Drew Friedman, the Vermeer of the Borscht Belt, joins us at the 2nd Ave. Deli in NYC to talk about painting Old Jewish Comedians, being Howard Stern's favorite artist, spending his childhood watching TV and reading comic books, why he left New York, and more!
The Virtual Memories Show
Season 3, Episode 21 - The Guy Who Drew the Liver Spots
(upbeat music) - Welcome to The Virtual Memories Show. I'm your host Gil Roth and you are listening to a weekly podcast about books and life, not necessarily in that order. Now, before we get to this episode's conversation, I want to take care of a little housekeeping. The first thing, I've decided to take the show from bi-weekly to weekly. I kind of found myself worrying a bit about backlogging guests and holding interviews way past their recording date because I have other ones that fit into the schedule and sometimes I try to pair up interviews that didn't necessarily jive just so they could all fit in the bi-weekly run. But I'm feeling pretty confident that I can go weekly, at least through the end of this year, given the number of interviews I've recently recorded as well as the upcoming ones on my slate. So, you got that to look forward to. Secondly, I usually save this stuff to the end of the show, but I've decided to start getting it out of the way up front so that way once the conversation finishes, we can kind of roll right out of here. You can find The Virtual Memories Show on the iTunes Store by searching for virtual memories and clicking through to the show's page. You can also post a rating and review of the show on iTunes, which is something I'd really appreciate. The full archives of The Virtual Memories Show are also available at our website, chimeraobscura.com/vm. If you visit the site, you can join the email list and make a donation to the show via PayPal, which would help offset some of my web hosting and travel and equipment costs. We're also on Twitter at VMSPod on Facebook at facebook.com/virtualmemoriesshow and Tumblr at virtualmemoriespodcast.tumbler.com. And now, on with the show. (upbeat music) - This week's episode features a fun conversation with the Vermeer of the Borscht belt, Drew Friedman. If you're not familiar with his work, he's this really phenomenal painter, semi-cartoonist, does not want to be called a caricaturist and well, you'll get an idea. Here's a quote from Sarah Silverman, the comedian about him. Drew Friedman isn't just a brilliant artist. He takes you to a place. He takes you back in time. He makes you smell the stale cigarettes and cold brisket and you say, thank you for the pleasure. Now, I've enjoyed Drew's work since I first saw the private lives of public figures, comics. He was doing in Spy Magazine in the late '80s, which is going to date me immeasurably. And I was awfully happy when he emailed a few weeks ago to set up a time for us to meet up and record. The problem is he sent that email at 7 a.m. on a Saturday with an invite to meet him a few hours later at the Second Avenue Deli in New York City before noon for lunch and recording. I already had trepidation about recording in a room full of my Jewish brethren gnashing and yammering away, but while I compounded the problem by forgetting to bring my microphone cables, along with my studio in a bag, Drew was pretty understanding when I had the son of a bitch moment when I realized there were no cables to plug in. Because he knew he invited me a bit late, but he offered to record again at his home in Pennsylvania if this one didn't come out right. I assume the recording would be terrible, so I tended to interject and ramble a lot more than I usually do. The bad news is it actually recorded just fine. So there's a buzz of chatter and clatter in the background of this one, but you guys are stuck with a fun conversation and a lot of give and take with a lot of people kind of jabbering in the background. Anyway, here's a little bio of our guest. Drew Friedman is an award-winning illustrator, cartoonist and painter. His work has appeared in raw, weirdo, spy, national lampoon, snarf, the New York Times, mad, the New Yorker, blab, the New York Observer, the Wall Street Journal, honk, rolling stone, field and stream, time, the village voice, entertainment weekly, and many more. His comics and illustrations have been collected in several volumes, the latest, Too Soon, published by Fantagraphics in 2010. His collection of portraits, Drew Friedman's sideshow freaks, was published by Blast Books in 2011. He has published three collections of paintings of old Jewish comedians, but none of old Episcopal comedians. He raises champion Beagles with his wife, K. Beatas, or Bitus. It's B-I-D-U-S, I don't know how it's pronounced. And you should check out Barracuda in the Attic, a memoir by Drew's brother, Kip, also published by Fantagraphics. And now, the somewhat noisy, virtual memory show conversation with Drew Friedman. (upbeat music) So yeah, it sort of put off getting back in touch. I'm like, I got, you know, so many of these things backed up and different people. And then every time I'm good on this one side street where the neighbors have Beagles that go bananas whenever the great hymns go by. Yeah, I really should get in touch with Drew at least a lot of my life, you know. I still want to make sure that-- - Well, it's been on my mind, like, you know, I have to get the reason why I didn't work out. Last time, just one jab. - I didn't really want to drag you up to my house and then meeting in Jersey, you know. Yeah, it was a winter and then they kind of went kind of like, you know, my thinking was, I want to wait to have some products, I mean, some projects to talk about. And now I do, you know, two things on the horizon. So, you know, we'll talk about them over brisket and salmon, of course, but in capers. - Yeah, magic. - Here, what's the first one, the old comics? - This is the book coming out next July. I've been working on it for two last two years. It's portraits of legends of pioneering legends of comic books. So, it's gonna be 75 full-color, large portraits of guys dating back to the late 30s into the 50s, like the original pioneers, you know. So, it's not gonna be the later guys, like Jim Sterling from Neil Adams' stuff. People keep saying, "Are you gonna be putting in "the Don Het as well as, or Bernie Wright's?" And they said, "No, those guys started later." So, I'm really concentrating on the earlier guys who built the industry, you know, for better or worse. Including publishers, editors, publishers like Max Gaines and Stanley and Martin Goodman, the original Marvel comic publishers by dad's boss, at magazine management. So, that's what I'm working on and taking my time with it. You know, it's like, I'm doing it between assignments, but you know, I'm putting a lot of time and effort into it. And there'll be biographies that will roll out right that will run with each portrait, as well. It's sort of a lot of the lines of the Jules Pfeiffer, back in the '70s, the history of comics. - This is really history. More of my take on things, but I particular take. A lot of these people, I really admired. Some I didn't. Some of them I knew, a lot of them I knew. Some of them I had as teachers, some of them I still know, like Al Jaffee and Mortropper. A lot of guys who started in comics, like Mortropper and Walt Kelly, who moved on to other things, but began in the world of comics, in that world of comics. So those are the guys, and some women, three women so far, and several African Americans as well. - I really, a couple. - Okay, it's just gotta be, we feel kind of bad. It's just the historical moment. There wouldn't be a lot of good fodder in those terms. Although when I was at the small press expo last, a couple of weeks ago, representing him, John Lewis was there. He's got a comic biography coming out, or it's out loud, a huge line of people there to see him, to the presentation, people with tears. And apparently there was a Martin Luther King comic from the late '50s, I guess, or '60s. - Oh, 'cause I saw him, there's a new graphic, Martin Luther King graphic, no, I saw a hard cover. I forget the artist, maybe Ho Chi Anderson. We did the art, but the one you just mentioned, John Lewis, right. - Nate Powell, Indy cartoonist from Top Shelf. It was fresh, it was kind of John Aiden, I think, who helped adaptive and Powell to the illustration, but he had this huge signing line to see these guys, I'm gonna suck some of it, Lewis. - This book I'm doing, it came about because I got real elder from Mad Magazine, Mad Comics. His family, his son-in-law approached me and said, would you do a portrait of Will after he died? - It's that I sent you the gift to my wife, Nancy, Will's door. We worked at the, perfect. We worked at the arrangements, I did the portraits, it worked out well, they were delighted in tears. I liked the result. And I said, I should do a 10 into this, a Harvey Kurtzmark, which I did, I posted it on my Facebook and it was printed in comic strips. Harvey, I knew well, from school of visual arts, where here's my teacher, three years in a row, we got along fine, we had our ups and downs, meaning sometimes he wasn't in the mood for the class and the hijinks, but overall, we enjoyed each other. He was a great guy to be around, not the greatest teacher in the world. - That's what I've heard from a couple of people that were there, like, he didn't know what I was wondering, just to be in his aura, he was like a guru. And I've mentioned it, he was like, just to be in his presence, this legendary guy, very low-key, soft-spoken, but, you know, wise in his way. And he picked up on what I was doing and some of the other students in the class, like Cass and Mark New York, he had an eye for, like, discovering or, you know, picking people up, but that worked. So, I did the Harvey portion, then I had two, and I said, well, this has potential, let me, like, pursue this and, you know, do a couple more, I was just thinking, EC guys, mad guys, like I did, I picked Al Jaffee, a few others, and then I just kept expanding it. And now I have, I think, a total of 55 completed. I did a promise, well, but that probably won't be included. I did a Harvey Peacock. 55, now, a lot of skewer ones, people, a lot of people have been showing them, too, saying, like, I never knew what this person looked like. I mean, like, the guy who did a Kirby. I can win it. There's no photos of the guy, then it only exists. There's one self-portrait he did, so I based my drawing on-- - I'm looking on that. - I basically, and I put Harvey in the drawing as well. - Okay. - Just to clarify things. - Yeah, what did you, and other guys, too, like people said, oh, I never know, like, I just did Bob Powell, you know, who was like an early comics artist. He came editor at Crack Magazine, Art Director at Crack Magazine. I drew him, kind of, she'll be looking guy. I'd fairly young, early 50s. Like, I just drew him on a couch, just looking at the reader, you know, by jumping, I'm mixing things up. I'm putting some things, I'm putting elements of the people's work in the drawing. Other ones are just like them, like, just sitting there, or being on the script. - Okay, what did you, what do you feel you learned in the process of this? What guys did you find out something about that you just-- - Not really finding out anything that I didn't know before. What I'm learning, or what I already knew of, I think, is that one of these guys just were average looking guys. They'd never pet, you know, you'd never recognize them on the street. They look like a accountant, but, you know, and meanwhile, they were creating superheroes, and he's like, you know, Jack Kirby, you know. So I'm gonna be like, look, you know, like Bob Kane, always with the smile, and Stan Lee, you know, with the hair transplants and the smile. Hopefully he's on, you know. He's up there in trouble, isn't he? Most of them are just non-to-script, like, I'll be looking guys, he, you wouldn't pay. Couldn't even see, but I'm choosing. Probably be on the cover. The book is tentatively titled, "Heroes of the Comic Books." You know, early pioneers, you know. Fantagraphics is doing it. Now, Jackie is gonna be doing it forward to it. He just agreed to do it, he could do it. And now is good, because he knew a lot of the guys. 'Cause he worked a timely back in the 40s. Under Martin Goodman and new Stan Lee work with him. And then later on, of course, like, hooked up with Kurtzman, for Humbug, and then, you know, all the main guys. I found, I was at a comics show in Asbury, New Jersey. Last summer, I was afraid about that. Asbury Park. One guy there, complete set of Humbug. I've never seen it in print before. I picked up the hard covers from Fantagraphics at the slip case thing, but it's a $50. I should own an issue of Humbug, you know. As is, he didn't exactly want to break up the set, but realized nobody's going to be paying for, not at that convention, 12 or something. - Honestly, I mean, I was there to see Evan Dorkin and wanted to about support, I think. - Hey, Al Jaffe, are you there at the last part? - Yeah, sorry, yeah, be Jay Lynch, I think. - Well, Jay Lynch, some good people. - But sadly, the biggest crowd was for Herb Trimpey, because he was the first guy to drink water in. - Well, also, there was another superhero costume deal, which is why I avoid the, generally, it was that sort of show. - I did the Jaffet's one last year. To be on the Madtown, without Jaffe, Peter Cooper, et cetera. I swore never again, I can't do it again, you know, with the parading batmans and Spidermans and all that. - It's a nice thing with small press expos, that it's, you know. - I know. - It's all the arc slubs, what's nice about the Brooklyn show and Mocha, you know, although, yeah, well, I'll be doing Mocha next year, or another reason, though. - Well, that was the, I'm just walking around this show. I'm like, okay, got to talk to Dorkin for a bit. So Bob and Priyota had a nice conversation. And then I'm just looking through the back issues to have to find something funny to buy from, like my pal and I, you have the whole '50s humor books who's heard of, whatever, okay, let me take a look. And then so, I'm, sorry, I, I grabbed this. And of course, the choreo, I had some story about the, the, the a choreo that I picked. There was a white background, lots of little hats everywhere. And apparently the guy who drew the hats, they were all- - Is it all right? Oh, is it a black mint cover? - Yeah, yeah, it's not right. It isn't that same sort of sketchy, which is kind of- - I don't know which is, but I have, you know, the complete, you know, yeah, they, they moved the hats on and they're all pasted down. So people would just come in and move hats slightly. - I heard about the weeks and Bob had- - I did, a panel with, with Jaffy and all of them brought that current celebrating current since then, with the Society of Ellicards. Arnold talked about that cover, about Harvey's like, you know, but then he still had recessions. That being one of them. Let me ask, you studied under courtrooms, I won't ask about eyes, new relationship stuff, 'cause I've seen that in a bunch of your interviews, but do you see, I was in the encouragement in a sort of two pamps of cartooning of that era. I've always had that vibe about like, Harvey and Toph, that, you know, Kirby was this sort of a blockish dynamism. Alex Toph is this whip-like, everything's about the other life. Is there any sense of that in your period? - I mean, they were friends, they were pretty close even. - Yeah. - Back in the 70s. - In the 70s. - So it wasn't like opposite ends in the spectrum. I mean, the eyes are, the encouragement admired Eisner, even though he did a brief parody of him once, you know, for, hey, look, but I never got that sense. No, it's like, you know, they were entirely different types of teachers, you know, and I got one with both of them, even though Eisner got mad at me later on, because I didn't contribute, I didn't want to talk about the class for a particular book. So he, like, you know, said some negative things about it. It's okay, but I never, it got that sense. I feel like we're in, I think bringing Jack Kirby and Harvey, that maybe would have, like, that was a far more to that, you know, opposite ends of what was going on in the background. - That's what I necessarily think of Eisner as a superhero artist, and, you know, like, kind of, of that era, and, you know, both Jewish guys from the Bronx, and, you know, what are you doing, and doing better work than most people? - Yeah. - But what do you think it counts with it, the sheer amount of Jews in comics? - You know, that applies to comedy, too, you know? You know, a lot of people have certain theories, I don't know if I buy into it, the smile behind the pain, the haunted smile, you know, people talk about Jewish comedy, it's all book about it, the haunted smile. I don't buy into it, I think they're just a bunch of hands, and I can be out there, and tell jokes, and be funny, and meet women that way. - It's just a bunch of hands. - Vaudevious, you know, you have vaudeville as a, you know, you're getting, man, coming from, you know, European stock, and it's still, you know, - That's what I'm like, I don't buy into the haunted smile, like, you know, they're living in the shadows, and they have to, like, find humor in, you know, in their pain, I never, I don't buy, it's not my, as far as the, you know, I guess it did. - I don't know why so many Jewish guys went into the world of the comic books, I guess because it just started in urban, in urban, in the Bronx, and then, like, you know, all the early publishers were Jewish, and it just like, you know, it just made sense, and it just became, I can't say for sure. I'm not a historian, I'm not even a comedy historian. I went into the Jewish comedian books, not knowing a lot about a lot of the people. - Yeah, where do they go? - I never, I never heard of Monetra Scolnick, who's in the book, and I just discovered him while I was drawing it. - Just because he's good too. - Just because he's good too. - I love the faces, mainly. A lot of them are not even fans of, I can't stand read by, I can't, I can't abide him. - But you can't, you just love to draw on it. - I just love his face, you know. - And Alan King, I used to watch him on Ed Sullivan, I said, "Oh, God, this guy with you." - Oh, no, let me tell you long stories. - In one of my old magazines, we had a press event at the Friars Club. I'm there with one of my ad salesmen. He says, "Oh my God, it's Alan King." Walking by, and I said to him, "Tom, "you may be the only person ever to have uttered those words "with any sense of excitement." I mean, it's really, you know-- - Alan King was a sweet guy, he was friends with my dad. I liked him as an actor, he's in some movies. He was trying to get an Italian kind of thing. - He was probably a really good kind of good. I was, when I was a kid, I used to watch him as I'd stop him. Turned him off. I wanted to, you know, Jerry Lewis. I wanted to do him a little bit. - Physical kind, I don't know, I never found him funny. God rest his soul. I have to throw that in. A worded old Jewish comedian, Stark. You know, when you've done four games then? Three Vimes and that's it, there'll be no more. But I've mentioned, I've talked about this before, with my friend, Monty Beauchamp, who does the blend, who did the blend, he does the layout. He almost had to deal with undergraduates to produce these art, square art books. And so he's bringing an artist to like, do whatever book you want. You know, the money is not there necessarily. So, you know, a labor of love. So that's how I looked at it. But I said, okay, I like Monty, I like his design work. So I said, all right, I'll do something. Between assignments, something, what do I like drawing the most? - I like drawing, I like drawing comedians and old Jews, so I combined that, and that's what I came up with, old Jewish comedian, so yeah. I did the first one over a course of a year. It came out, it did well. It was surprisingly like, it was a sleeper hit. It sold well, people picked up on it, younger people, and older people, and a lot of the Jewish comedians that are in it, and I don't know why it was. Sherry Lewis called and Freddie Roman and Mickey Freeman. All loved it, and then threw a Friars party for it. You know, they arranged for it. And that all worked out. We're guys who weren't in it, pissed off, and climbing for the second one. - No, wait, I didn't get that. - Okay. - Although Larry Storch, who took me and said, "Could you put me in the second of it?" And he sent me a photo, and I said, "Yes." I said, "The thing is, this is back in 2006." It just wasn't allowed on Google back then, if you typed it in your name, it was Google Images. Nothing would come up on, you know. I didn't even know if I was using Google Images back then, if it existed. So there wasn't much that I couldn't come up with anything on Larry Storch, although I wanted to include him. He is Jewish. A lot of people, the thing is, I have people that really, this one's Jewish, Larry Storch. What happened is Jewish, I didn't know that. Well, his mom was Jewish, so officially. But Larry actually said he wrote me a lovely handwritten letter and then sent me a photograph of himself. I said, "Yes, of course you're going to go anyway." If you're capping it at three volumes, you're pretty much running out of old Jewish comedians at the point. - Well, I was just a miniature man. - Just scraping the bottom of the barrel by the third volume, and then I had to, honestly, the third volume didn't sell as well. It was like kind of like, you know, repeating that, you know, I probably should have stopped the two lives. So it's trilogy now. But there's over 100 images and some of them in color for the covers. And now the society of illustrators is going to be posting, doing an old Jewish comedian show in March, with all my original artwork on display. It's a two-floor show, and also it'll include a femmer from my collection, like books, records, toys, the Milton Brawl car in the 1940s. Have you ever seen that? - No, no. - A ten toy, a Milton Brawl ten toy. Him and a car. I don't know how we're going to finish shawing in there. - Yeah, somehow. - Just at the stick shift. - Exactly. And everything fits. So that happens in March. And I'm hoping to have a panel also to coincide with it. I'll get a lot of the comedians. - I would not. - The ones who are still alive in this. To be on the panel. So hopefully Larry Storbs and Jerry Stiller and Freddie Roman and Eddie Lawrence. - We're afraid of returning to a rose by any audience. - Not a rose, but I hope they start yelling at each other and screaming at each other and throwing things and things like that. My dream is to get Jerry Lewis to come. He's become a friend up in if he's in New York. Also some of the younger guys, Gilbert Godfrey and Jeff, for us in Sarasota. So, you know, I'm slowly going to be turning, attempting to turn in the society and illustrate it to the forest. You know, the friars east. Yeah, I love the term, the Vermeer or the Borscht belt. I thought that was a-- - Yeah, that was Steve Powell's real stuff. - I like that. Of course, my wife had to go out and get me a book on Vermeer after he said that, 'cause you know, couldn't realize. - It's like, time out, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Just go for the frick. - Wasn't that an accident? - Yes, I should do that. But she bought me a great book. Now, I'm well versed in Vermeer. - Yeah, and there's only three dozen, so you don't have too much to act or work for me. - I got one. Were you fixated on drawing these guys in old age or, you know, was it just different ages? - I like drawing people older because they just, like, they're, you know, they're faces of America. - Faces of, like, they've lived their lives. It's all on their face. To me, there's nothing more worse than me. Nothing worse, I can't have worse things, but I don't like drawing younger people, attractive people, just to get assigned drawings of the friends. - I can't breathe, the friends hang weekly, and it was painful. I never watched the show. It's like, you know, really? Do I have to draw them again? Finally, I just stole the no friends' policy. It's enough, no more, I can't be. So, it was like, you know, I get to, like, I was being asked to draw. Jennifer Aniston, and I would finish that, and to reward myself, I would draw Shecky Green, you know. So, I gotta, like, I gotta get myself back into reality here. - Can you hunt down recordings to these guys at all? Do you have any interest in the old comedy, or are you pretty much-- - I do, I have extensive collection of books in recording. People send me stuff now. Some really, really good stuff. Some rare stuff, some stuff. It's like, eh, I'll listen for a few minutes and get bored. But, you know, you would imagine, I get a lot of stuff in the mail. Some, you know, one of the best was the roast of Lucy and Desi from 1958, priors in Los Angeles. What made the roast interesting, aside from Lucy and Desi, the gorse in Soon After the Roasted, Albert Brooks's dad, Harry Einstein, was on the dais. Parky carcass. He delivers his monologue, he delivers his monologue. He's very funny, he's very good, and he sits back at the dais, and he trots dead. Last but not least. Albert was 10 years old. I've talked to Albert about it. Very proud that his father actually finished his routine. Albert helped him that night, before he went over to Albert sat down with the material, helped his dad out. At the writing, he was 10. He finished his routine sat down and died, you know. It's like chaos erupted. It's like, but it's on record, it's on record. Not the heart attack, not when he's on the phone. Cut it off, on a heart link that our hosts. It's fascinating stuff, but. So, when I met Albert, he said, Drew, how come my dad is in your book? Well, he died too young, that makes sense. He was okay. Said I'd love to include him, but, you know, he just, it's, you know, old, you know, it's like kind of 65 and up. Keep going. Now, you know, with the third book, I was, I was including some of the kind of younger ones, like Richard Belzer and Robert Klein and the David, David Brenner, you know, who are also now getting up, Joan Rivers, getting up there a bit. You know, if I keep going, it's like, you know, we're getting any noise here. I could, they include, you know, I mean, Gilbert Gottfried's getting up there. Yeah, you know, just some, a few days ago, I'm from Alabama, which is one of the nice things about my wife, which is Paige and Mennonite, I'm marrying a neurotic Northeastern Jew, right? Was that she's always had a Gilbert Gottfried, you know, I don't want to say fetish because that sounds weird. Sexually, but it's always love, a good word stuff. So it was just one of those, oh, thank God, we can bond over, you know, years ago, I don't know the Trade Magazine, I was working, I was covering the Toy Fair, 25th and Broadway, West of the Park, takes place in this big tower. All the toy companies are there, showing off their stuff to the buyers. My first year, I'm 25 years old, going up an elevator, an elevator door opens, guy standing in front of me. I think, wow, one of these companies actually hired a Gilbert Gottfried impersonator for the show. - The real thing. - And of course, about four seconds later it occurs to me, no one could possibly make a living as a Gilbert Gottfried impersonator, this is actually the other. Nothing weird happened in the two floors that we covered together, but it was just that moment of, yeah, Gil, you're in New York, it's probably just going to be a celebrity. There's no answer. - It's the gnome, we both lived in the East Village back in the 80s, yeah. - So we come by, you know, at that time, I was like, oh, this time I was usually pretty busy, but it's not why I put my apartment unannounced. And he wanted to watch horror films, 'cause I had a VHS recorder, I don't think he did. And I had a lot of horror films, like the obscure ones, especially Lon Chaney Jr., who you're in the door. - That's a great opportunity. - Yeah, well, I'm Chaney Jr., I love them. So I would stop my work and I would, you know, like, okay, so I'd pop on the indestructible man, or, you know, trying to sign me to a little thing or whatever it was, and we'd sit there and watch, and in silence, to see, you know, in person, he's not talking, he's very shy. You know, you get him in front of a microphone, he becomes a different person. He's got a podcast now that he'll probably be a guest of, a little nothing but talk about Lon Chaney Jr., for the most part. Or, you know, Enrano, Tor Johnson, you know, that's kind of. - So where did your interest in all that stuff really arise? Like, I mean, to me, it's all being raised with Channel 9 and having all this, you know, New York, New Jersey stuff. - Yeah, Channel 9, you know, chill with theaters, open after theater, all that stuff. - Super sale, Chuck McCann. It's like, obsessed with TV from an early age. - I've tried to explain Uncle Floyd to my wife for a reason. Like, yeah, you weren't here, you're just, you know. - It was a little later, but, you know, my childhood. That was, I think, okay, the legal agents, that music stuff, he's still around, actually, he's still dead for us. Yeah. - Mostly sings Italian music now, like Italian weddings, Italian, you know, it's a career. - He was just in Scranton last weekend at an Italian festival. I keep track of this. - Of course. - I can sing kind of environment just so many other people, like, but I just was really fixated on TV. Like, I got my best education from TV and I from school. I didn't want to go to school. I wanted to just stay home in my room with my comic books in their magazine, the famous monsters of Finland, and watch TV, watch F Troop and all of them. Three Stooges and Jerry Lewis. I didn't want to go to school. I didn't want to go to camp. I didn't want to go to the play. I just wanted to stay in my room. For some reason, I had to go to school and despite that, I still got a good education. You know, it's fun. It was kind of the visually, like, the opening of chills here. You know, I would just, like, dream about that stuff. Like, Torjans from the vampire, coming at the camera, I would just say, resonated with me, the visuals, you know. But they're also the weird guys. - They've never looked at it that way. - I've never looked at it that way. It's like, I guess I'm kind of fixed in my life. I like the same things I like when I was a kid near the most part. - I just mean in terms of that's the, you know, you weren't going for movie stars. You're going for the, you know, the stream. You didn't realize they were zeelists, you know. - I guess that was appealing, yeah. - Yeah. - Those guys, like, nobody else was really paying attention to. - Yeah. - Including elevator men and people of nobody, like that's a true notice of people. Most people ignore. That's why we used to try to sum me up once. I guess it's true. - Makes sense. Somebody has to, you know. - Most of all the other stuff. - Brothers and I moved to Manhattan, the building we lived in, very interested in the park west. We were obsessed on the elevator men. It's like, you know, we knew all their names, we talked to them, we created fantasies about them. You know, what their lives were like, beyond the elevator men. It's like, nobody else paid attention. We did. - It's always my, and whenever you get these TV shows, like Bedwood, there was the Mr. Chan, the spokesman for the Chinese contingent in the little western pioneer town. And I thought, you know, some point you should do an episode that's just from his point of view, and all the Chinese people, basically have the white people speak in gibberish, and just, you know, have this guy dealing with a really intricate world that he has to do, and that all these people on the other have no clue on because they were, you know, movie stars and TV stars. Nobody ever follows it, which is why I don't, you know, run a network or have a TV show, you know. Oh yeah, I'm always, my wife turned me on to Buffy, the vampires later years ago, and they did one episode that was all from the sidekicks point of view, and he kept trying to get, you know, other characters involved in this world ending plot, and they just, they always had bigger things going on. You time it in or up, and you never mind, I'll come back later, and had to do everything to himself. And for that, to me, that's where the story is. Jimmy Olsen, you know, it's always the other guy, and it's not a feel, you know, I feel the same. There's a more interesting, what was happening in my work time, if you can pick up on, I'll draw somebody, but then there's this stuff in the background to me is sometimes more interesting. Something you wouldn't necessarily notice, but if you do notice, like, you know, I don't wanna obsess on that, but that is interesting to me. It's like, I think one of the ways that people appreciate my work, it's like the entire piece rather than just, okay, here's, here's the central image, or here's where I was drawing, but there's also some other thing. So there's some other information to absorb, you know. Most characters don't, you know, they just basically draw a face. I don't consider myself a character. Some people do, 'cause I accept it, but... Yeah, I wasn't sure how to describe you. I was thinking of an intro as a painter, cartoonist, so I guess, I'm fine with anything. Characters, cartoonists, cartoonist artists, illustrator is fine, numerous illustrator, drama artists, it's all, it's all fine. But it's like, you know, I kind of bounce around. I don't like my dad, but he's like, you know, he can't really, he's a novelist, short story writer, journalist, playwright, screenwriter, so... Kind of like, follow, follow, I mean, I don't do what he does, but... Yeah, but they're everything under writer. We kind of bounce as an artist. Not just one thing, yeah, so... You have any time for doing comics of this point, or is everything in time for me? I actually did, I have a piece coming out, an 8-page piece that spends several months on, about Robert Crumb coming out next year, and a book that Simon Schuster's just putting out, called "Masterful Marks." Again, edited by Monty Bozier. It's like, what it is, is 16 contemporary cartoonists did, illustrated the life stories of 16 famous cartoonists from the past, including Harvey Cardzman, Charles Schulz, Jack Kirby, Dr. Seuss, things like that. So, I did Robert Crumb, Monty asked, "Do you want to confirm?" I said, "Sure." And then I thought for a second, I said, "He's kind of done his own story. "What am I supposed to add? "I'm not going to go back and read, you know, "just read, draw, like, him, probably with your old story." So I said, "But yeah." So that's tricky, because he's, you know, he's like, basically exposed all his dirty laundry, and he's like, "Everything, his entire life "he's already drawn." The only way I can do it is it, from my perspective, like, Robert Crumb, and, like, my association with him, definitely, being a first name fan, and his excessive fan, discovering his work. And later on, going to SVA, and meeting Harvey Cardzman, and it's the first time I encountered Crumb, he walked into Cardzman's class on and on. I didn't approach him, it was like, to me, it was like, my dad knew a lot of actors, famous people, writers, and stuff. But when he met or introduced me to cartoonists, those were the guys that, you know, I couldn't even speak, I was like, it's so, so, so, so, so, and all that did you have. Well, it's like, you know, he was friends with Joel's wife, and I was like, you know, he was like, close friends with him, so he was around a lot. And he was like, friends with Maury Sendak, and that blew my mind when I met him. He went on a playboy, had a convention, and became Assembly One, and he broke up out of the photo of everybody there, all these famous writers that happened every day. And my dad was standing right next to Harvey Cardzman, and I looked at that and said, "Oh my God." And he was like, barely aware who he was, because yeah, right, he does that little angry kind of thing. He said, "Yeah, but, you know." The cartoonist had always blew me away. It's different priorities for most people, it's, you know. Right, with me, it was like, you know, those are the celebrities, those are the guys I used to, but anyway, like, with, with some of the crumb piece I did, eight pages, it's, that's what it is, it's like my, and then finally, like, doing work for Weirdo and Carzman with Trump, becoming, you know, it's friendly as I could become with him. - Basically, corresponding over the years, always so supportive of what I did. And then we've met several times, and, you know, had the interest was coming. It's all that, eight pages of that. It's called Robert Crumb and Me. - And well received by Monty? - Oh yeah. - You know, he, he got where it was going and, - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And just developed it, yeah. And so that book is coming out next year from Simon & Schuster. So that answers that question. Yeah, I'm still doing comments. If I'm inspired by film, if it's the right topic, you're like, "Oh, why is it like?" It's not that they're time consuming. It's just, I really have to be inspired. And it's like, oh yeah, that, that cliff. I have a few other ideas for things. I'm not going to mention what they are. - Well, what's your cartooning style at this point? Are you painting within panels? Are you, because you're drawing, you know, obviously you sort of have that stippling style back in the 80s and early 90s. You said that to that for the sake of insanity, and I'd say, but, you know, what's your, your cartooning approach? Do you have a, you know, you mean my technique? - Yeah, yeah. - It's basically, you know, doing tight pencil work and painting over that, I put up a few things on Facebook, like, more trucker. I tight pencil on the right, paint right on top of that. The pencil disappears and it's just the paint work. You know, it's family simple, but I don't work on the view. At all. My wife and I, my wife especially, you know, will scan the stuff and she'll touch up and things need to be touched up. Where I'll, I'll use the airbrush. Touching, touching up, and then we, you know, you know, our work doesn't have to leave the house anymore. - Yeah, not the old days. - I don't have to worry about that. - Yeah, it's like everything is scanned and set out. - Unless I sell originally. - That's the one that killed me when I was interviewing Ben Catcher and he said, he does 100% on the computer. He doesn't do anything by hand. So it doesn't do anything on paper. It was sort of stunned. Some of the cartoonists who were present said, "Oh yeah, you can see when he makes a change "because the line is a little bit, you know, "less, shaky, or whatever." But then Ben also said that he just has filed cabinets to the originals 'cause he doesn't think anybody would be interested in them and why would anybody want my original art. - Actually, I think a lot of people have seen what your book looks like in the process, Ben. - You would think, you know, Ben has been. - Yeah. - I saw my original art, you know, it's important for me to tell a lot of people to work on the computer and they say, "Why do you still do that?" I still know I have a particular patron. I saw my original art, if I worked on the computer, that all I had to say. - And one of your big patrons is Howard Stern. - He's a fan. - I mean, he's a fan. - But he's a part of the art. - Oh, really? - He's been a fan. He's a long time admirer. We, you know, mutual art relations are signed. - Yeah, how did that relationship start with you guys? - You know my work, but voice art is Billy West was a friend of mine back in the early 90s before you moved to Hollywood. Work on what friends didn't be, so, yeah. So I gave Billy, Billy was on the Howard Stern show at the time doing great, great stuff. So I gave Billy a copy of the great Larry Fine impression that he would be a Larry Fine Woodstock. - Yeah, I'm ruining you. (laughing) - Well, you heard that the first time on the radio with the Alison Steele voice over, my brother and I were just the night bird. - It was in tears. We were just, oh, it was beautifully dark. - Yeah, that is good. - I wouldn't, I wouldn't believe it was Shims. - I don't know. I'm not gonna go there. - Yeah. - So Billy was a mutual friend. He thought like, call on leaving messages, his Larry Fine, or Shims, and stuff. It's obsessive. Computer pals. So, the art book came out and works in all. From Penguin, second book, but Art Spill, I'm an art director and friends was in the leg. Josh wrote on a material in there. So I gave Billy a copy that could pass on to Howard, you know, not thinking anything about it. Howard got it the next day. It was actually reading panels on the air. He loved it so much. Contacted me immediately. He said, look, I want you to draw me. I'm doing a TV show. I want you to draw me. His concept was to have Henny, have him die for him, Henny, and a young person. And anyone has laughed at him, adult die for him. I'll pay sure. He said, not only that, I'm gonna send cameras up to your house to film you drawing 'cause it was his TV show. - Yeah. - He had to be visual. I said, okay. So they sent, actually sent a camera, a camera crew up to my house to my studio in Pennsylvania where we had just moved. Set up the camera above my desk. It was like, you know, a pain in the ass process. And, you know, recording my hand from the morning to like late afternoon, drawing this Henny young man, Howard started diapering Henny young. I don't even know if it is. You know, I wasn't even that interested. 'Cause it was so like put out by like, it's crooked and it's a hassle. Like, you know, I finally got, I got bored with the process. They were sitting there with my, my hand had to be in a certain spot. I didn't like, you know, I appreciated it, but finally I lost interest. I did it. I don't even know if they ran it. I don't even have the art anymore. I think I extended the camera. I gave it to them. I say, you're gonna take it. - I was trying to find those WOR episodes on YouTube or something, see if they exist. I assume some, everything's on the internet somewhere. That's, that's, you know, I've been watching those when I was a kid, but a kid, 13, 14 years old, but I'm trying to stay up and fan, see the demonic hellish story on television. - Yeah. - I watched the show. I enjoyed it, but, you know, I don't know. It's quite on, but anyway, Howard and I have kept in touch over here. We email now back and forth privately. Like, I send them to stuff. They heat, you know, stuff I post on Facebook that I think I like. I mean, they're so, we keep it private, but you know. But he's been always been supportive and, you know, it talks about me on the air, you know, from time to time. - This is another one that when he was coming up, when he first hit in New York, and they, like it's 82, 83, 83 when he started, it was also the, you know, the Z list celebrities. It was The Creek Gable and all these other, you know, like not the people you would see on now Letterman, Leno, et cetera. You know, he also had that, that sort of fixation for the oddball celebrity and the weirdos from, you know, the '50s and things. I'm assuming the same childhood of television that you had, you know. - Yeah, yeah. - And Sammy Patrolo on. Did you see that one? - No, no, that's a good one. - Sammy came on in a suit and a false teeth. Toes, lousy jokes, you know. I think that's on YouTube. - Yeah, I'm sure how to dig it out. - He was in anti-patrolo at the Clarify, of course, just the guy who was the Jerry Lewis Edmonton back in the early '50s. So good that Jerry Lewis actually hired him. Signed them on, you know, gave him a contract. He wanted to, you know, use them on his TV show, use them once, not again. Sammy broke off and made Bella Ghosty and made some book Cinderella with his partner. His concocted partner, Duke Mitchell, as the Dean Martin imitated. - Yeah. - And the rest is just, Sammy died a couple years ago. There's a book being written about Sammy Wright. - Yeah. - Are you giving any sort of input of the interview? - I'm gonna be doing a cover, a cover art. The book is written by a journalist named Dave Abramson. It's also known as David Spaz on WFMU. Free plug. - It's, you know, it's all about networking. - That's why I haven't gotten it. - I'm looking forward to it. - The title is, "Your Time Is Now." Which is actual quote that one of Sammy's friends once said to him, "Sammy, your time is now." - It's the letter that they know. Or that was already passed at that moment. - Exactly. - His time was brief. It was like he was 17 when he was in Bella Ghosty and makes a book with a girl. By the time he was seven and a half, I think his career was more or less out. He was in a Daris-Wishman film, Nodie film. It's at it, not much else. - And what took you out of the city? You've been out in Pennsylvania in the country for 20 plus years now. I always envisioned you as a New York fixture, I guess, just because it's such a matter. - A couple of reasons we wanted to, my wife and I wanted to get more bang for our block. We were kind of throwing it in a small apartment. I didn't look for a larger apartment. We were just both kind of like burning out in the city. But we just started looking upstate for the house. But you didn't think to go to the Catskills? That would have made so much more sense. Conceptually. - Make it that far up. We looked up and solved in County and that area. That way, that close to it. But it wouldn't make sense, but it was pretty depressing up there then. - Yeah, a lot of crime. But my wife is from Philadelphia. So she knew where we lived. And I fell in a water gap area. Pretty well from going to the kid, vacationing camping. I had never been to Pennsylvania anymore. I'd never been to that area for it. So that's how we wound up though. Just like I said, more bang for your block. You get to get beautiful homes out up there. - I had a advertiser who visited in Spokane, Washington once. The guy was from Philadelphia. The executive was driving me around and when I was asking. So you know, you feel kind of isolated out here. It's Eastern Washington. You're not even a part of the Seattle scene. Gil, I have a six bedroom house overlooking the valley here that cost me $250,000. Yeah, I would have gotten this tiny minuscule stamp in suburban Pennsylvania with this. - I think it was me, it doesn't matter where I lived. Just you know, setting the work, being, you know, when the first move was up there, everything went out, found the X or had a delivery guy. - Really? - But New York to me was, this is, you know, I love New York and I love coming in and visiting friends. My dad lives here, stayed there. But it was, it's too much of a distraction and I'm like, you know, there's nothing I enjoy doing more than actually working, doing my work and improving as an artist. And there's just so many distractions here. I can't, when I come to visit, I can't wait to get home. Like, I'm gonna be drawing like Bloomberg. I can't wait to cover the New York Observer. It's already pencil. I can't wait to get back to it. It's like, you know, on my mind. - Shut up, shut up. - Thank you. - Thank you, thank you. - What did you say? - You know, so like, I'm pretty obsessive about my work. But I'm not like, over the obsesses work. A lot of artists work all night to, you know, all nighters work, like, I stop working at like, four, four, four, four. And that's it. I don't like work at night, you know, work. - Do you have work routines? - Very disciplined, you know, from one to one. - Basically, I start, like, in the morning, after, I take a mile long walk. - A little like cream. - Take a mile long walk and then, you know, work from more, you know, take a break in a midday, but like, work like six, seven hours a day, you know. Sometimes I take days off, you know. There's nothing I enjoy more than just being, you know, relax with my wife and my beagles and, you know. I also, you know, like, I'm pretty obsessive when I have a job. It's like, I'm very focused on it. Even if it's not a deadline. - Yeah, it has the market changed in terms of, I mean, your, essentially, illustration, I guess. - Yeah. - Illustration market, it's like, it's kind of in flux right now, you know. As far as, like, magazines using illustration, a lot of them still do. Nothing has changed New Yorker and stuff like that. Come back and forth, where, like, it seems like a year or two ago, like, illustration is dead, nobody's. Right now, it's like all of a sudden I, you know, be a Facebook, I see, like, as far as running illustration, TV guide running illustration in the same week, like, so it kind of goes back and forth. I don't pay much attention to it, as much as I used to. Because I do my own work, my own, you know, private work, mainly, you know. So I'm not, I'm not waiting for the phone to ring, like, I used to, for our directors to call. - Yeah, have a regular thing with New York Observer, or is it a? - I used to, like, once a month. But now it's like, you know, if, if it's right for me, no contact me, and it has to be something right, you know. I won't try to, like, I have a contact. It's not like, you like that sound? - Yeah. - It's not gonna be good. It's not like, we have a cover where you do it. It's like, okay, what is the cover gonna be? You know, who's the subject? - Yeah. - I'm difficult. I can't be, I admit it. It's like, you know, it's Bloomberg. It's like, well, they have a particular concept in mind. I said, I don't wanna draw that. I'd like to draw it, Bloomberg. Let me do it this way. In short, and the editor say, yeah, that's the way to go. - Sure enough. - So that's what we did. But I'll say, like, no, I don't wanna do this. You know. - And how long do I take you to get to that, that, essentially, that position where you can kind of - Say, as I'm getting older, it's like, you know, I just, I'm very, I really wanna draw what's important to me, and like, you know, things like these comic book legends. It's like, what's important to me, and I just, I wanna take jobs just for the sake of taking jobs anymore. Leasing an art director, you know, it's just a process. - And you've saved enough over the years that this is actually viable as a, you know, I can't complain about that. - Thank you. - It's just that I have the, one of the recurring themes of the guests I have is the curse of the mid-list author, like guys who were, was sell 10 to 15,000 novels, and basically teaching and doing journalism, everything, pretty much until the day they die. But I wasn't sure on the, the art side of things, you know, what your market is like and how well your, you know, your position, given that your style is so distinct, it's not like someone could just plug in a, you know, we want that Drew Friedman feeling, and, you know. - There are guys, there are people who try to do some of their work online, and I'm aware of it. Some of them I like, some of the artists and stuff, but. I don't really pay much attention to it, like, you know, I have my, I have a particular artist who's work I love, but I don't really pay attention to the market anymore, and, you know, I'm just kind of, I'm in a fortunate position where I can, you know, draw what I want, and there are enough people who like it and respond to it where, you know, and again, I sell my artwork, so if you just don't have to, you know, think about, you know, having my work appear here and there, and I get to a point where, like, people know what I do, and, you know, hopefully look forward to what my next thing will be, and, you know, it's a process. It's gotta be something, actually building up a fan base like that without having that fan base, you know, sort of devoted to art itself as opposed to a character, or, you know, some recurring story or something. It's, you know, organically happening, which is open to years, like, in time. Oh yeah, he's the guy who draws poor Johnson, he's the guy who draws liver spots, so yeah, that's it. And then, you know, finally, maybe even they learn my name. - Well, that was my old line back in college in, like, the early '90s reading Spy. That was, I used to refer to this Wall Street Journal head cut as putting somebody through the Drew Friedmanizer, and only one Calamite ever got that reference, but he's held on to it for 25 years. He still, you know, makes it, he'll see a Wall Street Journal and still have that laugh over, you know, "Ah, that's kind of a joke about Drew." - I do have a thing, I think. Losing the stipple, you know, I wish I could, came to a good time consuming, I got bored with it. It wasn't affecting my eyes, like, you know, just facing that out and then becoming, you know, doing something else. I don't want to be known for the guy who's the stipple. I don't even like stipple, it doesn't appeal to me. - You just. - It doesn't appeal to me. I was, you know, the style never appealed to me. It's just something I fell into. It seemed comfortable, it made sense. For the kind of comics I was doing with Josh back then, where I wanted to give it that real quick, Ouija kind of what. So that, but, you know, it finally was like, you know, I'm kind of like, it's just not necessary. A couple of old timers said, like, Drew, you can really lose it. Nick Meglin, editor, man, like so. He was one of the first guys. He really don't need that anymore. Your drawing quality is improved. You don't have to, that was kind of hiding behind it 'cause I was insecure about my own drawing and building is when I was younger. So I kind of like came behind it, like, came up with this technique that people were like, whoa, look at that stuff. - Yeah, I'm noticing the. - Kind of got away with it. But Robert Crum actually was the first to kind of warn me, like, you know, think about the future a little bit. Think about your eyesight. - Certainly. So I wondered 'cause when I was a superhero kid, when I was young there was the anchor on Swamp Thing because I know these things, John Todelman had that sort of really fine, you know, stipple look over Steve Bissett's pencils and I remember he ended up developing some sort of bizarre stigmatism and wiped out his eyesight. But I don't know if that was a congenital thing that, you know, or, you know, all that time of, you know, drawing right out. - You know, I didn't think twice about it. Even when Crum said it, I kind of like waved it off. - Yeah. - 'Cause he's talking about it. But a little bit by a little, like, you know, I wear reading glasses now when I work. - Do you guys back anything else for that? - I'm good. - We're good. - Thanks. - So, like, I didn't think, but, you know, a little bit left in 20 years is doing it. It was like, yeah, not 20 years. I mean, maybe 20 years. I think I did that. Not 15 years. - So, say, into the 90s. - Yeah. - In the midnight. I remember the last drawing I did that had it. It was a little drawing of Antonio Banderas for premier magazine. That was the last stipple. The last dot, I dashed. - Do you follow contemporary artists and cartoonists, like, younger guys at all, next generation of people who are dreaming about it? - Well, like, Christopher, is he considered younger now? - Unfortunately, yes. You're old. - That's right, he's a little younger than me. - I'm 55, which I guess is, like, the new one, 75. - Yeah, he's got that much younger. He's, I'm 42. I think he's a little bit older than me. He's a bright 45, 46, so, yeah, for nobody. - Can you just say, do I? - You know, it's a weird thing for me, 'cause, for me, like, the comics era kind of, like, the artists I loved. I haven't really developed many new ones, so it's the Hernanda's Brothers, so-- - Kind of the same thing, right? - Thank you, that's mine. I think of, um, Dan Close and Chris Ware, and, you know, I don't really follow it, so I can't really say, like, oh, my God, I just discovered something, you know, I see stuff that I respond to, like, you know, it's terrific, but, I am, I guess, stuck in the past, in a way, you know, it's just, you know, my latest obsession with these guys who drew it in the 30s, 40s, and 50s, right? So, it doesn't give me that much time to, like, keep up with what's happening now. Maybe I'm not that interested, you know? - I'm starting to find that I am a narcissist in my life. Like, everybody in my family. - But you have to narrow your time. I mean, there's only so many, you know, artists you can follow, so it's worth it. - It comes to my, if you came to my studio and see, it's, like, you know, there's just so much, oh, neat, but, you know, it's just so much, like, from the past, I have no, I have no room for the future. - Let me ask the, and I was talking about this with Seth, who's a cartoonist who was very old-timey, as Nick puts it. - Yeah, he even dresses like that. - Oh, yeah, yeah. He joked about, when we were at Small Press Expo, how he can't just walk up and down the aisles, 'cause everybody knows it's Seth, and they want him to look at their stuff. So, I joked that we were gonna get him, like, a T-shirt and gym shorts, so that he could, you know, pretend to just be some schlug walking around. - That'd be interesting. - Yeah, he dresses as the part of Seth. - That's the thing, he knows, like, I brought this on myself, there's nothing I can do. But, that idea of what we're talking about, he's a guy who collects lots and lots of art and, you know, little clippings and things. And he's just, the Google image era, you can find anything. You know, it's a different moral matters in terms of, you know, there's almost nothing to go hunt down. So, it's- - You're right, I'm like, finding that out, because, like I've mentioned, with this Jewish comedian show at the Society, they're gonna be the display cases of the ephemera. I have a lot of stuff, but I want, you know, I want to show as much as I can. Like, I want a sampling of, like, something from Milton Burl, something from Joey Lewis, something from Joey Ross, something from any young man. You know, I want to say it, but not just books, but records and comic books, toys, and butt buttons, brochures, so, like, every day now, I'm on Google, like, finding, like, trying to find the most obscure stuff that would look great, you know, in this display. But, yeah, it's just- - I mean, it's so easy, though, and also, you can become, like, I'm not the first to figure this out, but you become obsessive with it, like, you know, it's hard to stop. - Well, you fell down the rabbit hole, and not even in something you were looking at, - Yeah, the day, I watched too many Benny Bell things. I bought a Benny Bell advertisement, a Benny Bell record from Australia, which I had paid $19 for shipping. That's over the world, okay. - But that sets the world of easy access. It's tough, 'cause when you come from that collector's world, or that world of, you know, that we're in nostalgia, I guess, so much wasn't just the object itself, but the hunt for the object, you know, the things we- - I know, for me, that was the Iron Man's game, but hunting, like, even walking around the city there, or slapping around, you know, it's like, I'm 55, it's like, I'm pretty good shape, but still, it's like, yeah, I can't believe I used to spend all day, all weekend in the city back in the day, like, you know, when they were still great stores, great food stores, and comic stores, and toy stores, you know, it's just, I would never be tired, you know. And comic inventions and stuff, I just don't have the energy, or the interest anymore, so, like, you can just stick to your computer and order, like, you know, a Joey Ross brochure from the Coca-Cola Cabana from 1957, it just bought the other day for $9, like, I felt so good, it already arrived, beautiful. Joey Lewis, sorry, Joey Lewis. - Good terms, Joe Franklin? - I think so, you know, you never know, you could turn around and sue me again, you know, I could accept it. - With inflation, I mean, last time we looked for about 35 million or 40 million, it was trying. - Just to wealth the clarify for people who might not know. - He sued me for $40 million of our comic strip, the incredible, freaking Joe Franklin. - The most fabulous comic comic I've ever thought. - Incredible, striking Joe Franklin. - 40 million was a reasonable sum, I thought I had about $10 in the bank at the time, yeah. But, cut to 25 years later, now we're friends, I go up to visit his office, we love him. We love my old Jewish comedian books, yeah. I don't think he remembers, he actually sued me. Or, if he does remember, he doesn't bring it up, I don't bring it. - He's probably got a lot of those, too, to keep track of it. - He sued me for 40, he sued not before, he's for 35 million, so I beat, I beat the white for $5 million. - You feel more important, that that's something. - Oh, he cut his suit to Floyd down to 35, you know. I didn't feel himself, actually I was like, you know, at the time it was amusing, 40 million dollars, he sued me, what he did was he sued me and the National Lampoon, who owned heavy metal magazine where the piece appeared, incredible shrinkage art model. So, Lampoon took on all the costs, which was good, 'cause I had no money, they had $10 in the bank again, my kind of was blasé about a joke about it, but now a little rattle, you know, I didn't enjoy being sued that much, I didn't want, you know, that little, some nice publicity I suppose, and welcome one at times in the post, but I didn't want it to happen again, thank you. - So, I've been more careful now, it's like, you know, I think about things, I don't look like when I was younger, it's like, I don't care what I draw, I don't care what I put into it, as long as it's funny. But, you know, I think that maybe I've mellowed it, or, you know, now these guys, you know, Joe Franklin loves, like, the old Jewish comedians, so they come around, I guess, to wear their way of thinking. - There's also, I assume, they were too old for this crap, you know, we're kind of, so, yeah, it's like, you know, it's fun when I was younger, but now it's like, you know, it's people, it's, I just don't want to be sued. I haven't been sued since, but I love the guy, you know, I visited his office on West 43rd Street, I bring people off the tours, it's like the Colley Brothers, it's like piles and piles of, you know, ephemera of books, and never throws anything out, there's all this fat, fat guy falling down, sliding down, it's like, Mrs. Thavisham's a room in their great expectations, same thing, it's like he sits there amongst all this stuff, it's insane, and he feels he's gonna get crushed by it all, is that, I'm worried about him, if there's an earthquake in New York, he's gonna find them in there buried by, you know, all this stuff, which will be, you know, fitting, I guess, fitting, it would make perfect sense, you know. I don't have to worry about that, yeah. - Do you have other sort of New York icons? - Yeah. - They're still around, the most of them are faded, you know, it's like, a great thing about the Friars parties that the old Jewish comedian books was, a lot of the guys came out of the woodwork, like any lords, the old philosopher, in his 90s, but still as funny as have, it's hard to hear, you know, you had to, you know, you had to mic, and still it was hard to hear, it's still funny as, he updated it as material, he threw in some P-Diddy references. (laughing) Pretty good, and Abagod has struck it, you know, it's like, where else are you gonna see these guys? - His daughter used to live in my town in New Jersey, I saw him in a supermarket when I was a kid, and we thought he was dead then, you know, and he's still going, it's incredible, it's 35 years ago. - Okay, again, early 90s, which doesn't sound that old to me anymore, but, you know, he, the last Friars party was Abagod, an Irish torch, and any lords and who was the other one? The guy who was on the cover of the last book, the comedian, a younger Jewish comedian, and now I forget his name. That's terrible, I mean, an old Jewish man, too. - I know, I know, I know, I know. (chattering) - Stewie Stone, sorry. Abagod has, brother Bill, is Archie Kermit's artist. Hold on, one of the original Archie Kermit's artist was Abagod's brother. He's up, Bill's a good one, and it wasn't a Hollywood name. Okay, I thought maybe he changed it to become more marketable. - It's back in the 40s. - Yeah. - Yeah, they would have gone up. - Are they looking at that table? - I only got that one to go, but we'll see if they walk in and look over a little more positive if it's our time, actually. - The guy runs a place, I kind of cleared things with him. - Yeah. - He goes, I said, what are you doing? What kind of interview? - Podcast. So, Coopee's in a pod? - Which explains the reference. - Coopee's in a pod? - Coopee's in a pod? - Yeah, that's it, that's it. - Okay, you found it there. Everybody's a comedian. - Look at world Jewish people, it's fun, we're supposed to. - I think I say, they're all hands. That's why, you know, it's like, everybody thinks they're funny. Most aren't, you know. But like I said, most of the comedians I've drawn, I'm not fans of theirs, necessarily. I just love their faces, you know. And I love the fact that as old as they get, they never give up, they still want to be in the game. They still want to be in your face, they still want to perform. They still think they're funny. A lot of them are angry. I love the angry stuff too. Tried to capture that with no bro. The cover of the first? - Yeah. - Yeah. - The point thing is, Fingo, like, there's some of the big, used to watch him on Joe Franklin. Joe would interrupt them and nothing bro would like, wanted to kill them. - Just like that, you saw him a bitch? Don't you ever interrupt me, you know, like that. - It's great when I listen to Mark Marin's podcast, the interviews comedians all up and down the age spectrum. But when he would get the older guys, it was always some slight and some, you know, opportunity they missed in 1954 that, you know, they would have changed the world. That's my pack hook, it was so great. Oh my gosh. - Oh my gosh. - That first week on Howard's turn, the pack hook, it was when the mother calls her and the son, what did I ever do for you? What did I, you know, just this blow up? - Yeah, it's like, I still watch him on Mike Douglas and Tom Schneider back in the 70s. - Oh god, yeah. - And he would go on about Lola Faron. She's not a professional. She's got no respect for our business. It would go on about Lola Faron, you know, whoever. You know, like, who he liked and who he didn't like. Frank Sinatra was a gentleman. He's a gentleman. Wonderful man. It's like a nothing bad to say about Frank. So no idea for old Italian comedians. No way. - It has been pitched. - You know, somebody was pitching me that, came up with a list of them, you know, Chico Marx, haha, Luca Stall, half Italian, Jackie Gleason, half Italian. Wow, Lou Monte. I said, look, I'm going to stick with the Jews. What can I tell you? Well, so I don't want to be like, okay, old Italian comedians, now old black comedians, now old pistol failure comedians. It should be a pamphlet. Is that? It's like, I don't want to be the guy, you know, I don't want to be the guy who's just, oh, he's the guy who drew the old Jewish comedians. I'm going to be, you know, my obituary is probably going to lead off. Drew Freeman died, the artist who drew the letter spots. I'm okay with that. Drew Freeman, I want to thank you so much for your time. We'll hope the recording comes out. Otherwise, you know, I'll be visiting and we'll have the beagles in the background. You're welcome. You're welcome, Gil. Thanks so much. All right, let me see. (upbeat music) And that was the Virtual Memories Show Conversation with Drew Friedman. Sorry about all the intas in the background. If you guys really clamor for a follow-up, I'm sure Drew would be amenable to my making a visit out to the Poconos. I'd like to thank the Second Avenue Deli for the fantastic brisket and for letting a couple of Jews set up a recording studio in the corner of the shop. It's on 33rd Street and 3rd Avenue in New York City, having left Second Avenue a couple of years ago. Now, if you'd like to learn more about Drew and his work, visit DrewFriedman.blogspot.com. Drew Friedman is D-R-E-W-F-R-I-E-D-M-A-N. And you can buy some of his work at his fine art print site, which is DrewFriedman.net. You can find his collections in bookstores, comic shops, and Amazon. And Heroes of the Comic Books, 75 portraits of the pioneering legends of comics should be coming out in June 2014, according to his publisher, which is once again, Fantagraphics. I'll let you know when there's a date for the old Jewish Comedians Gallery show that the Society of Illustrators in New York, because that really is something that you should see between the artwork and the ephemera that he was talking about. And that's it for this week's virtual memories show. Next week's guest is Peter Bag, author of the new comic biography, Woman Rebel, the Margaret Sanger story. Until then, I'm Gil Roth and you are awesome. Keep it that way. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]