Test Match Special

Shoaib Bashir: England's New Star Spinner

Henry Moeran is joined by the former England spinner Phil Tufnell, Sussex head coach and former England assistant coach Paul Farbrace and three-time Ashes winner Steven Finn to discuss the meteoric rise of England's new star spinner Shoaib Bashir after he tore through the West Indies batting lineup to secure victory for England in the second Test at Trent Bridge on Sunday.

Captain Ben Stokes says Bashir's "shown the world what he can do" after becoming the youngest England bowler to take a five-wicket haul in a home Test aged just 20 years and 282 days old.

Somerset head coach Jason Kerr also joins the pod to talk about discovering Bashir playing for Berkshire against the Somerset second team and how he has the skills and temperament to make it to the very top.

Duration:: 28m
Broadcast on:: 23 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Hi, I'm Graham Klass, host of Technically Speaking and Intel Podcast. Join me for Season 2 as we explore the future of technology evolving today. In each episode, I'll speak with the minds transforming medicine, healthcare, retail, entertainment, personal computing, and more with the help of AI. Join me every other Tuesday and explore the latest technology changing our world today and creating a more accessible tomorrow. Listen to Technically Speaking and Intel Podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. From Five Life Sports, this is the TMS Podcast. Hello and welcome to the Test Match special podcast with me, Henry Moran, as we take a closer look at England's new Star Spinner. Not so much a case of 'Bazball' at Trembridge on Sunday, but 'Bashball'. Show Bashir taking 5 for 41 to tear through the West Indies batting lineup and secure victory for England. Captain Ben Stokes says he's shown the world what he can do Bashir becoming the youngest England bowler to take a five-wicket haul in a home test in the first spinner to take five in and innings at Trembridge since 2006. He's just 20 years old as well and afterwards. He spoke to our cricket correspondent Jonathan Agnew. Many congratulations. Well, that's fantastic performance. Yeah, it was special first time I bought in England for England as well. So, yeah, it was quite special to finish it off in a session. That's right. We were talking about it being your second test, but of course you didn't do anything in the first. Yeah, it was a quiet one in the first, so obviously it was Jimmy's last test. And just to be a part of that was special and to play at Trembridge, first time I went to Trembridge as well, so it was very special. Good. How did you feel because there's always that little bit of extra pressure on a spinner, last test match, the day of a test match, a bit of turn and so on? Did you feel any of that or just go out and bowl? Oh, well, I watched in Clearball and he wasn't really getting what it's been, so I wasn't really hopeful, but I guess things can happen quite quickly and quick it, and yeah, it was just nice to get something out of the wicket and yeah, just bowl them up. Yeah, because you did turn it, actually. There were a couple of balls that turned nicely there towards the end. Yeah, it was nice. Yeah, don't really know what to say. No, well, just enjoy the occasion, enjoy the feeling. Who's helped you? Who are you talking to around this England camp? You're so new to it here. He went on to do India, but who's here? You do have? Everyone's so fair. The youngest in the group, everyone gets around me quite nicely. I work closely with Jim Patel. I've been bowling coach, obviously, and yeah, it's just nice. He gives me a lot of tips, hard to bowl on different wickets, obviously went to India. That's a different challenge out there, and I thought, first things, I wasn't as consistent as I probably should have been, and yeah, it's just nice in the second innings to cash in. Yeah. I mean, you are very inexperienced as a first-class group as well. So, to get a five-bookie all like this, I'm really set you up now. Yeah, it was a nice feeling, and yeah, still just trying to soak everything in. I've been so fast at last session, so yeah, just enjoying it. There aren't many off-spidders tall than me, show. I'll tell you that. So, that gives some idea of people listening. Wait, six foot, five, four? Six foot, four, yeah. Still grand. Sure, Beshir, chatting to Jonathan Agnew yesterday after he took the wickets to lead England to victory, and that unassailable lead in the series against West Indies. Paul Farbrase, how impressed were you with his performance in this test match? He's always the job of a spinner, final innings, try and take those wickets, but he bowled so well. He bowled brilliantly, and not only in the second innings where he took his fibre, but I thought first innings as well, the way that he adjusted his pace, and he looks to me as though he really enjoys bowling in the big occasion, but actually, skill levels are very, very impressive, but as I say, the thing that impressed me was how quickly he learned to change his pace in the first innings, and what he did do by bowling what, 25 overs in the first innings, it allowed the seamers, in particular, people like Woody, to actually be able to rest, and that's not something we've done in the brilliant English cricket for a long period of time, and he just looks and he sounds as though he thoroughly enjoys it, he sounds as though he's enjoying the challenge of test match cricket, but you know, an exceptional test match, but he looks at an exceptional talent, doesn't need to be fair. Yeah, three, five, we get holes in his first five tests, he didn't even bowl in the in the Lord's game, only the third Englishman to take five was in his first five tests, since the first world war in both of them, and Nick cooked the other on the impact, not in both, Nick cooked the other one, quite the introduction to test match cricket though, Steven said, I mean, what a remarkable remarkable performance it was. Yeah, he needs to slow down actually, because about the only lasting thing that I left on English cricket was being the youngest person to take 50 test wickets, and he's got about two years to clean that up, so yeah, I'm fading away into insignificant pretty quickly, but what I really like about him is similar to what Paul says, he doesn't look like a very flappable character, and that's what you want for your spinner, we've seen some spinners in the not too distant past, you have someone come after you, and you're phased by it, and it can affect your mindset, and how you come back for your second spell and the second innings. But he looked like someone who embraced the challenge of bowling a team out on the fourth and fifth days, and I would imagine being a spinner, that's the thing that puts you under the most pressure, I've been really impressed, and even in his early test matches in India, he was playing around with the angle of his run-up, he was playing around with where he bowled from on the crease, he was coming over and round, he was coming through and round, and I think that things like that and the confidence to do that is clearly helped by the captaincy and the environment that you have within that team, but also it shows someone who's more in tune with their bowling and maybe more mature than the amount of games that they've played suggests. Toughers, talk me through this height thing then, six foot four, I mean that is pretty massive for a spinner, the release point of 2.35 metres, apparently the third highest recorded by a spinner, why is that so significant, that height and that release point? Well, the release point, and the other thing that helps in with that release point, and he's got a really short deliveries to stride, when I played, when I got a bit tired or a bit sort of like pushing for something, my delivery stride sort of widened and got longer, and that means you collapse slightly and you lose your release point. So he's got a nice upright stance sort of coil position, short delivery stride, which then enables him to come over the top get bounce, which then he means it can bolt into the pitch, let's say on the first day, and it's not doing too much, and that means that he can sort of trap you in the crease, and he's quite difficult to come down the wicket too, and then as the game progresses from that height, he can still go over the top and get that drop as well. Also, have you seen the size of his fingers, he's got hands, like massive fingers which really wrap around that ball and can stick it in your hand and give it a really good rip. So I'm with Farby, I was very impressed with the way he sort of managed his test match, I mean it was, I say it was a very composed sort of performance, and he looks like he's got that spin as attitude, but he's also, he looks like he's got that sort of spin ball as intelligence as well, bold it a little bit straighter in that first innings, because it wasn't turning quite so much, and sort of got his results with that sort of too firm and enabled the scene ball as the other end to rotate, but that second innings he just played around with his flight, played around with his paces, and just bold it a little bit wider of that off stump. So the intelligence is there, which is only going to get better the more you play. Tough as what does it feel like when you're a spinner and you're the only spinner bowling on a fourth or fifth day test pitch, like how did you deal with that? Well I mean you just deal with it don't you, I mean for a start off I'd rather be bowling on the fourth day than the first day, because at least you've got something to play with and the sort of pitch is going to start turning a little bit, so I mean there is obviously that bit of pressure that the eyes are on you and everything, but you know I always used to just say well come on Seamers, you know I'm not the only one, I'm not going to get all ten, you know we're here as a unit, but there is that pressure, like when they got off the West Indies to that 50 run star, to then come in and make that impact, to keep making little breakthroughs and breaking partnerships, because it's your end of the game so to speak, but he looked a handle that beautifully as well, so I think, I think he's a real talent as well and as you say he's got all the attributes, but he also looks like he knows out a bowl a bit of spin as well. Listening to tough, I was talking about the spinners over in all the intelligence, that was a bit of a true me, that was the only thing that was true me and I thought that's what Finney was going to say as well, but it is actually nice to see an England spinner with some intelligence he thinks about the game isn't it? What's fascinating Finney, as somebody who has been in around the England set up more, more recently, is that environment in that high pressure test match environment, all of the analysis, all of the focus that comes on bowlers, as a spinner to come in, you have got such pressure and such a sense of everybody watching you, you know the cameras are looking in micro detail and everything you're doing, you knew that as a scene bowler, he knows that as a spin bowler, it's not as straightforward thing to do to come into a test side with that much pressure. It's not, but I think that that speaks volumes for the environment that McCulloch and Stokes have created, they seem to look after their own, he alluded to that in his interview that we listened to a few minutes ago that everyone gets around him as the youngest player in the team, and that's a huge thing to feel accepted into addressing a room of people that just a few years ago he'd have been watching on the TV thinking wow isn't this amazing, all of a sudden he's thrust into that environment and looks very much at home and I think that that does speak volumes for the way that Ben Stokes manages his bowlers, the confidence that he gives them, he's certainly a captain that I'd have loved to play under, and I think there's a lot of bowlers who probably think the same. Well he's had pretty meteoric rise, surprise choice I think it's fair to say when he was called up for England's winter tour of India, he'd only played at that point six first class, matches, the fascinating story, Ben Stokes spotting Bashir in that social media video when he bowled to Alistair Cook during his first class debut last June Stokes then shared that video in a WhatsApp group with head coach Brendan McCollum and the England managing director Rob Key and the rest as they say is history, well somebody who's played a key role in Bashir's early development as the Somerset coach Jason Kerr who is with us as well this evening, good evening to you, I mean this must be thrilling Jason seeing somebody stepping up to the international stage and performing quite like that. Yeah it's absolutely fascinating, we're incredibly proud at Somerset, he's a great lad, you talked about him as a character in depth and meteoric rise is certainly highest but taking it any stride. What is it about him because you particularly with spin bowlers they talk about yeah Graham Swan he really matured into becoming such a successful spinner in his late 20s into his 30s and it does require a slightly different psychology so as the man what makes him able to cope with the demands of occasionally bowling the old bad ball and that sort of thing is a spinner. I think if you look at his journey he's experienced some adversity quite early so he was obviously on a series of academy was in their pathway and then to have that sense of rejection as a young player and then probably felt like his opportunity within the game had gone and so I think as you know we've talked about him as a character the way that he seems to approach his cricket it's just how fun to enjoy it, he's brave he's courageous in the way he goes about it and remains incredibly humble and just takes each day as he comes and so you talked heard you talking about the pressure I think right now he's just loving the journey loving the experience I think almost the further he goes along the journey is when the pressure will come. You spoke about bravery how important is that when you look at a young player particularly a young spin bowler? Well I think it's a huge thing for me selling at Somerset is the character of individuals that you have I think talents one thing but it's what you're going to do with it how you're going to approach the game and how you're going to deal with adversity and since Bashes has been with us he's been an incredible character being very level works incredibly hard it is inquisitive certainly wants to get better on a daily basis so you know we certainly hope he continues on this journey. And what about that dynamic a lot has been spoken about with Jack Leach being part of the Somerset side almost as a senior spin bowler and sure Beshire having leapfrogged him to get into the England test side as a coach that is a complicated dynamic. Yeah it's an interesting challenge one that we've faced before we obviously had Don Bess at Somerset as well and obviously going to the England team similar and it's really if it's a fascinating one and obviously we had the game where we selected Leachie and Bashin playing not playing and then was selected to play for England so I mean testament to both of them they've managed themselves brilliantly both on and off the field they're good friends they work the world together but as it stands unfortunately one of them can play. What about his ceiling how good do you think he could be? Oh it's huge you know that's what's really exciting and there's almost a pleasant naivety about him at the minute but he's tough as alluded to he's got massive hands he's got some unbelievable attributes naturally in the height that he's got but he's got an inquisitiveness and a willingness to learn and that's the thing that I think is going to take him a long way he's obviously had some great experiences in the winter and this summer's a huge learning curve for him as well but very few balls in England so to do what he's done in this test match is incredible. He also enjoys the game he enjoys spin bowling enjoys the challenge and that's sort of like part and parcel isn't it for a spinner doesn't mind if you boldy I mean the wicker adjacent holder you know he got hit a couple of times and then step kept sort of plugging away just outside of some he looks like he enjoys the challenge mate yeah he absolutely loves it and again I think what's that bravery he knows that as a spinner there's going to be times where people are going to come at him particularly evening and set about as the long spinner if you can take him out the attack it does mean that it seems have to do more of the work so he's going to be targeted but currently that doesn't seem to phase him he'll stay brave stay adventurous and try and take it with you yeah Paul I know you've been doing some coaching this evening and you know suddenly these sort of young kids youngsters watching the game I've got a new hero all of a sudden that they have yeah I mean I've been slough cricket club tonight 50-60 young cricket is an awful lot of young South Asian cricketers and one of the the guys there from Berkshire cricket was talking about Jason and you know the fact that you know show pashir has made that journey through their system he played the under 18 Jason obviously picked him up to go and play some games for summer set second team and saw that but you know that the young players that are coming through really have got a role model they've got somebody they can see that you know the adversity that Jason's talked about you know being knocked back as a youngster but keep persevering keep working hard at your game and you know everybody spoke very highly of him as a young man tonight they spoke highly about his dad his family network and what a humble you know person he is and how you know the dad you know and the family very appreciative of the support and help that some have given him to give him a chance of you know getting to this level I guess if you've got that level of support as a family level of level-headedness then that gives you a great chance as a young man going into international cricket Jason does that ring crew in terms of that support network around him absolutely we recognize the role suddenly that the family have played you know we've given him time he's gone back to work at his local cricket club do some work one of his local coaches I think that connection is really important and it is a great story certainly of a role model and he's never a role model on the global stage so you know a long way that continued Finney you entered test cricket that environment at similar sort of age around about 20 and it it is a challenge of course for a young athlete to do that what do you need around you to make that work to succeed in that position well I think that the the contact with your most trusted coach is very important and something that I tried to maintain throughout my international career was always a sounding point to give you honest feedback and and I think that that's really important that when you go to England and you have social media and you know people on Twitter or X are building you up to be a million dollars you have to have those people to keep you in check and to keep you grounded and that's really really important and on the flip side when you've had a couple of bad games to have those people around you to build you back up to to make you recognize and check in with the things that make you good so yeah I'd say that the most fundamental thing for a young player is having those trusted people close to you so whether you're having a good time or a bad time they can always bring you back into the middle somewhere which is a good place to be I mean Finney I think you're absolutely right and I'm I don't think we should be surprised either the fact that you know this young man has come through you know in a very short space of time the Somerset set up as well because you know you look back over the last few years Somerset through Jason and Andy Haru produced an awful lot of very very good players you know just Butler talking to him about his journey through the Somerset Academy he speaks very highly of Jason and the work that they've done you know you look at he's already mentioned Don best Jack leech you look at the overtones you know there were so many talented young players that have come through the Somerset set up we shouldn't be at all surprised that not only is he taken to test cricket the way that he has but he's got the right you know he's got the right ambition he's got the right passion for the game but he's also got that calmness that we've all talked about and we've all seen so we shouldn't be surprised because you know Somerset has a club have done a fantastic job with an awful lot of young players over the last well I would say eight nine ten years probably and sometimes you forget that you know and I mean this respectfully they might not have been a team that won the county championship 50 times they might not be a you know a major test match ground but they certainly produce fantastic players and that's why they've been challenging in all competitions for a long period of time Jason what you put that down to oh I appreciate that far bit I think part of our philosophy is exactly that I think you know why I ran the academy years ago and Josh was there it was about producing a place for England I think we had probably a small club mentality where it was about people playing for Somerset and we have to look beyond that I think so the idea is you have players that play for England and a by-product is Somerset produce players and they become a good team all the time so but it's also investing time in people I think one thing myself and Andy really try and do is identify our characters try and shape the biggest influence you can have is on who they are as people and the cricket in some respects is a little bit secondary and trying to so in Bach's case you know it's really important he will stay grounded he's an incredibly humble guy and he concentrates on the cricket that's the bit he can control the media side of it the attention the expectation everything else that goes with being an international cricket he can't control that so it's just trying to keep him in a space and we pride ourselves on trying to do that and try and produce and help grow people and lead into good cricketers tough as for spin bowlers you're going to have days where it goes beautifully well on a lovely turning pitch you're going to have days where it's absolutely horrible and you get hit all over the place and you've got to be quite mentally resilient particularly as a young baller yeah well you have and those days will definitely come around for showib you know I mean you know he boll beautifully well it's not the greatest West Indian side I've ever seen with the bat in their hand but I think what he did was read the conditions and just played his part you know what I mean and that's what you're going to do but that's but then you know you were saying about the bad days what you got to try and do about the bad days is make them not too bad you know what I mean so when things are flat and you lose the toss at the gabber and you're throwing the ball with an hour before lunch you got to think yourself well cricketer are you how am I going to keep these guys in check and so he'll learn that and as you say he's so young 20 years old you know what I mean that comes with experience and know how and talking to coaches and talking to the guys in the dressing room and what have you so that's going to be his next sort of path of his journey he's how to make him a more sort of like a rounded spin bowler but that only comes with time but as you say he's got off to a fantastic star and from a technical point of view keep speaking about these enormous hands and Monty Panasau is another bowler that had the big hat why does it make such a difference talk us through it well you can just wrap them around the ball you know what I mean it's just it feels like it's like a little piece in your hand you know what I mean and you can sort of like really get those fingers and jam it into your you sort of webbing and you know get the revolutions on it and really give it a rip you know what I mean if you've got little hands you're always fighting against the ball if you know what I mean but this thing is in your claws and you can just really sort of like get the wrist on it get the fingers on it and flip it out he looks like he spins it nicely looks like he's you know he's quite a big spin on the ball also he looks like he's got that overspin which is nice and he can look also undercut it a little bit as well so he's got lots of little subtle variations and as you say he's so young you just you develop spin bowling a lot of spin bowling is in the mind really you have the the attributes and everything and you're working on these little things in the next and what have you but it's about working out sort of players working out pitches working out situations and things like that and that only happens with time and that and that's the thing that I think is so impressive about showy because the fact that and I don't know him but just watching him bold tough as he just looks as though he's very calm very unflappable and his ability to work players I was chatting to a couple of our lads that played against him last year in a second team game at Taunton Vale and they said the one thing that he seemed to be able to work out when people were looking to come down the picture he worked out very quickly he dragged his legs down a fraction shorter and for a young man to have that and you talk about spinners you know we often talk in the game about spinners don't really develop till their late 20s they need experience they need all that information in their files in their head that they've been through he just looks like someone that it almost looks like he's already played 20 test matches that's the biggest compliment I can pay him he just looks so calm so unflappable he's thoroughly enjoying it but he looks as though he's one step ahead of the batsman all the time and as a spinner that has to be your greatest attribute yeah absolutely as you speak especially when people are coming for you and you're under pressure you've got to be able to keep your composure but also I think I think you might be born with it you know it's a spin bowler it's that little sixth sense it's that little thing that's in your head as you were saying is he coming is he not coming and you've got to look through all these tells and it's just that feeling of what the guy is trying to do at the other end and that only comes as you say with a little bit of experience but he seems to have it pretty pretty early on in his career both look really well sad about right Jason yeah absolutely I think it's that it's almost that I talk about naivety with him is that it's the playfulness so if he goes for four he's not he's always thinking about how he's getting a batter out so he's there's never a defensive mindset thinking whereas I think under a lot of captains historically young spinball is he ever a couple of boundaries he get taken off and I think the brilliant thing with which stalks is encouraging to take wickets the whole time they don't care boundaries they go for it's all about taking wickets and I think that comes like second nature to him so he's constantly playing he'll ball a little bit quicker take a little bit of pace off and I think the bit he's going to have to learn is that when there is nothing in the surface and actually can he control the game is he going to be in the game from a numbers all this point of view and that's the bit that he's learning in test cricket to be fair to him next 18 months Finney there's some serious challenges biggest challenges really in test cricket India next summer then Australia in the ashes in the winter it's going to be a very very different experience different surfaces all of these things but are we seeing enough in terms of the character of shrub this year to be the guy that that can be tossed a ball when England want to turn to a spin spin option yeah well it's that unflappable ness if i can just make up a word on the radio that you're looking for because you know when the first morning of a test match and Travis head comes down trying to smash you and he manages to do it it's coming back from that that that's the biggest challenge and everything that's been thrown at him so far when that happened to him in India he came back he took five wickets and that's a really impressive attribute to have and then on top of those mental attributes when you're looking and now we're looking a long way ahead 18 months in anyone's career is a long way ahead but especially when you're 20 and you've only played under 10 first-class games but you know his physical attributes and that height is something that when you're looking at bowling spin in Australia if someone's running down towards you that extra bounce could just hit the splice of the bat instead of the middle of the bat so i think it's those two things in tandem which is why he's leapfrogged everyone to become England's frontline spinner now to make sure that in 18 months time which i think this England team will be truly judged about about how they've played their cricket over the last few years that they've got enough test matches into shy bershear for him to feel comfortable Jason before we let you go it's a matter of as much anything keeping everybody else's feet on the ground in terms of of the talent as well as it is absolutely i think you know like Finney alluded to that we're starting to look 18 months ahead already there's a huge amount of time to go a lot of cricket to be played and a lot of learning to take place and during that time bashi's gonna have some probably difficult games and the narrative will change around is he going to be really etc so i'm excited for that journey i think you know my role and the guys around him is to keep his feet on the ground keeping working hard and ensure that he's fully prepared for what's going to be hopefully a longevity in international cricket indeed thank you very much Jason Kerr coach uh Somerset coach of Shoah Bashir who starred for England yesterday in that victory uh Omaha West Indies at Shrimp Ridge my thanks to Paul Farberay Stephen Finn Phil Tuffnell Jason Kerr for joining me for this special GMS podcast focusing on the fledgling career of Shoah Bashir he'll next be in action on Friday when you can listen to ball by ball commentary of a third test between England and West Indies from Edgeford will be live on five sports extra and BBC sounds from 10 25 am highlights on television on BBC 2 from five past 11 until next time goodbye welcome to a new podcast feed from five live sport and BBC sounds all about Olympics as we gear 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