Radio Miraya
2787: NationWide: World Heritage Listing Process for South Sudan's Migration Landscape
(upbeat music) - Nationwide, we bring you latest current issues, discussions and information. Nationwide, I'm Radio Miraia. - Hello, good evening to you listening to Nationwide. And my name is Sani Martin. We are coming to you live from Juba this evening. Today we are going to be looking at the listing process for South Sudan's migration landscape for them to join the world heritage. That's what we are going to be discussing right this evening and our lines will be open to you where you can call on 091-2079 or 091-206950. Or you can send us your question to our SMS number 091-210-77141. UNESCO is currently conducting a consultation process for a world heritage listing for South Sudan in Burma, Badingalo landscape. The consultation are taking place here in Juba at the headquarters and it aims at developing an action plan and roadmap for the nomination. Since South Sudan's ratification of the UNESCO World Heritage Convention in March 2016, UNESCO has been working closely with the government of South Sudan to support the development of this tentative list of potential world heritage site in the country. So, is South Sudan anywhere closer to finalizing its world heritage tentative list or the final list? These are some of the questions we are going to be putting to my three guests here in the studio. As we will be hearing more from them, I am joined in the studio by Bechu Thomas who is the national program officer for culture and in UNESCO, good evening and welcome to Red Mirai. - Thank you, Saneek, good evening. And also I have two consultants who joined Simurai here in the studio this evening. We have Pascal, Tora Vinga and Zulu, John, your almost welcome Pascal and John. - Good evening. Thank you so much for coming us. - Thank you so much, good evening. - Okay, first of all, let's begin with Bechu. This consultation happening here in Juba could you explain more about it to our listeners? - Thank you very much, Saneen, for this opportunity. We are grateful that we are able to reach to our public regarding these processes. As South Sudan rectified the 1972 Convention and it went further to enlist three sites into the tentative list of UNESCO, that is Boma Badingaro, my greater landscape and the suit with land and then Zebra's level of site. With this consultation today, we wanted to go step by step to ensure that at least that one is represented for South Sudan. So these consultations should have happened almost say 50 years ago. The World Heritage Convention is now over 50 years. So our site, the Boma Badingaro, my greater landscape has one of the richest one. So the consultants are here to talk to the stakeholders in South Sudan because it is important that it is in the property of the people that they need to talk to them. So they are here to talk to the people and see what is the way forward, what is the plan, what is the road map that they could achieve to have a World Heritage for South Sudan. - Okay, before we hear from John and Pascal, but we're still with you, could you explain in a simple time to our listeners when you talk about World Heritage site? What does it mean for South Sudan? What are we talking about here? - Many of us talk about South Sudan has a very rich culture, South Sudan has a very rich heritage. When we talk about heritage, we mean, okay, it is in our own simple term is that it could be the intangible that we cannot touch is about the skill that we use to pass the knowledge of this heritage to our future one. But again, they say the tangible ones are things like national parks, things like mountain, things like building that has stayed for visit. But what is important to make it heritage is that it has a character that is so outstanding, outstanding that it's not only for South Sudan. - Very unique. - Very unique. It has a very unique characteristic that globally could be organized as one, that someone, even our South Sudan could talk about it. - Okay, here's a consultant Pascal. Let's begin with you. What is happening so far? Who are you meeting? And what do you want to achieve? And how long is a consultation? - Thank you very much. Our assignment in South Sudan, we are working with UNESCO. We have few aspects on the implementation of the 1972 Convention on the Protection of Cultural and Natural Heritage. And this mission, we are meeting stakeholders from government departments, institutions that are responsible for managing cultural and natural heritage, representatives of communities, NGOs. So implementing UNESCO conventions, including this one, the 1972, it's an inclusive process where we have to consult and engage all stakeholders that are interested and affected by the process of the listing. So the outcome that we're looking for is specific for Boma National Park, which is already on the tentative list of the state part of South Sudan. We would like to push this process towards ensuring that South Sudan has the first word heritage site recorded. South Sudan is one of the 11 countries in Africa that don't have a word heritage site in their national boundaries. So this is a priority for UNESCO, and this is a priority for Africa, and this is a priority for the whole world. So that's what we are doing. We are meeting inclusive stakeholders in the process to make sure that everybody understands what is going to happen, how it's going to happen from the beginning, and we carry the process forward. Thank you. - Okay, and Zulu, if South Sudan happens to come out from the 11 countries in Africa, which is not a registered, what significant benefit do South Sudan stand to gain? - Thank you so much for the question. We need to realize that the word heritage sites, first and foremost, it's a pride of the people. It's where now the identity of the people of South Sudan will be more or less like I/A uplifted up. It's where now we are showing the world to say, "Look, this is what we have as a people of Sudan." Now, this range is actually from the different cultures, practices of belief systems, and also looking at the lifestyle of the people. And then on again, we can now add these natural fabrics, such as the wildlife, the mountains, the rivers. And so this is actually what we are trying to fly up there. And so this is actually what is embedded in the fabric of the world heritage site. And so out there, what people would like to see is how do people of Sudan, will cherish what they have in them, which is actually critical. And so there are benefits, which will be there, is that there are quite a lot of benefits, but one of them is that of international recognition. It's where people will be able to see. Secondly, it's not of local. People will be able to, actually, the locals themselves will be able to see and take pride in what they have. And certainly, I should mention, is that also, generally, as a region as well, we'll be able to benefit because we'll be able to say, this is what Africa now has, as one of those sites that is enlisted on the water heritage list. - And what is required of South Sudan right now as UNESCO is trying to support this process of listing. What is required from South Sudan? Maybe, but you can come in. - Okay, thank you very much. Putting a site into the tentative list is not the end. It requires a process to move it further and to become a role heritage site. One important component that requires from South Sudan is, first of all, to consult with the people who are going to be the beneficiaries of this site and say the communities. When we talk about BOMA, but being a little migratory landscape, we know this site, these parks are where the communities, inside the parks and outside the parks, for this site to become to be nominated as a water heritage, and then we must talk to the community. It's not UNESCO, but I think the stakeholders who are, if you're heading this list, say the Ministry of Wildlife, in the face ministry, like the Ministry of Culture, be able to go down. The stakeholders like communities are very important to be talked to. And for this site to be, to be really on the list, again, it requires legal protection. The legal protection, it requires that that this site is protected. I just wanted to open this, that between the two sites, there is a false migratory corridor. This site is not protected. It requires that it requires protection status. The bound that is between these areas, these two national parks has to be, definitely has to be defined for that matter. And there are things that requires that, especially, let's say, both from the perspective of the national authority, and also what requires that the community must know if this site is to become able to get this site. And how long will it take South Sudan to be a final, having that kind of capacity to be listed, and then move out from among the 11 countries in Africa, which are not listed. How long is the process? As being identified among the 11 countries, not having a whole heritage list, from our consultation with them, we have already commitment from the national authorities to move this process as soon as possible. Definitely, we are looking forward. There's not a definite, but I think it will depend on that all this requirement, that I mentioned, I'm sure some other requirements that Pascal and John will mention, this has to be put in place. So it depends on the speed that we wanted to take. Quickly, if, okay, let's say the site has to be gazetteed, we need a gazette from the site, the government need to quickly say, okay, the bar, this area has been gazetteed, that is one element. We should say the bills in the parliament, this bill is already being passed. We also wanted to ensure that these two national parks, there are other stakeholders within the national government. Let's say Boma, Baddingalo, and then you have Minister of Wildlife, because of the animal migration. We have the Minister of Culture, definitely there might be the community who resides there, there might be some important site, that culture that is important for this community. We also, we need to think about the Minister of Environment, that because this is within the environment who are opportunistic holders. We need to talk about the Ministry of Road, the Ministry of Transport, that they are all part of this process. The Ministry, just in case if at all the Ministry of Mining, what about we say that a mine is being discovered in that place? So we need to have this thing, because this has to be, at least the idea, this consultation is to bring all this institution together, to dialogue, to dialogue, and this will help the process move forward. As I said from the discussion that we had with the National Security, the Special Ministry of Wildlife, we see a very high level of commitment to ensure that this process happens. OK, and let's find out more from Pascal. From where you have stopped, what exactly is required from the government has the consultant, because you are the expert, that's why you have been hired to come and do this consultation here in Dubai. So, what is required? What will it take this country to meet all the requirements needed? Thank you, sir. Thank you very much for that question. What is required for having a site inscribed on the order judge list is actually outlined in the operational guidelines of when the implementation of the 1970s to convention. So, UNESCO is a process that has to be followed by the state pattern. And I think Thomas Elion highlighted the issue of the tentative listing. So, the site is already on the tentative listing, which is a positive thing, because you cannot nominate a site that is not on the tentative list. So, from there, we then need to develop the nomination file, because the nomination file is what you submit to UNESCO for consideration by the World Heritage Committee. And that nomination file is got two important documents that you have to submit. The first one is called the nomination dossier, which is the document that explains and justifies what is outstanding about the bomber and the body, but in yellow, a migratory landscape. And in that document, we also justify the boundaries, why we have features in those boundaries. And we have also to demonstrate that there is protection and management. By protection, I'm going back to issues raised by Thomas that you have to have legal, formal legal protection. And there's that area that he mentioned between the two parks, which needs to be considered by the state pattern. And then the second document is what we call the management plan. And the management plan is like your strategic vision or a strategic document for this registration, where you say, "This is the resource that I have." And the resource is located here. And these are issues or challenges that we are seeing. And this is how we are going to mitigate the challenges. And we expect that in five years we would have achieved one, two, three, four, five. But in that management plan document, what is also important, I'm referring to what John Elia once explained, we have to address the issue of socioeconomic benefits that are occurring to communities. Because you cannot have a whole heritage site or a heritage site that is not benefiting communities. So we have to look at innovative ways, adaptive ways, creative ways of involving and creating these benefits. So those two documents, when they are submitted to UNESCO, they then get evaluated by what are called advisory bodies from UNESCO. And we have this advisory bodies is ECOMOS, which is the international council of monuments and sites. It evaluates cultural properties. And then we have IUCN, which is the international union of conservation for nature. It evaluates natural properties. So they will have to come down yet, south of that? Yes. So the evaluation process has got three levels. First one, one, you submit. Then the advisory bodies, they conduct these two documents. Yeah, these two documents. They then conduct what we call a desktop analysis, where they give those documents to experts in that area. To say we have received these documents, can you assess what is there, what is missing? And then from that desktop evaluation, they then create terms of reference for field missions that will come on the ground. So once this site that we are talking about, the microhedral landscape is submitted, the state part of South Sudan has to prepare for a field mission by experts from UNESCO and advisory bodies, who are coming to verify everything that we have put in that document. So which means everything that we put in any of these two documents, it has to be accurate, it has to be factual, and verified, and verified. So we cannot afford to mislead UNESCO. So where are we now with all this process? Where are we in the country right now? Where we are now, we are moving the state party from the tentative list to developing these two documents. So the country has not even started developing the management plan documents. Not yet. And this is the purpose of the consultation to say, how do we start this process? Who is going to work to develop these two documents that are required? And which one should we start with and why? And what are the resources that are required? Because for us to do this, we need financial resources, because there's going to be a research. Elia, when you ask it about how long is it going to take? Yes, I was going to ask again. Yes, how long is going to take is dependent on the following factors. First of all, we need to do research to close the gaps of information where we don't know something. Or away, for example, now, which is quite a positive thing, and we understand and we have read in the media that is excellence in the president of this, or South Sudan, launched the results of the survey not long ago, not long ago. That's a positive thing, because now that's a research. You can, the experts can use those for final years to control user, to say this is what we have and these are the quantum. So that's a research, we need to do research for the nomination process and for the management plan, and that requires the resources. And it also requires commitment from the people that are going to be developing these documents. It's not something that you can say, "I do once a day." It has to be their lifestyle for the next week. In this scenario, who are these people? The government, the expert, the UNESCO. Is the state part of South Sudan? Because remember, the convention is ratified by the state party. Not consultants. That is South Sudan. Yes, that's South Sudan. So it's up to the government of South Sudan, then to put a team that will be developing these two documents. And we know that there's arrangements for the management of these facts. So there's a management authority. And it is our understanding that that authority will be leading this process. But in the process also, I would like to say something that is at the heart of my vision for Africa. I believe in developing and living capacity in South Sudan, which means we must have national citizens of this country also participating in the process as part of transferring skills. Because at the end of the day, we don't just list the site, but we also have to manage it. And the site cannot be managed by consultants like us. It's South Sudanese. So UNESCO is really looking at ways of making sure that national citizens are going to be involved in this process. So you ask it a very challenging question where you say, "How long is this process going to take?" From our consultations which is still tentative, everybody's committed to pushing this project as quickly as possible. And there's a tentative thinking that maybe if we work very hard, we should be able to submit the nomination file by 2027. 2027? Yes. But that requires financial resourcing. That requires team is not accommodated. And that requires engaging communities right from the beginning so that they are part and parcel of the whole process. We cannot nominate this landscape without involving communities. And that requires also political will from the relevant government departments to support the processes. And for example, the issue that Thomas mentioned, the legal projection, that requires political will to fast-track all those things. So at the moment, tentatively, 2027 is the target date. But I must say something. If we don't submit by, if the state part of Satsut and doesn't submit by 2027, it means we are only going to do it after 2027 because there's a new process or a new step in the process of inscribing a site that is going to be effective from 2027. So the earlier, the earlier, the better. OK, so that we don't take that additional step and that increases the time. All right. Yes, Zulu from your expertise, given those countries that have so far managed to be enlisted in these world heritage sites around the world, what can Southland learn from them and make sure that they meet the deadline before crossing, before beginning a new chapter, like Pascal Abbasid. Thank you so much for that question. So first and foremost, what the country of South Sudan can learn is like the last point which Pascal mentioned, community engagement. It's a very critical point where now South Sudan should be able to engage the community because this site belongs to the community. Yeah. It's for the community. And so it's there, Marcelli, who should be able to fly the flag of South Sudan up high there. So they play a very crucial role. Very crucial role because what will happen is, as Pascal mentioned, when now the evaluators come from UNESCO, they come down here. They may even be able to pass by pass the offices here of Thomas and go right up there to the community and ask them to say, we received your nomination. Do you want this site to become the world heritage site? Do you know what the world heritage site status means? And so if the community says, yes, we know and we have been informed and we are happy that this site should become the world heritage site, then that would be a plus. If I could say, but in many instances and some of the sites that have been able to evaluate, you find that the communities don't even know. Why? Because it's been done from top down. And the communities don't know anything. So such becomes problematic. And you find in such cases UNESCO for designs and say, no, not until the community itself buys in and pushes this, they should be able to be in the driver's seat actually to push this process. So in this scenario, what is it required from South Sudan right now? So what is required from South Sudan? Starting from government, NGOs, UNESCO itself and other NGOs, it's a matter of actually creating a very, very active program, rigorous program. Awareness. Awareness. Going into the communities, teaching them and telling them the benefits, what does it mean to be world heritage site? And also making them realize what they have. They may be there, but they don't know what they have and how pressure it is. Secondly, making them know the benefits of what it means to be on the world heritage site, of which its benefits are so in numerous. Because you're talking about socio-economic benefits, you're talking about identity like I mentioned earlier and so on and so forth. And so once the community has their buy-in, you'll find that everyone actually will rally. It will be very easy for government, it will be very easy for the NGOs, and it will be also easy for other donors to come in and also put in financial resources because they are seeing how the community itself wants its property to be declared as a world heritage site. The common language people will understand from you very quickly is will it be a source of attraction to tourists? That's a simple language you could use. Yes. Actually, there is what is known as world heritage tourism. These are people who have got a bucket list where they want to visit different types of world heritage sites around the world. And what we have in South Sudan, which is very unique, is the migration. And it's actually about the beautiful animals that you have here, which are literally unique and they are not found anywhere in the world. And so people will rally to just come and see these animals. And when they come, they pay money, they'll pay money. And definitely now, when you talk about the line of beneficiation, you're talking about one, they'll pay visa to come here, they'll pay the airlines of which now Sudan will also benefit South Sudan. Once they land here, they have to pay visa, they have to get in a taxi of which the local people will benefit. Or they have to go and get lodged in a hotel of which they have to go and benefit. They'll go in the streets, they'll buy a local food in the streets. And then they'll book now to say, "No, want to go to the park," of which they'll also book and they'll need accommodation. And so in all these, you find that there's employment opportunities. A lot of people will be employed, a lot of youths, they'll be employed. And also it's an opportunity whereby now these youths will be trained in various fields. It could be tourism and management, it could be hospitality, it could be food and beverage. And all these, they'll be trained in them. Including interpretation, because you need the site manager. So infrastructure development, you to be there with, because you need a kind of ticket office, the information centre, and all those we need people to be employed in, and they have to be trained. So it's a potential activities that can be benefiting the people of South Sudan. And let's find out a little from Thomas. This question should have been answered by the government, but since you interact so much with the officials here in South Sudan, given what Zulu and Pascal have said, that much is required from the government right now, there's too much in the government's entry. So from your interaction with them, do you think it's possible? And you are here in Cuba. Is it possible to meet the deadline of 2007, given the enormous challenges the country is going through right now? We need money. OK, thank you very much for this question. From our discussion, this is not the first conversation that we are having with the government. A year ago, we were able to bring stakeholders together to discuss this issue. I must say, there is a lot of apparatus that this side must become a word here to side. With that level of commitment from that kind of discussion and from just this recent meeting, hopefully that will mean it took 20-27 deadline. That is the hope. OK. Yes. If you have just joined us right now, you're listening to Nationwide. My name is Ani Martin, and I have three guests with me here in the studio. I have two consultants who are here consulting with the government officials and other partners in Cuba. We have Zulu-John and Pascal Darrow-Vinga. And I also have Bechu Thomas, who is a national program officer for UNESCO, and our lines are now open. You can call or you can also send us your questions or SMS number 091-2177-141. And you can also call us on 092-9686-2977. Hello. Hello. Give me that. Hello. Yes. Your name and what are you calling from? I connected with the company that you are here in Cuba. OK. I can go ahead. Yeah. I did that. I did it in the studio. Yes. Of course, our people always need something that needs a lot of support and have to hide the input. And this is what goes for the teaching in the country. Because teaching is a good thing by the way it benefits the people in the country. I don't think our people are willing to do anything. So my question is, after this one success, what will the community achieve in the event that will the community get? So this is my question. OK. Hello. Hello. Yes. Your name? Yes. Good evening. Good evening, D. and good evening to the girls who are there in the studio. Your name and what are you calling from? So, folks from the hamburgers and? OK. Go ahead from our will. Yeah. Amber, glad to lead you to go on here. Mm-hmm. Amber, I think you had good news from the girls who are there in the studio with you. I appreciate the topic that we are discussing on now. [SPEAKING SPANISH] [SPEAKING SPANISH] [SPEAKING SPANISH] [SPEAKING SPANISH] [SPEAKING SPANISH] OK. [SPEAKING SPANISH] OK. [SPEAKING SPANISH] We have some other questions coming in here by our SMS number. This one is coming from Dennis in Cuba. And Dennis says, thanks to the two consultants in the studio plus this program officer of UNESCO, he won't find out from you what will be the crucial role of people living around these sites to protect and maintain security around the area given our challenges in South Sudan as from Dennis. Another question here is coming from Dan in Cuba. And Dan says, what were the criteria used to select these two sites and are there in other potential sites in the country that can be also included in the list? Why only two? [SPEAKING SPANISH] Yes, maybe anyone can take this. Thank you so much. I would like to start with the first speaker. Yes. Who asked you the question around what will community get? Yeah, the benefit. The benefits? That's my chance. Yes. And also link it with the question that came through the SMS. Mm-hmm. What is the role of people in the community around there? Yes. There's one thing that is often underestimated about local communities. Local communities are creators of heritage. They create the heritage. And they have a long history of interacting with nature and their environment. And that knowledge is embodied in their cultural traditions and practices. So when you look at these two landscapes that are proposed for inscription, you cannot discuss their future and their conservation without tapping into the knowledge that these local communities hold. They know what is happening with the ecosystem. They know which plant is of medicinal value. They know which plant is edible and which one is not edible. So when we look at the benefits, we don't just look at the monetary gains. But we are also looking at what is it that the community is going to bring into the sustainable conservation of the landscape. So I believe that with the whole heritage listing and by engaging the local communities and the researching on their indigenous knowledge and traditional knowledge on the landscape, they will contribute to the conservation of the property. And for example, if you look at the moment, we already have communities that are living within and around the parks and they are actually already contributing to this conservation. So that's one benefit that is very important because as part of what the heritage listing, one of the expectations is that the state party, together with the stakeholders and the local communities, they will be able to retain the outstanding universal value of the property. And you cannot do that without the communities. So what we expect is that the state party is going to have governance structures that include communities in the decision-making processes of conservation in these properties. So there's that element and I would like my colleague to talk about the socioeconomic benefits and the rest. And also what were the criterias used to come up with these two and other potential areas in the country that can be also identified and listed. So when it comes to the criteria, earlier on I spoke about the operational guidelines on the implementation of the 1972 Convention. The Convention and the operational guidelines provide the criteria which is supposed to be met by any proposed site so that it can be considered as illustrating outstanding universal value. And outstanding universal value like what you said earlier when we're having a discussion with Thomas. It's something that is exceptional and something that is rare, something that is universal. To the extent that when one sees it, they cannot think of another place. For example, if you look at Victoria Foso, the heritage site shared by Zimbabwe and Zambia, even if you have never been there, you just see a video. You say, "Ah, I should go there." This is exceptional, I should go there. So this is the criteria. That criteria is from 1 to 10. So you need to interrogate the criteria and see which criteria applies to your site. So for the tentative listing process done by South Sudan, they looked at this criteria from 1 to 10 and said, "We have this site. Which criteria can best justify its placement on the water heritage list?" So the tentative list is actually informed by that criteria. So what I would want to emphasize is that a site like Boma, it is called the migratory landscape. But it doesn't mean that there are no other values within the same landscape. They could be archaeological sites, they could be cultural sites, they could be sites associated with the intangible practices of the local community. But they are not exceptional, they are not outstanding, but it doesn't mean that they are not protected. So for a listing, we are looking for that thing that is exceptional, that is universal. And at management level, we then look at all the values and say, "How do we manage the landscape in this totality?" There are other sites in South Sudan and I think UNESCO is really working together with wildlife and the culture. They have to go through this process of sieving to find out what is actually outstanding. And look at it very critically. Let me just start from where Pascal has just ended. It's important actually, I like the question, but the colour has to understand that it's a long process. Secondly, it's a costly process. Thirdly, this current site that we are looking at, by myself and the other side, it's a low hanging fruit. It's a low hanging fruit. In the sense that already the Minister of Wildlife and Tourism, they have already done extensive, they have been doing research and they have got actually records to show that they have been managing this site for some time. And so already that is critical, it's something that is already in our hands. It's like a bed that we're holding in our hands, so it's very easy for us. And by that hand, it's better than that in the air. Exactly. And so despite that, we know that the other sites, which are very beautiful and unique in South Sudan. And so it's one step at a time. And so once this is actually done, it's easy actually now because capacity will be built in South Sudan. And so people will be able now to nominate and say, OK, fine. This has got the outstanding universal value. And so why not also nominate this to be on the World Heritage List? OK. Thomas, we are almost coming to the end of our discussion. After this is a consultation happening here in Cuba. What next? OK, for us, what next is that the first step moving forward is to update the tentative list. We've already done consultation. Now we need to update the tentative because it's a process moving forward. If we are to meet 20, 27, then we must step up to update the tentative list so that we move that process forward. That is the first step that needs to happen. While doing this, then there should be other processes going on especially. We don't want to take until 2020, '60, '27 to consult the community. No, it must start now. Then also engage with stakeholders being at the national government especially in regards to the legal protection. In regards to, let's say, giving status to the corridor. In regards to the management plan, it has to happen. This is a step moving forward. Definitely, all this will help us push it moving forward. OK. And finally, Pascal, people would like to see the caller who talked in Arabic is not optimistic because so many promises has been made in this country. There is no result. People are still doubting. There are so many doubting promises as by the Bible. He refers to the Bible anyway. So now, people want to see action happening. So after your consultation, then what is going on? To whom are you going to hand out by a report to UNESCO, to the government and to who? And what should happen after this consultation is done for the state? That is the South government to meet the deadline of 20.7. Thank you so much from the Inter-Ministerial consultation that we did yesterday. I can assure the caller that there is commitment from the government. By Inter-Ministerial, we invited different ministries because the planning and even the provision of security and infrastructure for that property is not a responsibility of one government entity. So I think that Inter-Ministerial conversation was quite useful. After the mission, we are drafting a detailed action plan which will have steps of implementation from step one to step z so that there is guidance to the state party. And this report is submitted to UNESCO in the state party via UNESCO. Thank you so much. Join in 30 seconds, your concluding remarks in 30 seconds. I have so much hope and trust that in other communities will be able to buy in into this. And this will only be done when there is a joint effort from the ministry and all stakeholders, including NGOs in order to assist the community on the benefits and the importance of declaring this site as a world heritage site. Thank you so much, Zulu, Joan, Pascal, Tarawinga and Bechu. Thomas from UNESCO Program Officer. Thank you very much for coming and the news is coming next. At the top of the hour, in English, at 6 p.m. join my colleague, David Lukan, for the second hour of nationwide. My name is Sani Martin, stay tuned.