MappedCon presented by Blueprint Test Prep 2024 is this Friday, October 26, 925 Eastern. I'm starting the day in my track, the pre-med track, planting the seed of your personal statement. We have three tracks going all day long and a couple hours of amazing exhibitors where you can learn more about their programs. Again, MappedCon presented by Blueprint Test Prep, October 26, register for free. It's a virtual event and all the sessions will be up after. So even if you can't make it live, go register and get access to the sessions. Go to MappedCon.com right now, register. That's M-A-P-P-D-C-O-N dot com. The Medical School HQ Podcast, session number 68. What our community loves is people who go out and make the world a better place. And I use the phrase "branching out" and I love it when individuals branch out and go outside the comfort zone. Hey, this is Z-Dog MD, rapper, physician, legendary turntable health revolutionary and part-time gardener and you're listening to the Medical School HQ Podcast hosted by the irredeemably awesome Ryan Gray. Welcome back. I am your host, Dr. Ryan Gray, and I believe that competition amongst your pre-med and medical student peers is detrimental to becoming a great physician. In this podcast, we show you how collaboration, hard work, and honesty are critical to becoming a superior physician in today's healthcare environment. Hey, folks, before we get into it with our guests today, I want to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by freeemcatgift.com. At freeemcatgift.com, you can download a brand new 30-plus page report on the most important pieces of MCAT information that you need to know. Take your knowledge of the MCAT to the next level by going to freeemcatgift.com and downloading the free report today. All right, in today's podcast, my guest is Dr. Benjamin Chan, Assistant Dean of Admissions at the University of Utah, an attending physician at the University of Utah Neuropsychiatric Institute. Dr. Chan also hosts his own podcast titled Talking Admissions and Med Student Life, which you can find on iTunes. During this podcast, you will hear Dr. Chan share his thoughts on the changing landscape and trends of the medical school admissions process. We'll talk about non-traditional students and why requirements aren't standardized between all medical schools. We'll talk about all those topics and many, many more. Dr. Chan, thank you for taking some time to talk to us today. Can you share your story of how you chose to pursue medicine? Sure, well, yeah, it's a good story. So, um, growing up, I, uh, you know, I just loved arguing with my parents. I took debate classes in high school. I was really, uh, had a really good experience on the debate team. And so, I just naturally thought I was going to be a lawyer. So, for the longest time, um, I was going to, I thought I was going to be a lawyer. And then, um, when I went to college, I, uh, I took a bunch of political science classes, uh, like them, but did not love them. Um, and then I went on a two-year Mormon mission and I really enjoyed helping people. And I just kind of had this, uh, epiphanist moment that, you know what, I want to help people. So after I got back off my mission, I switched from pre-law to pre-med. Kind of took all the necessary classes, got really involved and, you know, all the different activities that, that pre-med, uh, engage in, you know, hospital translation. I was a resident assistant for my dorm. I was a tour guide. I did a bunch of, uh, environmental, you know, issues, to tutoring. I went to college, I would stand for California, so there's lots of opportunity to do these things. And then I started applying to medical school. And, uh, during the entire time I was in California, I maintained my Utah residency, which is incredibly important, uh, uh, for those out there. Um, you know, um, you know, medical schools, we do not discriminate on the basis of race, gender, ethnicity, religion, politics, socioeconomic status, disability status, but we do discrimination based on state residency status. So, um, I got into the University of Utah School of Medicine, so actually, uh, um, uh, this was, you know, this was my home. I grew up in Salt Lake City, so it was natural to just come back here. So I went to med school back here, had a great time, and I just thought, you know, whatever the sense I decided to switch to medicine, I was going to be a pediatrician. Kind of the same thing with, like, being a lawyer. I just like, "Oh, I'm going to be a pediatrician. I'm going to be a pediatrician." So, uh, during the first years of med school, I was very gung-ho about pediatrics, and then during third year, when you, uh, hit the, uh, you know, third year rotations on inpatient wards, I, uh, I had my pediatric rotation, and I didn't love it. It was, it was rough. A lot of pediatrics is little babies, and I like babies. Don't get me wrong, but, uh, I, uh, I just found that they couldn't tell you what was wrong. You hold a stethoscope to their chest, they cry, you know, and it was just not, I just thought it would be more young kids and teenagers. And there was a handful of young kids and teenagers that kind of drifted through, uh, the pediatric service. So, uh, one of my mentors, he, at the time, he said, "Well, it's really like interacting with young kids and teenagers. You should look at child psychiatry." And I had never even thought about that before. So, again, it was kind of the septiveness moment. I did a rotation in child's psych, and I just really loved it. Um, it was everything that I liked about peeves, um, you know, talking to teens, talking to young kids, playing with them, getting to know them real well, helping them in a, in a, in a different way, admittedly from pediatrics. So, I switched, and I became, I, I, uh, I decided to become a child psychiatrist. So, I entered the match. You have to become a child psychiatrist. You have to do, uh, adult residency. So, I matched at George Washington University in downtown Washington, D.C. I did my adult training, and then a child psychiatry fellowship is two years. And so, at the end of my adult training, I matched at University of Maryland in Baltimore. So, I kind of stayed in the East Coast, um, and, you know, learned to love, you know, like working with kids, and I, I loved the D.C. area, uh, but because of family reasons after I graduated, I moved back here to Salt Lake City. So, it's just kind of what you're looking for, Ryan, by, by kind of veering off script. Yeah, now that's, that's great. And, and I, I, I do want to bring up one question. You mentioned, you started off as, as this Polly Sai, going to be a lawyer, and you had this epiphany that you wanted to help people. Now, I always make the argument that just because you want to help people doesn't mean you should go to medical school. Where, where was that extra step of helping people plus the medicine aspect? Where did that come into play? I think it was, well, on my mission, we did a lot of, uh, volunteer work with different, uh, organizations, uh, homeless shelters. I served my mission in France. So, it was your powerful front-same law. Um, so homeless shelters, nursing homes, some, uh, like the French equivalent of orphanages, things like that. And I just loved like that hands-on helping. Um, and I can totally understand what you're saying is just because you want to help people does not necessarily mean medicines or I path for you because you can move into nursing or pharmacy school or, or physical therapy. There's all these different, you can help people as a lawyer. Yes. Well, that's true. I just found it was a much more direct route of helping people. I, I, uh, I don't know. I just, yeah, I just felt that, well, so after my mission, I kind of took up on myself to shadow different doctors and also lawyers. And I, you know, I, I know that's like, it's been 10, 15 years, but there's a lot of paperwork involved with being a lawyer. And I'm sure it's like the paperwork with all the changes in healthcare. I've also, you know, there's a lot of people who are in medicine, but I just got a sense when I shadowed the physicians, they were happier. They really enjoyed that. They had that more of that patient interaction. Whereas with attorneys, it was a little bit more, I mean, the system is set up to be a little bit more adversarial. Um, and like with courts and things like that, I don't know, it just didn't really, I don't know, just, it didn't resonate with me. So the, the, the ureca, aha moment is like, I just liked helping people more directly gain my hands dirty and just helping them in that way. Does that help answer your question? Yeah. And you did your due diligence with the shadowing of both lawyers and doctors to figure out exactly what you would want. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Which is what students need to do. Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's why I always, like, well, that's part of our criteria for our medical school now is like, we strongly encourage people to shadow physician because, you know, I think people have this perception from Rochin Grey's Anatomy or scrubs. And, you know, like, when you shadow a doctor, kind of see the lifestyle and, and the good and the bad, you know, it's not all guts and glory. It's all all of its paperwork, a lot of it's dealing with insurance companies, a lot of it's kind of working within a bureaucrats system. So you have to be prepared for that. I think a lot of students are surprised about how, how regulated, how, how much training goes into, you know, being a physician and all the different aspects of it. That's awesome. I'm glad you mentioned that. So for, for you listening, just because you like Grey's Anatomy doesn't mean you're going to like being a doctor. Correct. Yeah. So, so, so from what you just told us, it sounded like your path into medicine was, was kind of just easy and you got into all the residencies you wanted and did everything you wanted. Were there any hiccups along the way where you kind of struggled and had to figure stuff out? Well, well, during medical school, like switching from pediatrics to psychiatrists, a big jump. And I remember that, you know, like, I was single at the time and like when you start telling people like, oh, I want to be a psychiatrist, that's kind of a turn off at parties. You know what I'm saying? And so I think I went through this kind of crisis moment, kind of existential. Like, you know, what am I going to do? Like, you know, I started medicine to do this. And now I'm jumping. And, you know, I had to have conversations with my family and they were very supportive. But it's just that, you know, when you kind of have this goal and then that goal kind of goes away and you're kind of in that uncertain territory about what path you should find after that. And I kind of like to tell like the applicants, or when you go to med school, like choosing a field, like choosing a major, but it's very different in medical school because you kind of pick at the end of your training. And that's one of the criticisms that I have about our traditional healthcare model is that, you know, you have to really kind of figure out, you know, at the end of your third year, but like a lot of the students know ahead of time. And it's very disconcerting. You know, I remember my classmates, like a few of my classmates just knew what they wanted to be. And during the first year, they started establishing mentors, mentors, and started doing all this extra shadowing. And they started doing research. And I was like, oh, I think I'm doing P's. And then that started to kind of melt away during third year. So that was kind of a crisis moment for me. It's like, what do I do? I felt like, oh my gosh, like my, because I had roommates at the time. One of my roommates just knew from day one who's going to be an ophthalmologist. And he had to have all these letters of recommendation lined up. He'd done all this research. And he matched an ophthalmology, became an ophthalmologist. And so I just had this crisis moment. Like, I don't know what I want to be. And that's why I really rely on mentors. I mean, at our medical school now, we're creating new programs called Core Faculty to kind of help the med students out to be more more visible presence for mentors. I can't emphasize enough having mentors in medical school really helps out. Because I think there's a lot of med students that know what they're going to do, but a lot of them have no idea. And so that was kind of my crisis moment. Okay. And that's a big one. Because I think a lot of people, a lot of students will continue to push along. They say, "I've gone this far and I've gotten this experience. I might as well just keep going." But it takes a lot of guts to stop and say, "No, this is not what I want to do." And something else that I think fascinating is that even in residency programs, I didn't experience this myself. But so I went into general psychiatry. And in my program at George Washington, we started off with four interns. In the second year, we expanded up to eight. And where those other four come from, they came from other residency programs. And so some of my classmates at that level became disillusioned after they picked a residency in OB/GYN or family practice. And they wanted to switch. And you talk about these crisis moments. I mean, you have to have those rarely uncomfortable conversations with your residency program director and say, "You know what? Even though I matched here and I said all those things on my interview day, I actually don't want to be a family practice doc. I want to try psychiatry." And it happens a lot more than I think medical students realize. We view this match as the final absolute authority. And for many people it is. But there's a fair amount of switching that goes on with the residency programs. As people try to figure out who they want to be and what kind of doctor they want to be. Yeah. Hopefully it's not the norm, but it can happen. Yeah. Very true. A little while ago, you mentioned how at University of Utah you're kind of adding that requirement in almost of shadowing a physician to make sure that these applicants know what it's like to be a physician besides what they're watching on TV. Why isn't the requirements for medical schools standardized between all the schools? I think that's one of the biggest issues. I get students asking me, "Does this school take this class? And does this school take this? And what credits? And every school is different. Why is that?" I think schools are fiercely proud institutions and there's a lot of tradition interwoven in this. But it's really, really hard to tell in medical school, you should have this criteria. You should have that criteria. The national organization, the double AMC, they have guidelines, but they kind of treat all the different schools like states. So like the double AMC is kind of the federal government and the different medical schools like states. And every state has their own kind of experiment going on. And my own personal view is like for our criteria, we try to be as straightforward as possible. We ask for research experience. We ask for community service. We ask for leadership experience. Physician shadowing, shadow physician, and then be exposed to patients. And those are kind of our five core criteria outside MCAT and GPA. Different medical schools I've talked to and they kind of look for the same things. And they really like our website because we kind of spell it out. But I think a lot of schools aren't as front with their criteria because everyone's a little bit different. Someone maybe excels in research and just gets published several times. And maybe they don't have as much community service. But I think schools kind of like casting a really wide net to kind of direct them to their own institution. So I don't know if that answers your question, Ryan. I often wonder the same thing. But I think there's also this national mentality is that a lot of students are just looking to check the box. And if they just kind of put their criteria out there and then students just kind of check the boxes and do everything. And then they don't get in. I think that leads to a lot of frustration. So I think sometimes medical schools are very hesitant to put out their criteria just because I think applicants kind of look at it as checking the box. And medical schools I can tell you hate students who just check the box. They like to see the passion. I like to see the determination, the motivation. And so I think that's why they're vague sometimes on their criteria. And that's the perfect answer. We try to tell students all the time. There's no checklist to get into medical school. Each student is telling their own story and that's what the medical schools are looking at. And so that's perfect. You just said one of the requirements that you're looking for in the list of requirements is the shadowing. And then you mentioned separately patient exposure. Can you help the listener clarify what those two things mean? So for us, this isn't shadowing is you're exactly that, you're shadowing a doctor. It's more of a passive activity. You're in the room with the doctor. You're watching interact with patients. You're seeing him return phone calls. You see him fill out paperwork for insurance companies. You see him meet with families to break bad news or good news or explain a procedure. So that is shadowing a doctor, getting kind of a sense of what the lifestyle is like, what it actually means to be a doctor. For us, patient exposure means getting your hands dirty. It doesn't mean necessarily that the doctor is in the room. And you're interacting with patients. And so we look at patient exposure as incredibly valuable. And I'm talking like skilled nursing facilities. I don't know a single sniff that if a student wants to volunteer and just interact with patients and help them out, that they would turn you down. Talk about hospice. We have these really great programs here in Utah where individuals were not necessarily meant to a hospice facility, but they would prefer to pass away at home. Sometimes they don't have family members. And so I know these hospice companies that are always looking for applicants or individuals who don't mind visiting someone who doesn't have family and just kind of talk and get to know them. Talking like group homes for children with developmental delays or disabilities or autism or things like that. They're always looking for individuals to interact with them. Respite care. And again, helping out a family who just needs a break from whatever is going on because they're primary caregivers and students can go in there and help. So when I say patient exposure, people immediately think of hospitals and clinics. And that is a great way. You know, like orderlies or working in the OR or things like that. But I also really advocate expanding. It gets to know patients for many different walks of life. So that's how we kind of see patient exposure. And we really try to separate that because there's something that just happens. There's that empathy, you know, when you just interact with someone who's really in need. And people can do this through jobs, you know. So if you're a CNA or EMT, that's great patient exposure experience. So it's not necessarily with a doctor in the room. So. Perfect. So in your role at the University of Utah, you see a lot of trends in the admissions process and what's going on with the AAMC and the new MCAT coming out. Can you give us a general overview for a freshman or sophomore right now in undergrad? What are some of the trends in the admissions process? What kind of things should they start thinking of right now? Yeah. Well, this, you know, and then this might be unique to our med school. The way I think about it, and it is perfect we're doing the podcast right now, is that flying in medical school, gaining in medical school, it is really like the Olympics, right? And so the way I look at it, and I kind of interwoven this in discussions I give when I visit all the undergrads, the different colleges and universities, is that you can train independently for the Olympics. And if you just have this natural God-given talent, more power to you, and you do see people like that who go in the Olympics and have no, who have like very little coaching or training and they do really well, but the vast majority of athletes that compete in the Olympics, they have coaches and trainers along the way. And what I'm referring to is for the medical students is the pre-medical offices. I have noticed a national trend because of the specialization of different schools because of how harder and hard it is gaining in, is that more and more pre-medical offices are taking a prominent role. And I especially hear in Utah and Idaho, and a lot of the schools we interact with in the West, I've seen a much more robust pre-medical office. And what I mean by pre-medical office is at the start, if you're a freshman or sophomore in college, they're meeting with them. They're kind of going over class schedules. And most of these offices provide really valuable services. I can't emphasize that enough. They'll sit down with you and do practice mock interviews with you, both traditional interviews as well as the MMI. They'll review your application. They'll kind of read through your personal statements. And for our school, it's incredibly important. You need to write well. And I am just amazed at the amount of essays we get, which have grammar issues or typos or things like that. I mean, you're applying to medical school. This is a professional graduate program. And you're turning in – I mean people are misspelling the word pediatrics and surgery on their applications just blows me away. So that's the first trend I've kind of seen. I've seen kind of this specialization. And then more – so I can totally tell when someone who works with their pre-med office and they have a really nice application versus someone I can tell that did not. And they kind of miss what we're looking for. And their application is kind of put together haphazardly at the last minute. And so what I've seen is the pre-med offices are working very hard at the very beginning in identifying the students who are interested in medicine and mentoring them for their three, four years of undergrad and helping them really prepare a really professional appropriate application to medical school. The second thing I've noticed going back to you mentioning the MCAT. So the MCAT is changing in 2015. Anyone who takes MCAT nowadays is taking the 1991 version. They've already gotten rid of the writing sample. So again, that's why medical schools are putting more emphasis on the writing when you kind of apply to medical school. And so they're creating a whole new section. And this new section is going to be focused more on behavioral sciences. And I'm talking like psychology, sociology, anthropology, things like that. And so I often get questions from applicants. Like why are we tested? Why is this important? And the way I think about it is that in medicine there are these core bedrock principles. You know, no one should be smoking. We should all be taking our medications that's prescribed. We should all be eating healthier or engaging in some type of exercise activity, right? So we know these to be true. The hard part is, the really hard part is, is helping your patients get to those points. And so in our medical school curriculum, as I'm sure at other medical schools, there's more and more emphasis on the behavioral sciences. How do you work with your patients developing a smoking cessation plan? How do you encourage them to exercise more and be healthier? And so in individual doctor patient appointments, these behavioral plans are being introduced. And as a physician, you're being required to kind of emphasize this more. So we're kind of testing this at the front end. And I think that's why there's a greater emphasis on the social sciences. And so I've noticed when I talk to different undergrads, they've seen a surge in interest from all the pre-med students going into, you know, psychology, sociology, anthropology, not only to prepare for the MCAT, but also recognizing that the curriculum at our level is shifting. And they're going to be just like they take like anatomy as an undergrad, it prepares them to take it as a medical student, same thing with psychology, sociology, anthropology, things like that. So those are the two big trends I've seen, a greater emphasis on the behavioral sciences and more of a reliance on robust growth in the pre-medical offices, at least out here in the West. Okay. With a lot of the changes in the economy here in the US, there seems to be a large influx of non-traditional students. How do you see non-traditional students fitting in with going back into medical school and training? And do you think they have a leg up on a traditional student? In certain cases, yes. I mean, you have a funny ask that question, Ryan. So I'm at here at the University of Utah. I would say we're kind of the land of non-traditional students. So the average age of our mature-claimed student is about usually a year to a year and a half older than across the nation. And there's a lot of socioeconomic reasons for that, as you mentioned. I think our admissions committee loves maturity, they love the wisdom. And so when you say a leg up, I think there is a certain degree of that. I think more and more individuals, when I'm going out there on the college trail, I'm kind of hearing more and more about these gap years, which I'm sure you've talked about in your previous podcast, where people graduate college. They kind of have an idea what they want to do, and they kind of realize it's a long path. So they pursue a different, you know, they just go down a different road. They become a teacher, teach for America, as I'm seeing more and more applicants who do teach for America, try coming into medical school. They do a Peace Corps, they go on an LDS Mormon mission. There's all these things that people are starting to do before they apply to medical school. And as a general principal, I think our committees really enjoy that. I think there's a certain maturity that you kind of develop, you see on the interview day, and when they write more passionately about these life experiences. So I definitely see more and more non-traditional students applying. And I do think they have a leg up in certain ways. The harder part is, and this is where it gets a little bit dicier, is that going back to activities, you know, if you're applying to non-traditional, you know, in your late 20s, I think you're in really good territory. What I'm seeing more and more people in their 30s and even early 40s, and by that time you usually have a partner, marriage, kids might be involved. And so when you start looking at people's applications, you know, if you're looking at community service and physician chat, all those different themes, it's a really struggle for those type of applicants who are non-traditional to go head-to-head against applicants in their mid-delight 20s who have more free time to kind of fulfill these different areas. And so I think that's a constant tension within a mission committees, and I've talked to other schools about this, and they all kind of recognize that this is happening. And we try to be as fair as possible, but I do see a lot of people who become lawyers, who are business bankers, who have done their job for five, 10, 15 years, and they always kind of had that itch. They want to go to med school, and they want to scratch that itch. And so they start pointing together as applications, and sometimes they're really good, sometimes they're not so good. And so I think it's just kind of an individual basis. So I tell everyone, at our medical school, we pride ourselves on having non-traditionals. We actually have a medical student spouse association, which I'm not sure if that exists to other medical schools, because about half our student body has married at any given time. And so it's open to both men and women. I've heard of rumors of babysitting co-ops that have sprung up. So I think our medical school is really good at tracking non-traditionals. That's interesting. Let's talk about what you're doing with your podcast. You have your own podcast. Why did you start a podcast? Well, I have no-- So the question is, why do I start my own podcast? I've noticed there's just this craving for information. So every year, I go out and visit all the local colleges in Utah and most in Idaho. And so I would do a presentation, and I would do my best to answer all their questions. But inevitably, there's always questions I don't get to or I don't think of. And when my presentation would end, I would have like 20, 30 people deep would just wait in line to talk to me. And sometimes I would get the same question again and again, and a lot of times it's like, why should I choose the U? Or what about this situation? What about that situation? And there's just this craving for knowledge. And I thought like, you know what, I like podcasts. I'm a big NPR fan. I love listening to podcasts. I love-- have some sports podcasts I like. And going back to our curriculum, we actually podcast all our lectures. So this kind of like way of learning I know is out there. So I made a decision in talking to the people and the missions and the deans off. This is like, why don't I just start podcasting? And interview a bunch of people who are affiliated with the U, interview a bunch of pre-medical advisors, have them talk about their programs. Because they like the support I'm giving them and trying to help their programs be as strong as they can be. And let me just talk to current med students. Because for a lot of our students, they never interacted with students. There's this weird kind of divide like, you know, oh, you're a med student. I can't possibly ask you these questions. So I decided to kind of centralize that knowledge and start podcasting. And so it's been incredibly positive so far. I've gotten really good feedback. I try to put as much information as I can. It's a learning process. I'm sure you're aware, Ryan, that it's kind of hard at the beginning. But as you do more and more of them, it's kind of like, you know, see you and do and teach you and kind of the same principle. I feel like I'm doing a much better job in my own interviews. But for me, it's just providing information. Because what makes my heart is that there are people out there that are interested in medical school that maybe don't work with their premed office or they go to a college university, you know, in the Midwest or the East Coast who doesn't really have affiliation with us or doesn't really know us that well. And they are unsure of the process and they're unsure of what we look for or who we are. So my heart aches is because I want to give the exact same information to them as someone who I did a presentation to at a local college year. So that was kind of the genesis of that. I just want to provide equal information to everyone. And to me, it's been an incredible learning tool too because I've learned so much about our curriculum, our hospital, different people's lives. I mean, I interviewed, you know, like, I'm trying to interview some of the lesser known residency programs like PM&R, Physical Medicine Rehab. You know, I remember during my med school days like, oh, you know, what's this PM&R thing? I learned about that very late in the process. And so I'm trying to get just getting provided information. So my target audiences are pre-medical students, obviously. My second is current medical students. And that's why I'm going along around to the different residency program directors. I'm asking them, what do you look for in applicants? How can applicants come and rotate? You know, do you look favorably if someone rotates in our hospital on your service and things like that because a lot of students come to me like, oh, Dr. Chan, thank you so much for doing that podcast about ophthalmology. I want to be an ophthalmologist and realize that I need to start doing X, Y, and Z. So so that's got so I use it as an educational tool just to kind of have a consistent clear message to all the people that listen. So is that the same same reason why you started, right? I know you've been doing it a little bit longer. Yeah, it sounds it sounds like we have pretty much the same mission. So it started very similar as an Air Force member. I had lots of young airmen coming up to me and asking, I want to go back to medical school. What do I need to do? And I would sit down and talk to them for about an hour and a half. And after several times, I realized that this kind of information really isn't out there. And the places where the information is, it's a little bit more hostile environment online. And the information is a little bit harder to get. So I myself loved listening to podcasts. And I said, why not? And 66 weeks later, we're here. Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate reaching out to me. I would love, you know, once we have the technological capabilities on our end, I would love to have you on our podcast and just talk about your experiences. Because, you know, your experience with the military, the Air Force, is not uncommon out here. I mean, Utah has a very strong history of, you know, being very dedicated armed forces. So I'm getting more and more questions from applicants, especially like looking out, you know, I love the question, Dr. Chan, like, you know, med school is really expensive. You know, is it worth it to join the armed forces? And then I start getting, then I start getting in the weeds. I'm not really sure, like, you know, the difference between, you know, uses versus like ROTC and all that stuff. And so I would love to have you on our podcast. That'd be great. Where can people find your podcast? So right now it's on iTunes. It's called Talking Admissions and Med Student Life. There is a link to, you know, on our home website, our admissions website, there is a link. But for the vast majority of people, it's just easier if I stare into iTunes. So just go to iTunes and put Talking Admissions and Med Student Life. And you'll see like a little, you know, University of Utah, like a logo pop up. And that's me. So just click on it. And then you can subscribe to it. And my goal is to do, you know, try to get a new one once a week. And we've been kind of maintaining that for now. And, and yes, it's really going to pause experience. What's, what has been your favorite episode? My favorite episode, and I'm still kind of learning how to do this, when, you know, like, I, again, like, people think of being met as, like, if you're a doctor, you're very busy, and you have all this stuff going on, which is true. But I like it when we kind of go off on tangents and kind of talk about fun stuff. And people can realize how much fun it is to be a doctor and how much, you know, how interacting with your colleagues or all these different people is just so enlightening and just so much fun. And so I think my favorite episodes is like when I think, "All right, we're going to talk about X, Y, and Z." But then the discussion really gets going. And then we talk about, you know, A, B, and C. And then we kind of like learn things about each other. And then I can share that kind of discussion with others. And so, so I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to move away from a question and answer format, which I think do think that's important to have some guidelines. But moving to more of just like having a fun discussion about life and how being a doctor impacts that and what it means to be a physician nowadays. And so those are my favorite ones. I also, I love interviewing our own medical students too because, you know, I have my own particular view of the curriculum, you know, sitting in the dean's office. But then when I talk to the med students, they kind of fill me in on these other things. And I just love talking about that because like they're experiencing it firsthand. So I would think generally my favorite ones are when we go off on tangents. And at any time I talk to the med students, it's really fun. I mean, I did a podcast with one of our third years named Kyle. And we just, and apparently it came out in the middle of the discussion that he's like known as the fashion guru of his class. So we just started talking male fashion. And I just learned a whole bunch from him. I love that. So they would kind of like, okay, so when you wear scrubs, this is an official protocol, you know, it's like, all right, when you're in a different hospital, you can't, you can't wear like the blue scrubs where you're supposed to be wearing green scrubs and you can't mix up the tops and the bottoms, you know, you're getting trouble as a med student if you pull that off. So we just kind of started talking about the general rules of wearing scrubs. And it was just a really good discussion. That's awesome. That sounds like fun. So for all of you listening to my podcast, go listen to Dr. Chan's podcast. You'll get a lot of great information. Is it more dedicated towards the University of Utah or are you looking to kind of reach out and do more broad information as well? I would say half and half. I would say half the podcast are more definitely geared to University of Utah. But the other half I think would apply to anyone. And that's why I'm getting really enthusiastic responses from the different residency program directors because we get a lot of students who come to our med school for fourth year electives or who are applying to our residency programs. So we're drawing them from all across the nation. And so, you know, I think it's the service primarily for students in Utah. They kind of know me, but I have no problems going outside Utah. So I would say that half the podcast are more Utah-centric and other half are just more like, you know, just for anyone. All right. Can we wrap up with some advice to a pre-med student out there who's dying to go to medical school, but maybe started off their pre-med path a little bit rocky and is questioning whether or not they can get in and what they should be doing? So it's probably a coin phrase, but I always say follow your passion. But let me give you an example. What Archimini loves is people who go out and make the world a better place. And I use the phrase branching out. And I love it when individuals branch out and go outside the comfort zone. So what Archimini loves to see is, you know, making a little better place, start volunteering at a homeless shelter at hospice or some entity, and then sticking with that. And then as you get more experience and the people who you work with see that leadership within you, they see what a great person you are, you are starting to give more responsibility within an organization. So Archimini loves it when people go outside their comfort zone. They go do something that they're a little unsure of because when you think about, you know, they're in our training, right? I mean, I can't remember how many times I was placed outside my comfort zone and I had this personal growth. You know, I had this insight, oh, you know, I was really anxious. And then I did this. It wasn't so bad. And now I'm really thriving in it. And Archimini loves that. And so going outside your comfort zone, gauging in an activity, making the world a better place, and then branching out, kind of accept that responsibility, kind of grow an organization. So let me give you an example, like Habitat for Humanity. I have no idea how to build a home, but more and more people are doing Habitat for Humanity, kind of building homes in the community. And then they kind of realize, well, this is kind of fun. I like this. And then I've seen people have gotten into our medical school that they get this, you know, bug, you know, like, oh, I like building homes. This is awesome. And then when you get to see the family move in, that's great. And then Habitat for Humanity sees this leadership. Like, okay, this person's really good. We're going to make them a foreman or a rural person. And then they decide to, you know, send them to a different area of country, maybe to Central South America to do the same thing. And then we can kind of see that growth as they branch out. And, oh, hey, they got sent down to Mexico to help build houses. And then they got in contact with this school. And the school kind of needed help with supplies or something like that. And we see this person branching out from that original activity. And we just love that. So anyone who's thinking about wanting to go to med school, it's not about checking the boxes. It's about making the world a better place, showing us what you can do. And we see that skill of branching out, being perfect for a doctor. And that's what we kind of put your physicians to do. All right, folks, that, again, was Dr. Chan from the University of Utah, Assistant Dean of Admissions. And by the way, host of Talking Admissions and Med Student Life. Go find his podcast. It's on iTunes. I give you my blessing to go to go listen to it and subscribe to it. There is a ton of information out there that he is delivering. And he's got a lot of great guests for you to hear from. So talking admissions and med student life in iTunes, go listen to it. Find us on Twitter. We're at medical school HQ. If you haven't done so yet, we would love for you to go to medical school hq.net/itunes and leave us an honest rating and review. It only takes a minute and helps us immensely in iTunes. You can also do the same if you listen through Stitcher or yeah, through Stitcher, you can leave us a rating and review there as well. If you have any questions for Dr. Chan, have any comments on today's show, go to medicalschoolhq.net/68 as an episode 68 and leave us a comment there. And don't forget, go to freemcatgift.com and download that great 30 plus page report on everything you need to know about the MCAT. I truly hope that you got a lot of great information out of today's podcast. And as always, I hope you join us next time here at the medical school headquarters. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]
