Tom is joined by Roy Cavanagh MBE to discuss Denis Law's time at Old Trafford. A look back at his arrival, the type of player he was, the highs, the lows and everything in between.
The Hated, Adored, Never Ignored Podcast
Denis Law: The King of The Stretford End | A look back at Denis Law's career at Old Trafford.
(upbeat music) - Welcome back to Hated Adored. Never ignored for a podcast I've been wanting to do for some time and not just this one specifically, but this type of podcast. I've been getting anyone who followed me on YouTube while I was very enjoyable doing the United pubcast on YouTube, a lot of the content that was needed to sort of get views and everything on there was far from this type of content. I wanted to always look at Manchester United's history and some of the good times being regards to what a YouTube audience sort of wants and desires is there a 10-hug shop transfer revealed or five reasons to sell this player or anything. And while those discussions are needed at times, I think there's just so much of it out there. I think it does get a little bit sort of muddy that the water's out there on YouTube. And I thought this is the chance to sort of start my own. So audio only podcast and not have to be sort of dictated by views and clicks and sort of drastic images or anything and just have a discussion about why Manchester United is the best club and why it is the club that we do love. As I said, those discussions are needed at times, but I think there are just so many of them. I want to do something a little bit different. And if you click on YouTube, there is no discussions about the Busby Babes. There's no discussions about Dennis Law. There's no discussions about the 1968 European Cup final, et cetera. And while I'm still very excited to always discuss transfers and match reviews and the breaking news, of course, I think especially during the off season, it is a good time to sort of take a step back and remember no matter how bad Manchester United so make a feel at times in the last decade or so, it is still the best club in the world. It's still the greatest story ever told. And Manchester United's history is like no weather. And I say that history. I wasn't around when Dennis Law was playing. So it is always good to pick the brain and learn a little bit more. I think that's an important part of being a Manchester United fan in terms of educating ourselves in terms of the players and the stories that we weren't around. I know in 50 years, we'll be talking about the Bruno Fernandez and your Marcus Rashford and Aritan Hards and telling stories like that to people who weren't around today. So I think it's an important part of being a Manchester United fan. So I reached out to a few Twitter accounts and the very good sort of Twitter account out there United before Fergie. I'll put the tweet out to them saying, does anyone know about Dennis Law's career in terms of having a good knowledge and would like to have a chat on the podcast? They put it out there, thanks to them. And Roy Kavanagh got in touch with us and I'm very grateful because I had an absolutely brilliant chat with it, which obviously you'll hear in a minute or two. But I could have picked his brain for hours. There was only a short chat just in regards to the time that Zoom does allow on those meetings. But very enjoyable. As said, I will definitely get him on again to discuss someone else or another time in Manchester United's history. He was an absolute walking encyclopedia of Manchester United and was absolutely brilliant to discuss Dennis Law's time at all traffic. The ups, the downs, the highlights, the lowlights, some of the moments and he's got some incredible stories as well. So I do truly hope you enjoy it. He's written a lot about Manchester United. I'll leave his socials or tag him on the podcast. So if you are on Twitter, go give him a follow. Definitely a great account to interact with. And yeah, well, as said, it is a discussion about Dennis Law and his time. But as we start, every hated, adored, never ignored podcasts. We'll with a little bit of trivia and why not make it in and around Dennis Law and the United Trinity. As said, the United Trinity and that stature obviously comes up in discussion throughout the podcast. But I thought I'd make a trivia question in and around that topic. And obviously a very proud era for Manchester United in those 1960s, obviously culminating in the European Cup Final in '68. The, those three players obviously Ballondall winners. Obviously, we're far from having a Ballondall winner in this current Manchester United team. But we did have three in that decade. But my question to you is what order do the three players win the Ballondall? Who won it first, who won it second and who won it third? And if you have any bonus points or if you want some bonus points, if you're playing at home, what were the years of those three victors in the Ballondall? So as said, sit down and go for a walk, whatever you do for your podcast, put it in the car. And hopefully you do, I know you will, 'cause as said, I've been blessed over the years to talk to many Manchester United players. So it's even some legends that Manchester United and sort of cherish those chats and podcasts. This part of me up there is one of my favourites. So I'm absolutely loved it. So sit back or go for a walk or whatever you do and enjoy the show. (upbeat music) - So as said, it's a pleasure to be joined by Roy. So we'll get, but pretty much want to get straight into it. Firstly, a huge thank you for joining us on the podcast, Roy. So I'll ask you about your day in a little bit, but where I want to start, whenever we sort of mention a football, mention a Manchester United player, a good player or a bad player, it gives you an image or you get a feeling or you get a memory that sort of pops up in your mind sort of your instant reaction. As said, well, a good player or a bad player. Yeah, initially get that first reaction. When I mention the name Dennis Law to you, what sort of pops up in your mind? - Dennis Lawries, without doubt, one of the greatest Manchester United footballers I've ever seen. I first saw United in 19, early 1955 at the age of eight. So I saw the rise of the buzzword babes. I saw the holy trinity. I saw the Martin Bookin, the second divisions and Tommy Doctoratee, all the other managers right through the foggy year to where we are today. And I did a book recently, which says it's the most difficult question to answer, but what was United's greatest ever, 11? And in the end, I went back to 1955. I did a fall summary from 1878, and I did five different teams. 1878, 1939, the buzzword years, 1970 to '86, the foggy years and 2013 to date. And Dennis Law is in the final 11. - Yeah, that's great. Well, when you put it like that, it sort of does put it in a perspective in terms of the Manchester United history, the most illustrious history, in my opinion in the football and world, and anyone to make some type or anywhere near a final 11, let alone the final 11. - That sounds very hard. - Yeah, obviously. And he's one of those players, I sort of do want to pick your brain about just in regards to Manchester United's history and obviously very famous in terms of that era. In regards to, as you mentioned, the trinity is sort of a chart in George Best. And I somewhat feel, not in a disrespectful way, but Dennis Law is somewhat a little bit forgotten about in that trinity, just in regards to the attention and sort of a lot of the media in terms of what the fans remember, and that's definitely why I do want to learn a little bit more of it. But you mentioned there in terms of supporting United since sort of 1955 and only imagine the stories and sort of memories. You do have sort of a wonderful era, a sad era, obviously for obvious reasons, but obviously the resurgence 10 years later. But my first question is, Manchester United, how, was it a natural thing where you brought up with it in terms of eight years old, you started supporting Manchester United? What was that first memory and how did it come about? - No, well, I used to live, still living in the city of Saltford, I'm very proud of Saltfordian, but a decent rubric side as well, Saltford. But you were a short walk over traffic road swing bridge to old traffic, and I love the cricket as well. So, you know, just another half a mile down the road, you were at the cricket ground. So I went there just automatically. My late father took me to both grounds which I'm everlastingly grateful to. And I was drawing from, I think this is quite weird actually, Tom, because I do feel as I've got a very good memory from 1955 to 1968. If you threw a team or a name to me now in that era, I'd be disappointed if I didn't get it. But if you threw a name or a team to me from 2005 to 2018, I struggled a little bit. It's not because I'm in memory loss, it's just that that particular area, but growing up from eight to 18, leaving school at 15, you know, a very evocative and very, very memorable to me. And I do remember my first games in early 1955. But I've got a feeling I was there at a Christmas game in 1954 against Aston Villa. And yet, there's me talking about this memory, but I've been on a place two or three things which associate me to that game. But I definitely was through from 1955. And as I say, it was around the corner from me and it was obvious and never left me. - Yeah, I think it's brilliant hearing stories about that in regards to whether someone is, as said from Sulford or here on the other side of the world, in Sydney, I always made the point, everyone has their own story here or their own experience of why it is Manchester United. And I believe all the special ones, obviously like that, but sort of foreign fans are here in Sydney or people in Asia, it's somewhat and sometimes get a hard ride in regards to why we chose Manchester United. But I think a lot of the time Manchester, or Manchester United does pick the fan. But in regards to, let's get into Dennis Lord 'cause I could pick your brain about to the 1955 and '54 and those games, et cetera. And the Busby Babes for the next couple of hours. But just in regards to Dennis Lord, we'll pretty much get straight into it. And you mentioned that era in terms of a huge part of Manchester United's history is bringing through, as said, the Busby Babes and youth players and sort of thing. And you will have the football in world has changed dramatically since in regards to transfer fees, et cetera, and plays a goal for this amount of money, plays a goal for this amount of wages. It was kind of, I wouldn't say unheard of, but in regards to signing a player for money. Well, what is sort of raising eyebrow here or that? And Dennis Lord, obviously, well, no, well thought of, obviously how does he then had to move to Italy? I'm just thinking the move to Manchester United, sort of, how did that come about in regards to you as a fan and following it? 'Cause now when we follow a transfer, we say, yeah, we'll have him from over in this league and you hear about all of the social media, you hear all these reports. You saw invested in it. In regards to hearing about Dennis Lord joining Manchester United, what was the feeling amongst fans in regards to, was this big sort of media hype there? Did you know about him before that? And just your general sort of feeling when he was unveiled as a Manchester United player? - Yeah, I mean, he was a big name when he was signed and you've got to remember 1962. It was just the beginning of the so-called swings in '60s. Well, I was 15 at that time, so I was, I can remember most of it. And, but Dennis was well-known and I'm not gonna go off, please, but this is all about Dennis Lord. Well, my first, I was told a great story by an original Bosby Bay called Harold Bratt. No, not many people will know Harold Bratt. Brattold is on that famous picture of the day after the Munich aircraft with what was left in the dressing room and Harold was there 'cause he played for the reserves. He was 18, he was a sulfur lad, a bit older than me, but I got to know him in later life and he told me a lovely story of his first meeting with Dennis Lord. And this was a United versus other steel town FA Europe Cup game in 1956. And Dennis Lord was well-known to United then. I'm going over toward this field on the coach, Jimmy Murphy comes up to Harold and says, now they've got an inside right he was playing that day in number eight. I said it's six stone went through. He's got national health service glasses on. It's got plaster on one of the lens. He said, but do not let him out of your sight. And Harold's thinking, yeah, okay. I train, I see Duncan Edwards, I train him and he'd tell him it's anyhow. 10 minutes gone on this field, United had never lost a game in the football FAU Cup by that time and this was the third season. 10 minutes in, the two nil down, Lord scored one of the goals and he made the other and he thought. Murphy's going to give me some stick. Luckily, he was on the other side of the pitch. And he got to go back just for our time and our time. Murphy stormed and he didn't have a go at Harold. He looked at all the teams and said, look, whoever's standing next to Dennis Lord in the second hour, you stomp on his foot. And inside the first minute, it was a corner. And Mark Pearson was a very feisty inside left. Still on Dennis's foot and it put Dennis basically out the game because there was no substitutes and everything, limping. United won four too. And United, I was told on very, very good authority after that game, which is 1956, offered 10,000 pounds to all his field town. And if you think the British record in 1956, it might not have reached 30,000 pounds in the law of the 16, 17 year old schoolboy. And others feel turned it down. Busby always had law in his mind from that time. Now, the Munich aircraft obviously happened. And Dennis was about to get transferred after two to Manchester City. But United spent all the money on Albert Quicksall. They paid 45,000 pounds for Albert Quicksall. When the British record was 30,000 pounds and they had no money, law then became available and went from others field to Manchester City to 55,000. United just did not have the money after the crash. He lasted about a year at the city. Then he went to Torino for quite a lot of money. I don't know if it was a million, but sorry for 100,000 or not. But then United in 1962 heard that it was available and they made every effort to get him. Problem was for Mark was that the chairman, Harold Gardner, whose life story I did in one of the books have done on United. Harold had been there when United were virtually bankrupt in the mid 30s. And he'd been a director then and he saw how finance was affecting clubs. And he definitely didn't want United to get into real debt and spending 115,000 pounds in 1962. I can assure you it was virtually a real record. And that's when Louis Edwards did come in and finish. Louis Edwards gets a lot of stick to United. But Louis convinced Admin that he would sort the finance and help and he went for Denis. It was a bit hard to get him away from Torino. But Denis made it clear he wasn't going back there and he signed. We all knew about it. When I was there at the game for his debut against West Brom and I can remember in coming on to the pitch, start the swing in '60s, it was only about 22. And it just looked like a million dollars. No, two million dollars. A zillion million dollars. His blonde hair was perfect. The red shirt fitted in perfect. He just strutted on, not arrogantly, but he did confidence and he went, wow, that's seriously. It must have been like meeting Mallory in Monroe. I mean, he was wow. And from that moment on, he delivered, well, he delivered virtually every time. And for six years, of course, I may get to this, but the court, two titles, and sadly, he missed the '68 final, but he helped us get there. It just was the mob. Yeah, definitely. There are two games I do want to bring up in regards to the '63 FA Cup final and obviously the 1968 European Cup final, but it's a brilliant story there, especially that one in regards to the FA Youth Cup and Manchester United's rich history at the start of that tournament. And then you mentioned that Dennis Law's story, when he wasn't anything to do with Manchester United. I think that is absolutely brilliant. But in regards to sort of making comparisons with the modern game and sort of some of the more modern names, but in regards to ourselves and many of our listeners who obviously have seen Dennis Law on the clips, been regards to who didn't see him play live or at the time. Now, the game has changed. I'm aware of that, but the type of striker he was. Obviously, he's a brilliant striker, but the game has changed. If there is a name in modern football or Manchester United's modern history that there is some type of similarity with or was it completely different, but just in terms of the type of striker he was, if he just describes what he did bring to the field. Yeah, I mean, Dennis is actually underrated as to what an all round footballer he was as well, very intelligent. He knew the game. He was really magnificent in that six-yard box. You know, he sniffed the goal. He was a brilliant header of the ball, but someone who wasn't massively tall, timed his jumps perfectly, he just sniffed out goals. I mean, it's very difficult, as we've said before, but the names that he would compare into, not physically, but you've not missed the ride possibly. And all his goals were, of course. You know, the way they sniffed and they just got goals. Dennis, as I say, was an integral part of Manchester United from 1962. Through to 1973, we'll get to that as well. A really bad ending. But he was a vital part of it, and he wasn't just a bit player. He was, you know, right at the front of that. But as I say, you must remember that it was a very good orchestrator of the game as well, not just a lethal finisher. Of that era, there's only Jimmy Greaves that could compare to him from scoring goals, physically just scoring goals. Yeah, that's the one name. And again, I would say, like a knowledge beer, I didn't say that. Watching live is the highlights that I have seen. The route Venice Troy is the one. And you make a very good point, all comparison. There was Soul Shop, the route Venice Troy was the one definitely sprung to mine in regards to, as you mentioned, had six-yard box and just sort of knew where the goal was. And it actually may be a little bit fitting with the rumours that the route Venice Troy could potentially be rejoined in Manchester United's coaching staff. So that's interesting. Oh, perhaps there's a sense of volume. Yeah, I wouldn't say no to that at the moment, to be honest. I would not say no to that. You're saying Dennis Law's the best driver. It's not a debate for me through Venice Troy. The players I've seen in terms of an old-fashioned number nine. Absolutely loving it. Now, I do want to sort of pick your brains on the '68 final and which obviously Dennis Law wasn't a part of, but just sort of around the story around that. And then obviously he's departure from Manchester United. But before that, I'm collecting a little bit of memorabilia. And while I said it, collection is growing. I have a few bits, luckily, from Patty Crayer. And over the years, he's been kind enough to give me and a lot of it is a 1963 FA Cup final. Patty Crayer and obviously played in that match. Now, Dennis Law opened the goal scoring. And I just want to pick your brainages on that specific match, because I just happen to have three or four bits, a really nice bits of memorabilia from that match. And obviously anyone who scores in an FA Cup final for Manchester United, I'm talking about it now with Coby Mayno and Alejandro Camacho. They write themselves in a Manchester United history. Dennis Law, FA Cup, obviously Manchester United, who ran out, can't come to winners there on the day, but Dennis Law scoring in the FA Cup final and just your general feelings of that day in 1963? Yeah, well, I went through that. That was the first live Cup final that I actually attended. I was 16. And actually, in England, the Cup final's live came around on the television from about 1953 when it was the coronation year of Queen Elizabeth. So the 1953 final, Bolton versus Blackpool. I remember the 1954 final pressed in the westbound. And then the finals were on each year. So the 57 final, I remember obviously watching them out again, still alive on the telly and the 58 final against Bolton on the telly. But '63 was the first one I actually attended Wembley Stadium. And I'd seen all the games in that Cup run, actually. We'd be, or just feel, five-nil in the first round. He got a hat trick against his old club. We'd then be Austin Villa, we'd be Chelsea. I went to Coventry in the 6th round. And I went to the semi final against Southampton at Villa Pat, where Law scored the only goal which put us in the final. Now, between that semi final and the final, we played Leicester twice over the Easter. And Leicester were actually in a chance of doing the double that year. They were second in the first division to Liverpool. And we were struggling because we just didn't click. Bobbie Childnad had an injury. So he didn't start the season when Dennis came until about November, late October, November. Then in December, Britain had the worst winter. Anybody alive today will ever remember. Cup ball, for example, got stopped from boxing day to like nearly the beginning of March. So the third round FA Cup tie, which would normally have taken place on the first Saturday in January, didn't take place till a Monday night in March. And then he had to cram the games in. And the United's form just went off. The Cup form is great. And they got themselves sucked into a potential relegation, believe it or not. They signed in February made a big difference. But we played Leicester twice over the Easter period and went to both games. We drew on to two and went to Leicester. And I got locked out actually. It was a huge crowd. I got locked out and we got beat four, three and Dennis scored a hat trick. And he was up. You know, he was just this prolific goal scorer. And then we got to the final and United just seemed to set the pitch. And they just sort of threw the chess out. Hey, we're Manchester United. And you know, the team, it was a really good team. You know, Patty Crohn was playing for us. Dennis was playing for us. Bobby was in the team. David, a much, much underrated center forward was in the team. Quick Sol who'd cost us $45,000. He was in the team in Johnny Giles. There were not a lot of people, you know, because he went to Leeds. But Giles was in the team. More is set is believeful. So we had an experience and a really good side. And we dominated the game. And Leicester, bear in mind, was second, a finished second. And Lost got this great goal where I was behind the goal. He took it, he turned and put it in the corner past banks. Made it two nil. Let's do pull one back. So then he got a little bit edgy. But then heard score two actually. And we won three one and deservedly won three one. And that was also moment. Light switches come on. And that display, they get all the poor performances in that season. From the following season, which would be 63 four, 64 five, 65 six. 66, 67, 67 eight. We were Manchester United. We could go anywhere. Fingers crossed in regards to that. Drawing comparisons in regards to an FA Cup. Sort of victory. Quite a poor season by Manchester United. This season, I dare to argue, win that FA Cup. Maybe something clicks next season. Who knows? Maybe not. But we can live in a little bit of hope. But you mentioned those years going into 1968. And it's one which is a weird one in regards to discussing Dennis. He missed the match to injury. The question I want to throw to you in regards to that. And you can give any stories, feel free in and around that sort of famous night in Manchester United's history. But in regards to Dennis, I'll look at it now and let's say we have a big FA Cup final. Bruno Fernandez misses it. Or if we had a match back 10 years ago and Wayne Rooney was missing. There'd be a sense of fear amongst men. What are we going to do without our best player? Was that a feeling with Manchester United when Dennis Lord missed that match? Or were we quite confident with our striking options at the time? What was the miss of him not being there like? Most definitely. There was a fear because he was starting to get injuries around them. And of course he finished. He did do another four or five years after that. But he didn't start yet to get injuries. But to lose Dennis Lord was a big blow. But again, we go back to the Holy Trinity. We had three world class players and Chalt was there. Best was there. So it wasn't as big a comparison if you're back to the Bryan Robson years, for example, where great names around him, Paul McGrath, Frank Staples and Ray Wilkins. Robson's not in the team. Robson's missing. Rooney, a much, much underrated player. You look at Rooney's career stats and everything. And one other thing with Wayne Rooney, he was a complete team player for United. He played on that left hand side. Well, no, I'm number nine. I find it amazing Wayne Rooney's our top goal scorer in regards to the way he did sacrifice himself in regards to position. He's the way he played the game. It wasn't a real striker. I just find it amazing he's our top scorer. Yeah. So it was so sad, Dennis, even more sad that Dennis wasn't there too. Because you got to remember people have forgot this. Dennis Law was still the Manchester United captain when we reached the European Cup Final. I didn't know that. That's why Bobby Charlton was the captain on the night. But Dennis, if he would have been, he would have been captain as well. And of course he was having an e-operation, which then would trouble him for the rest of his life. But yeah, he was a great player. I don't know if you've got time. I'll just slip this in. But I had seen two England Scotland internationals in '65 and '67 at Wembley. And Dennis in both games with really in his pomp. So the 1967 game, which was only 12 months prior to '68, European Cup. Scotland came to Wembley and beat England 3-2 in England with the current world cup holders. Of course, all the Scots to this day consider that Scotland won the world cup that day. And what I remember was that it was 100,000 there. But this is death, what I'm going to say. I appreciate it. But it's genuinely seen as old 90,000 with Scots. You were all over the place. Seriously, it was like, wow, what's going on here? But Law orchestrated that victory for Scotland 12 months prior to the European Cup. He dictated the play. He dropped his score to go. He came off. He laid the ball off. He was a magnificent footballer. So you wouldn't bound to be a bit wary about missing him for the European Cup final. But we did have Chelsea in London. Yeah, Chelsea in that. Yeah, it's a matter of not replacements. But yeah, it's a matter of a cover to get Manchester United through on that sort of, probably the most historic night in Manchester United's history. I think it's going to be a very, very important thing. It's going to get on to East departure and sort of one or two things post Manchester United. Just quickly, whether there's a factual answer where I'm missing or just your personal opinion or preference. A highlight of Dennis Law's time at Manchester United. Was there a goal? Was there a moment? Was there a season? Was there a weird personal story? Do you have a bit of a highlight of Dennis Law's career at Manchester United? If you can pin it down to one moment. Yeah. It's going to be about 64.5. He scored 46 goals in all competition. Yeah, I think it was two more than competition. We're in Venice, Troy, I think. Yeah. And that year he was just like, I mean, you just went to the game and you knew he was going to score. We scored a lot of that tricks. You know, he loves scoring that tricks again like Dennis Law. And I remember one game which went down in the tie went down in United's history, which we don't want to really talk about. And that's how it seems to be remembered. But it was a final game and the cut winners cut within 63, 4. And Dennis would play sport in Lisbon at Old Trafford and we won 4-1 and Dennis scored a hat for it. And again, he was just every game around. And the week after we played a six round FA Cup tie with Sunderland, which went to two replays. And in the second replay, we'd never been in front in the tie. And we went 1-0 down. But we'll just feel, actually. And 55, that was not an unknown one. We'll just be. And last scored another hat trick. And, you know, that period, you can't specifically say that's one game. In fact, if it did specifically pick one game, it would be the England Scotland game in 1967 when he dominated and orchestrated Scotland to beat the full England side that had won the World Cup the year before. And he's all round play. And he scored. But he was that type of player. He was just a magnificent footballer. And when you meet him or you met him off the field of play, you know, he was never, I am, et cetera. And he put the glory to other people, very sharp weight, of course. And sadly, even more sadly, he is sadly today in not too good health at all. Yeah, definitely sad hearing about his condition, but all our sort of best wishes. And he's given us a lot of time of memories and memories and moments, images, stories, et cetera. And I think that's sort of a good thing about this podcast and regards. I do words. He has. He has. Sorry to introduce. Of course, he has two statues at United. It's always a bit of a trivia question. We use it our supporters, we'll discuss in our club chairman, just before we start a recording, we always have trivia nights or trivia at our meetings. And one of the ones we always use is is that in regards to which player has two statues. And I'll travel a lot of people do forget the one in the Stratford End. But I do want to mention the Stratford End just at the end of the podcast. But before we do get to that, we'll talk about these highlights of Dennis all's queer at Manchester United. He's departure. If you just quickly sum up how that came about the feeling, et cetera, and just your sort of general memories of that time. Yeah. The first word is sad. The more meaningful word is disgraceful. There's no way whatsoever that Dennis Lord should have left United in the manner that he did. I got to know Tommy Docket is quite well in later life. And he was really charismatic. And I have to say I liked Tommy Docket. But obviously that decision, which was proved the way he did it, was totally wrong. It wasn't befitting the name of Manchester United. It wasn't befitting the name of Dennis Lord. As I said, you know the operation he had in '68, which made him miss the '68. He was still scoring goals, still scoring metrics. And of course he had that famous goal in '69. I was at that game against AC Milan in the second leg when we'd gone tunnel down over there. We were one mill up. And he definitely, definitely scored. He went over the line at the Stratford End. And it was disallowed. We finished up winning the night one mill, but going out at the semi-final of the European Cup. And I think we would have won that again that year, which may have masked things because there was no doubt that the team in general needed changes made into it. Then so of course you moved into the '70s and the change of managers and everything. And Dennis is formed. It was one year with O'Farrell up until the Christmas when law was back at his height, really. And in fact, Frank O'Farrell, we were five points clear at Christmas and finished up eighth. So that was about '72. And then of course the relegation season. Sorry, he then got his last game, I think, was against Norwich. I think it was '72, '03 or '73, '04. And you know, he wasn't the player, obviously. And so a good ending should have been as it was, that he was going to either retire or a free transfer. But it was sad, but it was disgraceful, really, the way it ended. Yeah, it's a shame when you hear that in regards to another specific spin regards to, obviously, I remember. And it's a great disagree. We all see all loves relics first. We all love Roy King, but in terms of how that relationship sort of sounds, that's one that I sort of remember did need to happen like that, obviously strong personalities. But it's just a shame. But as I said, two more things before we do wrap up and that is I could pick your brain all day. And I'm sure we'll definitely want you to want this podcast again to discuss Dennis all further, or any other players, but just in regards to a very famous sort of moment, unfortunately. And it's obviously Manchester United fans are well, well educated now in regards to the facts behind it. And it's not all as it seems, but we do remember the goal for Manchester City at all traffic against Man United. Man United will then relegate it that day. Now we do know that City fans do use it as a stick to be united with where the facts say, well, it didn't really matter. But just at the time, Dennis was scoring against all against Manchester at all traffic in a dark time for Manchester United as a fan. What was that emotion like? Because I could only imagine that. Could you imagine Marcus Rashad going and scoring a big goal against Manchester United, which one Manchester City something it would be heartbreaking. So I'm just your emotion on that day. Yeah, I was sat right behind that goal in the case down, which had only just opened, you know, replaced the old scoreboard then. And it was instinctive, of course, which Dennis was an instinctive player as well. Across coming in and just flicked it, it went in. I think the interesting story is I'll come back to what it felt, but Dennis just walked off. And the censor shot, you know, their players calling Bell came up to me and Dennis just walked off. I don't know if you know this story as well, but he actually then walked straight down the tunnel. And he actually walked into the Manchester United dressing room and just sat there. When the whistle went, the United players went in after the game, they went into their dressing room and Dennis was sat in the United dressing room. He was so, his mind had just gone. But I knew, and I think all the people, all the people, cracking up, it was only about 36-37, but hopefully a little bit more mature. I knew that we were already down, you know, if it finished up, Neil, Neil, or if it finished up, 0-1 or 0-10, we were down. So that goal did not actually physically relegate us. But, of course, Dennis took it badly and took it in the way which summed the man up, a Manchester United legend. And if we all look at the word legend in the diary, then sorry, in the dictionary. Today, where people call legends after about three years of playing 60 or 70 games and winning nothing, we need another word then. The legend is Dennis Law, and he is without a doubt, in my opinion, one of the two greatest signings of Manchester United. Dennis Law, who made the complete impact, I.E., the affected the team, the affected the supporters, the affected the charisma about the club. They personally changed and brought everything through in that era with Manchester United. So many of the great signings were by Gish Michaels, Genny Sirwin, Tommy Taylor, about whatever, book, law and cancer in their periods, lifting everything. Well, it's a beautiful segue into the final point. The story you mentioned here in regards to Dennis Law leaving the pitch and going sitting in the dressing room. I think while it is happening in a blue shirt, that kind of almost even cement home even further, his Manchester United status in regards to the off-field feeling, the off-field love he had for Manchester United. I think I know where this answer is going to wipe for yourself, and this is where different fans have different opinions, but in regards to nicknames around Manchester, you talk about legends status and Eric Canton has been sort of a social media in recent times. But in my era, Eric Canton is the king, obviously the original king of the Stratford and Dennis Law. So I'm just thinking whether you stand on that, wouldn't say debate, but in regards to, is there room for two kings, is there room for only one, and would that be Dennis Law over Canton? In terms of just your sort of general feeling around that? Dennis Law is the king, but hey, why not? That's half of two kings, unless someone could come up with another, I don't know, is emperors more than kings? So does Dennis then become the, I don't know, but they both deserve legendary status, and in their time were just fantastic for the club, for the team, and for the supporters. But Dennis Law is without a shadow of doubt, the king, bearing mine, is the king in the time as we started this conversation, that there was the old eternity around him, Bobby Charlton could be the king. George, you best do arguably, and this may be another day, is still, in my opinion, the greatest football ever to play for Manchester's Unime. So yeah, Dennis Law is the king, but Canton can't be much lower. That's why it is great to sort of pick your brain in regards to all of Manchester United's history. It's the end of this podcast that could sort of sit here all day. Is there another play if we ever get you back on the podcast, another sort of play out or story around Manchester United's history that you think our listeners would enjoy? Well, George, obviously. And if you want it as historical, you know, really historical, the Busby babes as a whole, because I saw them come through from 1954, and I can remember now where I was at four o'clock English time on Thursday, February, and the 6th. I think we'll leave there. Look, absolutely, and honored to have you on Roy. I've enjoyed every minute. I wish we could discuss for another two or three more hours, but I'm sure I will take the time to get in touch with you again and get you back on the podcast to discuss that George best of us. I'd be delighted. And a good guy to do not know. Give my regards to Marco Connor, and he flags your flag. I know he's back in Australia now, but he always flew the Australian flag brilliantly. Thank you. No, definitely will do so. Thank you for that. And yeah, the good week weekend and we'll chat you soon. Take care. Bye. My huge thanks to Roy. I absolutely love that. And I can still be here talking to him. I'm going to sort of piggy his brain again on more plays. I said, George best, maybe a one on top of a child, maybe a specific one on the Busby babes. Who knows if you have an interest in something you'd like to hear more about from Roy, do you get in touch and I'll send it his way and he's been, he's some of his more than happy to come on again and chat all things Manchester United. I truly, truly enjoyed that. And yeah, just remind you why we do support Manchester United. I was around with Dennis Law was playing, but I look at stories like that. And he is the reason I support Manchester United. So I'll be charting is the reason I support Manchester United. The Busby babes of Munich is the reason I support Manchester United and this happened 30 years before I was born. And I just think that goes to show how special this, this club is so you've waited this long for the end of the podcast and the trivia question. The trivia question at the start of the episode was obviously very famous for United in the 1960s and three ballon door winners in the United Trinity. My question to you was what order did those players win the award and if the bonus points who in what years were they won 1964 was Dennis law Dennis law was the first man chasing out a player to win the bell on door. And then obviously so Bobby Charlton in 1966 and George Best in 1968 now when George Best won it. So Bobby Charlton actually came second as well. So Dennis Law was the first to do it Bobby Charlton second and George Best rounded off the United Trinity and so Bobby unlucky not not to win in 68 as well but I think no one can begrudge George Best winning in 68 so bit of a trigger. Maybe you would have got that Roy definitely would have got that one no doubt about it. He probably got the told you he got seven and 30 and 64 as well. So just put him out there again. These are the chats I want to still obviously discuss match previews, reviews, transfers, breaking news etc. But I want to do something different with this podcast. You can click on YouTube and there'll be 500 videos about those things. I want to do something that's not out there and that's a chat about Dennis law that's a chat about the buzzy babe so if you have any stories or you want to hear about anything or you want to sort of research anything with us and have a discussion with us at the pub or over zoom etc. Do get in touch and do let me know what you think that that episode you enjoy what you've done anything differently. Give me a little bit of feedback but in regards to feedback on your podcast app which you are holding your phone as we speak it gives you sleep a rating review whatever it does allow me very much appreciated and I know Roy would appreciate it as well but I hope you got something out of it because I know I do. I know a lot more about Dennis law now and I'm going to continue to educate myself on it. So I'm hopefully you enjoyed it and I'll chat you soon. Cheers. [Music]