The spiked podcast
346: Farage, Lowe and the Very Online right
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So the reform party is in crisis not long ago. We were talking about it being at the top of the polls, you know, doing astonishingly well. But Rupert Lowe one of the MPs and Nigel Farage have had this spectacular falling out. Tom, I mean, there's a lot more to this story. There's even a, you know, allegations of criminal behavior potentially. Do you want to sort of spell out how we got here? Now, absolutely, it's incredible how much has happened in the course of a week. But it essentially seemed to have begun with this casey led investigation into alleged bullying within Rupert Lowe's constituency and parliamentary office. All claims that have been made against me strenuously denies. On top of that, we then saw this explosive interview in the mail in which Rupert Lowe referred to Nigel Farage as someone who had messianic qualities. But at the same time that reform needed to transition from being a protest party. He kind of left it as an open question whether or not Farage is the man to make them a kind of viable party of government. That kind of sparks far more back biting and controversy and briefings and statements. You also saw the reporting to the police of allegations of verbal threats allegedly made by Rupert Lowe against reform party chairman. He's a use of which is now being looked into by the police. And since then a whole range of debates and anger and outrage in different directions on social media within people within the kind of reform camp. It obviously goes about saying that this kind of spat this kind of very open civil war as it were is going to be damaging to any party which wants to present a united front and so on. It's not entirely clear as at this point whether or not this is shown up in the polls, reform seems to be maintaining a pretty steady position. But I think and I feel we'll get into this. This argument on the one hand is this kind of question about what has actually happened in this case, what is the truth or otherwise of these particular allegations. But then there's this whole other context which is a kind of emerging political rift amongst some figures in reform, particularly Rupert Lowe and Farage. Also amongst some of their more kind of vocal online boosters as to what direction the party should go in. So it's kind of difficult to separate all of these parts. But yeah, an incredible story. I can't remember a blow up like it, even a kind of long history of blow ups and people being pushed out of various other parties that Farage has led over the years after controversies such as this. So it's new territory, it feels like. Definitely. And Riki, I mean, assuming this is a political row, we are seeing, you know, some positions being staked out. It seems to be as Thomas alluded to between this kind of more online faction of the right and maybe the sort of more traditional populism of Nigel Farage. Could you just sort of skate out, stake out some of the positions that being taken? So I think that when it comes to reform, there's various fault lines which exist. I think that when you talk to about the very online right, you're talking about people who have quite serious anxieties surrounding demographic change, the presence of Islam in modern Britain. And I just don't think that Nigel Farage is in that space. You talk about traditional populism there, where he has strong views on immigration and asylum, which is certainly to the right of the mainstream Conservative Party. But I don't think he necessarily shares those serious anxieties over the way Britain has been demographically transformed. And I think that when he's spoken about Islam and British Muslims more generally, he's adopted a more conciliatory tone, in my view, compared to those pro-reform, very online supporters. So I think that Rupert Lowe and the very online right, they're seen by Farage as somewhat of an inconvenience. I think that what Nigel Farage is trying to do here is professionalise the party's image. Now, some of his detractors will say he's trying to sanitise the party. But I think he's trying to do that with the party chairman, Zia Yusuf, and the fact that Zia Yusuf is party chairman has not gone down very well with the very online right, and some of him quite clearly have anti-Muslim prejudices. There's no two ways about that. So there's various factors at play. There are fault lines there. But in terms of this psychodrama, how much it damages reform in the polls, that remains to be seen. But it certainly made the party look quite incompetent. You have a parliamentary party there, which are five MPs, now has dropped down to four after low suspension, at descending into civil war. But I think one thing that's gone largely under the radar is the fact that the pro-Gaza independent alliance of five MPs, meaning that they have now more MPs than reform, probably come across as a more cohesive and professional collective in the House of Commons. And I think that's because they have more of an intellectual foundation. And I think that if this reform psychodrama for me, along with the ongoing problems with the Conservative Party, the British political right is coming across a somewhat of an intellectual wasteland. And Tom, I mean, there is obviously on the online right, Rupert Lowe is their man. I mean, in fact, even Elon Musk hinted earlier this year, maybe perhaps this is where the row originally stems from. The Nigel Farage isn't the man for the job, but Rupert Lowe's got something worth about him. But the public has no idea who Rupert Lowe is, whereas they do know Farage. They know what Farage is about. And, you know, obviously lots of people like him. I know that's one thing which really needs to be staked out very clearly here, because if you were to just pay attention to what's going on, on X, you would think that a great oak of British populism had been felled in the form of Rupert Lowe, that this is a kind of suicidal decision by Nigel Farage, but you just look at the polling data. I mean, Hugo polled reform voters and found that he was the fourth most popular MP amongst the five reform MPs. They found that 48% of reform voters didn't even know enough to offer a view on who he was. And if you look at the public at Lars, that rises to 68%, JL Partners did a poll where they showed a sample of voters a picture of Rupert Lowe, and they found that about 86% of the public had no idea who he was. And this is after his name has been kind of given more prominence than it ever had previously in our kind of political discussion. I mean, why 71% of reform voters had no idea who he was. So even though one could say that having a political party that wants to be a serious contender for government being so kind of top heavy and so reliant on one particular figure in the form of Nigel Farage, that doesn't change the fact that the idea that this is going to do tremendous damage to them, because Rupert Lowe is so beloved across the country, is plain wrong, and is obviously indicative of the online right making the same kind of mistakes that the online left did about 10 years ago, which is to confuse X for the country, just as the left used to confuse Twitter for the country. Going back to the very beginning, of course, people, any political candidate should be given due process. Anyone should be given due process. There's a lot within these allegations, which are confusing, the kind of sequencing of them will raise a lot of questions. It is worth saying that if you look particularly at these claims that have been given to the Metropolitan Police, I don't think you have to be an unfeeling individual to wonder why the use of a man in his late 30s was so threatened by the comments made by a man in his late 60s that he waited three months to report this to the constabulary. These are reasonable questions to ask, but it clearly does also map over a general political divide and disagreement, which has been going on between the low online faction and the Farah's party machinery, as it were, in which, once again, I think it's clear which is more on the side of the voters. It's worth remembering that Elon Musk endorsement of Lowe, where when Elon Musk was running around saying that Nigel Farah didn't have what it took to leave the party, and he hadn't heard much about Lowe. He liked the cut of his jib, as it were. It's worth remembering what that row was about. It was about the fact that Nigel Farah was being criticized for being too harsh on Tommy Robinson, whereas Rupert Lowe put out a slightly oddly worded statement which seemed to give Tommy Robinson credit for the work he'd done on the grooming gangs, and basically trying to cut a more conciliatory posture towards Robinson, a man who, a very small proportion of the British public, have a positive opinion of. Again, I think it's clear that you've got Farah on one side, who, again, the right some wrongs to this particular side, recognizes that the factions within his party, who want to either embrace or at least play footsy with more extreme elements within right-wing politics, are not only wrong, but on to a loser within this. I mean, it is worth saying that in that Daily Mail interview that blew all of this up, in which Rupert Lowe made these comments about Farah's origin, his messianic qualities and so on, there's a quote in there where he talks about what he would do with illegal migrants, where he says that he would put them in a tented encampment with the minimum of food, and like an island off the coast of England and Scotland, and let the midges do the rest. This is not the language of someone who is just airing reasonable concerns about illegal migration and the need to deal with foreign criminals. This is clearly broaching into a pretty unsavory kind of territory, and something that probably would have been the focus for a lot of political discussion, if the story wasn't infighting within reform, rather than these particular comments that have been made. I mean, there's been a lot of discussion about Ben Habib as well, the kind of former co-deputy leader of reform, who had his position taken away when Farah's came back, and Farah's made it pretty clear that he didn't have much time. Habib, many people, saying that that was largely about Habib's criticisms of the party for not being particularly democratic, for being very top-down, for being then a limited company, supposedly it's been democratised since then, but a lot of people are still not convinced that that's actually taken place. But I also saw Ben Habib on TalkTV one day, suggesting that what the reform policy would be about channel boats, migrants, would be that they would push the boats back, and that if the dinghy in question refused to turn back, or if, as sometimes happens, the migrants jumped into the sea in order to evade capture. He would first give them another dinghy in order to try and continue the operation. And when pushed by Julia Hartley-Burris to whether or not they should be allowed to drown, he basically said yes, he said we shouldn't infantilise these people. These are unpleasant positions to hold. These are not positions which are going to endear you to a large amount of the British electorate. So the idea being put about by this kind of faction that actually the real answer is a breakaway party, and that Farah's is a busted flush, he's become wokies like a squish liberal or whatever. It's as much as anything else that's out of touch with reality, and out of touch with the British public are who are concerned about migration, but they don't want to indulge in this kind of nonsense. Yeah, I mean it's almost, you could call it vice-signaling, couldn't you, Akiba? I mean, but maybe they do hold these views, but certainly the public doesn't want to see people dying in the channel. They want to have a sensible, robust immigration policy. That's very different from what it seems to be being proposed by some on the right of reform. No, absolutely, I think the mainstream public opinion in the UK is to support a well-managed immigration system, controlled immigration, which is based on quantity and quality control, and to have a more selective asylum policy, which was I should be prioritising women and girls who are currently being left by the wayside because of male-dominated illegal migration on the English south coast. And I think that is the position that an insurgent challenger party of the right such as reform should hold. But I think a lot of what we've discussed, a lot of this is just as you say, vice-signaling. It's a huge distraction, but I think that when the average members of the British public hear those kinds of statements, they're more likely to be repelled by reform, as opposed to being attracted to it, and I think that Nigel Farage understands that. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think reform should be some kind of one-man band. I think that some of the comments that Rupert Lo made in that interview with the Daily Mail, I think that they were quite constructive. I think that to be a successful political party, you need to be cohesive, you need to have a strong team, and you need to come up with practical policy ideas. But the problem is that Rupert Lo himself then makes the kind of interventions which work against that more sensible, practical politics. And I think that it should be told that the idea that Rupert Lo is some kind of saviour for the anti-tory political right, if that's the case, that's a crime shame for the anti-tory political right. You're talking about someone who decided to hold a local straw poll in Great Yarmouth before he decided to vote against this is to dying Bill Aids' second reading. So they're not in the much of the way of intellectual credibility in that sense. 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Go to shopify.co.uk/spiked to take your business to the next level today. That's shopify.co.uk/spiked. The best AI assistant isn't one that knows the whole world. It's one that knows your world. A custom assistant built on Watson X with IBM's granite models can leverage your trusted data, be easily trained on your workflows, and integrate with your apps. It can be tuned to do just what you need, because the more AI knows about your world, the more it can help you do. Learn more at IBM.com/productivity. IBM, let's create. Right, let's talk about what's happened in Romania. So the latest is that the lead candidate, or the man topping the polls in the Romanian presidential elections, has been barred from standing. Now, they did actually hold a first round of these elections last year. He came top. They then have a sort of second round, similar to the French system, where they whittle the candidates down. The second round was cancelled, the result of the first round was annulled, and now we've discovered that in the rerun election, the lead candidate won't be allowed to run. Now, this is based on allegations of Russian interference, interference from TikTok. But Tom, however it's dressed up, whatever language is used to excuse this, this is just an anti-democratic power grab from the establishment. Now, absolutely, we describe it on spite of the coup against democracy, and regardless of what you think of the characters and the protagonists involved, that's absolutely what it is here. I mean, if you think about the allegations that are being made, the substance of them, it's that the Romanian sort of secret services detected this kind of activity on TikTok and run up to the election, supposedly from Russian bot farms, and then as a consequence of that, the whole election is completely null and void. This is utterly outrageous, even if the full extent of those allegations are true, even if it's absolutely clear that that's where it's coming from. You're really suggesting your own citizens, so idiotic, that they're going to be swayed by memes and activity on social media, rather than the actual issues in front of them. And it's also quite clear from that first round, which was originally annulled, as you say, by the Supreme Court before we got to this point, of actually barring Dorjescu from a potential future poll, it was quite clear that the thing that was motoring his rise, as well as the drubbing that the mainstream party did, the centre left and centre right, and what it actually received, was because people were furious with the establishment. The candidate who came second, who was also an insurgent candidate, was a sort of liberal kind of former TV journalist. This is also somebody who kind of came completely out of nowhere. And despite not sharing the kind of oddball, ultra-nationalist policies of Mr. Dorjescu, it also condemned this as a fundamental affront to democracy. It's incredible how little in the way of condemnation that has come the remaining establishment's way for doing this. But at the same time, I suppose that makes a lot of sense when you've got a European Union, and it's kind of leading powers, which have often engaged in tactics like this. Maybe not as stark, maybe not as brazenly, as brazenly and explicit, as you say. But I dare say there'll be some people within Brussels who are looking on what was going on in Romania in terms of crushing this insurgent with a certain amount of envy. I think maybe there's tips to be gained from that. So, as I say, it's an outrageous front to democracy, but it feels like the kind of continuation, the kind of logical end point of what has been going on in the European mainland for quite some time now. Definitely. And on the EU front, we did have Thierry Bretton, who by that point had retired as an EU commissioner. But he basically endorsed this. He said this is ahead of the German elections, that maybe we could look into doing something similar there, if the AFD were to have won those elections. So, there's clearly, you know, there is an anti-democratic mood in the EU, and some EU leaders are more willing to say that explicitly than others have to keep. No, absolutely. And I think that it's a real problem that we have mainstream politicians when they're experiencing electoral outcomes that they don't like. Instead of looking inwards, they'd rather shed accountability and externalise the blame on the Kremlin. Now, of course, there's a possibility that we've seen democratic elections being contaminated by Russian interference. That is a possibility. But I think that there's no doubt in my mind that there's a great deal of anti-establishment sentiment across much of Europe, which is driving these electoral results. And I think in the case of Romania, it does increasingly look very much like a stitcher. You're talking about a candidate who did win the first round. And I think just to simply say, he won just because of TikTok, Kremlin-sponsored TikTok accounts. I think it's absolutely remarkable that the mainstream parties in Romania refused to take responsibility for that result. And instead of treating it as some sort of wake-up call, they seem to have found the authoritarian appetite. So I think generally, you see in much of Europe now, that there's a great deal of public disillusionment with the mainstream parties. And I think we also saw that in the German federal election, crucially, especially among young people. Now, there's a great deal of talk about the AFD, and naturally, they performed very well. But I think also a big story was the man of young people that voted for Delinka, the left, in Germany as well. So what you're seeing here is you're seeing a growing number of voters in European societies becoming attracted to non-mainstream, some would say radical alternatives. And I think that instead of blaming so-called hostile foreign regimes, I think that some of the mainstream parties, they should have a serious period of introspection. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's Romania and Germany are good to countries to compare, because in both cases, you have a lot of the time, the main parties working together in grand coalition really can't put a cigarette paper between them. And that obviously leads people to seek out alternatives to the mainstream. And of course, we've seen this populist wave across Europe, particularly in the wake of the pandemic. There's similar problems that everywhere else has had terrible inflation, low growth. You know, the mainstream just isn't actually offering anything for people to want to endorse it. The technocratic solutions actually don't work. Yeah, and all they have in response is authoritarianism. I mean, the European elites have become increasingly authoritarian as their authority has been called into question. I mean, there's a very long history of ignoring referenda against the European Union's way or when, you know, Greece and Italy were hit by the debt crisis effectively, pushing through a kind of technocratic coup of their elected governments to end up with leaders of those countries that were more amenable to what Brussels wanted them to do. And what's striking now is how much more explicit the kind of authoritarianism is coming. There's the Romania case, which is a national establishment, national elite, but nevertheless, I think, is indicative of where things are going. But you'll see that in Germany, of course. It wasn't that long ago that the then SPD government and leading figures within it were flirting with the idea of banning the AFD outright. Yeah. I don't think they'll get away with that now, that it's essentially the main party of opposition. But nevertheless, this is extreme anti-democratic position, which is being staked out, which only seems bound to, you know, essentially further kind of in flame or kind of sense that the establishment doesn't want to listen to you. And they can dress it up however they like, whether it's Russian disinformation or whether it's the idea that these parties are a threat to democracy or what have you. But if you're in the business of cancelling elections or banning political parties, I think we all know who the primary threat to democracy actually is. The question you always ask about kind of the technocratic elites is there ever going to be a point in which they kind of wake up and know the coffee, like just trying to make some adjustment to what voters are actually concerned about, recognize how fundamentally illegitimate their regimes are, particularly across the EU, which is a, you know, a technocratic, anti-democratic institution by design. But apart from maybe around the edges, there's no indication of that, I wouldn't say. The best AI assistant isn't one that knows the whole world. It's one that knows your world. A custom assistant built on Watson X with IBM's granite models can leverage your trusted data, be easily trained on your workflows, and integrate with your apps. It can be tuned to do just what you need, because the more AI knows about your world, the more it can help you do. Learn more at IBM.com/productivity. IBM, let's create. This episode is sponsored by Surfshark. 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Maybe you don't need hundreds of AI pilots, you need a holistic strategy. IBM has 65,000 consultants with Gen AI expertise who can help you design, integrate, and optimize AI solutions, so you're not just deploying AI, you're scaling it across your business. Learn more at IBM.com/consulting. IBM, let's create. And finally, Nicola Sturgeon has announced that she's resigning as an MSP. Many people might not have been aware that she was still on. She's hardly ever turned up in Parliament. She was also subjected to protests at the weekend during International Women's Day. I mean, imagine the goal, Tom, someone who has set out to destroy the rights of women in Scotland, appearing in a day on behalf of four International Women's Day. It's clear that that issue, the transgender issue, is going to be her legacy. No, absolutely. I mean, that and the kind of grubby business which erupted with police Scotland and the kind of, and the sort of Sturgeon set within the SMP afterwards, which is a very difficult thing to talk about for legal reasons. But I think those two things together, the gender bill and all that came after it, and that will be what Nicola Sturgeon is remembered for. Fundamentally, this was supposed to be a politician whose main aim was to, again, give Scotland the right of self-determination, and yet she basically torched her entire premiership for the right of sex offenders to go into women's prisons. It tells you something about where kind of left technocratic parties are at the moment, which is that even their supposed stated primary aims can be subordinated to the kind of elite hysterias of the day, particularly around identity politics and so on. And Nicola Sturgeon is a great example of that. I mean, she's torched her legacy over something which was never really supposed to be why she was in politics in the first place. Certainly not someone who always up to position herself as a feminist, despite the fact she tried to completely eviscerate women's rights in Scotland. And Rekke, probably one of my favourite quotes from Nicola Sturgeon, was when she was talking about her critics, those who criticised the gender bill must be misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, of course, and possibly racist as well. (LAUGHS) To think that's a fair criticism of people who stand up for women's rights. Well, it was an absolute remark. I think that she's responsible for much of the radical transgenderism which spiraled out of control in recent years. And I think her legacy is actually a very poor one. I think she's left the Scottish independence movement in fairly weak condition. I'm quite pleased about that because I'm a unionist. But I think that this idea that she has been a defender of women's rights, she's been the exact opposite in my view. I think that a lot of the gender identitarian politics that she peddled, especially as leader of the SNP, it threatened women's rights. And she clearly didn't seem to understand those perfectly legitimate concerns when it came to sensitive female-only spaces such as rape crisis centres, domestic violence, sanctuaries, women's prisons as well, especially with the Isla Bryson case. So I think that overall her political legacy is a very poor one. Tom's obviously talked about that grubby business. We won't get into that too much. But overall, I think that here was a politician who, much of the mainstream liberal media thought she was a sensible politician. She was polished, a sophisticated politician. But I'll have to strongly disagree with them on that one. And Tom, it feels like Nicola Sturgeon is a piece of a certain type of politician that they all seem to be on the way out. We've just had Justin Trudeau as left Canada. Jacinda Ardern has been gone for a while. That sort of woke technocratic, but also authoritarian type. Absolutely. I think the authoritarianism is one of the main throughlines of regime like Sturgeon or Trudeau's or so on. These people who generally get presented as liberal, you know, small-level, largely, all depending on the party that you're talking about. And yet have been fundamentally illiberal. I mean, the SMP is a great example. This is almost as soon as they get into power despite presenting themselves as people who think Scots and their rights should be respected and that they should have self-determination and so on. Didn't think that Scots should be trusted to raise their own children. There should be this named person scheme. We had a state-approved guardian for every child in the country. One of the first things they did when they got in power was to ban offensive football chants who, of course, introduced this hate crime act, which criminalized even, you know, dinner table conversations. The authoritarianism is very much deep. And I think as well as the idea that these people are in any sense kind of liberal doesn't make any sense. But also the idea that they're progressive when they're going around suggesting that women who complain about men invading their spaces, that campaigners, dogged campaigners for women's rights, are concerned about the presence of a double rapist in a women's prison. The fact that she was the politician who was saying these people are not only wrong, but they're maligned, that they are hateful and whatever, just shows you what a topsy-turvy world we now live in, which is, again, putting the rapists in a women's prison is the respectable, the position, the hold. It's crazy. But I'm always struck by how kind of carried away by these things people can be, even having like a Nicholas Durgent's case, only seeming to kind of become preoccupied with that issue not that long ago. Yeah. Thank you so much for watching the spiked podcast. We'll be back at the same time next week. In the meantime, why not subscribe to Spike's YouTube channel and then click the bell so you're always alerted whenever there's some new content. Spiked is producing more videos than ever from podcasts like this one to interviews to our series of polemics. You really, really don't want to miss out on it. Plus, to get your daily dose of spiked, just go to spiked-online.com. That's our website at spiked-online.com.