Radio Miraya
2786: Democracy In Action: Climate change and Governance
(tense music) - Democracy in action. A program on how a state functions, featuring in-depth discussions with experts on governance, politics and decision-making. Tune in, as every week we explore the complexities of governance. What is democracy? What is your role as a citizen? All these and more in Democracy in Action, Thursday at 9 a.m. with a repeat at 9 p.m. the same day, stay informed and engage with democracy in action. Radio me right, the voice of peace. (tense music) (birds chirping) (tense music) - Good morning and welcome to Democracy in Action on Radio Miraya. My name is Lucy Kidan. Today we are discussing climate change and governance. We have had this conversation here before and so we're just looking at it again. And this morning we should look at how climate change affects peace and security and also understand some of the ways government and partners can alleviate the negative impacts of climate change on the nation building efforts that are in place as well as reduce the suffering of the directly affected populations. Now joining me for this discussion is Honorable Betty Oboy, Deputy Chair of the Peace and Reconciliation Commission. Betty, you are welcome. - Thank you. - And we also have Johnson Kim and he who is the Senior Climate and Security Advisor here at UNMS. You're very welcome. - Thank you very much. - Yes, so I remember you have the opportunity to add your voice to comment, to ask a question. If you have a question and you can start by texting 0912177141 when you feel like you have a question to ask later on, there's an opportunity for you to call in as well. So stay tuned as we continue with the conversation. So first off, over to you, Johnson, just climate change. What is the link between climate change, security and peace? - Thank you very much for your question, Lucy. I mean, there is direct relationship and sometimes indirect between climate change, peace and security. One of the things we observe is that there are some changes like droughts and floods that commonly impact a lot of communities with results into major disruption of both their livelihoods, their economic activities, and also the kind of services that they depend on. So as a result of this disruption, especially on production systems like agriculture, pasture and so on, there is a reduction in the ability for people to have what they need regularly for their livelihoods. As these resources are shrinking, the tendency is that we kind of start scrambling or struggling for the limited resources that is available, like water, pasture land and food. So those disruption leads into sometimes a very challenging situation that people may end up into conflict. We are very familiar with the cases of four months ahead of conflict, mainly because there is a dire need to feed the cattle and sometimes they may stray into farmlands, which results into very reactive responses for the owners of those property. - All right. Honorable Bette, do you have something to add there? - Thank you very much. I agree with Mr. Johnson, since he's the expert in the area. This one really has a very great impact, especially for South Sudan in the sense that it exacerbates the already existing vulnerabilities and unmet needs. You know, floods and routes have affected a food security and people's livelihoods by contributing to resource scarcity. There is an impact on agriculture as communities depend on rain fed agriculture. As a result of intensity of rainfall also, these crops failed, causing floods resulting into water-borne diseases. We also have issues of increase in cattle migration, displacement of communities, cattle rate, conflict over discuss resources, communal conflicts. We have also transhumans, which includes cross-border migration, for example, from Sudan to the Greater Apennale, which also, you know, puts a lot of pressure and spread of veterinary diseases and rise in environmental degradation in the area. And at the same time, you find that because of this kind of movements, the displacement, the migration and what have you, most of the family heads who are men are out there to do other activities. Maybe they've gone raiding, maybe they've gone heading to the cattle, and then you find that it's the women who are heading these families, and they are very vulnerable to these climate change risks. And furthermore, climate-related livestock losses also happen, which is already worsened by pre-existing rivalries, which increases the risk of cattle rates, figuring retaliation, communal conflicts, resulting into inter-communal rivalry, and sometimes the formation of armed groups in the communities. - Okay. - Thank you. - Wow. You've listed a number of things, and that actually just gives some of these negative impacts of climate change, but we're looking at both drought and flooding. And South Sudan is prone to both. - Yes. - Yes. - And just a recap. Some of the active issues that have come up due to climate change that we have experienced at South Sudan, are you able to name some of them? - Well, some of the active issues I can give you, for example, from my own perspective, from the peace-building institutions. - Yes. - What have you observed? - Yes. - We have observed there are always conflicts over pastures. And because of that, you find that the host communities are always in conflict with the herders. Two. And the type of conflicts is exacerbated by the presence of small arms in the hands of civilians, because the herders move with their cattle, well, they are really armed. So the local communities or their hosts, you know, become threatened, yes. So, and they are ready to react in any way possible. And I can give you the life example of what happened the other year, in Magui. - Yes. - It was terrible. That was not a nice scenario to look into. And at the same time, certain actions have not been taken very rapidly, like rapid response, so that these kinds of activities can come to an end, which has caused the communities, lots of lives, lots of property, and, you know, they're now built in that type of hatred, which for a country like this, that is really coming out of war, should be minimized so that we can see further on what steps we can take to, you know, to live in peace and harmony among ourselves. - All right. - Yes. - Thank you, Honorable Betty. And you've laid out some of the risks, you've laid out some of the experiences, actually, South Sudan has had. But before we move further, I want to come back to you, Mr. Johnson. Why is South Sudan actually prone to these climate changes that are recurrent? And over time, we are facing literally the same problems over and over. Sometimes they worsen on the drought side, sometimes it worsens on the flooding side. What makes South Sudan unique to these effects? - Thanks a lot, Lucy. There are a couple of issues that we have to recognize. Firstly, the climate system is changing, and that's one of the major concerns we have globally, that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing, which is resulting in a lot of warming. But when we come to the case of South Sudan, just like most African countries, we are actually highly vulnerable in terms of the impacts of those climate shocks that occur, mainly because the capacity to respond is not there. And also, in the case of South Sudan, the geographical location. In the sense that most African countries are in the tropics, which already is very high in terms of temperature. So any marginal increase in temperature really generates the kind of disruption to systems, such as cropping system, which are more climate sensitive systems that drives livelihood and economic activities. So whatever, how minimal the shock could be, it immediately has very dire consequences on people. With regards to the implications, for example, for South Sudan, South Sudan is in the end downstream of the Nile River basin. So that a lot of flows from other countries in the region flows into South Sudan. It's not necessarily the water or changes in precipitation that generates flood in South Sudan. It's also the runoff that comes from neighboring countries. So that geographical position increases the kind of exposure that South Sudan experiences to some of those shocks. Then the warming also will be recently experienced in India in this region. It's slowing down a little bit. That, again, also really helps to disrupt and create issues of drought, which, in some cases, is back-to-back. You see, it's a drought, and suddenly switches to flooding. Or sometimes concurrently, which stretches the ability for any country to be able to respond adequately in dealing with this issue. So it's quite a very serious phenomenon, which we have to pay serious attention to it. And also the international community have to come to the support of these countries in Africa, because their contribution to the problem is quite little. But then the exposure and the impact they are experiencing is much higher than disproportionately the many parts of the world. - Okay. And you talked about the implications of not responding, or maybe early preparation. Could you please just briefly speak into that? What is at stake in terms of where we know these things keep happening and we were not doing anything about it? - I wouldn't really say that we are not doing anything. - Nothing about it. - In that scenario, what are the risks? - The enormity of the issues, it's quite big for a lot of countries. And also the recurrence, it's also quite frequent. For example, South Sudan has been facing drought and concurrently in the last five years. This is the fifth year of drought where we are going to experience. That stretches any country, because it doesn't give you time to recover, to be able to respond adequately. And that again, the level of disruption, both to livelihood to system, including natural system, is so enormous that it stretches everybody to the limit. So whatever you do in terms of government and community to respond, it becomes very marginal to deal with the intensity of the issue. - That's why it's something that needs collective responsibility and partnership to help lift people out of this kind of situation. - Okay, I will be talking later about what are some of the measures that need to be put in place. But first, honourable boy. It's not like South Sudan has not done anything. There are some measures that have been put in place. There are some activities that are ongoing to help the communities suffer less. What are those and yes? - Yes, I know the government is overstretched, but so far it has done a number of things in relation to these climate related risks. One, it has put in place the National Adaptation Strategy, yes. Two, there is the environmental strategy. And in May this year, the government has earmarked a five-year $33 million project to help the vulnerable agropastularies in the communities. Yes, and in some locations like Bohr, there have been some dikes that have been constructed to help the people in that area, to be able to manage to live around that area and adapt to the situation, because most of the time they've been moving and they've been facing a lot of challenges as they move. Yes, yes, so some dikes have been put in place, and the communities are also being sensitized on how to raise these mud walls or putting sand in the sacks to raise up the banks of the water around them. So, similarly, there is also an activity going on whereby, in the states and in the counties, the government is leading the process of identifying higher grounds whereby, in case of any flooding, some of the affected people can be moved into those locations. Yes, that's ongoing. All right, that's good. And this is in the relation to the actual climate risk, the actual climate change, the flooding, I was not talking about drought, this is mostly flooding. Yes, and now I would like to bring the drought factor to you, Johnson Kim, and then after that, you can also talk about now the actual implications, because we're not, like you said, we're just adapting. These are things that are out of control of the government, of the humans, of the population, so then the risks for the implication is still there, how does government and partners plan for now what the outcome of the actual disaster that eventually happens? So first, the drought. What are some of those things that can be done in terms of preparing for drought? Again, drought is quite challenging, because it causes various severe damages, both reliability and, again, the economic system, even in infrastructure to a certain extent, damage by drought. There are a couple of things that could be done. We know that ones that are drought. One of the critical things is to start thinking of how do we provide water so that people can continue with productivity, because they shock that plants and natural system animals, the experience during drought, forces them to relocate. They have to move, and whatever they move to, the tendency is an emergency, basically. So the tendency is that they will move into any water system, because they need water. So some of the critical things is how do we move water into those places. There are a lot of activities being done by government and partners to provide a boreholes, drinking points and all of that to help ameloré the situation. But, again, as I said, the intensity of the drought, the frequency, always keeps everyone in a catch-up situation, because it becomes even more severe, and the extent to which you need to respond is quite big. But some of the things we should do in terms of enhancing our ability to deal with this situation is to start thinking about building resilience. Building resilience means you really need to put a process in place, which is not just about responding reactively or adapting as the situation is evolving, but putting a system that makes it more robust to those impacts when they come. I mean, some people would say we should use drought tolerancy, that's fine. But the resilience requires a combination of different interventions. And what are some of those interventions? I mean, some of those interventions we start to think about running water harvesting, having water retention points, or even moving water to where there's drought. I mean, if we are experiencing flood in some part of the country and drought and another, we should start thinking of, can we shift that water to where they need it or where there's drought? So some of these thinking has to be really, how do we start planting trees to make sure that some of the catchment which are there are protected to be able to retain water when we need it and provide the kind of shade that we need? So these are some of the kind of responses that we have to do from an individual level community and maybe not to the government. It's not just that we sit and wait for someone to come and do it for us. It has to be a collective responsibility, as I said. Everyone played their part in making sure that this is dealt with. Thank you very much. You're listening to Radio Miraya. This is the Democracy in Action. And today we are discussing climate change and governance in the studio. We have Honorable Betio Boy and Johnson Kim. Honorable Betio Betio is a deputy chair for Peace and Reconciliation Commission. And Johnson is a senior climate and security advisor here at Unmouth. And we've looked at some of the implications and risks of climate change and how it is linked to peace and security. And we've seen that, yes, South Sudan is very vulnerable in this case. And over time we've experienced drought and flooding, both in severe cases. And then the, I don't know, the expected one that people are used to. But then in several, in different times, like for example, in the year 2020, 2021, the flooding became even more severe. And so we've seen that a lot of things happen when climate change affects our communities. And these need to adapt, these need to build resilience. And we're going to look at some other interventions that need to be put in place in regards to the implications that Honorable Boy mentioned earlier. Things like food security, things like waterborne diseases, but also the community, the communal violence that takes place between the cattle hardens and the farmers who are looking for pasture. So this we're going to do after the break, remember, if you have a question, you can text 0 9 12 17 7 1 4 1. A question or a comment. Stay tuned. [MUSIC PLAYING] Broadcasting from the heart of the nation's capital, this is Radio Mariah. 101 and 101.5 FM, Radio Mariah, the voice of peace. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [MUSIC PLAYING] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Welcome back. This is Democracy in Action on Radio Mariah. My name is Luci Kidan. And I'm with the Honorable Betio Boy, Deputy Chair for Peace and Reconciliation Commission. And Johnson and Kim, Senior Climate and Security Advisor at Unmiss. And we're talking about climate change and governance. How climate change is affecting the country, the negative impacts, the implication of drought and flooding, and also how it disrupts productive systems. This was mentioned earlier. And then resources become reduced. And now this affects security in different areas. We're looking at food. We're looking at health, as well as a conflict in the communities that are triggered because of the impact of climate change in different parts of the country, depending on the geographical location and the intensity of the way either the drought or the flooding affects the communities. Now, just before we went for the break, Mr. Johnson was talking about building resilience. And some of the interventions he spoke about was rainwater harvesting, moving flood water to drought areas, and planting trees to retain water in some parts that have a risk to experience drought. And for the case of South Sudan, we've had both in extreme cases. And given the geographical context, some places are more prone to flooding, while others are more prone to drought. But right now, I want to just focus on the flooding a little bit, because this is our next immediate issue, as it has already been announced that there's going to be there's expected flooding over the next three months, and that it is going to be intense. And so, looking at this specific case, in the past, there's been humanitarian aspects of flooding, where you have those affected coming together, they have no food, they have no shelter, they don't have all these things, and how has government so far managed, and how can government get better at this, in terms of improving the livelihoods of these communities? This question I'm posing to you, Honorable Betty. Thank you very much. Well, for the government to manage climate-related security risks, one, it has to strengthen its governance deficits. It has to increase the avenues to sufficient resources. It has to close gaps in the knowledge and technical expertise to be able to manage some of these risks, because if you have the capacity, you have the technology, it will be easier for you to move around to the different location or you give instructions to whoever is on that particular location on what to do. True, the government should invest on early warning, prevention, mitigation, and preparedness exercises. And this has to be a bottom-up approach. It has to start right from the communities, so that the communities are aware of what to expect and what they should do when such things are being shown to them that there is a possibility of light coming. What should they do? The communities should know it. They need information. The information has to be shared to them in advance, so that they would be able to prepare themselves. There should be an awareness creation also at the national level of the policy, the national policy that calls for national strategy for climate change, adaptation, and mitigation. This policy may only be sitting in Juba, as we speak. And not so many people have seen the policy itself or the adaptation plan. This needs to be shared across the board. The people have to know. The processes there need to be inclusive. When was this national adaptation strategy developed? 2021? OK. So the people who know what is there for them, so that they will be able to work side-by-side with their government in addressing some of these issues. Because some of these issues may not necessarily need that the government has to move to a certain location. The communities themselves can find out ways to reach their government to send whatever resources are available for them to take charge of their own affairs. And as we speak now, there is that gap between the people who are affected and the government. That's making the policies. Because that gap should not be there. That gap has to be closed. Because people have to be together to work and strategize for what comes next. Thank you. OK. So communities do need to be involved in the solution finding the process of discussions. And they need to be aware of what the government is doing. Thank you for that. Coming to you now, Johnson, it's not just a national issue. This is something that goes broad across the borders into the region. And you spoke earlier about how the flooding is recurrent. But then also, there's the issue of the river Nile. And whether dams are being created down there in Uganda, we are on the lower end, you say, of the Nile. And so the water is released into South Sudan. And hence, increasing the effects of the flooding. So how can the region work together to ensure that even as development is happening in one place, the effects will not be as dire in another place? In this case, South Sudan. Yeah, thank you very much. I mean, this is-- there's a transboundary dimension to the problem, to the risk, which also need a transboundary solution in terms of governance. How do we manage the risk so that we don't overworm other places in the system? So there is definitely a very important regional approach into dealing with this issue. Because as I said before, the amount of water that really overwhelms and clear flooding in South Sudan is not necessarily only the rainfall in South Sudan itself. Part of that is as a result of a surface flow that comes from other countries. And they usually collect in places like Lake Victoria, which is quite a prominent lake. And when the water becomes-- the level of the water becomes very high, there's a tendency for some of it to be released. And that is exactly the situation we are facing. And when that water is released, it definitely flows downstream, where it ends up overwhelming the flood situation in South Sudan. So whatever we do, we need to talk. There must be a regional dimension to look at the risk. Yes, country upstream will have to release water in order not to also cause more problems to themselves. But then we need-- there should be a common understanding on how the water has released. Can we sequence it so that the flow is not gushing to country downstream? Is timing also-- Exactly. That's another point. It is a factor. How you release the water, when you release it, gives the chance for those who are downstream to be able to manage using the means they have in dealing with those water. It gives them a bit of time whether to relocate people to high grounds and help people to self-evaluate. So all of this kind of communication is very useful. It's also another dimension of early warning, which the honorable spoke about, because the early warning is not just localized. It should enjoy the national early warning. What is happening, like Victoria, should also-- we should be informed, which they did. I really applaud the fact that they did that. They informed the minister and the minister immediately also communicated that information so that people can move into preparedness and response planning. So that's the kind of regional approach that we need in dealing with this kind of multi-dimensional risk and some time offside risk, because where the climate shock is happening is in the Victoria. But the consequences is in another location, like South Sudan. So that needs to be treated very carefully. All right. Thank you. And still, just with you, Johnson, earlier you did mention building resilience. And you mentioned some kinds of different interventions that South Sudan could start thinking about. Aside from these interventions, rain, water harvesting, moving floodwater to drought areas, planting trees, are there some interventions that other countries that are flood-prone have employed and has worked for them that could actually work for South Sudan that South Sudan should probably look into? Well, I mean, different countries are employing different ways in looking at issues, because some of the effects of flooding is not uniform. Uganda, for example, it triggers the landslide. But we are in South Sudan. We have that inundation, right, which helps, you know, these are different circumstances. So the localization of the solution is very critical in terms of how should we look at this. And in my view, some of the things we should start thinking is livelihood diversification, right? If we feel that flood is overwhelming in some part of the country, such that growing crop is difficult, what we should think about fishing, for example, aquatic practices, powder rice, for example, things that adapt to the changing ecology of those systems. And I believe that's the same drought as well. Exactly for drought. The crops that survive. Exactly, under those circumstances. I mean, there is a huge opportunity in turning this so-called risk now into-- An opportunity. --into opportunity. And I mean, we are talking about fresh water. There's no salt water. And fresh water is a major resource that people really would like to have. So for me, the risk that we experience now should figure out to start thinking about how do we tend this into opportunities. Because this is a natural endowment that we could use to change our economy, move into green growth, green economy, and expand opportunities for everybody, and generate capital for people, especially the young people. So it's a matter of how we think and look at this issue carefully. All right, and turn things around. I wonder about Betty, you look like you have something to add to what he said. Well, indeed, as we speak, we have a lot of resources. We are complaining of floods, floods, floods. But we have a lot of resources that we could utilize from the flood. Because if dikes and dams have been put there, the water would be reserved. Maybe next time they will be drought. And these water could be used, either for agricultural purposes, domestic purposes, or for feeding the cattle to drink. So in essence, we should talk of the visitation of the resources that we have. Because we should not be dependent all the time on grain, grain, and cassava, what have you. Others should be there. Because what somebody in a drought-prone region in South Sudan is producing should be the opposite in where the flood is. Yes, because like now, this is just a news that has just come about some two, three days back in Toreet. Because of the drought, the crops have failed. And people are using these coconut tubers as food, OK? But what else could they get from the other paths that are flooded, like the northern Toreet, which is flooded? There is plenty of fish. So there has to be collaboration and networking among the communities so that they can be able to access certain resources. There has to be peaceful coexistence among them. So that those ones who are eating the tubers can come to those ones who are-- Who have the fish? Who are collecting the fish. And the country. And the country. Yeah, OK. So that there will be peace and harmony among them. And that is really very, very important. Well, our time is well spent. I have two more questions. And one here is coming to you, Honorable Betty. The too many initiative has recommended an inquiry into climate change induced disputes across South Sudan. What could this look like and where should South Sudan start? Well, climate induced disputes. Yes, you spoke early of community conflicts. Yes. You find cattle raids, revenge killings, retaliation because my cattle has been taken. I have to do this. So the too many initiative is really welcome to do whatever they want to do, bearing in mind that South Sudan itself has preexisting conflicts, which are not in any way related to climate change. They've been there. So whatever is to be done is really to go down to the people and find out for themselves what are the real issues. Is it only the climate related one? Or it is the climate related, the climate related issues, the one adding more trouble to what is already there. To existing issues. Yes, a preexisting issues. Because we as South Sudan, we have our preexisting issues. We have our cultural differences. We have our different ways of doing things. So that would be a challenge that I think the too many initiative will have to look into. Second, the South Sudan in itself, besides the climate related risks, it has a lot on its table that it needs to address. Yes, one, how do we go about talking to communities to live in peace and harmony? That is one, two. What is it that we give them so that we can reduce their vulnerability and variability? What can we do? These are the questions we should ask ourselves. And from there, we can now board that boat to go to wherever we are going to do our investigations or our assessment, having those questions at the back of our minds. Because everything that's happening here does not only happen from the blue, because the rain is only-- Because it has rain. Because it has rain, or because there is no rain. Yeah, there are things that are really on the ground. The real causes of the conflicts are there. But these ones are just additional. All right. Yes. Thank you, you've actually answered both questions. So now, coming to you, Johnson, given your observation, your time in South Sudan, what has come to your table, what advice would you give, generally? You've mentioned bits and pieces over there. But in just a few sentences, what is the way forward? Because this is something that's going to keep happening. It's out of the human control. But then, how can we best manage it? That's a very good question, and a good way for us to wrap up. One of the things I see is that the level of resource endowment in South Sudan is unconparable to any part of the world. But there's a lot of disruption which comes in that distract people from taking those opportunities offered by those resources. As I said, again, flood water is fresh water. It's a disruption, yes, based on also resource. So we should flip it around and say, OK, what do we do with this water? Which will actually provide the solution to the flooding. So again, we should use the endowment of these resources to mobilize and really stimulate ourself to engage and face this issue so that it becomes a growth opportunity to transform society and also provide the kind of permanent resilience that we can have to this kind of now-recurring shocks from the climate system. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Johnson. All of our Betty, final word to the people. My final word to the people of South Sudan is that we know our situation. We should not despair. We should continue working hard to change things around because without that effort, nothing changes for us. So it is us really to bring what we want on the table, not waiting for anybody else to bring. The other people can come in and help, and they are welcome. But we should pull ourselves. We should come out of our vulnerability by taking actions that can help us in the end. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Johnson and Honorable Betty, for coming to discuss climate change with me today. And do have a good day. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, this brings us to the end of our democracy in action, as we've discussed climate change. Well, government and partners, we need to build resilience, and we need to find a way of turning this around and utilizing what is a risk into changing it and turning it into a resource. As for the people, let's work together to ensure that we all alleviate the negative impact. Thank you very much. We have the news in Arabic coming up next. And so have a good day and keep listening to Radio Mira. For more. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] (speaking in foreign language)