Remember when we explored Toxic Masculinity? This week, we're diving into its counterpart: Toxic Femininity. We're unpacking the outdated expectations of what women are “supposed” to look like, from rigid beauty standards to unrealistic norms. We'll be asking the questions, "Why do we do this to ourselves?" and "Is this what God asked us to be?" Join us as we reflect on these gender norms and search for a more authentic way to define ourselves beyond the stereotypes.
We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism
Ep. 15: Toxic Beauty and the Traditional Beast
(upbeat music) - Welcome to the We Are More podcast. My name is Alyssa. - And my name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. - We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word. And apparently that's controversial. - Get comfy. (laughs) (upbeat music) - Oh my gosh, you've started recording. - Yeah, you're right. - Which one am I? - The bottom one of this. Yeah, you're the bottom. - It's 'cause I'm second born. - Yeah, that's why. But you did sit in the big chair today. We should probably say hello so that any of this counts. - Hello. Baby, can't you see? - Oh no. (laughs) - Okay, Bree, read your line. - Baby, can't you see? (laughs) We're gonna get copyrighted and bring him into-- - You know that, I'm toxic. - I do know that about you, actually. - Like sludge? - Yeah. (laughs) - I actually imagine the creature from, what was that movie with Robin Williams? - Flubber. - Yes. I envision Flubber. - I thought you were gonna talk like, the creature from the something Lagoon. Dark Lagoon? - Black Lagoon. - Black Lagoon. - Have you seen that? I don't think I've ever seen that movie. That was before. - I've barely seen Flubber. Mom wouldn't let us watch Flubber when we were kids. - I don't know why, 'cause I mean-- - 'Cause I recently watched it, not recently, with it like a couple years ago. And it's incredibly boring. - Am I gonna make people mad about that? - Probably, because people love Robin Williams. - I love Robin Williams, but I didn't like Flubber. - I'm sorry. - So today, I feel like I start every episode with-- - So today. - So today. Also today, we have given up on telling you guys which episode number it is at the beginning of the episode. - We have no idea. - We literally have no clue. - And what's actually more frustrating is sometimes I'll be like, "Olyssa, what episode just came out?" And she's like, "Twelve." That's not what I mean. I mean, what did we talk about? I have no idea. But the problem is, we'll sit down to record and we'll start recording and we'll be like, "Oh yeah, hey, this is episode 13." But we're not used to recording every week yet. And it's not episode 13. It's episode something totally different. - I have no idea. - And then I have to cut that whole section. - Yeah, we're done with that. - Today, we're talking about toxic femininity. - Yes, today on this, the episode of today. - On this, the day of my daughter's wedding. - What is that from? - On this, the day my daughter's wedding, I think it's a godfather. - I've never seen that. - I've never seen that. - So we're just quoting randomness now. Okay, good. - So I could quote from that movie, Summer Magic. - That was a great movie. - ♪ Femininity, femininity ♪ - There's no way anyone has seen that. His us and no one else. - It has Hayley Mills and it's old. It's nostalgic for me. I like that movie, but it's, I mean, it's an old movie. It comes with all the things that old movies come with. - As a 2024 feminist, I cannot stand behind the movie, but it's great, highly recommended. I mean, I feel like we could say that about most of the movies that we have watched. There's another song in that movie called the, what is it called? - Are you talking about the bug one? - Oh, the ugly bug ball. - Ugly bug ball. - Ugly bug, bug, bug, bug, bug, bug, bug. - I don't think that's the right tune. - It is. - I don't think so. - It is. - That one really is a classic. That one, I think won some awards or something. It was weird. - Why? - I don't know. It was very out of place too. It was just this man walking around, he found a bug, he started singing about it. - To a child. - No, he just, again, pushed the child. - Well, he knew the child. But still. Still. You should watch the movie and figure that out by yourself. - I don't know that you should watch the movie. - We should have a movie club, like a book club. We could have a playlist, a music playlist, and a movie watch playlist. - You have a lot more faith in our ability to do things than I do. - I have a playlist. You do have a playlist, but it is not public, it is for you and I. - I think it is public, actually. - The people can't listen to it. - The people. - The people. - The people. (laughs) What if they want to hear our ridiculous music? (laughs) It's on my YouTube music account. So that's where the people can do that. - That's where the people can find it. - If you're asking, how about I give you a new song recommendation every day? If you're one of my family members, probably don't listen to it, 'cause I listen to a lot of inappropriate music. Let's see. Brie has a whole playlist called Not For Mom. - Not For Mom. - Sorry, Mom. - You can listen to Taylor Swift's The Man. - Hey, that's a great one. - It only cusses two times. - Yeah, that's probably my favorite Taylor Swift song. It's a great song. - Today we're talking about toxic femininity. (laughs) So far, it does tie in, to be fair, to Taylor Swift. Because she talks about toxic masculinity a lot. - And now we're just flipping the script. - I just almost quoted Taylor Swift again. - Do it. I can't, she cusses. - Oh, you flip the script for them, have it. You're addicted to betrayal, but you're relevant. You're terrified. - You look down like 10 seconds of something before I get copyrighted. - That's karma by Taylor Swift. - Thank you for the information. No one knew that one. Everybody caught on to the summer magic. But the Taylor Swift song, you're like, what? - So today as we talk about toxic femininity, we, last week, talked about toxic masculine, no, two weeks ago, two weeks ago. - We're never gonna talk about time units ever again. - Okay. - On our last main episode. - In the past, we talked about toxic masculinity and what that looks like. And how it impacts both women and men, we had a special guest for the first time. - He's very special. - Very special. - He came up from the downstairs and talked to us. - From the beyond, from the beyond. - My husband Nathan was on the episode last week. - No, two weeks ago. - Stop talking about time. Stop. And so we talked about how that impacts everybody, how it impacts relationships and individuals and some specific individuals that are terrible. (laughing) So we're gonna talk about kind of the opposite of that and what that means. So Brie, tell us, tell us what toxic femininity means. - Well, I Googled it. - Proud of you. - As per what I usually do. And I found a good old fashioned definition. - An old fashioned one? - Definitions in general are old fashioned, so. - Obviously, I found that. If you Google toxic femininity, it says it's a rigid or oppressive definition of womanhood, including pressures, women face to restrict themselves to stereotypically feminine traits and characteristics. So kind of exactly what the toxic masculine man wants. - I would say this is generally something that women are putting on themselves or that women are putting on other women. Not that men aren't involved at all, but it's something like, you think, stereotypical, what is feminine. - And I think, yeah, if you're looking at what is toxic femininity, it is gonna be women putting it on themselves or not that there's not also an aspect of that coming from the rest of the world. But in this specific context, that's women putting it on themselves. And like you said, the bigger issue is not just you putting it on you, but you putting it on every other woman that you see. - And every woman has heard this, but like when they say, "Oh girls don't do that." Girls don't talk like that. Girls don't burp and fart. - And women never poop. No, we don't. It's just not part of our biology. We hold it in. - We hold it all in, in, in, in, in. There's a guy online that makes that joke all the time. He goes, "My wife, no, she never poops." She doesn't. My worry is that there are actually men out there who think that or think things like that. Like, I have concerns. - They just don't. We just have given it up. We've evolved past it. - Some people are born now without wisdom teeth and now women don't poop. - Yeah, you progress. (laughing) You know, that sounds great. Actually, let's progress to that. Actually, we'll be fine with that. (laughing) - So stereotypical feminine traits, if you look those up, that would be cooperative, sexually submissive, passive, gentle, and driving their value from physical beauty. - You know what that makes me think of? And I think we've referenced this before, but the Duggar family, the mom, I watched a documentary on that family. And one of the other family members is like a cousin or something. Said that one of the things that drove them crazy about her the most is the way that she talks like this. And she's so gentle and quiet. And like, that's her voice. So even these traits have come out in her literal voice. And that's what the stereotypically traditional Christian femininity, whatever, like however you want to describe it, that's what it's supposed to be. - Like how you were talking about before, like you were kind of outspoken and loud about your beliefs and everything growing up. And people kind of told you that wasn't feminine or maybe you thought that about yourself. That's how I think of with this. - Women should be quiet and soft and keep their thoughts to themselves. - Because the second you become louder or that you speak out or the second that you dare to think that you have a voice in any way, you become a threat to toxic masculinity. You become a threat to the male leadership of the church or really male leadership in whatever context you find yourself. So you got to get told from a very young age, be quiet, be calm, be gentle, be submissive, and if you're anything other than that, that clearly makes you way less of a woman. - Right, it's like when people, like when you're in an argument with somebody that's really toxic, that's really toxic, and they'll dig into whatever's most important about you. Let's say that you see yourself as a very honest person. They would start calling you a liar. They would go after that aspect of your personality or maybe you find a lot of who you are in your job and they start telling you you're terrible at your job or whatever, or that your job doesn't matter. - Exactly, yes. It's the same thing, if perhaps even worse, because you start to tell women, you don't get to be a woman if you aren't these things. - You don't get to be a woman if you enjoy your career. - Right. - If you don't wanna be a stay at home mom, you don't get to be a woman if you don't wanna put on makeup when you leave the house. Or high heels, or you don't find value in makeup. Yeah, I think that's such a huge dig for anybody to, because gender can be so much of a part of who you are, not that it always is, but it can be. And so to tell someone, you just don't get to be anything. You don't get to be anything. You don't get to find yourself anywhere because you're not stereotypically feminine. - I think we should dive into the idea of beauty standards on women, 'cause I find that incredibly toxic. And just growing up, I always thought that I could never leave the house without looking beautiful. You're not allowed to leave the house in your pajama pants. You should always look your best, even if it's going to get the mail. And that does something to you as a person. You feel like, if I'm not perfect, I'm not worthy of leaving my house. - During COVID, I started going out, both of us, I think, started going out without makeup on because you'd put a mask on and that covers most of your face and then your mask is covered in makeup and whatever. So I would go to the store without makeup on, but you know, half my face was covered, so at least I wasn't offensive to the rest of the world. And then masks kind of faded away slowly. And I still was occasionally going out without makeup. And I remember the first time that I did, I think we went to like Target or something. And the first time that I went out and didn't have a mask or makeup on, and I literally felt like I shouldn't be allowed in the store. Like I should not be allowed to walk into a public space because my face in itself was so offensive to everybody. And I'm a pretty confident person, we're he's a pretty confident person. But when you're told by society at large, your entire life that you have to be the prettiest girl in the room or you're nothing, of course that's gonna screw you up. - Yeah, or women look at other women who maybe don't put in the same value to outer beauty as they do, and they look down on them. And they teach their children to look down on them. - And I think one of the ways that we've rebranded it is we've said, well, you should look presentable. That's what we've done. We've said presentable because we can't say, you have to look pretty, 'cause that's a little controversial, right? You can't tell girls you have to be pretty. Some people do, but it's almost worse. - Yeah, and you think of the difference between what is presentable for a woman versus what is presentable for a man. - Because when I get ready in the morning, now I like makeup, I like to do my hair nice. I'm not saying there's literally nothing against that. If that is something that you enjoy doing. - I just spent $100 on skin care. - No shade at all. If that is something that you take pleasure in for yourself, but when I get ready in the morning, it takes me an hour because I have to get my hair done and I have curly hair, so I have to gel it and wait for it to dry and all the fun things. And do my makeup and that takes half an hour and find clothes and that takes while and whatever. And my husband literally finds clothes and that's all. That's how he becomes presentable to the world. And no one would look at him and say, well, you don't look presentable. But if I walk out without doing all of those extra things that take me forever, then I am no longer presentable or feminine or a woman or upholding Christian standards. Because we talked about this in the Toxic Masculinity episode. Christianity tells women, not, I don't want to say Christianity actually. Toxic Christianity tells women that if you are not beautiful at all times, if you do not look perfect, if you do not maintain a beautiful womanly figure and whatever. And buy all the skincare and make yourself like 20 years old. If you don't do those things, then your husband is going to go find somebody who dies and it's going to be your fault because you weren't beautiful enough. And Toxic Femininity tells you that too. I can't say Femininity. Femininity, Femininity. I'm going to sing that the entire time. Great, I would love that if you did. Something else that I saw, it's maybe an older trend on like TikTok and Facebook, whatever. But it was these women saying, look at this. These men are saying that they prefer women without makeup. They look better without makeup, but they're showing the pictures of the women they're saying like, but she's wearing makeup, look at this. And it's supposed to be just like a natural look of makeup. Now these women are saying men can't even like you without makeup on. See, now you at least have to make your makeup look natural. And it's, you can't win no matter what you do. And they will believe the men if they say, no, your face is fine, your face is acceptable. Well, it's so part of who I am, that even when Nathan will tell me like, you look beautiful today or whatever, if I don't have makeup on, I just brush it off. It's like it goes in one ear and out the other. It doesn't necessarily, and I don't want to say it doesn't make me feel better because I appreciate that he feels that way, but there's something inside of me that has been groomed to not accept that. Yeah, and how terrible, you can't post a picture online. I, there are several pictures online of me with my kids or at Disney or whatever that I'm like, I don't like that that's up there because I don't look perfect. But the memory is still wonderful, or like on TikTok, if you go to post on there and you're like, oh, I haven't done my makeup today, look like trash. Don't worry, there's a filter to put makeup on right now to make you look presentable. Or to add a beard to yourself, and I tried that out today, and that was fun. (laughing) Hey, you know, give it a couple more days, maybe you'll have one. I just plugged it yesterday. (laughing) Another toxic trade. (laughing) Oh, shaving, we could get into that. I hate shaving. (laughing) Do you want me to read this quote or would you like to read it? So a quote that "refound verywellminds.com" from Zova7, thank you. (laughing) Says that. (laughing) It's so weird. (laughing) Says if toxic masculinity encourages violence and domination in order to uphold an unequal power dynamic, then toxic femininity supports silent acceptance of violence and domination in order to survive. I really liked that quote because I wanted to dive into that word survive at the end. It's not like bear grills, like camping, hiking, fishing, survival skills. It's, women are constantly trying to stay alive, that their existence is always in question. We'll bounce that back to the, we talked about this recently, - Never say timely. - Recently we talked about this. The bear versus man debate where women are asked, would you rather, if you're walking alone in a forest, would you rather come upon a bear or on a man? And women are saying they'd rather come upon the bear because we're fighting so hard to survive that that's how scared we have to be of men. Not every man, but enough of them that we have to constantly be on guard. Always. Because nothing you do as a woman is ever right. I think about the Barbie quote where essentially she's saying, you can never do anything right. Toxic femininity tells you you have to wear makeup because you have to be beautiful because you are a woman. But if you wear too much makeup and a man finds you in an alley and takes advantage of you, that's your fault. Because you were being too beautiful. Or what clothes you're wearing. And you may think I'm supposed to wear dresses. That's a, I don't want to say it, it's a very conservative. - Yeah, it's a very conservative standpoint where women must wear dresses. Or like you look at the Amish, women must wear dresses. But then you flip the script and if you wear sundresses, that's the wrong kind of dress. And you're showing too much of your skin and you can't do that. - I'll do your show a shoulder. - Yeah, it's insane. - Clavicle. - And anything you do wrong, excuses, violence, for men, somehow. How is that possible? - And toxic femininity only encourages that viewpoint. - Yes. You even look in court cases and you'll see in cases of violence against women and things like that. They'll ask the question, to the woman, were you drunk? Were you, I don't want-- - Were you leading him on? - Yeah, were you leading him on? Were you saying suggestive things? Had you said suggestive things earlier? Did you give him your phone number? Maybe that encouraged him, whatever. So even in our legal system, now I'm not saying the judges are necessarily siding with this. But even within our legal system, this is happening. - Yeah. - Even in the broader culture, not just in church culture. - And women know that, right? So again, we're just trying to survive. And this concept of toxic femininity, I have said femininity like four times. - We could make this a drinking game again. - Well good. - Every time we mispronounce femininity, people get trashed around the world, great. But toxic femininity responds to toxic masculinity in saying going to do this, like they said, to survive, to keep going. And imagine how toxic those things become when they meet. You know, toxic masculinity is horrifying on its own. Toxic femininity is awful on its own. Both are damaging to each individual person. But you bring them together, you bring a man that believes that in contact with a woman who believes that. And that's when tragedy happens. That's when massive abuse happens. - Well, you were saying earlier that the man is going to get more power, get more dominance, get more violent, but the woman is going to get abused or die. - Right. - It could lead to her death, right? - And it's not good for the man either. He's not like doing great. We talked before about how men are less likely to seek mental health, things like that. This isn't good for men either. But at the end of the day, they still have power. They're still in power. They're still sitting at the top of the hill, looking down at everyone else. The woman is literally not able to keep going. She is beaten, she is bruised. She can only submit and be passive so much before she no longer exists. - Right, exactly. And we see this in culture at large, but we see it so heavily in the Christian church and unfortunately so heavily in our own lives, not our personal lives, but in the world around us specifically. We're watching this happen. We're watching this toxic femininity just destroy who people are, destroy their personalities, destroy the vibrant humans that they used to be. And because they're told that you need to be married in order to be of any value to our society and our culture and our people in general. But when you do get married, your dreams, your everything about you ceases to exist because your now biggest calling is to build up the dreams of your husband because he is your purpose now. - And to submit to his every desire, to his every decision, whether they're godly or not. And I have said this before, but I don't believe that God is okay with women following their husbands and to sin just because they're submitting. Now there are churches that absolutely are teaching that. - And we've heard them preach that. - A hundred percent. If your husband is sinning, still follow him and you will be blessed for doing your part, for submitting because that's your role. Your entire role is to submit. That's not doing you any good as the woman or your husband. It's not doing him any good either. - And also I've seen so many times where the men are so praised and so loved in churches that their true personality is not there. - No. - So people think you're a great guy. Oh, everybody else around this guy loves him. So what's wrong with me is a woman that he's not that way with me at home. He's not that way. So what's wrong with me now? - There are so many cases of abuse that come out. There's someone I follow on Facebook and she was abused as a child. And when she came out with that story, people said, no, you're crazy because look what a wonderful guy he is. They didn't take her seriously and she couldn't take herself seriously to some degree because look what a wonderful guy he is. He wouldn't do something so terrible. You must have made it up in your head. If he's a terrible guy to you behind closed doors, whatever position this person is in, whether it's a parent, whether it's a husband, whether it's a partner of any kind, a friend, whatever. I don't care. If he's like that to you behind closed doors, that's who he is. - Well, they say who you truly are is who you are when no one else is watching. - Yes. I am most myself when I'm around Brie, when I'm around Nathan, when I'm around my mom. That's when I'm most who I am because I'm the most comfortable around those people. And I know that they're gonna stick around. So, I might not. - You have no choice. You are my sister and you love me. Hold my hand when you say that. I mean, I guess we've made the point, but who he is to you is who he is. So whatever anyone else is telling you, they're full of crap, not because they're intentionally full of crap, but because they don't know and you know. Trust yourself. - Trust yourself. Girl. - Trust yourself. And think of that. Think of all of these descriptors that you said earlier, cooperative, sexually submissive, passive, gentle, driving value from physical beauty. All of those things lend themselves to not trusting yourself. To questioning everything you've ever thought or seen or whatever, so he can get away with whatever he wants. - Because stereotypically, that is what womanhood is. Yes, that is what society and conservative Christian worlds are telling women that that is what womanhood is about. Being cooperative, being sexually submissive, being passive, being gentle, being told that beauty is the only thing that matters. How shallow, how small are we making women? What a good transition, Brianna. Are you prepared? (speaks in foreign language) (laughing) No one's gonna get that. I'm trying to find a fun transition noise. Like when you were little and you were listening to those Disney tapes, then they would turn the page and it was like, (speaks in foreign language) (laughing) - Would that be nice to have? - Yeah, you could just record that and-- - Okay. - That's what we'll put in. (speaks in foreign language) - Stop it, you've already done it twice. (speaks in foreign language) (laughing) Stop. (laughing) So anyway, so instead of that, instead of what society has told us womanhood is, what does the Bible tell us that womanhood is? - Mm, bleeding. - What? (laughing) - So naturally become a woman. (laughing) I'd love to get that out. (laughing) No, you're not. - So there are a lot of incredible women in the Bible and we've talked about a few of them. We will talk about more 'cause that's what we do. That's what we live for. (laughing) To help unfortunate woman folk. Like yourselves. (laughing) But ourselves, no one else to turn to. I didn't think we were gonna get the whole quote. Turns out we're lucky and we are. (laughing) So the person that we wanted to focus on today is Deborah. Big Deb. Make it a comeback, a reprise. I don't think we've mentioned Big Deb in quite some time. If you want a good old fashioned laugh, (laughing) what was it, episode two, when we talk about? Yeah, episode two. Episode two, we talked about just like stories of strong women from the Bible and we talk about Big Deb and she is just a national treasure. A national treasure and an international treasure. She's not from our nation. (laughing) I know several Deborahs. (laughing) How dare you? This particular Deborah. (laughing) So if you haven't heard that episode again, go back and listen once you're done with this one. We've gotta make that clear. Finish this one. It's good. We're having fun. (laughing) But I'll kind of just briefly go into who Deborah was. And she's an example of biblical womanhood. Mm-hmm. Biblical femininity. Important enough to be written in the pages of the Bible. Not just written, like her whole story is told. She is an important, she's in the book of judges because it is like a compilation of quite a few. But she is a featured very, very important piece of the book of judges. So this is from the Jewish Women's Archive. And it says that Deborah is one of the major judges, which was a charismatic military leader, not a judicial figure. So think of her as a military leader. That's what she would have been. And the story of how Israel takes the land of Canaan. She is the only female judge mentioned and the only one to be called a prophet. So for all of the men out there who are telling women. You can't. You can't prophesy. Exactly. She was a prophet. She was called a prophet. In the Bible. In the Bible. And she was the only one described as performing a judicial function. So the story of Deborah is long and complicated, but essentially a man named Barack comes to her and he says, "Hey, we gotta go battle these people." And she says, "Okay, go." (laughing) He basically says, "I won't go without you." And she then in turn says, "All right, I'll go." But no, that the honor of this battle will go to a woman. Now, that is often used in Christian circles as like an insult. Like she was insulting his manhood. Mind you, Barack doesn't care. He doesn't give a crap. He was like, "I'm not gonna go if you don't go with me." Please, go with me. I don't care. Let's go. I need my buddy. There's nothing here saying that he was insulted by what she said. He wasn't like, "Well, if it's gonna go to a woman, "then forget that, I'm gonna go because I'm a man "and it should go to me." No, he was like, "Okay, whatever, let's go." - So she was just telling him as a fact, it's not gonna go to, actually, either of us. - Right, it's gonna go to someone else. - Right, exactly. And so they go, they do battle, one guy escapes, and this is kind of part of a different part of the story, but-- - Do you wanna hear the whole story in great detail and great humor? - Great humor. (laughing) - Episode two, but one guy escapes, runs off, he's gonna kind of, I think, go tell everybody else, like, "Hey, come on, help us out." ♪ Tell it on the mountain ♪ - Thank you. (laughing) But he comes upon another woman named J.L. And J.L. worries me a little bit. Frankly, I'm concerned for her, okay? - I like her. - I like her too, but a little worried. So J.L. sees him, and he's like, "Hey, protect me, keep me safe, they're coming after me." Kind of demands it of her, right? - I'm gonna hide in your tent, yeah. - And she's alone, it's just her. - They did know each other, but yes. - From, like, kind of in a roundabout way, yes. And so she's like, "All right, yeah, come on in. Lay down, rest your head, you must be just so tired." - I'm gonna make it you a beverage. - Yeah, so she's playing the role of the traditional woman, right? Like, she's gonna take care of him and whatever. Meanwhile, the moron falls asleep. Who's falling asleep in this scenario? People are literally coming to kill him. He's in essentially a stranger's house. He doesn't really know her, but he thinks she's a woman. She won't do anything, right? So J.L. grabs a tent peg. I want you to think about this, okay? What was a tent peg made of then? Wood, like splintered wood? Think of that. She takes a tent peg and the woman hammers it into his temple. - Yeah. - See, now I gotta mark this as explicit, but it's the Bible, so it's fine. - Biblical womanhood, tent pegs. - And so she kills him. Now, I gotta think that at some point during this, he woke up and was like, "Ow." - Yeah, and she still went on. - Yeah. - This is violent, okay? This is a violent, brutal murder. And then Barack and Deborah come back and they're like, "Hey, have you seen this guy?" She's like, "Oh, yeah, I think I saw him." Come on into my tent, let's check it out. And they come upon the span with a tent peg in his head. - And she's the one that won them the battle. - Right. So when you talk about femininity and womanhood and what that looks like, where are we pulling that from? Are we pulling it from society? We're supposed to not be part of society as Christians, right? We're supposed to be part of the world. Yeah, but not of it, exactly. So what are we pulling our definition of femininity from? We're pulling it from the world, absolutely. And like the 1950s world. That is not what the Bible ever said. There is nothing in the Bible that says, "And women must put on their makeup before they head into church because otherwise it will be offensive to the men." That's not a thing, no, no, no. There is nothing that says, "And women must make their husbands dinner every single night." And it must be something that he likes, including meat and potatoes. That's not a thing. We have pulled this from society. We've pulled it from our own tiny little world that we live in, not from the huge, beautiful, colorful world that God gave us. Why are we doing that? And why are we doing it in the name of God, my gosh? - Oh, again, like you said, it's a power grab. Keep women small, right. Well, and what's really sad is, so this has taken hold again with social media because of the trad wife movement. So that's like the traditional wife movement. - I googled that too. I'm proud of you. Do you want me to read it? I would love you to read it. Okay, if you Google it, the first response that comes up, it says, "A woman that embraces traditional gender roles and marriages, particularly focusing on homemaking and supporting her husband as the primary breadwinner." The term became popularized in social media and blogs around 2016 and is often associated with the conservative Christians. It's the first thing that pops up when you Google a trad wife. I hate that for us. 'Cause we sit here and we call ourselves Christians. And like for me, I do a lot of our social media stuff and I hashtag things like Christian women and biblical womanhood and whatever. And I almost don't like to do it because I know what else is coming up in those searches. And I don't want to be related to it. - Something that has happened for me too that I've really noticed about myself because I am single and I'm online dating. I tend to, when someone on their profile says that they're Christian or whatever, I almost am not attracted to that. - Yeah. - Because in my mind, I think, oh, they're looking for a trad wife and I am not that right and will never be. Yeah, you almost, it makes you want to be a quiet Christian because you don't want to be associated with this. - Well, do you think that this movement of traditional gender roles, keeping women small, keeping women in their place? Do you think that's furthering the kingdom of God or is it hurting the reputation of God's love for his people? - Well, not only that, and I think that's absolutely valid but not only that, think of how much focus is put on this topic in Christian circles, in the Christian church. You hear sermons on this absolutely constantly. Is this topic in any way, whether you're for it against it, whatever? Is it making new disciples for Jesus? Is it furthering God's kingdom? Is it doing anything that we were told to do? Or is it focusing on power? It's not doing what we're supposed to do. - And then they're making it seem like, no, no, no, this is what women want and the women are telling other women to do this and that that is what they should want. - If they are a Christian woman, you should want this. - No, if you would just submit, you would be happier. By saw this on Facebook, and it was just a repost or something. And it says, she'll submit naturally if you lead properly. - Whoa, I can say that. - Hey. And this, even strong women, even strong women like us as we sit here, there's still a part of you that's like, maybe that's what I'm supposed to be doing because it's so ingrained in everything about Christianity, not in the Bible, but in everything about the Christian church and everything about what the church has become since Christ died, not when Christ was alive, not when he was doing every wonderful thing he was doing, but since then, we've turned it into this. If men would just lead properly, then we wouldn't have a problem submitting and there's something wrong with your faith if you do not believe this. - Yes. - You don't have a space in church, you don't have a space in God's kingdom, it calls for your entire eternity into question. The pain and difficulty of this topic for us, I think can't be overstated because in diving into this, I felt at least, and I'm sure you probably felt this way too, but I felt that literally I was taking eternity into my hands and saying, well, heaven might not be accessible to me anymore because I was looking for my own place in God's kingdom as a woman, and according to the church, there wasn't one because you didn't fit into this perfect little box of what it is to be a woman. And I'm never gonna fit into that and you're never gonna fit into that and there are millions of women around the world that are never gonna fit into that, but you still have a place in heaven. God still loves you. He is not calling you to fit in that box. Other women are, the church is, toxic masculinity is, toxic femininity is. Hey, I said it right that time. - Proud of you. (laughs) - I hate, I just, it makes me-- - Makes your blood boil. - Yeah. When God's name gets stuck on all of this stupidness and even when people tolerate what we have to say about this sometimes, when church people tolerate what we have to say, you get an eye roll and it's like, "Well, you'll understand someday." Or, "I get this all the time." Well, you know, you must have just not come upon an argument with your husband yet where someone had to make a decision, where you just couldn't come to a decision together and someone had to stand up and make that decision. And it has to be someone. There has to be one CEO, one leader of the team. No. - I remember being in a group of women and them talking about their marriages or their previous marriages. And that exact topic came out like, well, if there's an argument, someone has to decide and it's the man's job to decide. And I was like, "Well, why don't you just stop "the argument and say, "neither of us can come to a conclusion right now? "Let's think on it and pray about it." And like we've said before in previous podcasts, if you were truly following what God wants you to do and you pray about it, God's gonna lead you both to the same decision. 'Cause God's not the God of confusion. Or you think about who knows more about this situation? Who has the most knowledge on this topic? Is it the husband or the wife? Then let them make the decision if you still can't come to a conclusion. But it's not, one person gets ultimate power just because you can say it. He has a weaning. Sorry, mom. That's twice this episode. Yeah, we should start recording those. I think for Nathan and I there, yes, we have come to arguments where it's very hard for us to compromise on something. But you do have to take a step back and you have to say logically, all right, maybe one of us knows more about this. Or maybe one of us is more passionate about this. Maybe one of us would be more hurt by the other decision. And so sometimes he makes the final decision and sometimes I make the final decision and that's okay. Are you looking for a partner? Or are you looking for a parent in marriage? And I think that can go both ways because from the toxic femininity standpoint, they're almost looking for a father. They're looking for someone to save them, right? They're looking for a savior, but they're not looking to God. They're looking to a man. It infantilizes women in a huge way. And we accept it because we've been groomed since children, but she's accepted. Been told that women want that, yeah. And if you don't want it, then you're not a proper woman. And on the flip side, toxic masculinity does want a mother to pick up after them, to make them dinner, to take care of all of their millions of children, to whatever, to make their lives seamless. To be a housekeeper. Yeah, hire a housekeeper. Women often get into situations where they're told you don't bring in any money. And so therefore you don't get a say in things money is really held over women, which is quite an insane thing to me because you're telling women, you can't make money. You can't go get a job. You can't contribute to the household financially, whatever. But then on the flip side, you're also telling them, because you don't financially contribute to this house, you don't get a say in anything, the money's not yours. I'm gonna hide it, wherever I feel like hiding it. I'm gonna take it from you and manipulate you financially as well. But if you look at what it would cost to hire a housekeeper and a nanny and a chauffeur and a cook. Cleaning service. All of the things that stay at home wives are doing, all of those roles, it would bankrupt you, okay? She just doesn't get paid because she's choosing to be, I forget, I saw it one time. It was like instead of calling it a stay at home spouse, it's like the servant spouse or something like that. Because this person is doing all the work at home for no pay and there's nothing wrong with that as long as they're respected in that role. As long as they have chosen that role for themselves and the other partner respects them and says, all right, yeah, I might make all the money over here, technically, but it's all both of ours because really we're both doing work together to keep everything going. - Another view that you could take on toxic femininity would be a stereotypical feminist burning your bra saying that men don't matter and they can barely turn their heads to breathe. - Yeah, I remember as a kid, we've said before feminism was a dirty word because of this concept of a stereotypical feminist and man haters. - Yeah. - I think the conservative media and the Christian church did a super good job of making the whole concept of feminism look like that. I remember watching my mom watch Fox News one time and it was this whole piece on how feminists wanna get rid of Father's Day because it focuses on men, I guess. I don't know. And at the time, because that was how I was taught to think I was like, gosh, these feminists are terrible. What is wrong with them? Father's Day isn't hurting anybody, whatever. We like barbecue. And that was my thought process. I was like, oh, well, clearly they're right. I agree with them, whatever. But now with the advantage of time and knowledge, I can look at that and say, okay, yeah, there are probably some radical feminists that are saying, yeah, let's get rid of Father's Day. We hate men, women can survive on their own, whatever. But it's few and far between. - It's like we talked about on the toxic masculinity episode. - It's the extreme mindsets that are the problem. The ones that think there's a black and white answer to everything, that is toxic. - Yes, and just as with the Christian, you don't wanna be associated with, this is an older reference, but there was a church called Westboro Baptist Church and they were picketing gay soldiers' funerals and just really, they did a lot of horrifying things. And it got so much media attention, and there were so many Christians out there saying, okay, but that's not us. They're saying they represent us, but they don't represent us. How could you begin to believe that that represents Christianity? And for feminists, I think, at least feminists who are finding themselves in the Christian church, we're saying the same thing. How could you think that of us? That's not what we're saying. - No. - There's some extreme people that are saying that, but that's not what we're saying. That's not what the concept is saying. - I just want equality. That's all I want. I wanna be looked at as a human, please. - So there's a toxic version of feminism, absolutely. - Yeah. - But I think, yeah, we're just looking for equality. There shouldn't have to be a whole podcast on this. - But there shouldn't, but we're very good at it. We're very chatty, very good. We're extremely chatty. - Bada, bada, bada, bada, bada. - I saw a TikTok today 'cause I have you seen? So there's like a song, "Bite" on the TikTok. I don't know how to describe it. I don't know what's wrong with it, but there's this video of this girl singing. I'm looking for a man in finance, trust fund. Six, five, blue eyes. So someone did a reprise of that. What did it be called a reprise spin off? I don't know. He goes, "I'm looking for a trad wife." - Good cook, blah, blah, blah, blah. - Gross, I don't know what else he said. - I mean, they're both gross, really. - They're both gross. - I think we do focus, again, we always focus on how things affect women because we're women and that's the only perspective that we have, but it's gross from either direction. It's terrible for a man to sit there and say, yeah, I want this woman that's gonna cook and clean for me and that treats me like a child and whatever, that's terrible. It's also terrible for women to say, I want a man that looks like this and makes this much money because I need stability and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. - Although. (laughs) - Don't hold the woman's hand up. - It's not necessarily bad if it's a business arrangement. - Your marriage is gonna be a business arrangement? Well, it is if you marry that one guy into your job. - So I think we've referenced several different episodes of our podcast and if you perhaps wanna go on a bender (laughs) feel free to go back all the way to episode one, listen all the way to whatever episode this is. Honestly though, take some breaks. I'm scared for you if you've done that because that means you've spent a significant amount of time with the two of us idiots. - Yeah. (laughs) - In a very short, like, short span of time. So do you need help? (laughs) Are you okay? - Seek therapy. It's like that part of Gilmore Girls where Lorelei gives Rory, if you haven't seen Gilmore Girls, just skip this part 'cause you won't get it. - I love Gilmore Girls so much so it's one of my comfort shows. - We've gotta re-watch it. But if you've not seen it, so the mom, her daughter and her friends are wasted, like they are smashed and they wake up, hung over the next day and so the mom brings them tacos and she brings the two girls tacos and then she brings her daughter a burrito and she says, "I gave this one to you "because I know you can handle it. "We've been training for this our whole lives." And see, Bri and I, we've been training for this our whole lives. We know how stupid we are. We're okay with it. - We could sit and talk like those for 10 more hours. (laughs) - Not in the seat, but maybe another time. But I worry for you, if you've spent, what are we at? Probably 13 hours with us at this point. Take some breaks, get some water, hydrate, go for a walk, then come back and laugh with us. (laughs) Hydrate, stay healthy. - Okay guys, I wanna go eat dinner now. Stay tuned, we're gonna be talking about other things in other episodes. - But we're not gonna reference them 'cause we don't know which episode this is. - We don't know what, but if you would like us to talk about anything at all, under the sun. - Nope, not anything. There are topics we won't talk about. - I will talk about pretty much anything. - Great, give us a call. (laughs) - Don't call us. Send us a message, send us a carrier pigeon. You can find us on social media, Instagram, TikTok. I think we have a Facebook. - We have an email if you wanna email us. - Okay, then tell them. - And so on and so forth. And this is a conclusion. And thank you and goodbye. Rest in peace. And what not? (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]