Michael Shannon grew up a kid of divorced parents, shuttling between Kentucky and Illinois and never quite fitting in. In his conversation with Rachel, the "The Shape of Water" and "Boardwalk Empire" star discusses his experience being a "loner" in childhood, and finding solace in the music of R.E.M. and acting. He also discusses how his directorial debut, "Eric Larue," brought out his inner child.
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Wild Card with Rachel Martin
Michael Shannon thinks you look ridiculous when you shout
- Okay, so does this sound like you? You love NPR's podcasts. You wish you could get more of all your favorite shows and you wanna support NPR's mission to create a more informed public. If all that sounds appealing, then it is time to sign up for the NPR Plus bundle. Learn more at plus.npr.org. - What does age teach you about love? - Oh my God, you know, when you're young, love is very self-serving and then as you get older, you realize that it's probably ultimately more important to love others regardless of what you get in return. - I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. (upbeat music) Each week, my guest answers questions about their life pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is actor Michael Shannon. - The primary thing that an actor is supposed to do is disappear. So I'm basically like disappearing all the time or attempting to. - Michael Shannon's first role in a big movie was as a young newlywed in Groundhog Day. It's a small part and his big moment comes when Bill Murray's character hands him a couple tickets to the local WrestleMania event and Shannon goes berserk with glee. And I am daring you to go back and watch that scene and try to take your eyes off him. There's something in Michael Shannon's eyes that makes it impossible to look away and it's no small thing to do that when sharing a scene with Bill Murray. And it's like that in every movie he's in. Like the 2008 movie Revolutionary Road, which stars Kate Winslet and Leo DiCaprio, two of the biggest names in the business. But Michael Shannon steals every scene he's in. His unintentional thievery continues in the 2016 film Nocturnal Animals or the HBO show, Boardwalk Empire. And he was hands down the best thing about the Hulu show nine perfect strangers in my opinion. I could go on. His eyes, yes. And his ability to rage on screen is unmatched. But what really pulls you into one of his performances is the tenderness underneath it all. To occupy both those emotional places simultaneously, well, that's why none of us can look away. Michael Shannon is turning his own eyes behind the camera in his newest project. It's a movie called Eric LaRue and it is his directorial debut. And Michael Shannon is here right now to play wild card. Hi. - Wow, what an introduction. Thank you, Rachel. - You're very welcome. Are you a Michael or a Mike or depends on who you're talking to? - I let whoever's talking to me pick, whatever comes off trippingly off the tongue. - Okay, we'll see. Do you have a middle name? - Corbett, it's a family name. When I was a kid for a little while, I thought my middle name was Corvette, but I was mistaken. - Well, I'm sorry. I'm sure that was a grief you had to work through. - Yeah, it was a hard process. - Yeah. - Okay, so are you ready to play this game? - I'm ready. - First three cards. Here you go. One, two, or three? - Three. - Three. What do you admire about your teenage self? - Oh, what a lovely question. Well, I was a survivor, I'd say the years from like 12 to 16 were real gauntlet. Because my mother lived in Kentucky, my father lived in Chicago. So my childhood I spent in Kentucky with my mother, but when I started high school in my adolescence, I moved up to live with my father. And that period of time is when I started getting into acting. And I guess I had some guts to get into that, just showing up and auditioning for the school play and getting little opportunities to do that. And then after I got out of high school, I was still a teenager and I was in Chicago. And I started going down into the city and auditioning for plays in the city and started getting parts in very small like storefront theater productions. And that took a fair amount of guts, I think. - It does take a lot of courage to stand up on a stage and try to inhabit another character at that age. Take scuts. - Yeah, well, I think maybe I didn't feel like I had much to lose, you know? I was like, I was kind of a loner, I guess. When I was a kid, I was kind of awkward to begin with. It didn't really matter, I guess, at the end of the day, whether they thought I was, you know, good or not, didn't really didn't make a difference. Which is pretty mature to have that revelation as a teenager, is that still something that you're like, yeah, it doesn't matter. I'm good. - Well, I don't know. I mean, a lot of these projects are a lot of work. You put a lot into them and it can't help but smart a little bit if nobody pays any attention. But I've been doing this now for, geez, almost about 35 years. So yeah, I'm pretty, I've, you know, I've gotten rave reviews, I've got terrible reviews, I've gotten indifferent reviews. I've, you know, it's kind of, I've seen fire and I've seen rain, you know? So, you know, yeah. - Okay, this is the last question in this round. - Okay. - One, two, or three? - Three. - Wow. What's something a parent figure taught you to appreciate? - Oh, that's deep. That's really deep. Parent, and it's interesting 'cause you say parent figure. - Yeah. - So that doesn't necessarily mean parent. - It doesn't because some people have situations where their parents aren't the ones who are teaching them to appreciate things. So, you know, we choose the words carefully. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is fascinating that I can't come up with an answer to this question. I mean, I guess maybe the reason I'm struggling with it is, is my parents are so different from me. Like, they live very, they live very different lives and they had very different priorities, I think, than I do. But I was very, when I was living in Chicago, I was very close with my father and I mean, I get my appreciation of jazz, definitely from my father, because my father had a huge collection of music. And I discovered a lot of my favorite music from listening to his CDs. And we would also watch, he would show me movies. He really did educate me about culture, even though he was terrified that I was becoming an actor initially, because he thought I would, you know, would be destitute or something, but... - That's pretty remarkable that even if your relationship ended up being strained, you just credited him with giving you the two big loves of your life in terms of movies and acting and music. - And music, yeah, it's true. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Okay, so we're gonna pull back a little bit and talk about your work, your creative life, because you've got lots of stuff cooking right now. You're about to go on tour with your REM cover band, which we will get to in a moment, but you also have this new film out, which you directed, it's called Eric LeRue. And to just give a quick summary, it's about a mother who is trying to deal with the fact that her teenage son murdered two of his classmates. So this is, it's a very sober movie. It's emotionally complicated. - Yeah. - And you were in charge. You were the director of this thing. Did you find that you were well-suited to this task directing? - Oh, well, it's strange. Yeah, I showed up for the prep period. I was pretty well-convinced that I had no idea at all what I was doing. They gave me a little office with a desk in it. I said, "Okay, here's your office." And I would sit at the desk and look around and think, "This is a mistake." (laughing) But then we started scouting locations and it started to click for me. Like, I remember when we were looking for the house, the LeRue house, their home, and the production designer put together this big, long list of homes to look at. And, but as soon as I walked into the first house, I said, "This is the house, this is it." And the production designer and the producers, they were like, "Wow, it's really small. It might be hard." (speaking in foreign language) I said, "Well, I understand that and I agree with you. It will be hard, but this is the house." And they said, "Well, we have like 10 other houses to look at. Can we at least look at them?" And I said, "Okay." And so we drove all over Wilmington, North Carolina, where we shot the film and I looked at all the other houses and there were some very nice houses, beautiful. And, and we got to the end and they said, "Well, what do you think?" And I said, "Yeah, it's the first one. It's the first house we looked at. That's the how it's like it was built for to make this movie. It couldn't be any more perfect." - We're like, seeing these other houses only made me feel more resolute about my choice. - Yeah, but when I got on set, I had, considering how upsetting and dark this film is, it's a little odd to be saying this, but I think I had the most fun I've ever had in my life. - Really? - Ever. - Of your life? - Yeah. - That's big. - So I had a vocal coach on George and Tammy and he very graciously agreed to come 'cause there's a scene in the movie where they're singing a song at a church and he tapped me on the shoulder at one point. He's like, "You're like a little boy. You're just like a little boy running around." He's like, "I've never seen you this happy." And it really touched me when he said that 'cause I'm not even sure I was aware of it, but-- - That seems like a thing you'd wanna do again then. - You know, you would think, but I need to find another piece of material that inspires me that much. I don't think I'd be a great, like there's some people that are like directors for hire, you know, and they'll just show up and-- - I feel like everyone in Hollywood has directed CSI, like it was just like everyone. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I can't, I don't know if I'd be able to do that. I really have to be, I have to find another script that moves me as much as this one did. - What moves you about the music of REM? Because you spend a lot of time in those songs. You and your good friend, Jason, am I saying Jason's name right, Nardisie? - Oh, Nardisie. - Nardisie. - Nardisie. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Your band is deep into REM. You guys are touring, you're performing these songs. How come? - Yeah, well, I mean, look, like earlier in our conversation, when we were talking about, you know, the dark ages of my life, I took a lot of solace in the music of REM. And it feels like this band made these songs just for you, when you listen to them, to help you like navigate the pain and absurdity of existence. And there's so many people that feel that way. And yet, that's the thing about really incredible music I feel is that it's very public and very private at the same time. - Can I ask you about singing, the act of singing, and like what you get out of it? - Oh, gosh, it's very hard to put into words. I mean, I think if it's something you could put into words, maybe you would, you know, maybe-- - And you wouldn't need to sing, yeah. - Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it's just a real sense of communion with people. Like when we do these shows, a lot of the people in the audience, they're not there necessarily because of like me or Jason or any of that, they're there because they love these songs. And they just seem to appreciate even, you know, you know, it's just a version of it. It's not the real thing, but they just to get that opportunity. - Do you feel like getting backed in the game? Actually, I don't care if you feel like it. We're gonna do it. Is that okay? - Yes. - 'Cause we have more. - Yes. - It wasn't very polite of me. I don't care what you think. I do, actually. Okay. - Well, these are different color. - Yeah, these are different color. This is round two. - Okay. - It's sort of like insights, insights into your life. - Insights. - One, two, or three. - Number two. - Number two. - Oh, man, I love this one. - I've never asked anyone this one, so we'll see how it goes. How would you describe the way you walk? - That is, we have found the right question. This is- - You have an answer for this question? - This is like, it really is a stone cold issue in my life, because everyone always asks me why I'm limping. - Do you limp? Clearly. - I don't. - Oh, what? - I don't think I'm limping. I think it's just the way I walk, but something about the way I walk leads people to believe that I'm injured somehow. - Oh, that is deep. - Particularly if I'm tired, the more tired I get, the more exacerbated this gate becomes, and I've been trying to figure out why. - What does it not to put you on the couch here, but what does it make you feel when people think you're limping and you're not limping? I mean, I feel like that would have an imprint on one psyche, to think you're navigating the world one way. - I must confess sometimes I find it irritating. I'm like, it's just because it's persistent, and it's like, and it's kind of a mystery to me. Like I was in Budapest, Hungary over the summer, and there was this coffee house that I would go to from time to time, and one time the guy behind the counter said, "Are you okay? Did you hurt your foot?" I'm like, "I'm fine. I didn't hurt. What are you talking about?" Even if I did hurt my foot, what would you do about it? And then I felt terrible. I was like, this poor guy, he was a really nice guy, and he was just, you know, it's just people worry about you, and then, but you're like, your worry is unnecessary. It's unwarranted, I'm fine. But maybe there, I don't know, maybe there is something wrong. But I have a tendency to sigh a lot, and it makes people think I'm exasperated, or depressed, or despondent, or something. And they'll be like, "Are you okay? What's going on?" And I'm like, I'm literally breathing. It's all I'm doing. I'm just like, I just like the field air come in, and the air come out. It's just, I'm totally fine, so I... - Which is very healthy. - I think so, but it triggers something else for other people, and they think there's something wrong. So I empathize with that notion of being perceived differently. - Okay. - Three more, one, two, or three. - Okay. - Three. - One, two, three. - In moments of conflict, do you step in or step back? - Oh boy. - You have a stepper in her, or a stepper out her. You have a skip and a flip. - Well, I don't want to skip it. You know, ideally I step out. I used to be very argumentative, but, and it's not that that's, you know, entirely going away, but I want, I kind of want it to. I did a play once that had the phrase cultivate detachment and I think that's based on a Buddhist idea of, or a philosophical idea of, you know, releasing yourself from the bondage of your attachment, you know, not just other things or people or whatever, but to your own ideas or beliefs. I'm all for it, yes. So ideally, as I progress through my life, I'll get closer, closer and closer to that. Yeah. - What if you witness conflict between other people? That's not yours. Do you feel like compulsion or a drive to step into remedy or step back to let it play out? - Well, I guess it depends on what the origin of the conflict is or what it's about, you know? I mean, a lot of times when I see people out in public who are enraged about something or angry, and you get this opportunity a lot now with people on their phones to really witness like what somebody looks and acts and sounds like when they're super upset at somebody about something, it really winds up looking kind of ridiculous and embarrassing, and you're like, oh my, like, oh, is that what I look like when I'm all shouty? You know, it's like, oh, that's really-- - You, shouty's not a good look on anyone. - Yeah, yeah. That's kind of pathetic, and I'm sure, I'm pretty sure like whatever they're so upset about right now is actually not that big a deal, you know? - Yeah. - Three more in this round, one, two, or three? - One. - What does age teach you about love? - Oh my God. Oh, dear. - Oh no, is that a good, oh my God, or a bad one? - No, it just moved me. They're very linked, obviously, age. You, I think, you know, when you're young, love can be very self-serving. You're like, you want love from other people, you wanna have love, it's something you want for yourself because it feels, you know, wonderful to feel like you're loved, or to have, you know, a relationship. And then as you get older, you realize that it's probably ultimately more important to love others regardless of what you get in return. - Yeah. - It becomes, hopefully, less transactional and more, just a state of being, you know, which can be hard to accept. Actually, kind of going back to that place that I was at where I was younger, where I was, you know, okay, being alone. And, but with the new, with more, I don't know, more wisdom, some sort of wisdom that I've accrued along the way, hopefully. Yeah. - I had a conversation with my sister that you just reminded me of that is, it's a thing that I've learned as you get old about love, that it's just you. It's all you got, actually, is you. - Yeah. - And if you can't be okay with you, then it's harder to love people without expectation or attachment or consequence. - Right. - And that's hard. I don't think that comes naturally to any of us is that recognition and being able to then take people where they're at, love without expecting some reciprocity. - Right. - That's a tough lesson. - One, it's liberating in a way, if you can really do it in an honest, authentic way, it's actually very freeing, but it, unfortunately, it seems to be something you can't get to without experiencing a fair amount of pain. - Yeah. - Yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) So now it's our last round. - Okey-dokey. - This is the beliefs round, which we've already sort of touched on, but here we go. One, two, or three? - Three. - Three. (laughs) Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you found out wasn't true? - I don't think so. I've always thought that life was very, you know, chaotic and kind of unreliable. You know, I guess the most bedrock truth I could claim to have is that, you know, change is the only reality, but it does actually seem to be true. (laughs) - Are you comfortable in that? I mean, has it always been? - Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not. But I can't imagine it any other way. You know, when you act, you create these little societies or civilizations to create some piece of art, and then you finish and they disappear, and it's kind of like the rhythm of my life. And there's certain relationships that carry on through those, or people that you work with multiple occasions, but for the most part, you get very accustomed to things not being, you know, stable or reliable or things changing. - How does having a family play into that? Is that a constant for you? - That is, yeah, particularly my daughters. I mean, that's the one thing, you know, that won't change is I love them very much, and I always will, and they're my, you know, favorite people. And I'm fascinated by them, and if they're anything like me, they'll probably be a period of time where I don't interact with them very much, you know. - Are you preparing yourself for that? - Yeah, well, my 16 year old is already a very cosmopolitan, young woman, but she still, she makes time for me now and then, yeah. But she's so, she's so healthy. I mean, it's all so healthy, it's just, it's exactly what should be happening. - But that's a great thing because you had a different experience with your parents, and I imagine it informed your choices about how you wanted to raise kids and how you wanted to be a parent. - Yeah, I get uncomfortable taking too much credit for it. I definitely think there was some step forward, but you know, I also make tons of mistakes, just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I don't believe it to me, they're perfect. - You heard it here, I didn't appear. - Okay, this is the last one. One, two or three? - Two. - Two. When do you think about your smallness in the universe? Oh boy, a lot. - Do you? - I really do, I mean, I'm just a big nature lover, you know, I love nature, I love the earth, I love, you know, the galaxy, the universe, you know, a lot of mornings after I drop my younger daughter, if I take her to school, there's a duck pond in the park by her school and I'll just go sit there and I'm staring at the birds and the trees and... And that's all, you know, so much bigger. I made a movie that came out called The End about this family that lives in a bunker underground and because for research going into it, I read this book called The Sixth Extinction. There's a line in the book where the author says, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but she says something to the effect, keep in mind that someday everything that humanity has ever been or done or created will be like a stripe in the ground. - Is that a liberating feeling for you? - Yeah, I think so, I think ultimately it's liberating. I mean, you know, I'm not hoping that someone like erects a statue of me somewhere or something. - I'm not getting that vibe from you, yeah, no. - I would say that the primary thing that an actor is supposed to do is disappear. So I'm basically like disappearing all the time, which is attempting to. So yeah, I don't need to feel overly significant. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine, okay? So in the memory time machine, you choose one moment from your past that you would like to go back to, not to change anything, just to linger in a little while longer. What moment do you choose? - Boy. (soft piano music) - That's so hard. Does everybody struggle with it? - It's interesting people's reactions. Some people go right away. Other people think. - Oh, dear. (chuckles) (clicks tongue) - Not that one. (both laughing) - Well, this is fairly recent, I guess, but over the summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working and the rivers there, you can get a boat. It's really nice, they give you cheese and fruit and all these things, and you sit back there and yeah, I was writing on this boat. And it was about a half hour, and you go under all the bridges, there's a lot of bridges on the river there, and there's a beautiful island there called Margaret Island. That you go past, and I just felt so peaceful and serene and happy on this boat. And you go by the parliament. They have an extraordinary parliament building right on the river, and the sun was going down, and the parliament lights up at night. And yeah, it's kind of the happiest I remember feeling recently, but I wish I was back on that boat. (gentle music) - Michael Shannon's new movie, Eric LaRue, will be out this spring. You can see him on tour, covering R.E.M.'s fables of the reconstruction album, "This Winter." Michael, thank you so much for talking with me. I really appreciate it. - I play. (upbeat music) - If you like this conversation, go back and check out my episode with Mark Duplass. He is another very sensitive soul, and it's worth listening to the episode just to hear him describe the experience of being on his elliptical trainer in his home gym and crying along to Taylor Swift songs. I promise, it's uplifting. If you want more from Michael Shannon, on Wildcard Plus this week, he tells me about his relationship with rules as a kid. - I mean, classifying myself as a rebel, really, but I also was not fastidious about following the rules. - We'll also hear a little more from our David Lynch interview about his connection to the cosmic world when he was a kid. - You can hear that answer by signing up for Wildcard Plus, which is a fantastic way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen sponsor-free. Find out more at plus.npr.org/wildcard. This episode was produced by Romel Wood and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romtine Arablui. You can reach out to us at wildcard@npr.org. We're going to shuffle the deck, and we'll be back with more next week. Talk to you then. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]