Rhythms of Grace

S10E13 - Women Should Remain Silent...

Okay, we have talked about the through-story of women in the Kingdom of God, but what do we do with the more explicit verses like 1 Corinthians 14:36? Should women remain silent today? Join Nate, Sung, and Christine as they wrestle with some challenging verses in this week's Rhythms of Grace.

Duration:: 1h 0m
Broadcast on:: 23 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to Rhythms of Grace. My name is Christine and I'm here with Nate. - Yes. - And son. (snoring) - Some feeling, dude. (laughing) - Some feeling. - Ooh, Nate and I both got very little sleep last night. Not together. - No. - No. - And there was a big storm. - Christine, on the other hand, had one of the best nights of sleep in her life. - Yeah, not to brag or anything, but I'm feeling rushed. - So, you're gonna have to take point on this conversation. - Oh gosh, I take it back. (laughing) - Oh boy. - So we've been continuing in kind of a three episode mini-series on "Women in the Bible." - Yeah, it's like a trilogy. - Yes. - Wow. - The return of the queen. - Love it. (laughing) So, yeah, we talked last week about some actual examples of women who have led throughout scripture, but I'm curious. I guess it's not just women in leadership, it's the role of women in the Bible. - Yeah, we talked about in the Old Testament, the New Testament, and today we're gonna talk about some of the passages that people usually disagree on, and sometimes pretty vehemently, and why each side may or may not, and kind of we're gonna break down some of the passages together. - Okay. - Sounds great. So, yeah, so there's a few passages in particular. Let's start off with the first Timothy chapter two, verse eight through 15. And what I wanna do is, again, my memory serves me poorly, but I feel, I think we might've done this in a previous podcast, I don't know, but I'm gonna have, we're gonna go verse by verse. So don't read the whole passage, and then we're gonna say, hey, is this for today, or was this kind of something very specific back in that time? - Sort of culturally specific. - Culturally, yeah, culturally specific. So, let's start off with first Timothy chapter two, verse eight, Nate. - Therefore, I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. That feels pretty universal to me. I feel good about that. - So do you raise your hands every time you pray? - Oh, I do not. - Okay, so yeah, I mean, so this is where it's the general principle of praying. - But not the specific way of praying. - Right, and so right off the bat, you see, it's a common, it's a hybrid. There are things that are very culturally specific, but now we may at times pray with our hands lifted up, but in Paul's, men should. It almost feels like universal, but, and, you know, and if again, if we're gonna take it super literally, then, you know, okay, Nate, when you pray, you have to lift your hands up. Christine, when you pray, don't you dare, right? 'Cause it's just as men. - Yeah, yeah. - So again, in a very patriarchal society, where again, the typical leaders in a church were men, that's also part of the reason too, that it's addressed to men and not women. And so sometimes the more inclusive versions of the Bible, it'll say, you know, men and women are. So, so interesting, right? Yeah, let's go on to verse nine. - All right, verse nine. I also want the women to dress modestly with a decency and propriety, adorning themselves not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes. - Universal, cultural. - Well, modesty feels universal. Again, it's one of those things where it's like, oh, the principle is universal. However, the specific way that Paul is commanding it to be done could perhaps be perceived or interpreted as cultural. - Yeah, like dressing, yeah. Modesty, decency and propriety, all feel like pretty universal words. But then, yeah, the hairstyles, the gold or pearls are expensive clothes, I think. - It sounds like he's a, I mean, this is, he honestly sounds like he's addressing sort of a cultural situation, sort of saying like, don't be like those people, sort of a thing. - Bam, you hit the nail in the head and we'll get to this. - Okay. - But I think that's really key because he, even the dress modestly, it's not just a random, I mean, it is a universal principle at the same time. He is addressing something very specific in the church, in Ephesus and in Corinth. - Okay, and then, I mean, if we go on to verse 10, there's a, like, it's interesting again to, that verse doesn't stand on its own because the beginning of verse 10 says, but sort of saying like, don't do this because I want you to be doing this. - Right, right. - There's a, go ahead, go read verse 10. - Well, I'm sure he says, well, don't, yeah, don't adorn yourself with a labored hairstyle, blah, blah, but instead with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. So that's sort of the contrast. - Yeah, so again, here's the question. Does that mean men are excluded from this command of doing good deeds? - Yep. (laughing) - Nice. - You just get it. - Well, and even the end of verse nine, right? Like, does that mean we should have deacons at the door and say, oh, you know, that dress you're wearing? That looks too expensive, you know, we're gonna turn you away. Or, hey, are those real gold earrings? Or, so again, there is something, and we'll get to this very culturally specific that Paul is actually addressing. And if you zoom out and look at all the letters that Paul writes to the churches, it's like a one-sided telephone conversation, and like a phone conversation, he is responding to, these are churches he planted, so he is responding to things that are going on in that church. So again, we have to understand that. That doesn't mean all of it is relative, but it doesn't mean that all of it is universal either. - Right. And he's addressing probably cultural realities of where that church was planted that are specific to like, how do you be the people of God in your situation? - Yeah. - Okay. - Right, and take, for example, like a city like Ann Arbor, very progressive, theologically, politically, all around, and let's say Paul's writing a different letter to the church in Tuscaloosa. - Yeah. I mean, it's going to be a very different letter, right? And so just as a way of analogy and comparison, like we have to understand that that's what's going on here. So. - Yeah, it's good. I mean, if I think about that specific example again, it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, like the principles are, if you were speaking to two different churches in two very, very different cities, what you're saying about how to be the people of God wouldn't necessarily, it's not like it wouldn't be true, but sort of like the importance of applying it across the board, sort of shifts, depending on where you're sitting. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. And it makes it make more sense why they're like almost seeming contradiction sometimes between books of the Bible where, you know, some people are like, okay, you have to do more works. - Perfect. - 'Cause they're talking to a very different church than the one where it's like, it's not about the works. Calm down. - Right. I think Ann Arbor is a great example where if Paul were writing a letter and he was to say something like, like, you know enough. Like, focus on applying what you know. And then if he was writing a letter to somewhere else, you know, he would say, like, study the scriptures. If you swap that, you know, everybody would be way more comfortable. And everyone would be like, well, look, we're called to study, so that's all we're gonna do. But you can understand how the letter is written to a very, very specific context. - That's a great example. And I remember, Christine, you said this to me recently after a sermon I gave. You made the comments saying, you know, like, I know you well enough song about your views on different truths and doctrines. And the thing that I notice is like, on any given Sunday, let's talk about like God's sovereignty versus free will. You will almost overemphasize, like one aspect, not to the exclusion of the other side, but you're trying to bring a specific point home. And those who don't know you or Grace Church might be like, oh, they're just this one-sided church. And that's not true. And again, like that's, there's both a danger and I think there's both a benefit to that. Because I mean, in any given message, I mean, you don't have time to talk through so many different things. And a lot of times you wanna get to a very specific big idea. So again, very similar here. - Yeah. What I think is funny is that this is not one that I've ever heard argued of like, oh, we should do this. Like, I've never heard someone say like, oh, you shouldn't be wearing, you know, doing up your hair or wearing curls to church. Like, if anything, I was raised, you have to wear pearls to church, right? - Oh, yeah. - Anyway, I just think that's fine. - And do your hair and your Sunday best quote unquote. - Yeah. - Right, that's like, yeah. - Yeah, anyway. - Verse 11 and 12. - Is that mean? - Christine, okay. - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man, she must be quiet. - Yeah, so this is where the debate happens. So there are people who are complimentary and they'll say, well, it says it right there, it's plain and simple. Woman should be quiet. So therefore, she shouldn't preach. She could teach Sunday school. - Right. - Yeah. - She could sing, but yeah. And so what does quiet or being silent mean, right? - And then again, you know, if we stick with sort of the framework that we read the first several verses and I think you sort of like suggested this was coming, but you sort of ask the question, wait, is Paul addressing a specific situation? Like, is there a specific situation he's aware of that sort of is like putting out there as a teaching point? That certainly is what it, that would make sense based on how we just read the earlier verses. - Nate, you are a theologian, man. - Man, that second cup of coffee's starting to work. - Well, and so, yeah, what does that mean? Woman should, what was it, learn in-- - Full submission in quietness and full submission. So yeah, that, so we often talk about like silence and submission and we'll get to this, but I think Paul is actually talking about his emphasis is more about them learning. And because there is a specific situation that we'll get to, but, so that's kind of the big debate. But as you can, as you hear, as we walk through that verse by verse and break it apart, there's a whole mixture of things. And when people say, well, second seven, three, two, verse 11, 12 says this, well, context. Right, what happens when you read the rest of the passage or even the entire book? Or look at the teachings of Paul in general throughout the New Testament. So, and the irony, this is in a different book and we're gonna go to first Corinthians in a little bit, but he talks about women being quiet there too. But the irony though is Paul says that in first Corinthians that women and men should prophesy during the gathering. - Yeah. - So either Paul is like-- - Wish he was. - Yeah, like just all over the place or again, like you were saying with some of the examples, right? It's like he's addressing a very specific thing going on. So, and we talked about this a little bit, I think, my memory serves me poorly, but talked about how it was before, after the fall of mankind, the human kind, right? God, when God says that the woman will desire her husband, that wasn't a prescription. Did we talk about this? - Yeah. - And it was actually more of a prediction of our fallen nature. Kind of saying, hey, because of your brokenness now, instead of being reconciled in mutuality, mutual submission, your desire will be. So, God isn't saying, hey, from now on, you're gonna submit because you're cursed as a woman. He's saying, this is how it's gonna be. And just like he predicted, yeah, men, when you work the ground, the prediction is, this is how it's going to be like. - Yeah. - And so, that's not how we're supposed to live or how we're going to live in the New Heavens and New Earth. - Right, it's not a mandate so much as it is God saying, hey, just so you know, this is what's coming down the pike because of the choices you've made. - Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. - So, we have to take that all in consideration as well, too. Now we're gonna go to a passage in 1 Corinthians where it has some really confusing parts to it. - Okay, what's the chapter? - Oh, actually, it's another, yeah, let's go to 1 Corinthians. 1 Corinthians 14, verse 34 and 35. Actually, the other confusing one is coming back again in 1 Timothy. - Okay. - Well, that's the one about women being saved through childbearing. - Yeah, I saw that, I read ahead and I was like, God, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. - It's almost like, I have more questions. (all laughing) - I'm ready. - So, 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, 34 and 35. Christine, you wanna read that? - I don't know if I'm allowed. - Oh. (all laughing) - Sorry, as well as that's about this passage, okay. Yes, women should remain silent in the churches, which is where we're at right now. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church. - Mm-hmm. Again, if he's saying they should remain silent and then earlier in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, he says, "But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, dishonors her head, it is the same as having her head shaved." So, he's assuming that women are praying and prophesying. And so, how does it, and that's public. You don't just pray and prophesy in private. You're standing up and you're praying or you're prophesying, kind of like speaking the words of God to the congregation, and then he says, well, no, you need to remain silent. Like, he's either a lunatic or we're missing something here. - Right, right. - So, one thing that I hadn't really noticed, again, because usually you hear little bits of this passage and not the whole thing read out, is the central nature of if they want to inquire about something. And the way that that ties into them speaking in churches. - Yeah, 'cause I have been to movies where people are like, wait, what's happening? Who's that? What's that character? What are they doing next? And it is very distracting and frustrating for everyone else who knows what is happening in the movie. - My family will actually tell you that sitting next to me in church is super frustrating because there's a constant running commentary. (laughing) I am always, I've been an insider long enough that now when I sit in the seats, I'm always like, oh, that wasn't supposed to happen. (laughing) - Or she's saying off keys. - That's funny. - So, yeah, my family will say that I am definitely causing distraction in church. - So, Christine, that is a great analogy because let's take that analogy today, right? Like, hey, you should remain silent in movie theaters, right? Like, and yet, if you don't, if you didn't understand the context of it, I will say my kids talk all the time during movies and like, I'm like, shh, I'm like, you're missing, like the conversation, right? Which is why, I know this is Gen Z thing, so I feel young even though I'm not young. Gen Z apparently loves captions. I've loved watching captions. - Me too. - It's the beginning and Amy thinks this 'cause I'm partially hard of hearing, which I am, but it's just like, they put things in there that you kind of miss, like when they whisper things. And so, that's a great analogy. Like, if you just said, oh, hey, you know, Christians, what Christians have done is like, take a statement like that without the cultural context and say, oh, hey, like, and make it, made it like this legalistic, like, oh, you can't talk at all. Like, don't even turn to your neighbor and made it this rigid rule when that statement in a very specific situation is like, hey, don't be distracting, be respectful of the people around you. - Mm-hmm, yeah. - So the thing that's interesting, and earlier this year, Amy and I, with a group of like 40, 50 pastors, took like a, I don't know, nine, eight, nine day trip to Greece and Turkey, which we visited cities like Ephesus and Corinth. And I learned a little bit more, especially in Corinth, it was fascinating. And this kind of ties into what we're gonna talk about too, but as Christianity was being kind of spread throughout the Roman Empire, there was a situation in Ephesus in particular, and Corinth, especially, there was a fertility cult dedicated to Diana in Corinth, and the priestesses of that cult, who were becoming Christians had this whole idea that they, I mean, women were the head, and men were subservient. In fact, the priestesses had, what is it? Like castrated men serve as, yeah, yeah, eunuch, serve as their servants. And so it was almost like they, instead of mutuality, it's almost like a hyper-feminist movement where they were like, nope, the women are in charge. They rejected marriage because of that, because it was below them. They rejected childbearing, which again is a forecast to kind of what we're gonna see in Timothy. So there's this whole cultural reality, and when you go to Corinth and it's there, like the city lays right by the sea, and up on a mountainside is where the temple sat. And so what dominated the entire city was the temple of Artemis. And so that was part of the cultural reality of what was happening in that situation. So you could start to imagine now, Paul who, and the church in Corinth is like, not the godliest church, right? There's incest going on, there's immorality. - New converts. - There are new converts. And so now there are women who are being converted from the temple of Artemis into Christianity. And so not only that, but they would, they would, part of the cult of Artemis was, I mean it was a prostitution was part of the ritual act of worship, which is again, so the priestesses would dress very immodestly. - Yeah, as a part of what worship was. - Yeah, I see. - And they would wear expensive clothes, they would braid the hair. In fact, in another passage, Paul talks about not letting women, letting their hair be let down. Like don't let your hair down. Why? Because, I mean, again, if we read that without context, really literally, we'd be like, "Hey, women, you know, you can't." - Yeah. - Comes only. - Yes, because it was prostitutes, let the hair down. - That wore their hair that way. - Yeah. So when you understand some of the realities there, and some of the immorality that is going on in the church of Corinth and Ephesus, you start to begin to see like, "Oh, yeah, there are universal things that Paul is dressing." But there are some very specific things that Paul is trying to teach. - Right. - The young church in Corinth about what it means to be followers of Jesus. - Right, yeah. - Yeah, so all right, this is gonna be TMI, but I'm gonna share it anyways. It's not about me, but I remember, I remember, I'm gonna do it. We're going for it. - Okay. - In college, we learned about a culture, an indigenous culture, I think it was in the Amazon. - Yeah. - It was in the Amazon. And they were naked all the time, but the men, this is again, TMI. They like tied their penises in a specific way, as like, it was like how they dressed. And if it came untied, everyone was like, "Oh, it was like super immodest." But it was literally like, they were still naked. You know what I mean? It just like, that was their definition of modesty. - Right. - So when you think about how cultural that is, and the issue of every culture has an understanding of modesty, and you can sort of say, you can see that Paul is saying, "Yeah, like you're supposed to be modest." Like, that's appropriate. But to sort of say, you wouldn't go to the Yanomamal people and say, make them, actually, a lot of missionaries did this, make them live according to sort of this specific application of modesty. But that doesn't mean that modesty is off the table. It simply means like Paul was making a very specific application of modesty for that culture. - Yeah, that's a great example. I mean, even when I think of today, right? Like, I remember having this conversation, I don't remember the context, it was several years ago, but like I was talking to an older gentleman, and we were talking about modesty in church. And so I remember asking him like, "Oh, what does like in modesty look like for women?" And he said, "Spandex." But then again, like you talk to a Gen Z, you know, young woman, "Hey, no big deal, what's a big deal, right?" And yet like just the very form-fitting kind of, and so just even among the same culture in different generations, and between men and women, it's very different. So right, yeah. - Yeah, and when I think about, I don't know, like these different passages I think about like, I think some of them are be modest to the most conservative of you. You know what I mean? Like I think sometimes Paul will say like, yeah, do not by doing whatever cause your brother just stumbling, and he sometimes will take those paths, which I think aren't necessarily universal. We should all be maximum conservative just in case anyone. But there are also times like, you know, I think about the mission trip. We are always a lot more conservative with the dress code for the mission trip because we're gonna be working with people where we don't know what their cultural expectations are. And so yeah, knowing that there's like a flexibility to what that can mean, even from context to context. - Right, and even understanding that it's like being super conservative isn't more right. In fact, the way that Paul lays it out in those verses is like, hey, the people who need this hyper, hyper sort of call it legalism or whatever is actually the weaker brother who's prone to stumbling. So it's not like you're not moving towards holiness by doing that, you're sort of like making allowances for the weaker among you, which again is not the way that things like modesty are often put forward. It's often put on the person who they say is being a modest. Sort of like you're the problem. And Paul's sort of saying, no, no, no, the people that can't deal with these other things, they're actually the problem. - Right, right. Yeah, and the other thing that's interesting is, especially they're called the new Roman women among Bible scholars or what cultural analysts, when it comes to Ephesus and Corinth and just that whole area. But there was a tendency, because again, the followers of Artemis had a certain way of dealing and even worshiping where the women would just seize kind of the podium. And anytime the Republic addresses, there were instances. And in fact, Xenophon of Ephesus actually writes about this. So this is not even just Paul of women just kind of like snatching the podium because they just wanted to say something. And so that was a common occurrence as well as, and this is interesting, Caesar Augustus himself wrote into law, Roman law, because this was getting out of hand of how women were to wear a dress in public and how prostitutes and adultresses were to dress. - Really? - I mean, imagine that. So when you understand, this was an issue that even at the top of the Roman Empire, a Gus is making laws about this. You start to see, oh, okay, Paul, I think, yeah. Like there are things he's saying that is true universally. But there are things he's trying to say specifically in this situation. And I think the context for Paul's statement about being silent because taking his statement back from Second Timothy that they should learn in quietness and submission. And so imagine you're a new convert from the Temple of Artemis. You don't know much Christian doctrine. Your practice is just to kind of seize the pulpit 'cause women have the right to speak. In fact, men are stupid, right? And women are the ones that have the power and the authority to speak. What he's saying, and this would be true not only for women in general, because, I mean, why doesn't he say to men? Because back in those days, it was only men that were allowed to be educated. But he's saying to the women, like, hey, until you learn more and become educated, you need to learn, kind of be quiet and learn. And I could think of even an example here at Grace that we've, I don't know if we've done, but as we grow and expand, so for example, we have a teaching team that meets every week over Zoom on Tuesdays. And there's like five, six of us, right? And now there's influx of newer staff coming on. We have people who are gonna be kind of associate disciples who are gonna be preaching more. And so we had this conversation, like, hey, do we invite them to be around the table and have this go from like six people to like nine people over Zoom, right? And part of what we said is like, well, we're not sure, because you don't wanna make the call so big, and so part of the discussion has been like, well, okay, if Christine is preaching, she should speak, she should share what she's gonna talk about. But other than that, if you're kind of like an apprentice kind of discipleship pastor, you sit there and you're quiet. You don't talk. But if you sort of communicated that sort of like, associate pastors don't have a say, and you make that universal, it's like, well, what the heck? But there's a specific situation of new staff and a growing call. So again, it's just so helpful to sort of take two or three steps back and look at the landscape and place the commands or the recommendations or the, you know, whatever the call of Paul into that landscape and say, oh, this is actually where it fits, right? - Well, and then it makes other, like the rest of the chapter make more sense. Like when it says after that, or did the word of God originate with you or you the only people it has reached. If anyone thinks they're prophet or otherwise gifted by the spirit, let them acknowledge that what I'm writing to you is the Lord's command. But if anyone ignores this, they will be ignored. And thinking about, oh yeah, if, you know, priestesses from the Temple of Artemis were seizing the pulpit and saying, this is what is true, but they didn't know anything yet. All of a sudden this passage just, it makes sense why that flowed out of women should remain silent in church, which previously I could never quite figure out how those two fit together. - And then actually it's interesting that he wraps it up sort of like almost like pulling back on how severe his initial call was where he's like, therefore my brothers and sisters be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking and telling. In other words, in these church settings, brothers and sisters be prophesying. But then he just says, but just do it like in an orderly way. - Yeah. - Sort of saying like, come on folks, like help me help you type of thing. - I think that's the entire point, right? 'Cause when you imagine all these new converts from the Temple of Artemis and he's saying, hey, do it in order. He's not commanding a universal silencing of all women at all times forever. - Right, right. - And I would even say today, basically his thing is like, hey, you shouldn't be teaching and speaking. 'Cause he also talks about another passage is like, hey, like you should be more afraid of teaching, because now more is expected of you. So, hey, don't teach unless you have some grasp of doctrine and theology. And I would say today that would also apply to men. - Yeah. - So again, bringing it to our context, it's men and women, and again, Western church, it's a bit different than, let's say, the underground church in China or something. But usually, like in our context in the US, it's like, yeah, there are very specific people or staff or pastors or elders that speak, and it's not just anybody. And part of it is, yeah, there's a season of preparation and learning and growing. Sometimes it's seminary, sometimes it's not, but again, like until there is some sense of authority and credibility, you're not just gonna let anybody speak. - Yeah. It is interesting also that he sort of, when you read the entire passage, there are things that he was saying, no, like, don't do this, but it's okay to do this. It's not like a universal silencing. He's sort of saying, like, look, church is not the place that you ask questions about things you don't understand. It's not the place where you sort of like seize the pulpit, but if you wanna prophesy or if you wanna pray, like do it. So it's an interesting, it's not even a, specifically like gender mandate, as much as it is sort of like, this is what the church services should contain. Like, this is how we're doing this. He's saying that every bit as much as he's saying anything, or maybe even more so about gender. - Yeah, yeah. Now, I would say this too. If you totally disagree with this and you're what we would call a complimentarian, like, you're like, nope, I disagree with that. And here's the reasons why, like, that's fine. You know what, we still love you. And we, like, this is the entire issue for me. There are Christians who would divide and say, like, hey, if you take the issue of, like, saying women are allowed in leadership and whatever, that's just like a slippery slope. Next thing you know, you're gonna be all liberal, you're gonna deny the word of God, all that kind of stuff. Like, and I've actually experienced this too, where I'll talk to somebody who has a very more complimentary view of women in leadership. And I'll be like, hey, I'm okay with your point of view. My question is, and it's usually they're the ones who don't have a harder time with, you know, the opposite. Like, so I think it's like, hey, you can have differing views on this. I'm not gonna call you sexist or, like, again, some people will, right? And I think that's just as ungodly to be like, oh, those sexist pigs who don't allow women in leadership, hey, man, get off your own high horse and just watch the finger that you're pointing, right? 'Cause, again, I would say I think they would be an error in terms of interpretation, but I think we can be an error in terms of our judgment and reaction to them as well. - Yeah. - Like, this has, this way of reading the scripture, I feel like as we work our way through issue after issue, it has a long-reaching effects that I'm interested to see as we sort of navigate all the upcoming issues, you know? Because in some ways, it feels much easier to just read the words and apply them explicitly. But when you start bringing cultural context, and I can understand why this is concerning, it's concerning to me to sort of say, like, well, where does that stop? You know, like, you take what feels like a very clear line, and suddenly you're living in this broad shade of gray that can feel very uncertain, and that can feel very, very scary, especially if there are issues that you either have a personal experience in or you feel particularly passionate about or whatever, living in that gray area can be very, very uncomfortable. - Yeah. - That's a great point. And I would say particularly for those, and I'm included in this too, who have grown up in a way that was different, this can feel threatening, so. - And I think in those moments, it helps me to back up to the XYZ principle of like, okay, there's so much cultural context, and with this one, I don't even know the cultural context. So let me back up and just look at, what's the story of women throughout scripture? And where is that trajectory and where are we now? And for me, with a lot of those tough issues, I'm glad, I don't know, since we started working through all of these, that's been like, okay, let me return to this. Yeah, which I found helpful to kind of like, okay, there's a line, you can have these connecting points and you can see the trajectory. - I think it's also helpful to sort of enter this process with a tremendous amount of humility, because again, the XYZ principle that says sort of like, X was the culture in which the scripture was written, why is sort of like God beginning to lay out his plan for around specific issues or commands? And Z is sort of the final destination when all things are as they should be. To understand that like, as much as we would like to think, we are, we are not living in Z. So we need to embrace this, these are our beliefs, our interpretations, with a tremendous amount of humility, saying like, look, we are doing our best to stay on the trajectory of the kingdom of God. But that doesn't mean that we're not, you know, in 100 years, they're not gonna look at back at this podcast and say, oh my gosh, they were like so far in left field, you know, it's really, it's really possible. And I think we should remember that and just let it keep us humble. - Yeah, absolutely. - Yeah, that's good. One last passage. First Timothy, chapter five. - Well, starting verse 11, 11 and 12, Nate. - As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list for when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves because they've broken their first pledge. Am I reading the right verse? - Mm-hmm. - Okay. - Yeah. (laughing) I'm thinking like in the right place here, 13 as well. - No, let's pause there. - Okay, okay. So he's talking to young widows, who, again, this is interesting. - Yeah. - My first question was gonna be like, what's this list to speak so far? Does grace have such a list? (laughing) It's like a widow list, right? Because again, in the early church, they would feed the widows and-- - Oh, right, sort of like this is the list of people that we are caring for. - Yeah, yup, okay. And so this will kind of lead into kind of the next episode where he talks about these widows. They have these sensual desires and it overcomes their dedication to Christ, right? So there is a sexual ethic here, even among these widows. And he's saying, look, they've brought judgment on themselves. And so it's just, and the sexual lifestyle is not the whole point here, okay? As much as what he's gonna start talking about, but it's just an interesting context. These are widows, a group of young women with well-known reputation of kind of public sexuality or promiscuity. So that is among the church in Ephesus. He's writing to Timothy, who is kind of like the pastor of the church in Ephesus. So again, even there, and again, when you think about the new Roman women, whether it's them or whatever, these are new believers who are come to this new faith that is just spreading like wildfire. I mean, imagine if you had like gang members or prostitutes becoming Christians all of a sudden, like in day one, they show up in your church. This is a broad generalization, but like, I imagine gang members might not know, like, hey, man, you can't be bringing guns and knives in here. - Yeah. - And the prostitutes might be like, hey, I don't have anything else other than this short skirt. - Right, right. It's fascinating, again, like this, the issue of this list, it's, when you read the previous passage, it's almost like he's creating a context for people who are supported by the church and in return, dedicate their lives to serving the church. Like, that's really what the list seems specifically of, 'cause it's gotta be people who don't have any living family who are really in need, and then who sort of spend their lives, this is like a versus 10, verse 10, bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the Lord's people, helping those in trouble, devoting themselves all kinds of good deeds. Sort of like these are the women that we as the church are supporting. If they have family, the family supports them. And then he's sort of saying, if they're young, they're gonna wanna get married, so don't put them on this list, because they're gonna wanna get married, they're young. - Yeah, and it clarifies, again, just seeing how important context is, where I was like, wait a second, is this saying, like, getting married again as a widow, is a sin, because Ruth got married again after her, you know, like, your mind starts going down that kind of spiral and realizing, oh, no, it's, if you make a dedication to spend your life serving God's church, and then you decide, oh, I'm gonna break that vow, then there's, you know, a sin element. But again, just how important context is. Verse 13, Christine. - Oh, okay, we're still going. Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house, and not only do they become idlers, but also busy bodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to. - So now, read that, or think about that passage in the context of the new Roman women. - Yeah. - Who are now, who all of a sudden are widows or whatever, right? Now, they're, they got nothing to do. They're not priestesses anymore. They're going from house to house. They're being busy bodies, idlers, and they are talking nonsense. So this is not a combination of women. - Mm-hmm. - Like, you know, 'cause, you know, I can imagine some, I don't know, ignorant male pastor being like, oh, these women, they're just busy bodies who talk nonsense. - When their own busy bodies and idlers. - Or like, yeah, any woman who doesn't have a man who's going to have, yeah, yeah. - Like, that is not the context here. So again, this is Paul's instruction to a young Timothy about how to handle, again, in Ephesus and Corinth, in particular, these new converts. And again, the whole, like, they're going house to house and they're talking nonsense. He's talking about theological. Not so much just like they're just doing idle chatter. Like, oh, like a woman's tea. Like, that's not the point here. - Yeah, yeah. - So I think the other thing that's fascinating is that in some ways, you can also look at it almost as like a maturity issue where he's sort of saying, like, look, these widows who have taken the time to learn, 'cause he says, like, get married, manage it home. And, you know, sort of like, who have learned to discipline themselves in the service of others. He's sort of like, yeah, those are the women that we can support. But, like, almost saying, like, the church isn't the place to train these women to be this way. Like, there's already a place for that. And so let them do that. And it's almost, again, it is as much about maturity as it is about gender, if at all, you know. So you're saying, like, look, these women who are over 60, they have raised their homes, they've managed their household. They know what it is to care for other people. They've learned to sort of discipline themselves in acts of service. Yep, those are the people that we want to be supporting. Everybody else, like, learn how to do that. And then you can get on the list, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. First 14, Nate. Oh, shoot, I closed my phone. If any woman who is a believer, oh, that's 16, sorry. So our council younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. So here's a question, is Paul demanding that all women everywhere marry, have children, manage their homes? I think so. That was sarcastic, in case that didn't come through. I noticed the word council, which I feel like is an unusual, I feel like usually Paul is like, so women everywhere should. Yeah. But he's like, listen, I would advise. Right, sort of like, this is a wise thing. This is probably the wisest choice for you in this cultural context, in this stage of your life. Right, and especially in the context of young widows or new Roman women, he's saying, look, who want to end marriage and childbearing? Hey, look, as you integrate into the Christian community, this is what life for you as a woman, as a beloved woman, in the community of God looks like, or could look like. So he's saying, hey, these are things that you should pursue, if you're leading this promiscuous sexual lifestyle, like, hey, you should get married. And he's not saying, like, yeah, and in fact, Paul says in other places like, oh, actually, marriage is a gift, but even better, is if you were to remain celibate, right, single. So now with that, let's go back to second Timothy. We started here about the woman should be silent. But verse 13 and 14 and 15 is where. Chapter four? I'm sorry, first Timothy chapter two. Two. Verse 13 and 14 and 15, because now with all context of Roman new Roman women, all the instructions that Timothy, this was the passage that we talked about in the beginning about women should learn in quietness and submission. Okay, first Timothy. First Timothy. Oh, oh, sorry, first Timothy. I was also, but I'm there now. So I can go for it. Okay. All three verses? Just 13 and 14. Okay. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. Now you read that and you're like, what? Yeah. Like that seems pretty chauvinistic. Yeah. Yeah, legitimately, I think first Timothy too, this section about a woman should learn in quietness. For Adam was formed first, then Eve, that was like the biggest, this has been the biggest passage that when I was deciding whether or not to pursue seminary, it was like, well, for Adam was formed first, then Eve, that feels like a universal law. Like he's talking about this is how it's been since the beginning. So anyway. So how would that be reinterpreted if he was speaking to the situation about new Roman women claiming that the gender order should be reversed? Yeah. I mean, it makes a difference, right? Because he's saying like, no, this doesn't like erase the creation of gender. This doesn't erase the fact that there is a mutual submission and that both are a part of the story. There's a, there's some of it that feels, and again, this is like, we're living in the broad gray that we talked about, but it feels a little bit like Paul is encouraging the pendulum to sort of swing like the other way, you know, sort of like in that culture and context that it swung really, really far. And he's sort of like arguing for a corrective swing, which can feel really intense, but if you see that he's trying to bring balance back, not simply argue for the other extreme as the way that things should be, it's sort of, again, I appreciate we're living in the gray here, but that's sort of what it feels like. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think that happens even today. I mean, in churches and definitely a grace, right? We're constantly kind of, and whether you're meeting with an individual or when you think of, let's say, a group, there's always some kind of tempering or swinging back the pendulum that you want to do. So, verse 15, which is admittedly pretty confusing, but women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Didn't you say that the cult of Artemis believed that like bearing children was like, like not off limits, but like beneath them? Yes. Okay. To the point where, and here is a New Testament allusion to abortion, where they would actually terminate pregnancies because they saw that as beneath them. So marriage, childbearing were things that was, again, that may seem very unfamiliar in our culture, but if you take, just imagine being in that culture where women kind of dominated everything. Paul is saying, look, he's saying, let me say this. I don't know that scholars actually know exactly what Paul is saying, right? So I'll say that first off, but I don't think he's saying, hey, you're going to be saved in the way he talks about justification in Romans through childbearing. He's saying, look, I mean, we say this too, like you could be saved in a salvific way, or you could be like, hey, save your family by stop drinking, right? Or even to say like women, 'cause it's not just a single phrase, it's not, women will be saved through childbearing, full stop. It's women will be saved through childbearing, if. And you almost can, like, bear with me as I live in the gray once again, but not salvic, but sort of like sanctified, sort of saying like, look, you will be sanctified through childbearing as you learn to like serve others. And as you learn to, as he says, if you continue in faith, love and holiness, and sort of saying like the family is an amazing place for those things to be wrestled through, to be refined, to develop in you, and women can experience some level of sanctification of their own character through those efforts. - That's yeah, that's great. - Well, and it's also interesting to remember like he's writing to Timothy who is pastoring these people and is just like, what do I do with these women who are just like making trouble and causing a ruckus and also seeing it as like an encouragement to him of like, no, these women, like, even if you can't, if they're not listening to you, like encourage them in this path because they will experience rowdy children just as like, you know, these people, you're rowdy children, they will experience that for themselves and experience the faith and love and holiness that can come out of that. - Yeah, yeah, that's so good. Go ahead, go ahead. - No, go ahead. - I was just gonna say, remembering again who Paul is writing this to is also a really helpful framework for understanding it that, you know, like, I know that things are said in a church staff meeting that are not communicated on stage to everyone. - Yeah, yeah. - It's sort of like, look, there are things that you say in leadership discussions that inform what is often a much more measured graceful sort of understandable communication to the church in general. And he's sort of saying to Timothy behind the scenes like, hey, bro, like, look, man, this is really, this is really where we're at, try this sort of thing. - And he's almost saying to Timothy, hey, you need to encourage these women and tell them that being married and being a mother is a worthy calling. - Yeah. - Because they've taken it so far to one end. I mean, you could, I mean, it's not to the same extent, but, you know, like in our day and age, like the working mom, the working woman is like, kind of what a lot of women, especially in this area, strive for, right? - Mm-hmm. - And there's almost a sense of like, oh, you don't work, you're just at home. So in a not exact one-to-one, but you take that and put that on steroids and that's a cult of Artemis. - Yeah. - And saying like, oh, being married and being a mom can actually be a worthy calling instead of something that you just put down. - Right. - Yeah. So again, context here. One last verse I want to jump to. First Corinthians 11.6. And this harkens back to kind of when I was in Pennsylvania, the Mennonite area that I was, that was there. - But for if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. - Yeah, and so there are some churches and traditions where they do that. - Yeah. - Women cover their heads, again, this is kind of like the Amish or the Mennonite community, like old Mennonite, where not only do they do that, but if you're really conservative, you have women sitting on one side of the church up you and the men sitting on the other. And they would say, yep, look, here it is. First Corinthians chapter 11.6. - Yeah, my mom's church that she became one of the worship directors there after they had just split over this issue where the hat-wearing side ended up going one way and there was them. - Interesting. - Anyway, it's just a personal connection to this verse. - Yeah, so again, he's writing to the church in Corinth and letting your hair hang down was a sign that you were a prostitute. So when Paul says this, it is in response to a very culturally specific situation going on. And to say, hey, because there were also culturally conjectures or rumors of the Lord's table and the Christian worship being this sexual festival because you would have women come in with a hair let down and all this dressing in modestly. And so, I mean, more well known and more people may have heard this, but the first century church was accused of being atheists and cannibalists because they would eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus. So they were like, oh, the Romans thought they're cannibals. And because they didn't worship the multitude of gods and just worshiped one god, they were labeled atheists, ironically, by the Roman Empire. And so here he's saying, look, don't put the reputation of the gospel at stake by making outsiders think that we are like this flaunting, sexually over kind of place. Now, here's the, I think the kicker for me when you relate that to today's world. I would almost say that if you insist on hood coverings that it may have the opposite effect when it comes to the reputation of the gospel with the watching world today, as much as it did like letting your hair down back in the first century. - Yeah, like it says much of a confusion for the outside world about what we actually are about as it was. - Yeah, yeah. - So today, to demand that women do this or you live by this would turn off the very people to the good news of Jesus, which again, seems like, oh man, like, 'cause it seems to go almost the opposite of the plain reading of Paul's command there. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay, so, and we've been talking a long time, but this is the crazy thing about cherry-picking verses because if you just read that section about head coverings and you don't move on, like beginning in verse seven, Paul goes in what feels like a completely different direction. Where he says woman is the glory of man, for man did not come from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head because of the angels. I don't know what that means, but he is arguing for women to have a measure of their own authority. - Yeah. - Nevertheless, in the Lord, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman, but everything comes from God. He's sort of like arguing for inequality. - Yeah. - That's like really feels, you can't read those first verses without, he does this all the time. That's an illustration of the next point. You have to read that, I think like wait, Paul is in some way arguing for a measure of equality here, because that's how he wraps this up. And so you have to read it in that context. If you don't, it ended up with a very, very different take. - Which in that period would have been so unheard of to consider your wife that glorious, because, and I don't remember offhand who said this, but it was like, it was some non-Christian person, but they said something like, it was back then, you married not for sex, not for love, not for enjoyment, you married a woman simply to bear children, because as a Roman senator or whatever, you had your own concubines for sex. Or you had other young boys for sex. You did not marry your wife for that purpose. And so now, policy in that context, your wife is your glory, and she has the same authority and you are to be mutually exclusive with each other, and have a mutuality when it comes to authority. That is like a big stumbling block to the Roman world, man. So again, for us, it's just like, yeah, so to say that Paul is chauvinistic is we are misreading Paul. - And misreading the context of scripture, like we don't have, yeah, we're missing big chunks. - I feel like we could keep going, but I know we've been talking for an hour, and I don't even know how to wrap this up. Christine? - Oh, well, we've all had an equal amount of coffee, but I'll still take a shot at it. So yeah, I think what I've seen is just that yeah, like the context matters and that I would just encourage everyone to spend some time in scripture and actually exploring not just those verses, but the surrounding passages and the ways they shape it. Because it does seem that often those things that we read as mandates from Paul are almost always illustrations of a larger point that he's trying to make, and that larger point is where we should sit. - Yeah. So we will leave you there for this week, but we'll see you next time. - I need a nap after that. - Another big one, yeah, so see you next time. (gentle music)