- Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair, done well. Kitchen sink install, done well. Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years. So we know the difference between done and done well. Hire high quality certified pros at angie.com. - They say opposites attract. That's why the sleep number smart bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft. Sleep number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm. Sleep number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Find the bed that's for both of you, only at a sleep number store. Sleep better together. JD PowerRank's sleep number one in customer satisfaction with mattress is purchased in store. And now sleep number smart bed starting at $999. Price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. For JDPower2023 award information, visit jdpower.com/awards only at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com. - Panic at 1600. Can President Biden survive the pressure to drop out of the race? A former Democratic president of the candidate is here to make the case that now is the time for a new nominee. But is it too late or a hasty decision and wrong? We'll see about that. Plus, forget the pundits. What do the people think? My riveting conversation with voters in Battleground, Michigan, who may very well decide this race and their answers may surprise you. (upbeat music) Sudden uncontrollable fear, that is the textbook definition of panic. And it's exactly what we're seeing across the Democratic party tonight after President Biden's halting debate. But is it warranted or not? Well, by now you have probably seen the moments that triggered a lot of this anxiety, haven't you? Either you were one of the more than 50 million Americans who saw it live or the tens of millions of others who watched clips on social media clips like this one. - What I've been able to do with the COVID, I should be dealing with everything we have to do with more if we finally beat Medicare. - The second the debate was over, the seeds of doubt were planted. - I think there's a lot of people who are going to want to see him consider taking a different course now. We're still far from our convention and there is time for this party to figure out a different way forward if he will allow us to do that. 24 hours later, the New York Times editorial board in black and white with this headline tonight, "To serve his country, President Biden should leave the race." Quote, "Given that very danger the stakes for the country "and the uneven abilities of Mr. Biden, the United States, "needs a stronger opponent "to the presumptive Republican nominee." Unquote. Now that op-ed was published after the president tried to compete with the very energetic speech in North Carolina rally, now be it off of a teleprompter mid-day in front of a very generously cheering crowd. - I know I'm not a young man, state the obvious. I don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak as smooth as I used to. I don't debate as well as I used to. But I know what I do know. I know how to tell the truth, and I know how to do this job. I know how to get things done. He wanted to say that he intends to win this election. Translation, he's not going anywhere. Well, Donald Trump actually seems to agree. - Many people are saying that after last night's performance at Joe Biden is leaving the race. But the fact is, I don't really believe that because he does better in polls than any of the Democrats are talking about. - Now, some of the top Democrats in the country are just trying to woosaw everyone to calm everyone down. They chalk it up to a bad night. I'm talking about people like President Barack Obama, former President Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Congressman James Clyburn, Vice President Harris too, who argues that Biden made it had a bad debate. But she says Trump is about president. - For all of the punditry last night, for all of that, our president made clear. There is a contrast between someone who lies and someone who leads. - Joining us now, former Democratic congressman and presidential candidate, Tim Ryan. So good to see you this evening. Thank you for joining. It has been a pretty wild 24 hours. Everyone was anticipating this debate. Back in 2022, I remember you called for what was generational change. At that point in time, you suggested that President Biden should not run for reelection. Now he didn't announce until I think April of 2023 that he would, there was that what he won't he moment. For you, is this feeling like an, I told you so kind of moment. - Well, there's too much stake really to get into the personal stuff. I just, I always felt like in 2020, he was the bridge candidate. I was one of the first people who ran in 2020 to endorse him because I thought, you know what, that's a good idea. Let's beat Donald Trump. Let's have a bridge. But then let's get to the next generation. And it's looking like that may not happen. - When you were watching the performance last night, and of course the fallout since then, there has been people talking about the substance or lack thereof from some of the responses. There's about the personalities that were at play. It's about the actual performance as well. It really has run the gamut, but not overwhelmingly favorable at all. I do wonder from your perspective, seeing things like the New York Times editorial board saying, I'm gonna read a quote for you, Democrat who have deferred to Mr. Biden must now find the courage to speak plain truths to the party's leader. They're saying essentially that he should not be in this race any longer. Do you agree with that? - I do, I do. It, which is sad because I remember Joe Biden kicking Paul Ryan's rear end on the debate stage. And I remember being at rallies with him and feeling good, but seasons change. And we're in a position now where even Joe Biden has said, the most important thing is to beat Donald Trump. So we have to make the decision as a party to beat Donald Trump. And what was most, I think threatening last night is the way Trump was able to start reshaping COVID, reshaping the economy, reshaping abortion rights. And look, there's so much at stake for women in this election, we have to have a candidate that can articulate the pro-choice position and how it's the largest governmental overreach in this country. These women in America are free. They don't want the government in their bodies. If we can't make that basic democratic argument, if we can't push back against the lies and then put a big vision forward for the country, we're in a really bad spot. And I think the leaders in the Democratic Party have to come together and we've got to move towards a plan B. And it's not like, I don't think there's a problem with that. Like, we have so much talent. We have Gretchen Whitmer and Governor Shapiro and Senator Warnock and Kelly and Sherrod Brown in Ohio. We've got so much talent. What is wrong with going to a convention and showing the American people that we have a talented group of people, especially our governors that are doing a phenomenal job. Our senators have passed bills to re-industrialize the Country Infrastructure Chips Act, inflation reduction, dealing with climate. Let's go show the world what we got. - Well, just two points. One, I know that you did not include Vice President Harris as part of that list of people. Why not? - I think she'd be, I've rarely seen a political figure evolve as much as her. I thought her interviews last night, absolutely incredible. Like, I thought she did a phenomenal job. I think she has grown so much in the job. And I don't say that in a condescending way. Like, these jobs are tough. She has grown into this job. I think she meets the sweet spot around choice, around what the younger generation wants. And she would have four months to go out and campaign. I mean, why wouldn't we wanna give her a chance to do that and put a VP on and like, let's go? So I think that would be very exciting. - The second point though, the question, why not? And it can feel rhetorical when people ask that the way you have. But then again, some people have a response and the why not, they will look at the calendar and they'll say, hold on, Democrats have had four years to do something. We're talking weeks from the RNC convention. We're talking a few more weeks from that to the DNC convention. And then what, 129 days to the presidential general election? Is it too late to do anything different now? - No, I mean, it's not like 1920 where you have to get on a train and go around the country. We have a big convention, whoever emerges from that, we'll be a household neighbor on the world within 24 hours and with social media today. And I think the excitement that it would generate. And it's not a stepping down for Joe Biden. It's a stepping up to meet the responsibilities that we have. You know, I've thought a lot about in the last couple of weeks, we traveled to Germany, the Berlin Wall. We saw these things. I thought about President Kennedy in the Cuban Missile Crisis. And I think this is what the average person in Ohio thinks about, whether it's consciously or subconsciously, he had the joint chiefs of staff pushing him, humiliating him, calling him names because he was afraid to go to World War III. And he had the force to stand up to them. And I think when the American people watch a debate like that, they want someone who is able to not just present during a debate or give a fiery speech, but in those tough moments, historical moments, are you able to stand up and understand what's going on, understand the context, understand the details and be able to say no and stand up to forces that are coming your way, whether it's interest groups or protesters or Vladimir Putin or whatever it may be. And unfortunately, as sad as it is, they didn't see that last night. And that's a problem because Trump, as many times as he's lied, he came off stronger. So you have to wonder, in a debate format, the things you've just described, to me speak about governance. I don't know you can capture the breadth of what you've just described and what it would take to govern in a debate performance for either candidate, for any candidate to be able to capture all those things. That's probably one of the main conundrum to thinking about, but before I let you go, I know we don't have much time. Let's say Biden stays in because he doesn't seem to say or suggest in any way that he is stepping down. He says, fight in them, he says. And that, of course, means that Vice President Harris, would be debating whoever would be the inevitable choice of Donald Trump as their running mate. There was a conference that we had on this very show where a former communications director to Vice President Harris said that she felt the most formidable opponent for a VP debate, let alone, you know, opposition, would be Senator J.D. Vance for Vice President Harris. Do you agree with that? - He's a talented guy. I mean, I ran against him, I debated him. I thought I beat him in the debates. But he knows, I think, how to present, and I think put lipstick on the Trumpism pig and make it seem like there's this intellectual coherence behind that. He's very talented at doing that. And yeah, I think, but I think she would do very, very well against him because at the end of the day, he is like the top bootlicker for Donald Trump. Like, he is the one who I think Trump would feel the most comfortable with because he would be very subservient to him. So I think that would make Trump feel very comfortable. But he does have a way of articulating this right-wing extreme agenda and kind of make it sometimes seem tolerable. And I think that that would make it, I think, challenging for her, but I think she would do fantastic. - Well, we've got a lot of days between now and the general election, not as many as I'm sure they would like. Your petition seems very clear. Congressman, thank you for joining. - Thank you. - I wanna bring in the author of the fight of his life inside Joe Biden's White House, Chris Whipple. Chris, thank you for joining this evening. - Good to be with you. - Quite a 20-hour period, I have to say. And before Biden decided to run, you said that Dr. Joe Biden would have been the only person who could have talked him out of running. Is that 'til the case today? - Yeah, I believe it is. And look, I think obviously Joe Biden had a terrible night. But unless there's something wrong with him that we're not aware of, he's going to be the nominee. And by the way, nothing will make him more determined to keep running than a New York Times editorial suggesting that he get out. There's no love lost between Joe Biden and the New York Times. But the notion that the cavalry will somehow come riding in magically and persuade Joe Biden to step aside in favor of some other candidate is just a fantasy. I mean, it really would require a kind of family intervention by Jill Biden, Hunter, his sister, Val, God knows who else Ted Kaufman perhaps, Mike Donilon to persuade him to step aside. And there's no indication that they want to do that. Even if that succeeded, then you have the problem of this disparate democratic party, somehow magically coalescing around some candidate and who knows who that would be. And of course, the notion of the whole idea of an open convention that way just lies disaster. I mean, we've been down that road before. So look, there is no plan B, no viable plan B. I think it's going to be Joe Biden. - Well, you know what, there's a lot of ifs to get to even a potential consideration for somebody else. Stick around, I want to come right back to you, but I want to expand our conversation with CNN's legal commentator, Karen Finney, CNN opinion contributor, Sofia Nelson, and Republican strategist Malik Abdul. Thank you all. And you heard a little bit about what he was saying. You know, first of all, there's been a lot of criticism of the president's performance. But there's also a lot of criticism about the former president's performance in terms of the amount of lies he was saying and beyond. And really, I wonder for many voters, it was form or substance, not over or under. Karen, I want to get this point though, the New York Times editorial board. They are not mensing words. Are they being rash or rational? - You know, if I were Joe Biden, I would actually take a page out of the Donald Trump playbook and go on offense against the New York Times on this one and say, I am not going to let the New York Times tell me what to do or how to run this country, right? Like, I actually would do that because part of what they need to do right now is get back on offense. I mean, you know, I've said this earlier today, I will stipulate to the facts of the case. It was a terrible night. No question. Now the question is between now and election, which is really September, by the way, 'cause it went early, the voting starts. How do you make sure that you regain people's confidence? And look, two things can be true. Yes, the president had a bad night last night. No question. At the same time, we also saw Donald Trump stand up there for 90 minutes with a torrent of lies doubling down on policies that our own reporting has said would increase costs for the middle class. So there's plenty there, you know, in terms of, you know, should he get out? And what does that mean? Like, I agree with Chris. Like, I think it's unrealistic. I don't think it's going to happen. I think the chances have been coalescing behind one person. But also, I think Joe Biden, look, he's done the job. And I think the point that you made is does one 90 minute debate tell us everything we need to know. Well, let me ask you about this, Malik, because first of all, this is, it's not the oddest thing that all issues aside. An incumbent president doesn't often perform well the first time around there, while they're being the president at some point in time. Having said that though, both of these men want eight years. They don't want to be one term presidents. When it comes to Trump, who is really claiming a kind of victory, there are many who are criticizing the statements that he's made, the lies that were said. And I'm wondering from your perspective for voters on the Republican side in particular, did they get enough to hang their hat on to say, aha, Trump can be my guy? I think they did in this case, because there is a difference in the type of debate performances that both of them initially gave. So Joe Biden, the problem that Joe Biden has is that his debate performance fed into narratives about Joe Biden. In Donald Trump's case, are you surprised that Donald Trump was lying? Probably people would say no. But Donald Trump, because the expectations that Democrats and many people had of Joe, have Donald Trump, that he wouldn't do as well, he, they actually lowered expectations for Donald Trump. And I think that Donald Trump actually outperformed. He focused on policy. Yes, Donald Trump said things that he exaggerated because he does it all the time. But if you are a Republican and you were wondering, can Donald Trump be disciplined? Can Donald Trump for 90 minutes in a debate with Joe Biden be disciplined, not feel compelled to just cut Joe Biden off? Because that's what we've seen with Donald Trump. So Donald Trump actually shown, he showed at least Republican voters, and I'm hearing this all over the place, something different, and it was the discipline that he demonstrated on last night. Wow, so I got to tell you, and I think that a lot of what you say is accurate, I'm not counting that, but what a low bar. I mean, I mean, I'm from, I'm not that old, but I'm from a generation when we didn't get anything past the third place ribbon. Like if you came in fourth, you just lost. Your parents weren't like, oh, that was great. You really tried, it was one, two, three. This sounds like 1046 is the standard here. Is that where Republican voters want? I can't speak to what Republican voters want, but I thought that the fact of the matter is, Donald Trump didn't have a good debate either. But the bar is so low, as you said, that we aren't going to focus on that, because what you saw the way that CNN split the screen, and of course we love CNN, was the focus on President Biden, like he just looked like he was lost, like he didn't look into the camera. You know, like we're looking into the camera now to talk to the audience, even when you're off camera, you're looking into the camera. And so the contrast was stark in just the way it appeared. So you didn't pay attention to what Trump said, because you couldn't take your eyes off a Biden and what Biden was doing. And that's what I heard. So I'm not sure what Republican voters want, but you know my take on this debate's a little bit different. So I'll let you ask the question, I won't just cut you in. - Oh, let me see, now that I've been prompted by Sophie, and I said, there's an amazing op-ed that was written in the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Who was it written by? Oh, it was you! It was talking about Kamala Harris, as the obvious device president, but really that the focus is now on her. - Yeah. - I think that she was the winner last night, and you've heard Congressman Ryan, and others talk about it. And obviously, anybody who's as old as we are Karen, I'm gonna add a few. - You know what I do with you right now? - We've been around a long time, right? And what I mean by that is, the vice president is traditionally the hatchet person, right? They're the person you send out to do the job, to deal with the hard things in the campaign. Vice president Harris stepped all the way up last night, and she did it. - Let me go back to you, Chris, 'cause you're in the wings for us as well. I mean, what do you make of that? Obviously, normally a vice presidential candidate is not going to control the voters' momentum. But it's increasingly important, as we've seen. We still don't know who the running mate will be for Donald Trump. We know it won't be Mike Pence. When you look at this contrast between the potential VP pick and who vice president Kamala Harris has shown herself to be, including last night, and a lot of her interviews, what do you think is going to be the focus? - Well, I think she's found her voice, I think. And particularly last night, she was terrific, doing cleanup for Joe Biden. And I think she's been really effective, especially on women's reproductive rights, and she'll be deployed for that. But the vice president at the end of the day, really doesn't make much difference in presidential elections. Just one point on something Safiya said, this was a bizarre debate. And I think Bob Woodward put his finger on something important. And it's the question, what happened? The state of the union, Joe Biden, was very effective on his feet. So was the Joe Biden, who was campaigning yesterday in North Carolina. Somebody else was on the stage last night. And I think we need to find out why. We need to do more reporting about this, because it was really a jaw-droppingly bad performance. And there's got to be some explanation for it. - Well, I won't speculate as to what I mean, the North Carolina was today, but what are you suggesting that there, that between the difference between these different dates? - Obviously, these are months apart to a union. There's an audience in one, there's a crowd and a campaign in the other. - Well, it can be, any number of things. I mean, in 1984, Ronald Reagan had a terrible first debate, and Nancy Reagan was convinced that he was just over-briefed, and she tried to fire the guy, Dick Darmon, who was in charge of the briefing. Maybe that happened here, but I think when you look at that again, that stunning performance by Biden or lack of performance, I think there's something bigger there, and I think we need to do more reporting and find out what it is. - Well, assuming there is something, I'm sure that the diligent reporting will cover it. It has not to this date, but maybe it's like President Obama said, who articulates, "Sometimes you just have a bad date." Not everyone can come to life at night, like law codes. Thank you so much, everyone, I appreciate it. Donald Trump tried to take advantage of Biden's stumbles last night, by holding a rally in a state he thinks he can flip, but he repeated several falsehoods while he was there. Former Virginia governor Bob McDonald was at that rally in support of Trump, and he joins me next. (dramatic music) - Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie, and one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home, because with every fix, update, and renovation, it becomes a little more your own, so you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. From plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades, so leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Hire high quality certified pros at angie.com. - They say opposites attract. That's why the sleep number smart bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft, sleep number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm, sleep number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. 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For JD Power 2023 award information, visit jdpower.com/awards, only at a sleep number store, or sleep number.com. - Well, today Donald Trump hoping to use his debate momentum in states like Virginia holding a rally in Chesapeake and taking more swipes at President Biden's performance. - Despite the fact that Crooked Joe Biden spent the entire week at Camp David resting, working, studying, he studied very hard, he studied so hard that he didn't know what the hell he was doing. We're even leading in the state. - Or as you would say, the Commonwealth of Virginia. (audience cheering) - Well, the latest polls actually do not show Trump leading, but they do show a very tight race with both candidates tied at 48%. Back in 2020, remember that President Biden won the Commonwealth by seven percentage points, helping propel him to a victory. Now Trump may be looking to expand the electoral map, but his debate performance included frankly, in avalanche of lies, more than 30, according to CNN's fact checker. Many, well, they were pretty big fish. - In addition to the speech I made, in front of, I believe, the largest crowd I've ever spoken to, and I will tell you, nobody ever talks about that. They talk about a relatively small number of people that went to the Capitol, and in many cases, were ushered in by the police. Well, I heard him say before, insulin. I'm the one that got the insulin down for the seniors. He can take the life of the baby in the ninth month, and even after birth, because some states, Democrat run, take it after birth. He's willing to, as we say, rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month and kill the baby. - With me now, Republican and Trump supporter, who knows Virginia quite well. Former Virginia Governor Bob McDonald, who was at Trump's rally. Governor, thank you so much for joining me this evening. How are you? - Of course you are fine. Thank you. Long day in the small spring heat with the president. - Well, that's quite the combination. Trump has actually been taking a bit of a victory lap at his rally today, and he repeated some of the statements that we've just played, and frankly, about January 6th, and also abortion. Do you think that those messages are going to resonate with a general electorate one, and is it the right message to be sending now? - Well, first, let me just say about the debate. I want to commend CNN. The questions that were given by the moderators were short. They were clear, they were pithy. They gave all the time for the two candidates to answer the questions, I'm interrupted. And if they didn't answer them, they held them accountable and ask it again. And I thought it was as good a presidential debate by the moderators as I've seen. So anyway, Kudos, well done on that. - I think on the question, I think the president, at least from the message that he delivered today at this rally here down the road for me in Chesapeake, Virginia, was double-downing on some of the key points that he made last night. He sees this economy, sees this election of really about three things. One is the economy, it's inflation. It's gas prices, it's the overall cost of living. It's the deficit that's been run under this president and the debt. And then solutions on Medicare and Social Security, which is gonna be bankrupt in 10 years. So he's got real practical things he's raising there. And the other thing, of course, is immigration. The message today with every state is now a border state. And I think the numbers from the border patrol and others are pretty clear about what's happened the last three years with the very border security. And it's a concern for people all over the country. And then the third thing, of course, is security. He's pretty clear today. And I've heard this from a lot of experts, including some of the military, about what's going on in the Ukraine and with Hamas attack in Israel, the saber rattling of China, Iran, being maybe a year away from nuclear armaments, that this is an increasingly dangerous world. And I think that's why, Lori, you saw some of the gaps and some of those long stairs and rambling answers that President Biden gave a couple of times, we're of great concern. The leader of the free world's got to be clear and on ball all the time. - Yes, the leader of the free world, as we call it, needs to be clear, but there also is a requirement there ought to be of honesty. And I do wonder what you make of the fact that there were a number of times, even save for the points that you would like a candidate to make on message in the way that you have. There is ample ammunition to suggest that he was not not only truthful or mistaken in what he was saying, but there were a number of statements that were outright lies. And doubling down, as you point it, is that going to be enough to convince voters who might be teetering on the fence or wondering how they want their leader to be received and present themselves? Doesn't the lying concern you? - Of course. I want a candidate in both parties that'll tell the truth. - So what do you do about that? - And I thought there was a lot of hype for the debate and a lot of looseness with the facts. Laura, I mean, President Biden has said that he inherited a 9% inflation rate. That's not true with 1.9%. President Trump has said that when you add in all the other factors that the inflation rate under Biden has been 30 or 40%, that's not true. And so yeah, I don't like it at all. Be straight, be honest. People do miss the facts 'cause there's a lot of details on these policy issues. But I think that both candidates last night at times were so full of hyperbole and I'm the best, you're the worst, you're a criminal, I'm better. I mean, I don't think that's the fitting of a president or a nominee for president. And you ought to be leveling with American people. Tell them what you're gonna do to make their lives better and create better opportunity for all deservedly American dream. I think the more positive close in this race is gonna carry today in these close swing states. - You mean, you didn't wanna hear about their golf handicap that wasn't an interest to you? Governor, I'm obviously being facetious in that moment. (laughing) That was a moment as well. - I think that's a moment, yeah. - Well, let me ask you though, because the issues are important, but so is the democracy more broadly. And we believe in the peaceful transition of power. He has been asked, the former president, a number of times in different iterations. Would he stand by and accept the results of whatever comes in November? He has been caveating it, making it contingent. Does that give you pause, given frankly, the last time they debated, democracy and peril was not a huge headline 'cause January 6th had not happened. Does it give you pause that he is not just simply saying, yes, and I believe in a fair and free elections that we have? - Yeah, the only thing worse than your particular candidate losing is that there are things that happen during an election that so undermine the people's faith in a fair and free and honest election that they lose faith in American institutions. I think we've had a little bit of that with both political parties and their rhetoric the last couple of years. I've never bought that there was any rigged election. There was no dishonest election last time. There were 60 lawsuits, every state, including half of them being Republican states certified the election. So I don't buy that. There hadn't been any evidence presented that carried the day. I wish he'd just said unequivocally, yes, I will accept the elections. And of course, if there's evidence of widespread fraud by either political party, the other one has the right to contest that through the statutes that are available. So I guess that was the caveat, but it was in light of what's happened the last time I wish he'd had just been saying, yes, I'll accept it and I'm gonna win fair and square it. - Yes, as my father always says, if witches were horses, then beggars would ride. Former Governor Robert McDonald, thank you so much for joining. - Okay, Laura, thank you. - Ahead, how did undecided voters see last night's debate? I spoke with a group of them in Michigan in a very important county afterwards and their thoughts on the age question. Yup, it came up, we'll share it next. - From politics to pop culture and everything in between. CNN's Five Things brings you the five essential stories to get you up to speed and on with your day five times a day. - Hey there, from CNN, I'm Krista Bowe with The Five Things You Need to Know for Wednesday. - Follow CNN Five Things on Spotify enable push notifications so you don't miss an update. - Many Americans were already concerned about the ages of both 2024 presidential candidates going into last night's debate. I'd have a chance to watch the showdown of undecided voters in the key battleground state of Michigan in the purple Detroit suburb of Warren, here's what they told me after it was all over. I wanna hear from all of you by your show of hands, who think this debate went well for the former President Donald Trump? And who thought this debate went well for President Biden? By a show of hands, how many of your minds were changed in favor of one candidate or another in this debate? Okay, who's mind was changed with respect to those who raised their hand with respect to President Trump? In what way? - I think Mr. Biden, President Biden's cognitive level has definitely decreased. And I don't trust that in the next four years. He will be making the decisions that he needs to for our country. - Age was a big issue for all of you going in. And a big issue as you're talking about cognitive decline, but age more broadly. Did anyone else share her concern, Wendy's concern, about the cognitive ability of either candidate's day show of hands? Your hand went up pretty quickly. Tell me why. - Concerned with the elderly of his Biden's responses seemed like his lack of his knowledge of his data. He kept mixing his numbers even from 400 to 4 million. So I'm just really concerned with him not being able to handle on a spot, let alone representing our country and speaking to other debates of regarding, he's got to know his facts, he's got to know his data, he's got to know the numbers, he's got to be truthful in that. - You were also responding in a similar way. What was your reaction? - I actually was the opposite. I was more impressed with the way Biden handled things. I've seen situations where he doesn't necessarily know what to say. For many people, we have to remember, we also stutter when we're thinking about what to say. We also sometimes need to take time to process through the thoughts and arrange them correctly. So when you're put under this time constraint, and there's a lot of things you're older, I get that it's obviously not the best situation, but I think he did a great job presenting what he's done in office, his policies, the way that he's reshaped some things in America. I really just thought he did a great job with the factual side of things, the political side of things, whereas both of them are around the same age, so it's a fear for me for both of them really. But I did also notice a very big difference, was that seemed to be a focus for Biden, but nobody seemed to focus on the fact that Trump didn't really share facts, he didn't really share policies, he didn't really share much other than attacks. So you can't really judge his cognitive function other than knowing how to attack a person, which is like inherent. So there's a lot of different factors that go into age, but I think Biden did a better job than I expected him to. - Roman, you're actually nodding a lot about that. Do you agree with that notion? - I do agree because going into the debate, I was concerned about Biden's cognitive ability, because I was worried that there's age, what do you build, handle it? And at the beginning of the debate, I actually thought when he first came out and started talking, I was like, oh no, I could see his age. But as the debate went on, I actually thought his performance, I mean, his actions on stage, he actually improved in my opinion. So I actually felt more, a little bit more confident. - Does anyone disagree with either of what they've said, back there? - I have a loved one on a cognitive decline, and nobody can tell me that Biden is not in cognitive decline. I mean, it's pretty apparent. He did get better as it went on, I think, but still, I mean, two, three years from now, it's only gonna get worse. - Let me turn for a second to the issue of January 6th. The last time these two gentlemen debated, January 6th, 2021, had not occurred. The notion of democracy and peril was not a part of the debate. Now it has become front and center for a variety of reasons. One of the things that the former president spoke about, and he said, and I watched a reaction, and he said, I did nothing wrong, and there was kind of a visceral reaction that some of you had on that moment in time, but there was also an equal reaction that many of you had when the former president Trump suggested that it was only because he's a political opponent of President Biden, that he has even been prosecuted in a number of matters. By a show of hands, who thinks that the justice system or the prosecutions were weaponized because of political reasons? Raise your hand. Okay. - I think the timing is suspicious. You know, now that the polls are showing that Trump's leading, we're gonna arrest him and throw him in jail. This is not Russia. This is not North Korea. They do that stuff, not in America. Deb charges should have been brought prior to this election years ago, but they decided to do it right now. I don't appreciate that. I feel like the Department of Justice was used for political gain on Mr. Biden's part. Who agrees with that statement here? For those of you who disagree, why? Yes. - Good. - Well, in this case, we're talking about the 34 felonies being state charges. So that's not DOJ, but I am pretty confident that if he had made any attempt, whatsoever to plea bargain, even no contest, that he would not be facing 34 felonies. He'd be facing a single count where he would be either on probation or definitely no jail time. But he's antagonized the process the whole way and he should expect jail time now. - A special thanks to those voters in Warren, Michigan and McComb County for taking the time to speak with me. And of course, thank you to McComb Community College for hosting us as well. A hugely consequential Supreme Court ruling is coming down Monday. I'm talking about the question of Trump immunity and we'll discuss what's at stake as well as another scotish ruling that could impact Trump's federal elections aversion case. That's next. In just three days, the Supreme Court will make a ruling that found and could fundamentally reshape the office of the presidency. And it will have huge implications for 2024 race and Donald Trump's legal fate. Monday is when the court will rule and tell us finally on whether Trump will be immune from criminal prosecution. It'll be the final day of decisions for the Supreme Court this term. And just say that same court ruled the Justice Department overstepped in charging January six rioters with obstruction. And that could impact the prosecutions of dozens of people who stormed that Capitol. And Trump, he is seizing on the moment. - They have been treated so badly. So we're asking based on the decision, they should immediately be released immediately. The J-6 costume. - Now important to note, Trump himself is facing two obstruction charges based on the statute that's at the issue in this ruling. It's still unclear how it will affect him in that instance. But source of telling CNN, his legal team is already thinking about filing motions to get those charges dismissed. So I mean, now former federal prosecutor, Gene Rossi, and former January six investigative counsel, Marcus Childress. Glad to have you both here. Gene, let me go, that was you here. You represented an Oathkeeper William Isaacs. He actually was one of the January six defendants who was convicted of obstruction of an official proceeding. What happens now in a case like that? - Well, William is very lucky. He was one of the first Oathkeepers into the U.S. Capitol. His conduct does not fall within the exception that they carved out. When he went into the Capitol, he wasn't trying to get documents or obstruct the access to the documents. And he wasn't part of a conspiracy to submit false claims. So he will not be prosecuted. Good news for him is he got five years of probation. So even if you get rid of that 1512 C1 count or C2 count, he still probably would get probation. - What about Trump? He's got those two charges. His counsel is gonna try to get those dismissed. Jack Smith may or may not be amenable. What's gonna happen? - We know that more President Trump files appeals for anything. I don't think this is gonna be very strong. I mean, if there is an argument that someone's conduct false between 1512 C2, it's what former President Trump was doing with the fake electors or even certain documents that were submitted to the Capitol to try to stop the certification of the vote that day. So I actually think that his conduct false most squarely within 1512 C2 that an Oathkeeper per se. And so I think he's finding another uphill battle and trying to kick those charges out. - And the numbers you're referencing, the Supreme Court has the exception saying that it can be applied in a certain context. It's not totally over broad and overused in certain ways. And Jack Smith likely thought, "This is the area in which I can still maintain my case." - Absolutely. - Let's talk about immunity though, because Marcus, this sets the stage for this ruling that is going to finally happen on Monday. They obviously have already made their decision. They're not waiting to figure it out to the weekend. What are you looking for? Are you thinking they're gonna really preserve or have some attitude of blanket immunity for a president? - I do not expect that there will be absolute immunity for a president. I just don't see the Supreme Court doing that. Reading today's opinion, I'm curious. There was a lot of reading into congressional intent, what did Congress mean when 1512 C2, which you just talked about, was passed after Enron. I'm curious if they have that just as the kids, we said the same energy with immunity, right? We left the monarchy and when our country was established, it was so that we could hold everyone accountable. Nation of laws of everyone sold. Well, they consider our nation's founding, what we were escaping when we formed our country when holding the opinion on Monday. And if they do that, then you have to have some type of liability for presidents when they commit crimes. And so I'll be curious to see if they look at the historical context that they deal with the congressional intent here today, but I'm not that hopeful to be completely candid. - I mean, if you say that a president is above the law for whatever they are doing at any given point in time, and they have to wait, like you said, in the arguments at some point from the defense council, until there was some impeachment and removal or otherwise, or conviction, do you even bring charges, you do undermine the checks and balances system of this country more broadly. But let me ask you about the timing. I mean, this technically is the 11th hour of CNN, but a good 11th hour. But this is the 11th, I mean, there you go. This is the 11th hour, like for the Supreme Court, the last possible moment, the last possible day, why? - What's the logic? (laughing) - Okay, my cynical side says that they wanna delay, delay, delay, they wait till July 1st, issue this opinion. If it says you're done Monday, of course it will be. There's no trial this year, it's impossible. But what this opinion's gonna do is it's gonna be three buckets. There's personal conduct, campaign conduct, and official acts. They're gonna draw guardrails for each one, and there will not be any blanket immunity, but there will be a definition of campaign versus official acts. And the whole concept of that, you can order Navy Team Six to kill people, that's gonna be thrown out the window. - I mean, I don't think that the Supreme Court is gonna wanna enumerate a list of official acts to your larger point and try to dictate everything, but we'll see also happening on Monday though, see Bannon reports to prison a lot coming up on Monday. Jean and Marcus, thank you both so much. - Thank you. - And I thank you all for watching AC360 is next. - They say opposites attract. That's why the sleep number smart bed is the best bed for couples. 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