came off the back of that were kind of, it became like a partnership between those two runs of creatives and the Western before, obviously. But I think now that legacy of what you guys did is still lingering, is still kind of there. It's really important. But yeah, I suppose what we're talking about today is about Imogen and her and her world of art and what she's about. So first of all, let's introduce everybody to who Imogen is. Yeah. So Imogen's a young Doncaster artist, she's 23. She's autistic, non-verbal with complex learning differences. Yeah. Because we can use the word disability, but actually it's like when you think about what the word disability means, it means that there's like- It's like a barrier, isn't it? It's like, well, there's nothing can be done then. Yeah. But it's just, I suppose, what's been really interested in looking at the art that she's created and after talking to Sue of another is that, no, we're not going to allow anything to stop us just because it doesn't fit with a normal way of people doing things. There's got to be another way for her to access and just be who she is. Yeah. Exactly. And a lot of this work is kind of proving that there is accessibility as possible. Yeah. Despite the limitations that you might find, because Imogen does have, is limited in certain ways. Imogen is, if Imogen goes out, she's supported by two support workers. Yeah. Imogen's had a different education route. She's not had the opportunity to develop her art through college and university and art school, which is the normal route into the arts. So yeah, she faces like she's on a different path, but that hasn't impacted anything in terms of what she's been able to achieve because at the end of the day, Imogen's an artist, she's making art every day. Yeah. She does not stop. Exactly. And some of the, and we made a little short, didn't we, new films and stuff on your phone that you sent me to put together for? We had an exhibition at Cast and a little talk as well. Oh yeah. We did D-30 more. Oh, that's true. D-30. Well, so how last project in 2022 when we all kind of collaborated together? Yeah. So that project was a chance to take Imogen's work from her home. And we had the pop-up studios then in, I forgot what looks Portland, studios. Yeah. So it's amazing. Sat was there. So I took all the work there and I was able to think about it and really think about what Imogen's making, the volume of work and how we could make it into an exhibition at the D-31 Gallery, which was another space, which is closed. Sure. So both their spaces are really pivotal and they're not here. I know. And isn't that a shame? It is a big shame. Well, D, well, Portland was going to be temporary anyway. Yeah. But the point of the project, the point of the funding for Portland was, let's prove the case that we need these spaces for creatives. Yeah. And then surely people will see that and put some funding into something. Yeah. But that never really happened. Yeah. But for the Imogen, what I was going to say was that she can't help but create. Like, I was watching the videos of the stuff that she'd made and looking at how much she'd create it. It's just like in it, like this was like it was always going to happen. I think it helps having supportive parents, right? It helps probably having somebody like you around that is like, you know, guiding her a little bit and, you know, navigating the world, you know, the wider world to make it happen. So how did that start? Yeah. Well, I, at that point, so this is like 2018, I had a shop on the bottom of Coppley Road, which was like a shop studio for Dunkpolic and other projects. We had a lot of like different things running from the space and how long did you have that shop for? 2018, 2019, oh no, earlier, quite a few years, you know, I think we first started, well, again, the thing is, I'm going back to space and I'm part on spaces. So I'd been at Portland in early 2020, 2015. That got kicked out of there, got offered another space that was, worked in other spaces like derelict at church view, no lighting, no heating, all of that, that didn't really work. And so we just moved to Coppley Road and I think it was been about 2015. Yeah. So we just rented a table with three legs and then gradually built up and went from a small table to a bigger table, then went from that to being offered a shop unit and then had the ground floor and we just did so much stuff in there. It was amazing. I loved it. Yeah. It was just like, oh, if you've just, it's like as a creative, you've got some more space, like spread out and do things. So it worked with fluidity at that point curated an exhibition of their art and you know, it's all about treating everyone as artists and with respect and here's some space like showcase. We did Wonky Planet, which was like an alternative music collective that used to come down. We did craft club with June, which was for like local people. And then image is done, Frank is a well-known blues musician in Doncaster. And he worked at Electro Music, which was a big Doncaster institution as well. It was a music shop. So he came over and just said, our daughter, she's 17, we think she's an artist. Would you mind just coming to the house and seeing her work and what she's doing? And I did. And I just saw the image and was like any other artist that I'd ever met. She's like me. She was turning her family home into this creative space as I was really at Don Capolot. And so we were just like doing the same thing really, just in different ways. So imagine how she's like, the living room was just like covered in all the work and she's like made art and put it on the doors, like just really unusual, unique stuff that you've never seen before. Like these micro photographs that she were taking at that time, which she covered in blue tachart and like we just was putting them on the door and then, yeah, then she's just got constantly drawing so there's always like all these really cool drawings to look at. People don't really like know me as a curator but I have got a lot of experience of curating work. And that started from when I was at Union London, because I'm in the North is and I worked at a gallery in Camden for two years and I worked as a junior curator and the curator broke his leg and was off and because I have for some reason, even though I'm like really ADHD and very can be very chaotic, I'm actually really good at organizing stuff. So I took on his role and I ended up curating this amazing show by an artist called Sandra Turnbull. I'm still like, I'm still in friends now who's this amazing woman who was the manager of a very well known 80s band called Eurythmex, which I know I next was a lead singer for. She was like, I'd been in the music industry doing like million pound record deals in the 80s and 90s and then a become an artist later in life and that's when I met her at this gallery. So I ended up like curating, meeting her and curating her work as a really young person. So Sandra's show was really interesting because it was actually about sex workers and it was about erotic dancers, so she'd done all these paintings documenting women. And she said that she wanted a pole in the gallery, so we got a pole and installed a pole. And was it a functioning pole to us? Yeah, yes. So there was like on the launch night, there was a dancer there, dancing and it was interesting to have that experience outside of like a club venue. It was really amazing. I was really into like the trade union movement, as I am still now, as an activist as well. And I ended up going to meet the International Union of Sex Workers in somewhere in East London and once one of those meetings about the sex work industry and their activism, which was so amazing. And they came to the opening night as well and they did this amazing thing where one of their symbols is red on Borellas because it's the symbol of safety and protection and the main activist lady who called herself Eve. She was like, there's people in this room today who are sex workers, they've got red umbrella with them, so you can like talk to them and talk about their experiences. So it was amazing. Oh wow. It was just such an amazing exhibition, the idea of an exhibition just being, let's just display your stuff on a wall, it almost becomes like a live installation of just more than that. Where everybody else can experience the world beyond just the work, like having that experience then leads us to image and like having that wealth of, no, I've got confidence in being able to do this but I'm going to do something that isn't done, which is working with an artist that can't verbally communicate and that is pure, it seems to me purely communicating through this art but she's creating and trying to figure out how to display that to an audience and link an audience to image and world, right? Yeah. So how did that work? I think because I just because I had this amazing experience with this gallery and that was the drive really to have like the shop space or an exhibition space because I just knew it wasn't available. Even at that time, I think even, it was just so difficult to even say you were an artist and like, what do you do? So people, I remember I met someone, not in Donnie but outside and I said, "Oh, I'm from Don't Custom an Artist." And like, "Oh, where'd you go then? How'd you do things? You have to go to Manchester." And I was just so insulted because I constantly met brilliant people all the time that were amazingly creative and there's loads of different legacies of different artists that have done amazing stuff that from Donnie or the family is here or whatever. Which goes to the idea that you don't need an art scene to be an artist. No. You just, and if anything, there's something a little bit more authentic about somebody just living in a world that isn't surrounded by art all the time but has to create whatever it is they need to create. Yeah. And this is what we tried to push in Don Capola and that like, everywhere has artists, you know. This is a fundamental part of a human condition to create. Which goes to the ethos of what Adam, my first episode was with Warren. And he, you know, that was just really interesting to hear him still say, after all this time that he's been working in Donnie, trying to do what he's been trying to do, but him to say that it's inherent in all those like, needing to create is something that we all need to nurture. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I'm just thinking now when I worked at the hospice, because that's working at the I worked at the St. John's Hospice for nine years. And that always was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. And I was working like, as an artist with the clinical team, which was just amazing. And like, I loved it so much. So our opinions were opinions changed during that time, because did you meet people that were like, totally unsure about what you were doing, and then they just totally turned around. Yeah, it was so amazing. And I've never really spoke much about my work there, partly because it is like confidential, but I would meet people that had left school at like 13, 14, 15, and never done art. And you know, it would always be the same conversation. Oh, I would tell her, but if they had done any art, I would tell her, my teacher told me that I was rubbish and I should not come to their class. But I'd always say, well, you know, like, but I bet you like, what do you like gardening or do you like interior decorating or I can see from your clothes, you're really creative. And I just have this way of connecting with people and finding that way. Yeah. And before they'd know it, they'd be on the craft table and doing like doing a painting or, you know, making something for their family and I worked basically, now I look back at it as a qualified like outside therapist. And I think I was just working in this very intuitive person centred way where I would meet someone, speak to them, and then draw out like some creative ideas or creative things that they may be interested in doing. And then it would be a journey with me and them. And it was just the most amazing way I'm feeling so emotional now, because it's, it was such an amazing thing. What a way to make an impact on somebody, isn't it? It was. Exactly. And obviously there's a lot of trauma around, yeah, like end of life, experiencing. I know we've just mentioned we've been through family bereavements and it's so hard. It's such a difficult time for people. So hospice was amazing because I worked in the day service and the inpatient unit. So sometimes I've worked with patients for a long time. And in the early years, I'm working for patients for like a few years or more. So you'd really get to know people and the hospice became like a psychologically safe space for people where it was some respite from family, a chance to like speak to the nurses about any difficulties, any worries, concerns. And then like this, like creative psychotherapeutic interventions that I was doing. And I was, I was, because I couldn't ever afford to study outside psychotherape. It was just like too expensive, because I wanted to do it for like years and years and years and years and years. And I was just kind of reading things online and researching things and trying to like build this practice up in my mind of like what this work is and like how to develop and yeah, which became like my practice there, which I think you do went to goldsmiths. I did. Yeah. So this is that work. And because of everything else that I've done in my career, like which obviously put in your application, I got offered a a scholarship, that's one of the reasons why I went because you got a scholarship and it like there was it took about a third or more off you, you studied it and you'd cost us to study it and so that was like one that made it a bit cheaper for me and then they had all the grants and things. But in order to do that, as it's so expensive, like as well as studying, I had to raise about another £8,000 from different things to grants, hardship funds, like yeah, like it was so mad. So. Here's a question. Was it worth it? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was so hard and I was so crazy to do that because I was commuting and I was in London. How often did you have to go there? Every week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like a normal master's. I thought I was going to learn more about this thing that I was doing, working therapeutically with people, making art, like understanding that academic play. But what I went into is becoming a psychotherapist and doing psychoanalysis, which I didn't have a clue really. Like I knew what psychoanalysis was in terms of like studying, when you study art, like you learn, you learn like theories and things that relate to psychoanalysis and psychology and the human condition, like you come across all that, but I didn't really understand what I was getting myself in for at all. And it was so hard. But then that's given you the foundation of the science of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely like more theoretical. Because you already know the art of it. Yeah. And it's brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. So no one look at it. Yeah. Look at it more from like a trauma, like working with people with experience and trauma and like that containment that the hospice provide and that psychological safe space for people to be creative and the art is I always felt at that time, like when I reflected back, I had this space at the hotspot, which was this table where we'd meet and we'd go on these creative journeys. And it was exactly the same at the shop at Dunke Pollett and I had this table. People come and we go on these creative journeys together. And it was the same sort of sort of thing happening. But yeah, there was so much that I learned from doing those experiences, which I then built on in my master's studies, but yeah, it was insanely hard. And I'm always, if anyone's interested in art therapy or art psychotherapy, want to know what it is, they might want to get into it. Just message me because I'm definitely, I want to, yeah, like encourage people to do it if they feel that they've got like a particular talent for working with people. It's probably something that we need more of anyway, right? Yeah. There's got to be art because as artists, I mean, me doing this podcast kind of shows that I'm really interested in people and a lot of what we get into is a mental health of a creative, especially in Dunkester and what that feels like. And I think this cast got to be a ton of artists out there that would love to help others through this medium and support them through that. Yeah. Yeah. And then we've been connecting with it, with Imogen's work, it's called Arts in Health. And that's a brilliant organization based in London, but works nationally. So anyone can get involved in that and share their practice if they are, if they are working with people or in a healthcare setting or a school. Yeah. Or a school. Imagine schools having an artist. Yeah. Almost like a first aid, you know, like you've just got somebody appointed in a school that comes out and sits with their pupils who might be struggling or... Yeah. It's really interesting. You said that because that's the job that I've ended up doing in Manchester, which is working as their creative psychotherapist in schools. But it's, yeah, like it's, I think that whole area like could be developed so much more. And I do think every school needs a creative psychotherapist or an artist or, you know, like working creatively with the kids because I'm so powerful and parents, I'm teacher. Yes, 100%. Because I'm working with... It's holistic, right? Yeah. Like everybody can benefit and get involved. And I think what schools have done really well is that they have held on to those academic things, you know, that are important, I guess, to a degree, but they've had to, you know, all the arts have kind of fallen away. And those pupils that are now struggling is because they haven't got that outlet as easy. I totally believe in that. So this exhibition that you're now, what's the plan? So obviously when you do a project like this and there's an exhibition, there's usually about, like, you know, there's like a year's worth of work that opens the floor. So that's what I've been doing in terms of, like, raising funds and, like, yeah, like bringing together... So it's for an arts council, right? Yeah, yeah. So I've got Arts Council funding, right? Which... Yeah, so it's a partnership between D-Glam, Imogen and her family and myself. The museum offered Imogen in the space and said that the would like to do an education programme to run alongside the exhibition and a conference on Art, Autism and Accessibility, which is going to be in April. Which we're going to live stream, that's going to be good. I know, I'm excited. So we're going to get people's eyes on this and really draw a huge focus on it. Because that's the other thing, I mean, you can, I've seen it happen so much though. These conferences happen, these talks happen, these things happen somewhere and then it's gone. But to document it in this way, so I'm really happy that you've kind of asked me to come along board and document and just live stream it and do this because I think it takes a while for people to catch on and, you know, sometimes it's timing. Yeah. So if we can just keep it out there and keep it in people's minds, it can only help. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great idea. We've got... It's the capacity is only, like, 40 for the conference room here. So it's like, that's really small for, you know, people might want to watch it, different organisations. I'm just thinking of, like, some of the art psychotherapists that I work with and as well and just artists really, you've got an interest in imaging what she's doing. So who have we got talking, who have you got so far? So we've got, I think there's a podcaster who's like a neurodiversity podcaster. I can't remember his name on the top of my head, but so introduce me to him. We'll stick it in the description so we can click on FANO. Yeah, I'm going to be speaking. We're hoping Dr. Meena Moffert is someone I've met in Manchester actually, who's an accessibility disability expert. She's amazing. She invited Imagine to speak at one of her conference events in Manchester and it was just so beautiful. So how did that work? So I spoke on Imagine's behalf, obviously, but I take Imagine's work and set it up and then I just show the film to be honest, because the film that we made speaks more to Imagine than what I can. Yeah, it lays the ground, doesn't it, and really celebrates who she is, just the person. Yeah, I've shown it quite a few places, I don't even know if I'm officially a release stick because we want to rework the audio on it, but I did show it. But it should be out, well, as people are listening to this, it's out, we'll put a link to it in the description and people can see that. Yeah. That work. Yeah. So that's cool. So you got the conference-y thing, we could have the exhibition as well. Yeah. So who else is working on this project then? There's like four other local people who have worked with Imagine in the past, so this was a chance to refund them, to create a workshop, yeah, like just an opportunity for people to come and meet an artist who's worked with Imagine, and they'll be accessible workshops so anyone can attend. Well, they'll all just take place at D-Glam, aren't they? Yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah. And what's the date? Have we got the date? Well, there's quite a lot of them, and I don't know if I can remember them after from my head. But generally- February is so much, so in April, so it'll be a programme and what- So the best thing to do is to follow Imagine on Insta. Yeah. Is she on Facebook as well? Does she have an Instagram? Yeah, she has Facebook, she has Instagram. So I'll link to all that stuff, so the best thing to do is just follow everything. Yeah. And let other people know, because even if you're directly not connected, I mean, you should get involved anyway. Oh, absolutely. But there are so many people out there that are going to benefit from this. Yeah. It needs sharing. Mm-hmm. Especially something as good as this locally. Yeah. It's quite amazing. Yeah. I mean, the work, just to just talk a little bit about Imagine's art, so I've mentioned that she draws, she paints, she's got pieces on canvas, but then she's got her clay toy wall installation. So, Imagine makes, like, she's made hundreds of clay characters, and I was packing them up yesterday. And when we did the show at D so, there was, like, hundreds, and we couldn't believe. Now, since then, Imagine has been on fire making so many more. So there's, like, yesterday I just kept finding more boxes of clay pieces. So this is, this just to come and see, like, this amazing installation will be-- Yeah. And to see in that way where it's presented, it's celebrated. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Great. Just the capabilities of this young woman. Like, I don't know many artists that produce that much volume of work at the age. So what has been Imagine's reaction to all of this, you know, from the moment that you've met and you started to display her work? Do what's-- have you seen a change in her during that time? Because I think that's important to also acknowledge as well, is how she's changed. She's still, she would have always probably still created this work, but in herself, what change have you seen? Yeah. She's through the art that she makes. Yeah. And you also see it in the way that she, like, responds at home. One of the main things was that Imagine's started, well, Imagine's used as a limited amount of language. She started to refer to herself as artist Imogen. So that was really nice to see Imagine, see her own identity as an artist. So her mom and dad called me artist Rachel and it's artist Imogen. So I feel like there's that, Imogen knows I'm like her and I make artwork and I exhibit it and show it or put it on the wall. And in my studio, again, I have a string of, like, yeah, just like a washing line and I pin my work to it. Which is what you did for her work, right? Yeah, because Imogen did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Imogen did that at home. And then-- And then you've copied it. I've copied actually what Imogen did in my studio, but, like, I think Imogen sees that and knows that, like, we're doing similar things. Yeah. Yeah, and Imogen's inspired my art. Like, I started doing, like, she did these faces and then we sold a very sort of subconscious really. So I wasn't realizing I was doing it, but my master's, I was doing all these. It was all about human emotions. And that's what I felt Imogen's characters are, like, when you see them all together on the wall. And she's inspired by a lot of, like, CBB's in TV show. So you'll recognize the characters, but she does her own versions. Yeah, because you say something about her autism is that she doesn't express emotions or connect with emotions in the same way that we would. So through trying to understand it, she's creating this artwork. Yeah, that's what I sort of felt after that show that really I'm looking at all these characters and they're all expressing these, like, really amazing emotions. But then there was one significant piece which I was really attached to, which was Mort Baby Crying and Imogen watches DVDs on this little screen in the living room. And then she photographs some particular moments. And this is a character, so it's like a bear and bears cry in. And she photographed it from a little screen and then printed it into this little book. And then there's this drawing and this clay piece that accompany it. And the drawings just like this, like this bear that's really crying. And it's such an amazing drawing that she's done, her interpretation of crying. And then that's when I came to this realization, like, because I'm an artist, I know what it's like to be like, what's this about? Like I'm trying to understand it, so I'll write about it, I'll draw it, I'll photograph it. And I just saw that in Imogen's process and I thought that's what she's doing, she's trying to understand, like, more about tears. And then I said that to her dad and Frank, well, well, Imogen doesn't cry, she doesn't express motion in that way, so she's trying to understand it. It's amazing, she's such an amazing person, you know, I get so inspired by, like, what she does. It's pure, isn't it? There's a purity to it, because it's like, I don't know, I'm just guessing all this, but it feels like that she is so focused in what she does, that there's less mess, you know what I mean? There's less rubbish there, she's kind of this pureness to her creation and what she's doing. And that's inspiring, because I think sometimes we can, you know, to get a bit messy with the stuff that we create. I'll get too wrapped up in the things that don't matter, like. Yeah, expectations, like, what, you know, thinking that you have to create something for people. Imogen doesn't care about what anyone else thinks, and that is so liberating, and it's so liberating to hang out with her, because of that, you know, Imogen will, like, come downstairs in just, like, a really cool outfit, like, some giant white plastic boots and, like, white tights. I'm just thinking about a Christmas outfit, and she's just, like, just rocking this amazing look, or she'll do things with her eye makeup, where she'll draw on her own lashes in this really unique way, which looks like avant-garde fashion. Sure. Sue and Frank always describes the moment when Imogen just brought, she'll buy collections of things, so one of the things in the show will be a collection of jelly shoes, it's like 20, and all different colours, and she's been photographing herself since she was a little girl wearing jelly shoes, it's something that she's been really into in the past, just the colours, and wearing them, and it's just a fascination for her, but she also has a huge collection of bows, and a huge collection, I won't say the thing, oh, she had umbrellas, so Sue and Frank said they came downstairs one day, and Imogen had made this, like, installation in the front room with all these giant, brightly coloured umbrellas, and, you know, they didn't break their artists, so they really embraced that, they're just like, oh wow, like, you know, this is... That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. What's really interesting, and I think this just goes to why we create art, and the reason for it, and any form of creativity is just communication at the end of the day, is just trying to tell somebody something, even if it's to yourself. Oh wow, that's so amazing, because it's like what we can't verbalise, we do it because we can't verbalise it. Oh, expressive, in her colours, and try to understand the world, and understand these things that she, you know, even though she doesn't cry, she has that connection between what these motions are, being something, but she's trying to dig into it, because maybe it's just, she sees it as being easily accessible for other people, like, they can just do this thing by car, but there's something there that I need to express, but she does it in these wild ways. Let's see wild to us, but actually, it's just like an explosion of 'no, this is the thing that's going on in our head right now'. Yeah, and we all as artists can relate to that, we get, like, really passionate about something and it's like we need to make it happen. That's a canal. Yeah. It has to. So, in terms of Imogen's parents, he said a dad's, Frank, he's simply blues, what is the instrument, does he play? He's a guitarist. He's a guitarist. So, I mean... He's a singer. He's a singer. Sue, is she creative? Yeah, Sue has been an art teacher for a lot of years at the communication college. So, that makes sense to a degree of, you know, having a great environment, a home supportive environment that understands, you know, having parents who are actually in different fields of creativity, you know, there's an appreciation for the creative process and, you know, the need to create a space and obviously, yeah, how many kids have they got? Two. Two. So, the older brother, what does he do? So, James, he's trained in, I think it was something in my creative writing actually. Oh, okay. So, he's been, like, exceptional, yeah, and in terms of his musician skills, I mean, he's just, yeah, like, exceptional. So, yeah. He was in Manchester now and he's, he's more into tech now, I think. I know, okay. So, he's gone into a different career, career room, but yeah, just another exceptionally creative, talented person. Person. So, what an amazing home to come from, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, that must be inspiring in itself. I mean, I had parents that didn't discredit being a creative in any way, but didn't know how to nurture it. They had no clue. Yeah. They were not familiar with the world. The only soul what they saw in the world is, you know, if you want to make a film, then Hollywood. Yeah. This is obviously a destination. Talking to her parents, what have you learned from them over the time and what have they learned over that time? I think there's just a synergy between us because there are S, M, R, S, M, and R, S. So, they've, they've always been supportive. So, I've said, oh, let's do an exhibition. This is at Dankapolitan on Cockley Road, and I'm, and I'll say, I'm going to get some prints done. And, imagine at that time I'd done this little black rabbit painting, which I was really captivated by because it was just so quick, but like, you could see it was a rabbit and it got smiled and it was really fun image. And I said, oh, I think I'm going to get a projector and do a giant one in the room. And they were like, yeah, that's fine. And then I'd say, oh, I'm, I'm going to hang the washing line and kind of imagine come down. And then it just, again, it'd just be like this kind of exchange between us, like, but we're so, we're being led by Imogen and her art fundamentally. So that's the process, really, but they have been, they've known like what I've been doing as helped Imogen and Imogen's responded to it well. And so they've been back in mid to work more closely with them over the past few years. So that's how it's, it's manifested, really, and alongside that I was doing my training at Goldsmiths. So I'd go to the library and I'd look up like the books on outsider artists, which I really like that terminology. But outside of what? Yeah. So what would you class as the inside is probably the, you know, the well-funded, the prestigious artists had a degree in art that have gone through life quite easily. Yeah. Yeah. Have the easy route through not followed that traditional room. Sure. I guess. And that book, it just talked like about different artists that are in that area. And it spoke specifically about art, like artists with learning differences. Yeah. It just described that lots of people with learning differences will enjoy going to an art class and doing an art workshop. But some are artists and there is no, and there's a big, and there's a distinction there. Right. And I just was like, well, that's, that just aligned to our was experiencing what Imogen does. Yeah. So this isn't going out as a hobby and going and doing an activity. This is like serious dedication to her processes, her work, her media. So I kind of felt like everything I'm thinking was validated by that, even though it was obvious, what I just, I felt like it gave me a way to verbalize it. So I could translate Imogen's experience. And I would say that. And I say that in the film that we met, I said, some, some children got like enjoy making art and some children do not start making art. Yeah. And that's an artist. And that's what Imogen is. She's pretty cool. She's so cool. Honestly, when she's got sunglasses on in her ear, do you found this? I feel like I'm out with a rock star. She's got a cool outfit on. I always look back on photos and I'm like, if it's just got such a cool outfit on and I'm like, got smiling, like not very cool on. It just makes you stand out. Yeah. Yeah. What I find interesting is the collaboration. Oh, yeah. You're not this authority that's come along. You're a collaborator in all of this. Do you feel good about being able to collaborate with her and this building something together? Yeah. But that's part of my practice. And now it's always been. I'm saying, I'll put something in the centre of the work and then I just do all this stuff around it. Yeah. So that's how it's manifested for me. Like, I think it's a very feminist way of being an artist and I've only just started to think about that recently, like how much of a feminist I actually am because I feel it in like, how can I put it? Because I've only just started sort of working this bit out because feminism, when you say it means so many different things, doesn't it? But actually, to me, I see it as a movement of everybody growing together, like everybody in it, like moving on together rather than like, I don't know like that. We're talking early work about that idea. It's not just time for me. No. And that idea of an artist being, you know, you're just there making the work in your ivory tower and then an art collector comes in and then it's sold, you know, like I feel like it's just like very... It's not just the commodity of it. Yeah. Yeah. And although Imogen could be like that because she just turns the work out and if she ever does meet an art dealer in the future and they're like, wants a marketer work and do you not... Well, this is only going to help that. This is only going to, this progression that she's gone on and where she's at. Yeah. It could help to get that right. It's only going to help her get to that point. Yeah. But that's not how I'd... I'm not interested in that. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's not the point. I'm really not interested in that. That's just putting a roof on me. Yeah. I'm interested even in like really working that much with institutions. Yeah. You know, I was... I'm more interested in like the bringing together and the collaboration and everyone grows together and it's public because I'm from like this socialist background, socialist feminist background. Well, yeah. It's people first. Yeah. It's people first. I don't know why I'm seeing this image in my head and I don't know if I'm going off on something else, but... No, go on. Get it out. Rap Game UK. I love Rap Game UK. It's one of my things that I love, right? So it's about rappers in the UK and this year, a female artist won it, right? Okay. So at the end, when they announce in the winner, it's like... Was there some BBC through it? Yeah. I love the lead artist on it, but on it, but I think it seems I'm going to work quite for feminist themes, right, about being a woman and things like that in different guys as of what feminism is, but in it, it was like they invited the three like out of the five to move forwards and then they invited the winner to step forward. So she was at the front and she said, "Can I stand back with everybody else now?" And it was... I cannot get that out of my head because I just thought that is because she wants to be with the group. She wants them all to be... Yeah. You know what I mean? It's so powerful and I just recognise something in myself in that and I don't... Well, it goes to the rewards that we get the first, second, third places that we get in life that it's... Yeah. The perpetual need. The perpetual need. Yeah. The perpetual need to be the winner. Yeah. I did. We're trying to... I've never understood. I've never been in that kind of mindset. No, I've never been interested in competition. It doesn't make any... Don't make sense to me. It's not a drive. Yeah. Right? So I think what I'm trying to say with the image and thing, it's like a lot of images in the centre, it's like rings around it. Yeah. So it's like, I was saying to you earlier, I feel like I sort of had that relationship with Warren and that Warren came up with the idea for Donkapolitan and Urban's Barm and then it was just like rings around that to make it happen. Yeah. And the purpose of Donkapolitan was to raise the profile of the creators in Donkac as well. Yeah. So again, it was never one person. No. This is one thing that I'm doing. Yeah. It's about, no, everybody comes together. Everybody comes together. Yeah. And I think it's very, it's like socialist feminist thing in that that I need to explore a lot more deeper if I get chance because I want to understand more what I do because I'm 40 now and I've been doing this type of thing for 20 years and it's, I've had some amazing experiences like I've had my work in like national news and like, collaborate with God. But I've done all this like stuff like with my practice. But what has been your driver, I think that's what you kind of reflect upon. It's community. And I think it's something you probably need to write down and communicate, you know, through the written word, because then you can reflect on stuff and you'll see the links then as you're doing it. Yeah. That'll be really interesting. Yeah. So it's, it's amazing to be doing this and I'm, I'm really proud of Imogen and like what she does. And it's like a pleasure for me to show off her work and flex some of my curating skills and to also feel like this is almost the end of a chapter in this journey that you've had with Imogen, yeah, at least for now, for now, for now, chapter, everyone will need a rest anyway. Because it's a big deal putting all this on and doing it. So it's like everyone after you always have a bit of a, any creative project, don't you, you need a break after it, but yeah, but I will be moving into something else. So like I won't be thinking as I have in holding mentally, like the work, it'll cause a will at some point. But that's good though. But you need, you need that time away. Yeah. And for the ideas to the rumourate and then when you come back, it will be an evolution of whatever. Yeah. And interested in my new field that I'm going into within the NHS, it's systemic family work, which is all about working with systems and it's more, it's like a different, I've learnt psychoanalysis and art psychotherapist, but it's a different thing. Yeah. But yeah, it's working with families. So, and I've been doing that in my practice in schools, working with children and people, as teachers and the system around the child and you know, it's kind of like building onto that, but in a, in a different, in a different way within the NHS. But I'm sure, you know, as I'm thinking, as I'm doing this new training, I'll be thinking a lot about like past experiences and relationships and community and all of that within that new world. Don't make sense. When you, as we've talked about it through this podcast and you verbalising your, your career and where you've gone to and how imaging has been a major part of that, you know, as a body of what you've done so far, it all makes perfect sense as a story, it just makes sense. Yeah. But I think it goes to as well, you know, you talk about, oh, you know, I need to reflect on my drivers as, as being a feminist or socialist. But I think it goes to that you've just worked off your instinct and what you believe in. You don't, when you're doing it, you don't necessarily have to think too much about why. No. It's all right. Reflecting afterwards. I think that's nice to do. But I think you don't necessarily have to think too much about the why when you're in it. Just believe in yourself and what you're doing and go easy on yourself and just go for it. Mm. Yeah, which I've done. Yeah. For 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. And I need a bit of a rest. Well, I think this is great to have you back in Donnie for a little bit. I love you back in Donnie. Ah. It's my home. Good to see you about. Mm. You've been missed Rachel. Oh, I missed everybody. I've missed. It's been really hard for me. I've really missed everybody. A lot. It's been so. It's been hard moving. But it's been great chatting. Can't wait for an image and celebration. Yeah. So, yeah. Great. Thanks. No worries. Thank you. That was great. I loved catching up with Rachel, not seeing her in ages, I hope she kind of drifts back in and gets involved in some way in the future. But you know, good luck to it with a new role. I'm sure she'll come back with loads of ideas and, you know, the things that she's been up to. Maybe I could catch up with her further down the line. Who knows? So next episode is with David Sanchez, who is a local filmmaker, photographer. He was born in Mallorca. He now lives in Doncaster. And yeah, that's a great conversation that's coming up next. Right. Well, nothing else to tell you, really. I suppose do check out all the links and the information that I've left in the description so that you can check out what image it is up to, all the information that's there kind of supports the work, and I hope you get to check it out and share it. You know, take a few photos or, you know, tell people about your experience of looking at the work and let's get as many people through that door looking at it as we can. That's all I'm going to leave you with this week. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Do share this, do like it, and yeah, do contact me if you want any more information, or you want to chat and reach out. So yeah, that's all from me. I'll catch you all on the next one. [MUSIC]