(upbeat music) - You're listening to Cappy Chief Radio. Get all the episodes and join the community at copychief.com. (upbeat music) - What's up everybody, welcome. I'm here with my buddy, Dan Walker. How are you, Dan? - I'm great, man. - It's good to be with you. Today, most of you certainly know the last name. If you don't know, Dan, Dan is the son of Jeff Walker and for 20 years now, a part of internet alchemy. Yeah, almost. - Oh my goodness. Maybe not quite that long, but coming up. Yeah, I think since 2010. - Well, 19 years now for Product Launch Formula, right? Coming up on 20 for that, you've been a part of it, pretty much your whole adult life. - Yeah, oh, yeah, absolutely. - Amazing, beautiful family business. I mean, it's just so cool that you guys, on one hand, completely dominate in so many ways, but you don't do it by having a dominating attitude. You just make it look-- - I would hope not, yeah. - You make it look breezy and easy and you just do your thing and you deliver great quality and people love it. And so it's been a thrill getting to know you in the last year or so and the role you play in the company and seeing a little bit more how the company works. Very much a family business. - You guys value work-life balance and it's just a great reminder that this doesn't have to be a grind in a major hustle all the time to work. - Totally, yeah. Well, I'm glad it looks like I'm glad it looks so easy. (laughing) - I feel like I'm living my head for-- - I feel like I'm living my head, that's great. - That's awesome. - Yeah, you're pulling off the facade really well. Here at the outside world, yeah. - Well, it's like anything, I think. You know, there's times in which it's crazy and there's times-- - Yeah, sure. It always is, yeah. - That's marketing, right? Things weren't predictable. But I wanna talk about, we just went through a process, we do a copy chief called The Goods, where we essentially run a competition for an amazing world-class marketing company, like yourself, to find and bring on new copywriters. I call it kind of the American Idol or the voice of copywriting. We start out with like around 50 and everybody goes through the same process of doing a test project, writing a cover letter to introduce themselves, then all the work is assessed. You guys ended up interviewing five people a day? - Five people, yeah. And it was tough to cut it down, for sure. - I know, right? Yeah, everybody, the second time we've done it, the first time was with Reed Sheffron, Felicia Pagash over there at Strategic Profits, and they had the same experience, like, wow, this is really, really hard. And that's how I think it feels the most like an American Idol or something. It's just, you know, when you get down to the final 12, it's like, any of them can go be a star, just go sing, people will be happy. And so I would love to hear for you what the process was like, what stood out to you a month after, now that you've brought on at least two people and you're working sample contracts, test contracts out with more. What are your biggest takeaways from the whole process? - It's a good question. What I noticed the most, I thought, so yeah, we had, I think you're saying about 50 folks. So there was a lot of folks. Basically, everybody had a test assignment that we gave them. You know, I think they had some instruction beforehand from you and from your staff and your team, and then we gave them an assignment. And it was not the smallest assignment. It was along the lines of what I would ask a copywriter working for me to create as, you know, say a first step in a project, you know, that was writing the beginning of a sales letter to the beginning of an email campaign going to that sales letter. So not an insignificant task for sure. We gave them a lot of background resources, a lot of background information, and resources from previous times that we'd run. It was for a live event of ours. We gave them email sequences and sales pages for similar live events in the past. So they have things to draw on and things to reference while learning Jeff's voice. What I think I noticed is that just about every single person had moments of brilliance, had things in their copy that I saw and was like, "Oh, I like that." Whether it was a hook or a line or a subject line or, you know, a way of leaning into something like, or a call to action, like, I think every single person had moments that were really, really good. And the people who really stood out were the people who could pull a lot more of those moments out. You know, it wasn't just having one great idea and one great email. It was having a really good email that led into a really good page that could come up with a interesting hook and carry that through the process. It wasn't enough in a situation like this to just have a really good idea. You needed to have an overarching, really strong idea for the campaign and then be able to carry that through with great wordsmithing or great emails and great subject lines or great headlines. One thing I found really common is people would either really nail the emails or they would nail the sales page. It was rare that we found folks who really nailed both. - Yeah, great point. And I want to give the listeners context. So the assignment was essentially to more show us your thinking than your writing in a sense, right? They were rewriting the deck, essentially, of the sales letter. They were outlining the email sequence, both for prospects and repeat buyers. And they were writing a couple of sample emails, you know, to show that they could write in just voice and those things. And, you know, it's interesting that you say that, that congruency, that consistency, 'cause that's what ended up winning Tom Hamaker, the gig in the first round of the goods. Ultimately, came down to three, they were all super good, but Tom just had the most congruency throughout the entire campaign that he mocked up. - Yeah, it's tough because I definitely paid attention to the writing. I would say the writing was the baseline. I wouldn't like that. In order for someone to be considered, their writing had to be very strong. I had to read their emails and say, yeah, we could send this email as is, and I think it would work. If someone was giving emails and I was like, yeah, I think I'd ask for a rework of this. I think with the level of competition we had, then if someone had, say, emails that I was like, yeah, I'd ask for a rewrite on this, then they were probably kicked down a notch into the second tier of folks. But yeah, once we got down to the best folks, simply being a good writer was, it sounds crazy to say, but it wasn't quite enough. Because here's the thing, so at our company, we're usually working on multiple campaigns at a time. Like we have a campaign that's going live, but we're also still working on, say, another campaign that's coming out there. We might also be working on, say, a renewal sequence for our, you know, one of our high-end coaching groups or something like that. In the business right now, all the copy flows through me. So I personally approve all the copy that goes out. So right now in the business, all the copy flows through me. So if I have a writer who I need to be very explicitly telling, write email one about this, write email two about this, write email three about this, email four about this, connect them together like this, use these hooks. Like if I have to be telling a writer that for each individual campaign, that's not sustainable over the long term. That times our many campaigns might be going on at once, and suddenly that's the only thing that I have time for now. And so what I'm really looking for in a writer is somebody who can be given the big idea, who can be given the strategy, who can be given the goal of a campaign, and then who can go off and come back and propose hooks and can say, you know, hey, I think email, why don't you be about this? And that leads into email two. And that leads into email three. And here's the way I'm gonna carry it all through. And what do you think? And then we can have a discussion about that. And then they can go off and write it all. That to me, I think is a, in my opinion, it's an underrated skill as a copywriter. So that was the thing like once we had that baseline with folks where they were a good, strong writer, like you could read their copy and be like, yeah, this is compelling, then the next step was, okay, well, how do they carry a theme through all of their messages? How do they craft a sales page that's compelling? And then have their emails, not necessarily even be trying to sell the product, but telling people and going to that sales page that they wrote. And ultimately going to get to conversion. - 100%. Yeah, right. That ability to see it all the way through. So really like be a strategist, understand the need of every piece to move the buyer forward, the prospect forward. And then like you said, the writing just has to be really good. You know, where you're not distracted by it, you're not hung up on anything, you're not confused by anything. And in your case, a very clear voice that understandable if a writer will get better at writing in that voice over time, but out of the gate has to understand, would say this, wouldn't say this. So when you were looking at the email samples and stuff, obviously you're not expecting them to like out of the gate, write like you would or someone on your team or Jeff himself. But were the things that come to mind in the copy where you'd kind of like, you'd be rooting for the person because everything's looking good. And then like something would happen. And you'd be like, I don't know whether those things. Yeah, there were sometimes like that for sure. There were, I'll tell you, there's a couple submissions that were so good. They were, they were so close to being great. And then there was something that was missed that it was just like, oh, dude, what are you doing? Like this is a giant omission. So yeah, there was a little bit of that stuff. They left out more than, yeah, taking big swings, taking big, I know you liked people taking big swings. I did like people that big swings. I mean, there were some people who maybe went a little too much. But for the most part, yeah, I was, I tended going through it. I liked people who are willing to say like one of our winners because we actually had a couple. But one of our winners, I really liked it because she rebranded our entire event. And that was a bold move, honestly. That was a very bold choice. But the thing is that she didn't just do that, is that she didn't just rebrand me of that, but she pulled it off. I was like, okay, yeah, actually I could see using this. And so, I mean, to me, someone gives you a campaign hook that you didn't think of, that's good enough that you would actually potentially use. - Yeah. - I mean, that's pretty impressive. - Yeah, and I suppose the thing from there is like making sure like, okay, they are also collaborative enough to trust and like, you know, can't be going off the rails every time. So that probably now the job becomes, oh, if we can just verify that this person is pretty sane and loose it and good to work with, then we got a home run here. - Right. And of course, the on-test part of the goods, that was the qualifier for getting an interview. But then, you know, once you got into the interview process, of course, there's the whole part about it. Yeah, I mean, we are a team of close to 40 folks, very cross-functional. And so, of course, we need somebody who can work in our team and we need somebody who we're going to enjoy working with and somebody who is able to work with our team well. That's absolutely for the requirement as well. (upbeat music) - Look, I get it. I know there's so many communities. I'm doing air quotes, communities for entrepreneurs out there, all filled with their own version of overnight experts, chirping at you from behind the screen. You got your Facebook groups, your clubhouse rooms, just experts galore. How often do you feel like you're being pinballed around from thing to thing and pick it up a little bit, a little piece there? How much of that is actually making it into your brain and your fingers and your business and affecting your money? How many of these people are actually out there in the field getting their hands dirty and testing to find out what actually works and what flops? Well, in the copychief community, a real community, you get shoulder to shoulder with the most active successful marketers working in the trenches today, all while learning from industry legends who rarely teach anywhere else, if ever. Copychief is an amazing community, super newbie-friendly, also you'll find elite-level marketers and copywriters in there. They're all working to become the best of their craft, get paid top dollar for their skills, stay ahead of the competition by keeping their finger on the pulse of what's working now. That's the X factor. When you're backed up by a community and you can get any question you have answered by people who actually do this stuff and can tell you from real world experience what to do for your project, for your offer, for your funnel, for your clients, and you're unstoppable when you've got that kind of confidence. Go check us out at copychief.com/join. If you've never been a member, you're gonna see what you've been missing and you're gonna say, where has this been all my life? And if you've been a member in the past, I would invite you to come and check out all the new stuff we've completely updated, all the tech. So we're on brand new platforms, everything is slick and smooth and easy to access and it's just, it's never been better. Copychief.com/join, I'll look for you inside. (upbeat music) And I'm curious, I haven't had a chance to speak to Jen who did the interviews and all that. What were her general takeaways from the things that put people over the edge for her? So Jen Zils is our COO. So she was actually the one that did the interviews 'cause honestly, after we went through the whole goods process, which was primarily me, Jen did give thoughts, submissions. Jeff also went through and gave a lot of thoughts on submissions, but I was kind of the final primary person deciding there. But by the end of the goods process, I feel like I've already done what I would do interviewing people. So Jen approached the interviews from a very operational point of view. So let's see, what was Jen probably primarily looking for with folks? I mean, she was looking for a team fit. She was looking for a culture fit. She was looking for somebody who, like I said, we have various forms of copy that we want delivered. So she was asking questions like, have you planned a full campaign before? Are you trying to pull a funnel before? How are you would say, "Program delivery copy?" Which might sound really, really boring, but most digital marketing businesses client is also your best ever prospect. So the people who are product launch formula owners, so they are owners of our $2,000 product launch formula coaching program, they are also going to be the most likely people to move up into our launch club high end coaching program. So we want all of our program delivery copy to also shine and to also be like an email that they're excited to receive from Jeff and email that brings them deeper into our world. So you might say, program delivery copy, like, "Oh, is that just, you know, here's your login?" I won't ever like, "No, that is an important function too." And so I had to experience with that. So I think she was really just looking for people's overall experience level and how they would be as a character in a culture fit. - Yeah, flexibility to take on things to learn new things. - Work in an environment where you're not the only copywriter, you may or may not be the only copywriter working on a project. I mean, she was asking questions like, you know, how do you feel about revisions? How do you feel like turning in a piece of work that you are super excited about and being told? Like, hey, this didn't really hit the mark. Oh, you know, we need different, we need change. So yes, you know, she was really wondering just like, how do people, how do people work in that sort of environment? What are they used to? - Right, exactly. Yeah, 'cause not everybody has team experience, right? Freelancers are typically, if they haven't been in house somewhere, they might just be working with a business owner or haven't had that team experience. - I think there's also something to be said for the fact that our business is built on copy. Like, Jeff is a fantastic copywriter himself. Like, he wrote all the copy for the business for a very long time. And he's been, you know, a absolute student of copy for two, three decades now. Something like that. Copies also something that I've gone really deep in. I've been real passionate about my entry into the world was I started a video production business. And, you know, I was working on sales video scripts and case study scripts and say copy and storytelling through the video format for whatever a decade or so. And so I could imagine there being businesses where a copywriter writes a piece of copy and they say, this is a good copy. And then the person, you know, on the team who's in charge of the marketeer in charge of maybe a public copywriter in your chart says, okay, cool. You say the copy, good, send it out. And that's not gonna be how things go in our business. You know, the copy is gonna go by me. And I'm, I think rather particular, like I want us to send really freaking good copy. And if copy comes across my desk and I'm like, hey, this is like not fantastic copy. Then we're not gonna send it, you know, and ask for it to get rewritten. And then beyond me, even, you know, Jeff's opening all of our emails, you know, he doesn't necessarily know every email that we're sending out, but he's getting emails and he's opening emails. And if he opens an email and doesn't love it, like it's gonna be like, guys, why did we send this? My feeling is probably that that's not the most common thing within the industry to have the higher up folks, you know, up to the owner of the business being highly invested in the copy. And also opinionated as to what makes for good copy. - 100%. Yeah. On that note, I'm curious because like everybody, you've adopted a lot of AI into your, the functionality of your product. You have launchy, the great tool that helps people create their launch funnels essentially in their campaigns. Where does it begin and end if in any official capacity in your copywriting process as a team? - Good question. We do highly encourage all of our team members to be proficient in AI and to be using AI where they feel appropriate to speed up their workflow, honestly, and that's something I'd expect for our copywriters as well. Give one example of a way that we use AI heavily in our copy. And so we have a podcast to dare to launch. And we record oftentimes our shorter episodes, 20, 30 minutes, but sometimes they're longer, you know, they're an hour and a half. And so if our copywriters are going to write copy about an episode and email, you know, sending people to go check it out, they could spend an hour and a half listening to the entire thing in order to find the hooks. That is a thing they could do. But that's pretty inefficient, especially say if we're in a launch or we're in a big campaign or a promoting a live event, that's not the only thing they're doing for the day is writing a podcast email. Like there's a lot of other stuff. So say we have a GPT that we've trained that you just upload the transcript and it'll auto-generate, stay the show notes. You don't really have it auto-generate the copy so much that you haven't auto-generate like talking points and quotes. - Time stamps and quotes are actually really impressive. It doesn't really, I really thought it was going to be just like embarrassingly bad at pulling out good quotes. But it's really good. It does a great job pulling out good quotes. And you know what, if you look at that summary, as well as what it considers to be great talking points and pulls out different quotes and then the show notes description, you look at all that 99% of the time, that's enough to write a compelling email about that podcast. You'll have the basic thing about it, you could pull a couple quotes out and then yeah, as time stamps. So if you're interested in, you know, oh, there might be something more there, you can go and look at it. So this makes the entire process of writing the episode of podcast copy, go from say a two hour endeavor, an hour and a half listening to it and then half an hour of, you know, writing an email. And it makes it, you know, just a 30 minute process to write that email instead. A lot more efficient. And also sometimes, you know, show notes, you know, like a lot of times do those sort of things to get rewritten like, okay, maybe, but a lot of times it's like, they're descriptive, you know, a lot of times you might need to have that extra human element in that that be usable. - That's a really great, it's a really great example. And that's the same way I've directly adopted it in my business. What's interesting is I try, it's going to do a better job than me on some episodes. I think across the board, it'll do a more consistent job of giving people what they need to hear to click over and listen than I would because I'm a moody writer, meaning I write for my mood. If I do the show notes right after I hang up on an interview, they're always better to where if I can't get to them, I get another call or something, a week goes by. I don't quite remember all the magic. I'm not going to re-listen to the whole episode. It was, you know, so I'm at a disadvantage. And that's one thing about AI and those kind of formats. It's just so consistent, it doesn't make mistakes. - Doesn't make moods. - Right. Like a way that I would think about this is like, so I had a video production business for a long time. I had all the gear and all the equipment and all the knowledge and, you know, I had something that you could shoot gorgeous, 8K footage, all this sort of stuff. And at times, all you needed was a quick little iPhone selfie video. It's the tool for the occasion. And I think it's similar like as a copywriter, your job is to create good copy that can go out into the world. And if at times there's things like that, like a show note or something like that, that you can use a tool with that goes on autopilot and you're still reviewing it. You're still seeing like, hey, what is this good going out there? Like I think that's one of the most important skills is that discernment of seeing the output and saying, is this good enough for this situation? And, you know, maybe for a low priority situation, you can just use it straight up. For a high important situation, maybe, but I would doubt it personally. I would imagine that you would use it as a tool in your creation at that point. But at the end of the day, like for me, as the person at the copy's going through, I mostly care that we're sending out really good stuff. I'm less invested by the exact process that someone uses to get to that really good stuff. - Love that, love that you said that. Early on in this AI maturation of awareness, you know, some business owners would say to me, do you feel like I should be able to pay less or ask to pay less for copy now? Because it's so much easier. And I said, well, honestly, what I think you should care about the most is consistent quality and how they got the copy to that place is frankly, none of your business. Not to be rude, but it's what you're saying. It's like, I would expect that you're doing smart things to make the process easier, faster, and overall better. But as long as it's consistently good, if you're not sleeping and that's your magic recipe, fine, when you finally burn out, I'll have to go find someone else, but it's just a natural evolution. And so it's interesting because I think a lot of people are sitting back going, oh, is it still worth starting as a copywriter or have I missed the boat? And here's a company, like you said, who does a lot of business, been around a long time, is very invested in these tools, understands them well, and are still going through a process like the goods who hire the best human copywriters you can get. - Yeah, AI is crazy technology, man. And technology moves at a crazy rate. So who knows where we'll get to eventually, but at the moment, I'm not just plugging in saying, hey, touch EPT, can I have a bunch of emails so this can't, you know, that's not a thought but I'm considering it at all. - Well, Dan, I respect and appreciate your time. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for going through the goods process and being such a great example of what it looks like to have a great client, to consider what great clients look for the qualities they look for in their writers, the level of work. You guys, you'd have showed up just like I knew you would to, and that's kind of the point of the goods is to show people like, it can be this good if you're willing to show up this well and be this dedicated to the craft. These opportunities are out there and they're special. - That's awesome. - Well, yeah, thanks again, man. I loved the idea when you were explaining the process. I loved the idea. I thought it was fantastic. I can't imagine going about hiring a copywriter in a different sort of way now. I feel like any other way we would have gone about the process. Well, I probably wouldn't have worked as well and certainly would have been a whole lot less fun to do. So, thank you, appreciate ya. - For sure, thank you, man. I appreciate it, Dan. We'll talk to you again soon, my friend, all the best in the coming year. I know you guys are gonna kill it once again, coming up on 20 years for product launch formula. Congratulations. - Thanks, man. Thank you, thank you. Gonna be a good year. - Yes, sir. All right, buddy, talk soon. - Cheers. (upbeat music) - Hey, don't forget your goodies. Head over to copychief.com/copychiefradio to get some great free stuff to help you put the things you hear on the show into action for your business. Copychief.com/CCR. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]
