Cartoonist Katie Skelly joins the show to talk about her new book, Operation Margarine (AdHouse Books), which is really just an opportunity for us to talk about Barthes, Edie Sedgwick, and The Maxx, before getting to the moment when she was 15 and read the least "YA"-friendly book ever for all the wrong reasons. Along the way, we also talk about how she manages to work on her comics while holding down a (respectable) full-time job, why she'd rather hunt for a rare comic than buy something new, what it was like to belong to a high school anime club that only had two members. Give it a listen!
"6 o'clock hits, it's time to leave the office; what are you going to do with the four or five hours you have before going to sleep?"The Virtual Memories Show
Season 4, Episode 21 - Theory and Practice
"I'm never gonna be a parent, but if I were, I'd be like, 'We're skippin' this Goodnight, Moon thing; you're goin' to Pale Fire.'"
[music] Welcome to The Virtual Memories Show. I'm your host Gil Roth, and you're listening to a weekly podcast about books and life, not necessarily in that order. You can subscribe to the show through the iTunes Store, and you can find past episodes, visit on our email list, and make a donation to the show at our website, chimeraabscura.com/vm. Or to make it easier, I've got us a new site, VMSPod.com. You can find us on Twitter at VMSPod at facebook.com/virtualmemoriesshow, and at virtualmemoriespodcast.tumbler.com. I just got back for my third straight year of attending the Piraeus Seminar at St. John's College down in Annapolis, Maryland. This time around we worked on some poems by Robert Frost, and there were some pretty illuminating moments, but I have to admit I had a lot more fun just having conversations with other alumni of the college outside of the classroom. I also got in a podcast there with a tutor I've known since 1992, and that'll air in a few weeks. Those things seem to go pretty well, since there's a lot of history at St. John's, and well, students and other alumni really like listening to what the tutors have to say. I feel kind of bad because the first Piraeus that I went to in 2012, I have to admit, it really has been the best of the three so far, but there are a bunch of things that might account for it. I mean, first, that was the first time I'd been back to the school in 17 years, and that by itself just meant a lot to me, diving back into that whole world where people care about reading books and talking about them. Secondly, the subject that first year was the stories of Flannery O'Connor. I'd never read her before, so I had a great experience just discovering and being able to talk with people about such a great artist. Second time around was Moby Dick, which I'd read a few times before, and which might be too big for a four-day conversation. In fact, that's why I picked the Robert Frost this time, just because the other Piraeus that was going on was in Dante's Divine Comedy, well, at least the Inferno, and I felt we might not be able to encompass that in the span of four days either. But as it is, I just don't really know how to discuss poetry in a group of two dozen people, so I'm thinking I may have had some limitations that hamstrung me this time. Still, that was my idea of vacation. I had to talk a little too much about my new gig, but I made sure to preface it by saying this is the most boring stuff in the world, so please don't think you have to pretend it's interesting. I think what they found interesting wasn't really the subject, but the way that I'm diving into it as completely as I am. Anyway, the new business is progressing well, and I'll tell you about that some other time. I had a four-hour drive home on Sunday, so I listened to a few of Mark Marin's podcasts, including his milestone 500th episode that just went up last week. That one had some really touching moments, but I'm thankful that even though he's the inspiration for this show, or for me to do this show, I don't have a life like his and don't have the addiction issues and crazy family stuff and everything else. I'm just some guy in New Jersey who runs the Pharmaceutical Trade Association and likes to interview people about books. Anyway, my guest for this week's show is the cartoonist Katie Skelly, who's got a new graphic novel out, Operation Marjorin from Ad House Books. Now, past guest of mine, Tom Spurgeon, turned me on to Katie's comics last year, and I found her first book, Nurse Nurse, pretty enjoyable, but this new one makes a real leap in terms of visual style and storytelling, and you guys know I'm a sucker for seeing the arc of an artist's creative process and sort of talking to them about what they discovered in the course of working on new stuff. Now Katie's also one of the few people in cartooning who's actually seen me in my secret identity. I was once walking back to my car from a meeting at Pfizer's headquarters in Midtown Manhattan, just as two women were walking out of an office building in front of me, and I knew one of them from somewhere, but I just couldn't place her. Luckily, it was Katie and she recognized me even in suit and tie and said hello. Now, while we were up at the Toronto Comic Arts Festival this May, Katie sat down with me to talk about the new book and we got into a discussion of her cartooning and literary influences, and just why she used the title of a Roland Barthe essay for this new comic book. But anyway, now you get the virtual memories conversation with Katie Skellie. The notion of making art, having a day job, and being in a sense part of the, we'll say gift economy. In the sense of you do stuff, you're putting things out for free initially, and then selling down the line. How do you see yourself as a participant within that, and reconciling day job and making art? Let's see, I think the day job supports, can you hear me on it? Yeah, yeah, I love this good. I think the day job supports the work, and that it gives me this structure so I don't just become a crazy person, in that I have my health insurance, I have my dental insurance, I can go see my therapist once a week, which is very important. Yeah, I can pay the rent on my place, and then any sort of spare time that I have goes into the work. So yeah, I mean in terms of it being a gift economy, I think that's an interesting kind of funny way to put it, especially as it kind of pertains to Mike Kelly who talks about gift economy, talks about gift economies and art all the time. But I think, yeah, at this point, now that I am working with publishers and stuff like that, that's kind of dissipated a little bit, and I feel like I have more agency and ability to make my own money and sustain myself just a little bit here and there with the books now. I think it's a very chill day job as a predominant, there's no thought of I'm going to hit it big as a cartoonist. No, no, I mean I'm lucky that I really like where I work and I like the kind of work that I do. And it was really funny, one of my co-workers came into my office a couple weeks ago and had seen a post about me, I think on comic book resources, and he's like, "You're going to be able to quit soon," right? And I was like, "Are you saying you want me out of here?" Like, there's no way I'm going to be able to do that in this century, I think. What is the day job, actually? I should tell us a little about that, and then we'll talk about the part-time job. Sure, I work at Japan Society, which is an arts and cultural institution in New York, and I'm the web producer there. So I do, I work on the website, I do a little bit of design here and there, and it's a really good gig. I like it a lot. I love the people that I work with. Do you have flexed the same muscles at all that you're using for storytelling and cartooning? You know, I think it helps me stay organized, and having that organization and ability to manage yourself is really pretty critical when it comes to trying to make your own work. Because you know, at like six o'clock hits, it's time to go, like, "What are you going to do with the four or five hours you have now before you have to go to sleep?" So I get home, and I'm very rigorous, and I have to do this, and then go to the gym, and then I have to work on this stuff now. So you know, it's like when you do that for eight hours anyway, it just feels like this extension of work. It feels like a very natural thing. A previous guest I had spoken to during this weekend, she has a very heavy-duty stippling style for her cartooning, so she talks about 16-hour workdays for some of the stuff she does. So you've got enough open space, and a lot of white area within your stuff. So at least the drawing itself may not take up quite as much time as doing a Drew Friedman esque. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's kind of by necessity. Like, that's just how I have to work, that's how I have to draw. You know, I've made a lot of economical choices in the design that I've been doing lately, and I think a lot of that just comes from, like, "I don't have time to do a really complicated background." So, like, let's get the most essential elements and put those in and see what we can remove, you know, in order to, like, speed this up a little bit. And is that why the new book largely takes place in the desert? I, yeah, I think that that helps, like, that setting kind of helps push that design along. But I also, like, am really fascinated by the desert, and I love the desert so much. I love just, like, big, open spaces, you know, because you live in New York, and you're so inundated with everything all the time. So yeah, I love the desert, I went to Iceland, I love Iceland, for the same sort of reasons. Like, when I get out of town, I really like to, like, get out of town. Like, I want to feel like I'm on a different planet. I'm telling you, where I lived, it's only 25 miles from the city, but it's bare, wild turkey, you know, deer wandering through the yard, and, you know, all sorts of hills and sort of glacial deposits, but you can actually see Manhattan from our town, and it's a little skyline drive. The road out of town is a big view of Midtown from 25 miles away, but, yeah, it's really a different world, but close enough that we can still complain about the traffic, like, that's the second. And how did you get started in comics? Um, I was always drawing comics, like, from a pretty early age, I'd say it started over on, like, five or six, um, I started drawing this, like, crazy Mickey Mouse comics, and I found some recently when I was at my parents' house, and they just, like, looked like these drawings with someone who's on acid, like, Mickey Mouse is having a picnic, and then, like, mini just, like, keeps getting bigger, and, like, then there's a sun that has, like, sunglasses on. It's, like, very, I kind of wish I was still drawing like that, because I was, like, that's really engaging and good, um, maybe I'll get back to that, that kind of style. Um, but yeah, I started doing that, and then when I was in high school, I just got really into, you know, going to the local comic shop and picking stuff up and, um, reading comics like all the time, and then when I was in college, um, I went to Syracuse University, I started doing some, like, strips for the daily newspaper there, and then it just kind of kept going and going, and then, uh, I graduated from college and I started working on Nurse Nurse. And what sort of comics were you reading in the, uh, in your early comic shop era, folks against superhero type stuff, or was it already, you know, given that my own progression was the crap superheroes of the '70s, um, only discovering the indies and love in rockets when I got to college, which is sort of a golden age to have the Hernandez brothers and clouds and all those guys publishing regularly. Um, you were coming after that because you're so goddamn young, you're so mean. Yeah, I'm 12. It's so weird. It's so weird to be here. I can't believe I saw you on a bar yesterday, how did you get in? Um, yeah, I don't know, being 12 is really cool. No, I, um, I started reading, uh, like, the Macs, I loved the Macs, um, I started getting into manga at that time. This magazine called Pulp was coming out, and I would try to pick that up, like, every single time. There was a new issue in the comic book store, and it was, um, like, a magazine of sort of underground manga, uh, which was really cool, so you'd see stuff like dance until tomorrow, um, some junko, misunas, stuff, uh, bacuni fish, uh, is that what it's called? Or is it called a good day for banana fish? It's named after the- It's a talent or story. Um, but yeah, that, uh, that was really cool. That was like a whole level of exposure to a different world of storytelling, different types of stories that I'd never really seen in comics, and then I talked about this yesterday at the, um, erotic comics panel that I was on, but I also, like, discovered Dave Cooper, and Dave Cooper's Ripple when I was, like, 14, which is, you know- Far too young for- I don't like, what age is appropriate for Ripple, you know what I mean, like, um, but that, that same sort of thing where I was like, I had no idea you could tell stories like this with comics. I thought it would just all be, like, superhero, or, like, gags, or, you know, whatever. So that was, that was pretty, um, revelatory for me. And how's your art history background play into, at all, your work within comics? Mm, I think, um, just having, like, studied theory really helps me, um, I'm not really sure how to explain it. I think, like, having studied theory helps me explain what I'm doing a little bit better, so, like, when I go onto a panel, I feel, like, a little bit more prepared, and I don't- And just have a framework for discussing your stories, though. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, and I'm trying my hand now a little bit more, like, um, actually writing about comics, like, earlier this year I wrote about, um, uh, the adventures of Jodel for the comics journal. Uh, and that was a really good experience, because I hadn't really taken, like, what I learned in art history and applied it to comics, like, with that same language yet. Um, so that was new, and that was, that was, like, a really good learning experience for me. Yeah, what correlations do you find? Um, well, actually, like, the thing about art history and theory in art history is that it's all, like, cross-disciplinary. Like, there's not really any theory that's just from art history, you know, maybe, like, formalism. You could maybe argue that, like, some Greenbergian formalism is just for art history. But as for everything else, like, psychoanalysis, um, film theory plays into it, um, marks this theory plays into. Like, so those are the ways that you read art, like, contemporary art now. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I was able to kind of take, like, uh, looking at, like, the crying of lot 49 and kind of apply that same plot structure to Jodel, which is one of my favorite books. Um, uh, looking a little bit at, like, the sexual politics of the book. Um, you know, what you would do in, like, more of a film theory class as well, but sometimes that same language gets applied to art history, too. Um, so yeah, I was really, like, like, happy to write about the book in those terms, as opposed to just being like, "I really loved it and the Johns are so good and the colors are crazy," which they are. Um, and I do really love it, but, you know, I think, I think when a book like that comes out, it deserves, like, better sort of treatment than just, like, "I'm so excited, I'm such a fanan." That was a novelty for me of discovering the comics journal around that same time of, of '89 or so when, when I was getting into my indie phase, uh, that sense that you could actually treat these things with rigor and some sort of intellectual analysis, um, which you can't really do so much with the X-Men and, and, you know, the, the comics that I sorted youth. I mean, you could. There was an existentialist vibe throughout Chris Claremont's writing, I'll admit to it, but, you know, at the same time, it was infantile. Um... Well, then, go start some more. I don't, that's, that's, we all have our, our crap taste. I was talking with a, um, one of the participants here at the show about, uh, hyper-intellectual pal, um, of mine, who has possibly the most middle-brow taste outside of his field. Uh, you know, within literature, he's, he's astronomically, you know, high up there and then in movies, he likes, you know, like White House Down, you know, just, just, so, so yeah, we have these, these, you know, I guess gaps in the genres that we did versus, you know, what we like for entertainment. Now, your new book, Operation Marjorren, um, the title for it comes from Roland Barth. I personally developed an incredible aversion to, to theory back in college because, um, it was a late 80s and early 90s and I went to a very, uh, theory-driven undergrad institution. Um, so walk me through your, your barth and what it means to you and I sort of how you use it as an undertone in this, uh, this book beyond simply the title. Um, you know, I, I've like, not really, I'm not really sure how to develop an answer for that because I feel like this is something that's going to keep coming up, possibly. I mean, like, not a lot of people have, you know, read mythologies that might like intersect with comics in this way, um, so I'm still working on my, like, platonic idea of an answer for that. But, um, you know, for me just kind of the mythologies as a whole and breaking down these elements of pop culture, um, as they pertain to, you know, like, like I kind of said earlier, um, Marxism, um, hegemony, power structures, um, and even just kind of like, deeper, cerebral things and like how the mind kind of works with ideas of like, stake and eggs, like what does that sort of mean to like the French population at that time? Um, with Operation Margarine, you know, the idea is sort of that like you can, uh, like boost something by stating it's flaws and then use those flaws to kind of like, explain why it's a good thing. So the idea that like, oh yes, like the army costs so much money and we know that and it's bad and it's flawed in that way, but don't you feel safer now that we have this army and it's protecting us? Um, so as that applies to, you know, the actual comic book Operation Margarine, um, I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense personally, I always really loved that title, um, and the argument in that is that, you know, um, even the butter is better, you know, margarine is cheaper, so like, that's the virtue of margarine over butter. Um, so I guess my kind of like, idea was that I would throw out on like the first couple pages these archetypes of characters and say like, this girl is bad, this girl is like a runaway, this girl is, you know, troubled or whatever, and then see like, how you can kind of get, um, to that level of like, you know, bringing those people up despite having those flaws. Do you know what I mean? So it's a little bit convoluted. I don't think, I'm not 100% convinced that like that actually works, but that was how I started. So that was the thing. It's a starting point, got a good book out of it, and you have an Edie Sedgwick looking lead character in margarine, which I appreciated just for my Warhol appreciation days, I suppose. What leads to your, your sort of character designs, what's your, um, approach? Well, I was, I read the Edie Sedgwick biography by George Plumpton when I was working on it, and I was just so, I was so fascinated by her. And I always kind of have been, like, uh, when I was a teenager, I had this, um, Andy Whirlposter in my room. Even before I knew who they were, you know, I just like had gone to my local like record shop and, uh, picked up this velvet underground poster, and this, uh, poster of Andy Whirlp and Edie Sedgwick. And I leaped up wine, just like posing in New York City. And I kind of felt like, that's what I want to be. You know, I was like a teenager, and I'm like from Pennsylvania, and everything is just very, um, very sort of like suburban and Catholic and, um, just kind of like removed from culture, I felt like, um, so I was like, who are these like sexy people in this black and white photograph just like mugging and looking great in New York? Um, so that was sort of like aspirational for me. And then, you know, throughout high school, um, started like reading the Warhol Diaries and, um, getting more into that stuff. So, I mean, in terms of character design, I feel like I always kind of start from that place of like, who, who looks like interesting, who looks like somebody that, you know, if they picked up this book, they might want to like know them or be them, you know? Um, yeah. So the Edie Sedgwick thing, I feel like, um, you know, she was such a like fragile personality, obviously, um, and just such a mess, and I wanted to kind of like play around and see, um, what would happen if that personality like could kind of, um, like triumph in a way as opposed to, you know, just become utterly, sending into, exactly, become utterly like decimated by her own, you know, problems. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll share with you my, my theory of the studio versus George Plimpton's Paris Review Offices and how they, I'll share it with you now, um, my belief, and it stemmed from the oral history of George Plimpton that came out of a few years after his death, George being George, um, they had one quote about being scared the first time he went in to meet Andy Warhol to interview him for the Edie Sedgwick book. And given that this is a guy who lined up his quarterback behind the Detroit Lions and did all this other crazy stuff and is his career, I thought, why on earth is that man scared of, of meeting Andy Warhol and talking to him? And that got me thinking in my, my artistic but never quite achieving anything way, um, to start contrasting Plimpton and his patrician waspie Paris Review world, um, largely Protestants a few, a high class, well-educated Jews to, um, Warhol and the factory and all the broken Catholics and other absolute messes and people coming up from poverty and staying in there and the drag queens and everything else, um, that if I really had the ingenuity and thought behind it, I would do a sort of plutarch, you know, parallel lives and then have Warhol and then Plimpton as these two, you know, shadows of each other, um, with Edie Sedgwick as the bridge between them coming from that, that waspie world, but being so fragile and broken that she ends up in, in Warhol's strange, more primal Catholic, feel free to use this for a comic, by the way, 'cause I'm never going to get around to writing it, so, so we can collaborate, uh, and this is my sole contribution, um, I'm down, yeah, I forget the studio versus the, the waspie, and your offices are relatively close to the Paris Review, uh, or Plimpton's old, old place, you know, uh, well, we're also close to the, um, original site of the factory, uh, on 40th century. See, you're some sort of nexus, it's a good thing we met up to talk about this, so, do you have a freak out moments, um, meeting certain cartoonists at this point, um, or have you over the years? No, because I, I, I haven't really like met anyone that, um, I think the like, teenager and even freak out over, and that's not like a knock to nobody ever met, someone, um, someone at the Sherry's to do like, right, first thing in the morning was like, oh, is there anyone here excited to see at the show? And like, I just spent, you know, like, so much time traveling and like, lugging it back around and getting in and getting changed and doing the whole thing. I'm excited to have a show or I was like, no, I'm not. And then they were like, oh, well, I have a good one, man. Um, but, uh, yeah, I feel like I would like, really lose, lose it over meeting Sam Keith. Yeah. I really want to meet him. I haven't seen him in so many years. I haven't seen his work, so I don't know what he's, what he's doing unless he's an animation at this point, but I have no idea. I think that would, that would be my like, freak out person. And then I, you know, probably like meeting Dan Klaus and probably freak out too. Um, I don't know. There's nobody that I've freaked out over though. There are people that I'm really excited about. Like every time I see Helen Joe, I'm like, oh my god, I'm so happy to see you. I'm so happy you're doing this stuff. Yes, but someone you'd be absolutely star struck around. Um, would pretty much be Klaus and Sam Keith. Um, yeah, let me think of anybody else. Um, maybe like Marie Severin, which is still alive, right? Yeah, yeah, got it. I'm just posted a few pictures of her at her birthday. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I was so sensitive. She's a legend, but you always have to worry about legends, you know, especially in comics. Yeah. You're not exactly set up. And who else do you see as, as cartooning influences for you? And was there any Ted McKeever at all going into, to nurse nurse? I just love the elongated bodies and the sort of edge shape. And just for some reason, it reminded me of Eddie current comics that came out before you were born. Um, in 1990. No, I, um, I was more than 85. Um, I, I don't really think so. I think, um, with nurse nurse, it was really more like manga sort of based stuff. Um, uh, particularly, um, I believe Yoshiyuki Sarumoto, who did, um, the designs for Neon Genesis Evangelion, which I'm not too proud to talk about about that, whatever. Um, there are no guilty pleasures. That's, that's one of the great lessons is that we all have our, our dumb stuff that we love. Yeah. Yeah. It's, are you sure it's dumb stuff, though? I really think like Evangelion is like pretty good. I never watch it because all mangoes trash, or all may is trash, but yeah. Well, anime is like a certain kind of soul cancer, for sure, for like a certain type of person, it can really be corrosive. I mean, yeah. Did you go through that phase? I've seen it happen. Uh, I very narrowly avoided it. I had an anime club in high school. It was me and one other person, um, which, you know, I'm still very proud of, but yeah. I, I wanted to find out what happened to my other like anime club friend. Um, so I just looked her up the other day and I found her on Twitter and she was fighting with the guys who do the Penny arcade comic and I was like, we are exactly so proud. Like, yeah, girl, get it. Um, what was your question? I'm sorry. Oh, artistic influences. Um, I would say Tezika, for sure. Um, in terms of like decompression of action, I like things to be spaced out. I don't like to have, I'm not a Jack Kirby. I don't want to have a ton of stuff on a page. Um, I would like, you know, accessibility in comics is really important to me. Like, readability. Um, yeah, I, I don't like things to get bogged down with a lot of text or a lot of, you know, crosshatching or gradients or sort of like extra stuff. Like, I really do just like black and white. Um, I love, uh, Leiji Matsumoto, who did, um, Galaxy Express. Um, he did a couple of erotic comics that I'm trying to find. Um, one is called Sexaroid. It looks, it looks so dope. Like, I really, really want to find it. There are some gay manga dealers here at the TK, or some publishers here at TK. Yeah, I love that. I love that that's having like this nice sort of like Renaissance in the States right now. And I'm maybe not even Renaissance, but like it's, it's kind of all coming out now. Well, it was a funny thing about last year's, uh, Toronto Festival, uh, a very, very, very, very, very hardcore gay manga pornography cartoonist was here. Yeah. And it's a kid-friendly show. And they managed to strike that balance of having Takame there and, and not like hidden in some side room with an adult's only thing, but still managed to be, you know, open and have kids and a huge kids weighing in everybody's there to see, you know, this one and that one, but also possibly the most disturbing, you know, gay pornographic. I love it. I love it there. I mean, this show is kind of a miracle in that like you really can't. I've never seen it happen like that anywhere else. Yeah. Um, so and then, you know, I also like, I love Barbara, I love Barbara. I love Jean-Claude Forest. Um, uh, I love that Barbara had like this life cycle where it started as this like kind of softcore goofy like space sex-romp thing. And then it becomes, um, in later issues like Barbara has a child with Jean-Claude Forest like a character. Like he, Mary Sues himself, like puts himself into his own comic and has a child with Barbara. So, um, and I think it's the Moon child, if I'm not mistaken. Um, so I love that. I love Jodel, um, Guy Peleart. I never know how to say it's, um, Belgian, Peleart, whatever. Um, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. I, I'm trying to like get into find some more like growth press comics, like Barbara Rella and then, oh, I can't, uh, Scarlet Dream, I think is the other one that I really want to find. Um, so now it's like, I really just like challenging myself to find books. You know, like, I kind of have a hard time when I like go into a comic book store and I see like contemporary stuff. And I'm kind of like, I don't know what I like here. I'd rather go like on eBay and look for this one like Jim Hewlett comic that you drew with Pulp like, you know, 20 years ago and spend 70 bucks on that. Like, I'm kind of like more into that face now. Anything also, it's like, you know, I don't like, like shared experiences really, like I don't like to be in the comic book store with like everybody. So I was like, like, I, I'm enjoying teacap to be sure. Yeah, that's going to ask me, not in a bad way, but just what the convention circuit is like for you. How do you, how do you get along in this sort of scene? It's sort of like Hicksville where everybody's a cartoonist and that can really get tiresome after a while. But you know, how's your experience with it? I like to just like get off campus. I like to have like, you know, one friend that I've got at the show and I'm like, man, let's just like book it. Like, let's get, let's go to Greetown, let's like eat for like six hours and then like go to a bar. And then we ended up at kind of like the party last night. It's like, all right. Catch you later. Because he finds like, you know, I've got two or three things to say to people. You know, like we're not, we're kind of like not friends. You know, I mean, like, like there are people that I like for sure, but I don't know for some reason, like, I'm like, Oh, should I tell them about like my job? Should I talk about food? I really don't know sometimes. That's like, how long can you talk about Scarlet Dream? Like, oh, we were trying to check out Scarlet Dream. Until you find the right, the right person who I actually have a copy of this. You know, that's why I have to keep the search. I might find that someone. You know, to me, that was a big part of of being a comics reader growing up was simply the finding the right issue and and getting out. And you know, in my case, again, it was perhaps superhero comics 70s and 80s, but it was still that sense of fulfillment that comes from, you know, finding that one, that one thing I was talking about it with with Seth when we're recording earlier at the show, given that he's very much a collection or collecting oriented guy and how that's not as fun or not as fulfilling nowadays when you can just type away find the thing order and get it. There's no, you know, going into a store and finding the the first Alan Moore issue of Swamp Thing in the 25 cent bin because somebody had missed missed filed it, which was one of my great achievements during grad school beyond, you know, the thesis and basketball and everything else there was was, I got a $20 comic for 25 cents. But yeah, that world sort of sort of gone, I think, and I think it's sort of just gone from like the world a little bit in general, you know, like, I don't know, for whatever reason, I always like when I'm like a consumer, I like to be like kind of challenged as a consumer, like I'd rather like go down to like the East Village and like hit every consignment store like in that area, which is like, you know, 10 or 15 and like look for something to buy and like where they're rather than like hit, you know, an H&M or like whatever all the time. And even that it's like going and it's like, oh, well, now they just only have like H&M clothes in there, you know, so I feel like like the challenge of like getting things that I really like is is like almost gone because the things that I really like are like extinct. It might partly be a function of being in New York because I went out to Columbus a month and a half ago for the Bill Watterson and Richard Thompson thing because I'm a giant nerd and was floored to find the number of like used bookstores and other things of that oak in the area. I didn't know these still existed. Okay, I'm gonna go in because in North Jersey, New York, pretty much that sort of culture is gone. And being able to just, you know, walk around and look at one of those book barn places where there's every square inch of the thing is covered with books and you're just looking as I haven't had this since, you know, my college years and sit so nice to, you know, find something like that again. So maybe you have to leave New York is what I'm saying. Maybe, I don't know, LA seems kind of cool. I just don't have a car. Yeah, that could be an issue. And having a soul, no, New York's kind of soul. But it's still in a way that I really like. Yeah. Yeah, like when I'm walking around here and people are in my way, like, I just kind of push them because that's what I do in New York. And it's not a big deal. And people are like, well, why are you pushing? Yeah, that was another part of the South conversation. The community of Canadians compared to, you know, our incredibly brash here. I like it. It's how I get stuff done. Who you're reading in prose, not comics. I've been reading the Nancy Jo sales expanded version of the article, the Suspect World Oobatons, which is called The Bling Ring. It's about teenagers that rob a bunch of homes in Calabasas, California. And I am obsessed with it. It's very tabloidy. And for whatever reason, that like always scratches a particular itch that I have, like, tabloidy stuff. So I'm really enjoying that. And it's good reading on the plane. Yeah, I like to deny that that tabloid that's as long as I can. And then it was years ago. But for me, the Lizzie Grubman thing out on Long Island was just so absolutely Dickensian. And for the outside of the clock. And I'm just going to enjoy this as long as it goes. I'm fine with, you know, just just wallowing in in how bad, you know, of course, now everything is tabloid, in its sense. Do you see that sort of thing adapting or getting incorporated into your next work? I really, I mean, we're really thinking about doing this, like, Valley of the Dolls kind of story. Like, I really want to do something about, like, fame and, like, LA and kind of decrepit morals. Like, something that would, like, really scare, like, my mom. Not that what I'm doing now, like, doesn't. Yeah, how much of a consideration is that? How do your folks feel about your work? Oh, they, like, they think I'm, like, a total degenerate. But they, they love me, you know, like, so I think, at this point, it's almost like a don't-ass don't tell thing. Like, when, when Margin came out, they were like, "Oh, did your book come on?" And I was like, "Yeah." And they're like, "Oh, that's great." But before they'd be like, "What is this nurse, nurse? Is this, like, dirty?" And I'd be like, "No, no, no, you know." And now that I am actually doing, like, these, like, legitimate dirty comics for, um, Sluttice.com, uh, that's, that's, like, a big no-no, like, I'm like, "I'll never speak of this." Like, they will never know. And they're, like, not really big with Google or anything like that. So, you know. And it's also like, what do you have to do? Like, I'm a grown woman. I'm 12. And it's, you know. Yeah, I see the, you know. Seriously, I agree to which you, you'll never, again, being Catholic, there's a similarity to being Jewish. You will always be the kid. Uh, you, uh, you have siblings, or you'll be the youngest. Yeah, I'm the youngest one. Yeah, so you're doomed. You're doomed. Uh, you will always be the, the, the little girl. And they will never really forgive you. Uh, speaking of little girls, uh, apparently, uh, previous conversation of ours, uh, your favorite book. Um, or at least the book you, you professed to enjoy, uh, regularly as Lolita by Nabokov. What's your history with, uh, with that book? How old were you when you, you first read it? Um, if, if I might just say, like, I kind of like disagree with young adult as like a genre, you know, because when I was a young adult, you know, when I was 10, two years ago, when I was a young adult, I just started reading adult stuff. Yeah. And like, that really helped me, I think. Like, you know, being exposed to ripple and then being exposed to like, Philip Roth and just going, um, Tolstoy, you know, like, just really getting into it. Like, it was a big challenge. So, you know, when I see young adults of, no, I'm like, this is so pandering to me. Yeah. Like, when I, like, kids aren't, kids, kids don't need to be like taught these lessons about like self esteem. I feel like kids need to just be like pushed into stuff. I'm never going to be a parent, by the way. But if I were, I would be like, look, we're skipping this good night moon thing. You're going to pale fire. Like, we're doing this the right way. Um, but all of that is to say that I read Lolita, um, when I was 15 or 16. Yeah. And then grab your hand. And I actually brought my copy of my, um, my copy of Lolita when I was 16. Yeah. And I just like, show you, like, prove it, you know. Because I, I actually have a segment I wanted to do with the show for the very beginning that everybody thinks is a great idea, but nobody can figure out how to participate in, call secondhand loves books or authors that you read when you were younger, not in school. Um, you hate it at the time, but grew to adore, enjoy, appreciate. And for me, it started with a movie that I completely didn't get. And then years later, oh, that was me, not them. I get it now. Um, but when it came to books, it was the toughest thing for me to come up with one. Um, until I remembered how much I disliked, uh, Lolita when I was 23, when I read the first time, which I think was something, uh, Orwell, uh, referred to in his, his great Henry Miller essay as a staunch refusal to be impressed. And I just, it had a reputation. I, I steadfastly like refused to appreciate what was there. Also, I was a knucklehead and reading it maybe nine, 10 years later, I got, oh, yeah, no, the book got a lot better. Um, yeah, that, that's what happened. But what was your experience, you know, starting at that far younger age? Um, I, I thought like, this was going to be erotica. You know, like, I thought it was, um, it was controversial book. And I'm like, oh, this is, um, going to be really sexy. And I'm going to learn about sex is something. Yeah. Oops. And so it's like that Simpson's episode where they get the fake ID and, um, they use it to go to, uh, see the, the adaptation of Naked Lunch. And Nelson points out with the son, I think I got two things wrong with a title of that movie. Yeah, no, exactly. I thought like, oh, this is going to be, um, you know, like, like a turn on is something that got me really into this. Um, I guess, you know, Catholic school, I got all kinds of problems. But, uh, my experience with it was like, I was so like in love with the way that story was told. I love that it started out with like, these are, you know, court documents. Um, this is, uh, the letter from a madman and that kind of like, you know, this is a public service announcement to like create a better world for our children and for society. And I was like so blown away by that. I hadn't really seen, um, anything that subversive like to that point. And then you get into like Humbert's memoirs. And I was so, um, blown away that like, I felt sympathy for this character because he is a child molester. He's like a rapist. He's a terrible person. Um, but, and then the prose on top of that, like, I've, I still to this point feel like I've never read anything that can be so like, uh, like incredibly succinct about certain things. And like, you get so much information from just like one or two sentences, maybe pinched is just kind of the same thing. Like, I think, I feel like a pinched sentence can be an entire novel, like a lesser writer. It can also be two pages long. There is that, but I feel like, like a lesser writer couldn't get all of the ideas in like one pinched sentence, you know? Um, but like, I think what really like first when I met up, Lolita was when he's talking about his, uh, his mother's death. And it's just a parenthetical and it's picnic, comma, lightning. Yeah. That's it. Like, I was so blown away by that. And so, you know, the, the like sexier elements of it, if that's even like appropriate to say, I really don't know how to apply terms. You weren't candid. I think it's legal to say it. I'm right. I look forward to getting cuffed on my way out. Um, but yeah, I just, uh, I was so blown away by, by the beauty of the language and the dark humor in it. I just, I'd never seen anything like it. Never read anything like it to that point. A weirder question, which is more about my own neuroses when it comes to art. How do you make something yourself when your ideals are just that high? When, when you appreciate something, it's that good. How do you get over it being that good and, and, you know, doing something, you know, no offense to your work, your own work that, you know, is it Navacoff? But, you know, you know, this is me. How do you, what was it like having the, you know, I'm not going to measure up to this, that or the other, but I'm going to make my statement. Um, you know, I just, I never really even like, thought in those terms to be totally honest. Okay. So that's Catholic versus you. See, that'll work much more neurotic. Well, I, as a Catholic, I feel like I'm automatically bad. So I'm like, you know, whatever I do is just going to be bad and. Yeah. So we feel automatically guilty, but not necessarily bad. I just feel like corrupt in spirit. That's a different thing. But, uh, yeah, I, I feel like, if I get anywhere close to doing one thing that could be like the equivalent of one sentence in Lolita, you know, if I could get my own picnic lightning, parenthetical, where I do something that's that incredible, that's, that's fantastic. Like I would like to get to level like that, where I can sit down and be like, I had my picnic lightning moment, you know, I will let you get back to your heart. And I hope you get to hit at some point. Katie Skelly, thank you so much for coming on the virtual memory. Thank you. Go. And that was Katie Skelly, her new graphic novel, Operation Marjor in really is a fun piece of work. It's published by Ad House Books. Ad House is one word. And you can find that on their website or better comic shops and I guess other bookstores. You can find out more about Katie and check out her work in progress and her other cartooning projects and just keep up in general with her kind of warp mine by visiting her website, her tumbler or her Twitter feed. You can find those other two on her site. So just go to Katie Skelly comics.com and poke around. That's K-A-T-I-E-S K-E-L-L-Y comics.com. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with a conversation with Rupert Thompson, a British writer whose new novel secrecy just came out in the U.S. In the meantime, please hit up our websites VMS pod.com or chimera obscura.com/vm to make a donation to this ad-free podcast. You can find past episodes on our sites and also get on our show's email list. I send one out every week to let people know about the new show and other little odds and ends. And if you've got ideas for guests, you can drop me a line at groff@chimera obscura.com or at VMS pod on Twitter or at our Facebook page, facebook.com/virtualmemorieshow. And please go to the iTunes store, look up the virtual memories show and leave a review and a rating. The more people do that, the better the chances are that this podcast will get featured whenever anyone searches for incredibly tangentious interviewers talking about books that no one's ever read. Then until next time, I am Gil Roth and you are awesome. Keep it that way. [BLANK_AUDIO]