Before we jump into this episode, I just want to give you a quick heads up that the copywriter accelerator will be opening up for the one and only time this year at the end of August. I won't share any details at the moment, but you can find out more when you visit thecopyrightaclub.com/waitlist and put your name on that waitlist and we'll send you some more information if you're interested in that program. (upbeat music) Today's guest has been on the show before, but since his first appearance, he's created a completely different business that supports him as he travels the world. His old business was writing copy, mostly emails for clients. The new business sells digital products with a daily email and regular posts on LinkedIn. He still talks about emails, even still writes a few emails for clients, but the shift in focus is significant and has helped free up his time for other activities. Hi, I'm Rob Marsh, one of the founders of the Copyrights Club, and on today's episode of the Copyrights Club podcast, I talked with copywriter and digital product business owner, Francis Nyan. As I mentioned, Francis has been on the show before, but his businesses changed so dramatically in the past few years that I thought it'd be nice to talk about that change and how his business is shifted. And knowing that many of you want to sell digital products of your own, this episode will give you a taste of what that requires. So be sure to stick around for this one. Before we jump in with Francis, you've heard me talk about the copywriter underground a lot on this podcast, along with the monthly coaching, the weekly copy critiques, the community, the courses that you get as a member. Each month we bring in a special guest to go in depth on a business or a copywriting topic. And in August, Francis Nyan, who's the guest for this episode, will be jumping into the underground to share the ins and outs of his business. He's gonna break down his business model and show you how to sell digital products with a daily email. If after you listen to this episode, you think, I'd like a business like Francis has, you definitely are gonna want to join us for this workshop. Go to thecoprotorclub.com/tcu for more details and you'll find where you can join for this exclusive workshop. And with that, let's go to our interview with Francis Nyan. (upbeat music) Okay, welcome back, Francis. It's been a little while, a couple of years since we talked on the podcast, I think episode 213. And normally, we would start out saying, "Hey, tell us your story." But you kind of did that already on that episode. So instead, how about catch us up on what's happened over the last couple of years since the last talk? - For sure, for sure. And wow, yeah, that was like two or three years ago, I think during COVID. And sometimes I cringe at myself when listening to that old podcast episode, I was really, really hyped up on cold showers and stuff like that. - Yeah, you talked about cold showers and lemon water and getting up at 5 a.m. There was all kinds of stuff in there. - Yeah, I think that was just me and my COVID grind had nothing better to do other than wake up at 5 a.m. But yeah, a lot has changed since then. I am still doing a lot of work in the email world, still working with some e-commerce businesses and some coaches here and there. But over the time, I have taken on like some really cool projects, one, especially teaching, you know, aspiring and kind of new and sometimes even kind of struggling email copywriters and list managers to, yeah, get clients, make more money, but also do so by enjoying life. And so, yeah, I've had like an incredible time, of course, working with clients, but then also working with some incredible people, teaching them everything that I know and it's super fulfilling. And yeah, that's what I've been some of the big things I've been up to since the last time we spoke. - Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about that because last time we talked, you were doing, I think full-time email for clients, but you've launched the second kind of business that you've really gone hard on maybe the last two, two and a half years or so. So tell us about that, what it involves, you know, basically how you're making money, what you're creating, all of that stuff. - Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, as you said, I kind of started this new project about two and a half years ago and it really came out of the whole just desire that I wanted something a little bit new because I was making really good money and good traction with my email business, but I realized I did not really know how to scale it, you know, what that really meant. I tried building an agency and I realized that I actually really did not like doing that and I was thinking, you know, what else can I do? And during this time, I actually had a side project with a newsletter that was a little bit different and away from the marketing world and it was called the Nomad newsletter originally and basically people were replying back to me from the Nomad newsletter, asking me how I make money online and travel the world because during the time I was in Hungary, I had already kind of solidified myself in some circles as like this traveling copywriter. And the Nomad newsletter was originally just supposed to be just for digital nomads. I was talking about like travel hacks and stuff like that. But then, yeah, people started asking like, hey, how are you doing this? And then I realized, you know, the whole, as they say in marketing, just like listen to your audience, right? So I talked to a few people on how to launch up a community and I pretty much just created it. Like I started the Facebook group with the name of my program. My position, I positioned it for freelance email copywriters who wanted to make $2,000 to $5,000 per month per client. And I was just gonna teach them how to get clients and also save time. And yeah, so they can do what I did. And, you know, that's how I started. Like it was just a Facebook group. I didn't even have a course platform. Everything was on a Google Drive. And now it is around, I think I have over 100 people in my community. And, you know, they typically pay with like a, it's kind of based like a membership as well. And so they can pay monthly or, you know, paying full for the year. And I host one or two trainings per week with a resident copy coach who I just hired who can, he was a far better like teacher of copy than I ever could be. But yeah, that people come in, and I'll watch our core curriculum. I have a couple dozen other videos that cover different parts of email copy, email list management and like building a brand. And yeah, like leave myself open for Q and A and helping them with any sticking points. So it was all just so I could basically just teach people everything that I know, get paid for my advice and kind of diversify my income originally. And not just be purely a freelance copywriter. Yeah, and I mean, there are a lot of copywriters out there who've done this kind of thing where they've built a product, a side hustle, and, you know, they've maybe taught some of their expertise, but it doesn't take off quite the way that, at least what I think, you know, as I've watched you do this over the last couple of years, what you have done. And I think part of that has to do, well, with your communication strategy, obviously, and we can talk about daily emailing in a second, but you've also done a lot on Twitter and really growing your presence there. So talk to us about how Twitter plays, not just a part in you telling your story, but in acquiring prospects that then get onto your email list and then eventually buy it. Yeah, really good question. And so I kind of came up on Twitter basically 'cause I wanted to grow my email list, you know? It was, and this is just for the newsletter and everybody during this time, this was like 2021, 2022. People were saying, if you want to grow your email list, like go on Twitter. And I was like, okay, well, I guess I'll just grow. I'll just go on Twitter and like start this account and, you know, talk about what I do. And of course it was really slow, but, you know, during this time, the kind of Twitter business and marketing community was really thriving with a lot of really awesome value being shared like daily. And a really awesome group of like entrepreneurs. And basically I used Twitter as a way to talk about the things that I was really passionate about. So not just necessarily my offer, but like just things about me. So I did talk about, you know, my community. I talked about copywriting, but then I also talked a whole lot about myself and kind of, I allowed myself to be a little bit goofy and show off my personality. So a lot of my long-form Twitter threads, which was how I grew, was basically kind of centered around three main things. It was copywriting, how to get clients as an email list manager, and then also lifestyle things. So, you know, some of my favorite parts of living in Mexico or some of my favorite digital nomad destinations or, you know, how travel impacted me. And I think that's what really helped me grow my community and my email list and kind of, I guess, sell my products because I think it, yeah, it was just all part of my brand. I wasn't just like another copywriter. It was more like, whoa, he's a copywriter who actually travels the world and, you know, he lives this life that a lot of people say that they should and he seems really real. And I think the great thing about Twitter was it allowed me to be a bit of myself. I'm not like the most business-y guy, you know? And so I was able to kind of throw out memes out there or be really goofy and it made it really fun. And so, yeah, with a couple long-form threads and kind of plugging my newsletter at the end of those threads and at the end of really good content that went semi-viral or viral, I'll leave a little grow my email list and use that to grow my audience and my community. - And there are a lot of people out there that talk about using Twitter to, you know, basically grow your authority, that kind of a thing. Were you following the kinds, they talk about things like, okay, you've got to start with a hook and then you've got to follow this exact structure, you know, on the five-part Twitter thread and you've got to cut, you know, here are all the different ways that people are doing it, the experts who are growing. And so you want to mimic the same stuff that they're doing. Were you doing any of that or was it all just, I'm going to be authentic, show up and just share. - Well, yeah, for sure, for sure. In the beginning, it was like, I had no clue what I was doing, Rob. So it was like, and at the beginning, I'm just like tweeting into the void, you know? It's hard to be motivated when you're tweeting for four followers, you know? And so, like, I was in the beginning, just kind of following the simple frameworks that like, I was being shared, you know, and kind of given to me for free. It's like, hey, try these 13 different hooks and see what works. And I did that, like, there was a lot of trial and error. Eventually, I started honing in on like, the two or three different hooks that worked for me. And I've built my email list and my community just kind of based on those. And it was always just like case studies. And then like freelancer insights or like client-based insights. So I was just talk about how I would perhaps achieve a big win for a client. And I would say, well, here are seven lessons I learned from helping my client with a $84,000 launch or something like that. And then, or perhaps someone in the community ended up getting a really awesome freelancer deal. Like, they closed a $5,000 e-commerce client even though they are pretty new. You know, they're three or four months into email copywriting and they got a client. And then I would say that. I would say, you know, so-and-so had just joined my program three months ago. He's totally new, doesn't know copywriting. And now he just landed a $5,000 client that has 100,000 followers on Instagram. Here's exactly what he did. And so it was no longer just like teaching people how to do things. It was more like, here's how I did things, you know? And that also allowed me to share like valuable content but then also kind of have that spin of like, here's how I did it. So then it was a little bit of my personality in there as well. - How does the process of your content creation work? Do you sit down one day a week and think, okay, this is all the stuff I'm gonna share this week or do you just share as it happens? - 90% of the time, it just happens that day. Like I don't really have like a content plan, especially nowadays, like I think on Twitter, from what I've seen, some of my best stuff and the stuff that gets like the most eyes on it and quote unquote attracts people to me is when it just kind of pops in my head and maybe I just kind of free flow with it. But when it does come to like the longer form content, especially when I was writing longer form content like once every, like once a week, I would sit down and I would think about like, you know, what is a really good hook? What's something interesting that I can share with my audience? What's gonna resonate? And so, but each day like now my process is like, wake up, one of the first things I do is spend like the first two hours of my day with content creation. So that's creating stuff on Twitter, seeing if I can repurpose it on LinkedIn and then getting some ideas for my newsletter. And now I'm trying to kind of branch out and go more into Instagram and like video content. But yeah, like that's only, it's June right now and I've only been doing that for the last week or so. But that's something that I'm gonna try to focus on for the next year, hopefully. - And it seems to me that Twitter was a really powerful tool for a lot of people growing, especially through, you know, the pandemic, maybe a year or two after, as you look at Twitter today, you know, lots changed. I mean, it's not even called Twitter anymore. We should be talking about X. If you looked at X today, can you, could you do the same, could you replicate the same success that you had if you had it starting in 2024, as you did starting, you know, three years ago? - That's a really good question. And I think, I think you can, 'cause I maybe not into the same speed 'cause, you know, I'm not a developer. I don't know how like algorithms work or, you know, what doesn't work or what really, you know, I just know that back then, if I had a long-form piece of content that it would reach a lot more people. Nowadays, maybe not as much, but I think still today, even when I put out a long-form piece of content, I'm still gonna get inquiries. I'm still gonna get people interested and my email list is gonna grow. And as long as I plug my newsletter, I'll still get subscribers, you know, am I going to, am I going to put out like a long-form thread and get 400, 500,000 impressions like I was a year and a half ago? Organically, like probably not, but I still think that there's a lot of people out there who are doing really well on the platform. And if you kind of still maintain the, you know, the practice of sharing authority content and also sharing kind of personality content, you're gonna grow, you know? I've had students in my community over the last, you know, six months who kind of started on Twitter, you know, they are extremely consistent with it. They're really great at networking. And for them, they love how it is. So yeah, I still think that it's still a very powerful platform. But I think consistent team making sure your content is like on point is way more important now. - Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you used Twitter then to drive people to your email list. Let's talk a little bit about your emails, daily emails and how you look at that part of your business. - Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. So I'm a big email list guy, I think. I started my email list actually when I was originally in the think tank. I think this was like 2019. And I did it, I think just out of encouragement from you and Gira and like a few other people and they were like, "Yeah, I just started an email list." And I had no clue what I was doing. But I did know that after a few months, even if I only had like 200, 300 followers, I was still able to get like clients from it. So I've always been in love with like having a newsletter and sending out regular emails. And now what I do with that is like, I don't necessarily see it as like me just having email list. I kind of see myself as a little bit of a publisher, or I do have this idea that I have an audience that's interested in a particular topic. And I'm going to talk about that topic and send products to that topic around that topic. And so my whole strategy with that is like a very similar to social media is like sharing a lot of authority content. So case studies, student wins, insights from clients and things like that. But then also a lot more story-based content. And it's sometimes a little bit informal. Like it's, I don't judge, I judge myself less when I am writing to my newsletter. But the stories are a lot more personal. And so I use that, I use my email list as a way to kind of grow that no like and trust factor, but then also talk more about the products specifically. So I use social media to kind of get attention and get traffic to my opt-in page, but then I really use my email list as a way for people to like me, and then eventually trust me enough to buy from. And yeah, that's kind of my main focus when we're using my email list. - And you email daily, talk to us a little bit about the thought process there. And I approach it, we email our list pretty close to daily, if not daily, there are a few people out there that do daily emails. But most people tend to be once a week or maybe twice a week. So why daily and how does that impact the business? - Yeah, so I do daily one as kind of like a habit. Like I feel as if if I were only to do like once a week or twice a week, then there's a good chance I wouldn't do it at all. 'Cause I tried doing that where it was like, especially when I was writing under the brand stories and copy, which was like my freelancing brand. I would try to do like an email, like an email a week, but then sometimes, you know, kind of procrastinating or being lazy, I would say, well, it's just one day or it's just one week, you know, they only need to hear from me. And so doing it daily, or at least doing it regularly, I tell people I have a near daily email newsletter, right? So that was mistake-consistent. But then it's also just a way for people to kind of get to know me more. The more emails I put out there, the more stories I can tell, the more I can talk about my offer. And that's what I really like to do, like ultimately, it's just like tell stories. And in a lot of the emails that I do send, sometimes I don't even have a CTA. Perhaps I just have a story to share that has a lesson attached to it. And then I kind of ended abruptly of like, hey, here's the here's the story, here's the lesson, hope you have a good day. And so I don't use it for selling all the time, but it's a great way for me to kind of stay in front of my audience, but then also kind of keep them nurtured. I've had people who have been on my list for years, and when they do buy something or they do reply back, they'll say, oh, I've been reading every single one of your emails for the last like three years. I absolutely love them. And, you know, I'm ready to kind of work with you. They say they'll say something like that. But for me, it's just, yeah, making sure that I am in front of them. And, you know, I know it's, it can be annoying to some people. Of course, if they unsubscribe, like, that's fine. I write pretty formally or informally enough, or I like to think that the emails I send are almost like they're from a friend. And if they want to unsubscribe from a friend, well, that's cool too. You know, they likely weren't going to buy or, you know, work for me and that, you know, that's fine as well. So for those who stay, even though I send out a lot of emails, well, I hope they enjoy it and a lot of them do. So that's kind of my philosophy around the whole daily emails. - How strategic are you about promoting various programs in your emails? Do you wake up every day thinking, okay, what am I going to write about today? Or do you have that plan laid out where it's like, okay, next week I'm going to be promoting this program. And I've got these three stories already lined up that I'm going to share. Again, talk to the strategy there. - Yeah, yeah, so I'm pretty much about like a month ahead when it comes to planning. Like for example, with my freelancer community for email copywriters, like I don't promote it that often. I might have a PS there, but I'll promote it heavily maybe once every six to eight weeks for about a week. And other than that, what I like to do is have at least a product in mind that I can promote again. Sorry, another product I can promote that month. So perhaps it's going to be an affiliate product or it's going to be one of my own digital products. Or in this case, like recently, a new community. But I like to have that kind of in mind. And I like to kind of only promote twice a month for about five, six, seven days max. And then two of those weeks out of the month are going to be purely dedicated to like telling stories or just giving us some type of a lesson each day. And, but you know, I know people sometimes want to buy. So I do have like a PS, what I call like a profitable PS of just like PS, here's how you can learn from me more or here's how I can help you today. And it's just like a bullet list of products that I have or ways that you can like work with me, whether it's one-on-one or you want to hear about the community, even though I'm not promoting it right now, kind of have that as an option as well. So yeah, I do think about what I'm going to promote and how I'm going to promote it about a month in advance. And yeah, I think it's good to have a plan just because, you know, I am in some circles where, you know, maybe I'll be an affiliate for somebody or, you know, I find a product that I want to be an affiliate for and I want to kind of have some dedicated days where I can promote that. But other than that, it's like, you know, two weeks of promotion, two weeks of stories. And yeah, that's the whole content calendar. - And are you writing the emails? You're not writing emails out a month ahead, right? Do you do those on a daily basis or, you know, a couple of days ahead, where are you there? - Yeah, I do it on a daily basis. So it's one of the first things I do each day next to social media content creation. So I'll typically work on like Twitter or LinkedIn first because those are a little bit quicker. I like to start the day with some quick wins and quick tasks done. I know some people like to get the hardest thing done. But for me, I like to kind of war myself up to that. And so I start off with my social media and then I will think of a story or a lesson to send to my email list or I will promote a product, you know, if it is that type of week. And yeah, so it's one of a daily thing. I tried doing it from batch writing or I tried doing writing emails a couple of days in advance. But then I think what I notice about myself is, you know, if the email is just in drafts on a Google doc and I'll review it again, maybe on the day that it's supposed to be sent. I'll look at it and I'll just be like, ugh, this isn't good. You know, I started kind of judging myself on every line. Maybe I'm not feeling good that day and I'm like, why do I seem so happy? Why do I seem so upset? Or why do I seem like, why is this story so short? It's, yeah, I like to just kind of send it on the day that it felt good. So yeah, I write my emails daily on the day. - I think one of the things that scares people about committing to something like a daily email is that after the first couple of days, they feel like they're running out of stories or they're running out of things to share. So how do you keep that idea file full so that you always have something to turn to? - Yeah, yeah. So there are like one, there are like kind of content buckets I, so I guess there are layers, all right? So I think first there are like these content buckets. So there are three or four things, three or four topics that I always talk about. So I always try to make sure that the email of that day is within those topics. So perhaps it's gonna be lifestyle, it's gonna be getting clients, maybe email insight or some type of like online business. So I'll keep it within those content buckets. But then I, if I am really, really struggling, I always have a couple of stories that I will reiterate to a couple of stories, a couple of lessons that I always kind of share with the audience again. And I think that's fine. I think some people are like, "Oh, Francis, don't you ever get tired "of talking about your first six months as a freelancer? "And do you think your audience will ever get bored "of that?" It's like, no, I don't think so because the audience grows, perhaps some people don't know about it, but then it's kind of like, if you repeat a story enough times, I feel as if somehow the audience will kind of feel more connected with you because it's, now they can see it's really like a very defined part of your fabric, right? So if I'm really struggling, I do go back to some of the stories or lessons that are quite popular or with my list. But something I also like to do each day, and this is like every day, is like at the end of each day, I just, I like to write out like a two or three-sentence story out of the, that happened that day. And I actually got this from the, the book called Storyworthy. - Yeah, I was gonna ask if that's where it came from. - That's where it came from. - And he calls it homework for life. We need to make sure he gets credit for that, but I've actually been rereading his books this week. He just came out with a new book about seven days ago as we record. So I re-listen to Storyworthy and just listening to Storyselling this week, in fact. So I'm glad you mentioned that. - Yeah, for sure, for sure. Like, yeah, that's one of my inspirations for story. So perhaps I will think about my day, I'll think about, what is something that happened today? How did it impact me? It's gonna be two, three, four sentences. And of course, like I'm not gonna write about every single day, you know? But if I do need a story in mind, and perhaps a lesson that's attached to it, I'll look at my log and I'll think, oh, okay, well, that was a very interesting day. This happened with a client. She made perhaps I can, you know, something came out of that, perhaps I can share with that, you know, to my list. And, you know, that'll be good. And so that's something that I do. But then another thing is also not judge myself if I don't know what to write about that day. So if it's, if what I write about is going to be really short, and it's just going to be a quick lesson, even if it's basic, that's fine. You know, and I think that even when I do that, like, you know, even if somebody who is listening to this podcast does that, and they're like, oh, like, perhaps this wasn't my best email, I think that's still okay, because your audience may even recognize that, look, this is like a short email. It's just a quick lesson. It's not like this big, incredible, you know, piece of content. But I think that that makes it a little bit more real, you know? And I think it adds a little bit of humanity to the email list and kind of doubles down on the fact that I want my email list to be, to feel like they're getting it from a friend, you know? And so similar to when you get messages from a friend, they're not going to be like this most amazing piece of, you know, the most incredible text or the most incredible invite, you know? So I think it's okay. If you write something, it's maybe not the best thing, that people who really like reading your content and hearing from you, they're going to read it, say thank you and move on with their day. And if people don't like it and they unsubscribe, well, you know, it's okay. If they can't take you at your worst, maybe they don't deserve you at your best, you know? Whatever that, that kind of really basic line is. But yeah, that's kind of my, my thought process behind it is going through those content buckets, thinking about, you know, maybe the typical stories that people like seeing what's going on with my life lately and using that as a piece of inspiration, but then also not judging myself if I don't have something amazing. - And that's smart. - Okay, so we've talked through promotion or tension, you know, with social media, we've talked a little bit about your emailing daily in order to warm people up. It's great to have that, but if you don't have offers, it doesn't matter. So talk to us about how you started to create offers, like where your thinking was and how you validated that with your audience in order to start growing the set of your business. - Yeah, for sure, for sure. So when it comes to like creating offers, you know, the first question is like, what offer is there to create in the first place? Like what should I have? We know what should I create? And so one of the things I really do is just ask my audience at all, like if it's a good idea. You know, sometimes intuitively or somebody actually tells me, you know, they'll say, create this. Or as I said, intuitively, maybe I'll have like an idea. You know, I think maybe this sounds like a good idea. Maybe it's good, maybe it's not. Either way, I'm going to ask my audience. And so I will send out a quick email to my list or to my social media followers. And I don't even have that big of a social media account. Like my Twitter is like 15,000, but it's quite small compared to others. And like it's been at that level for like quite some time now. And so I just ask my list, you know, ask the audience. Like, hey, I'm thinking about creating a workshop or a community or a training or a course based around, you know, this idea. You know, here's why. Here's what you're going to get out of it and what you're going to learn. Would you be interested? If I created this, you know, just reply back with the words, you know, maybe a secret code word or something for them to reply back. And if people reply back and it gets a really amazing response, then I'll create it and I'll tell them that I'm creating it. If it doesn't, you know, which happens a lot, a good amount where I'll say, hey, would you be interested in, you know, me teaching you how to build a social media brand or something? I sent that out like a year ago and it was a very minimal response. And so it's like, okay, well, that's a bad idea for an offer. But then it's like, okay, well, what am I going to teach? You know, here's the big promise. And I kind of use that acronym SMART, the S-M-A-R-T, my framework there. And then after that, it's kind of like the steps of like, how do I get somebody from point A to point B? And, you know, how many steps do I want to teach it? Then I just start filling out those steps. And, you know, that's going to be kind of the curriculum. And I think about, am I going to do this as a workshop or email course or am I going to record this training live or something like that? But yeah, that's kind of how I start with like ideation. It's just, I just ask my email list like, hey, what this interests you? And if yes, then I will create it, if not, then it's okay. Well, then it's not going to be made. And at least I sent an email out that day. It's all good. - And you've got a couple of different kinds of offers. So you've done some eBooks. You've done an almost monthly newsletter. I think it's close to monthly, if not monthly. You've got, I think, some video training. So, you know, your typical course stuff, what else? What am I missing? Maybe even just like, tell me about those different offers. - Well, one was the nomadic and happy, which was essentially kind of like my e-book that kind of explains how to build a nomadic freelancer business. And I started that about two years ago. And that was straight up coming from the Nomad newsletter originally. I think that's when maybe the program for, you know, my current program helping freelancers originated from was, I asked my audience, like, "Hey, if I wrote a book on how to get clients as a freelancer, would that be interesting to you?" And I got like a resounding response to that. You know, my list wasn't very big. There was only like 400 people at that time. And I think I got like 200 replies. And I was like, "Well, that's pretty cool. I think that's, I think that's, that sounds good to me." And so I created that book and then I, well, people were then interested in like, "Hey, I know how to build a freelancer business, but like what skill, you know, what skill can I offer?" And so then I asked my list again, like, "Would you be interested if I created a course teaching you how to write an email, a sales email?" And so that's when my next product, the 10-day traveling copywriter was created. It was basically teaching people in 10 days how to write a sales email. And that was kind of like a very good bundle offer. And I think I sold it as like an upsell for some time, but it was, it was essentially kind of leading breadcrumbs to what would eventually become the freelancing community. Because some people would buy nomadic and happy, they'd be interested in building a freelance business, then they would buy the 10-day traveling copywriter, where they would learn the skill, and then they were like, "Okay, well now I need guidance. I know how to get, it seems like I know how to get clients. I have a skill to offer people, but now I need help building it." And then that's when I started the nomadic copywriter. And yeah, it was a very logical step towards that. And so, yeah, and then I built that community and had some other offers created and some products that were created, some did really well, some flopped. You mentioned my like near monthly paid newsletter. It originally was going good, and then three months in, it was just like churn was like not that good. So like not everything I create is like that awesome. It was like a lot of people joined, and then by month two, month three, a lot of people left, and there wasn't a lot of people coming in. So, but yeah, that's part of it, right? But yeah, like asking your audience, what they would be interested in, and if they're going to be kind of into what you know, and if that's going to be helpful to them, that's what I've learned, a really great strategy. - Yeah, what I like about your approach, Francis, is that you seem willing to test anything, try anything, do anything, and then if it works, you do more of it, if it doesn't work, you're on to the next idea. You don't seem to get very, very tied to a specific thing that you've got to make work. - Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, I think I also have to kind of take stock with like if I really enjoy it, if I really think that I'm going to bring my best to it, like all the time, you know, and there was like some products where I got like a big, you know, a great response to create it, but then I saw myself like, well, I don't really know if I really, I'm not really good at this, like I don't, you know, I think I told my audience that I was going to do it, but maybe I should tell them that I'm not going to anymore because I just don't think I'm the guy to teach in that, you know, and I'm okay with being honest with myself and with the people who read my emails and follow me on social media, you know, if I have to backtrack and be like, hey, I made a mistake, that's fine too, you know? But yeah, I kind of think about things also long-term, you know, if I'm going to be enjoying doing this six, nine, 12 months from now. So yeah, like even with that, they have the failed paid newsletter, I realized that like, ah, well, actually, I don't know if I want to talk about, or write about email list strategies and dedicate like 20 pages a month on a Google doc to doing that, maybe that's not my style. Yeah, I just said it then did so. I'm not hung up, like if something breaks down, like it breaks down and that's okay. And is there some way that you reuse that material? So, you know, you created two or three of those newsletters. Do you turn that into something else? Or, you know, they just kind of in the vault waiting for, waiting for, you know, sunlight or somebody to start paying attention to them? No, I actually, I always use those as bonuses now. So like, I have, you know, for example, like the email freedom monthly, that was the name of the newsletter. And I had about four issues created. And those, each issue was like 15, 20 pages long. And so, if somebody purchases my email writing course, well, you know, I'm just gonna throw those in as a bonus because that's four more pieces of content where I'm saying, you know, this is 15 pages on how to improve your deliverability or this is 20 pages on how to write an awesome welcome sequence, like it's just a little bit more added value. And members of my community really enjoy them as well. 'Cause it's just, you know, when they join, when anyone joins a community, I think, we're some type of a program that wanna consume something right away, you know? And so I told them, hey, if you join, you can actually read through these archived, these archived PDFs from email freedom monthly and learn how to build out a welcome sequence and through deliverability and, you know, all these things. So they're being reused. And yeah, I think repurposing indie piece of content, I think that's a very smart thing, any online creator or anyone building online. That should be a skill. - Okay, so let's switch gears just a little bit. Your first product, like you mentioned, Nomadic and Happy, a big part of your brand is you're this Nomadic copywriter. You, you know, when, back when you were in the think tank, I think you were in Hungary, you traveled to Mexico, you've been in Portugal, Thailand, you, like, travels a big part of what you do. So obviously people can make this work. You can travel and be a copywriter, but it's not always easy. It's certainly not as easy as some of the, some people who talk about it. So what are some of those challenges that you've run into and then let's balance that against the benefits? - For sure, for sure. So some of the challenges, I think there are personal challenges and then also like professional challenges. So personal challenges would be things like, well, I'm never like going to be best friends with anybody on the road. So I travel with my girlfriend, so she's my best friend. But actually like staying and making like long, long-term connections with people is quite, quite difficult. Like, and sometimes it's a little bit sad because maybe I'll become friends with a person and be only hang out for like a month or two. And then now I'm just going to miss them for the rest of my life, you know? And like, for example, I met a guy when I was living in Thailand earlier this year and he was the Swedish guy who I was doing jujitsu classes with in Phuket. And we were like homies, you know? But then after he left and then I left, I'm like, well, I guess that's the end, you know? I think that can be pretty sad. Also, a lot of the bureaucracy is quite tough. Like having to count your days in a certain country, especially if you don't have a visa or a residency card, that's difficult. But I think business-wise, I think one of the toughest things that I realize is that traveling, especially if you do it a little too often, you don't kind of slow down and stay in a place for like one or two months, like minimum. It's like, your energy definitely takes a hit. And I think you definitely need like a week or two, maybe even more to really settle down in a place and buckle down and like focus on your work, you know? And that's really hard to do. Especially if you're going from place to place like each month, I think it's exhausting. And I don't think that if you travel in that style, that you're going to be getting your best work done. I think it's a lot better if you can take your time stay in a place for several months. So you have time to kind of enjoy the place, but then you also allow yourself to have days and weeks where you can just focus on work. So I think those are some of the big challenges that I've seen. Maybe I'm just getting older 'cause I am. When I joined the Think Tank, I was like an energetic 27 year old and now I'm like 32. Like it's, I think focusing on my energy and making sure that I allow myself to have deep work kind of set the atmosphere and the environment. I think that's more important now. So yeah, those are some of the challenges that I've seen. - And benefits. Yeah, well, I mean, clearly there's a lot of things to love about travel. - Yeah, yeah, I think the benefits of it is, of course, like you're in a new place. Like every place I go is fun. Like I have a great time wherever I am. Like it's, I get to experience incredible cultures, eat amazing food, meet really just the friendliest, most welcoming and the most beautiful locals. And I really get to immerse myself, you know, especially if I'm doing like longterm travel where I can perhaps meet some locals and just take a, you know, get off the beaten path, you know, away from the tourist sections and really be part of the city. I think that's really cool. And also in some places you can actually do, you know, go to a lot of meetups and meet a lot of people who are also really into travel and building a business. And, you know, that's been really fun. Like I was in Barcelona and I went to a couple of entrepreneur meetups. When I was in Phuket, I went to, I was part of a, and I was a member of a co-working space and they had events like every Friday, right? You know, they would go snorkeling or they would just go to a beach or have dinner. And that was really cool. You know, I would shake hands with some guy from France who runs a media buying agency and he's like, "Oh, well, we actually may need a copywriter or I may need help building up my community." So let's stay in touch. So I think they're just some really cool benefits. And yeah, they make this lifestyle pretty fun. - Yeah, it does sound fun. Is this a life plan? Do you plan on doing this forever or do you see yourself settling down at some point? - Oh, I definitely see myself settling down at some point. I think it's very interesting for me because it's like, I think as the years have gone by, I've also like, when I go to a new city or country, I stay longer, you know? So the days when I was like 25 and I was finally making like two or three K per month for freelancing and I was like, "Oh, I'll just go to, I don't know, but I'll go to Berlin this week and then I'll go to Munich this next week. And then maybe I'll go to Barcelona the next week after that. I think those days are over. But now it's like, yeah, I do want to have like a deeper home base, you know? Hungary was that for quite a while. And now I'm actually in the process of trying, hopefully I will have a new home base within the next month. At the time of this recording, I hope I have a new home base and then I would still love to go travel, but I do want to have a place I call home because as you see, I don't know, people who can't, people who are just listening to this podcast can't see me, but like there's a suitcase right behind me. So that's like, you know, me and my girlfriend just live out for a few cases right now and Airbnb's. So yeah, I think in the future, I'm definitely going to be settling down. And then yeah, maybe when I'm like four day, I'll just take like, I don't know, one or two trips a year. That'll be it. - That'll be a big change. So you'll no longer be the nomadic copywriter. It'll be the, you know, I travel once or twice a year copywriter. New products to create. - Yeah, I'm going to have to change up my brand, you know? But like, let's see, let's see. I, you know, I think travel is such a big part of me and even now when I, even when I say that, there's been times where, you know, my girlfriend and I will say in a place for several months. And then even then it's like, let's get out of here. Let's go someplace else. Let's, you know, we're doing it this place. Let's go, you know, let's go for another adventure. So maybe, yeah, I don't think I'll ever stop traveling. I think it's just part of who I am. And I like exploring places and learning languages and stuff like that, but yeah, I don't think I'll be living out of a suitcase forever. - Another thing that I admire about you, Francis, is that you've sought out mentors at various times in your business to learn specific things. Talk a little bit about your approach to that, and why you choose to depend on other people to help you grow. - Yeah, so for me, it's like, yeah, I've learned this with the think tank 'cause the think tank was such a massive part of me transforming into not just being just a freelance, but like seeing myself as a business owner. And so me, like my whole approach to finding mentors is I do take some time before I actually commit. I think about where I wanna be in the next few months and how I wanna get there and how I want my business to look. And so then I either find somebody who has what I want or I'll perhaps stumble upon them and I'll think, okay, that sounds really good. I like what they're telling me. I like their promise, and that's something that's aligned with what I want, but I don't just jump ahead. So what I do like to do is my research, and I like to make sure that they can't do what they promise, they've done what they promised like a bunch of times. 'Cause I know there's a lot of people out there who promise this and that. And what I wanna do is just work with somebody who has done it a lot. And it doesn't need to be a big name, like 150,000 Instagram followers. And so I'm guru or anything like that. Somebody is very likable, like to me, if my personality seems like, if our personalities seem like they align and they have accomplished what they say they can do a bunch of times, then I'll seek them out. And I do that because I'm somebody who, I need to, I need that guidance. I need somebody who I can get feedback from. But then there's also a little bit of kind of like betting on myself. 'Cause you know, there is like an investment involved, there's money involved. And I know that if I'm investing in myself, well, I'm gonna do everything I can to get a return on that. So it's a little bit of pushing myself. But then also like, there are so many amazing mentors and coaches and people out there who can really help you and give you like fantastic guidance. And so if, you know, what I've learned is like, if they can give you one idea, like that can help you. Like one idea can like transform your business, you know? And so for example, like working with Rob and Karen, the thing tank, you know, you guys, that was such an incredible like transformative experience for me, 'cause they really shifted like my mindset. Like I remember I never really thought about like business mindset before I joined the thing tank. And just like joining a group of people who are like-minded and we wanted the same thing, that was so impactful to me. And like the ROI on that has just been like, I don't know, so many times over, right? But yeah, like just to learn from somebody who has a business or a lifestyle that I want, I see myself always getting there a lot faster and quicker and just like just getting their knowledge and kind of betting myself to apply it. Yeah, it's just, it makes things a lot easier and simpler 'cause I actually have clarity on what to do and somebody can tell me if I'm actually doing it right. - Yeah, I have a very similar approach. I love seeking out people that I admire that I know I can learn from. It's been a game changer in my own business. And yeah, so I really appreciate that. What's next for you, Francis? As you're looking out the next, aside from finding a home base for a while, especially in your business, what do the next three to six months hold? - That's a good question, that's a good question. So right now I am creating a new community essentially based around helping experts, not just freelancers, but I guess freelancers who, it's open to freelancers who instead of themselves experts, but helping those people kind of create a high ticket community similar to the one I have. And I really enjoy my community. I think it's one of the most fulfilling things I've ever created. And it's helped me with my business, not just like profit wise, but also impact wise and with authority. So I want to help other people create a community similar to what I have getting paid for their advice and doing it in a way that is totally leveraged. They don't have to work 12 hour days. I run my community one to three hours per day, three hours max. And I can actually enjoy travel. I can look into other business projects. I can just relax. And it's a business and a lifestyle that I want. And I know that other people want as well. So that's what I'm going to be focusing on for the rest of 2024. It's June now. I'm still running my community for freelancers. And some of my community members are actually joining me already in this new community called the email lifestyle. But yeah, that's what I'm going to be focusing on. I still have actually one or two two email copywriting clients that I've been working with long-term. And I really enjoy, I just enjoy writing. So, and I enjoy them as not just clients, but people as well. So yeah, I'm fulfilling kind of like that creative side of me, but then also this kind of this side that enjoys building. So yeah, that's what I'm going to be focusing on. - Love it. So the last question for you, and this is something I've asked a lot of people on the show. In fact, I might've even asked you the first time we talked. So if I did, we'll have to see if you give the same answer or not, but if you could go back in time and give just starting out Francis some advice to make things either easier or better or faster, more profitable, you know, to improve it in some way, what would you say to him? - I think, I would say, you know, think of a goal that you want to accomplish. Find one strategy that is proving to work and just stick to that strategy for like six to 12 months. You know, I think, especially in the beginning, a lot of people who are a little bit new, they tend to overwhelm themselves with building a business or getting clients. And so they think, oh, I should post on Facebook or actually create a Twitter account or I should create a newsletter or I should just do outreach. You know, they're like, what should I do? And it's like a lot of these strategies work. And I think you should find the one that's really proving to work and just focus on that. So add all your energy into that and you're going to one, like simplify the process 'cause you have one strategy to follow, but I also think you're going to get to that goal a lot faster because all your energy is in one place. So I think it's a little bit different than what I said. I think what I said originally was like, get mentors, but yeah, I think find the goal and stick to one strategy to reach that goal and that'd be it. - Thanks Francis for coming back on the show, catching us up on what's been happening in your business and just sharing so much. I think the business that you've built is really interesting. There are a lot of copywriters who would like to have something similar where they're not entirely dependent on client work, but have some other income. And I think the opportunity to replicate what you've created across niches, you know, helping coaches or, you know, whatever you're talking to in your niche, SaaS, company owners, founders, whatever, to do something very similar to what you've created. So I just like hearing about some of those details, really appreciate it. If somebody wants to follow you and get on your email list, where should they go? - Yeah, well, I no longer have the Nomad newsletter. I know some people even from the copywriter club community, they'll even message me and be like, listen to your podcast, look at the nomad newsletter.com that you talked about as well. And it's not there, I'm like, that's different now. But if you want to keep up with me, it's called freedomthroughemail.com. Just read them through email. And yeah, join my newsletter that way, stay in touch with me, read my stuff, and yeah, we'll keep in touch. - Fantastic, awesome. Again, thanks for coming back. And yeah, maybe we'll have you come back again in three or four more years and report back on how the business has changed. But I look forward to that day. And yeah, thank you so much for having me. (upbeat music) - That's our interview with Frances. As I usually do, I want to add just a comment or two on the things that we talked about. First, let's talk about daily emails for just a second. So Laura Belgrade, one of the guests in a previous episode that was go back and look at it. It's episode 251. She said something that has resonated, banged around in my brain for months and she told us this and she simply said, the more you mail, the more you email, the more you sell. And if you're only emailing once a week or once a month, that's only one opportunity or two opportunities, three opportunities a month in order to sell. Others who've expressed something really similar who've been on the podcast before, you can go back and find them. I don't remember the episode numbers off the top of my head, but people like Daniel Trussell, Justin Goff, Ian Stanley have all said something very similar and they run businesses where they're mailing their lists, if not daily, almost daily. And we found this to be true in our businesses as well, the more you mail, the more you sell. Recently, Tech writer who wanted to become a copywriter joined our list and within just a couple of days, he responded to one of our daily emails saying that mailing every day was not a good way to build a brand or to build a relationship with readers. And basically said, hey, if we're gonna email every single day, we're gonna lose him as a potential customer. Well, in my experience, that's just simply not true. Yes, some people don't wanna be emailed daily and that's totally fair. That's why there is an unsubscribe link at the bottom of every email that we sell and it should be at the bottom of every email that you send out as well. But what he was saying is just not true. If a daily emailer stops emailing, somebody that I'm following, I actually notice that. But I don't notice it when I don't get a weekly or a monthly email because it's not showing up enough on my radar for me to even realize that it's been a couple of weeks or it's been a month or two since they last heard from this person. Daily emailers should do it and do it right and build a real relationship are doing something that you simply can't do if you're not in your inbox on a pretty close to daily basis. There's a psychological phenomenon called the mere exposure effect that helps explain why this works. That is the more you're exposed to something, even if it's not something that you absolutely love but the more that you're exposed to it, the more you're around it, the more it starts to feel familiar and the more you actually start to like it. And so obviously there's a huge caveat here. If you are sending out crap, if you're sending out stuff that your audience doesn't wanna hear or it's not applicable to them, yeah, they're gonna turn it off, they're gonna stop opening the emails. But if you're sending out helpful, insightful, ideaful type emails and you're showing up, able to help, to teach, to inspire, that exposure over time helps build a relationship and helps people ultimately want to spend more time with you, possibly even buy from you. So thinking about daily emails, if you're not sending out a daily email and for a lot of us, that might be too much. Maybe you don't have the business that requires that. The very least send out a weekly email to your list or work with clients and help them send out three times a week or more than, certainly more than once a month, which is not enough to build those kinds of relationships. So if you're doing that, this is a really great way to change your business for the better and like Laura Belgrade told us, we're back in episode 251, the more you mail, the more you sell. Also just wanna touch base on what we're talking about at the end about mentors, thinking about what it is that you wanna build, what it is that you want to be, the kind of business that you want to run. Find somebody who is out there, who's done that. That's the kind of mentor that you want, whether it's just to learn from afar, so you join their list, you follow what they say, you're reading what they're posting on social media or in their emails, or even you go deeper, join their communities, join their programs, purchase something from them, so that you have that relationship with them. Find the people who have done the things that you want to do. Make sure that you do your research. Don't just buy a program or sign up with a mentor because you read a great sales page and you feel like you need that thing. Make sure that they've done what they promise they're going to help you do. From myself, anytime that I've felt like I've needed new guidance or feedback, I invest in it and I invest in mentors who help me to get there. We've had many of those people on the podcast to share some of the stuff that they know, but even just one idea from a mentor can transform a business. So one idea shared in an email, if you're just following them and not paying them. One idea shared in a course or a program can change your business and can have a massive payoff. And I'm gonna take the opportunity here to just drop a plug for the copywriter underground. We've built six figure businesses. We've pitched and landed high paying clients. We've helped hundreds of other copywriters build their own successful businesses. To people like Justin Blackman and Shanti Sack and Linda Perry and Francis Nyan and others. The investment in a program like the copywriter underground is such a bargain, less than $100 a month, less than $90 a month. And the results, if you do the work, if you implement the ideas, if you take the insights that are shared and just do them can literally put thousands of dollars into your hands. Again, if you do the work, I'm just gonna throw that out there. Okay, thanks to Francis Nyan for joining us to talk about creating a product business powered through daily email. You can find Francis on Twitter. His handle there is Francis_Nyan. And of course you can send it for his almost daily emails at freedomthroughemail.com. As I mentioned at the top of the show, Francis is going to be joining me in the copywriter underground to unpack his business model, talk about product creation and reveal his social media and daily email strategies so that you can build a business like his. But to get that training, you've got to be a member. It's exclusively for underground members. Go to the copywriterclub.com/tcu and join today. That's the end of this episode of the copywriter club podcast. The intro music was composed by a copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Munner. If you've enjoyed what you've heard, please visit Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts to leave your review and let us know what you like, what you thought about this episode or the show overall. Better still, show this episode with another copywriter or content writer that you know who will learn something from it. Just send them a quick email, attach a link to the show and send it off. Thanks for listening. We will see you next week. ♪ Copywriters coming together ♪ ♪ To help the world write better ♪ ♪ Copy and make more money ♪ ♪ Kira and Rob's ♪ ♪ Copywriters club that can make you lots of money ♪ ♪ Listen to the Kira and Rob's ♪ ♪ Copywriters club can make you lots of money ♪ ♪ As long as you listen through the whole damn episode ♪ [MUSIC PLAYING]
