Main Street
Presidential Debate Preview; July 4th Foods; Zandbroz Variety
Support for Prairie Public is provided by North Dakota Living, celebrating 70 years of featuring the great people in places of North Dakota, and proudly serving the members of North Dakota's electric cooperatives. Welcome to Main Street on Prairie Public. I'm Craig Wuhmenschine. Oh, I have that you are with us. In the second half of today's show, we'll talk 4th of July foods on our weekly Prairie Plates series, and my co-host Ashley Thornberg reflects on the passion and creativity that transformed Zandbroz into a cornerstone of a revitalized downtown Fargo. But first, we turn our attention to tomorrow night's presidential debate between former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden. It's a pleasure to be joined again by Dr. Michael Patrick Colanane from Dickinson State University. He's a professor of history and the Lomond Walton Endowed Chair Theodore Roosevelt Studies. Dr. Colanane, welcome back to Main Street. Oh, he's a pleasure to be here. Craig, thanks for having me. As I told you in my email, somebody said there's a debate this Thursday. Obviously, we're talking about the upcoming presidential debate. It's the first between President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump. It's scheduled to take place on Thursday. It'll be held at CNN's Alata Studios. Notably, there will be no live audience present, and the debate will be moderated by CNN's Jake Tapper and Dana Bash. Dr. Colanane, will the winner of this debate be our next president? It's hard to say, of course, but I tell you, I don't think I remember a debate ever being so consequential as this one will be, in part, because these two candidates we know very well, and so whatever version of those candidates show up, that's going to be the one we remember for a long time. Because, of course, the schedule this year means that we have this extremely early debate, and then the second debate, which is likely to be the last one, is late in the cycle in September. So, we have the entire summer to remember and ponder the debate that they're going to have at the outset. The debate stage, of course, will have just the former president and the current president. Notably, Robert F. Kennedy failed to qualify for this debate. Will he have an impact still in this election, do you think? Well, we're talking about fine margins here. We're talking about polls that seem to suggest that the two candidates are tied, or at least they're constantly within the margin of error. So, if Robert Kennedy peels off 1 percent from either Trump or Biden, or 1 percent from both, it could have a real big difference to the end of the total count. So, while I don't think that Robert Kennedy has any shot to win the White House, he does have the opportunity to play the spoiler. Just like past years, like 2000 with Ralph Nader or Jill Stein, third-party candidates like Robert Kennedy, they have a real shot at upsetting the race. I've read Dr. Cullinan that usually the incumbent is at a slight disadvantage in this first debate because the challenger is the one who's been debate tested in the primaries. Of course, that's not the case this time. Anything like that in the history of presidential debates? I mean, there is a history of incumbents doing less well than the challengers, but this is such a strange debate. I mean, you really have to go back quite a ways in history to find a similar situation where you have a former and a sitting president running for reelection. There is nothing in modern history, nothing in the 20th century where this has happened. So, you have to look really to 1892 when you have an election, anything like this. And of course, the debate stage is so different back then. So, really, this is unprecedented in our modern contemporary political history. And that is in part what I think makes all of this very exciting, is that you have two candidates that almost unanimously elected by their base. So, there's no effective primary. And now they're coming to the American public. And the American public know these two. Their bases are quite strong and clear that they're going to vote for these candidates. So, it's two, three, four percent of independence and those in the middle that are going to make the difference. And so, I mean, that makes this debate very important. This debate is not sponsored by the Presidential Commission on Debates. Is that impactful? I think it is, in part because this is a CNN, the stage is CNN stage. The anchors are CNN anchors. There's new technology involved in the sense that there's going to be muting allowed. There's not a live audience. And I don't want to say that it doesn't make it independent, but there is a sense that this could be perhaps slightly more partisan than past debates that have gone on. In part because the debate commission is non-partisan, it's completely independent. And the timing of this as well plays into that idea that this could be more partisan. So, I mean, we can discuss all the technological differences and the possibilities that the anchors might have a slight preference for Biden. I mean, certainly Jake Tapper, for example, has a background as a Democratic analyst and PR spin doctor. Dana Bash or Dana Bash is, she's much more independent and I think she has, but there's not a Republican moderator at this debate. So, who are they going to mute? How is it going to play out? I mean, the stakes are quite high for God on Trump, I feel in this, perhaps more so than even Biden. I think Biden will have some confidence coming into this debate given the setting and the circumstances. What do you think about this technology and the format? There will be no live audience. You say it will be more partisan, which is a little bit of a surprise to me. I think that when candidates are playing to the crowd that's right there, sometimes they really get partisan because of the applause, lines, et cetera, et cetera. And those won't happen. We won't hear the applause this time around. We will have muted mics. What do you think of this format? The reason why I said it's going to be more partisan is because I think it favors Joe Biden pretty clearly. I mean, if you think about past debates that Donald Trump has participated in, whether it was 2016 or 2020, those debates, he was able to do his thing, which Donald Trump's thing is sort of whipping up a crowd. Without a crowd there, that's kind of what's entirely impossible. The other thing that favors Biden is that Donald Trump is much more likely to interrupt. We saw that in previous debates as well. And those interruptions can be really powerful. And without those interruptions, if Dan Abash and Jake Tapper are hitting the mute button, Donald Trump has less of an opportunity to make his presence felt. And so for that reason, I feel like this is a slightly more partisan setup because I think it does favor Biden over Trump. The other thing that I recall when President Trump debated Hillary Clinton, is he forcefully and visibly to me used his presence to try to intimidate? Did you read it that way from your recollection? And I don't think that will be able to happen this time. They'll both be at their podiums. I mean, that is absolutely my recollection of 2016. Is that looming presence him standing over Hillary? So this is going to be very different. And the other thing I think is going to be really important to how this is perceived by the public is when do we see the split screen? And when do we just see a single candidate? So there's no opening statement in this event. So this is just a straight up debate between the two candidates. It's not going to be quite the same as previous ones. And that jucks the position of Trump and Biden side by side on a split screen. Imagine watching Donald Trump trying to say something, but his mic is muted. And so you just see his lips moving. I mean, that's a much weaker position, I feel like then the Hillary when he's looming over her and making his presence felt. So there's going to be it's going to be interesting to see if CNN winds up editing and cutting this so that the American public might see kind of neutered Donald Trump. That's my expectation. We're going to talk about age in just a moment, but I feel that President Biden looks less old. If that's a term at a podium, then he does when he is standing and walking and might that also play to President Biden just the look of how he appears on television? Absolutely. Without a question, I think that is one of the things that makes Biden has a certain gate when he's walking. And it does look rather old. And Donald Trump, although he's not far off in age, doesn't have that same sort of gate. So the other thing is that Donald Trump has set the expectations fairly low for Joe Biden because the campaign has focused so steadfastly on Joe Biden's age. And Donald Trump has been calling Biden Sleepy Joe for years now. If he's not Sleepy Joe on the day, if he's bright and perky, if he's eloquent, I mean, that absolutely tarnishes the impression that Donald Trump has been trying to create. In fact, in the last couple of weeks, Donald Trump has been saying that actually Joe Biden is quite a good debater. He's been trying to reset the expectations on the debate in order to make Joe Biden have a higher bar to pass in order to win over the American public. And it's been that fine line between wanting to call him Sleepy Joe. And now actually turning and saying, well, actually, he's quite a good debater. And he's, you know, he's quite cognate. And you know, that is that is something that the campaign has switched years on recently. Before we get into individual debate topics that I want to visit with you about recent trials, Hunter Biden convicted the former president convicted. Does that all play into the debate that we're going to see on Thursday? I think it does. I think Joe Biden has been very careful to how he how he manages Donald Trump's conviction in New York. At first, he didn't say anything. And then the White House came out with an official statement. When the debate is on, I think he's going to have to say something about the conviction. The real problem is actually for Donald Trump, because no former president has ever been convicted of a felony. So this is a really, this is a watershed moment in criminal justice history in America. The other thing is, is that Donald Trump wants to depict his conviction as an aberration, as a witch hunt, as as something that's, you know, not not fair. However, the conviction of Hunter Biden shows that actually, you know, this convictions work on both sides of the political divide. And so he he's lost a lot of that ability to say that this was a witch hunt when 100%. So I think Biden, Biden is going to have to address this Trump is probably going to have to address it either in a rebuttal of some sort, or directly if asked about it by Tapper and Bash. But it's going to be there for certain. I listed a set of my top unknowns for this debate. And we've talked about a couple of them. The moderator influence you discussed well, the format, how it might impact the debate. What about topics? There are an array of topics that can be drawn out of the topic hat, if you will. What will this debate focus on? Well, I think each candidate is going to have topics that they're going to want to focus on issues that they think their base, as well as the swing voter, if there are already swing voters left, that they're going to want to hear about. I think for Donald Trump, immigration is one of his strongest policies. And he's going to go on and on about the mass deportations that he's promised that has been policy number one going all the way back to 2016. You can debate as to whether his record stands up to his rhetoric. And I think that's something that Joe Biden is going to want to attack Biden is addressing this in his own way. Immigration, he's recently revised his views on the border, and he's made some moves in order to increase patrols and deportations. So he's addressing that. Immigration is big. The economy is big as well for Trump. Trump's going to want to remind everyone of the good old days during his four years when the economy was flying high without any inflation. However, I think Biden is going to have an easy rebuttal here, given that Donald Trump's big policy idea around the economy is to bring in widespread tariffs across most imported goods, which by all economists' opinions on the right and on the left, that will raise inflation. Basically, the protectionist approach, I mean, the basics of the tariff is if you put a 10% tariff on all imported goods, which is basically Trump's idea with maybe a few exceptions. But if you bring that in, that's a 10% tax levied on all goods. Safe from China is a really good example. Try and not buy something from China nowadays. That's 10% on every single product imported from China. That is a direct inflationary built-in tax. So it's controversial. I think I get why Donald Trump is arguing for it. And there is an economic rationale behind it that's actually quite sound, but it's a throwback to a previous time, and it would really change the economic system in the United States. We've been a free trade system for a very long time, and the world champion of that system. So economics is going to be a big one. For Joe Biden, I think the one that he's going to want to hammer home is abortion, the end of Roe vs Wade, which galvanizes female voters around the country, often, you know, irregardless of party. And then I think the other one for Joe Biden is going to be foreign policy. Ukraine and the winning of that war is an essential part of American national security and our partnership with Europe. And the Trump policy on Ukraine is waffling, and weak, at best, at worst, it could lead to the collapse of the Eastern Europe as we know it. So I think those are the policies that are going to divide the two candidates. There will be other things that come up, of course, too. And I think the commentators, the month are going to have questions that they're going to pose as a reaction, possibly. So while they talk about Ukraine, Gaza is likely to come up as well. When they talk about the economy and inflation, interest rates are going to come up as well. So I think we're going to see those being the four big categories, but within them, smaller subcategories. Enjoying our conversation with Dr. Michael Patrick Cullinane. He's with the School of Education, a professor of history and the Lomond, Walton, endowed chair of Theodore Roosevelt studies at Dickinson State University. Just last week, the heads of state from Russia and then North Korea met in North Korea. You spoke just a moment ago about foreign policy. Much has been said about Trump's relationship with the leaders of North Korea and Russia. How does that play into what we might hear on Thursday? I think it's certainly going to play a major part. I think the Biden administration, they really dropped the ball and then around the start of the Ukraine war, because when that war started, Ukraine made such great progress and really pushed Russia to its limits. And if Biden had invested fully in the war, and if Europe had done the same, I think they could have pushed Russia nearly out of Ukraine in those early days. But since then, Russia has really brought the war back to Ukraine and they're reclaiming territory that they had once lost from Ukraine. And so it's a very, it's a tenuous place at the moment. Now, there's new arms coming to Ukraine, but whether they get there quick enough to, again, turn the tide of the war is a big question. Trump's policy seems to be to limit American involvement in Ukraine and elsewhere in the world too. That's the whole America-first agenda, is to make sure that Americans not getting involved in foreign wars that don't concern it. I think the real question that Americans have to ask themselves to the debate is does the security of Ukraine have a direct impact on the United States? And I think people that believe in the national security state would say yes. And I think people that are wary of that national security state would say no. But that will be the main topic, I think, for them to address. Dr. Koliname, we've talked about the debate moderators for Thursday's presidential debate. Kristen Welker in 2020 was, in my opinion, one of the best moderators we've seen in my view. Now, she's the gold standard. Do you agree? I do. I think that was an excellent one. I will say, I think this combo, I think it has the potential to be as good as that one in the sense that they did the Republican primaries in 2024 in Iowa. And that was a, I mean, Trump wasn't on the stage. We know that, of course. But that was, you know, Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis. And that was a really engaging debate where I feel like we did get a sense from the candidates of where the fault lines lie. Now, I don't know, will that be the same? But one of the big things that these two have to do as moderators is to make sure to keep things civil, which I'm hoping this mute button does. But the debates have gone from, really since the 1990s, they've descended into playground sort of arguments. And the 2024 Iowa Republican primaries were very much policy-based. And I think you got a real sense of the candidates. In fact, I think that's what propelled Nikki Haley to be the chief challenger to Trump. So that's what we need to get out of this as well from Dana Bash and from Jake Tapper. We need to get a moderation that's going to allow both the candidates to say their peace without it descending into childish, you know, tit-for-tat soundbites. Dr. Cullinan, which debate in presidential history has been the most important relative to the general election? Well, I had to go all the way back to 1960, I think, to the Nixon-Kennedy debate, which was really important because I think it set the stage for celebrity politics, which is really where we're at now. I mean, you can't be a viable presidential candidate without having that charisma, you know, the television charisma. And that 1960 debate between Nixon and JFK was one that really showed off a youthful, charismatic president, JFK, perspective president, against the vice presidential candidate Richard Nixon, who was also young, but had a different look. And of course, you know, most of the commentary focused on Nixon's sweating and his sort of sense of unease and the pressure that it looked like he was under, whereas Kennedy had a coolness about him. And I think that really is something that successive debates have shown as well. So you can think about George H.W. Bush looking at his watch in 1992, giving off the air. Yeah, right, he didn't want to be there, right? I should be somewhere else right now. So, you know, those little things have a big difference in how the public perceives a candidate. And I think coolness and charisma are, you know, the foremost things that you want to exude on that debate stage. But about social issues, you mentioned abortion. I think what we're seeing, though, is as this plays out, legislatures are not, well, often they're not medical doctors. And so what we often see is that when policy meets reality, there's some major differences. And some of them can have, you know, severe health implications too. So while Donald Trump can say that, Biden is often, you know, able to rebut the idea that states rights matter when the health of a woman or a baby come into the picture. And, you know, he can allude to a number of cases where, you know, the rules, but the legislature lays down, you know, don't match up with the reality. And the other thing is, too, is doctors, in particular, are saying that a lot of these abortion bans are causing distress within the medical community of these states. So the constitution allows for this, though, right? I mean, so the constitution allows for states to do their own thing on issues that don't pertain to the federal government. And so that's where the debate lies in all this. And, you know, how much power does the federal government get to effectively have over our day-to-day lives? That's the question at hand. And I think if it's kept to that about constitutional powers, I think Trump wins. I think if Biden plays on emotions and storytelling, I think Biden has a real chance there to say, well, look, this abortion issue is much more than just state-state rights and the power of the constitution. It's about women. It's about empowering women to be in control of their own bodies. So this, for me, is how they both should play it. Trump should stick to the constitutional argument. Biden should try and make us an emotive issue. What are we going to be talking about Friday, about each candidate's age? How do you think that's going to play out? It's hard to say. I think if you are a Republican, you look at Joe Biden and you say, he's far too old to be president. I think you can be a Democrat and look at Joe Biden and say he's too old to be president. In fact, in North Dakota, right, they just passed that law to say that you can't be over 80 and running for office. I'm curious. Or you can. Real quickly to know, do you think that'll stick a constitutional test? I don't know. I mean, there are age restrictions on the presidency, too. You have to be 35 to be president. And that is stuck. So I don't know whether it can be a legislative issue or, in fact, needs to be in the state constitution, but age limits exist. But going back to Biden, I think his age is a major problem, in part because of the way it looks, the optics of it. Do I think that he has any cognitive difference from Trump? Actually, I don't. I mean, I think I look at Trump four years ago when he was running against Biden in 2020 and he looks much older today. So this is going to be one of these carefully constructed stories. You know, is Trump going to go for Biden on age? I think he's liable and open to the same criticisms as Biden is. However, the big difference is, again, with that two, three or four percent in the middle, those either independents or swing voters, what do they see? Because they're the ones that are going to make a difference in the actual election. If our listeners want to understand the debate relative to what I just heard, was it true or not? In other words, fact checking. Where will you go to check facts, or where can our listeners go to check to see whether or not what the presidential candidate said was factual or not? Well, that is such a big problem nowadays, fact checking, and where people get their facts from. So there are reputable sites, but I think reputable is even a term that has come under severe criticism. Do you go to the New York Times? Well, if you don't think the New York Times is reputable, then no. Do you go to Breitbart? Well, if you think Breitbart is reputable, then that's where you go. So actually fact checking in this day and age and on-demand fact checking is to the internet. And the different sources will say different things. I think there are independent ways of doing this. And that is looking up these facts for yourself on not just reputable websites, but I think there's liar, liar, pants on fire, which is the political dial that they have on one of the websites. There's degrees of rightness and wrongness, there's degrees of lies. And I think it's not easy to find this out. There used to be, if you recall, in some of the debates, a fact, the live fact check can go on. And I think Twitter is a really good place for that too, or formally Twitter, now X, is a really good place for live fact checking. And there's a number of people you could follow on Twitter to do that. But again, there's a political tilt with all of this. Anyone that you're listening to online is going to have an angle to grind for certain. So real clear politics is a wonderful website to look at latest polling and news stories on both the left and the right. So that's where I often go to to see what the commentary is, whether it's from right or left sources. But it's a minefield for people nowadays. And I think this is very different from the 20th century, when we all got our news from the television and the newspapers. And there was a sense of trust there. That trust has been eroded over the last 20 years. I feel like we're on a sports talk show here getting ready for the big game. So the last thing they always do is they go around the room. And since I choose not to offer my personal opinions, I can ask you what yours is. Who's going to win? I love the sports analogy, because I think if we're talking about home field advantage, I think Biden's got home field advantage, CNN, Atlanta, you know, muting, and I think the moderators. However, I think a lot of this is going to come down to who you gravitate towards naturally. And I think people regardless of how the economy is actually doing, they don't feel like the economy is doing great. And the perception of things in the US now is that it's not moving in the right direction, which gives Trump a massive advantage in this debate. If you can convince people. So I'm going to give a slight edge to Biden in the sense that he's got home field advantage. But I think that Trump has the easier sell. All he has to do is convince people that the last four years haven't been as good as his time, you know, eight years ago, which was, you know, that's harder to remember. So a slight advantage to Biden, but only Jeff's Craig. Dr. Michael Patrick-Colonane. He's our go to guy when we want to learn about presidential history and all things about presidents. The debate between President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump will be on CNN tomorrow. That's Thursday, eight o'clock central and seven p.m. mountain time. Dr. Colonane, as always, thanks so much for joining us. And this journey will continue clear up until the general election. Thanks for having me again, Craig. It's always fun. Coming up a July 4th edition of Prairie Plates and a tribute to Fargo's Zandbroz. That's after this. I've been listening to Prairie Public right now, so I bet you're a bit of a news junkie, right? But do you also like music? I bet you do. Prairie Public is the place for that too. Did you know that we have a guy named Mike Olson, who spends adult album alternative music during the week? There goes the last DJ, who plays when he wants to play. He's got an endless library, limitless musical knowledge, and a clever way of handcrafting sets of songs. You can listen to Prairie Public's Ruth Rock and Jaztree him on an app or a smart speaker pretty much anywhere, and on an HD radio anywhere in the region. Check out Mike Olson on Prairie Public weekdays from 9 a.m. to 10, and noon to 6 p.m. All right, that means it's time for Prairie Plates with a Rick again. Rick, we've got a holiday coming right up one where we often get to spend a lot of time outdoors and grilling, essentially. Happy Fourth of July coming right up to you. Yes, it's my favorite holiday, and it's a good food holiday too. And what are you eating on the Fourth of July? Oh, a lot of stuff. When is that not the case? It's a broad question, and I tried to do my best, and yeah, a lot of stuff, a lot of grilled foods, barbecue foods, and so I'll be having a lot of fun. Probably cooking Thai food at the lake. I'll be out at Heart Butte Lake Chita by Elgin, North Dakota, and that's kind of a popular spot in southwestern North Dakota. Large reservoir, and my friends have a pretty nice place out there. Nice. And why Thai food? Because a lot of people do the classic brats, burgers, cookie salad if you're in the Midwest, or maybe something with blueberries, raspberries, and whipped cream, so you get the red, white, and blue in there. Sure, I like all that stuff too. But I do like to make Thai food when I'm out there. People really enjoy it, and there's actually a couple cabins that come over, so I really have to make a large batch, and it's probably like a gallon of green curry, a big batch of Pad Thai, something like that, and then some fun desserts or drinks, something like that. But we'll also be making classic burgers, veggie burgers. I have a try-tip roast I'm bringing out, which will be really good, a flank steak, and there's just some other stuff too that we'll be throwing on the grill and cooking up. How come when I order a veggie burger, it's good, and when I make a veggie burger, it's not? Yeah. Fresh ones, freshly made ones at some restaurants can be pretty good, but yeah, I mean, if you buy them frozen and I cook them from frozen, because a lot of times they kind of just fall apart, but I think the important thing with veggie burgers, and I do like veggie burgers, I try to eat healthy, not just pizza and ice cream and all the things we talk about, but do not overcook them. There is a big thing, especially grilling, where you can just cook the heck out of them, and they're just not good. And so you really, and that goes for a lot of meat too, right? You know, a lot of beef, you don't want to overcook and pork and that sort of thing. But yeah, I mean, same principles apply, it's just kind of a different texture type of thing, but don't overcook them. What about if you are making it from scratch? I feel like they often tend to fall apart a bit. Like, what are some of the better binders for certain veggie burgers? Are there ones that are like just bigger culprits? Yeah, I think a lot of people like to use bread crumbs. And if you're gluten free, that doesn't really work. I like falafel quite a bit. And I love falafel. Yes, and I make it from scratch. You got to buy dried chickpeas. You have to grind them in a meat grinder with all these herbs and spices and that sort of thing. And so I'll fry them, shallow fry them in a little olive oil and that sort of thing and get them crispy. I know you're supposed to deep fry them. I just don't want to waste a lot of oil when I'm cooking for myself. But it's kind of the same principle, but the beans have that protein that really is a binder and I don't use a lot of flour or any flour in falafel, which guarantees it will be light. A lot of people use too much flour or chickpea flour. It just doesn't work. You have to grind the beans. Kind of coarsely, not too coarsely. There's an art to it. But yeah, veggie burgers, a lot of bread crumbs use, a lot of like bean, chopped up bean, that sort of thing is a binder, but sometimes those fall apart too. So it's really finding the right recipe, trying out quite a few of them and getting something that fits. What are some good tips and know we've talked about grilling in burgers before, but for those going with the classic meat burger? Yes. Beef burgers, I love. I think a lot of people out there do too. But there's some tricks to them. Personal preference here. I don't like to mix the meat with a lot of salt and pepper and onions and things like that. I kind of like to just take it right out of the package, make a patty, and then put the salt and pepper on the outside, maybe let it sit for a little while. And then when they're on the grill, the other side, I'll put a little salt and pepper on. If you over mix meat, it really gets kind of gummy and chewy and it gets, in extreme situation, it gets rubbery like if restaurants make meatballs and they're putting them in the mixer and letting them go too long, it will get chewy. And so with burgers, don't over mix the meat. And another thing is I like to make a little dimple in the middle. Okay. Because they'll shrink, sometimes at certain places, add some moisture to ground beef. Most places don't. And that's why I like to go to butcher shops, but some places will do. But they'll shrink up. And then the middle will be really tall. And I think people understand what I'm talking about that have cooked burgers on the grill before, but a lot of people will just put a dimple in them and not a whole but a dimple. And then lately, I've been seeing some stuff on social media about doing a dimple and then putting an ice cube in there. And I'm not, I'm not really sure that maybe I'll try that technique, but maybe that's just kind of some weird thing on TikTok. Do you get a lot of good cooking techniques from TikTok? There's some pretty, pretty good videos out there. Some questionable ones too. Hit or miss, I would definitely say hit or miss. And I don't know lately, I haven't really seen much, but sometimes you'll be watching it. I never thought of that. And wow. But I kind of go to YouTube for a lot of stuff. But I stick with like severe food and wine, bone apity. There's a few traditional. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are some known entities here. What about veggies and even some fruit? You can toss a surprising amount of fruit on the grill. I really like grilled peaches with some sweet and ricotta with a little cinnamon or something. And then your peach, you can put some sugar or honey on and then put it on the grate. I would wipe your grate off so you don't get a bunch of hamburger fat on there. I made that mistake a few times and you look at it or taste it like, wow, this tastes like a peach in a hamburger. But I would clean that grate first. But yeah, grilled peaches can be quite good. Grilled watermelon can be pretty good. I kind of like watermelon straight up. That one feels like just kind of hard. Are there good tips for grilling watermelon? I just do it hot and fast and be sure to wipe that grate off because you don't want it. You don't want it tasting like your ribeye steak, you know? Yeah, no, that's definitely definitely a bit much. And veggies. Yeah, a lot of veggies you can do on the grill. I do a lot of stuff with veggie baskets. I think they're very good. You can contain them. They don't fall down into the grate, which a lot of people get really frustrated with. They just kind of man overboard sort of thing. And then kebabs. I do a lot of kebabs when I'm at the lake and a lot of veggie kebabs because I like that mix of zucchini, summer squash, mushrooms and tomatoes. A little bit of lemon and rosemary on those. Sure. Yeah, balsamic vinegar, stuff to sweeten them up, something like that. I mean, I put some some nice seasonings, high quality stuff on there. But that can be really good with some rice or something as a side. And yeah, grilled veggies are great as well as on the flat top. You can do stir fries on like a blackstone. That's what I'm talking about. You can also, I've stuck a walk in a charcoal grill and done stir fry that way. And that thing gets up to like 800 degrees. Oh my gosh. And you get that kind of that really good smoky wok flavor. Yeah. Oh, delightful. Are you grilling desserts at all? I don't grill a lot of desserts besides maybe some fruit. Some people will do brownies and other things. I don't really do a lot of that. I think that kind of can stick to the oven because I just don't want a lot of smoky flavor in the desserts. Some people like that. But for me, I just kind of am pretty traditional with desserts. One thing that's really good outdoors on the flat top griddle though is breakfast. And I don't know your eggs and your hash browns and sausage and bacon. That's a lot of fun to do outside in the morning. Maybe have a little beverage while you're doing it. But yeah, those those breakfast can be quite good if you're doing, you know, veggie burritos or something like that. Or you can do pancakes. Those flat top griddles can be a lot of fun, especially for breakfast or brunch if you're really getting done. Oh, yeah. That sounds delightful. All right. Well, wishing everybody a good, safe, happy and festive. Fourth of July out there. Thanks, Rick, for joining us. Thank you. Support for Pray Public is provided by Josh Beauche, Broker in Real Tour with Real Broker LLC, with a team of agents serving homebuyers, sellers and investors throughout North Dakota, the Detroit Lakes area in Northwest Minnesota. Josh can be reached at 701-367-3513. This is Main Street on Prairie Public. I'm Craig Blumenshine. My co-host, Ashley Thornberg, took a peek into the final days of Zandbroz in downtown Fargo. Emotions ran high and low, as Greg and Renee Dans closed a significant chapter of their lives, marking the end of an era for Zandbroz in downtown Fargo. From its humble beginnings in 1991, the store grew into a beloved community hub filled with artisan toys, handmade jewelry, unique decor, and, of course, books. Despite initial challenges and lean years, Greg and Renee's passionate and creativity transformed Zandbroz into a cornerstone of the revitalized downtown. As they prepare for retirement, the Danses reflect on their journey and express hope for the store's next chapter, ensuring that Zandbroz's legacy of warmth and creativity endures. Like the weather in early June in North Dakota, emotions were high. Renee and I did not realize how many people cared about us. And low, and everywhere in between, I keep telling them, you know, I won't be in the store. Are you still going to talk to me? As Greg Dans started working on the next chapter of his life. Oh, where would I put the ladder like us? He was clearing out what remained of Zandbroz variety, a store that helped set the tone for what downtown Fargo is today. With its boutique hotels, yoga studios, art shops, farmers market, ice skating rink, high-end imported goods store, even a James Beard Award-nominated chef running one of its many restaurants, it's a far cry from the downtown that existed when Zandbroz first opened. All the buyers were here, flame out tight or back door. They were awful. It was less than ideal for a pair of 30-somethings raising young kids to open a bookstore they lived above. Back then, the bars closed up, midnight at one, and all the Harley boys would come out of the bar and brrr, brrr, brrr. And yet, that's precisely what Greg and Renee Dans did in 1991. They bought the old ladies' building from the Callahan family and set up shop. It's over 8,000 square feet of retail space. Over time, they filled the space with artisan toys, sassy and thoughtful cards, handmade jewelry, unique decor, live events, and books, books, books, and more books. I just thought it'd be more fun to do something more creative like Zandbroz. Greg Dans and his brother Jeff are the bros in Zandbroz. Zand is Dans spelled backwards, and just like their name, they kind of stumbled backwards into creating something far bigger than either imagined. They weren't entirely sure what they wanted. More like, they just knew what they didn't want. We actually worked for my dad. He ran a dairy processing plant. He wanted to retire and wanted to know if we wanted to take it over. And we said no, we don't want to be in the milk business, so we bought an old building in Sioux Falls and fixed it up. And then we decided we needed two stores, so we could both make 11. Why didn't you want to go into the milk business? Milk isn't very sexy. They had some awfully lean years. There were a lot of weeks Jeff and I didn't get paid because we'd pay our help first and we would hold our checks till we could afford to cash them. But yeah, the first 10 years were really hard. It was we didn't make any money. Their passion kept them going. Our goal was to have a job that we were excited to go to work every day. But don't let the bros in Zambros lead you astray. There was a distinctly feminine force at work. In the shape of a pixie-haired sprite named Renee, she is the kind of woman who is always making and infusing the world with her art. And it's made out of stuff most of us would throw away. She's always running around collecting scraps of fabric, pieces of cardboard, bits of moss, dry sticks, or this pile of molds used for making shoes. Renee has always preferred heavy rusty metal stuff. So we have lots of that. That's not a commentary on you, is it? No, no, no. We have a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, it's like that because I have my stuff and he has his stuff and he doesn't have to say what do you want that for? I'd say it anyway. Guys like Greg, her crabby husband, put their noses down and work. Not afraid to shovel all the snow, lift and tote, 12 hours a day, 10 hours a day. He's the structure. I have no artistic talents. To Renee is wild. He is the creative genius of the store. She gets up in the morning and starts making stuff and she's just wired that way. Everything is, is Renee. She's pretty phenomenal. I didn't think we were doing anything special. We were just trying to have a place we liked and that we enjoyed coming to. Over the past 33 years, special hardly seems adequate for what they created. And I ugly cry every time I'm here because the store has meant so much and Greg is, oh, he's a wonderful, wonderful guy. I want him to have a very, very happy retirement. Darcy Saylor came in to return an item after she learned in all the store's years. It's one of a handful of things Greg ever regretted selling. It's an odd fella's bell and he always said that when he rang it, he felt like everything was right with the world. Doesn't that sound so pretty? Oh my goodness. Thank you very much. You made my day. My whole week, I'm not going to cry. I've been crying so much. My tear ducts are on revolt. I feel better. I will need this over the next month. For Darcy, it was a delightful shopping experience and a place to explore ideas. For poet Jamie Parsley, the store closing hits on an entirely different level. I was here when it opened for a aspiring poet. This was the place where I was allowed to be who I was. I was celebrated as a poet here. Do you remember your first reading? Do you remember what you read? Oh, I do. I do. Yes, there were probably a handful of people and I was so nervous. I was so nervous. But this was the place where I felt really safe and I could do that. I could be nervous and share poems that were probably not so great and that I would look back on now and go, why was I reading those poems? But at the time it was like magic. I felt this was the right thing I was doing with my life and because I was being affirmed here and I was being encouraged to continue on. Nothing is going to replace that in my life. And while nothing could quite replace the zanbros we know and love today, Greg for his part is hopeful that something and some one will come and write the next chapter of this space that he called home for 33 years. Levy's was here for over 50 years. We were here for 33. That's 88 years of really dynamic stories in this space. 33 years later people still remember Levy's. I want the next people who come in here to build a new tradition and that 30 years from now, when they retire people will miss the hell out of them just like they did Levy's, just like they did us. If that happens, it's beautiful. While Greg and Renee spend their days writing their next chapter together. Renee's more of a, she likes to have a life plan. Me, I'm very, let's do this and then when we're done with that, we'll do that. So my whole mantra has been, okay, we've decided to close the store, let's put everything into closing it just like we did to opening it. And then when we're done, then we'll figure out what's next. We have lots of time. I got a woman I love. She's crazy and paints like God. She's got a playground sense of justice. She won't take us. I got a tattoo with her name right through my soul. I think everything she touches turns to go. Stuff that works. Stuff that holds up. The kind of stuff you don't hang on the wall. Stuff that's real. Stuff you feel. The kind of stuff you reach for when you fall. Stuff that works. This is Dakota Datebook for June 26th. The Homestead Act of 1862 opened the American West to settlement. Newcomers could claim 160 acres after living on it for five years, paying only a small fee for the land. Along with attracting settlers, the promise of nearly free land attracted speculators, who gobbled up large tracts of land and then sold it at an inflated price. Scammers also arrived on the frontier, with a variety of schemes to cheat settlers out of their land. In one such example, Ward County farmer Frederick Nernberger was accused of scamming several Ohio acquaintances out of their land. Nernberger was a civil war veteran. In 1903, he visited his old home in Ohio to see family and friends. The government contended that Nernberger had concocted a scheme to claim a large amount of land by convincing old comrades and widows of veterans to file land claims in North Dakota. He would pay their expenses and filing fees and they would sign the land over to him once their claims were complete. Some of his recruits never made final proof. Others did and transferred their claims to Nernberger as planned. On this date, in 1905, Nernberger was on trial, facing 13 charges of fraud. The contracts signed by the veterans and widows were entered into evidence. The contracts clearly stated that once their claims were proven up, they would sign the land over to Nernberger. A romance between Nernberger and one of the widows and their subsequent marriage only increased public interest in the case. Some of the Ohio settlers accused Nernberger of cheating them. They said they came to North Dakota to build new homes and did not understand that they would be required to give Nernberger the land. He was found guilty and faced a prison sentence and a hefty fine, but he appealed the verdict and was granted a new trial. The case dragged on. There was speculation that the defense was counting on Nernberger to die before the case was heard, but it never came to that. In the end, with little fanfare and no explanation, the government dropped the case and Nernberger faded from the headlines. Today's Dakota Datebook written by Dr. Carol Butcher. I'm Ann Alquist. Dakota Datebook is produced in cooperation with the State Historical Society of North Dakota, with funding by Humanities North Dakota. North Dakota's largest lifelong learning community. North Dakota Council on the Arts annual grant application season is now open, offering a variety of funding opportunities and training programs for both artists and organizations. North Dakota Council on the Arts is committed to honoring North Dakota's cultural traditions and growing the arts across the states. More information on grants and application deadlines can be found online at arts.nd.gov/grants. And that's a wrap for today's Main Street. Thank you for the privilege of your time. Thursday on the show, Dave Thompson and I will review this week's news. Madeline and Ashley Thornberg will discuss the movie "The Bike Riders" and we'll hear about the event anything but typical that celebrates neurodivergence. We look forward to joining you again tomorrow on Main Street. [Music]