Celebrating God and Country (1:30), wet market dining (11:20), "The Bear" backlash (18:02), does Biden need to step down? (46:32), WNBA culture clash: Rookie of Year edition (1:10:03), Klay Thompson in Dallas (1:26:32), how good can the Spurs be? (1:35:34), Hartenstein joins the Thunder (1:40:24), can the Kings integrate DeMar Derozan? (1:52:21), Daryl Morey's big summer (2:00:31).
Cookies: A Basketball Podcast
Meaty or Ick? Cookies 463
(upbeat music) ♪ I love cookies ♪ ♪ I love cookies ♪ ♪ I love cookies ♪ ♪ I love cookies ♪ - Welcome to Cookies, the world's most influential basketball podcast. Might sound a little fuzzy today. Recording remotely from upstate New York. You know, who else has been in upstate New York recently? It's Andrew Quo. - Wow, yeah, I spent our nation's birthday, holiday, the celebration of cop fireworks up in Hillham, Westchester County, half an hour, upstate, up way upstate, half an hour, you can't walk. And near Tarrytown, the home of the Knicks. - So you were up there, you probably sampled some garbage plates, some chicken riggies, your swimming, Genesee beer, like welcome, welcome to God's Country, Andrew. - Some wings from Buffalo, I did it. I had them all, I jumped on a trampoline, my friend eat enchilade. What'd you do for this holiday week? - For the 4th of July, I didn't really do anything because this was a part planning issue of my own fault. Where I realized only late in the day, too late in the game, that the fireworks had been moved over from the east side to the west side and would no longer be visible in North Brooklyn. So I'd spent all day hanging out with some friends. And in my mind, we were gonna like wander over towards the water and see the fireworks. And I did that and I was like, wow, no one's over here. It's pretty quiet. And then the truth became apparent. So I just saw people lighting things off in the streets and running around and having little wars and blowing stuff up. So my 4th of July was not nearly as patriotic as yours, which was full of beef on wek and delicacies such as Speedy's from Binghamton and other upstate finery. - It was a quick jaunt and I spent the night in at home in the middle of Brooklyn and there were so many fireworks. The next morning, there was just like milk crates of discarded like paper tubes and boxes, like the Hawk to a 5000, you know, like, it's incredible. The culture, shout out to Penn and Pixel Design, but the culture of these fireworks, the branding is incredible. - It does feel like fireworks and pornography have their thumb on the pulse of America. - Hmm, how so, I mean, you mean more so than something like at Twitter or TikTok? Does pornography, you mean like when like a politician gets big, they have like people look alike? - That and also even the technology, just the, the visuals and the, you know, pornography being such a huge industry is a little bit different than fireworks, which are probably a sizable industry, but not the same as porn. - Porn just has to be both on the cutting edge, but also there to satisfy all of your, you know, step sibling needs. - Yeah, I still have yet to see a vision pro in the wild, but I'm assuming they're all sequestered in the dungeons of people's houses, where they enjoy private things. - And they're just watching Roman candles all day long. - Yeah, no, but it was, as the kids say, lit in my neighborhood for fourth of July. Pelham, I just spent the morning there. It's a bunch of families, a bunch of screaming toddlers, a bunch of preteens. I'm at that stage of my life, which is a joy and deeply uninteresting. - So do you catch a, I don't know, a saber's game? You know, any other, you know, maybe a little hike in the Adirondacks? - I threw a stone, hit Toronto, Montreal, Canada in general. - You know, when I was sitting in the park with my friend as, you know, it was nightfall and because we couldn't see any fireworks. So we were just sort of listening to them around and hanging out. And it reminded me of those days when we would record our pods as fireworks were going off. And there's something I kind of love about it where it was proof of life in that moment where I know there were rumors about the police or the CIA, it was-- - We lost our damn minds. It was amazing. - It was a, it was a scyop to mess with the protests, whatever it was that the fireworks were not-- - I can't sleep, this is the cops. - That it wasn't simply people being bored and out of school and out of work was something to do in the summer. But there was something about hearing the fireworks go off in that moment that made you, I don't know, happy that people were outside and this same sort of sense. And also it was a little, it was a little drizzly. So it had this feel of distant thunder, but they were, as you said, they were just going off constantly. It was just over and over and over for a long period of time. I don't know, I kind of thought it was amazing. - Yeah, I was saying, I was in a dark room kind of, since it's spelled del boquo vista over here my nighttime, my bedtime is early and I had a little too many enchiladas so my stomach was grumbling. Sadly, no Paul Pierce action. Just, it stayed in the stomach and it sounded like it did outside. So I wasn't sure if it was thunder, the fireworks or my stomach. 'Cause it was like. (mumbling) You know what I mean? - Yeah, it sounds like you were at one with a universe. - I was at one with the Psyop cops and the universe. Did you hear about that? I randomly came across this story. The guy who played in Disneyland who is Gaston, is that his name from Shrek? Like was that a fireworks party? Put a box of fireworks on his head and blew up his entire head. - So I heard about the guy who died from putting fireworks on his head. I didn't know there was a Shrek tie-in. - There might be two fireworks, like viral fireworks deaths this week, but this one guy masqueraded as the handsome prince character in Disneyland. And everyone's like, oh, he was such a fun-loving guy. He was smart and he was a prankster. But he had a little bit to drink. He thought it was funny. We told him not to do it. Next thing we look over, he didn't have a head. - I wouldn't advise that. And I'm no expert on, you know, pyrocraft, pyrotechnics. But that seems like a foolish move. When I was in the city earlier last week, you know, a lot of people were lighting up some powerful, very noisy explosives. And I think people were fairly prudent with them in terms of having, you know, long wicks or however you would describe those things you ignite, the wiring, whatever, fuses, I'm sorry. And I also did see people having the Roman candle fights where they're like shooting at each other from like a roof to the sidewalk and vice versa. And there's some videos as they now are annually. Those one Bill Strobeck took a couple of years ago. And then I saw similar ones where it's people just waging war in the streets of New York with the Roman candles and fireworks exploding. And it looks super dramatic. But couldn't you lose an eye? Like, isn't that? - Oh, absolutely. - It's just part of the charm? - Well, it's like a game of horse, right? At some point, you ask yourself, am I brave enough to up the ante and shoot from behind the backboard? Or am I gonna play it safe? And just like hit the foul shot and be like, you have like a 40% chance of making this or whatever 60, 70, 80, depending on your opponent. 'Cause if you see a bunch of fireworks, the first instinct is to be like, how close to blowing my hand off like Jason Pierre Paul, can I get? How close to death can I stare at? - Yeah, one of my buddies, just like last week, found some sort of firework on the street that hadn't gone off. And he snapped it in two and then lit the middle part and then it blew up in his hands. And he's like, ha, ha, ha. And he looks over and his hands were super singed. And then a week and a half later, he's got all these blisters and wounds on them. And I was like, that was kind of your fault. - Yep. Yeah, and I don't like the... - And Kinda, Kinda is being friendly. - I don't like the whole like Darwin at work. You know, the whole like, are you that stupid? I mean, we cannot evolve as a species without going to the edge of our imagination. - Yeah, I also think there's a sense of a lack of sympathy when we talk about like the Darwin Awards. - Yeah, yeah. - It's like, well, that sucks. And it's sad that someone would die doing something stupid, but we don't need to necessarily like mock them. - Right. - It also feels like this early vestige of internet culture where it was edging then. And now it just seems rooted in the same lack of sympathy and like kind of like shithead mockery. But now it's mainstream, which takes away from it being at all edgelordy. You know what I mean? It's like a normy way not to have sympathy. And I'm like, you know what? Normies are supposed to have sympathy. - Right. Enough sympathy in the middle, right? Just enough sympathy. - Not zero sympathy. That is not normy. That is just dickheads. - Yeah, and you see like these, right. But I'm saying you see these videos of like parkour where guys are, it's kind of what you said, like playing horse butt with your life. And it's like, oh, that's so cool. You can like do a flip over that thing. Like, but what if I do a flip over that thing and if I mess up, I die? Well, yeah, that is terrifying and brave and stupid or whatever adjective you want to throw at it. And then one of those guys dies and you're like, haha, Darwin. - Right. And like, I guess one of the big jumps of our entire crew is Discovery of Fire. You know, an edgelord has to be the first to light the fire. Like the, an edgelord has to be the first one to try and oyster, crazy. Or like, to try a fish insane. Can you imagine being the first one to try a lobster? Just like wild chits, like, yo, Tom over there, ate one of those weird bugs that came out of the water. I am sticking to these apples. - There's a algo on Instagram and the reels specifically that is occasionally just throws me Asian people in Asia eating weird things. I don't know why. This is not a particular interest of mine but I did, they're in the feed, no pun intended. - Was it a five, five short king eating enchiladas in Pelham? - With the tumultuousness of the skies matched only by the roiling of his abdomen. No, I don't know why I get these. Maybe because I click on them on occasion. But there's one recently and it was an older Asian woman killing a snake and then using its blood to make an omelette. - Like gnarly, but okay, whatever. We eat different stuff in different places. But this cross cultural sort of interaction leads to everyone just saying new SARS dropped like new COVID here, COVID loading. - I mean, I-- - Maybe we're too interconnected, Andrew. - I find that self-shocking too. But nothing is as weird as a hot dog, right? And you know, I watched the Coney Island Fourth of July festivities. I seen Kobayashi do his thing. The Kobayashi erasure is crazy. Everyone talks about Chestnut. Kobayashi is the Alan Iverson of all of this. - Absolutely. - Yeah, and Chestnut is just a facsimile of Iverson. Whoever that may be, Sebastian Telfer. - Steve Francis. - Shout out to the next legend. That's like the wet market stuff is unnerving. Like I have trouble with it, but you know, like kind of grew up around here. But it's not lost on me that hot dogs are the strangest thing. And we don't really want to get into some of the delicacies Americans enjoy and how strange they are. Like hamburgers are like not normal things necessarily. Someone may meet you to snake and be like, well, you eat a burger patty that's sourced from like 400 different animals. - Well, right. Hey, we're going to have a, you know, a clam bake and then we're going to have some soft shell crab. I'm like, I mean, these are just big weird insects. They live in the water. If we saw a video on YouTube of someone eating a crab and we're unfamiliar with them, we would lose our mind. - I mean, how would ventures do you get with food? 'Cause like, what kind of posts the nose to tail culture? But like, you know, we eat burgers, we pay a lot of money for steaks. But we don't really eat like ears and eyeballs and stuff that other cultures do. Is that more disgusting than like a shoulder? - We've decided collectively that it is. - It's yeah. - Maybe it's just whatever is more differentiated than being anonymous piece of meat. Like, oh, this isn't weird. It's a homogenous piece of a slab. - I will not eat beef tongue, but I will eat a beef hot dog. - Exactly. - I mean, personally, I've eaten like an eyeball or an ear, and that's all fine. I just think that once you've made the decision we're eating animals, you're not allowed to think other animals are weird to eat. - I'm kind of with that, yeah. - You've crossed the Rubicon into eating other living beings and not eating vegetables, then the rest is just, you know, cultural relativism. - There are some mind benders though, like breakfast, chicken, sausage, and eggs, like mother and child reunion. Shout out to Paul Simon. It is a strange psychological line you have to cross. I still stand by the idea that we collectively should eat less meat. I've been eating much less meat, but like at that point, I do not discriminate kind of. And stuff is weird, like, you know, if an eyeball is looking at you on the 4th of July, you'll be like, can you liquify and foam that up and put it into a casing and grill it and put it into a potato bun for me? - That would be great with some ketchup on it. The only time I've eaten an eyeball, knowingly, was an Italian restaurant around Grand Mercy Park. I think it was called Myelenas, something like that. I believe it's gone now. - Myelena. - Myelena, yeah. They was something along those lines. And you could order like a pig's head and it would come out and it was like half of it. And it was there. You could see the teeth and the snout and the eyeball just like looking at it. - A pig or a sheep. A pig, right? - There's a pig, there's a pig. And the eyeball was right there. And I will say, despite it being a bit gruesome as an item that was on your plate, it also did provide like real life context to like what you're doing versus, hey, this is a bunch of ground protein that is in a sterilized styrofoam container with plastic. I guess you can put this into the form of a burger and put cheese on it. It was like, oh no, you're eating a living being that had thoughts and emotions and its eye is there looking up at you. So like there was a deeper connection that I'm not gonna say I feel exactly what an Iroquois made of American did, but I think it's pretty close, Andrew. - Yeah, there's been a lot of discussion about what the bear is, right? We're in season three of this extremely popular show and it is the first season. The rat dude, the rat king, the handsome rat, the fuckable rat, as they say. Takes over this sandwich shop and-- - Wait, the rat fucker, is this related to Richard Nixon and the-- - People wanna fuck the rat. They wanna fuck the rat. The rat doesn't wanna fuck other things. I mean, I'm assuming he does 'cause he's a red-blooded rat. But I forgot, who called him, was it the New York Times that called like these handsome, this new genre of handsome and rat handsome? - No, I think it was an internet phenomenon in the same way that women were describing themselves as deer pretty, bunny pretty, cat pretty, fox pretty, whatever, then those are conversations I remember having at the time with some women about like, what should men be? It's like bear handsome, wolf handsome, and rat handsome, I think is kind of an offshoot of this concept. - Is this swagger-jacking the LGBTQI+ scene because there are bears and otters and other terms that I don't know of? But this has been going on for generations, right? - I think sort of, sort of it is, yeah. But it's, look, I mean, we're all talking about animal nicknames and attractiveness, like this is all swirling together, of course. - What animal do you wanna fuck the most? - Hmm. I feel like that's, yeah. I'm not gonna even really indulge in that question, Andrew. - It's like giving you a box of hawk to a roaming candles. You can either fire them off like a normal person, or you can blow your brains out. - At least we were ahead of the curve on the hawk to a blowback, as we could call it. - Shout out to the phenomenon. There's like a mini documentary about her, about where she's from, there's music. She's like, yo, all you bootleggers, sort of like the cookie's interns, like all you bootleggers knocking off my image, my brand, my lawyers are coming after you. The cookie's interns are very into bootlegs, so bootleg all you want. It's a free-for-all, we do not own this stuff. The world is a conversation, but the hawk to a woman coming after you. She's gonna want-- - There's one thing you can say-- - Maybe later this-- - About, this one thing you can say about the hawk to a girl is that she's litigious. - She's, I mean, we might have a prosecutor as president, so it is timely. - But back to the bear thing here, and you got waylaid trying to get me to admit to bestiality fantasies, and I wouldn't buy it. I was not gonna do it. So, Andrew, back to your bear discussion. - Right. - Where were you going with that? - Well, I think we're at kind of an inflection point for food fans and food culture, right? 'Cause we had the meteoric rise of food network, kingmaker kind of stuff. - Was that a intended pun or just a brilliant one? - A meteoric rise? - The meteoric rise. - A meteoric rise. - A meteoric rise. - Yeah, a meteoric. There's vegetarians out there. We got to shout out to our plant-loving friends, or plant-hating friends. Stop eating my vegetarian homies. - Is that-- - Hold on, hold on. Is that, is there a legitimate argument here? To say that-- - Here we go, here we go. - Not to say that plants are just as alive as animals, that we're just being biased as warm-blooded mammals towards creatures that are like us. Like a tree. - Yeah? - A tree's like, "Dude, I'm alive as well." - There are smart people who think plants express fear and show defense mechanisms that are clearly obvious, that we ignore because they don't remind us of us. They don't have eyes, they don't have hands, they don't have mouths, but when you cut grass, there's no reason it should smell like cut grass. That's the defense mechanism for grass. Some plants emit gases or chemicals. Some plants like fold up when they sense danger. There, and plants have a nervous system. The whole forest is a network, kind of run by fungi. - I mean, they go to sleep. - Plants for all extensive purposes are living, feeling things that think, which is weird, right? If they could talk, they'd be like, "Please don't eat me." Unlike chickens, if they could talk to you back, "Bakak, eat the fuck out of me. "Deep fry me, throw me in Szechuan peppercorns. "What the fuck ever?" "Bakak." - And then turn me into a chicken sausage that'll be eaten with my own eggs. But I find that a really ironic fate. - Yeah. But yeah, that is, I remember there was a second where a vegan person tried to claim oysters were allowable in their culture because there was no, I forget the qualifications, but there was no nervous system maybe. There was no brain matter in the thing. And biologists were quick to point out that there was indeed a nervous system and they are animals and they have feelings and they don't wanna be eaten. So that was a good attempt at trying to have an espresso martini and a half dozen oysters. - All right, sorry, back to the bear. - All right, it's whack, right? So the first season, this fuckable rat takes over this beloved sandwich shop. Second season kind of turns it into a fine dining establishment. I have not watched the third season. Throughout the whole thing, this is the natural progression of garden state, Little Miss Sunshine. If you're a fan of like, Haruki Murakami's, not Haruki Murakami's writing. Who's that author? I always get him, is it Haruki Murakami? Yes. - I think you're talking about Murakami. - I get confused with the Takeshi Murakami. More Akami's. - Sounds like someone's been secretly reading? - No, I can't do it. He has a new short story in The New Yorker and it's about more beetle stuff. I can't do it. But it's that sentimentality, right? That Norwegian wood sentimentality of like, this wistful kind of coming of age set in the point of view of a young man and the things that happen around him. And it's been updated to add in generational trauma hilariously and like addiction and crime. It seems concocted in a boardroom. It smelled like that from the first season, but inexplicably, it became such a big hit. I watched the whole thing. I hate watched the whole thing. It was kind of delicious in that way. No pun intended. And it borrowed from like David Gelb's stuff like Chef's Table, Hero Dreams of Sushi, which I really disliked. But I love Chef's Table. Hero Dreams of Sushi was just like kind of too militaristic and it's about an older generation kind of punishing a younger generation. We'll get to the election soon. This perfect pod, the battle of the generations. And Anthony Bourdain, right? And had this like overarching like, food is not just something you eat, it is life. And I'm like, I'll get the fuck out of here. Fine, let's do this more a commie shit. You know what I mean? - Yes, also, I was secretly reading some Alice in Row, short stories recently. - Yikes, post pre-scandal. You mean after she died? - Or before the article dropped a couple of days ago. - Oh, I didn't see that 'cause I don't really read. What are they saying? - Oh, Jesus Christ. Her daughter was sexually abused by her as Monroe's husband, her stepfather. And Alice Monroe knew about it and chose the father over her daughter. - I knew there was something wrong with those short stories. - Wait, did you just bring up Alice Monroe not knowing that that happened this weekend? - Yeah. - Weird. You are the internet. You should get the internet tattooed on your face. - I should get the internet on my phone. So check this thing out. - Yeah, so Alice Monroe no-go as of this weekend. - Oh. - Yes, sorry to break it to you, man. So adjust your take accordingly. - Tread lightly. - I guess I was gonna say she made some. (laughs) - Good luck. - Well, I was gonna say, and this is ironic considering the news that's breaking on this pod, is that she often writes from the perspective of like a young girl. - Yeah. - And I was just going to bring that into, I think that's much easier to convey and more effective in short stories or in literature because you can write in that tone of voice. And it's much tougher to do that in cinema from the perspective of like a child seeing the world. It can be done, people try to do it a lot. But I think like the young man coming of age is kind of easier than doing it because there's something about the written word where you're talking about not understanding what's happening is harder to convey that in a visual language. - I kind of agree. There are certain advantages of the format of a movie over like words. But I hear what you're saying. I'm trying to think of like the best coming of age movies. - I mean, something like Wonder Years did a good job, but so much of that was based on the narration though, right? - Well, it's interesting you bring that up 'cause I think the Wonder Years celebrated anniversary. Maybe it was like the last episode or something. So people were playing and took place on July 4th. So people were playing the end of that. And like that show, that sentiment has not aged well, right? Like people don't relish in talking about that hit show in the same way they relish talking about three is company, Seinfeld, Morgan Mindy, I don't know, ER, just I don't know why I said Morgan Mindy, but taxi mash. - Laverne and Shirley for example. - But like that's a cringe show. You can't re-watch that and be like, "This is so awesome." You're like, "Ooh, this is tough." And to boomerang it back to the bear, even re-watching old Anthony Bourdain episodes of his numerous shows, Art doesn't kind of age with you. And if you grow up, the art kind of stays the same age. Certain artworks can transform and help you as you change. But most don't, right? And I think the bear posts COVID through 2024 as we're stressed out about this generationally of the pitting of the generations in November's election is like the wrong timing for this coming of age kind of story that we were kind of more ready for three or four years ago. There is a- - Like you're talking about like a young Joe Biden finally assumes the mantle of the presidency. This up-and-comer flush with new ideas takes the reins of a young nation and leads us to the promised land. - Well, it's kind of like the story conflict between the silent generation and the baby boomers just pitted against each other constantly. Joe Biden, the silent generation against this young whipper snapper trying to take his place in Donald Trump. - You're talking about this greenhorn? I would never give him the nuclear codes. It's a little news boy over here trying to eat my lunch. We have a very- - This is not a brat summer Donald, sorry. - We have a very good friend who has figured out an amazing conversational trick which is if he doesn't know about something and it's presented to him, he says it's over and it's already wack. If he knows about it and you don't know about it, he's privy to the next thing that you will eventually find out about. It's a great kind of catch 22 or checkmate of talking about everything and I enjoy it a lot. I think backlash is, if we're gonna talk about the bear, the backlash exists as a phenomenon outside the artwork. I think season three, you're kind of like sending yourself up for the girls kind of like re-litigation, just being like, I never liked this thing 'cause season three sucks, right? Or you can watch the first season of the bear episode one and be like, I hate this, everyone loves it, this is wack already. And I think the phenomenon of this show has to be talked about as an independent cycling of something people like and an artwork onto itself. - Yeah, I'm trying to think how the bear relates culturally because personally I watched a few episodes, I didn't think it was bad, I just didn't really think it was for me and a little bit that was kind of weirdly sculpted by friends who work in the same industry and their take is based on the whole other side of authenticity because you, the public and people who worked in that industry saying, well, this is so real, we also drink out of those like plastic court containers, this is authentic, look, there's all these people involved with this, there's these-- - Behind, behind, right. - They know what they're doing. - Three all day, three all day. - Right, right, this is the real verbiage that goes on in the kitchen, this is the energy of it. And then some other people I knew who worked in that industry would say the opposite, ah, it's fake, it's bullshit, I don't know why. But I felt as if people were too caught up in the energy and the snappiness and whether or not it was real or not. - For sure. - Ultimately I just kind of didn't care about the show or its characters. - All the characters are bad people that commit crimes, they're either suffering from trauma that makes them bad, I find them to be kind of bros, you do not wanna have a beer with, and beer. The authenticity thing, right, we always come back to that, it's like, well, that's a real chef, that's real, I just don't care about that either. The food, however much I love eating out and all that, I don't know, it's not like Hollywood culture or like music beef, like food stuff is inherently uncool as we're debating recently about what is cool on X. Like, is the beer cool? I'm like, no, it's not. Like having an ensemble cast arguing over Thanksgiving dinner is like so wrought with uncoolness. Is Kendrick Lamar cool? Like sadly, maybe not, is Mark Zuckerberg cool? It's like, no, but we're maybe arguing about the wrong thing because the thing I love so much is Twitter, as soon as it's there, it cannot be cool by definition, right? - I mean, I think, there's a lot of accusations you've levied. (laughs) - That's what I do, that's what I do. - No, no. - I'm now eating up, I'm pooping down, buddy. - But the sort of vestiges of Bourdain as the badass chef, as like, yeah, we're drinking, we're smoking, we're fucking, we're cooking meals. - We're eating pop and the stooges ever to the Brian Jonestown massacre. That's right, we're baking potatoes with him. - We're brining chicken, yeah, you heard me. - In the studio with more chiva. - But that macho element of chefs, which, you know, we're getting tattoos, we're doing blow, we are, we go hard. - I got a wood scot on it, yeah. - And it's like, okay, you know, here's a cassoulet. It's like, all right, it's fantastic. But I don't know of other professions that have, I guess, benefited from the kind of rebranding. And you could take this back to Marco Pierre in London who had the same kind of badass celebrity chef. It's now such a part of kitchen culture that it's just accepted. Like, you see someone with like rolled up sleeves and tattoos and like, oh, you look like a guy who works in a kitchen. You look like a, you look like a, or you make cocktails, one of the two. It's such a part of the service industry for lack of a better term. But I can't think of another profession like that, which is benefited to the same degree culturally. It's like, yeah, you know, the people who clean hotel rooms secretly badasses. - I think in my world, painters, especially insecure men who are painters, who think about aesthetics and beauty, have to like cover themselves in tattoos. And, and say things like, this is kind of a job. This is a nine to five. You know, there's very famous artists who talk like that. And, you know, I think the greatest chefs we all talk about are our moms, our grandmothers, you know, and like the magic that happens in the kitchen, the sorcery, the wands are held by like the women in my, in my childhood. And for men to interlope and become the head chefs at these restaurants, I feel like there is a certain kind of masculinity conversation. They're like, no, I'm badass. I'm showing up with a sleeve of tattoos next season. And I will eventually do a podcast and parlay that coach and job at the Los Angeles Lakers. (laughing) - Yeah, I hear you. - Yeah, writers have kind of a different trajectory that feels somewhat based on this idea of, I don't know, Truman Capote and the salon and like, you know, drinking whiskey and watching bull fights. There's a masculinity to it that I think is still at the corners of writing. - Yeah. - Exactly, yeah. But that's kind of been replaced in modern society, I think. And, you know, there's still like the manly writer idea. And I think of our buddy, you know, Sean Thorconro, who, you know, he's writing auto-fiction, he's ripping sigs, he's hitting jump shots, he's doing push-ups. It's like, he still has that-- - A nash type game. - That concept of the masculine writer. But overall, it's really become like, in many ways, like a woman's job. Like there are, you know, I just mean the popularity of successful writers. Hugely, hugely dominated by women at this point, especially in fiction, you know, in columnists all over the place. And it's sort of antithetical to that original version of what like a writer was supposed to be in this, we can call it misogynistic, whatever it was, this conceit. But yeah, that's a field that has shifted in one direction, I think, while, yes, like the kitchen has become the place for true bad assets. So they have knives, Andrew. - Right, right. They have knives and they work with fire, sometimes directly over the fire. It's hot in the kitchen. - It's like a salt. - Yeah, the heat of the kitchen is not only from the stove. And, you know, I used to have a friend who worked at a Michelin-starred restaurant in Midtown. And they were like, it is so crazy in there and stressful and demanding that our whole crew is on pills and drugs and having sex in the walk-ins and on the ground after closing time and just drinking until morning, 'cause we're so wired. And I'm like, that's terrifying and fascinating. And there's a story there, but it's not the one that ever gets to our eyeballs, right? The stories that I kind of hear, I mean, the influence of "Chef Stable" should not be underestimated, right? Like, this flower, you know, I remember the last scene of "Girls" and it pans out on the Brooklyn Street and there's like a acoustic guitar, I think. And it kind of puts a bow on the many, many things that happens throughout the life of that show, which I think ages really well, 'cause it's so skeptical. But that is the wonder years effect is kind of the one we always get with food culture. And I don't think it's a big enough world to give us anything else. - Well, the wonder years effect, if we're pinning it down, we're not talking about how the wonder years is viewed today. We're talking about almost approaching the world with a child-like sense of nostalgia and looking at-- - There's a lens of an older person. - Right, when things were confusing as a child, but you didn't actually have to know what was going on, I'm trying to think of the best way of saying that. But like, you could be aware of conflicts between, say, generations, between your sister and your father and-- - Silent boomer. - Right, and, you know, the warmongers and the hawks and the peacenix and the hippies, these were these conflicts at the time were confusing, but there was a simplicity to that confusion as well. We didn't have to take sides, and I think a lot of that does inform some of these political stances where there's this fine line between saying, we should take it back to when we were all one. We were all friends back in the day. It was, we got along, you know, everyone knew how to coexist, and then saying, maga bitch, which means something totally different. Like that sense of nostalgia can be weaponized. I guess is what I'm saying. - Yeah, whether it's kind of keeping the show running, getting to a second season, getting to a third season. - I, you know, I'm a rights of spring fan. The world is my fuse, talking about fuses. Like, I love this stuff. I reside in the world of Fred Savage. I'm trying to think of a 21 Savage joke here, but he, I like this stuff, but my Gen X alarm sounds, my Spidey Sense sounds, kind of when I see something like the bear, I'm like, this seems a little manufactured to me. It's not skeptical enough, it's not funny enough. It just seems like it's trying to sell me something authentic, not in its language in the kitchen, but of its emotion. Being like, I had, you know, the Weezer, like, I had an abusive stepfather. It's like, no, no, he made that all up. Like, Weezer's popularity was kind of manufactured by Rivers Cuomo. His, he had a wonderful childhood. And he kind of recently came out and was like, oh yeah, I just made that up for the song. But the three generations it took to get to this kind of discussion about trauma is like exhausting, I think. And not untrue, but seeing, like seeing John Mulvaney kind of playing this out, knowing his history and knowing how he got to a guest spot in the bear feels like I'm being fucked with. - I mean, this idea of authenticity. A common theme on the cookies whose podcast. And-- - Ethical. - Ethical chefs. - Ethical entertainment. But, you know, I think I mentioned this a few weeks ago. Just that show, Eric, when it, that the most cloying, most cloying examples of trying to find details to show that you are authentic, that you know what you're talking about, and getting them wrong, is the most cardinal sin. Like, don't include details then, just tell your story. But when someone goes out of their way to add in extraneous details to prove that they're authentic and gets them wrong, but that's the curse of death. - Hmm, so you're saying if your opponent is flailing, like kind of going see now, the best thing to do is just play golf for 11 days, maybe 12 days straight. Stay out of the line like no mics. - Yes. - I mean, it's a good strategy, right? Like, let democratic morons kill themselves and just like chill. - Yeah, yeah. So, last week we talked about your man Joe, Jolt and Joe Biden. And we talked about his-- (laughing) - He's on an island, man. No one knows what's going on in that brain. - No, it's good, it's so Joe, it's good. (laughing) So, ISO Joe is even more isolated than normal. - Yeah. - Post debate. And last when we talked about that calamitous performance. But since then, the tenor has changed in the discussion from the mainstream press, from the Neolibs who have supported him and been team Joe, team ISO Joe, setting him up for ISO possessions. Now, there's a large contingency of people outside of real ISO Joe guys. We're like, all right, you gotta replace them. Let me say this, I think the population of people who are into Joe Biden and willing to vote for him right now. And the people who would vote for his replacement, replacement level, Democrat, is like pretty one to one. I don't think there are that many like ISO Joe stands that would be reluctant to vote for another conventional Democrat. That's just my opinion. - You mean it doesn't matter who's there. People who would vote for Joe Biden would just vote for the Democratic Party? - I believe so. There may be a few who wouldn't, but I think that percentage of people who would dip out on a different candidate is far smaller than the percentage of people who are unwilling to vote for Joe but would vote for replacement level, Democrat. - Joe's war, ISO Joe's war. I think the Democrats are not good strategists to say the least, but they do win the popular vote every election. So there is something formidable there that they are doing correctly, right? The GOP is in shambles as much as the Democratic Party is. And of course whoever wins gets to write the present history. But I do think they sat down and whoever is in charge over there is like we can't flip 'em. Because all the GOP has to do is say we're not giving the country a choice. We just throw whoever we want up there without having to do a primary. And we've done this once with Hillary Clinton. We're doing it again with Gavin Newsom or whoever, you know, whoever it may be. So that's a political third rail. The least, the path of least resistance might be just keeping this old guy up there. And Joe Biden might be like I'm too old. I don't wanna do this. And it's like Joe, you have to do it. Just go up there and project confidence as best you can. 'Cause you are the easiest way to win this game of horse. - I think at this point it's kind of clear that people, or at least a segment of the voting demographic would rather have a somewhat cognizant. I'm saying somewhat sane. These are weird terms to apply to Donald Trump. But like a somewhat present dictator than a non-entity as president. Because what's actually the argument when you say well you're voting for this guy who's clearly senile who's going to be 85 years old if he wins this election. And most likely we'll die in office. Who are we voting for? Like well you're voting for the shadowy cabal of advisors. - But it's a distinct difference in the other shadowy cabal of advisors. There's a distinct difference. - Oh I get that, but I just mean it's not really a choice. It's saying to people, you're voting for like the Democrats versus a president. I think people want- - Which people do? - American, I think, no they do. - They register for the party. - I think Americans still want us to have a figurehead. They want us to have someone who can meet with other world leaders. I don't believe that the average American is saying we'll vote for this demented king but we trusted his advisors behind him are great. - The irony is like which demented king are we talking about? - No I know, I get why this is odd. That's why present is even a better word 'cause yeah they're both demented. - They're both not present either, right? Like it's just two different kinds of dementia or two different kinds of behavior that are the same thing. It's like it's an other handed free throw versus an overhanded free throw. - I'm not disputing that but I just think like Joe Biden, his inability to walk and talk and think, like you can't have this guy really be president. You can't. - But Trump can't walk and talk or think. - I mean-- - Can he? Like, it's been well documented. - Better than Joe, I guess. - Are you sure? I mean, I am open to this idea but Trump is far worse than Joe Biden. Like far worse than Joe Biden. - Well no, yeah, yes, I'm not arguing who's better politically. - No, no, just in performance wise, his rallies are a mess. He said to inject bleach into your veins. Like, what are we talking about? He told scientists to put sunshine in our blood. Like, come on now, right? - King? - Yeah. I mean, it's the dead internet theory. I think the dead internet theory starts with Trump being like the stuff we consume, even on TV, newspapers, it all involves like media, is not actually how people feel. I think the people who go on with their days, with their families, upstate, eating chicken riggies, aren't like debating the nuances of the shadowy cabal of our political parties. They're just like, I just don't like one of them. And then those are the people that end up making a big difference in our elections. So we may be talking about all this stuff online and it may trickle out into real life but the dead internet theory is just like 10% loading, right? It's not 100% there yet. So the things we talk about have not crossed over into real life. - I guess what I'm trying to get to is that Joe Biden is not offering you a alternative to Trump specifically at this point because he is just a non-entity. He's a hologram. He went cadaver mode on us. - But you accuse him of being a genocidal maniac. So which one is it? Is he benign or does he have a point of view? - Well, I mean, I think we know who he takes money from. He's taken more money from APAC than any politician in history. - Sounds like he has a point of view, right? - Well, he has had a point of view for the rest of his entire political career we know his point of view. I mean, he's the crime bill guy. He is the Iraq war guy. Like, we know his point of view going back-- - He also saved us from like a recession. Like, there's something, Trump wanted this country to fail in the last four years and he can't really talk about money 'cause all of his cronies are making money, right? And obviously the stock market is not the economy, but we didn't really cross over into the zone we were scared of. Like, the country was stable. - This is true. I guess what I'm saying is that Biden is supposed to be the easiest re-election ever except that he is just a absolutely horrifying candidate at this point. So I'm saying I think they have to replace him and running him out there is just a huge, huge, huge risk. - When was he supposed to be the easiest re-election ever because we all knew that he was only going to run once? And as far as we know, he does not want to do this. But as a political candidate-- - I'm only talking about, sure, I'm only talking about the current situation globally should have been easy. Like, what's happening in Palestine should not have occurred on this level. And a strong president who cared about, like, American interests, in my opinion, would not have allowed this to exacerbate or escalate in the way that it clearly has, where there's, the estimates are now in like 200,000 people may have died. Biden's foreign policy has been calamity. - I mean, he kind of fucked up in the last year and it's hard to tell what kind of feeling we would have had as a voting population if he had done a 180. The world is kind of going through a certain transformation and movement that makes, like, the French election super interesting this week, right? Like, it was not easy to beat Lappet. They had to have some strategy, maneuvers. The coalition had to band together to do it and they did. But there is an overwhelming global feeling that the dissatisfaction of people are articulating in certain voices. And that voice, like Trumpism exists without Trump. I think Trumpists are annoyed that he is the one 'cause he got beat by a corpse four years ago, you know what I mean? Like, that was maybe one of the poorest candidates the Dems have ever put up and to all extensive purpose, like he destroyed Trump a little bit. - Well, this is kind of what I was trying to get at is that between Biden's age, between his deeply unpopular policies in the Middle East, at least in terms of from the left, and his absolute scorn of the left. Like, this could have been an easy election, but these are all self-inflicted wounds. As I said, a replacement-level Democrat who at least kind of acknowledged the left in some way had a more reasonable foreign policy in whether it was in Palestine or whether it's in Ukraine and the economy being what it is, the jobs being what they are, and going up against Donald Trump, who is a mad man who attempted a coup, this should have been a cakewalk. And instead, we're looking at it like, "God damn it, dog." - Also- - You might have to step aside. - Also, it might be a cakewalk. - I don't know. - Because up until election night, this is the red wave thing, right? It's just like, "Holy shit, we're looking at a red wave." 11 p.m. on that night, it's like, "No, we're not." This is the exact opposite, right? And this is the whole dead internet theory if it's just loading this theory. And the 2000 election was spoken of the same way that we're talking now. It's just like, how did the Dems fuck this up? This should not be this close. Donald Trump is the worst president of all time. This is the easiest election. Turns out, it was a very easy election. They lost George- - No, this is true. I'm just saying, I think the example you gave of the recent French election is poignant here because all it took was a bit of cooperation. Between the left and the center left to beat Le Pen. And I don't think that's particularly a different situation here, except for the fact that Biden has alienated the left in a way that is so profound that I think they actually have to replace him with, say, Kamala Harris, who may have similar policies, maybe a pill-popping cop. But at the end of the day, she hasn't done the same things that he did when he was in charge. - I am curious to see how much his foreign policy mistakes, in my opinion, matter to voters who might change their minds. 'Cause foreign policy, as a whole, is never the first thing people say when they consider their vote. They always say, the economy, my jobs, security, my children, right? And of course foreign policy is right after that, immigration. But the minds of voters are tough to read. If someone could do it, they would win every election. But the foreign policy thing, fatigue is a horrible thing, and I think the Ukraine war is an example of that. That thing was so present in our minds for so long, and it just feels like, we're like, okay, we did that. It's like, no, it's still going on. It's still serious. People are dying. There are consequential things that could still happen, and we cannot take our eye off that ball. But people have moved on to other things, and I think that's just a way news and politics and attention spans work. And November is a few months away, and a lot can change from now until then, including Joe Biden's existence on planet Earth. He may be getting in that Danny Ainge bus, but I think it's gonna be hard to tell what people are gonna be caring about in October. I don't. - Look, I'm with you on the lack of primacy that goes along with foreign policy. - I agree, I agree, unless it's something like the Iraq War, which was so unpopular, because it was American soldiers dying, and American money being squandered, and it was on the news every day, that was tremendously unpopular, and Vietnam was in the same category. I don't think these things are in that category for the average voter at all. I guess what I'm saying is, what has alienated the left mattered to people on the left, which was a component to this alliance, but his health and his age are something that matter to everyone in his alliance. I think that's what I'm trying to get to. He could've had an alliance with the left, and that may have been effective and done the job, even with him crumbling. I just think there's just too many variables that are stacking up against him, where you've got people who don't like him for legitimate political reasons. Then you don't have people who are excited about voting for a man who would be, I mean, look, the thing about dementia is it doesn't get better with time, and to say we're gonna invest four years into this guy who basically can't carry on a conversation. It's tough, man. - Yeah, and I've been doing some Kamala Harris kind of investigating like being in a good year's profile, listening to podcasts, not perfect podcasts, but just podcasts about her. She's intriguing. Shout out to Kat Marnel, who's always kind of been pro Kamala. I think she is not like a polished politician. She's a prosecutor, and she is kind of by the books, and she has some kind of contradictions in her policy and her personal life that we know about, weed, and I think having her, not as like someone who can reach out and connect with an audience, has made her kind of the village idiot for the last three years. But when put to task, she is as presidential as the other two dudes who are in this Danny Ainge banana boat. And I think she wipes the floor with these guys because she's younger, and she's intelligent, and she's experienced. I don't know if there is a perfect candidate in my mind, but she's good enough. - I mean, I think Harris will benefit from low expectations in the way that her campaign was damaged by higher expectations. Because she was a sensation, when she was in Congress, grilling people during hearings, that she was a prosecutor, and she's smart and competent and ferocious. - Or did you not have that joint in your pocket? (chuckles) - Are you not on ambient right now? - Yeah. - But I think her position under Biden has been, you know, underwritten, and I don't mean underwritten, like paid for. I mean like, her role is not meaty, it's not even hit. - You all call ass roster spot, yeah. She wasn't utilized correctly. - She wasn't utilized enough. And I don't know why, because is this because the West Exact crew who runs the Biden administration wanted to keep Biden up there as this, you know, corpse mode figurehead, instead of elevating Harris as a potential threat to him? I don't know. I don't really know the architecture of who's running the show, because it's not really Biden, and it's not Harris, because vice presidents don't have that much power. But I do think that if you put her in a debate against Trump, if you put her on the campaign trail, she can generate enthusiasm that Joe absolutely cannot. And the idea of her being the first woman president instead of Hillary Clinton is awesome in my book. - Zach Edie, MVP of the NBA, Kamala Harris, president, sitting in the White House is awesome. It's amazing how we are, as a whole, discussing Kamala Harris's strengths and weaknesses and the potentiality of her getting more power and influence, as opposed to why Donald Trump isn't running with his former VP. Like, what happened there? What happened between Donald Trump and his vice president? Do we know about that? - Do you guys have sort of falling out? - That's like, maybe Kamala's in her feelings, you know, she's just not getting those minutes, those crunch time minutes. She's like, she's on the bench, she wants to be in the game. That's like, you know, she's in her feelings about that. What happened to Mike Pence? Like, did Donald Trump have any suggestions for his supporters regarding his vice president? - I felt like Mike Pence violated the bro code. - Whoa. - He wasn't a good wingman. Like, in the club, like Trump is trying to get that bottle service, get attention, the attention of the DJ, of the servers, and Pence was off trying to cozy up to security. - I feel like, you know, Pence may just have been an op. - Oh, was he a plant? Like a deep state plant? - A swamp thing? - An Indiana plant? - Like, Donald Trump never suggested his followers hang him, right? Like, break into a government building and hang his vice president. - No, I think it was just kind of like a disagreement between friends. I think they're still cool. - Oh, but can Kamala Harris handle foreign policy? Yeah, is she contradicting her stance on her prosecutorial stance on small crimes as opposed to her vice presidential demeanor? Is there a conflict there? Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, it's-- - Well, well, look, the biggest debate we have here, Andrew, the biggest question. Katelyn Clark, Angel Reese, who is your rookie of the year in the WNBA? - Whoever has a better record, it's all about those wins, baby. I got my, I'm grilling those enchiladas. I'm like, I got my chef's, tax sleeve tattoos. I got my grill master attire. Whoever has a better record is the better player. - I think whoever leads the duo in rebounds is the winner. - Wow, well, it is the most ethical statistic because unlike the chefs and these painters and these writers, I'm shoveling coal over here, getting these boards, stacking bricks. - So this debate, it went from college rivals, Iowa State, LSU, to being in the same draft. And at that point, it was presumed that Katelyn Clark was going to be a superstar and Angel Reese would be a good player. But Reese has had some excellent games and their rivalry based in some quarters, whether it's on race or culture, has now kept rolling. And we've discussed this a little bit, how the WNBA is still kind of in the 90s. And I have one theory on this and it's because they just don't have the amount of foreign players. - That's true. - It's tough to do that. It's tough to do that in the NBA right now. You're like, "Oh, I want to be a culture warrior." I'm like, "All right, so I like the Europeans," like Wambi and M-B-E-D and not M-B, but Wambi and Janis and, well, that doesn't quite work 'cause that's not really what I'm trying to say. Or not me, but the cultural warriors. The Europe versus US, it just doesn't quite work. - It's still like a young nation, right? And like, they're still trying to form the states and form the identity of their country. And the introduction of Caitlyn Clark is incredible. It is the Iversonian effect. It begins, I think, with Caitlyn Clark. And there's been inklings of her type of point of view with Sabrina UNESCO, Briana Stewart. Like, in the way, I don't think the WNBA has to shadow the NBA at all. It's its independent nation. It can break free of England. But ideas sort of like stretchability, vertical spacing, ideas in the margins that kind of make for a complex, fan experience, are happening in real time with the WNBA. And I try to resist the temptation to compare it to the NBA being like, well, to your point, like, yeah, when is the manu? When is the dirk? When is the different kind of cultural injection and clash going to change the scope, the complexion of these games? But maybe we are in still Charles Barkley, verse Michael Jordan, or Charles Oakley, versus Madgy Johnson. - I mean, it's not necessarily bird versus magic, exactly. But there's something about the Iverson comparison to Caitlyn Clark, which is really funny and maybe prescient because it's like a cultural flip-flop of the way where Iverson was introducing a younger generation and hip-hop culture and style and a way of playing into a league that was not conservative, exactly. It's the NBA. But he was representative of an alien force that people were hostile towards. He was a threat, he was a gentrifier. - He was a, but of like a totally flipping of the culture. In a way, then Caitlyn Clark is not solely beloved by like right-wing white people. I mean, everyone likes her, she's good, she's a good player. But the people who are rooting the hardest for her have a cultural investment in almost the way that people who are rooting for Alan Iverson, like ourselves, had a cultural investment in the summer of 1996 when the NBA began. - And it's disingenuous 'cause it really doesn't reflect the performance on the court because in a vacuum, Caitlyn Clark is a goat potential and Angel Reese is awesome. Completely different worlds, like you cannot compare Demar de Rosa to Paula George. You can try, but like, we're dealing with two different things, right? And to your point, it is, it feels like it feels like politics. Whatever you believe in, this is ethical basketball again. I think we're arguing about what we're comfortable with and the stories in which we've decided are true versus evolving beyond that. It's like, are we ready to change yet or are we comfortable with the things we know? - And I will say that Caitlyn Clark still turns the ball over a lot. She's been really good lately. - And I hate to be that guy, those sizzles, but like, you kind of, those, you know, we had this argument about turnovers in the NBA a few months ago. And, you know, I said that turnovers kind of are the ultimate sin of a possession. You don't wanna give away a possession. And you express something that is kind of true too, which is even more true, maybe, is like, not all turnovers are created equal. And certain players who commit certain turnovers are so valuable in their court spacing and vision and geometry that you live with that because in the end, you're gonna win that game. - Yeah, to me, it comes down to can, okay, well, it's a good example, this is more NBA. Tyrese Maxi is an awesome player. Fantastic assist to turnover ratio. It's valuable. Him not turning the ball over is valuable. He's a scorer, he creates some assist, but that's generally just like passing the ball. You know, he drives, he kicks the ball to somebody. He's not really creating in the same way of like a James Harden. And this is why, look, there are people like Tyrese Halliburton who can act in both roles with super low turnovers, and that's really important. And I think this idea that we discussed a few years back about James Harden in particular, how many turnovers he had, ethical basketball, is that the NBA with spacing has made it easier for guys who are not elite passers to generate opportunities and assists with lower risk of turnover. Like that's just occurred. You know, LeBron turned the ball over a ton. Trey Young turned the ball over a ton. That Luca Dancic turns the ball over a ton, that model of the, you know, heliotropic superstar who you run the whole offense through, they were naturally going to create turnovers. And now you can look at say a team like the Celtics, for example, who don't have great passers, but can spread the floor and move the ball around where they can kind of minimize turnovers and don't necessarily need to rely on someone who is a fantastic passer to get open looks. So it's this adjustment of the game and I think there will be an adjustment back when you get guys like Yoakich or maybe Wendy and they're going to figure out ways to take that spacing and be even more incredible at generating shots for their teammates without causing that many turnovers either. Like this is all a cyclical thing here. It's always going to come back to the ability to be a brilliant passer is valuable. But I think this is where we're at with Kaitlyn Clark, right? This league is not caught up exactly in the same ways that these transformations of the NBA where she is figuring out how to be a James Harden and how to be a Steph Curry or a LeBron, an offensive linchpin that can generate 20 points a game but also 12 assists and just half of your teams, 75% of your team's points are coming from one person. - Yeah, and you know, if you hit your teammate in the hands, I don't know what more you can do. And you know, there's going to be adjustment on both sides. Teammates will start expecting those passes and chemistry, all that. I feel like this is an awesome debate. I'm here for the Kaitlyn Clark, everything. And there's a fatigue, talk about fatigue, growing in my circles of just like, I don't want to talk about Kaitlyn Clark. It's so boring. And I'm like, dude, we argue about LeBron versus Michael Jordan for the last like 10 years. Like, this is what we do. This is great. Just say you don't want to talk about basketball because like, this is awesome. And I do want to compare, to finish my earlier thought, I do want to compare the WNBA to the NBA because that's a rich resource of basketball information that we can transmute and transfer, right? And it tells us, it simulated something that we can reference. So for the, like, what is actually sexist? Dismissing it or taking it seriously? - Yeah, this is true. I don't know, I just really think we as usual are really correct. And no, in compartmentalizing that the WNBA is not in the same era as the NBA. And it's not there. And this is not a comment on the style of play or the quality of play. We're just talking culturally and conversationally and its position within how we discuss sports. And it's going in that direction. And the Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese thing is fantastic for that. And when people say, well, look, I value Caitlin Clark's assists and her scoring and her three point shooting and her spacing and she's running the offense. And someone says, yeah, but she's turning the ball over rapidly, she's taking too many threes. She's not a good defender. I like Angel Reese. Angel Reese is crashing the board. She's scoring some points. She's a better defender. She's like, great. These are actual basketball arguments. We're not talking about like, ha, ha, ha, imagine a girl playing ball. - You don't know ball? Yeah, it's just like-- - No, we're talking hoops. And like, as you said, if you don't wanna talk about that, you don't like Sacramento Kings basketball, baby. - Right, right. It's like, yeah, I'll be tuning into the Clippers versus the Nuggets until 1 a.m. tonight. It's just like, I'm so tired of it. I'm like, I get it. Like, the bear should not be for everyone. Basketball should not be for everyone. The W NBA should not be for everyone. It's like, you know what? I don't like this debate. I'm like, I bet you don't. But I agree with you arguing about a traditional, arguing the difference between a traditional big, the value of a traditional big versus like a court spacer, passer, someone strange, is like never ending and delicious. And I love this shit. Like, Moses Malone versus Alan Iverson. Like, okay, bring out those beers. - You know what we're gonna do? We're gonna talk meaty or ick. - Meaty or ick. But you know what I mean? It's just like, I think one of our friends posted something being like, you guys weren't talking shit about Moses Malone. So now all of a sudden Angel Resent good. And I'm like, yo, this is crazy. I had not thought about Moses Malone for a while, but like, I am willing to talk shit about him. I just went on Twitter and I was like, I think Kevin Garnett's better than Michael Jordan. Because like, things have to change. Everything in life changes. Neighborhoods, the value of money, music, food. Every single thing in this world changes, including basketball. It's not trapped in amber. And the discussions supporting that are so much fun to have. - And my take is, how dare you? How dare you compare her to Moses Malone? Come on. - I'm not sure whose side you're on here. I'm like, yes, drag, Reese or Moses, which one? - I'm on the Moses side. That's one of the most underrated plays ever. It's not just 'cause he was a good rebounder. He's like, he's a goat. Come on. Compare her to, as you were saying, compare her to Andre Drummond. Like, why is Moses getting dragged into this? But as we like basketball, so it's great. - Shout out to plumbers. I don't know why they've catch so many strays. Like plumbers are very valuable people who will shit in my bathroom the first thing they do when they come in the door. Like, we don't have to use that analogy for Moses Malone's era, right? They could be like stockbrokers. Oh, it's just Moses and a bunch of stockbrokers. (laughing) - Bunch of admin. - Yeah. They can't touch a glass. Get out of here. Plumbers can probably touch glass and porcelain. - I mean, I guess it's a nod to the league not being professionalized yet, but you could totally do that with that, these are a bunch of lawyers running around out there. - Yeah, these are a bunch of chiropractors. Shootin' bricks, layin' bricks. Not like real brick layers. - Speakin' of real brick layers. - Oh no, who's gonna, who's the ire of this analogy? - Let's talk about your man, Clay Thompson. Most known for going O of 10 in an elimination game, the longtime member of the Golden State Warriors dynasty or would-be dynasty or so-called dynasty, has decamped to Dallas, joining Luca Donchich and Kyrie Irving on last year's finals loser, who is, well, if we're even gonna say there was a finals this year. - Dallas BBQ Chicken. - Yeah man. - The Asterix season. But Clay Thompson, Dallas, how do you feel about the splintering apart of the Golden State Warriors' dynastic squad? - Whatever, time is time. And whoever signed, I think Myers was the last, one of his last big moves was to sign Jordan Poole. People blame it on Draymond Green's punch and his demeanor. Draymond Green is the reason why they're still good. Draymond Green is the reason why we're talking about this team at all, along with, obviously, healthy clay and stuff. But they pushed him out the door. He wanted money, they wouldn't give it to him. Something happened with Andrew Wiggins that we still don't know about. That's not our business. But that kind of dissolved on them. So I think business is business here. I know Clay does, I'm sure. But that ended in kind of a melancholy way, 'cause I really enjoyed those three players for a long time. I would have just signed him for that money, but you're trying to win games. And Nepo Baby, Mike Dunley v. Junior, is trying to make the last years of Curry valuable still. So re-signing Clay for, I think he wanted more than 20 million or around 20 million. If I'm not mistaken, was not the way to win games, 'cause he had depreciated to the point where he was not up to replacement level quite. Yeah, he was coming off the bench. Does it give $20 million to him out of set of mental value, or looking for? Not with that heart apron. I mean, I guess for me looking at that Golden State dynasty, as someone who was often a justified critic. Justified. You called them frauds and they won the championship. You called the last four championships frauds, and then they all won. Well, that's neither here nor there. All right, we'll get to that later. What I'm saying about Golden State was that they earned my respect. I love it. By sticking together and eking out that one last bullshit chip. Like seriously, they did, because up until then, they'd really just kind of won one title before KD got there, and they weren't good for that long. They had a strange rise and fall. But I really do respect them now, because they stuck it out. And they won that, they won that. Yeah, no, just for those who are acquainted with my correct view. But I don't think they owed us. - They're not the title in one real one. - But they did, they won one real one, they did it. And them winning that late championship, I think, proved the value of keeping that crew together longer than they needed to. And they stuck with it, and they got that extra chip, and they really solidified themselves as like a true dynasty, I thought, with that. And just at least to me. But they don't have to do that anymore. They did it. So when people say I wish they could have figured this out, and they could have kept Clay there, that would have been cool to have him spend his whole career in Golden State. And him and Curry and Draymond all retired together, solely being warriors. But I don't think that's necessary. I think they proved everything they needed to do in a warrior's uniform. And this is the way that dynasties fall apart. And I look at the bull's dynasty, and it's sort of artificial ending, where Phil Jackson leaves, MJ bounces, the team trades everybody, and it was just over. And the Golden State dynasty feels more like life, and they did what they're supposed to do. And good luck to Clay, good luck to the warriors. And I'm not saying I want to see Curry go play for another team, or Draymond do the same. But they have nothing left to prove to us. They should live out your lives how you want. You're in retirement now. - I mean, yeah, I am one for flowery narratives, and the ideas of the process, and dynasties, and friendship. Like, I could give a fuck about Villanova. I could give a fuck about like, did the process work or not? And like, this warriors team was over last year, poor forever broke overnight. They broke overnight last season. So like, if I were a Warriors fan, specifically, I would ask myself the question, like, do I want this for my memory, or do I want to win more games? Kind of tough to decide. I would side on winning more games, because it just goes by too fast, and Seth Curry is still a top 10 player. Clay was bad last year, and he kind of recovered from his catastrophic injuries in a way, but mentally is more complicated, and there was chatter of him being, whoever, there's a leaker, there's a rat in Golden State. Whoever put out that pool footage, whoever leaked that, like, Clay was really tough to be around, and he was just sulking around. Yeah, Clay kind of saw the writing on the wall, and he kind of understood time better than his other guys, who, you know, Dre and Steph didn't have career threatening injuries. And of course Clay was melancholy, 'cause his body didn't respond to his brain, and he was no longer the good ISO defender, he was no longer the knockdown shooter, he was no longer quick. His brain moved faster than his body, and that's sad, that's just getting older. They're probably better without him, which sounds heartless, but like, your boy Buddy Heald is there, and they added slow-mo, like, this team is as formidable as it was last year, if not more, but it doesn't have the aura. Yeah, and again, I think they didn't pull the plug on this team prematurely, they let it-- Yes, they gave it a shot. They gave it a shot, they let it wheeze to, you know, it's deathbed in this current incarnation, and that doesn't mean that you have to let Clay Thompson play in a warrior's uniform for as long as he wants for as much money as he wants. Like, those just are not the requirements of this situation, you know? I mean, the guy is gonna be 35 this year, he's come back from injuries, he's clearly not the same. If he said, "Hey, I'll stay here for eight million bucks," but if he wanted 20, you don't have to give it to him, it's just, that's not the requirement for seeing this through, you know, goes both ways. I didn't think last year he was horrendous or anything, but he wasn't that great, you know? Clay did something incredibly smart and ethical and incredibly dumb. The first ethical smart thing he did was give the Lakers the middle finger, sort of like when Starks was traded to the Bulls, he was like, "I'd rather retire, fuck that team forever." I think Clay is just like, "Fuck the Lakers, "my father's calling games, it's LeBron wants me, "he wants to take a pick up for me, "I would never put on the Golden Purple." Ethical king right there, I think. But he did something really stupid, in my opinion, or maybe not as savvy, which was he identified his need, which was he wants to win games. But he identified the wrong team, 'cause the Mavericks were a fifth seed that got incredibly lucky. I don't think they're titled contenders, even with him. They are not top dogs in the West. I wish he had gone with someone better. But he's like not that good anymore. Shout out to Clay Thompson, what I love as a player, his career, but he's not good anymore. - And I look at Dallas, and I don't love the pick up for them, but I get why they did it too. - Sure. - Because you got Luca, you got Kyrie. And the Celtics exploited the fact that the other players they put around that star duo, they could hit some baseline threes. But once you started getting them up above the free throw extended, above the arc, you could live with it. - There's always a place for a shooter. - And whatever Clay's shooting was, an elimination game going 0 of 10, you still don't leave him open. You can't leave Clay Thompson open. - You might, if you're a smart coach, maybe you do, right? - I mean, it's possible, but generally speaking, you just don't leave Clay Thompson open. Like he's, even me as a Clay Thompson skeptic at the stage of his career, when he puts up a shot, I'm generally like off. I'm like, eh, I'm not worried. But you still got to guard him. That's, his track record is too high. - Yeah. I mean, if he drops nine threes on you, you're not like, well, that came out of nowhere. He has a reputation. - No. - Yeah. - He keeps the defense honest is what you're saying. - I think he really does, because even though teams are disciplined, I do think if you see Clay Thompson out there wide open, you're kind of not feeling great about it. - But wouldn't you rather have seen Clay like in San Antonio? Wouldn't that have been more fun? Are they as good as the Mavs right now? - Mm-hmm, Andrew, I'm a big fan of that what you just asked. No, no, seriously, who has a better record next year? The Mavs or the Spurs? - I mean, with everyone healthy? I think it's quite possibly the Spurs, especially with their additions of Harrison Barnes. This week, I don't know, we talked about Castle last week in CP3, but like, Wendy's going to be a year older. Like, they could win some games. Wendy is the best defender in the NBA. - I mean, is, is Wendy going to be the best player in the NBA this year? I don't know. I think he's going to be top five. He might be the best. - Not to top. - He's just stupid. He's just stupid. I don't even need a big win-be-comber's engine. He's just stupid and he does so, so much. I was going to say on both sides of the ball, that you add like Chris Paul, just a functional smart guy who can defend still, who can throw lobs, who can shoot. You put on Barnes, who I'm not crazy about, but he's a functional NBA player. - It makes him interesting again, right? I mean, as interesting as Harrison Barnes can be. - Exactly, right? And not to talk about a third-rail world, but gambling and fantasy-wise, like, I remember last year we had done a draft and someone paid like $60 for Wendy and me and you were both like, that's the last time he's going to be under 80. We should have just taken him. He's like a number three overall pick at this point. Like, you're banking on him to be a lead of elite bigs, right? - Oh, of course. And, you know, someone like Barnes, there are parts of his game I don't love. He seems like one of those dudes every now and then gets a ball and it's like, it's time for Harrison Barnes to take a shot. And those are guys that I don't generally really enjoy having around, but that said, he has a pretty good diet of, you know, taking and making threes going back to 2015. He's shooting 38% on for a game. And now all of his minutes are pretty much at power forward. That's a good duo, you know? He's a, he can rebound enough. You got Wembley, you got a floor spacer. He'll, he's not a passer or a creator, but he knows how to play. So I like, I like Barnes there as a functional player in a way that, you know, Soshan wasn't necessarily. - Sohan was weird. - Yeah, whatever, Sohan, Sohan. - Sorry. - Sohan's still gonna play. - Yeah, and they had them out of position for a lot of the times. They were just kind of trying to figure out this thing that no one has seen before. Yo, is this team, like, Clay Thompson should have signed with the Spurs, right? Like, this team is going to be the team that makes noise. - I, I'm a Mav skeptic a little bit, you know? Never doubt the God, a goat player like Luca, but their front line is not skilled enough to compete against these big dogs. - I mean, I think the Mavs will be good too. I think it's less, less a criticism of the Mavs than looking at the upside of a Spurs team where, I mean, here's the thing that's amazing about Mb, among zillions, is just that we still don't know, and we're only getting inklings of what Mb will look like as a superstar. And I think it's just gonna arrive faster than we imagine. Because I don't think, no, I mean, I think he's a mix of yokech in terms of bringing the ball down and playing like LeBron at the point and controlling the offense as a floor spacer also. I just don't think this idea that he's gonna get strong and then operate from the block is even in play at this point. Like, he may do that. I just don't think that's what he's gonna do. - I think internationally, right now, for France, he's like kind of, he's the finesse guy. I think he's taking some threes. And the plan, like I hate to Mitch Robinson, like bulking up, kind of like taking away his speed and his weirdness, it wouldn't be be weird. Let him be the alien, bro. And have you seen those shoes out in the wild? Are they in the basement with vision pros? - I-- - Shoot, dudes. - Don't, I don't know that they've actually put out real wembe's yet. - Okay, so that was just a prototype or a leak. - Yeah, I think they leaked the logo and then I believe the other ones were someone inventing them, like this is like using AI to like be like, this is what the wembe shoe could look like. I think because he just, the wembe one is not out and he's not wearing like a wembe. - What the hell? This is like some hawk to a slow release. Yo, like, let's get to it. A kid should have been wearing wembe's this summer. - I mean, it takes a little while. While he's wearing the, he's wearing new sneakers, but they're the GT, I think it's the GT Hustle 3, is what he's wearing. - I mean, it took-- - Which are cool, which are cool. - Yeah. - The GTs are good. - Yeah. Do you think the thunder got better with Hartenstein? Do you think Chet Hartenstein, AKA cookies and cream are our final shoe ins? I mean, the biggest point about Clay going anywhere in the West is what the hell you gotta go through? - The West is very good. The East is good. - I wanna win. - The West is very good. - The West is good. I wanna win a title. I'm gonna go to the Mads, like. - What the fuck? - I mean, I know they were in the finals, but it's a little different. - Yeah, dude. - I've seen, so you gotta go through Minnesota again. You gotta go through Yokech and Denver again. You gotta go through OKC, who's gonna be better? - Lebron lives. - Lebron's around. Wimby is morphing into a monster before our eyes. - It's rough out there, and the Kings, I don't know. I kinda wanna touch on Hartenstein before we get into Demar DeRozan, but Hartenstein got it. - So the grizzly, the grizzlies are gonna be good. - Exactly. - All right. But no, they're gonna be good. If Jaz's healthy, they're gonna be good. Okay, let's talk Hartenstein for a second here, though. I did not think anyone would offer him 30 million a year. - That's crazy. Shout out to Hartenstein. - Did not see that coming. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. I hate the apron. I want all these guys to get paid, but I'm a fan of him and get your money, dude. - And look, I think he benefited from a rare set of circumstances where there were not very many good, legit centers on the market, and one team who had a specific need for that and a bunch of money. We've seen really good centers not get very much money because of the opposite set of circumstances. Oh, there's a bunch of good big men out there, and a lot of suitors, not the case. - Okay, see, clearly, cleared this money. They wanted an interior presence, and they went and got one. - This is always like, when I hear people say like, "The price for contemporary artwork is insane." Like, these cannot cost more than a house. I'm like, "Well, Paul George, for example." It's like, why did he cost three times as much as the Marta Rosen? If there's two people who want you, it's not a reflection of the market. It's a reflection of need, right? We went through years of trying to figure out what a fungible token was. A painting is one of one. If you fall in love with it and someone else does, it's gonna drive the price up. It's not a reflection of the market. It's a reflection of the thing and someone who wants that thing, and, okay, see, he wanted that thing. - And I do think the Knicks probably were down to pay him a good amount, but they just couldn't give him rules. - It was the rules. - And it was the rules. They were capped at 18, I believe. - Yeah. - I mean, great. I like Hardin's son so much. He's a backup center, man. Like, he's a great backup center, but like, I think the Thunder are more exciting with him and can probably do damage, but like... Michael Bridges is the top 75 player. Hardin's team is a backup center. But these are important pieces, and if you need a player in the margins and all the guys are off the board, you're gonna have to pay for them. - But the weird thing about him being a backup center is that he's probably a top 25 center. You know, like there are teams that... There are teams that he is better than the current starter, but they don't still want off. - But his value is off the bench, right? - Sort of. I mean, that was his value with the Knicks, obviously. I just mean that it's weird. - Michael Bridges is like a top 70 player, but Hardin's team might be at least average at his position. - I like him so much. As soon as you pay a player in the margin, star money, they change. Then they kind of have to be stars. Just because of the dumb salary cap. - Assuming health is, you know, as a baseline for all teams involved, I don't see... Okay, see, losing in the West. That team is with Caruso and Hardin's team. That team is gnarly, and they lost... You know, I think Giddy's could be a good player, but he wasn't a major contributor on that team. Down the line, we may say that they lost the trade if Giddy emerges and becomes, you know, a triple double machine on Chicago and all that. You know, between, of course, meaty or ick. But, okay, see this year, with Caruso and Hardin's team, their defense is gonna be insane. The offense is gonna be extremely good. They're gonna be good on the boards. I don't know how you beat that team. I mean, that's a squad. - The description of Shay being the toughest offensive player to guard because he moves backwards and forwards at the same time was so beautiful. I thought that was just like... I think, who said Trey? I think said it from New Orleans. New Orleans, but like, it is such a great way to describe that superstar. And like, I want that team to win the championship, or multiple championships so much because that team build is so weird and constructed aggressively through trades and through investing of draft picks that like, in my opinion, that kind of behavior should be rewarded with some victories. - It's funny that we look at their rebuild and view it as intense tanking. And that was part of it. But in the same way that Philly's rebuild with Hinky was fast, we're talking about two and a half seasons. - Yeah. - Now, it wasn't that they were bad for 10 years which is now the idea that people describe with the Sixers. Well, they're bad for 35 years. Of course, they ended up with some good players. Like, no, no, they tanked for like two and a half years. - Yeah, you don't have to do it for long. - Yeah, and that's what happened in OKC. They went with the burn it all down but in the process they got back SGA and then they got back to picks that became Jalen Williams and now Giddy was then traded and they signed people and cleared the books. They did this fast aggressively. This is how you're supposed to do it. - And they missed out on a lot of picks. Like, Poku ends up being not in the NBA. - Mm-hmm. - Gorgeous. Osman Jang, like, probably is not gonna pan out. Like, they tried the wet noodle thing and they got one. - Right, right. And yeah, there was a couple other guys in that mix too that they've traded off as well. - Yeah, I believe most of them are like not in the NBA anymore which is wild. But, you know, a lot of nicks people in their feelings and I was kind of sad he left too, but not really but the people who I talked to were like, how, why would you leave New York City for Oklahoma City? Like, that is just a life decision I would not make. You take less money to play in the mecca. I'm like, dude, he doesn't wanna live in Tarrytown anymore 'cause like, let's be honest, he's not at Lava Meatballs. He's like resting up near the practice facility and then he's on the road to Indiana or Oklahoma City. And the money difference is just too big. Like, whatever, he can come back to New York if he wants to. I think the door is always open if he is up for like a free agent signing down the road. But yeah, he enters a great situation in Oklahoma City. That team looks like they're having fun as much fun as the Villanova nicks. - I agree with that. And also, the guy was thinking it was Trey Mann, another top 18 pick that didn't pan out. - Is he selling the link? - Last I heard from him, I wanna say he was on Charlotte. I could be wrong. I think that's where he was shot. - What are they doing over there? - Yeah, that's a different conversation. Just weirdly looking at OKC's draft history. I mean, as you said, they're moving around a lot. The guys they've technically drafted that are interesting are technically, are Immanuel quickly, technically draft. - Sure. - Miles McBride, technically drafted. Sangoon, technically drafted. I mean, they were just moving around the draft. But yeah, they've had an interesting draft history. They've made tons of moves. And yeah, there was kind of a little tango with OKC in the nicks during the last draft where they were just kind of flopping trades back and forth throughout the whole thing. - They're day traders, right? They're guys who kind of stick by their computer and kind of move stocks around and sometimes end up with GameStop at the right time. And then there's another strategy, which is just like build, you know, throw pieces of clay onto the pieces of clay. Sort of like Demar de Rosen adding to Sabonis and Dearrin Fox, right? - This strikes me a little bit like the conversation we had last week about the Pelicans where in the way that OKC has a worldview, we know what they're trying to do. Okay, you're gonna draft for length. Now you're drafting for defense. Now you're drafting for value. You're making these moves. And then you look at the Kings like, what are you trying to build here? Okay, you got this high speed team where you're running the dribble handoff and it's based on Sabonis and Fox and they're excellent at that. And adding shooters that surround you and like, well, what about Demar de Rosen? Like I takes no threes and loves jab stepping and taking mid-range jumpers. I think he's a good fit for what we're doing. In the same way I looked at last week and said, you know, I really want Pelicans to run through Zion, but instead, now it's gonna be the Dejante Murray Show. What do you like this for the Kings? Or does it bug you in the same way that bugs me that the Pelicans don't have a worldview? Leading the witness. But I think adding Demar de Rosen doesn't hurt your team ever. He's a good player who is good at stuff. I know they're not calling fouls in the way they did because they changed the rules on us. But like he kind of has an efficiency to him by getting to the line, by hitting free throws. I hate this move because it doesn't make them that much better. It doesn't make them into contenders. It doesn't change the view to your point of what they're trying to do. They're just being like, let's just get better at what we do. And I'm like, but I thought what you did was pace and Garen Fox and transition. Subonis is already a stationary kind of force. And if we want to compare players like that, Angel Reese kind of prototype. He kind of shies away from the three point line more than I'd like him to, but is a devastating rebounder and a very trustworthy score. This team may be in Oklahoma City, Minnesota, probably not the Mabs. This team is kind of the best, a small market team can do, right? - Yeah, I think-- - That's a small market. - No, I understand what you're saying is like, if you're a small market team and you're OKC, you're not relying on talent from elsewhere to lead the charge. You're adding a Hartenstein as supporting talent that you're overpaying. And that's what you can do is a small market team. And when you're the Sacramento Kings, you're doing the same thing with Demarder Rosen. You're saying, well, we can't really recruit elite talent to come here. The talent we have isn't good enough to win. So we need just more talent. How do we get more talent in this building? Well, Demarder Rosen, if we can figure out how to use him at 34, 35 years old, who still has a useful skill set, maybe we can cook. It's just a talent deficit. And you say, well, perhaps we can sort this shit out. I look at it and say, this doesn't fit what you're doing. Yeah, but maybe we should do something else. What we were doing wasn't gonna win with what we had. And I don't know how we were gonna get that much better. We had the best offense in history two years ago. So maybe Demarder Rosen, as a wrinkle to what we're doing, can make us better. We know he's a good basketball player. - Rana Divas, I can change him. I can see him. - Right, not exactly. Not saying I subscribed to this philosophy, I just feel like you would have to subscribe to this philosophy in order to make this move. - Yeah, and the last big pieces on the table as of this recording were him and Laurie Markinin. And it seems like Laurie Markinin's price tag is huge because from beyond the grave, Danny Ainge and Joe Biden are asking probably for many draft picks and young players and all that. And Demarder Rosen wasn't that expensive in terms of collateral. So if I was a Kings fan, I'd be like, that's fine. When the dust settles, we got one of the guys. - I think you can also look at it and say, the odds of us winning, as currently constructed, were approaching zero. And when I say winning, I mean, even making it to the conference finals or let alone the finals, we're very close to zero. - I agree, I agree. - Der Rosen in theory may be better in theory. - Yeah, I mean, he's an all star, right? In a vacuum, like he is a star. But this is like, as a long-suffering Knicks fan in my black and white makeup on my face and a top hat, I think this is the move that I dread, which is the aging star who doesn't quite add as much on the court in terms of actions as they do in terms of like a spiritual way. - And I think you could also look at it and say, you had Dante DiVincenzo, you had him. That's a useful guy, he fits your system. He would've been great, but you moved him. - I mean, a lot of teams gave up on Dante. Slam Genaro. - Oh, oh, I agree, I just mean, you let him walk. And he's a guy who would've been really excellent to have on your team. - He only played 25 games with them. That's crazy. Moon lighting. - I'm not, I just mean, sorry to interrupt. I just meant like, if you would say, who would help your team more right now? DiMarder Rosen or Dante DiVincenzo, I think Dante would be your answer. - I know. Do you think there is some truth to like players who can handle the gravity of the moment? Dante has proved that he can, obviously. But at the time, he was a player in the margins. And we know everyone knows, players in the margins win games and playoff series. But there's a difference between him at that time and a star player, right? Like, there are players who just have a different kind of team building gravity and on court gravity. Like DiMarder kind of leans on this, this religion. - Yeah, I mean, I like DiMarder, he's a good player. I just, we all know that he is a little retrograde in his skill set and he was utilized in San Antonio in a smart way, putting the power forward. And then Chicago did a lot of the same tactics by making him a kind of a small ball for, which presumably the kings are gonna do as well. - Does he benefit, does he get that Kendrick boost or that Kendrick, what's the opposite of the boost? - The Kendrick, the Kendrick slump? - Yeah, the Kendrick, the Kendrick curse. 'Cause, man, I know he's a star, but like, I don't see him as good as your guy Dante, or the amount of touches he's gonna get, like, is he more effective than Harrison Barnes? Yeah, but by how much? - I mean, I like him better than Barnes, but he also can't space the floor like Barnes. - And his usage is much higher than Barnes. He demands more of your pie during a game. It's fine, it's really beige. - Yeah, but yeah, that's what I was gonna get to. I'm like, they weren't gonna win without them. They are not gonna win with them. Okay, best of luck. Before we get out of here, you had made a point when we were chatting for the show and you said, "Sixers GM Darryl Maury won the summer." - However, I'm setting up-- - Give me a little take on that. - I think when the hardened situation went down, he was desperately trying to clear space for a star. Looking into the horizon, it was gonna be Paul George. Joel Embiid's window is now, he got Paul George. I know the big three model is kind of debated, but he identified, did he draft Tyree's maxi? - Yeah, I don't know if it was his scouting 'cause he'd just been hired, but that was Maury's best draft. And I'm not saying that with any judgment on who made those calls, he was in charge so he gets credit, but it was Maury, I'm sorry, it was Maxi, Isaiah Jo, basketball Paul, and Charles Bassie, who was now on the Spurs, were all from that draft. - It's not bad. So like, I don't, obviously, the ultimate goal is to win a championship, but Maury's promise was to surround and beat with a chance to win. Injuries derail them, I still think they're the better team than the Knicks, but the Knicks got it done. This is an awesome result of his tenure in Philly. Maxis, max contracts. I don't love him as much as other people. I think he's a bit one-dimensional for me, but is a really good player. You have him on lock. You've acquired Paul George, who's like old, unsexy. People are tired of him, fatigued. People roasted him, then respected him, now just don't want to think about him. He's a good defender, he's a smart player. He's one of the pieces that fits perfectly next to your generational center. - One thing to that point, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. No, you were leading it? No, you were leading it up to a good point. I want to hear it, sorry. - Removing Tobias Harris from the equation is going to do wonders for this team in the RJ Barrett Knicks away. I think not only adding these pieces, it's like your diet, right? You cannot eat more salad and get healthier. It's what you take away from your diet that ultimately makes you healthy. Respected Tobias Harris, who's a great businessman, who's a really good basketball player. He's not on the Sixers anymore, and that's a big deal. - Yeah, when I look at the Philly rotation and it's a distinct lack of passing, it does bug me. There's some rules. - For sure. - Dymaxed assist-pilled. Like, I want to see some passing, and Philly has irked me over the years with its lack of high basketball IQ. - Even McCain, though? - McCain, I just haven't seen him play enough, but I also think, yeah, yeah, I don't think he's going to be a notable passer, but we'll see. But I also think that, you know, I've been spoiled. I've watched Hardin and Simmons and Butler and some guys who really are good passers. Al Horford's a good passer for a big man. But currently, they just don't have any of those kind of guys on this team. I also think that maybe I am underestimating what it's like not to have Tobias Harris on the team for six years as like the NBA's worst decision maker, foremost coagulant of like offensive stagnets and defensive. He's an assassin. But in my mind, I may have been, I may be dealing with generational trauma about the fact that-- - But do you win the bear, too? - That Tobias Harris has gummed up the offense for so long that they've needed these advanced passers to make up for that fact. And maybe you don't. Maybe if you get him off the court and you have regular guys who can pass, like Embiid and Maxie and Paul George and a couple other guys. - Kalari, coming back? - Well, yeah, Kalari, look, I think, I do not believe that Kelly Ubray is going to be starting for the team that long. - It's Kayla Martin, right? - Martin's going to start, probably. But I think Ubray gets traded in like December, January, whenever he can be traded. - He's a useful player. - I think they re, I think they re-signed him to trade him. - Fair enough. - But yeah, without Tobias Harris, maybe I'm underestimating the benefit of his absence. - Yo, just flip him for Kayla Martin, who's like a fine player. I like how tall he is. He's not great, he's not bad. But like that exchange of minutes is a big swing, I think, sort of like putting Josh Hart where RJ Barrett used to be. - You know what else is a big swing under? (upbeat music) - This ball? (laughs) - Cookies. (laughs) ♪ I love for games ♪ ♪ I love for games ♪ ♪ I love for games ♪ ♪ I love for games ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)