Welcome to another exciting episode of the Top Hall with VISTAGE UAE. I'm your host Simon Lewis, and today we have a fantastic guest with us. He's a seasoned executive with over 17 years in the talent industry and is currently the CEO of Purisma Talent, the strategic advisory delivery business of the Dolsco group. On his leadership, Purisma Talent has merged with Dolsco's outsourcing and permanent placement business, creating a powerhouse in talent acquisition and RPO services across the MENA region. From clinical psychologists to leading a multi-culture country talent operation, his journey is both inspiring and insightful. We'll explore his experiences, challenges and the leadership philosophies that have shaped his remarkable career. Please join me in welcoming Tiago Costa to the top floor. Tiago, a very warm welcome. Thank you, Simon. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Great. Tiago, I'd like to kick off by looking at your background and your early career. Can you tell us about your early career and what inspired you to transition from being a technical psychologist into the very competitive and commercial old-up talent industry? Well, I guess it would be a very, very, very long answer and we would need 25 hours of podcasts just for that. On a nutshell, I always had the passion of psychology. I knew that I wanted to be a psychologist. I had a very romantic view of what psychology is. Reality is once I started and I worked for a few years as a clinical psychologist. I understood that I wanted something a little bit different. I believed that I start losing touch with all the necessary empathy that you need to be a psychologist and that you need to remove yourself of the equation of feeling things, to be able to be a better psychologist. I just found it was time for me to move on to something else, which if I would go back, I would continue to do exactly the same thing. I would do psychology. I would practice as a psychologist and maybe along the way I would shift careers as I did. So how long did it take you to realize that you needed more out of your current role as a clinical psychologist? What were the signals? I think it wasn't in the first couple of years when I started to understand that, yes, I did love being a psychology, but I had a clinical supervisor that told me, look, there is a moment that you need to stop feeling things. As soon as you go home, you need to, let's go, that's your job. I thought, that's really not what I want to be. I don't want to be that guy that just stops feeling empathy towards you will always have a sense of empathy, of course, but you need to detach yourself emotionally from the patients or the cases that you're working with. I just thought, that's not what I want to be. So I want to continue to be fully Thiab, 100% myself with all the good and the bad, and I don't want to lock anything in, so I just decided it was due time to change. Okay, so that change came. What were some of the key challenges you faced when you first started in the recruitment talent management? I didn't know anything about it. So I think most of the people, you know, end up by landing in recruitment days, started in a completely different path, and they end up by, you know, going to recruitment. As I did, I started in a business, which was Haze, where everyone was better than me. Everyone knew more about recruitment than I did. Everyone excelled in it, and I didn't. So I was coming from a clinical background with a very clinical mindset, and when you start in recruitment in agency, there is a lot of driving force that needs to be commercial. And I just thought I didn't have it, or my mindset didn't allow me to think that I could do it. So I did face a lot of challenges in the beginning, in my early years, I would say. Can you give us a specific one that you can remember and you overcame? Oh, absolutely. I remember being on the short floor, and my line manager, which, by the way, taught me a lot about recruitment, telling me, you know, on business development calls, which is one of the parts itself, you need to stand up, and you need the office needs to hear your voice. And I was very shy about it. I was like, "But I have a clinical psychologist. I don't do those kind of things." She's like, "Get up, get up." And people need to hear her voice, and everything inside me was trembling until the moment that she was next to me and say, "See that, see that, see that." It was, at the moment, a very high pressure thing, which now you do, you know, just absolutely normal in a very regular way, but these were the sort of things. I know that they sound very small in their details, but when you're young, you don't know, you're under pressure, and you believe that you're worse than everyone else, because they excel in what they did for a few years. Your voice starts to tremble, and that's not how you position credibility, and you deliver a message. If it's any comfort, I mean, one of the things I get involved in is helping executives do public speaking, and I think there's some research done, in fact, by Harvard business, and they found out that, you know, one of the top three things that executives are most fearful of is actually speaking in public in front of their teams and staff. I think in these days, you know, it doesn't matter what they say, somebody's going to find a problem with it, and you know, I get that. And so I completely empathize with your stage, but as you say, you know, you get used to it, you build up the confidence, and it becomes second nature. But that move from, you know, the clinical psychologist looking at individuals to now a sort of individual is their suitability there for a particular role. What would the, I mean, you must be well equipped to do with that? I believe it does help. I mean, there is no magic formula around it's, you know, people are people, and people changing, people disappoint you, and people make you happy, you know, all of those things. But the reality is, I do believe that my training as a psychologist did allow me to, you know, to notice small, you know, signs, or to give you some, you know, kind of like a spicy sense of a potential red flag on something that you cannot exactly put your finger on it, but you kind of have that feeling. So I think we all have, you know, those kind of feelings. I think my training allowed me to compartmentalize a little bit more what those feelings might be, and why are they associated to it. So at the end of the day, regardless, you know, of the business that you work with, talking about people, it's, you know, people working with people to, to, to, in our case, to, to find jobs for people, which is, I would have to say, something very cool as a purpose. So two years into the role of clinical psychologist, you suddenly realize you needed more, you go into the commercial world, you've obviously sort of picked up some tremendous learning, addressing these challenges. And I want to now focus on the leadership and the achievements. Yeah, you've got a proven track record of delivering results. If anybody looks at you looked in profile, it's pretty impressive. And tied in with those results, you've, you've driven growth. Can you share with us a couple of key milestones in your career that you are particularly proud of? Yeah, sure. So I guess that's, you know, there is a moment, you know, as management, you kind of have like an imposter syndrome. I think we all, you know, share similarity on that. So as I told you, you know, when I started my recruitment's career, I was, you know, I started later than the other. So I had a lot of, you know, work to be done. I guess that I became board director for a PECO in Portugal when I was 31 or 32 years old, I think 32 years old, which made me very, very young for that kind of role. And I think that was actually, you know, a milestone for me. And it was something that made me think, oh, okay, I got there. And it was because I put a lot of work in the previous years on trying to accelerate my growth, which sometimes, you know, it comes with a sacrifice here and there. It takes a personal toll. I would, I don't regret it and I want to do it again. So I think that is one of the milestones. And the other one was related with my current role. I think when I moved to Dulscow, that's the time was Dulscow. And now it's Dulscow group because we expanded extensively in the last, in the last years. And it was to build up a talent solutions business that ended up with emerging acquisition, which is pretty easy, the company that I run as CEO. And I think that was, you know, another turning points of the career, which, which was, you know, focusing on the production acquisition side of the business and integrating to different businesses that are, you know, flying high at a moment, fortunately. I'd like to pick up on that merger and acquisition theme there for a moment emerging charisma talent with Dulscow group must have been a complex process. I mean, you know, I've been on the peripheries, a lot of mergers and acquisitions in my previous career. But the Emirates group, and, you know, it is complex. It's not just a matter of, yeah, this is, this is a company just let's go buy and make money from it. It's not that at all. It's, it's looking at several layers right down to, you know, is there a good fit, behaviorally? We're going to get off, you know. So what were the most significant changes, challenges during Europe, the M&A? And how did you overcome them? That's the M&A between Paris, the talent and Dulscow. Yeah. Well, I'm not even going through the, you know, the legal and financial, the diligence, which is very boring, it's, you know, it's mandatory, as you well know. And I think most of the challenges are related with change management. When you merge two different institutions with two different perceptions of what their DNA is and you want to make one team, there is a lot of change management associated. There was countless processes. Our project management office had more than 400 processes to be able to change in a very short period of time between two companies. Then it's moved to merge, you know, both technologies. And so, so there is all of that. And then, you know, it's packaging everything with a new service offering when you go to the markets and the new entity represents this and not this and this, which it was before. So, I think the challenges are, you know, making the puzzle work. There are a lot of, you know, moving pieces at the same time. In the puzzle and someone is always trying to shift them a little bit to the right or to the left. I think it's making sure of, you know, that's the puzzle works. And that's the vision for the company is delivered as one and not as two different, you know, things that were before. So, I think by now, we accomplished that. It took, it took a while because it's just normal. It's time. But I do believe that at the moment we have, you know, we have a better offering that we had before. And, you know, that's one of the goals, which is always to be better, you know, today than we were yesterday. It's something that we always talk about here. So, I think we're in a better position at the moment. And in that, did you use a particular change management model or was it very much instinctive amongst the team? It was pretty much instinctive and based on some of the good talents that we have, we've been even in the leadership team from the Dotsko group. My boss David Stockman, for instance, is a person very, very, very close to it. Our group CFO, Martin Bradley, also very close to it. We have other colleagues in the leadership team that also support all of it. So, we work very well together in that prospective events. We piggyback on each other's, you know, long-term experience in specific fields to be able to try to deliver a different message and then our direct teams. And then we coach, you know, collaboration, communication on those important things. A bit similar to what we do in this, is you leverage off your peers. Think about, you know, what their offering is and how you can adapt it to us. That's interesting. And that's great to hear. And look, you know, as a CEO, you lead a new entity across several countries. How do you manage such a diverse and geographically dispersed team? With a lot of headaches and some attitude. No, and on a serious note, I think there are two things that make the recipe worse. One is very clear communication and the other one is collaboration across the different departments. You will always have, you know, small, let's call it discussions between interdepartments that do not agree with each other. But as long as, you know, people are talking, things can move along. I think we have very good, we set up very good compliance on our processes. And then it's pretty much finding good people to deliver the strategy where communication continues coaching over the teams. And good collaboration, I think it's fundamental. We have a lot of meetings that are just, let's bring the different stakeholders, let's sit together, let's ask it out, let's brainstorm and let's come with the solution. And out of, you know, all of those discussions, something always comes along. Sometimes you put it in a drawer, sometimes you act on it, but something comes along. And that's the most important thing for me. It's the discussion. And, you know, strategies is something very close to my heart in business. And, you know, you've hit the nail on the head, you know, every successful strategy behind it, there's a batch of execution, there's a batch of communication, and there's a batch of compromise. And people have got to sort of accept that, you know, things do change. And whilst that might knock the strategies slightly one degree off track, as long as you keep that strategy in the forefront of the radar that you're dealing with, and you're keeping it there, and people's mind that there's a bigger purpose going on here, guys. It's not just that becomes important. Can you talk about your strategy in a little bit more detail? Yeah, so we're actually in the moment that we're working for the five-year strategy for Parisima. So we're engaging also with someone who's close to us as external consultants to be able to work with us, not the consultant to deliver just the change management, but someone that's set where I sit at the moment to understand personnel and all of those things. So our strategy is very focused on pretty much continuing to deliver the solutions that we deliver at the moment, but pivoting a little bit more to the hardcore recruitment and talent advisory of our service offering. Our idea is not having, you know, the go-to market of saying we have a service that is A, B and C, what we go to the market is if you have an issue, if you have a problem, if you have a pain point, tell us what it is, and we might find the solution. So our services are bespoke in this case. And the other side of it is the geographical expansion. At the moment we have associates in 14 different countries, which is, you know, outstanding considering that we started, you know, in the UAE with associates one year ago. So our expansion is very strong. At the moment we continue to focus on that. We continue to look at different countries to try to understand if we are going to explore with, you know, bricks and mortar and the boots on the ground to explore those markets or if we do with via partnerships. So it continues to be pretty much expansion. We're not a household name, we're not a company that has an history of 50 years in 100 countries, but we're building our way and we're building our DNA in this case and what it means to be to be pretty easy. So I'm happy with it. There are other parts of it that I cannot expose at the moment because they implicate 30 parties. So yeah, so I mean, obviously in that whole journey of developing a business strategy, there comes negotiation and business planning and I'm the sort of ball call that there isn't strategic planning. Yeah, that's the dichotomy. You get a strategy which you hope to see a positive result in the market and achieve strategic intentions and then you plan to make that happen for a series of making sure you've got good management systems and capabilities in place and all that good stuff. So negotiation, business planning, or critical skills in your role, how did you develop these skills over the years and what advice would you give to aspiring leaders? Well, that's a very good question. I think that's one of the ways was by trying to learn and listen to others. I think sometimes we have the tendency of jumping to the conversation without actually listening, what is being told, and there is so much value in listening and so much value in actually learning with people that does that or do that longer than you. Or if they don't do login, they do it in a different way than you do. And you can always pick, you know, some small learnings from here and there. So I guess that's, you know, if you like to read and my suggestion is always learn, you know, always be a student. It is so important. It is so important. I think that there is a moment in my life that I thought I know everything. I, you know, I reached a specific role very fast and I know everything. I didn't know anything. And I think that is one realization that it hits you and you think, oh, okay, but that's a positive. I see it as a good thing. So I think one of the devices that I would give is always be students. Be willing to learn, understand, and be aware that you have blind spots. It's fine. They're there for a reason. So I think that's, you know, learning with people, listening. I think it's so important. There is so much of it. And when you are coaching your teams and you're mentoring your teams, there is also a lot of learning there. Because while you're mentoring, there are so many moments that you have light bulb moments of thinking, huh, you know, this person understands this because of this, this, this is, I think the best advice that I would be able to give is listen more. Wonderful, great. And it's so simple, a word, but very difficult often to execute. So difficult. And you look, you've mentioned the importance of coaching and developing teams. Can you share some of your strategies for effective team development and leadership? Yeah, absolutely. We have a lot of interdepartmental permutations to make people, you know, evolve throughout different discussions. We have recruitment to put camps for our side of the business. We also have a high potential development for the group. So we select specific number of people across the entire group. They go through an entire program of almost two years with an external institution, not with us. And they go through, you know, developing projects for the group that are not related with their specific business. To be able to create some critical thinking, they go through class environments, they go through field environments, they go through brainstorming sessions. It's very interesting. I myself was put through an executive leadership course by my boss, which was with Berkeley, the University of California, also for 18 month periods. So we do invest in the people that we believe that, you know, are willing to take the next stage. And as a group, the local group, or almost 20,000 people. So there is also different layers of training. We have, you know, online training, we have digital training. So it's something that is, you know, on the forefront of what we believe that we should do for our staff. That's great. So I'm very impressed. I'd love to kind of look at that in more detail. I mean, let's actually talk about the industry in, you know, what's happening in future trends. Yeah, the talent industry, I think, particularly with the sort of world of Gen Z, it's coming up with lots of challenges and opportunities. And it's causing it to rapidly evolve. What trends are you seeing shaping the future of talent acquisition and management in the meaner eating? This is one of my favorites, by the way, and thanks for that question. Because I do have a lot of passion for this. I think that none of us are or are close to be able to, you know, foresee what is going to happen in the future. But I believe that there is a very clear, obvious trends that technology and everyone is talking about the same will replace some of the tasks. Sometimes I have some conversations with some friends and colleagues and so on. And sometimes people have a perception that AI or generative AI is the Terminator, you know, and it comes to eliminate human race when obviously it's far from it. I do believe that a lot of the roles, 60% of the roles that exist at the moment by in the next 20 years will do not exist. It will be replaced. Some of them will need upskilling. Some of them people will need upskills. Their current skills in whatever is that they're going to do. There are a lot of roles that are going to open and pop up that do not exist today. But in 10 years they will exist, such as, you know, industrial revolution. Everyone was concerned about, you know, the farming industry was very concerned what was going to happen. And then you had, you know, the replacement of a lot of automation. And the fact was people lost their jobs, but they were replaced by other jobs and the economy at the time in the United States, you know, they didn't have enough lift. So these fluctuations and these trends will continue to exist. And that's the cycle of the marketplace. Some roles will cease to exist, but other roles will be created that didn't exist back then. I have a small, I have an 18-year-old boy, my son, Stefan. A lot of people sometimes are in interviews or when I'm interviewing people. They ask me, so where do you believe that, you know, what is going to be the future? Do you want your son to be a doctor or an engineer or this or that? And I usually tell them, look, I would love to tell them exactly what it is that I believe that I want him to be. First, it's not for me to decide, it's for him to eventually decide. And the second part, probably I would prefer for him to learn polling or I would prefer him to learn anything related with the generative AI for the future. I don't know. The reality is, I do believe that our educational system at the moment is a little bit obsolete and does need to shift and needs to adapt to the reality of a world that is no longer the world wins. The educational system on its core was created. So the trends on recruitment, I believe they're going to be very, very, very, very focused with the capability of you to multi-skill, of you to be able to adapt to different kind of technology. And it's going to be very focused on technology. I'm not saying that human nature will cease to exist as it is because it is fundamental for critical thinking and soft skills. But there are a lot of tools that allow to automate tasks today that can be acted and create efficiency for the businesses. And I'm very much in your core, Tiago, around. I've got three boys. Fortunately, they've all been very successful on leaving university. They got jobs straight away. But when you actually look at the jobs that they're doing and what they studied at university, they're actually one studied business marketing and is now working one of the big four doing some forensic accounting on the consulting since I've been very successful at it. But here's what I find interesting in what you've said is that, yes, the educational system is probably is a little bit behind the curveball that needs to get up. But I also find that a lot of businesses perhaps are willing to get rid of wisdom and knowledge and experience in light of getting younger people in. And there's some tremendous talent and knowledge and wisdom, as I said, out in the market place that may have reached its ceiling in whatever career they've done, but they've still got a wealth of knowledge. How does the talent industry cope with people like that that are looking for a role but can't get one? Because they're all either too old, they're lacking the current experience. That's actually how people get there. Yeah, you know, that's a very interesting one because when I started recruitment, there was a very clear idea in most of the places that I work in Europe, most of the countries that I work in Europe that after a specific age, you cannot consider candidates because they will not be an added value to the company. And then you have the opposite, which is I want someone with 20 years experience, an MBA that works on this field for 15 years as a leadership position, but I want that person to be maximum 32 years old. So the person gathered all that experience when they were 12 years old to be able to manage the business. So I think there is always, for some reason, a go-to for some of the companies of giving a job description of what they think that should be the profile, but then that profile does not exist at all. And I, interestingly enough, I see that less in the Middle East than I used to see it in Europe, much less interesting. There are a lot of conversations with a lot of our clients, and I'm in the Middle East for, I don't know, eight, nine years, and I lived in different countries and I run different countries in the Middle East also. And that is actually across these different countries, which is the conversations are around the talents, not around the age of the person. And I think here there is a little bit more focus on getting someone that is experienced and it can hit the ground running because we continue to talk about an emerging market that it's always shifting. So you need to be very fast to adapt. And if you don't have the experience to do that, you will burn and fail. So I think there is this side. And then there is the important point for me, which is diversification, which is you do need different spreads of generations and gender and nationalities to be able to tackle problems in a different way. Because if not, I'm Portuguese, when I was in Portugal, everyone thinks in a very close-minded way, in a very similar way, not close-minded, but in a very similar way. When you, and you know this better than I do, or head of strategy for years, when you have different nationalities, there are different ways to tackle that problem, different solutions. And is that collaboration that we're talking about before that I believe it's very, very fundamental. When you have senior profiles that went through different moments in life, and they experienced different peaks and slumps of the career, and people who are just starting and they all have that hunger, and the ones who are, you know, on the between both of these generational gaps that also can tackle the situation in a different way. So I think it's amazing to be honest. All of that mixture, I think it's what actually makes things work. It gives more work to manage, and it's part of much more discussions, but I think it's what's interesting to be honest. So how is Paris metallic adapting to these trends, and what innovations are you implementing to stay ahead of the curve? So we're actually going through a digital transformation at the moment. We're looking at implementing our new ATS with empowered chatbots that will be able to, you know, accelerate a little bit more of some of the things that we do at the moment. We're looking at different technologies at the moment. Some of them are actually still being studied for our business, but we're doing a digital transformation across the entire group. The perspective is digital transformation doesn't finish on point A, B, or C, it's a journey. It will continue because, you know, new advanced will come, new technology will need to be adapted. So I believe that while, if you asked me this five years ago, we were behind the curve. I think now we're, you know, shifting, and we are accordingly to the plan, and we're looking now to what can we do further to be able to be ahead at the moment. I think we're stabilizing at the moment what we need. And look, we've covered an awful lot of ground in the short space of time, and, you know, getting back to that strategy theme and how, you know, charisma talent is employing it. One of the things that I learned certainly working for a global brand was this thing that yes, people do things differently in each country. But if you've actually got a very clear, very clear strategy, which combines, you know, your corporate values, your mission, your vision, your purpose, all of those good things, that actually becomes the common denominator. And it becomes something that, you know, if, you know, culturally people might not see your values straight away, because they've got a thing. But actually, if they're making, you know, that got all 80, 20, 20, we're making 20% effort is going to have an 80 cent impact on taking the business forward. So I want to finish off, Tiago, looking at your personal insights and getting some advice from you. Your background in psychology and neurophysiology is unique for your CEO. We've established that. How does this knowledge influence your leadership style and approach to business? I think, I think you, I, I think it touches different points. I think some of them I might not even be aware of, to be to be completely honest. But I do think that it's allowed me to look a little bit more in the business in an holistic way with the people and not just the number. So, you know, CEOs were very, as you know, very pressured on delivering, habitat delivering sustainable growth for our shareholders. You know, living, living the company better than when, when, when we took it first, we're custodians of, of the business. I, I think it did help me a lot on understanding the emotional side of it, behind the fights, the discussion, the grind, the happy or the sad moments between different teams because different people experience success or failure in different ways. And I think it is a job, it is my job as a CEO of delivering a message that tries to convey and put everyone in the same mind frame to be able to go there while understanding that we will fail here and there, but we do need to expect to succeed further down the line. So, it's all about while the journey is going to be able to, to sustain those hits while creating growth for the people itself, not only for the business, but for the people itself. I, I do think that the psychology side of it allowed me to sometimes to be able to engage in a different way that is outside of a boardroom or a meeting room or whatever and have a conversation with, we're, we're human. I mean, sometimes we forget that the person has the task or the role or the name, but at the end of the day, we all bleed the same way, right? It's, it's, it's, it's all about, you know, emotions. And, and I do believe that there is a very old school mindset that the CEO cannot say that's in its help or, you know, it has an issue or whatever. I think that is absolutely, it's fundamentally wrong. And I think it's a proof of strength because you believe in yourself enough to not be intimidated by saying, look, this part, I do not master. Can you help me on getting there? Or let's have a discussion. Let's have a conversation. How are you feeling? I think one of the things that COVID changed was people used to pass by each other on, you know, hallways and say, or in the water cooling and say, Hey, how are you? I'll do their things. And then people start to say, how are you? How are you feeling? Oh, you know, our things without wanting, you know, companies to be combined, you know, having, you know, therapy sessions every other five minutes. I think there is a space, time and value of actually getting concerned with your colleagues and asking them, or are they throughout, you know, some periods of time, because we're people. And when people get along better, they perform better. What motivates you daily? And how do you maintain your passion for the talent industry? I think I absolutely love what I do. I have to say, you know, some of my colleagues will tell you know that I hate it because I'm very stressed sometimes, but absolutely love what I do. I play sports all my life. And I think there is something that comes with sports, which is the competitiveness and, you know, the desire to win. I have a burning desire to win. And I think that's what, you know, makes me always keep going, because when I think I hit milestone or a goal that I wanted, I'm already thinking the next one on. Okay, what if, you know, what if, so I have a huge desire to win? About talents. I love the industry. I mean, can you imagine a cooler job than it is your job to find other people's job? I mean, you have the possibility of putting, you know, bread on the table for other people, because they have a job. They can fit their family. They can buy whatever they want. They, you know, whatever it is. I think it's a great job, to be honest. In my perspective, you know, obviously we're not saving lives or not surgeons and saving lives. But what I'm saying is putting things into perspective. I do think that we have a very cool job. And I don't think people sometimes, even in the industry, think about it, because you're so underwater with the pressure of the KPIs, the numbers, these delivering stakeholders, shareholders, your boss, that they forgot to think that's the bottom line. Everything in the end is you have a person that needs a job and you find the job to that person. Great stuff. All right, good. And finally, what advice would you give young professionals, aspiring to reach the leadership positions in talent in talent in the recruitment industry? Oh, something that I touched along the conversation today. Always be a student. You will always have blind spots. It's fine. You need to improve them for that. You need to be aware. You need to listen to others. Always listen. There is a massive, massive, massive, massive value on listening. And it's one of the hardest things to be accomplished, because we always have an idea of what we want to say, and sometimes someone is talking with you and you're already thinking about the answer in the next, try to take a breath, listen, and then engage. I think that's a massive value on it, to be completely honest. And another one, if you don't mind, is the employer lose your standards. That's one of the things that I took for myself, which is regardless of the situation, do not lower your standards. If you have a specific standard, achieve to keep that standard, and you will be fine. Yeah. Something that was drilled into me at a very young age, when I went to the raw military academy centers, the standard you walk past is the standard you accept. Absolutely. And it's stuck with me ever since. I completely understand that one. Thank you for sharing it. Tiago, thank you. And thank you for sharing your incredible journey and insights with us today. I mean, your experience of wisdom are really inspiring, I have to say, and I'm sure our listeners will find immense value in your story. We look forward to seeing you and the continued success of Prisma talent under your leadership. And to our listeners, please subscribe, hit that like button to listen to more to interviews from the top floor. Tiago, keep well, stay safe, and best of luck for the future. Thank you so much. I mean, it was an absolute pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.
