I definitely have multiple tabs of written music open at all times. Yeah, I have mainly because I forget to close them. Well, I need, I need them to be able to access the specific charts that I'm looking at. All right, let's start. Yeah, they yell at me now that I'm about to start recording. We have, yep, page and Dr. Beelah, Dr. Beelah, emergency. No, it really makes us mad. Wasting money on CDs with only one or two good songs. Yeah, tell them about punk. What's up, posters? Welcome to the punk cloud upon. I'm your host, Justin Hensley. I'm your other co-host, Dylan Hensley. And this is the show where we choose one year at random and select one punk, hardcore emo or punk adjacent album from that year to discuss. Dylan is back with us now after a week away. We appreciate friend of the show, Dave Brown, for filling in as co-host last week. And if you want to hear what Dylan was up to over the last week, you can head on over to patreon.com/punkglottopod. On the most recent episode, we did a news of the world. And in it, Dylan talked about his ventures on his road trip to see old faithful. Old faithful. His three star mid review of old faithful. Maybe it's all right, I guess. That was a fun conversation about the news, many kinds of news. Yeah, lots of different stories. We actually, it was actually pretty busy like month for stories. So covered a lot of different topics there. Normally the summer is pretty dead when it comes to those, those kind of stories. And they were quite a few. Definitely worth talking about, but you can get that for one dollar. And if you want to devote an entire episode to an album that you want us to talk about, you could join at the $10 tier, do a one time $10 donation. You choose the album we talk about and we do a whole episode on it. And we've got a couple of those. We have some plan for the future. I need to talk to them whenever they want to get them done. But yeah, we got a few out there. So the slots are open again. They were closed for a minute. We have two slots. We always keep open. So if you want to get in there, hop on in. But also like if for some reason, both slots are full and you still want one, I'll go ahead and open up another one for you, which it doesn't take much to change to add an extra seat to the to the tier. But honestly, I could just have it unlimited and I don't think it would matter. I don't think we would be too swamped with selections, but patreon.com/punklotopod. So this week, it was your turn to be assigned the year. So looking through, we hadn't done the 80s in a minute. And I saw that it's been over a year since we covered the year 1981. We covered it last June on episode two, 33. We did mission of Burma's signals, calls and marches. Prior to that, we did episode 168. We covered wild gift by the band X. We did that one with Ian from Kowloonwald City. Then back at episode 74, we had echo in the bunny men's heaven up here and government issues. Legless bull EP is back in the album and EP at days, where we had Taylor of diversified DIY on. And way back in episode 49, we did the stranglers, the gospel according to the men in black and seven seconds socially fucked up with Josh from late brim bloomer. So we fit 81 a couple times there. So out of the 80s, it's probably one of the ones we've said for maybe like 88 or 89. It's one of the ones we've maybe hit not as many times. So as usual, what were some albums from anyone that you were considering for us to talk about? Not too many. I know I sent you a few. Let me find them again. Oh, yeah, there they are. I I considered living in darkness by Agent Orange. That's there are more than one Agent Orange records. There are there are a couple of Agent Orange records. OK, that's the first one. That's like the one, though. Like that is the big Agent Orange record. And I was like, you know, that's a that's an early band, a kind of unique band, a band doing something that would fit more within a conventional definition of punk rock at the time, which was kind of unusual for for where they were from, for being in the early 80s. They're not they're not a full on. You wouldn't really I don't know that you would really call them a hardcore band. There's an element of hardcore there, but I feel like they're also in that category of like, well, there's like the surf punk thing too, and they they feel like they fit within the same category as like the descendants in terms of like being really kind of being a predecessor to the 90s skate punk sound, which is really, you know, it's like pop punk and skate punk and Agent Orange, to me, seems like an understated, but really influential band. But I don't really know very much about it. I don't think I've ever actually listened to that record. I have it's actually a really good record. I mean, if you like the song, Bloodstains, like you'll like the whole record because it's very much in that like surfy punk thing throughout the whole album. Yeah, I mean, even if you like like early offspring, like they very clearly lifted from Bloodstains for the song, keep them separated. Yeah. So that was that was a pretty strong contender. I guess the reason I well, we'll get into the reason why I picked what I picked. But I also considered Prince Charming by Adam and the Ants, which is that's a pretty important Adam Adam and the Ants record. We've never done and Adam, no, maybe not. I think we talked about them in like Patreon content and then maybe they were on the 100 to 100, but the 100 100 is in our top 10 currently of most listened to episodes, a gimmick episode on the being pretty popular, but we covered lots of artists that tends to usually be the thing. So that's one that I know that would have been probably pretty easy to talk about. And it feels like a significant artist and I it's and maybe an interesting artist to talk about in the through the lens of punk and what is punk at this time period because it's it's kind of honestly a stretch to call Adam a punk band. I mean, it's new wave, new romantic, you know, that's all branches off of punk. But at at that point, that's kind of a sound that is really popular and pretty far removed from, you know, there are bands that we're starting right before, you know, or at this time that we're just like responding to new wave as a genre that had already existed for a few years up to this point. So it feels like it's a sound that kind of comes from punk, but it's it's far enough away from punk to really be classified as its own thing. I also feel like today, we don't realize exactly how big and how important Adam and the ants were for punk music at the time. Like, I think they're one of those bands that like massively influential, very important in the moment, but then like as soon as like we got out of that like early 80s period, it just like disappeared and evaporated and like they're important because like for a lot of people, this is what punk music was. Like to them, the definition of punk was Adam and ants, you know, like that was the early punk bands. They were like some of the most like mainstream punk adjacent artists out there. And then they were like they're massive in the UK, but they're really big here in the States too. And so big, like, you know, Darby Crash was like obsessed with Adam and the ants whenever he went to the UK, like after the germs initially broke up. Yeah, he was trying to do a trying to do an atom in the ants with the Darby Crash band. And I think that, well, I guess part of it culturally, like the new romantic aspect of it, people really just go to like Duran Duran culture club and that kind of stuff, ABC soft sell, you know, the much more new romantic, you know, new wave stuff that you hear on an 80s radio station now, which I feel like you don't hear Adam songs. They are not done on the radio. Like I said, it feels like I know like all these artists from this time period, like the 80s was their peak in their popularity. But at the same time, like that didn't carry past the 80s, it feels like. It feels like they were kind of like forgotten about going forward. And I don't know if is it because it was so bombastic? So like really over the top. And maybe it, I don't know. There's such a weird band that it's like they had horns in a lot of songs. I could see that being like a turn off for a lot of people, but I don't know. There's horns all over the 80s. Yeah, there's something about their sound though that is very much their sound that I've never really heard replicated. It's a very percussive sound. Like, well, one, the way the drums are in all their records too, like those humongous drums on all their albums. It's just a very like punchy band. Well, there's less for, you know, for where they sat, the scene that they were in and like the kind of bands that they were probably most similar to in terms of like song writing. They weren't as like synthesizer focused. Right. They definitely use much more organic and sounds and much more traditional rock instrumentation. Yeah, I mean, definitely heavy emphasis on like those drums, the auxiliary percussion. I don't know. I don't know why they fell out of. I think they fell out of play listing. I think they fell out of, you know, radio play listing and just kind of fell out of. They also, you know, ended early in the 80s too, like they didn't keep going. So it's now they're just a family guy joke, I guess. I don't know culturally. That's the relevance. I don't know. We heard them all the time because our dad liked them. So yeah, similar both our parents are mom like that too. And like when they pop up and stuff, I'm always like, wow, somebody's using like, you know, when it pops up in like hot fuzz, like the beginning of the movie, it's just like, whoa, like that. It just, I don't know. Maybe it just was of its time and that was kind of like it. But I also think a lot of it holds up really well. So I don't know. Surprising. Yeah. What the Prince Jarmin was the last LP by them. And then Adam Ant went solo and did friend or foe in 82, but then like everything he did after that. It's like, man, yeah, yeah, there's also just where he goes. Musically, as a solo artist, probably doesn't help. Yeah. I also considered solid gold by gang of four because we have not done a gang of four record. We have not. And I guess what maybe I decided not. I don't know. I didn't go with that one probably because it's not entertainment, but I don't know. It is still really good. It's always with the free is still really good. So I was like, I don't know. Should we do the one if we're going to do gang of four? Yeah, yeah, that's kind of my thinking of most of these picks. Agent Orange, that would be the one to do. Like that is the record to do. They only had one other 80s album and then like they did another one in the 90s. So that would be the one to do there. So genuine. I genuinely think we'll probably get to that agent orange record. The either the next or the time after we do 81 again with at a man, I would probably rather do the album before Prince Charming or even his solo for solo record. Cause I think both of those are better than Prince Charming. And then with, yeah, with gang of four, I was like, entertainment's kind of like the one, right? It's like the blueprint record for post-punk going forward. It's one of the blueprint records for post-punk going forward. But I don't know what the rest of their discography is kind of they honestly be a prime exam prime. Challengeography ban, because I know nothing about the discography. Really beyond like the first year records, it's not very long. Yeah. Well, I forgot how much they did when they came back. Is it like a new order thing where they have like way more albums past their prime? Well, it's like four records, you know, in pretty quick succession, 79, 81, 82, 83. And then they have like a 91 record, a 95 record, a 2005 record, 2011, 2015, 2019. They have more post-initial breakup records than original run records. I don't think that any of them are considered good. So that might be a very painful. Challengeography. People think hard is terrible. The last original run gang of four record is fine. It's not, I think it's fine. It's not great. It's definitely not entertainment or solid gold or even songs of the free. But it's, it's not unlistable. It's just, you know, it's the last one and it has the reputation of being inferior. And also, like, I think people call it more of a sellout record. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know enough about their discography to really say. I guess if we're looking at the overall what else came out in 1981, definitely. All right, we got to tell people what rate your music.com punk album sorted by popularity for 90 day one is deceit by this heat. What, what, what, why? They recorded it in a meat locker. I'm sure they did. Who is it? Anybody? It's this heat. Experimental. They're just a, they're just in the experimental UK post. The secondary genres driving me crazy. Avant Prague tape music. Industrial, craft rock and sound collage, all things I don't like. Yeah, I've heard stuff from this that I like. I haven't listened to the album. I'm sure there's stuff on there that I don't like. We do have faith by the cure, which is their, I believe their third LP. So early cure pre pre pop cure. I definitely have heard this record before, but I didn't love it. No, I've heard it before too. It's so much early cure stuff is just like I recognize that this is good. This is good. I don't really want to listen to it. Yeah, it's not for me, but I, it's, it's the kind of stuff where I'm like, I totally get how some people are into this and I don't want to begrudge them. Like go for it. I wish I liked it more. It's really kind of the feeling. We have damaged by black flag, major, major record. Probably should be the actual number one on here, but whatever. Something else you'll hate, Glenn Bronco, the Ascension. Yeah, Glenn Bronco. What's Glenn Bronco's thing, Mrs. Dilly? No wave, no wave. That's right. Yeah, no wave, police, totalism, like rhythmic structures. Uh-huh. Oh, OK, does it just go do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do for 10 minutes. Hmm, excellent record. Juju by Susie and the Banshees, probably the best Susie and the Banshees record. My favorite for sure, incredible record. I love this album so much. I listened to a youth of America by wipers recently. I don't know what prompted me to, but I just, I listened to it and I was like, I think I thought I liked this less the first time I heard it. I probably used to think that the song youth of America is like 10 minutes long. I was like, Oh, this is unnecessarily long. Let's think to you. And again, I'm like, I'm totally into this. Like I shouldn't like it so much as it is just repetitive. Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do for 10 minutes. There's so many crazy guitar noises and like, and it comes back when it swings back around into that chorus. It's like, Oh, yeah. I mean, the rest of the record, you know, it's be pushing the extreme. You know, this killer stuff on it. I didn't realize that this was considered their best record. It is not. Now that's the thing I don't I still don't agree with that assessment. I a lot of people think it's their best record. Uh, we have the album that taught new order how to record records on their own. Uh, movement by new order. This is their first post joy division album. And yeah, the only record they used a producer. Who then they were just like, and how do you do that? OK, write that down real quick and right. Well, thank you for so much for your help. We'll never use you again. And we will just tell the engineers what you said to these engineers. We're just going to repeat and then we're going to sit there and irritate them. Telling them, no, I want it to be more squibbly. Oh, I think it should be more wobbly, wibbly wobbly. Anyone's a pretty solid year. We got the gun clubs, fire of love, sort of psychobilly band. Yeah, punk blues, death rock, even. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know that people actually properly classify them as death rock, but they were definitely part of that scene. We got Bauhaus's mask. Uh, we've got the police ghost in the machine. I think my least favorite police record, you know, I haven't listened to them all, though. I can't 100% for sure say, but I listened to it this week. I guess I should say this for when I'm listening later, but I did this to this week. And I was like, the others are better. Looking at the ratings and radio music, the users agree. So yeah, yeah, it's it's probably the least fun police record. It was a lot. It was not very fun. Like, I was like, yeah, every little thing. Which does magic is fun. Is there another single? I feel like there's another single on this record, but I'm blanking out which one it is. But yeah, I listened to it and I was like, hmm, definitely have more fun with the rest of their, their discography, probably just spirits in the material world. Yeah, that's one. I think it's like it's a song that you know, but you don't know the name. Well, I mean, we got October by you two, which was their, what is this? Is there second LP? Cause it did boy before this and 80. Yeah, so second LP, which features, I don't know. I don't think this one has a big, big hit on it. No, I don't think it does. I don't think I don't think anything for war has a hit. Yeah. So I guess one of the records that when I was kind of just casually scrolling through it just to see what else came out that year. And I was like, you know, if it was me choosing this week's episode, I probably would have gone with the Adlessance self titled album. Because I know nothing about the Adlessance. Other than they're important and that album covers everywhere. Like I don't, I've heard Adlessance songs. I know that, you know, Steve Soto's in the band and a whole lot of members over time, but this is like the one, right? Like this is their big record. They didn't do a follow up until 87. It looks like so they have more albums than you think. They have 12 albums, but they waited six years before they made their second album. So and then they do a third one and 88. And then they don't do anything until oh, five OC constant confidential. So yeah, they're a big question mark band. They're one of those bands where it's like, you just saw the album cover more than you ever heard them or heard anyone talk about them. You just like, that's an important band, but like, are they really that important? You know, was it just because they were there, you know, but they would have been more important if they had not taken six years, I think. Yeah. I mean, I could honestly, I could have easily picked where to go. Minute works business as usual. I was like, that's probably too far. I don't think it would have been fun to listen to and talk about it. I know it's fun to listen to because the record kicks ass rules. That's why I would have picked it because it's awesome. Love that record is the Duran Duran record too far outside the scope of punk as well. It's the first one. Yeah. Girls on film, first track, it's probably the one that's most justifiable to do. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I'd do it with Rio. Very, it might be like, this is a pop record. What are you doing? Rio is great too. Yeah. Seven in the ragged tiger. Yeah, funny band, just a funny band, because they were just like kind of like the pretty boy band, like this kind of how they were thought of at the time. Yeah. I mean, talk, talk, talk about a second. They look first, definitely up on the list of options as well. Oh, Beauty and the Beat by the go goes. Oh, yeah. That would have been actually great. I listened to that last week. I don't have saved it to my phone and I did listen to it in the car. And like, that's a fun, fun record. Yeah, all three of the records were fun. I don't know if that fourth one that came out in the 2000s was any good, but. I mean, we can rapify some more. We have the punchline by the minute men. What's this for? Like killing joke. We got Joseph K's, the only fun in town, new traditionalists by Diva. Yeah. Yeah, that would have been, that would have been a really fun one. Jerkin back and forth. Oh, yeah. I love rock and roll by Joan Jett, but I figured that's double dipping. I have already covered it. So it's one that if we were to do a Joan Jett record again, I'd want a guest for that just to have another voice. I'm not against covering the same artist, multiple, you know, multiple times, or even covering an album that I've covered in something else. On its own, but sneak peek. I think the next episode of Joan Jett's Child Geography has the best record, at least the best record I've heard so far. So I'll leave that little teaser out there. Is it an 80s record? It is. OK, yeah, I haven't got to the 90s yet, but I was reading an article that was saying, it was maybe a review or is like somebody talking about her because they were like a radio DJ and they like interviewed her in like the 90s. And then one of the things that person said in the in the article was that there's not a bad Joan Jett record. Now, I don't know if that just comes from a mega fan, you know, yeah, or if it's true. At this stage, I've heard six of them and none of them are bad. So it's the glorious results. We have it. I don't want to I don't want to give it away. All right, I guess I'm just looking at her discovery. I'm like, which one would it be? Yeah, I will say the the this episode, whenever it gets done, I got it. Lots of notes, it's it's also very hard to find good information about these records. You have to like try and find as many like interviews from the time period to really get a feel for what's going on. And those are really hard to actually come across them. I did find like a like Joan Jett fan club website that has like tons of interviews in it, so I'm hoping that will be a good resource. I go to read going forward, but I will say though, this next episode, what I expected to happen and what I wanted to happen with her. Discography does start to happen. So I hope that trend continues going forward, but we get into some weird stuff. We get weird stuff earlier than I thought we would is really what I'm thinking. But but we should get into the actual album. We could have done party by Iggy Pop. We could have. This is like the post Bowie stuff, right? Yeah, that's the that's the end of the line. I think for most people, I think soldier has its, you know, apologists. But nobody likes party. And then it's after it's from party onward, where it's like every other record is good. Yeah, and then and like the the off ones are terrible. He's weird because he's like, it's really just who he works with, right? Like that's that's the key to a Nicki Pop record. It's like who else is on the album with him, you know, because it's. Does he write any music, you know, like outside of the lyrics? He does because he wrote a lot of the music for the Stooges. I don't know if he just like he's like, I can just play chords. I think maybe he maybe plays the piano, probably plays the guitar a little bit. Try to remember what I what I read about how he wrote the Stooges stuff that he wrote. I think he probably played the guitar or some. Yeah. And then they're just like, well, figure out a riff to play. Yeah, but he comes up with the melodies, I guess. Yeah, I've just never seen the man hold an instrument. Yeah, I don't know like what he does to write. But yeah, well, let's get into it. So I gave you the year 1981 and you selected pleasant dreams by the Ramones. [Music], and I'll be right back. [Music], and I'll be right back. [Music] We want the world and we want it now. We're going to take it and now we want the airway. We want the airway. That's right. We want the airway, baby. We're gonna stand up. Oh, you went on right. Let's write tonight on right. [Music] Oh, you went on right. Let's write tonight on right. [Music] The Ramones formed in 1974 in Forest Hills, Queens, New York. What are you laughing at? The way you said Ramones as like, Romanes? I did say it weird when I first said it. The Ramones. Hey, it's the Ramones. I love the US punk band, the Ramones. Released July 20th, 1981. So we were recording this two days to the what? What anniversary would that be? Can we do math? Slowly. The 43rd birthday of this record. Yeah, that's not a one. But it's anything special for their 43rd birthday. You don't even get out of work. You gotta go to work on your birthday. Yeah, yeah. I do have some co-workers who are like, "Yeah, I took off for my birthday next week." He's like, "You took a whole week off for your birthday? That's weird." You're over 30. It may just be like, "I want to take a week off." Might as well do it around my birthday. It's in the summer. I could do some fun stuff. Yeah. If it makes sense to take your vacation then. Yeah. But yes, released on Sire Records. This is the band's sixth full-length album. And the personnel in this album is Joey Ramon on vocals. Johnny Ramon on guitar. D.D. Ramon on bass and Markie Ramon on drums. And the album was produced by Graham Goldman of the band Ten CC. And there are some additional musicians on here as well. We have Vic Emerson providing sense of keys. He is also from the band Ten CC. We have David Hassel who is a percussionist and performed on some John Cooper Clark albums who is, he is the British punk poet. Who shows up on all the British panel shows now. And it's some of the worst fucking poetry I've ever heard. It's like little Miss Muffet sat on a tough it. And Kat struck back. It's very like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A B rhyme simple baby poetry. And it's just like, you're famous for this? He was hanging out with the punks. So that's how he did it. We also Graham Goldman also plays some guitar on the record as well. And there's like a whole story about the recording and everything going into this. This actually is maybe the most information about an album recording that we have out there. Along with like maybe the end of a century being the other one. But sorry, we got to go back to this because I just read this quote from a 2024 interview with John Cooper Clark. I write all my poems with a quill by Handellight. If you see a picture of them, of course you do. He looks like Ricocasic. But more insane. Yeah. Yeah. He's on the British shows all the time. And I see he comes on and he writes poems for the show. Like they'll do like, they'll have them on eight out of ten cats does countdown. And he does like his little poems between rounds. And it's just terrible. So bad. Like I don't get why people love this guy so much. Maybe he's not giving them the good material. I mean he's making it up on the spot for the show. So no. So maybe I'm missing the good stuff. But he just delivers it in just like beret, finger snapping like West Village type. Yeah. Yeah. He's a big caroac. The challenger. Yeah. Yeah. Beat poet thing. Yeah. Yeah. But like the beat though it's didn't they like skew rhyme schemes altogether. It's like prose in a, in a, in a, I am big pentameter. Yeah. Already I'm wrong. Maybe we should actually read some beat poetry. Heard howl. I saw that movie. The, the. The French, Franco, Franco. I've heard the caroac quotes in the Jawbreaker songs. In step brothers when he said they went caroac on all their asses. It was pretty funny. I saw that Jack caroac movie too. The one that was it on the road? Like fairly recently, right? When he, who's in that fucking movie? Kristen Stewart. Oh, right. It was like, she was like the star of the movie. It's like, you're not Jack caroac. Why are you the star of this movie? She's like the, the woman that rides in the car with them. Yeah. Uh, Vigio Morgan, Morgan Stein is in that movie. Kristen Dunst is in it too. I forgot she was in that. Vigio Morgan Stein. That's the, that's the, always sunny. Halloween episode where he's dressed as Aragorn. And he's calling the character Vigio Morgan Stein. I completely forgot about that one. All right. So as usual, we have previously covered their mons. We did way, way, way, way back in episode four, which is, I think, still one of our most listened to episodes. Geez. I can't imagine how terrible that is. But I was just thinking about this earlier when we started recording the Patreon. I, we had a bunch of, we had a couple of false starts recording it. And the shift in tone between you and me talking to each other, to you announcing the show. But then like messing up and like basically saying like, oh, we need, we need to start over. We need to take that again. Your tone didn't shift from the introduction line to you saying, we need to start over the way that it did from you speaking to me before. So it's like, it's, it's, I realized that it's the difference between the way we used to record the show, I think, and the way we've gotten to recording the show is that when we're speaking on the mic and we know we're being recorded, we are not talking to each other. We're talking to the audience. Even though we are talking to each, it's like we're both talking to the audience but listening to each other and responding to what each other are saying. But we're, our focus and our direction and our energy level is all focused towards the audience. And I'm like, we just did that. Like we didn't realize, we just naturally started doing that. Like we realized the difference in, because I think maybe it's having guests is where it happened, where it like adding that third person to the conversation. And then once you take the guests away, we're so used to doing the show with a third person that there's like an imaginary third person is there that we're both talking to. I don't know. It's just something I noticed is that when we're talking on a recording, it doesn't feel as much like we're talking to each other. Are you saying like the old episodes and the one that we didn't do it that way? Yeah. I feel like, I feel like when we started, we were just like talking to each other. So we were talking like a normal conversation to each other, low energy. Yeah. And I didn't really like that one. Like, because it's unnatural for us to speak to each other as if we're radio hosts. I wonder if that would like say if we'd always had a third or like one of us had started it with another person, if that dynamic would have changed, like if it would have like gotten there quicker, but because it's you and me and the way we just talk to each other. And that's how maybe, maybe that's, I mean, I feel like it's podcasting one on one is to realize you're talking to an audience, at least you're supposed to. Yeah. So like that's the thing that I don't, I don't think, I mean, I definitely didn't know that. I feel like we, we together, I probably brought your energy level down being unprepared to. Well, I mean, very much as a show where I was, you're, it was just like, we're doing this. And you're like, I guess. Okay. You were down to do it, but it wasn't your idea. So I was kind of throwing you, I was revealing secrets of the pod a little bit on the last episode, because you don't, you don't listen. Oh, he's not here. I can talk shit. But I did. I mean, I'm, I'm saying it to your face now. But I would, I told Dave, I was like, you know, Dylan doesn't take notes for the show. He, as far as I know, until I do, I mean, sometimes, but like what, single digits times, right? Yeah. Probably. You don't, you don't research usually either before the show. You occasionally will too. It's another. Sometimes you do. And the other was like, I think you only listen to the records once most of the time. Yeah. Usually. I do it very close to recording the show, and I do tend to scam them in preparation to just be like, Oh, which songs were this moment and this moment and this moment, even sometimes while we're on the show, I'll like mute and be like, I know it. There's a part in a song. I need to figure out which song it is. But. Oh, yeah. It was, I would help if I would listen to the records twice and actually just make notes. But yeah, I wonder what the show, what, what it would sound like. Because Dave kind of like took over and was kind of like also host, like, like hosting hosting like, I hear some stats on the record. Like he just like took over and started saying stuff like that and like asking me questions about like, yeah, it was very funny. But when Dave, to be fair, when Dave does a Patreon sponsored episodes for us, he usually sends us a mini podcast to play in the show. So it's, I think that's just his personality. Now, when I've gone on other, well, when I've gone on Josh's podcast, what are the other ones you've done? That's the only other podcasts I've done. But the two times I've been on Josh's podcast, I have made notes. So I just know you're going to take notes. So what do I, we don't need that much content. Some episodes we do where I'm here for the vibes. Pure, pure vibes. I'm the long legs of movie reviews. I'm the long legs of movie reviews. I'm the long legs of movie reviews. Okay, so like I said, we did this, this band way back then. We did the Joy Ramon Christmas EP for one of our Christmas episodes. I covered Animal Boy on Dance of Days. So we've talked about the Ramon's. I talked about subterranean jungle on 100 and 100. And I'm sure we've hit some of their records on maybe like starting fives and certainly on, on char dads, we've talked about. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. We've talked around the Ramon's so much on the show that a lot of times it feels like we don't need to ever pick any of the other Ramon's records. Yeah. So, I mean, that was going to be my question. What made you choose this album instead of any of those other ones that you were considering? Well, there was a little bit of convenience. You asked me while I was traveling. So when you gave me the year and I was looking at it, I was like, oh, I already have Pleasant Dreams saved my phone to listen to you on this trip. So I was like, well, that's pretty easy. And I did have that, the GoGo's record as well. So that could have been one considered, but I figured the Ramon's one would make sense because I like it a lot. And I thought it would be interesting. And this was kind of your, I think your observation too was it would be interesting to do a later period Ramon's record or a middle period Ramon's record because we've done, we did the first one, right? Yeah. You know, stuff done. So we've done the first record and everybody knows the first four, you know? And it's always the, you know, the first four, it's like the black Sabbath. You can always, you can only trust the first four black Sabbath. Coincidentally, I listened to Sabbath volume four. Maybe I should say this for, I'll just do it here because I had listened to plenty of other stuff for I'm listening. I listened to Sabbath for on my trip as well. Kind of not great or kind of overrated. It's back loaded back loaded. That's a weird move. Yeah. Yeah. First side. It's just, there's no hits. It's okay. Like the first couple of songs are okay, but they're just not super memorable. And then changes fucking sucks. And then we'll super not ends the A side, which is so that kind of saves the A side, but, but it's like super not snow blind is you don't, until you get to the middle of the record, you don't get any of the like big stuff, cornucopia, St. Vitus dance, you know, it's all, it's all the B side mostly. It's weird. I don't know. It's an experience compared to the three before it is the Danzig four of black Sabbath records. Yeah, probably Danzig four is mostly just brought down because of what? It's slower and long, long, long, and it has sadistical, yeah, very bad song. Thanks. But yeah, you know, it's everybody knows the first four will certainly probably hit because the seventies are getting narrow and narrower to choose from. So there's a high chance we're going to hit the other three seventies, Ramone's record that some point on the show, I don't think there's any reason to avoid doing them. Yeah, we don't hit the seventies that often one, because like we've gone over so many of them and there's not a ton of records in that time period. And two, it's only like 77 to 79, so much smaller window. But nobody really, nobody really seems to have much reverence for the eighties Ramone's records. And it's there's reasons for it. I guess there's membership changes, there's production flaws. There's certainly like a drop in certain songwriting quality to an extent. It is still wild to me how much Joey and Johnny hated each other and are the only consistent members of their loans. From beginning to end, yeah, it's the two of them locked in a blood feud. I guess just the two of them so committed to that image and that name and that brand. They're just like, this is my career and I can work with an asshole. Yeah, it's just work. Yeah. Everybody else is just like, I'm too fucked up to deal with you too. So this was a choice of convenience coupled with it's an interesting take on their remotes. It's a different period of the Ramone's career and I think it's one that doesn't get a lot of light shed on it and doesn't get a lot of respect despite there being plenty of hits from their eighties catalog hits in lowercase terms, lowercase hits because for a band that was around as long as they were not commercially successful at all. Which plays it to a really big factor to this record. But yeah, yeah, I mean, I think the 80s stuff is criminally underrated when it comes to the Ramone's discography, like people are so obsessed with those first four records and it's like, almost all the 80s are good, not every song is great. But as an album, they're almost all good. I don't think there's like, you can only say like one or two or like actively bad records, I think, because I did Animal Boy, like I said before and I was like, I love that album. That album is so much fun and it's considered not a great album, you know, though. Yeah. I don't, I think the only one I haven't heard from the 80s is halfway to sanity, which probably is the lowest rated I have. And I remember liking it. So that, I mean, subterranean jungles, like one of the lower threes. Yeah. And I love that record. It's like one of my favorite Ramone's records, probably is my favorite outside of the, you know, the first four. Yeah. Well, let's get into a little bit of the backstory. There's a, there's a lot to this record. So we'll get into a little bit of some of the story. So to set the backstage, the group originally consisted of Joey, Johnny, Dee Dee and Tommy. They were all high school friends. They met in high school. They played together in different bands growing up. And then later, whenever they, they started the band, Dee Dee was going to be the original singer, but realized he couldn't play guitar and sing at the same time. So they had Joey take over singing, but at the time, Joey was the drummer. And then Joey figured out, I can't drum and sing at the same time. Joey, Joey Ramone, no Mikey Erg, I guess is what we're trying to say there. But, uh, very funny that the Erg's, the Ramone's core band, the drummer was the singer. And that was initially what the Ramones were doing too. I can definitely understand there could be like, Joey's OCD probably would have made that prohibitive as well. Yeah. So that if he, if he could focus on the one aspect of his performance, he could keep that probably closer to perfect, you know, yeah. And so that's where they brought in Tommy to play drums. So they debut in 1974 at CBGB's. Their first show is at CBGB's. Very funny. But CBGB's also then was a country bar more than anything, blues bar, and the punk scene was just starting to develop out of that club. They played 74 times their first year in CBGB's with an average set time of 17 minutes. Very short sets. They got spotted and then signed a sigh of records. They released their self title album in 1976, leave home and rocket to Russia, both released in 1977. And then Tommy gets tired of touring. He's like, I don't want to anymore. So he leaves the band as far as performing with them, but stayed on as their producer. Finally, I was reading about Tommy. He was originally the band's manager and they were auditioning drummers. But Tommy knew the songs on drums. And so Tommy was showing the people auditioning how to play the songs. And then they were like, Tommy, why don't you just beat the drummer? It's like, yeah, oh, I didn't think about that. So then he took over. Clearly, you know, he did not want to do this as his job. So he, yeah, he leaves by 78. So he's only in the band for four years as like an actual active member. Yeah. But his first day three records, yeah, he stays on as a producer though. So they bring in Mark Bell, who had previously played in the band Dust, which metal people love to say, that's the first, the first metal band, the same people who were like, death is the first punk bands, like death didn't even predate their emotions. What are you doing? Did they? Yeah, they didn't predate the Stooges, right? That's what it was. The proto punk band. Yeah. Cause they were like 71. It's like Stooges were 69. Yeah. If there's a first punk band, it's the Stooges, if there's a first punk band, it's MC5. I mean, honestly, cause the Stooges were just doing MC5. Yeah. But Mark was also in Wayne County, as well as Richard Hill and the Hoidoids. So Mark goes back with him. He knows them. He's been, he's been, been around the brothers of the, a lot during that time period. So they put out the record, "Road to Ruin" in 1978 with Marky, then they do rock and roll high school in '79 and then end of a century in 1980. And end of a century might be one of the most pivotal records in the band's discography. As far as their sound goes, you know, this is the record they did with Phil Specter, you know, introducing the wall sound thing and the production is just very odd for this record. Well, cause it's still specter. Yeah. It's Phil Specter. It's insane. I mean, it was mental torment to work with them is just like, yeah, it's the story. Dee Dee being held at gun's point and he gets, gets the song right. Like that was, yeah, he's just like waving his gun around all the time. It's like, yeah, of course, Phil Specter shots on one cause he was waving his gun around all the time. Yeah. Yeah. He used a fucking psychopath. Um, yeah, it, yeah, it was terrible to work with them. And then of course he's just like, you know, he's like domineering and like, it's gotta be this way. And it's like, these guys play like 20 minute sets. Yeah. They're just some New York kids, like, yeah. So with that record, they really do start to experiment with their sound because their records are not selling, right? They're selling fine. They're still fine enough than your, the sire wants to keep them, but they're, they don't have any hits. Like even, they just don't have any hits. The end of the century has like their biggest hit and it's like peaks at number 60 or something like that on the, on the singles chart. Like they just cannot get that commercial success. You know, they already made, they already got that punk cred, you know, they helped invent punk as a genre and it, you know, the subculture thing. They already had that lockdown and like these guys wanted to make commercially successful music. Like they all, that's what they always wanted. They were so heavily inspired by like 50s and 60s rock that they, they just wanted to be successful and make some pop big pop songs, you know. So into the century is them attempting to really get that commercial success. And the label is like also trying to get them some commercial success. Like we gotta get some, we gotta get something out of this. And that record's like a bomb. So I want to be sedated, didn't chart? No, that's a non charting song. They only have like one charting song, I think, and I think it's off of end of a century. I'm blanking on that one. I didn't take notes on end of a century though. But so pleasant dreams. The record, you know, end of century does not do well. And so they're like, all right, we're, we're still searching for that radio hit. You know, they're moving away from the punk sound. Johnny claims this is like the label's idea, Johnny's like the label wants to be more commercially successful. I'm happy with just writing rock songs. And he was like, they're chasing radio airplay. Yeah. And the band had initially wanted producers, Steve Lillywhite, to work on this album, who at this point had produced albums by YouTube, The Psychedelic Furs, Susie and the Banshee, XTC and Peter Gabriel. So like this guy was doing punk and punk adjacent albums. Yeah. He was doing those next steps of punk. Yeah. And the label did not want that. The label wanted a celebrity to produce the record, hoping that it would help sell records. So they go with Graham Gouldman of 10ccs, because apparently at that point, he was that he was very famous. 10ccs were that popular that Sire was like, we got to get the celebrity producer in here to do this record. It's very weird. Yeah. It was early 70s and they had tons of hits, they had radio hits. Yeah. It doesn't make sense stylistically, no, to get the 10cc guy, like it just, and he hadn't produced anything else except for 10cc records, like in like a handful of other like tiny things. Like he was not a known producer. He didn't have much experience producing anything outside of his own music. So it was just, it was just a celebrity. It's just like, we got a famous guy, you know, it's just, you find a, I'm trying to think if you did that now, like, yeah, we just hired, you know, well, he wrote, he wrote a lot of stuff too. He did. He did write for 10cc. He wrote stuff for the Yardbirds, the Holies, Herman's Hermits, like stuff that was hits. Yeah. Yeah. They wanted name recognition, um, which just doesn't make any sense, because he was really buying, right, like who's buying a record because it's produced by the guy from 10cc. Right. Like Phil Spector wasn't enough name recognition. Yeah. What is, you already had someone who was known for being a massively influential record producer. I mean, at this point, I guess the things that sell records is radio play. Like if you have a hit song on the radio, that will sell your album better. So I guess they were like, look, this guy can write songs. You know, maybe he can help them, but then he doesn't write any songs for the record. He didn't write any songs for this record. No, he did not. So yeah, it's just a very weird kind of choice by the label to work on this album. Yeah. She's the sensation, she's the sensation, she's the sensation, she's the sensation, she's the sensation, she's the sensation, she's the sensation, she's the sensation, I'm going now, I have lots of quotes from Johnny, because apparently Johnny talked about this record a lot and kind of touches on a lot of different things. But I guess as far as Graham Goldman's concerned, Johnny, even though he was very unhappy with this record, Johnny went into this record not wanting to like it. He decides like Graham would try and say, hey, play this on the guitar. And Johnny would just go, now you play it and just give him the guitar and you play it on the record. So that's why Graham Goldman has so many writing, has so many like, he's got a guitar credit on the album. Like, Johnny just didn't want to learn it and didn't want to play it. And but he's like, but he was really easy to work with. He was a gentleman. He said he changed a lot of the songs, but he would say stuff like, here's a nice chord for the bridge. You should be playing a minor chord instead of a major chord, stuff like that. He said, Goldman had ideas for vocal harmonies, guitar overdubs, and metalotic bass lines. And then yeah, if he suggested a guitar part, it had to sound like it came from Johnny or he wouldn't play it. So that's why he would write a part and then he'd be like, here Johnny play this and he's like, doesn't sound like I would play it. Yeah. So Johnny sounds like a pain in the ass to work with on this record. Yeah. Well, they're writing a record to the like, they're chasing this commercial success. And he does not want that. He is not trying to chase that. He's like, I want a commercial success because of what we do as a band, not because we tried to write a pop song. He's like, I don't want, he's like, I don't want to alienate fans, you know, the fans like us for doing this thing. And so yeah, he just, he had a very particular vision for the band and how he wanted to play the band. And if anything, but jut it up against that and he didn't want to do that, he literally just made somebody else do it for him. But Goulben said he also, he also revealed that there were certain tracks he plays the guitar on. I chose Johnny and he'd say, you play it, but I had a very, but I had to have a very restrictive nothing fancy at all. Like, so even the way he would have played it, he still had to like dumb it down for a trip. Yeah. Yeah. And there wasn't much work to do with the songs. He said, we changed arrangement slightly, but it was basic stuff. Like, let's put an end on this song rather than a fade. Let's double up on the chorus at the end. But then DeeDee says he's like, Graham really produced, like he put something into the album, some harmony ideas. So Graham is like, I didn't do much. I was just like, Hey, let's fade this up. You know, like small things. Yeah. Now maybe he's just kind of understating, you know, he's being humble and he's like, I didn't, I didn't do much for this record. You know, that kind of thing. They seem to think he did more than he did, but it's probably somewhere in between. He probably, for what he was used to doing, it probably wasn't much work. Yeah, right. Because it's not much work to say, let's double the chorus. Let's put an end. Yeah. Let's, you know, here's a, here's a guitar part. Like the guitar parts he's, he's coming up with, I'm sure he's sitting there, like listening to the songs and he just like picks up a guitar and he's like, well, you could do this. You know, just like pulls it out of the air and then like it then just makes sense to simplify it. I feel anything that he did, it seems like he was probably just doing it on the fly and in the moment and not something that he like would have like actually labored over. So from his perspective, it's not a lot. And then from their perspective, it's like, oh, he's coming up with vocal harmonies. It's like, well, because he just knows how to do harmonies on the spot. I don't know. Probably done a lot of them. He's not. He's not having to think that hard about it, but for them, they don't do them. Yeah. Yeah. So it all around, it seems like from a production standpoint, he wasn't bad for it. And musically, let's think of the production of this record. I think it sounds pretty good. Like, I don't think it sounds, I listen, I didn't get to do a full sandwich. I didn't get to listen to both albums on either end all the way through, but I did like sample maybe like the first half of each just kind of get a feel for like what they sounded like at that each time. I think the Phil Specter production is not good for that, for them at all. Like, there's great songs on the record, but the production is terrible for that album. Yeah. It doesn't work. It's wrong. In of a century is it's such a frustrating record because it should be because they're so inspired by the stuff that he produced that he's famous for producing. Like there's no Ramones without the Ronettes. You know, it absolutely should work, and then you listen to it and it doesn't. I did read an interview to the Johnny did because they did like reissues in the 2000s. And so he talked about the reissues of like the 80s records, which hadn't been done in a while. And so like they interviewed Johnny for all of them. And one of the things that he said about what the interviewer said about in a century was like, Phil Specter invented the wall of sound, but the Ramones already played the wall of sound. So what's the point in using him because they already were doing that, so you don't need him anymore. They're already at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's no that's the thing is to like a J. Oh, probably a big reason it doesn't work. It's like Johnny's guitar is so full and grainy and gainy. Like you can't, you can't stack those guitars up, at least not then, you know, people would maybe double track, but if you're, you're playing these full like Marshall tones, like you just, they don't stack very well. You really need to have the variety of amps and different guitars. That's where you get into like the nineties, where people are like quad tracking everything. They're like changing guitars and changing amps and for all of the different tracks so that you fill in all these different areas. And if they're just doing what Phil Specter did was like, just play it exactly the same over top of it. What does that do? That's not doing anything. It's just making it harder to distinguish what the guitars are doing. And yeah, that whole, that end of a century record, like it, it's just such a, I don't even know, I wouldn't, I feel like it's not a slick, but it is slick. It's really weird and it's really hard to describe what is wrong with the way it sounds, but it just doesn't sound right. Yeah. This record, the production does sound pretty polished, I would say. It does sound good. And there were a lot of reviews at the time that we're talking about how it, the production on this record takes the punk edge away. Like it's not as punky and not as edgy and greedy anymore. And I'd agree with the songs, maybe like, I'd say that's more on the songwriting though. Like I don't think that the less edgy songs on the record are less edgy because of the production, they're less edgy because of how they wrote the song, like they were writing pop songs instead of punk songs for the most part. And they have songs like that on every record before it, other than like the first record. So I think it's just, maybe there's just a higher percentage of that type of song on this record. And maybe that's why it feels like they're going more in that direction. I mean, I guess like the harder songs, like the harder songs on this record, the guitars are probably a little less upfront. They're probably mixed. They feel a little more like they're mixed towards the background and there's definitely more reverb on the drums and vocals really all over the record. So the harder songs do feel a little bit softer than they don't have that in your face, gritty punk element that the records before it have. But at the end of the century has the same problem. Yeah. So listening to the record, any of the songs that I was like, this feels like a classic Ramon song. Like I would get that feeling from all quite on the on the Eastern front that has that to it. You sound like you're sick has that classic Ramon's feel to it. You didn't mean anything to me. Come on now, sitting in my room, like all those songs, I was like, these feel like kind of older, like the older Ramon's records at the first four records, and I was looking at songs and they're all the Dee Dee songs. I was like, Oh, Dee Dee's the one who drives that Ramon's sound because this is the first record that they are crediting the songs to the songwriters and not just Ramon's or the whole song. Yeah. Which there are no Johnny writing credits on the sound meter. Yeah. No Johnny writing credits and Dee Dee writing credits. Those would be your Ramon Z classic Ramon songs. Yeah, it's funny that Johnny doesn't write anything for the record, chose up, doesn't even want to play anything. This is a Dee Dee Joey record. Yeah. It is. Joey feels like he's experimenting the most on this record. He's like, I'm going full pop on a lot of these songs. Though to be fair, and KKK took my baby away is a Joey song and that is straight up just Ramon's classic Ramon's. Yeah. So, yeah. So it is weird. Johnny is like, man, I don't want to do, I don't want to do a pop record. I'm not even going to play it. I'm not even going to write any songs for the record. It's just this weird. He didn't like that they weren't writing as a band either. He didn't like that everybody was taking individual credits. But the reason that they're doing that is because Joey said on the end of the century, he was writing most of the songs and he was mad that the whole band was getting the credit for it. So he wanted the credit. He wanted songwriting credits for what was his instead of just being like, it's Ramon's. And he's like, but I'm doing more of the work when I'm doing writing. I'm doing all the work. Which I have very mixed feelings on writing credits on albums, I think crediting the whole band. I don't know. It's tough. Sometimes it is where it's like, just one guy wrote the song, like the whole thing. I don't think it's, I mean, we've just seen what happens when people fall out and then you have to figure out who gets credit and who gets paid. I don't think it's a good idea to just credit the band unless you are genuinely writing the songs in like what I would call like metal core band, hardcore band fashion, where it's like, I'll go to roof and then I can do this. And then I go to cat, you know, like where you just, you are collectively sitting there and like jamming out a song unless you're writing now, if you are writing chords and melodies and bringing that to the band, then you have a, that's the songwriter and the songwriter should be credited individually, just because it's just going to save you a hassle. But it does create another band dynamic that you have to like try to be professional about because certainly bands have broken up and people have been kicked out of the bands because of he's getting too many writing credits. Yeah. You know, so it's, yeah, it's true. It's only you have one songwriter and if you have a bunch of songwriters, they need to be. It is a, it is a mixed bag. I feel like DIY punk bands just called, you know, everybody gets a punk, everybody, the band gets the credit, you know, it's just because it's whatever. But then it becomes like major label stuff. You get points on songwriting, you get points on playing. So like some people are, if you're in the same band, some people are literally getting more money from the record because they wrote more songs and they played the songs. So they get a performance pay and they get a writing pay. It's just like a weird, yeah, that's where it gets real messy as a major is getting money gets involved in these. You have to figure out, you know, you have to delineate like who gets writing credits for like coming up with one small idea that then gets featured. Which I mean, with the way, you know, with the way songwriting copyright lawsuits are going, like, yeah, you can definitely get a copyright or a writing credit or whatever for a beat. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. It's almost like just give everybody a credit and then nobody gets a piece of it. Yeah. I mean, you have to do that for literally every session person who plays on the record. Yeah. Because it's like, unless they're reading off of sheet music, you know, if they're sitting down and coming up with a part, then they're writing. So this record, a little bit marred with some substance abuse issues. Dee Dee is very much in the throws and the thick of his drug addiction at this time period. I mean, he's contributing a lot to the record though. Like he writes half the album. So it's not hindering him so much, but he might, it might have, I didn't read a ton about what was going on with him in the studio as far as like how difficult it was to work with. It feels like it would have been difficult. It's probably difficult to work with everyone on this record, but it's a Dee Dee's part. Yeah. I don't know. But also, Marky and Joey are both like, Oh, we're drinking too much. Like this is the beginning of them like drinking a lot, like way too much. So that's also playing a factor into like a lot of the stress going into the recording of this album. But where into the century is like, all right, we're trying to do something different than our first four records. And this album is like a continuation of that. This record is probably the most important record for the band's dynamic going forward for the rest of their, their career. So this is the record that Joey's girlfriend Linda left him for Johnny. Yeah. By like the, it was like close to the end of the recording session. She jumps to Johnny basically. It's always like, it's always written as like, Johnny stole his girlfriend from, it's like, well, she's a human being with decisions and she didn't, whatever it was about Joey. She didn't really want to be with him anymore and saw stuff in Johnny that she did want to be with. And for what it's worth, she stayed with him the rest of them. They got married and like she was with them the rest of, you know, Johnny's life. So. Yeah. Linda runs most of the Ramones stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Joey's brother does too. Yeah. He's got, yeah, he does a lot of the other stuff. His face. What's his name? Mickey Lee. Mickey Lee. Yeah. So it's kind of like between him and Linda, which it's funny. It's, it's Johnny and Joey's, you know, proxies. So like, yeah, that became a really, this, this, this is the end of them being, I don't know if they were even really ever friends before, but this basically, it probably squabbled over politics and because Johnny was a Republican, they probably squabbled over politics and like creative stuff before, but then going forward, it's just, they have personal. Joey, Joey was definitely mad at Johnny, Joey held a grudge about Linda leaving him. Joey held a grudge against them the rest of his life, basically. And he, it, it ruined their relationship. Johnny and Joey's relationship is, was irrevocably broken at this point. They basically stopped talking to each other, yet they stayed a band for another 15 years. It's like, you hate each other. So I don't even think that Johnny, like even a sailor, like hated Joey for it. But I guess that animosity just will only grow over time. But how did they stay together as a, as the two remaining permanent members of the Ramones for another 15 years, is it just a matter of we just don't talk to each other? That's how we make it work. It's like, well, that's not also working either, like I don't understand. We talk to each other only, only about the business. Yeah. And my guess it's very little of that too. It's more like if they have business talk, they're all there. And they're like, uh-huh. Yeah. Like that's probably a lot, probably a lot of. Will you tell Johnny that, will you tell Johnny to please pass the butter? No, it's probably a lot of the manager talking to each other, you know, to each of them separately. Yeah. So they said that Johnny like knew, like at the time, he was like, this is bad. Like, he's like, he knew how upset Joey was about the whole thing. And so basically Linda stops coming to shows. She doesn't come to shows anymore. If she does, she's like in the back, they keep her kind of hidden away from Joey. You know, it's just like out of sight, you know, he'll run out and see her and they don't, you know, go back and do the stuff. Like they, they just keep, they kept her away from Joey the entire time, which that's also got to be weird. Because there's got to be a point where you're just like, Joey, you have to get past this. Please get past this for your own sake, get past this. Yeah. It's a really weird thing. Like it certainly is understandable. I think it's very understandable that Joey would be upset. Mm hmm. Like, I think the idea, you know, we joke, like we said, like, you know, Linda's a person, she made her own decisions. You know, like it's not, it's not like Johnny went and kicked sand and Joey's face. And, you know, he, in carried away as girlfriend, like, it's not like that. But it is, it is weird and awkward if your friend dates your ex. Like that's most people feel that that's weird and awkward and uncomfortable. Like it just is certainly understandable and relatable that Joey would be upset at a certain point. He needs to let it go. But also it is Joey does have OCD, like, yeah, that is probably not something that's letting things go is not something that people with OCD are known for being able to do easily. So it can be a little prolonged. I can see that. But I think to some extent, the band going to those extra lengths to keep Linda out of Joey's sight probably enables Joey to hold onto that grudge and that's not good. And he should have been forced to confront it and work on it and get over it. Like by the time that they get married, he should probably have been like, all right, maybe kind of a meant to be situation, you know, like, yeah, Johnny probably should not have dated Joey's ex girlfriend, you know, like it's, it's not good for friendship. It's not good for interband dynamics. And Linda also maybe should have not immediately jumped to Johnny and yeah, she's that's not good for your husband's, you know, work politics and experiences there. So it's just like, I mean, what's this who's to say though, you know, she stayed with them. So like, you can't be like, she should have moved on, but like clearly they loved each other and it worked. The hard ones would have wants as far as I guess, you know, but yeah. And I mean, it's, it's a messy situation and it's weird and it's like, there's not like a strict set of rules that everyone must follow like it, you know, it's especially like when you're dealing with people with addictions and in a industry that doesn't really have ethical standards at all, you know, Fleetwood Mac records are praised for being about people cheating on each other. So yeah, with each other. They're with each other in the band, then they each cheated on people with other people in the band. And they pointedly sing songs at each other on their own records about their relationships. Yeah. So it's, yeah, you know, it's really ultimately everyone is to blame to some extent and, but I do think unfortunately the long term Joey comes out looking the worst in this that he held that grudge for the rest of your life. It's like, come on, get, you got to get over your ex-girlfriend. Yeah. Yeah. That's, you got to get over that. I know it's harder for you, but you got to eventually because you're working with the guy she's dating after that you knew before, you knew him before her. So it's another just like a weird, like, man, just messed up like Johnny probably shouldn't have pursued it. Linda shouldn't have pursued it because there's a, there's a part in it and there's a quote from Johnny. He says, had then, had Linda not left Joey for him, he wouldn't have even been talking about her and saying how much he loved her because he wouldn't have been obsessed about it. So like because it was him, it drove him even crazier than if it was just like a normal relationship ended. He probably would have gotten over it more normally, like after that. Yeah. She would have been out of sight out of mind. You know, if she had gone to someone else outside that he doesn't know, like, it's easy to cut ties. Like he's just never going to see her, you know, right? And now she's like tethered to never hear about her or never think about like, oh, I see the guy that is with her every day. Yeah. Yeah, it messes with you, I guess, but it's just wild. This is the breaking point of their like dynamic as a band though, to be fair, probably would have happened later anyway. Like it feels like it just would have eventually happened with their dynamics and personalities and everything. So there would have been something else that was the reason that they broke our relationship and band relationship. Yeah, it's just odd that they're the only two that like are there the whole time, never leaving. They're so committed to their emuls that it's just a job for them, I guess, after a certain point, you know, yeah. So okay, that's kind of all like the backstory is stuff. You know, the album, what does it do? It peaks at number 58 on the Billboard 200, not too bad, but no hits off this record. They also didn't release any singles in the US from this album. Sire, what are you doing? If you want to hit, you got to put some songs out. All the singles went out in Europe. You didn't even try with this one. It does it. And the singles they pick. We want the airwaves. Yeah, probably could have done something on American rock radio. Yeah, because it had a little bit of a similar thing going on with, do you remember rock and roll radio? Yeah, conceptually. And that song, I think, was one. No, Rockaway Beach was the one that charted. That was the charting song. But yeah, it could have done something. She's a sensation. Yeah, super catchy. Yeah, really catchy song. It fits their retro, you know, bubblegum pastiche thing, too, which at this time, we just talked about Joan Jett. Right. Retro pastiche is working in the mainstream. It's successful. Punks doing covers of British invasion and girl group songs. Yeah, that does well. I mean, the go goes. Yeah, it's very much are a surf girl group band for the 80s. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Sire botched it. Sire is the reason that there's no, there's no major Ramon hits. Like, I mean, I don't know, maybe if Bruce Springsteen had given, had actually given them Hungry Heart. Yeah, I mean, it worked for me. And if Johnny had actually let them use it, he didn't want it. I don't know. Well, it was Bruce wrote it. He was going to give it to the Ramon's. His manager was like, don't do that. You just gave away two songs that became hits for other people because he gave because the night to Petty Smith, or one hit, he gave fire to the pointer sisters. It was a hit for them. So he's like, I'm going to give away the song to the Ramon's. And he's like, the fuck you are. No, we're putting that out. That's, that's yours. That's going to be your hit. And it was like his first like major, like single hit. Born in the Born to Run was, you know, a big deal as an album, but you didn't have like a really successfully high charting. I think Hungry Heart hit like five probably, which he never hit a number one hit, but that was just because of Prince. I don't think it would have hit five with Ramon's though. It would have gone high though. I think it probably would have gone high. It probably could have been their highest charting single. Well, also because it would have been like known. Oh, this is the Springsteen song that he wrote with Ramon's like, because it that's what helped that, you know, helped the Patty Smith first song because it was like, Oh, but Bruce Springsteen wrote a song for Patty Smith. That's cool. Let's hear it. And then it becomes a hit. So yeah, being a Bruce song, it probably would have made it a hit for them. It probably would have been their highest hit. Yeah, I would have had it just would have given them that extra attention, which is yeah. So it's what Sire was looking for with why they picked the producers that they were wanting. They just got somebody who didn't actually have name recognition. I think about like, what would the Steve with Lily White version of this record have sounded like because the type of bands that he was working with the time are not the Ramon's album. Like he's doing like post punk records. Like he's doing goth records. He's doing the U2 record. Like, would he have pushed them in another in a different direction that they never went on in their own? Like, are we getting a post punk Ramon's album? Yeah, like lots of reverb be like plucked guitar parts instead of the all downstroke Johnny guitars. I don't know the things that Lily White would have wanted to do. Johnny would have also not wanted to do. But I guess there's like the possibility that you get like a psychedelic first sax kind of thing. You get a little more of the grit potentially that probably stays and and comes through. So I mean, talk, talk, talk. That was 81 to that's pretty slick record. It has pretty in pink. Yeah, it probably would have sounded more like the first album than than like the U2 or the it's not going to sound like a hit. You know, it's not going to sound like XDC because yeah, you need somebody playing XDC guitars. Yeah, it might have hit some of the like the harsher elements of like Juju maybe. But all those records where they haven't come is lots of reverb. So it might have been even like there's reverb on this album. But like, I think Steve Lee White would have made it even more reverb. Yeah, I'm not sure what the production changes would have been because you think about those bands, XDC, Susie, psychedelic first, they all have such unique personalities, sounds that go across all of their records. Yeah. You know, Susie had, I mean, well, certainly she had her voice, but which is not uncommon, you know, not dissimilar to Joey's voice. But the songwriting is much more minor and gothy with Susie and it's not with the Ramones. I wonder if Johnny would have written for him though. Yeah. I don't think that it would have got the I don't think it would have helped them with the commercial thing they were going for. I don't think Lily White's production is going to make them more maybe in the UK, maybe in the UK, but not in the States doesn't feel like his production because even you two at this point weren't big in the US yet. The first, it takes a minute, right? Like it takes a couple records because Pretty and Pink isn't a hit prior to the movie, right? Which is like much later. Yeah. So yeah, Lily White probably doesn't help. So I guess they were like between two producers, maybe we'll get a celebrity bump. So I get it. That being said, this is a really good album, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like we've talked so much about the story and the production and the label fuck up, but it's a good, it's a really good record. Like I, it's funny because people say the first four and as much as I have issues with the end of the century, it's a really good record. The songs are good. Great. Yeah. There's enough great material there. Pleasant dreams, subterranean jungle, too tough to go to die. Like I don't fully, well, it's just the production and there's just like the momentum of the first four Ramon's record where I see that there's a little slowdown two years before, you know, the century. But it's just, it's so easy to just say the next four two. Yeah, because they're all good. They're good. They're above average records, despite their flaws. And the thing is, there are flaws of on the first four Ramon's record. The record's kind of rough. A lot of the songs are really samey. Yeah. The rock road to ruin is probably the weakest of the four first four. And I might be tied with the first. Pleasant dreams is a very easy to listen to record. Oh, yeah. Nothing turns me off on it. There's no songs that I hate. There's enough songs that are not as easy to recall later, not as memorable ultimately, but there's tons of super memorable material on here. You want the airwaves? I'll quiet on the Eastern Front. KKK took my baby away. That's an old timer. A minor Ramon's it. You know, it's a for the rest of their career song that they play live. Yeah. When I guess when I say this record, they have hits, I guess I'm thinking like live hits. It's the songs that always went over well live. So they kept playing them. Yeah. The fan favorites. This record's got plenty of them. KKK. She's a sensation. Like, you know what? I love them. This record has songs that I'm like, I love this song. And I didn't really think like I've listened to this record before, but like I didn't think about like each of the tracks individually like as much as when I'd listened to it for the show. And I love it's not my place in the nine to five world. Yeah. It is such a different sounding song for this record too. It's like I read something that has a very kinks style song. Yeah. There's a there's a part in the song where I'm like, that's the ventures five o'clock world right there. Like there's a not ventures. The other V band. Yeah, it's the other V band. The Vogs. The Vogs. Yeah. It's like that is that song. Like it's like in the it's like a bridge after the chorus or something that's just like, oh, you're just straight up like took that part. It's very similar. But it's got an amazing chorus to it. Like the chorus on the song is phenomenal. I love this song. One of my favorites on the record, sitting in my room, sitting in my room, just like and that dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, guitar riff. Very British sounding like damn style guitar riff on that song. Love that one. 7/11 is fun. It's a really fun song that's like doing the what do they call those songs? Like the Shangri-La's leader of the pack like because the end of the song the girlfriend dies, you know, because of a car accident. Like it's that kind of song. Yeah. I mean, it's yeah, it's just like a they're not called murder ballads. Those are different like they have a name like death songs or something like that. You know, I mean, it's just what it just feels like a surf pop, surf girl group. It's all it's this kind of but they said it in like the 80s. Like they're at the 7/11 at this, you know, playing space invaders on the arcade, you know, the video arcade machine teenage tragedy songs. That's what those are those are called. You sound like you're sick is a really fun song. She's a sensations and all-timer. It's just like a classic song from the record. This whole record is good. And Joey has a wide kind of range of like vocal deliveries on this album too. Like he just does a lot with the melodies and stuff that he, you know, put into this record. Joey is one of those miraculous vocalists. Like a wide baritone, just a just a big range, super unique voice. Just it just sounds like Joey. Like there's no one else who sounds like him unless they're doing a Joey Ramon invitation. Like his accent comes through his singing. He's he's technical in a way that someone who is like self taught as he is shouldn't be. Just super smooth transition, you know, from low to high in his vocal range. And it's like, yeah, it's a lot of power. He can get gravelly. Yeah, just an incredible voice. It really is. And he just has it. Like, you know, it's just one of those voices. Like he just woke up with it, you know, he doesn't. And maybe he worked on it. Maybe he took lessons. I don't know. But he doesn't seem like it. Yeah, he sounds great on this record. Like, and I think he sounds great the whole time, the whole his whole career. He sounds great. His last records, the last Ramon's records, there was, you know, certainly like the last his health wasn't great at the very end. So there was a lot of stuff he just couldn't sing. What that's why there's so many. There's like CJ songs. And yeah, and so many of them on the last record. It is. Yeah, it was CJ, right? Yeah. Yeah, CJ took over for yeah, Dee Dee. Well, one of one of Dee Dee's replacements, because who's Markie's replacement? Is it Richie? Yeah, because they kick they kick Markie out for his drinking problem. Yeah, I think he sounds great on. I think that the production is different, but not. It's not as bad as the end of the centuries is. And I guess end of the century has that expectation versus reality that maybe skews the perception of the production. But this one works. It's certainly polished, but it works. It works for the songs. It allows for more variety, which at this point in their career, they honestly need. Yeah, they don't. And that's the thing. What I that's the thing that I don't understand about the first four albums only, that that long repeated like, and the critical, the critical reception of the records that they put out in the 80s, you know, at the time of it being odd to slick. Oh, they lost their edge. And like, they couldn't be, they couldn't be the CBGB punk band forever. Yeah, Joey wasn't writing those songs. Joey was writing kinks songs and Ronette's songs. Like he's doing other things. And Johnny's not writing anything. And eventually, Dee Dee's not writing anything. You know, eventually Dee Dee leaves. There's there was just only ever going to be so much gas in the tank for that sound. And I don't think that they should have stopped. I guess the idea is, well, they should have stopped if they didn't, if they couldn't continue to do that sound, they should have stopped rather than change as a band. I think that's bullshit. I think they should have changed as a band. I think they changed as people, not necessarily for the best, but they certainly aged. But if you look at the rest of the CBGB bands that played with them all the time, they all changed. None of them stayed the same thing they were in the very beginning, or they broke up, you know, as the case of like, they broke up within two years, you know, like Richard Hill, you know, over, you know, that kind of stuff. But when Blondie and talking heads and B-52s, like in cramps, like they all changed, even the cramps who were pretty much like sonically consistent throughout their career, they make big changes after like what the third or fourth album, more like top songwriting topics. And well, they didn't have a bass player, remember? They were right. They added a bass player. So like that even that is them changing too. It wasn't, it wasn't just boys and I recording the bass parts. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also the scene they came from was already in weird. Yeah. Honestly, it's kind of remarkable that they played CBGB so many times, considering what the scene was for them to be playing ultimately dumb rock in a scene with a bunch of Rhode Island art freaks. And Blondie, it's funny disco, because they all, they all seem to really respect their hormones. Like none of them, I've never heard any of them saying anything about their hormones. They have problems with each other. Like Patti Smith and Blondie like hate each other. I think even like Tina Wameth and Patti Smith have issues with each other too. Like, I don't think Blondie and talking heads have issues with each other. They seem fine, but the talking heads have issues with themselves. Patti never had a problem with Tom Verlaine. Yeah. They stayed friendly. Yeah. So nobody ever really seemed that, but also their moments were the first to get out of that scene. They were the first to, you know, sign with Sire and move on to something else. So nobody really hasn't. And they were also kind of like this like force of nature too. They just like come in whirlwind, short set leave, you know, I don't know how much they were hanging out with the individual members. But there's a track on the deluxe version of this record. It came off of like a soundtrack of some sort. I don't remember what movie it's from. And the backing vocals on that track are Debbie Harry, Kate Pearson, and Sandy Wilson. I was like, I didn't actually listen to it. I should listen to it to see what that song sounds like. But it's fun to see like the CBGB voices still like hanging out with their moms. Yeah, I think this is a very, I think it's underrated. Well, Debbie and Debbie and Joey state friends. Yeah, for the rest of his life. I think this is probably one of the more underrated records in their discography. Like I think even in this like this pocket we're in, like the extra like the next four run, it's probably not really talked about that often. Because it seems like maybe some of the subterranean general is probably like the truly most underrated out of those. Feels like people actively dislike that one. And it doesn't have a story really to go with it. Like it's just one of those and another one. But people think people like to tough to die more. Like that's a high that's like considered like their last high point as a band. But I do think Pleasant Dreams is underrated as far as like it's a really good record that should be talked about more. But I guess, you know, there's that first four records thing where everybody's, you know, always wants to talk about the first things a band did, which we do that too. You know, we're not immune from it. They're definitely bands we talk about where we only like the first couple records. But yeah, I mean, in a habit, you know, it's not to say that bands don't ever change for the worse. They do. Yeah, a lot. A lot of them, but plenty of them do. I just don't, I have felt for a long time that the assessment of their, I mean, honestly, the assessment of Black Sabbath, the only the first four is bullshit too, because the next four records are good too. Yeah. The Aussie period of Black Sabbath in general is enjoyable. It just gets more commercially metal later. And it doesn't have that unique Sabbath quality. That's what it is. I guess it's you lose if you shed some of that, I don't know what there's some percentage of of intrinsic quality that if you lose, people are going to go, ah, they lost it. It's just, I don't even think the Ramones really shed that much of it though. No, I think I guess the thing with the Ramones is even though they do change quite a bit within the century in this record, they don't change enough to the point where I think their their sound, I won't say sounds dated, but it feels a little bit more in the past than a lot of their contemporaries were doing at this time. And what just like the greater music scene is doing at the time, because when you think about this record in the comparison of what else is happening in like punk music specifically, like we're in, we're getting into like a really creative period of punk music, like damage has come out, the punch line has come out, like we're about to get like all SST in here, like so much different stuff is coming, you know? So yeah, I feel like they're, they don't stagnate, but they don't, they also don't change who they are. It's one of those cases of just like, they don't evolve so much outside of their sound that they stop sounding like the Ramones, like there's no like random ass weird X record in the Ramones' garbage. You know, like, yeah, I mean, there's, you know, your two most unique qualities, Johnny and Joey are there for the entire career, which is probably why I think there's good stuff on all of their records. There are, there's a worse period of Ramones. I think people are coming around on this period of Ramones a little more with time. I think people are getting actually giving these records to listen a little more with an open mind and not just repeating what they've been told that we've seen this so much. We just talked about seven seconds period of their career that people have just been saying forever. It's, oh, they sold out. Oh, they, and it's like, are you listening to the records? Because they're good. And it was funny because like when we did that seven seconds record, every single comment we got from anyone was like, I like this stuff a lot. Like people really do, when people came around on the, that era of that band. So I guess it's because we are far enough away from that initial like, oh, can't believe they changed like that, that feeling of betrayal that these people had. It's so far in the past that like now people like us who are like, when we're getting into the Ramones, they've put all their albums out. There's no more new Ramones records. They've been broken up for a long time. Yeah. And some of them dead, you know, so like, we get the whole... When did Johnny die? Johnny died no four. Yeah. So the two important Ramones members are dead by the time we got into the Ramones. Yeah. Yeah. Because Joey dies in a one DD dies in a two like two weeks after they go into the Hall of Fame. Then Johnny dies in a four Johnny had a cancer two. And then Tommy died in 2014. Yeah, another 10 years, but all the, all the replacement Ramones are still alive though. Yeah. And making careers off of being Ramones like very much just touring as Ramones. It's funny. They can't all tour together because they don't, they don't know them play. Some of them play the same things. So they can't do that. I mean, but I think it would be funny to be like, and where they're a placement Ramones, then they have like, I don't know who sings, you know. DJ. Yeah, cuz CJ is saying, it's just you now have two drummers. When CJ tours now, does he play Ramones songs that he didn't sing on, or does he only play the Ramones songs that he sang? I don't know. I mean, he has records. He has his own records. Yeah. He actually has a lot of music. Oh, he does. He does play... Does he play his songs, or does he probably? He plays Ramones songs. He plays blitzkrieg bop, teenage lobotomy, Judy is a punk. Glad to see go. Give me, give me shock treatment. Rockaway. He plays Ramones cover sets. So he's a, he's a Ramone covered band, except he actually played with them. Like, what the fuck? That's wild. CJ is married to Marki Ramones niece, Chesa Owl, and he has two children with her, or he was. Now he's married to a lawyer, Denise Barton. That is weird. CJ marrying Marki's niece, because we're in the band at the same time. When does Marki come back? Because Marki leaves and comes back. Yeah, Marki leaves in '83, comes back in '87. CJ joins in '89. So Richie's 83-87. And Richie does music. Elvis? What does he do? Clembirk? He's also from Blondie. So that doesn't really... He's got his own thing. I forgot that that's Clembirk. That is funny. He only drawn from in '87, too. So you get three drummers. But I mean, Marki probably plays guitars on his records and with the intruders, or whatever they're called. Yeah, that's funny. Well, anything else you want to say about the record? Oh, I don't know. I think it's cool. I think it's a really good record. I think it has a really interesting album cover, too. Yeah, yeah. It's a... They hated the album cover? That's apparently? Yeah. They had another cover. There's an alternate cover. I don't know what it looks like, though, what they initially pitched. I wonder if it's the same cover as the New York mix, because there's a... It came out last year, a record store day record called New York Mix. A Pleasant Dreams came out? Oh, yeah. But I don't know if that's the cover, though, you know? He said it's... When he was talking about those reissues, he's like, "I think it's in there somewhere." So in the... Maybe you need to look at the packaging for the Pleasant Dreams deluxe reissue. Album cover was by Guy Juke. Never looked at any of his part. I mean, it's more in that style. Let's give it a rating. What are you thinking? I think it's like a four and a half. Like, I love this record. I can easily reach for this one as often as the first four. Yeah, I give it... Yeah, four and a half seems fair. Yeah, four and a half. Maybe 4.25. But I think four and a half is really good. I think four and a half is good. It's pretty dynamic, too. There's enough dynamics to keep it different, because they had to. You can't do the same thing every single record. Yeah. Well, I think that will do it for us then. So thank you all so, so much for listening. And you can follow us on all forms of social media, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, @punkglotopod. Voice of Line 2002688-Punk, and our email address is punkglotopod@gmail.com. But yeah, I think that will do it for us. So thank you all so much, and we will talk to you next time. delivery is available. Remember this special offer is not sold in stores.
Dylan is back this week, and he was assigned the year 1981 to choose an album from. He selected the Ramones 6th album, Pleasant Dreams. This was during the band's attempt to go commercial. Did they succeed?
