The FAN Morning Show

Jays Deadline Plans and "Running it Back"

The final hour of The FAN Morning Show today starts with Brent Gunning & Daniele Franceschi discussing the common theme with Toronto teams and “running it back” after down seasons and believing in the “cores”. They look at which out of the major three (Leafs, Raptors & Blue Jays) seems to frustrate them the most. B&D then settle on the Jays and delve into what “running it back” next year means and could look like. They enlist the help of Sportsnet baseball insider & Jays reporter Ben Nicholson-Smith for his thoughts (8:13). The co-host of At The Letters tells the morning duo what he’s been led to believe the Jays & GM Ross Atkins’ main objectives are at the quickly approaching trade deadline, what it means and how “competing” in 2025 is at all viable. Brent & Daniele close the hour diving into some implications from the dispute between the CRA and John Tavares over his bonus money; how it could possibly affect athletes moving forward who want to play in Toronto and other Canadian cities (30:14).

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Duration:: 48m
Broadcast on:: 24 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

of Jeff pass and who I think I think almost like cause Kevin bark it out of heart attack and generally speaking when you tell him something shocking he gets a little angry so good thing for passing that hit was remote because mark did not like the sound of run it back much like none of us do in this market I was looking into this process market I was looking into this I wasn't sure if the city of Toronto had an official motto they do we do I should say diversity our strength false wrong that is true not saying that's wrong but the city's official motto is run it back we do it with mayors we do it with premiers we do prime ministers we do with city councillors there's going to be a forward elected in war two or whatever one it is in the city until the day all of us die and we love love love love love love love love doing it with our sports teams the beliefs were at the forefront of this they say guys I am the big brother of this sporting market you follow me and despite literally nothing other than consistent post season which is a lot more than the other teams in this market can say we have nothing to show for this era but we will not change we can and we will we will run it back the gm was going to stay he fired himself and then he got fired for real but now there's finally change and even the change that came everybody's still here there's just the one guy left everybody's still here and there's no change they're running it back yeah okay then the Raptors now in their defence now let's not make defences for them they they want a title that is their only defence that well yeah that's a pretty big one especially here when you got to go back to sorry or go sorry to see you got to go back to ninety three to feel it okay I think they pivoted right so they say well guys we're champions well obviously nobody's gonna run it back we're no one can touch us and they they kept running it back until everyone ran away exactly called our regard I mean they shipped a rose it out but a block of gasol just said I'm good damn fleet I had a no be again yeah I know but they basically ran it back until everyone's like you know what I'm looking for greener pastures here tell their hand was forced and now the blue J's seem to be the latest iteration of the run it back Kings I just want to start there with the level of frustration the blue J's obviously are the most right now because we're in it right now these conversations have largely kind of stopped everyone did their complaining around July 1st then we waited a couple more weeks because hey maybe there's another domino to fall we did more complaining then and now this is the team and I'll complain about it more in the next block so don't go away there will be leave complaining today yeah but the J's are the ones wearing it the most now just in terms of the three of those teams power rankings of most frustrating run it backs what's the order for you again you know your preference is everything for sure so for me it's the blue J's number one second will be the Raptors third will be the Leafs but it's for different reasons because I know for you that might you know it might resonate differently I'm not the biggest hand up biggest hockey what I was gonna what I was gonna say about that is it's just I think I think to me it's not even the level of care because yeah I'm just like hand up going off what bothers me the most it's always gonna be the Leafs the least issue could be a one out of ten and it's going to aggrieve me the most even if there's ten out of ten issues going on with the other teams so for sure but I also think it's just the complete lack of success that's there and the length of time that it's been going on it's the one going on the longest so that's why I would have it at the top for me but yes okay so if I remove any if I remove remove my personal biases that's my list with my personal biases my my preference in terms of how I consume sports and one of my hierarchy is if I remove my personal biases here's how I would power rank it I'd go Leafs one Raptors to Blue Jays three okay Leafs one because you already made the point it's been going on for so long yeah we've been through this cycle before but also what's really frustrating and irritating about it is you think they can might be able to actually do it well that's the thing with the Leafs right that's the most frustrating part for all the pieces if we just power rank the pieces of where they're on their sports and we got to remove Kawhi Leonard from this because he removed himself he's not a part of this anymore so that's fine the Leafs have the best pieces as well like yeah again it's funny Ben and I got into and I realized I'm dragging the conversation away from the question I asked you but we're here Ben and I got into this thing of you know the Leafs and the Raptors have they been equally dispersed sorry the Leafs and the Jays have they been equally disappointing have they not and the point I make about the Leafs is say what you will about the Jays the Leafs have just done also nothing but a little bit more of nothing like Vladi was almost an MVP Matthews actually was the MVP Vladi won a home run Derby Matthews won the rocket Richard trophy multiple times the Blue Jays made the playoffs the Leafs one time one time one around no he has say they've won playoff games that this is well that's where the start is a little unfair but they actually had it they've done it they've won games the Jays would have killed who have been in a game three of one of these World Card Series as well of course they've been to how many of those deciding games the Leafs too many it's just it's like the England and and Toronto Maple Leafs parallel right I made this point with you a few weeks ago about that shake and shirt but at the same token at least England played in a final this is true you can't point at that if you're a Leaf fan or anybody else so yeah but I put them there for those reasons but I think the biggest of it all of them all is because it's it's that if you sort of squint hard enough focus hard enough you see a pathway for them with a lot of those pieces of actually paying it off with a championship it's hard to say that for the other teams in the city right it's difficult to sit there and say I look at what the rap a the Raptors I felt were that I mean I'm infinitely I was infinitely infinitely frustrated by them because it was it was all born out of stubbornness right yeah not that you were thinking man but if we just get it right they can win it all no it's like what was the ceiling for that team what Eastern Conference finals yeah that's the ceiling great good for you but it's not the ultimate prize so it was all born out of that all I'll born out of for a stubbornness and then with the Blue Jays I think because it's a little bit more fresh if this continued like let's say we go down the path of it becoming a Blue Jays S scenario where we're talking about three years from now Ross acting still in charge and these they're trying to build around these core pieces imagine that then I think we would be able to say okay guys in office enough we can't tolerate 162 of these every year where you're trying to sell us the same bill of damage goods please stop and do something so yeah you know the unbiased opinion Leafs Raptors Blue Jays that's interesting I think I think you pull you know three different people you got three different answers it's they're because there's a lot of different ways to look at it now we talked about this a little already the idea of their being or run it back here for the for the Blue Jays and you know run it backs can mean different things to different people I think some people look at it is well it's only a run it back if literally everybody is here you know would we say the Leafs ran it back if they traded Mitch Marner I don't think we would know we would look at that as a pretty key departure for sure and I think for people if there is a Boboshette trade made this winter you can't really sit here and say they ran it back but I also think that that goes to the questions of who is going to be at the helm of of all this thing I mean part of it is we'll see the the activity between now and the deadline and that'll be somewhat informative but I think so many of the bigger questions that are coming for this team aren't deadline questions they're there after the deadline I think that's why we're kind of in this point this insider's brought to bed on Valley North Lexus where you could expect excellence online and in the show room visit donvalleynorthlexus.com very very pleased to be joined by Ben Nicholson Smith sports net MLB insider and Blue Jays reporter as well as co-host of the apple letters pod Benny thanks for joining us this morning how are you doing I'm doing well I was up actually pretty early so I'm very alert this morning how are you guys little little run I feel like you're you're a you're a lean guy I feel like there's some running involved in your life is that what was happening where you like jog in this morning then you know what I actually I do love running and I tell I tend to get I tend to get out there today but uh no running yet for me that's for sure okay saving it for the sweltering heat look at you hero uh okay so blue jays at the deadline there's been a lot of talk from the passions of the world of okay forget the deadline for now we might not be looking at many changes this off season in terms of running it back you know that has become such a dirty phrase in this town we were just talking about it the Leafs have had their dalliances with it the raptors have what do you make of this and you know there's there's constantly swirling narratives around teams at this time of year so maybe maybe that's the answer right there but what do you make about the narrative that's at least being you know floated a little bit in some baseball circles that yeah this isn't the uh the death march for Ross Atkins that maybe it appears to be well yeah I mean I'm not going to really comment on other people's narratives but I think that just as far as what's next for the Blue Jays they have a lot of decisions to make and as far as I understand it those decisions have not yet been made so they have uh deadline here where they're obviously going to sell and they're going to make multiple trades within the next week at least we'll see what kind of scale of of deals they make but they're going to be very active they're going to be selling they will trade players and then beyond that they're going to have a period of time toward the end of the season where it's part try out camp part makes sense of what you have part assess how everything's working behind the scenes and then there will be a decision made this off season as far as what's next so yeah this Blue Jays team is really at a crossroads they need to figure out I mean for 2024 the die has been cast they are not a good team they are not contending they will sell and then beyond that they have some real big decisions to make and again my understanding is those decisions have not yet been made yeah been before we dive into some of the big picture sort of looming questions and and some of the key figures involved here I did want to ask as it pertains to what were we might see transpire over the next six days how important do you think it is that the jays or how let me rephrase that how much emphasis do you think the jays are placing on trying to mitigate their salary their payroll right now to get under the CBT like is that a consideration for them here because obviously this would be I think what is a year two been correct me if I'm wrong that they would maybe tap into that into that threshold so like is that a consideration here as part of the process when trying to figure out who to unload and where that relief comes from in over the next six days my understanding is that the Blue Jays are using this deadline to restock their system with prospects and that the focus for them is to acquire young players um whether they're in the major leagues whether they're in in the minor leagues young players who can help them for the long term if in the course of that process they end up you know unloading some salary and they get close to um ducking under the the CBT which would reset their tax penalties for future seasons mmm great that would be a bonus any responsible for our office will have an eye on that they will have an awareness of that and if they can do it so much the better but my understanding is that the driving force here is trying to improve the team's long-term chances by adding as many prospects and if that means that they kick back money and send money in a crate they get a better prospect that is something the Blue Jays can do so mine that's that's how I see it okay that is an interesting consideration that's not something that had crossed my mind per se in terms of the willingness to maybe even kick in some extra money to try and increase the prospect capital or the caliber of the product prospect you're getting back speaking of that well hold on let me jump in here just that changed the type of player that could be that's where I was going yes Kevin Gottman is the first name I immediately go to there with the guy who that player would obviously be appealing to playoff teams but I can also look at them saying mmm the guy we've seen this year doesn't match up with what's owed beyond him is he kind of the poster child for for that school of of thinking then I think the poster child for that school of thinking would more so be Kevin Kiermeyer or Justin Turner because as we saw with term with Kiermeyer clearly teams don't value him at his full salary that's why he cleared waivers now he's still available in trade and I've heard from people who say expect Kevin Kiermeyer to be traded by this time next week so that's very much a possibility but in that scenario the Blue Jays are picking up money so that's how I see it is the most likely as for Gottman as for Bassett those players have value but the Blue Jays as I understand it want to keep the door open to contending next year again I haven't made the final decision but they want to keep that door open to contending so that means that Gottman Bassett both Ladd Barrios those guys are going to be hard to obtain according to the sources that I've talked to those players are going to be really really difficult to get because the Blue Jays don't want at this point in time they don't want to cross off 2025 Ben when we talk about the caliber of prospects that they may be able to get in return from a developmental standpoint in terms of the the curve that those players are on do you think they have a preference in terms of maybe they want players that are closer to stepping foot on a major league field compared to guys that are even if it's a somebody that is of a higher pedigree that might be still further away like how much of that the timelines and how it all aligns with sort of the vision the direction going forward how does that all factor into the types of players that they might be sort of checking in on here when it comes to identifying the prospect capital they can potentially yield in return for some of these expiring assets that they're shopping yeah I think it's a great question and my understanding is that the Blue Jays will prioritize talent over proximity so you look back at let's say j-hat they get uh Brandon Drury and Billy McKinney guys who are close to the major leagues but ultimately you didn't have a lot of impact in the major sprinter jury had a couple good seasons after you left the Blue Jays but we're not talking about real impacts there that is not the kind of trade that the Blue Jays are going to be in a rush to make I think that if they can get someone who's an 18-year-old at class A but who is a top 100 prospect they will make that trade I'm not saying they can do that because getting any kind of top 100 prospect is difficult to do but my expectation is that they will prioritize talent first overall potential impact first and then as a tiebreaker if you had two players who are exactly the same as far as your overall kind of prospect pedigree then I think they would take the player who's close sort of the majors but first and foremost I think it would be their potential upside yeah and I think I think that'd be encouraging for people to hear I mean I know it's funny like I don't I personally don't get bogged down into the baseball draft and arguments surrounding it but I hear this every time it's like I take a lot of college arms versus the idea of a high upside bat and obviously college baseball a little different than it that it was just a few years ago and you know Paul Skeens got of the poster child there not that anyone expects these kids to be that somebody else I wanted to talk to you about was somebody who I think regardless of how this season was going to go was seen as a place of optimism or at least something that could be new and different and change the ceiling of this organ it's gone the exact opposite way Ricky Tiedemann do we have an update on him in terms of where he's at and just and you know looking at the tenor of the season it really does feel like he wouldn't have come up here and change the world and set the world on fire I mean I don't want to put a ceiling on what he could have done but that in and of itself would have just been another hey this is a bright sign for the future and even he has been a non-factor this year just because of all the injuries do we do we have an update on on Tiedemann and what's maybe expected of him the rest of the year yeah no formal update he's in a rest period right now he had a second uh consultation with medical professionals to take a look at his forearm elbow area so he's not pitching right now um I haven't heard anyone say that he has any kind of structural damage so my understanding as of now is that he is in a rest period and you know with obviously a hope to to getting back on amount at some point this season so we'll see if that can happen um maybe that means late in the year maybe that means arizona fall league it's been a really tough year for his development and it's one of many prospects along with you know araldas martinez the name one um who just haven't taken the steps forward that the blue jays would have hoped this season ben when we get to six oh one p.m. on tuesday what is the tone that rossackens the gm and well actually i'll point it to ross more soap when ross steps in front of a microphone and it'll be probably you know a little bit later than six oh one p.m. on tuesday but whenever he steps in front of a microphone and has to address you guys the assembled media speaking of course more broadly to the fan base what is the tone that they need to strike when it comes to the execution of this deadline like what is the messaging need to be from him from as an extension of the organization when he sits there on tuesday to reflect back on the business that they have completed over the course of these next six next next six days that's another good question i think that to some extent it depends on what they're able to do and what the scale of the moves is i think that generally speaking it's a good idea just to be honest and authentic about what they've been able to do so if they are if they pull off a huge scale you know series of trade that tone is going to be different than if they trade only jimmy garcia and you say kikuchi which is kind of the baseline those guys will be traded that is going to happen um and then the question is how much they do be on that i think you know where Atkins when it comes to his public comments has miss uh spoken before has been to talk about players as far as being assets so obviously he shouldn't say the years of control comment that he did uh it's a few years ago i personally have got a lot of mileage out of that one so i thank you for it personally well exactly but i would say that it's not the tone to take nor is it the tone to take and and say you know as he's talked talked in the past about guys like Derek Fisher and Socrates prito who under you know i get it you're gm you're excited about the player you just acquired but probably you know to take a tone of of some humility and to say hey you know what we don't know what's going to happen here we had to try to take advantage of this opportunity for the organization we believe in these guys we obviously don't know what's going to happen we know we need to get better we know there are more moves that we need to make um just to take a tone of acknowledging that the fan base has had a has had a tough stretch in a tough season um but it's a tough one right like to be honest with you i i don't know that there is something that Ross Atkins can say to the fan base at a point that's going to make the fan base happy and that's part of the reality that's part of why he is you know compensated to do the job that he does right it's a tough job um this is this is a fan base to understandably is not going to be easily appeased so i actually don't think that there's any magic word that he can say to make the fan base happy you could do like the the john Schneider you could like mix mixing a cuss to show he's really mad but i i think that probably not uh of of his ilk this is a weird way to phrase it but i can't help but thinking about it and having this conversation obviously the thing he is most going to be judged on at the end of the season when everybody has exit interviews is okay well what's the team look like and how good a job did you do putting it together but how much is this a part of the question that's going to be asked of him of how do you do at the inevitable press conference that will come where you get to either hold up all your shiny new bobbles or say why we held on to x y or z again not the not the pending guys but your gosman's basses how much of this is part of the again i don't want to phrase it as a job interview because he has the job but part of the performance evaluation yeah it's it's an interesting thing and you know i think there's maybe a tendency in in um our circles meaning media circles to kind of you know talk past rasak and says if he's not even the gm anymore and here's the gm and he's under contract for 2025 in 2026 and you know whatever opinions people have about that and there's obviously the bait to be had and and you know we can we can do that but he is the gm so he's not interviewing for this job he is the gm and so i don't want to i like i don't know i i there's obviously speculation amongst the fan base there is speculation in the industry as well and and that's that's a real thing but but yeah he is the gm so um that's one thing to sort of keep in mind and that's as well you know what's interesting ben and and thinking about um you know when we've had these conversations now for the better part of a week and a half or so um the the idea and and this is everybody across the board there's this insinuation there's the j's of signals that that they are going to try and be competitive again next year that is the goal that is the objective and that has led to questions of like well is that even feasible but i think bigger picture you know for me the the one thing that i think it was it was passed and we just talked about it just passed and mentioned this yesterday the quote-unquote and and Toronto's known for this running it back right like i i don't you know this is where i struggle like when they talk about being competitive next year does that necessarily equate to running it back because i don't know that that's necessarily the case in fact the way i interpret it is if you are going to be competitive if that is something you are genuinely going to strive for then you're probably going to have to be in a position where the team looks decidedly different in a lot of areas so i don't know that it necessarily equates to just resulting in the same sort of core nuanced group here that is going to roll out for 2025 and you're just suddenly going to hope they're better at least that's how i interpret it do you think i'm onto something there that it doesn't necessarily the idea of being competitive doesn't necessarily equal um just running it back with a lot of the same pieces well let me let me um offer sort of the latest information that i have based on the conversations that i've had with um with people in the industry including people with the blue jays in the last little bit so my understanding is that the blue jays so for starters they're selling they are they're selling they will make trades it's it's kakuchi it's garcia and maybe it's more it's probably it's very unlikely to be flat, bacic, gosman those guys you would have to overwhelm the blue jays to get them then um for 2025 they want to keep the door open to being competitive they don't want to sit here on july 30th or whatever today is july 23rd 24th and say that 2025 is definitively a rebuild year they don't want to sit here right now and say we are definitely not competing in 2025 however they will use the last two months of the season to see what they get in trades to see how players perform young players like Spencer Horowitz prospects like rickety demand that we just mentioned how healthy they're pitching is how guys like burios bounce back all of that gives them new information and they will use that information and then at the end of the season they're going to look at things and say all right where are we are we going to use this opportunity that we kept open and compete in 2025 or you know what is it time to take a look and decide that it's time to reset so you know i don't see a deep tank at any point in the future no one's ever suggested that that's going to happen here but could they do a reset this off-season could they do a retool this off-season where they trade bow and they trade basset and they trade chad green and they sign a couple free agents in backfill and see what happens yeah like that that's on the table and that that has not been taken off the table no and uh i you know you can understand why right like the frustration is palpable and everybody gets it but you can also understand like the idea of going scorched earth that it rarely it rarely leads to the success you want there's usually a pivot within there but it definitely never happens uh quickly so careful what you wish for people uh ben love the uh chat i have a feeling we'll do this at least once more for the deadline so i'll talk to you then sounds good guys thanks so much there he goes ben nickelson smith uh he was our insider that insider brought to you by don valley north lexus where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom visit don valley north lexus dot-com let you know blue j's baseball tonight on sports then sports net 590 the fan trying to continue in their series with the rays zak fen yurio rodriga's first pitch at roger center scheduled for 707 blue j central starts up at 630 on the tv side and you can listen to j's talk with blare and barker after the game right here on sports net 590 the fan yeah you hear it from bn s there it's understandable i think that this is going to ultimately prove to be a pretty frustrating deadline for the blue j's where everyone understands what's going to happen it's going to be the guys kakuchi it's going to be garcia they're going to be gone and then beyond that i think it's probably going to be a lot of nothing to be perfectly honest i think people would like there to be some move of some direction one way or another but the same time to buy obviously and given what you've seen out of the guys you'd be looking to sell with control i don't know that that was the time either i think ultimately and tell me if you've heard this lately in toronto sports it's going to be a pretty frustrating deadline think kind of raptors deadline if yours was yeah we're gonna stand have the gm stand up there and talk about patience because that's that was a staple of well the good say say what you will about rosakans and i i am somebody who says hey messiah's allowed to be as arrogant as he wants but i don't think we'll be seeing that tacked from rosakans of hey buddy i could do this anytime i want it could have been six months ago i'll make them six months from now why you asking so many questions well i don't think we're going to see that he will actually frankly have to probably answer questions of that ilk when it comes to uh you know next tuesday at six oh one when chris bassett kevin gozmann among others are still on the roster and the question is inevitably going to be posed why didn't you do it and then it's probably going to be something to the effect of well we have control so that gives us time and we didn't like the offers that came in that's pretty much what you're going to hear i don't know that's going to be is it going to underwhelming the sense that they're not going to make the big splashy trade of one of those marquee names going out the door with prospects of note coming in probably but do i think it's like it's going to be infinitely frustrating no because i i also think there's an element of realism here there's an element of predictability when it comes to this team and that's what we we've gotten to that point it's gone to that point with them it's not the frustration that people are expecting a huge hall coming back i think this is going to be the frustration though is when it's kakuchi and it's the you know some guy who's not on the top hundred prospect list and he's the six best prospect in some teams org because that's how the jays value them and if you know but i i know i think that the super locked in people yes they are going to look at that and go okay that's better what do they work but i think that most people hear the talk of resetting the farm system and they're going to have a hard time squaring that with getting somebody six best prospect that's a middle infielder or whatever it ends up being and again i don't judge the jays for that being the price that they're ultimately going to get one that's what those guys are worth and two it is the nature of baseball prospects that all of these guys are mystery boxes guess what they're going to trade for some guy and you know what i'm going to do i'm going to pull up keith law or i'm going to pull up you know the force of the SBN or benn's law on the right all this and that's the other thing is i think we just have nothing to go off and there's not going to be an impressive number you're not getting some teams best prospect no no chance you're not getting a top hundred guy no you're probably based on what i'm hearing from benn not getting a guy because they're going to prioritize the better player in the long run than the guy you're probably not going to get a guy that you go well hey we'll see is at least this quad A starter you've been waiting for you're probably not going to get that either and i think you add all those things together leads to a frustrating potential deadline and it shouldn't feel that way but i think that's where people are going to ultimately ultimately land where have i landed on the Leafs and where's the NHL landed in terms of caring about Canada dan robs an excellent piece in the athletic in terms of the breakdown how much tax flights are hurting Canadian teams and why doesn't the NHL care i'll get into all that and more one segment left a fair morning show sports net five nine of the fan hey it's ailish for a far and i'm just in cussford join us as we discuss the most important sports stories of the day and tee up the biggest games of the night it's the fan pregame six p.m. weekdays on sports that sports at five ninety the fan and wherever you get your podcasts i don't know about you guys break on a cat i've done you only for a chance to hear in your final segment of fan morning show for today i shouldn't like we'll be back tomorrow well not you i'll be here chained here forever never leaving i love it you just were gone for a week now i know well don't you dare don't you dare because i'm not a i'm again don't get me started i'm not a vacation taker no you're not that's very true to take that time and then yeah i've been told like hey what about like you know that was four days off you could do more you know tough i like no i'm the same i know precisely i'm blocked in the take chamber i'm here i need to be here i'm up at this time of the day anyway so i might as well be getting compensated for it but what else i love is i love being right i love it i love it i love it it's my favorite thing in the world sometimes sometimes i can admit when i'm wrong but when i'm right oh it's the best and when a smart person agrees with me when i'm right that is even better and we had exactly that yesterday so we mentioned it at the tail end of yesterday's show because we saw the tweet come out about the story the crux of it is around john Tavares and his fight with the canadian revenue agency i actually care kind of precious little about that particular nugget of the story i think it's interesting but that's not what has got me all hot and bothered okay what's got me all hot and bothered is these american cheating teams with their low-state taxes and all the guys want to play there and this is where we care about the game and no one ever wants to play here anymore it drives me insane they have the numbers there i think the thing that was most telling in that was the agent who was quoted in the piece saying shapey bear yep the saying teams will 100% point out this advantage and it's not just a case of hey look how good it is to be here in florida to be here in i think utah is now one of these states like yes correct right it's not just that they will also say let me show you a chart here's the money it's going to be listed on your contract here's the money uncle sam takes from that and here's the money in toronto that was specifically the language use of what it would cost you in toronto and they didn't just factor in the tax implications they factor in the cost of living on everything obviously toronto outside of again there will be a few markets in the states that would surpass this new york i imagine there's uh depending on where exactly they're buying real estate i imagine there's some ducks players and king's players saying not exactly cheap over here either so i understand that that's not a one-to-one but the fact that there are teams using toronto specifically as the foil for look how perilous it would be for you financially to play there versus here and i understand the argument from the other side is well the lease would sit there and have a chart of saying oh here's all the but they're actually not allowed to do that they're actually not allowed to say here's all the sponsorship money you will get they could talk about what could be maybe one day possibly if the team ever wins those are hard in fact fact hard and fast facts that they're dealing with if it's a florida panthers or the tambi lightening or one of those florida teams versus the leaves and the wishy washy nature of selling like oh you'll never buy a drink here again if you win okay they tell you that every place too it's incredibly frustrating was so nice to hear definitively that this happens we all thought it happened but i presumed yeah someone put their name on it yeah so we put their name on it with extensive research and some mathematical equations factored in this well it was dense it was in-depth it highlighted everything and laid it out in a very digestible fashion it was honestly um there are many things that stood out and i wrote down a bunch of different items from the story that really stood out but let's focus just like for a second if we just isolate the tax component that that piece first sure gunner here was a stat that sort of i think highlights what the discrepancy is four of the top five highest tax rates in the NHL belong to Canadian teams yep Ottawa and Toronto share the exact same tax rate so we need to as much as i know we're the center of the universe we make sure the sense share the exact same disadvantage for sure Montreal and Vancouver four out of the five teams that represent the top five in that category the only American team was the New York Rangers which logically makes sense right i all of this circles back to one thing at least for me when it comes to this by the way i think a lot of people shocked that California is like i think a lot of people yeah i know tally high tax date data that no not in the top five yeah no it's that that was also interesting in looking at that entire list of scene where those teams sort of netted out like they were well like outside the top five fringe top 10 area but that was it this is sort of what um struck me overall sure it's that in comparison to point for an American franchise namely the ones that are in the non-income state tax areas it's incredibly complicated to come play here yes right like that more than anything i'll forget all the numbers forget forget all the evidence and all of that if you're coming if you're coming to a Canadian team as somebody who is previously and this is all this is where it's hard to discuss this without getting super into the weeds but if you're coming to a Canadian team as somebody who is previously considered a tax resident to the United States john Tavares first one that comes to mind because despite him being a Canadian he was attacked in Long Island for seven eight years for the first eight years of his career so if you're making that move right different for guys that are drafted here whatever local guy slightly but still to think about the various and considerations that need to come to mind when it when factoring in like just if you're a player and you have to and you're sitting there let's say this article Gunnar came out on June 30th sure and you were a free agent you were all over Ekman Larson and you're you're going over your you're not your free agent options your opportunities that are being presented to you by your agent and this article comes out and you're like you know what let me read this i want to get a taste of what it is like you know what's it gonna look like and i try to read i'm like i step back halfway through and i'm like whoa that's a lot of information i didn't know was that complex i didn't know it was that layer i don't think i mean everybody's different and there are people who take complete one thousand percent ownership of their life and they would be super delved into that but i i'm putting myself in these guys shoes that yes i would want to know and i'd want to understand the gist of it but this is why you have agents this is why you have money managers and i think that that part of it is for them to deal with more so than the player okay so uh just on this taxation point somebody actually texted a no name if you if you do text in 59590 name and location text to end data rates may apply um this was a text and we can it was referenced in the piece as well quote this is somebody that texted in differences if you give a player a massive signing bonus he's only text 15 example math you 16 million this past july first he's taxed at 15 percent that's not talked about enough well this is where the point of consternation is now coming to because that's exactly what is happening with the CRA and john to various which is now another layer as to why why does this all matter well it matters because everybody's pointing to a case like that cases like what happened with Bautista and Donaldson and Russell Martin and saying the end result of those cases which we're not going to know for years but whenever that ruling comes down it's going to have a very very significant impact and influence on the willingness the desire and the ability for players to come here and sign big market deals they are essentially to answer this question and and respond to this comment they are challenging the premise that teams should be permitted in this country to find those loopholes like the 15 percent signing tax rate on signing bonuses they're they're trying to indicate they're trying to point out that that is not an appropriate way to structure your contracts and to make it work that is over there we're we're not getting bogged down in the tax policy of Canada right now that that needs to be just shelved in quite frankly like Jose Bautista and Russell Martin and any NBA player that wants to get involved they can go stand over there too because this is strictly about the NHL and how it affects the league or sorry the fans that care about the league the most the fans that pay all the league's bills the teams that keep this league afloat and the ability of the NHL to turn a blind eye to the we talk about brain drain in this country all the time of all we're gonna lose our people they're gonna go to America we are having a brain drain of the NHL in this country anybody who is not here basically playing for the Leafs or the Oilers is constantly on get me out of here watch at any point in time even Elias better said so I seem very happy to be in Vancouver and he got his money so we'll leave him alone now but that was far from a lock that he was just gonna re-up so this is the problem with this you know another chart that is very informative of this is so how much would top NHL signings take home in Toronto this is just again from the wonderful piece in the athletic stammer signs an eight million dollar a year banger in Nashville takes home 5.1 as a leaf it'd be 3.8 Jake Gunsell nine million dollars 5.7 in his new home 4.2 as a leaf Sam Reinhardt 10 million dollar banger 6.3 million year take home in Florida it'd be 4.7 with the Leafs there is you cannot convince me otherwise that if the I don't know the Canadian dollar was stronger or if the tax situations were completely flipped that the NHL would not be bending over backwards saying we need to help get talent to these southern markets it's part of our strategy to grow the game and them completely turning a blind eye to this point in time in the league when just the players are saying it quietly and if you really ask them they'll say it loudly too they don't want to be in here be here you throw all the pressure that is added of it it just will be always more of a wear on you to be a leaf to be an oiler man to be a senator than it will be to be a panther or a lightning or a star or wherever else it is and that is the thing I cannot shake about this is the NHL just willfully plowing their heads straight into the sand because it doesn't affect any of the markets that they have to worry about and that is the thing I cannot for the life of me imagine the NBA going out of their way to make life easier on the Raptors never never in a billion years Adam Silver wouldn't do it David Stern wouldn't have done it and guess what if that was the was the commissioner of the NBA he wouldn't be doing it either that's the thing I can't get is it's just a backwards thinking every other league doesn't cater to the blue bloods but certainly doesn't neuter them in this way like the NHL does with its Canadian blue blood okay so then the the question is why why why would they we will show up we will show up every year thank you sir may I have another oh one Canadian team makes a cup run every seven years thank you thank you we're so lucky to have it it doesn't behoove the NHL for the Canadian teams to win the cup every so often it's not better for the league I don't I I will sit here and say of course it's better for the league's most important markets to have a taste of that yeah of course I would say that even New York is in the same position the difference they would tell you the most important market is not Toronto they would tell you the most important market is Boston is quite frankly Buffalo because they always watch the games even when their team is in sniffing it and then they would go to the southern markets because they would not want to be seen as a regional sport and I I'm with you I would think the greatest story they could possibly tell is the Oilers and Leafs ripping our great nation apart as Matthews and McDavid are dueling I think that's as good a story as there is to sell but clearly just based on their actions they have taken the league thinks a way better story to sell is that no one cares when Sam Reinhardt has a bad game and he gets to wear flip flops to the rink that's a way better story apparently all right so how does this change well I think this is this is part of the impossible nature of this because the only way it can ever change is via something being collectively bargained correct the players are going to sit there and say I don't really care where the percentage of the pie goes I just want the percentage of the pie to grow and I just think it's not something the players are going to fight for it this also isn't like you know politics in the states where it's like the Canadian caucus it's like okay MLSE gets together with Aqualini and he gets together with Anne Lauer and on it it's not going to work that way because they're all individual teams that guess what they'll hate each other and yeah they're fighting they would love to have this fight but ultimately none of the other Canadian teams want to have the fight because if the answer is well give us more money to play with guess who's going to have the most money to play with it's going to be the Leafs and I think that's the thing that just makes this the the most frustrating part about this to me is that there does not seem to be a very simple quick fair fix involved in all this I suppose you could do something of a you know the cap is not 82 million hard and fast it's 82 million of take home dollars or ever you're looking at it there's a way to do that but I think part of the problem with our sport right now is all we talk about his contracts I don't need to make it more complicated of well he makes 8.2 million dollars but actually if he gets traded to Florida then they're on the hook for an extra he can't be doing that we don't need to make trades more complicated in this sport so I think that's the thing that's driving me the most nuts is I don't have the quick fix that makes it more digestible for fans yeah I don't think I well said I don't think there is a quick fix I think further to your point regarding the sort of a Canadian consortium if you will with all the teams coming together the reality is the majority of the league is American there are American teams so the Canadian teams are in the minority here which is weird to think totally but if they ever let's say those owners those ownership groups all bandied together and said you know what we there is an injustice happening here we are having a much more challenging time assembling our teams retaining our talents signing marquee free ages bringing in talent that is going to help elevate our teams as a collective presented to the NHL well guess what you're not winning that because what are the other owners doing what is it 20 what do we know that would be 32 so 7 so 25 owners whatever it is 25 American based teams are going to sit there and they're going to vote favorably for that no absolutely not so that is the biggest issue in all of this because if it was a 50/50 split if it was slightly in favor of the Canadian ownership base here in this country then yes conversation would be much easier to be had problem is they are but whether it's crazy to say it in this fashion when we think hockey is so dominant in this market in this country but to the minority in this in this conversation that puts them at an inherent disadvantage and yeah i think i think you're bang on i think you're bang on there's no easy fix there is no quick correction but what again as my primary takeaway for me was if it's just if there's it just seems like there are there are too many hoops for guys to have to jump through to come play in this in this in this market in this country and that is inevitably it's going to deter them from doing so that's just a reality and then i think the last part of it as well and i think they're i think they're tied part and parcel i think you gave the players an excuse to look for a reason out or a reason somewhere else and it's it just works out very well that almost all the low tax regions are the place where fans care the least and i think people hear that and i think don't players want to be feted don't they want to get told they're great yeah man like when Brandon Montour he could have signed here apparently that interest maybe signs with the kraken he's gonna go to whatever climate pledge arena they're looking me i knew what it was called well they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna applaud him and they're gonna they're gonna give him a ton of love there but it is not gonna be when he goes dash two and throws a pizza up the middle it's not gonna be the lead topic they're gonna be talking about they're gonna be talking about i don't know i was about to name a sea hawk and i like couldn't off the top of my head because my brain hasn't clicked on yet but they're gonna be arguing about the sea hawks or whatever's going on there will the mba come back? Brandon Montour throwing a couple of pizzas is gonna be the smallest thing i could talk about this yeah forever i honestly i honestly could it's one of these topics that could have been an entire show we'll maybe dive back into it tomorrow do gotta let you know before we get out of here that you can go see bush at Budweiser stage for the greatest hits tour on august 19th with jerry cantrell and candle box to celebrate we're giving away tickets to enter all you have to do is tune into episodes of the fan morning show listen for the code word then text the code word to 59590 standard message and data rates may apply today's code word is the kingdom again text the kingdom to 59590 right now to enter for your chance to win we're giving away another pair of tickets tomorrow but if you don't win with us tickets are on sale at ticket master dot c-a danielle i'd like to commend you getting up is not easy for those of us who don't but you i know buddy but you're back in the grinds you were living it you're going to go take a two-day long nap i i understood as you're off for a couple of days here thank you so much for stepping in thanks so much to our guys behind the glass i'm dying here who the flagbearers are going to be this afternoon i just give it to my man to grasp please please please just let him have it he deserves it and i like great picture much of let's do that as well uh danielle tons of fun thanks so much to the guys behind the glad it has been an awesome show with you on the fan morning show good morning