TNT Radio host Patrick Henningsen speaks with author and political activist Kim Heller, about the recent change in government in South Africa, seeing the ANC lose its majority and go into coalition with the white majority western-leaning centrist party, as the country continues to struggle socially and economically. Also, the incoming Democratic Alliance might be rethinking the country’s role in BRICS.
More from Kim: X/Twitter TheUncapturedTruth
TUNE-IN LIVE to TNT RADIO for the Patrick Henningsen Show every MON-FRI at 4PM-6PM (NEW YORK) | 9PM-11PM (LONDON) https://tntradio.live
Today's news talk TNT radio welcome back welcome back ladies and gentlemen to TNT today's news talk I'm Patrick Kennington we're in the second hour of the Patrick Kennington show live in direct here on the world's only 24 7 365 talk radio network TNT now we're gonna shift gears right now we're gonna go to the continent of Africa I want to welcome onto the stage a political commentator she has been on the show before we're gonna talk about a similar topic Kim Heller's joining us she's a political analyst she's also an author and Kim if you will there has been a changing of the guard a procession of power in South Africa from the previous Ramaphosa government and the parties have changed here let's set the scene a lot of people have mixed feelings about this change of power in South Africa a lot of concerns as well also about the new government's position regarding Israel and Palestine because as we know South Africa's played such a central role in this story having brought the case to the international courts of justice against Israel for genocide but go ahead go ahead Kim thank you Patrick it's always such a pleasure to speak to you and on your station South Africa is facing quite an interesting situation because after 30 years of ANC rule the party of Mandela the Great Liberation Party we have seen as you correctly said a changing of the guard and the institute sport fell but it's time in 30 years to below the threshold of 50 percent so they no longer are the majority party this has forced them into considering a coalition government they call it a government of national unity but effectively it's a coalition government between the ANC and the democratic alliance which is a historically white party and there's a great deal of concern about what this is going to do to the geopolitics of the party and South Africa's position on the world stage and certainly as you mentioned one of the critical issues is the strong stance that South Africa has taken on the issue of Palestine historically as you are well away South Africa's always stood with Palestine unequivocally and has led the charge at the moment with the ACJ but the democratic alliance which is a white-laid party, white-orientated party with very strong connections to the West and Israel is in direct opposition to the ANC stance on Palestine in fact the leader leadership of that party have come out very strongly in favor of what we all know is a party at Israel a government that a government well and a regime an illegitimate regime which is now is now culpable in the most atrocious genocide and also your foreign minister Naledi Pandora she's also you know played a big role and you know in my estimation has been outstanding in representing the country and their foreign policy positions especially regarding the Middle East she has left office and it's an emotional exit she issued a statement or she's spoken to the media as well but issued a very emotional statement very powerful statement as she's left she has really been carrying the torch on this issue so the question is you know who is going is there going to be a torch bearer or anybody with a leadership position on this incredibly important global issue right now that I mean that's that's really burning question and I think certainly minister Pandal has been an exemplary figure in speaking out against the atrocities that we seeing now and and she also has spoken about that for many years you know sometimes the world believes that the conflict began on the 7th of October but it's many it's many decades in the making and she has in all her ministry positions has stood up very strongly for the for the people of Palestine but it's not only her I think to the credit of the ANC government they have been very aligned with the calls and if we remember the great words of Nelson Mandela who said until the people of Palestine are free none of us are free but Patrick we definitely going to see a shift in that the leaders of the democratic alliance you know that they've hosted Zionist leaders in the country they also what we also going to see is probably a shift on the Russian Ukraine matter because the leader of the party John Stian hasn't actually went to show solidarity in Ukraine with the people of Ukraine so I think we going to see a shift not only in that conflict but in the Palestine Israel matter and even on the continent we going to see I think stronger support for Western powers you know at a time where the U.S. is actually fairing very poorly on the continent so it depends the cabinet posts have yet to be decided we could see that as early as tomorrow and we will see what cabinet posts are given to foreign affairs but I think we are going to see a shift to the to a centrist top Western favored approach which is interesting because South Africa has been quite central in terms of pushing the BRICS alignment and I think we could see that take a little bit of a doc actually I was going to ask you about the the BRICS so for the last 10 years South Africa is well one of the founding BRICS members but has invested a lot of political capital into the concept of BRICS and basically creating this network of countries like Russia Brazil India China others all sorts of new members into the BRICS network in recent years and more coming in fact in the coming years so as a founding country how easy would it be I mean it won't be easy to back out of BRICS but what do you see happening do you see BRICS maybe getting bad press in the South African media or do you see maybe some you know public relations games going on because at the end of the day it's about their relationship with Russia and China isn't it yes I think I think the relationship with Russia has been a little bit strained with the presidency of Sir Ramaphosa because the previous president Jacob Zuma had really championed that relationship and we see that Sir Ramaphosa is more beholden to the West he always has been so he is certainly his ideology is closer to the US, UK, European type politics and certainly if he now goes into bed politically with the right-wing democratic alliance who are not in favour of BRICS I think we're going to see a shift it may not be very swift but I think in time we're going to see a dilution of that and as I said the implications for Africa are quite interesting at a time where America is losing quite a lot of control and is looking for a stronger partner and let's see with the Palestine situation was the US making quite veiled threats to South Africa on withholding business support and even evoking sanctions so I think there's going to be a normalization of that relationship with the US in particular to the detriment of BRICS they might try to juggle both relationships but in the end if the DA has power and I do believe they do we're going to see a decisive shift over time to the US and other European let's say imperialist stroke colonial powers yeah this will be a real battleground certainly the neoliberal agenda has been in the ascendancy internationally for a number of years and so there's a lot of pressure put to bear isn't there on a country like South Africa to you know privatize all of its natural resources all of its utilities you've run into huge problems because of this as well in sort of managing things like the power in the electrics there's accusations Kim that the the buy-in with the so-called you know net zero agenda coming out of Davos in Switzerland that this is one of the reasons why you have rolling blackouts in the country that I have heard these accusations as well that there's a lot of there's still a lot of globalist influence in South Africa and yet you're not able to sort of have some of the basic functioning parts components of a modern economy and a lot of this is foreign interference and people beholden to foreign agendas and interests as well so there's that clash isn't there of whether South Africa can be a truly sovereign nation or whether it's going to just be another sort of you know larger vassal state for greater powers like the United States and Europe your thoughts on this yes exactly I mean I think that's a very big question and I think for those that think that South Africa is a free nation and a sovereign nation sadly although we often projected as a poster child of democracy and a miracle nation we're not really often describe South Africa still as a colony that's that has longer ties to the western world than we may want to always project because we sell the myth of liberation and democracy and if you look at some of the statistics in South Africa we still see that black South Africans live in great poverty landless there's been no justice and the ancient government which originally had positioned itself and certainly had some credence as the oldest liberation party in Africa has really served the agenda of whiteness and white supremacy and has aligned itself with the interests of the western world rather than looking after their people you know we see this tendency I mean even with what's going on in Kenya at the moment where we have presidents like richter also more eager to peace at the international masters then they ought to look after their own people we see him you know the raid carpet was spread out for him and lavish feasts in the US while his own people are languishing in poverty and we see a similar pattern in South Africa sadly we not the miracle nation the world speaks about and the fact that we are selling our much needed resources to Germany and Europe in particular is a sad indictment because the people of South Africa black South Africans are living in grave grave politics and as we approach in winter I think many people are going to have suffer deeply so I think the the presidents many presidents in Africa are still more in more intent on serving and gaining favor with presidents internationally and and that's a that's a deep problem I think it's going to take many generations to to solve that and ensure that the continent and certainly South Africa is a sovereign nation for now to certainly not yeah the patterns are pretty familiar by now the playbook is with most African countries at least those that haven't fortified themselves against this but to basically create a situation where the country is plunged into deficit spending into debt they forced them to go to international institutions like the IMF for instance then the IMF imposes you know restructuring conditions on the loan in order to guarantee it's going to get paid back your you end up selling your cash crops and resources on the global market for the highest price you have poverty at home lack of services cutting back on everything health education infrastructure so meanwhile when you get into this kind of vicious cycle it's happened to so many African countries and it seems like it's it's a trap that's set and it's been done for years so some countries have resisted this better than others but the question is is this is this the ultimate destiny for a country like South Africa and by the way you can have extreme poverty and you can also have extreme wealth even in a country like this and most people won't won't see that they just see sort of the main statistics but the fact is a lot of the real money is moving offshore is that the situation in South Africa yes certainly and it's interesting that you mention that because I often in interviews say in 1994 South Africa was as a miracle nation but we've turned in 30 years into the most unequal nation in the world actually and as similar I was writing about Kenya this week and the same statistics are there we've got enormous wealth lying side by side with the deepest and most of brutal poverty and it does have a racial dimension certainly in South Africa if not Kenya perhaps is different but we have elite classes now joining the Western powers for their own benefit and the people are left behind and I think the what we're seeing in South Africa now is the the the reverting back to a centrist type a near colonial government where the white oppressor who's actually unrepentant is now forms a large part of the government I think it's a very very sad step back for Africa because the ANC government had the choice of aligning with progressive black organizations in the form of the economic freedom fighters of Julius Malema who's been a strong advocate for Palestine and the black consciousness and a very anti-Israel as he should be as as any justice seeking person should be and they could have aligned as well with the party the UK party which is under the auspices of the former president Jacob Zuma so instead of choosing a black-led government that have chosen white partners and that's very telling because I always say that in South Africa white supremacy reigns although we have a black government and now it's simply come to the fore I think it's a bad sign for for Africa on the other hand we do have a legion of young leaders especially in the Sahel region and that have come and said we are we are tired of imperialism that we are not going to be negotiating or allowing partners or militaries in or foreign aid or anything countries that don't respect our sovereignty and that's what we be seeing countries like the US being forced out that's one of the big stories in Africa at the moment so I think we've got two different types of paradigms happening on the African continent the one way leaders I believe including our Saramaposa is worshiping the western world and western politics and enjoys that kind of company and yet we have some quite progressive young leaders who are rejecting imperialism and looking for partners that actually honor the development and sustainability of African countries so it's a divided continent and Howard Musil in the future is quite an unpredictable at the moment I think well if if your your concerns come to fruition I'm talking specifically about the economic dire situation for you know tens of millions of South African residents black South Africans if that indeed does if that situation does not improve and it continues to get worse for many people as you were warning about here and then you have this kind of you know unconventional coalition if you will or conventional depending on which way you look at it but wouldn't this potentially set the scene for massive unrest down the road should the situation not improve or get worse because obviously people are going to be looking for someone to blame this happens often in politics you know the majority of the people especially the working class are like well we want that we want the previous ruler this isn't working out we don't think they're representing our interests is that a risk down the road absolutely I think that we seeing in real time that what's happening in Kenya where young people are taking to the street because they tired of their president flying around the world bloke trotting and not paying real attention to the needs of young people I mean in Kenya and in South Africa we have deep unemployment we have deep inequality we have young populations with I think in Kenya the unemployment rate is 40 percent in South Africa amongst a young cohort of people under 35 it's it's over 60 percent now that has to that is a trigger for deep unrest and we're seeing what's happening in in Kenya where the the parliament was stormed yesterday there's rage and rightful rage in my view and in South Africa I think we do we have we have a group of people who have nothing to lose because they're unemployed they're no prospects of getting a job they're living in dial consequences in terrible structures without services so um you know this I think it was jave Kennedy who said if we make peaceful revolutions impossible we going to always must quote him but we actually make um violent revolutions inevitable so I think about leaders aren't listening to the needs the real real needs of people and they're going to face uh outrage like we're seeing in Kenya and uh yeah it's it's devastating I mean we also have in other parts of Africa we have in Sudan the worst um famine that we've we've seen in recent history so there's some real concerns we see in the DRC conflict that is unabated there's no end in sight for peace and we also see interestingly I think Patrick to your point is that we're seeing governments so-called legitimate governments being overthrown by military leaders because they say that the the civilian governments actually aren't providing for the people so I think we're going to see more coups in the future because people are actually putting their faith in military leaders and that sits um that that brings with it some very very worrying consequences oh it does indeed and that that's an interesting uh you know uh thing to look at there traditionally countries will recruit uh the ranks of the military and even the officer class if they're drawn from the working class traditionally um that that tends to be uh a coup that that works in terms of gaining popular support other countries um will automatically staff the officer class with uh families from the elite or bourgeois class of the country who are then trained in Britain at Sanhurst or at uh some academy in the United States so you have two different types of militaries now in South America it's normally the latter we're talking about Chile and Argentina but in Venezuela it was the opposite um the elite class um basically thumb their nose at the military that was something you got into if you couldn't get a job as a lawyer a banker a doctor and so forth hence that set the scene for Hugo Chavez's uh revolution a Bolivarian revolution in the late 1990s as a result of that so you do see these differences in Africa and South America depending on so if that coup's going to be successful and have the support of the working class is very important of the makeup of that military because if the people see that as a reflection of them um then they're more likely to support it I think this is what we've seen in countries like Mallee in Buickinney Faso um you see very much working class identification uh within the military hierarchy but that's not the case in all countries it's a very interesting dynamic but that's a crisis of democracy Kim uh we thought that uh democracy was like the panacea for everything that's as long as it's a democracy uh we have to stick to that but that's not the case isn't that's actually such an interesting insight because democracy isn't working in many places in Africa and um there was a famous playwright in South Africa John Carney he's quite well known across the world and he served in you know under apartheid he was he was a very strong anti-apartheid activist voice and he he said recently what is this democracy what has it brought to me and this is somebody who's had a lifetime struggle uh for the people and he says I don't have land I don't have it's what is this freedom what does it mean and I think his sentiment is uh is rife across many places and you know we have this issue of uh military coups but Patrick also have to look at what what what is a constitutional coup because we see in many African countries that we have leaders who said I'm going to serve one term who are now changing the constitution to serve three or four terms and that to me is as dangerous to democracy as the military coup so as you're saying things aren't homogenous you know these we've got we've got a very dangerous toxic mix of coups whether they are constitutional or military and then we have democratic so called democratic systems that aren't delivering a material benefit to ordinary people and to me that's always the test of an effective democratic government that can that can actually make sure that their people are being looked after I think the one to me although it's a controversial country the one country I think that's doing very well is Rwanda because we may be critical um of the president but in 30 years when we South Africa has gone from a miracle nation to the most unequal nation in the world we see Paul Gagami who's changed the nation from a site of deep genocide to one of great development so I think he seems to be uh developing a a great formula some people speak about him as very being very authoritative and autocratic but at the end of the day he's actually materially changing the fortune of his people and to me that stands art as good leadership in the continent yeah it is it's a catch 22 even with term limits in some countries we take the United States with Franklin Delano Roosevelt a lot of people leave he needed four terms to to develop that agenda and to make it work for the country it takes more than four or even eight years so it is a difficult issue it's a very testy issue look at the Russian federations a good example arguably the most successful politician in the country's history extended his stay in office by quite a few terms but he's extremely popular and so these people are like weighing up the continuity of the economy of the political economy and where the country's heading and some countries have a very high standard in terms of who they want to captain that ship the Middle East has also got its own idiosyncrasies in terms of what they expect and who they expect to be leading them and for how long this is like a very interesting debate I've learned from my travels came over the years that what works in America doesn't necessarily work in other countries much less Afghanistan for that matter so but I think this is an important conversation so South Africa has its it has its characteristics of what can work what isn't going to work I do think there needs to be a rethink in a lot of countries in terms of this western democracy that's imposed on them is also imposed by the west because the western powers know the vulnerabilities of these systems and they exploit them in different ways at every given opportunity whereas you know the Chinese might not exploit the political systems in the same way in how they're doing business with the country like South Africa now Kim I'm going to play you this clip from the United Nations about yet another UN school shelter that has been bombed by the Israelis just this week we'll go ahead and roll this clip only get your reaction to it on the other side let's go on last night again the school has been hit in at the level of the beach camp which is on the northern part of Gaza and reportedly we have heard about 12 people killed 22 would have been injured but this bring also the total of our premises which have been hit or damaged or targeted since the beginning of the war to 190 which is more than half the premises and the infrastructure that we have in the Gaza Strip and as you know these premises and this shelter are also used by the population to seek what remains are the possible protection but more than 500 people so far have been killed while seeking the UN protection so that's that's odd in fact to my call to the member of the advisory commission and other member states we are not only on the political or legislative or smearing a campaign attack but on the ground the UN and on war has also been targeted we have paid a heavy price more than 200 in uh uh humanitarian staff have been killed among them 193 only from my own organization I mean just imagine 190 UN facilities have been bombed destroyed hundreds of UN staff killed uh we've covered the UNRA issue here on this program in great depth previously I mean Kim uh you know there's no international outrage I mean there is but certainly this would call for UN peacekeepers to come in to secure aid deliveries or to protect hospitals I mean nothing it's just like Israel has just allowed rapaciously to do basically whatever they want I mean this is this is incredible your thoughts on this you know it's it's actually outrageous that the world is not responding as it should because it's not like we don't know history is going to judge us very badly because it's not like we can't see what's going on it's not a hidden genocide it's these atrocities are happening they're being broadcast on our screens in our lounges and yet we have failed the people of Palestine and although ordinary citizens have gone out um and and done a good job the governments have been absolutely lacking I mean as we're speaking you know earlier about the RCJ case at least South Africa tried to to lift this onto the world stage and make sure that there was prosecution but we have to ask why is apartheid Israel being protected like this by nations that have the power to intervene at the highest level because as we are speaking the lives of children in Palestine are being snuffed out so I think it's not enough to talk but we have to have a a different a range of of interventions the one is to immediately make sure that no no more children are killed no more innocent men and women are killed no more civilians are are of foot shit and and and united nations on a tour in this having a lot of talk with action I think a culpability for the ongoing station um both in terms of lives and in terms of infrastructure this is a whole nation that is being wiped out in front of us it's it's just absurd to think that this is happening um and I think we need we need stronger intervention I mean at some stage military intervention has to be considered because it may be the only way to defend those innocents that are being killed in Gaza right now and just on a UN level you know the Lebanese civil war the Israeli occupation of South Lebanon is really horrible all those those years but in a way Kim it pales into comparison to what we've witnessed over the last uh going on nine months and certainly it warrants Unifil uh police uh peacekeepers uh UN police maybe battalion's worth just to protect the basic needs of the people I mean at that point you're daring the IDF to start shooting at UN soldiers and I say why not at this point if they're willing to put their lives on the line uh for the people of Gaza then they need to the UN needs to I don't know through the United for Peace resolution there must be some mechanism because it just trumps anything we've seen in the past so why not now why why not blue helmets now? Exactly and I think that should have been done perhaps much earlier uh because what we've seen I mean I found it outrageous after this after the recent um I see J ruling where South Africa had requested further provisions and measures we see that Israel what was their response not to hold backfire but to intensify the war so it's unstoppable we have a a regime where we can't talk it about it as a nation but we have um an apartheid regime that is not listening to international law and they notoriously uh well they're notorious for not following or honoring international law they think they are above above that and they are slaughtering people uh and the world is as I said the world is watching so I don't I don't even know if peace keeping is the right word I think it needs to be um protective defense forces uh as you say armed and making sure that there's no they must actually put their bodies on the line in front of those children if they're serious but I do believe at the moment that all these bodies including the UN for all their emotional talk are very impotent because if they had any control and if they were strong enough wool they would be they would be there so we have to ask what is it that Israel has that the world is so scared of that they are not responding and the US has the power to stop this war and they're not and uh big questions have to be asked I think they must take a great deal of responsibility for the terrible carnage that we see now and which is showing that it's not going to end what is it going to take for this for this genocide to stop it's absolutely outrageous I think this is probably the worst genocide we've seen since I would say the Congo genocide under the Belgian colonias that's how similar it is the only thing is we did today we didn't get to see the Belgian genocide because it wasn't on social media we heard about it they had to collect evidence about it they had to document it after the fact but this one doesn't require any documentation after the fact we've got a rolling record of everything from day one from October uh October 13th 2023 and it's just unbelievable that it's been allowed to basically and ramp up in some cases so at no point has there been any effort to force Israel to apply the brakes to it and then now they want to open up another front in South Lebanon so I don't think that's going to end well in fact that might already have kicked off today by reports we've seen so I mean it's just that this is the problem Kim when you allow something and you don't hit the brakes early when countries stand back and allow it to basically exacerbate you get to the point where you really can't things take on a life of their own and you really can't control it and you end up in a in a world war situation I think this is exactly where we're at we just got a minute left your final thoughts Kim all I can say is that um but for those of us in South Africa uh you know our government may be heading in the wrong direction and we might see a dilution of the uh commitment to stand with Palestine but uh ordinary South Africans I can tell you we we're standing with the people of our Palestine and we won't rest until they are free and uh may this genocide end sooner than than later thank you so much for the opportunity to speak no it's a it's our pleasure I appreciate you coming on the program uh Kim Heller she's an author a political commentator based in South Africa really appreciate your input on this we'll be watching uh of course the political situation in South Africa very closely and especially as it relates to the BRICS uh network the BRICS alliance globally where is South Africa going uh in terms of that issue and what does the future look like for this uh what's turned out to be and we'll remain a very important and influential country uh in the world uh so it'll be a very interesting story we'll key tabs on thank you Kim Heller for joining us and also a big thank you to Freddie Ponton French researcher and journalist for his contribution in the first hour and of course a big thank you to everybody at TNT our listeners our viewers everybody in the TNT chat community we appreciate you coming on board your support your listenership your attention during this broadcast and every day that you join us you make this show happen this is why we're here we're here for you and of course everybody on all the various platforms that we're streaming out to uh as well on X and on YouTube uh we really appreciate you guys and on the audio streams listen everybody that's all we have time for today appreciate you we'll see you same time same place tomorrow with a power-packed program all the best Patrick Kennington your host here at TNT signing out state of the nation coming up stay on the network Escher and Timbo on the other side in just a few minutes take care everybody
