Test Match Special

England v West Indies: Late wickets leave test in the balance

Jonathan Agnew is alongside Vic Marks, Steven Finn, and Fazeer Mohammed for reaction to the first day’s play at Edgbaston where thirteen wickets fell.

England bowler Chris Woakes says he really found his groove bowling at Edgbaston, and the West Indies’ allrounder Jason Holder looks back on “really good” day for the visitors.

Plus, a full interview with ECB Chief Executive Richard Gould. He plays down recent reports of England’s white ball head coach Matthew Mott losing his job, as well as discussing the future of The Hundred and England’s role as a nation championing Test cricket.

Duration:: 49m
Broadcast on:: 26 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my 100th mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no. No. No. Honestly, when I started this, I thought I'd only have to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited to premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at midmobile.com/switch, whatever you're ready. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes of CDTales. Your wedding will be one of the happiest days of your life and Blue Nile can help you celebrate it with a gift that will last a lifetime. Whether you're looking for wedding bands, a gift for your partner, or an unforgettable thank you to your bridesmaids, Blue Nile offers a wide assortment of jewelry of the highest quality at the best price, plus expert guidance to ensure you find the perfect piece. Experience the convenience of shopping Blue Nile, the original online jeweler since 1999 at bluenile.com. Bluenile.com. BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast from Edge Paston, where England will be pleased with their performance with the ball, but not so much with their performance. But not so much with the bat. As the leg slip in, Seals balls to wood and wood edges at his core, caught low down at second slip by holder. What a catch that was. Really fine catch, low down. He's such a good slip out Jason Holder. He took one good one to get rid of Croy to his left. That was low down. It was travelling and England lost three wickets, including the night watchman. And they are 31, 4, 3. Seals picks up his second. To come with him from Chris Wokes, softy contributed with three wickets will have analysis of the days played from Vic Mark, Steem Finn and Fazia Muhammad. And the ECB Chief Executive Richard Gould gives us the latest on the white ball management structure with reports that Matthew Mott could soon lose his role as England's white ball coach. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. It's been a fascinating first day. It was a close with England 38 for three. So 244 runs behind. After West Indies, a bowl have a 282, Brath 861, nice 59 from Holder. De Silva 49, they put 109 on together during the afternoon. The pitch looked pretty flat at that stage. Atkinson took four wickets, three for Chris Wokes, couple for Wood and one for Chobashia. And then, well, we thought that's his final familiar path, this gaming will get a huge score tomorrow and then they'll bowl West Indies out. But they've lost three wickets and they were playing very positively, inevitably, Crawley out for 18. It was very well taken by Holder, that second slip, Duckett, bowl by Joseph for three. And then the night watchman on the night, Hawk Wood was beautifully taken by Holder for a duck off-seals. So Pope and Rooter together, 38 for three, 244 runs behind. Steven Finn has now joined Vic Marks and eyes. Look back at that. Well, we weren't expecting that. No, it was a nice little passage of play, wasn't it? I love seeing fast bowlers steaming in. With the batters under pressure, there's just a little bit of bounce there, isn't it? I thought we felt it was hard underneath this morning and there is grass on the pitch, but it's brown, dead, fatchy grass. But that grass sometimes does give it that extra bit of kick, which will keep you interested if you're a fast bowler and you've got a brand new ball in your hand. And the West Indies, yeah, it would have been easy for them to come out and chase wickets. I felt as though they stepped to their guns relatively well there in the face of some aggressive batting and they deserved their three wickets in the game's wide open. Yeah, I thought they'd ball the better length, actually. They'd put that slightly fuller length than England did. Yeah, the only thing is when they come around the wicket and they're trying to swing the ball back into the left-handed docket, you're looking for the perfect delivery there to get him out. It feels like a more wise option to be trying to wobble, seeing that and get it to nip away, like Stuart Broad used to so beautifully. But that's part of their experience and learning of being here in England, but they got those three wickets. And yeah, if they break this partnership tomorrow, the cat is well and truly amongst the pigeons. Yeah, it did feel a bit like, here we go again. It's easy to sit and watch a series, Victor, and they can be familiar, you know, West Indies bowled out. They're going to get a big lead, stick them back in again, bowl them out, and that'll be that. But actually, this has now opened up a really intriguing data. Well, it has. I mean, the oddity is that the West Indies, for the first hour, I mean, they're 50 for no wicket in just over an hour. Brathwaite scoring three feet. The sixth for none, they weren't. Yeah, 76 for none. And traditionally, you think, well, that's the hard work done. I'm not sure Steve will tell us a bit more of it. That Duke ball, it doesn't really start swinging until a bit of lacquers come off. And maybe it's a bit easier in the first six or seven overs, isn't it? Is that right? Do you think that? I hear people say that now. Yeah, it seems to be following that trend, but the weird thing that I can't work out is that the ball got changed about 50 times in the previous test with Trent Bridget felt. But then this one, I don't think they changed it at all in the West Indies innings. And then this one has offered a little bit of movement there with the brand new ball, but certainly there was there was swing all the way throughout the day. And because of that grass on the pitch, the ball carried when it was nicked. Yeah, I mean, the spell that I noticed, I thought it was Wokes's best spell was his last one where he got the silver having bold all those in swingers and any bold one. And they were moving enough to keep him really interested. That hadn't felt to be the case in his opening spell so much, and maybe not even in his second spell, but he was getting significant. Even I saw it from this distance. He was getting in the air movement. Suddenly the game was alive again. You could see a way of getting wickets. And they didn't need to think about trying to bounce people out again. So that was an oddity. But, you know, the West Indies have squandered. Some hard work by their openers, really. Because some of those pre-lunch dismissals, you know, particularly the pool shot just before lunch, half-hearted pool shot. And they went from being having a good morning session to the '90 for three having lost three in no time. And you thought, when they lost two wickets in no time after lunch, you thought, well, England is a cakewalk, really. Good little partnership or good, you know, sensory partnership. My holder, actually, sort of rebirth as a cricket. He's become a sort of batting all-rounder, I suppose. A batting fielding all-rounder. Because he takes those catches at second slip. They're two terrific catches there. What's interesting is I thought of Trent Bridge. You know, you've got Trent Bridge for the current, but you're not there. He seemed to have fallen quite wide of the crease, and it was just battling a bit, and it wasn't getting much movement. It seems to be in a much better crease position there. So, actually, you don't need to swing the ball so much, do you? And you can see it going. I've been, I don't know if he's going to be asked that in the course of the interviews. But he just looks to be landing in a much better place on the crease. Yeah, and certainly when you're that little bit tighter, it means that the batter has to play a lot more. I think, yeah, sometimes, if you were ever to be critical of Chris Wokes, it would be when he's wide of the crease, and he's got that lovely away shape that comes out of his hand, but is a bit leaveable outside of stuff. Because that shape is so consistent, and his action is so nice to view. It's such a pretty action that it can be easy to leave, but that little bit of tightening up means that you can attack that middle and off stump as opposed to attacking fourth stump, which just makes you threatening, and he looked really threatening today. Let's talk about Mark Wood, because again, he came, he came huffing and puffing in. We've joined Chris Wokes, I think we are. Chris, are you there? Yeah, I'm here. Hello, Chris. How you doing? Yeah, I'm doing very well indeed. We're just talking about you. Actually, your ear is burning. Oh, they were a little bit. We've got a pretty action, apparently. What a beautiful action. Is that right? We were getting very technical up here. We're talking about crease positions, and you can blame me. I just thought, Trent Bridge, you seem a little bit wider of the crease than normal, but here you seem to be in a really good position to get that out soon you're going. Is that a fair comment, or is that nonsense on the commentary box? No, no, it's about right, to be honest. I think, Lord, I just struggled for a little bit of rhythm, full stop, I think. So I was searching for something and probably bawled a little bit safe, and didn't really utilise my skills as much. And then into Trent Bridge, I think there was a spell towards the back end of the day on day two where something clicked. I used the crease a little bit more. The ball started moving in the air and just tried to use my skill a little bit more. I think I've just tried to run with that, I think. And then the same here, the ball has moved a little bit in the air, so I think using your creases is obviously quite crucial, trying to get, obviously, from mid crease and out to wide as well, and then making sure that the angles are different from the batsman. Yeah, it's such a confidence thing, isn't it, swing bowling? Yeah, no, it is. It always felt like I'm a bowler for better for the gallop, so to speak. And more over and under my belt, I feel like I find more rhythm. It's certainly been the case in the series. I felt like, as I said, I struggled probably a little bit at Lord's, but then since then I feel like I've hit a bit of rhythm and found a bit of feel again, which is nice. Yeah, you've definitely done that. And is it coincidence that's coincided with slight promotion? Do we call it that crease? I mean, are you actually choosing the ball these days and you were barking instructions out there to the bowler? Are you that sort of a captain or what are you? Yeah, I don't know if I'm barking instructions, but I think naturally when you're the oldest bowler on the field, you kind of try and take a little bit more of a lead role. And obviously, you've got some younger bowlers out there, obviously Woody's experienced as well, so he's doing his job. But I suppose a little bit of a different role, so to speak, but once you get out there and you've got the ball in hand, you're effectively trying to do the same thing, which you've put the ball in the right areas more often than not. Change the batsman, try and work on their weaknesses and ball to your strengths, and I'm just trying to do that really. Yeah, but it must be nice for you, though, to have some wickets in the bag and to be bowling so confidently, in this slightly elevated, you know, I was taking a micky a bit, but in this kind of new role that you do have, you've just sort of settled into it nicely. Well, I mean, it has taken me 11 years to get the new ball, so there is that. Now, as you said, I think, yeah, I settled into it nicely, but it came with a bit of rhythm, I suppose, at Trembridge and, yeah, of course, I think you naturally feel, I wouldn't say I feel pressure because I'm an experienced player, but at the same time, you know, that you've got a job to do, and you always want wickets as a ball, don't you? You know, it's an easy job to take wickets and help the team and contribute, and it is always nice to see wickets in the wickets' column. How did you feel about two wickets all out? Was that about right? Well, I mean, I thought we'd done a really, really good job, so it felt flat out there through the middle period of the day. Obviously, we had them five down, and then there was a partnership between the silver and the holder. Obviously, both played very well, and what looked like a slow sort of surface at that point, and the ball had gone a bit soft. I think we were really pleased to bow the mate for 280. I think that was a really good effort all round. Obviously, three back-to-back test matches do take its toll eventually, so, you know, good to get them all out and obviously get back by the end of the day. But obviously, we'd have thrown up to lose three wickets tonight, but I still feel it's good surface if we can get a big partnership through the middle order. I still believe we can get a score that goes past them, hopefully, and put them in the pressure third-end. Yeah, I'm very disappointed that Mark Wood got out, because I was looking forward to seeing him inheriting Stuart Broad's role, if indeed he was. Is he Night Hawk 2, do we know? Well, I mean, going on his performance tonight and the way he played, I suppose, was more of a sophisticated role, who is looking to play the usual Night Watchman, rather than the Night Hawk of Stuart. But, yeah, look, I mean, he got a ball, he nicked off, it's fine, he did a good job up until that point. We've got a job to do tomorrow, come back, rest up, and hopefully put some big partnerships together to put a score on the board. Yeah, this is our last one, we were purring, and certainly Steve Finwiz, who's with us, purring at your de Silva dismissal, which, if you look at that replay in isolation, it looks like a horrible shot. But actually, if you look at the setup, I mean, that's what swing bowling is all about, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. You know, really pleasing wicket, really. Obviously, for a guy that was in and set as well, and they'll build a good partnership, and felt a big wicket, and, you know, it was really pleased with that one. As you said, tried to run a few back, attack the stumps a bit, and then, obviously, you know, use the away swinging, and thankfully, nicked it, but, yeah, if you look at it in isolation, it's a short wide one. Well, you know otherwise, well bold, Chris, lovely watching it, talk to you soon. Cheers, bye-bye, bye-bye. There you go, well, he's a lovely fellow, and he did bow well, and that setup, we did the Hawkeye. If you want to know what I'm talking about, look at the highlights, you can see the Hawkeye setup, and if you see that wicket in isolation, you go to a terrible shot that was. But actually, you see what was before, and the fact that there was no third man as well, just attempted him into nudging at it a bit outside. That's that confidence thing that Chris Wokes is talking about there. When you're confident as a bully, you feel as though you can play around with things like that in a test match, and you can say, right, this is how you're worrying about the other end. I would always think about it. You're either worrying about yourself, and in that first test match, at Lord's, Chris Wokes might have been thinking what my position on the crease, what's my action feeling like today, and you're worrying very much about what you're doing, and you're forgetting about the important part, which is getting the batter out. But that dismissal of De Silva was lovely. They were wobble seam deliveries, angling back into the right hand, targeting middle stump, targeting middle and leg. And then he glows that away swinger, and it starts on the same line that those balls would have started on. Then as soon as it leaves his hand, it's arcing away from the batter, and De Silva feels as though he has to play at it, because it could jag back and hit his stumps, and it ends up him just wafting at one outside. The off stump, maybe not short and wide, but Chris Wokes described it there, lovely bowling, and I love seeing that. It's interesting to watch all those split screens of him bowling at Lord's, and bowling here, because he just looked like a picture of Bowler. Yeah, and he bolled at the nursery end at Lord's a lot, because James Anderson and Gus Atkinson both bolled at the pavilion end, and the slope at Lord's, where it runs if you're running towards the pavilion from the nursery, and it slopes from right to left, and that can actually drag you wider on the crease. I found it really difficult to bowl at that end at Lord's, because I love being close to the stumps, hence why I need the stump so often for a year or so. But the nursery end drags you wider and wider, and if you're someone who likes being close, you'll be running up bowling, you'll feel as though you're getting close to the stumps, and then you'll look at your footmarks, and you'll be a good six inches to a foot further away from the stumps than you actually think you are. It's more of a subconscious thing, and if you're fighting that whilst you're trying to find your rhythm, you can feel really discombobulated, and it's no wonder that he was better for the round-out at Trent Bridge. He found that rhythm in that spell, and now he looks a million dollars. How about a show of Victor? Obviously from your neck of the woods anyway, so you'll be watching with an extra bit of interest, one for 55. I mean, an off-spinner's role on the first day of a test match, when you've got four seamers in the side is... Well, when you've got four seamers in the side, actually, it's slightly different when you win one player with three seamers. So the captain doesn't have to think, "I've got to have 20 overs of show you." So he's not actually using him as a sort of container for the seamers, in the same way that Graham Swan would very often be the man. He could have all 20 overs, and if he goes for 17 and he gets two for 17, that's great. Because he didn't have to bowl him when he could have boiled himself more. So Schoeb was being used as a sort of tempter, really, and I mean, I'm right behind Ben Stos. He's wonderful the way he gets confidence. But sometimes as an old spinner and an old, you know, curmudgeon, I'm thinking, "That was the word I was searching for." Okay, I thought it'd help you out. This Jason Holder is hitting me over mid-on, and it does not look like a risky shot to me. I want to stop him doing that and perhaps have a short mid-on to block the little dude, and say, "It's hit me somewhere else." But it doesn't happen like that. I remember talking to Jack Leach from Pakistan when we were out there, and they had that little left-hander who kept hitting Jack Leach over mid-week. And I said, I bumped into Jack, and I saw, "What? What? What? What? Why didn't you have a man?" Just to stop that, get out of jail for that left-hander. He said, "Yeah, yeah." He said, "Yeah, it's a good idea." And he didn't mind at all, because he loves playing for snows. He wasn't grumbling, but he said, "Oh, yeah, good. I'd blend in one one." What are they going to do? I mean, how does it work with Sherb going forward? I mean, they felt like an obviously bold, huge man. I mean, the problem... They can't play two spinners in the Somersets. Well, how many times have you played two spinners? Well, at home you might. Well, there was a period where we played two spinners, or even three quite often. Yes. You're raking the middle of the pitch, though. That's where we were making an interesting pitch. Unlike the... You know, we played on a green top against Essex. It was all over in two days. No one got too 100. No one... No one batted an eyelid. A good cricket pick, though. I think there must be two really administrators who were all scene-bogglers. Well, one solution is to try and get them both in the same team. But you know what it's like? It's just you tend to turn. You can still... You could still play two good spinners on a good pitch on the basis that they can, you know, do a job just as well as a full-seamer. But it is an issue. Mm. And they both... I think the good thing is both of them understand. They have enormous respect. Jack Leach and Showe get on terrific... Very placards, men, aren't they? Well, and Leach is full of encouragement for Showe. Yeah. My guess is that they'll both go to Pakistan. Yes. But it is a bit of a conundrum. I mean, it's amazing how Showe has done what he's done when you consider his red-ball history at county level, which is practically non-existent. Amazing. And the recent rejections that he had from, I think, sorry Middlesex had him on their books and playing youth cricket. And he didn't manage to make it onto a signed staff there. So for him to come from that point in time to where he is now having taken as many test wickets as he has at the young age that he has is a fantastic turnaround for him. But there was a similar scenario a few years ago when Kies Vetter and Butler, were both playing for Somerset. Butler ended up having to leave and go to Lancashire. Clearly Somerset would be reluctant to let him go, but it might come to a stage where he might have to for the betterment of his career. Yeah. Now we can hear from Jason Holder with Simon Mann. Well, Jason, great fight back at the end of the day. Well, actually, from halfway of the day, really. Yeah, it was a really good deal for us. Yeah, tough at the start, obviously. I think the two opponents really set your tone for us. I think credit must be given to both of them, both Craig and Mackels. I've been pretty solid for this series. We don't carry it on to get big scores. And I guess that was the trend today again. You know, a few battles got him, but we didn't really carry on to make a big score. But having said that, I think, where we came out in this last, this last bit of the day, you know, credit must go to the team. Maybe got the three-way kits, you know, the energy was pretty good, and then on the bowling was equally as good. What did you think about a score of 282? I think it's a good enough pitch that we should have scored more. But having found ourselves in a situation that we found ourselves in terms of losing the wickets, I think it was a period where myself and Josh had to consolidate, and I absorbed pressure to then put pressure back on England. Unfortunately, Josh got out. And then I, you know, I just kind of labored in the middle a little bit without turning nobody's strike, I guess. But yeah, all in all, you know, runs on the board. I think we've gotten three early wickets. It's a matter for us to come tomorrow and just try to get deeper into their middle to lower half. When you were 115 for five, I don't know, that might be a temptation to think, you know, here we go again, you've had a few batting collapses. What was the conversation out there in the middle? Yeah, Josh and I, we always back well together. I think our mantra is just to be positive. I'm standing moment. I look to score. I think England board has made it hard for us up front. You know, we both had to graph a little bit, but I think we hung in there long enough in order for it to get easier. And then, you know, we were able to build a really good partnership. I think it was 100 plus. So we all needed at that time. Again, unfortunately in carry on to go a little deeper. But having said that, as I said before, runs on the board and we just need to come tomorrow and, you know, show that presence again. Is it a 13 wickets in a day pitch, do you think? I don't think so. Yeah, I guess it's a bonus for us to get it through your kids this evening. But having said that is pretty slow, not much overall carry. But having said that, I guess, well, I guess that's the way the game is played. You know, some days it just doesn't really click on, you know, plastic conditions. But who knows what tomorrow has in store? But hopefully we can come tomorrow and start well and carry on momentum throughout the day. How would you sum up the position of the game after one day? I think we got our noses in front at the moment. Getting through the kids in the evening, you know, after they're sending their night watchmen, they're missing their watchmen. And we're now into there, you know, two or two of their better players. Both opponents have been dismissed and, you know, I guess there's a thorn in their side at the moment. But pressure will be on there in the middle of middle half to really get them into the game. But I will say that we're real. We've got our noses in front. Jason, thanks very much for your time. Well done today. Thank you. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my hundredth mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. Honestly, when I started this, I thought I'd only have to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at midmobile.com/switch, whatever you're ready. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes of city details. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get a hundred dollar credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com/results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. Linked in, the place to be, to be. It's the thoughts from Fazio, shall we? But we're re-right there at the end, Fazio? That was excitable stuff. And suppose the situation like that leaves you feeling well. If only, if only, in the sense that the eagerness, bowling the right line, down the right channels, catch is taken. Had they been done on the first day at Crenbridge. And it's inevitable when you're talking about a West Indies team that still with an experienced middle order, players feeling their way, these things happen. But when you finish as strongly as you do here, it leaves you with the sense of anticipation, whether they can carry it through and get that breakthrough. As Finney mentioned, to get through either route or poop and really get deeper into the order, we'll have to wait and see. But they've certainly finished strong. Yeah, they've got a great chance. They've got a really good chance tomorrow. They've got a ball that's only about how many overs old, eight overs old, you know, fresh start. They've got a terrific opportunity. I've seen enough of us to know how things can go. Oh, come on. I don't know if I've heard exactly that response from you before, but the enthusiasm that you would have is tempered on my side of things by that harsh reality of so many years and the very recent history. But you're right. I mean, they've got to come in to tomorrow's play, thinking that they've got England with their backs to the wall here. They've got to think that, look, let's ball the same way, the same discipline, the same aggression, let's catch everything that comes away. And actually believe that they can do it. Yeah. The captain's playing an interesting role at home, doesn't he? I mean, he's normally a block of breath weight who doesn't play a shot, but actually he's much more fluid and expansive in the course of this series, isn't he? Craig Bathwood, 2.0, maybe, I don't know. Actually, he's improved his strike rate by almost 50% in this test series. And I think that's a recognition of his role because he knows at the other end, you've got someone who's still learning test cricket, brand new, who's played his part in these partnerships, I mean, the Western East. They have three consecutive opening stands of 50 plus in England, represents a significant step forward. But unfortunately, with that, you've still got, like in the case of Mikhail Louis, hasn't gotten to a 30 years yet. You've then got three, four and five, very, very vulnerable despite the celebrations of Trent Bridge with the 100 and the 80 for Kavim Hodge and Athanas. So there's still a tremendous amount of work to be done. And you get the sense that Bathwood is taking on that responsibility. Might be slightly against his nature, but I think we've seen a much more positive intent from him over the last few years. Yeah. Just quietly, Jason Holders, just having a good little series here, isn't he? And then certainly he's come back, he's been reintegrated to use that famous phrase back into the team. I mean, some brilliant catching, he's scored runs, he's bowled nicely. Indeed, he has. And I think reintegration might be a little harsh in the context of if there's someone who had fallen out of favour. I don't think that was the case so much. And he had explained his situation about prioritising T20 cricket. The irony was that he was injured before the T20 will look up. But I think the breadth and the scope of Jason Holders' contribution to Western East Cricket really puts him at a level where you can't really question his dedication and his loyalty to Western East Cricket because he's taken a lot as Western East captain over the years. And he's still come back and faced it up square on. So to see him now playing his part with the bat and taking those two catches in the field where he missed a couple at Trent Bridge as well. Just reinforces his value to Western East. And I think it's really up to the authority that we've been talking about since the advent of T20. To find a way to develop their dialogue, to develop their arrangement and conversation, if they can have a proper conversation with the players, that the Western East can be in a situation where the best players are available most of the time. You'll never have a situation where they'll be available all the time now because of the mushrooming of T20 franchises and the porosity of revenue in the Caribbean game. That's a double, that's a double head sword that cuts the Western in many, many different ways. So it really is a situation where they've got to develop that sort of relationship and work out some sort of formula where they can get the best players most of the time. If anyone ever doubts the commitment of Western Indians, the catch that they are of wood by holder and the reaction, his reaction, seals reaction under the whole team. I mean, it was a brilliant catch, but this was shouting, "Come on!" There's the passion there. Is it there? I mean, the one thing I would suggest that Kevin Hodge has to stop trying to embrace Jason Holder because when he does so, he finishes up almost two feet off the ground but his feet dangling like a little kid. But really, it's almost natural. It's in need. With the Caribbean, we celebrate a lot. We are expressive. Maybe sometimes people ask, "What you're celebrating for when you're losing the match?" It's sort of like those NFL games where you sack the quarterback with a minute to go and you're trailing by 40 points and then you celebrate. But it's the same sort of thing. It's very expressive, it's very exuberant, and when it works well, when it comes together nicely as in this last half an hour, it really gives you that feel of what the West Indies can do. Again, it's the talent, it's the billions, it's the brilliance, but it's the consistency. That consistency that they really need to harness, if we could have more of those types of celebrations. Just watching that catch, too. I mean, you're a tall man. I just hold a tall view, probably, I don't know, about the same. It's a similar hype, but he appears a lot taller because he's so broad. He's a massive man. To take that second catch, the wood one, he actually had to catch it with his solo, with his hands on moving from right to left. He had to almost scoop it into his hands. It was a brilliant take. He's a wonderful athlete. He was actually getting stretched in one of the drinks breaks when he was batting down there and the physio hadn't bent up like a pretzel. I was watching him thinking out on Earth as he found himself in this position. He had his leg right over his head like he was in the splits. He's clearly a very nimble and live man and moves a lot better than most people who are his height. To get down and to stay low and to be able to keep your weight low as a tall man in the slips is such a difficult thing. That's why you don't see that many tall players who are actually that good in the slips, especially bowlers. To catch that, late on day one, when you've been hunched over you about most of the day, holding your team up was a great effort. I think those who remember Tony Gregg would also remember a very tall man who was a brilliant second slipper as well. So what of tomorrow? See the last thought from you? I mean, it's really good to see England's batting under pressure, isn't it? Absolutely. You want there to be a contest all the way through this game. Clearly, it looked as though when we were about 20 minutes out from the close of play that England might be cantering towards that first innings lead that Chris Wokes talked about in his interview there but this scene bowling at the West Indies is so dangerous and if they get their tails up and if they click as a unit and they find that fight, not fight actually, it's that passion and that collective hunting around the batter, then they can be so dangerous and take wicked. So England will have to come tomorrow and they'll have to be on their guard because the West Indies will see this is a great opportunity to upset the party and to leave this test series with something to show for it. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Now, I sat down with the ECB Chief Executive Richard Gould during the tea break here at Edge Baston talking about England's white ball management structure as well as the future of the 100. But first we talked about Test Cricket and where England as a nation stands in championing the format. I don't think that we represent the global position of Test Cricket. I think that we lead Test Cricket in terms of attendances and interest and Mount McCaffrey for the chair of Watcher. Watcher was telling me that they were 18,000 up in terms of ticket sales on the last time they hosted the West Indies, which is about 20, 25% up. So that's very good numbers. But I think we love our Test Cricket England and we have a responsibility to try and make sure that we can take it forward and progress it throughout the rest of the world. There are always challenges on that. But I was interested to see that India travelling to Australia for a test series at the end of this year. They're playing five tests. I think that's the first time they've played a five test series for 30 odd years. Just to reflect the value of the broadcasting revenue that that sort of series can generate or do you think it actually shows the interest in Test Cricket? The broadcast value, of course, is important. But so is really good high quality competition over a prolonged period. And I think that's what we get from Test Cricket. We talk about responsibility for the rest of the world then. So how can we, I mean all of us, therefore here, take responsibility for the West Indies for instance. I mean, Johnny Gould's been quite outspoken, hasn't he? Yeah, all sorts of strange things. I didn't realise about the way that these tours are structured. That actually the West Indies team got nothing. That amazing game at Brisbane. It's really old-fashioned on Tel-E and the value of that game would be immense and yet they've got nothing. It's really old-fashioned, it's based on reciprocity. So that when we travel to the West Indies, we will play for our flights, we will get there. And they look after us, but there is no fee for ECB. All of the revenue that's retained from broadcast revenue remains in the West Indies and Ditto here. And so that's long been the case. Johnny's been talking about changing it. I agree it needs to be tweaked. And for example, next year when Zimbabwe talks, we will be paying them a tour fee to assist with them coming. But there are also other ways in which we can assist. And so, for example, we went to the West Indies pre-Christmas. We were supposed to buy one-day internationals and three T20s. We paid five T20s. That allowed them to generate extra revenue and so on. So there are lots of different ways that we can help each other. There are a will which should really do think globally. Look at the team at South Africa Centre, New Zealand, for instance. Where are we with that balance between the franchise and the revenue that's generated by that, then test cricket? I think the order picture. I think the South Africa thing was very unfortunate. I think they would regard it as unfortunate as well. I don't think that's the kind of thing that we will see replicate. They have any choice. Often we are working on future tour plots that are done and worked out many, many years in advance. So when you get something like the franchises which are relatively new, you have to find space for them. But what's interesting is that the whole of the future tour plot for the whole of international cricket is based on test cricket. The first thing that's put in is the test matches between England and Australia and India. So that's firm out until 2031 and then even the ICC will work its tournaments in and around that. But I guess, I don't know this, you can tell me. However, home boards can presume it is put in their own tournaments as and when they want and they're not necessarily bound by that. Yeah, that's where that comes and I think we are seeing new money coming in with some of the franchises. But we're also going to make sure that we protect what we've got. And in England, I'll make up a number but it's north of 70% of our revenue from broadcasters, from a set of tickets, hospitality sponsors, is based on test cricket. But that does make us somewhat unique. What is it? I mean, India and Australia in places they would. Yeah, India and Australia will be pretty good. It will be good but outside of those. Not so much. So why do we think and why does everybody believe and I think that test cricket is at risk? If it's still generating that sort of income for English cricket and it's still generating substantial income for India and Australia, why does it feel that it's such a precarious place? I think sometimes there's a narrative which is pursued in terms of franchise cricket coming forward and it's going to take over. I think there are 17 franchise tournaments for male cricketers at the moment around the world. They're not all sustainable, frankly. Some people are taking a bet. Yes. But we've also got to make sure that we get the revenue down to the players so that they want to play test cricket. You know, through the ICC, all of the members have pretty good revenue streams coming in. It's up to them then as to where they want to put that money and how they want to spend it. Arguably, along with the ashes, I'm not quite an argument here, but along with the ashes, test cricket's greatest shot window is injured against Pakistan. Could part of our responsibility be to host a test series here between those two. I mean, people would love it, wouldn't they? Yeah, crowds, everybody would love that. Is that impossible? I wouldn't say it's impossible. The politics between between the BCCI and the Pakistan Cricket Board are long known as in the politics between government. That's what it effectively replicates. I find that fascinating. We're in Sri Lanka over the weekend for ICC meetings. You see Pakistan cricketers and supporters and Indian cricket supporters getting on so well. But as soon as the let's get element is put in, it creates, creates issues. Yes. Can you see the Champions trophy going ahead in Pakistan next year? There's a great deal of determination to make sure that it is. Yeah, particularly from Pakistan Cricket Board and the ICC. So we're on to whiteboard cricket. Lots of rumours going round at the moment that Matthew Mott already received his cards. That's not true. That's certainly not true. And Matthew Mott, really good guy, really good coach, great track record. Same with Joss. We are always assessing options. That's what happens in high performance sport. You're always assessing your options. But you never want to be drawn into being given the dreaded vote of confidence or anything like that. I'm here today with my dad, who was a football manager. I've seen him for a few years, how is he? He's good, thank you. And of course, that's what competitive sport is. It always brings scrutiny and decisions. But we'll always make sure that, as I said, we constantly assess all our options. But we'll always want to make sure we do the right thing by the sport and the team and the individuals. So your soundings, if you are giving a vote of confidence and his job is safe. I'm not going to be giving and drawn into any kind of vote of confidence because I know where that leads. I was just trying to remember, I think my favourite time my dad left a job was when he was at Peterborough United. And he was working at Barry Fry, that was quite an incendiary duo. And he was playing at Bristol City and I happened to be working there at that time. And Bristol City went 1-0 up at half time. And my dad didn't come back out for the second half. And frankly, what had happened was he resigned at half time. So, that was that. It is a vote of time. But is there any pressure of time? There's lots of compensation about this. But we're suggesting there aren't going to be any changes to the right or management. We'll always use whatever time we've got to make the best decisions possible. So we won't be pressured into anything other than that. So we don't expect anything, there's nothing imminent at the moment as far as that's all concerned. No. OK. What about the hundred then? I'm a bit confused with all this, I'll be honest. And the numbers and the splits and the percentages and so on. Can you put in sort of simple terms what the plan is for your future for the hundred? Yeah, so the hundred, we received an offer as a game 18 months ago for somebody to buy the hundred. The whole thing. The whole thing. And that was something that the ECB board looked at and we spoke with our stakeholders. And it was something that we didn't want to contemplate at the end. Because we felt that if we ended up selling the entire competition, what we were actually selling was a part of the summer. A scheduled block within the summer. And we think that the game always needs to retain control of that. And currently the hundred is a relatively short 27 day window. And we don't want to sell it to somebody that suddenly puts pressure on to increase it to 35 or 42. We think that those, you know, how our schedule needs to be retained by the ECB on behalf of the game. But we do see the merit of bringing in private investment. And therefore we're pursuing investment into the teams in order to add value. And through that we are providing a 51% stake back to the venue where they currently are. And that's to recognise the efforts over many decades that have gone into the value of these amazing grants. With the other 49% being retained by the ECB on behalf of the rest of the game. And we're going to go to market with that. And we're excited by the investment partners that are looking at this. And we're also excited by the revenue that that can then generate to go in and support the whole of the game. From grassroots all the way through. Have you got some sort of reserve if you like price? If I did, I'm not telling you Mr Agnew. I don't necessarily know what it is. But is there a point? I mean if all these, just say they're all Indian IPL franchises want to buy into the 100. And they all say, well hang on, let's give them a half the price they're after because if you all join together and do it. I mean is there a danger that actually you're not going to get what you want? No, I don't think so because we'll take our time again. No, that's the one thing that we've got this time. We want to make sure that we find the right partners and the right partner for each club. Whether that's from India, whether that's from America, whether that's from other sports. There's lots of interest in there. The rain group are doing that on behalf of us and they've got an excellent record in this. And if it needs to be, we'll take our time. We're not expecting them all to go at the same time, on the same day, on the same way. It's not going to be like a boxing day sale. No, not in that regard. It's about partnership. It's about long-term partnership, long-term value and making sure that what we do is going to be a benefit for the next 10, 20, 30 years for the game. Not just flashing the pan. Here you go. What about people who say, well this is the beginning of the end, thin end of the wedge for what? Well, for our game, I suppose. If you're opening it up to private investors now, where does it end? How can there be guarantees that isn't kind of the... The guarantees are there because we will retain control of the window. That's the issue. With the ECB on behalf of its stakeholders, the counties, we will make sure that we control the window that operates within. That competition operates. What happens if the county actually doesn't want to play along with this? Some talk of some counties not wanting to... No, I think we're receiving really positive vibes, certainly from all of the hosts. And then the non-hosts are also seeing the benefits that can accrue to them. But there will be different ways of achieving and optimising each deal. The deal that might be right here, edge-basts, and might be very different to the deal that may be appropriate at lords. And so each one will be taken on a very individual basis. Right. And it should be very relaxed. When's it going to be in place? This sort of new? Well, we're looking to go to the market formally in September. And there'll be probably two or three stages. We will take our time. It could bear in mind that this is not a competition that then has to be suddenly implemented from scratch this time. Actually, the competition is going and going very well and going very successfully. So the investment can come alongside that in a transitionary way as required. And it'll still be called a hundred. Yeah. Eden has not played over a hundred balls. We're not looking at the format. I know lots of people would like us to look at the format, but that's not something on the agenda that we're looking at. We know that the hundred as a competition, as a brand, is very strong. We know it's been divisive within this country. And at times, in the past, I've been sat on the other side of the fence when I was at Surrey, or at Somerset before. If you had it hard to argue for it, given that you were quite out. No. And the chairman too, for that matter. Not in this particular instance, because you mentioned the 51%, we're giving it back to the counties. We're giving control back, not just to the current hosts, but the other counties as well. And everything that we're doing is being worked through in a really collaborative spirit. We are on the road speaking to the counties constantly. We are refining our ideas and our opportunities in line with them. So every time we last weren't out on Monday, this is where we think the position is. Let us know if you've got other thoughts, other ideas, help us refine things through. So it's being done in a really collaborative process. No one's being pulled across the start line by their collar. For counties like my Leicestershire and others, is this kind of last payday saloon? No, I don't think so, but the very reverse of that, to be honest. Because the idea is that this will bring revenue into the game, which can then be used by Leicestershire or Northlands or Somerset to invest in their own facilities, in their own stadium, their own player pathways. All of the money that we're seeking to bring in will be used by the county system to bring that forward. And there will be checks on how it's... Yes, there will be checks on how it's going. No, but what's fascinating is the discipline on how the money's being spent is being driven by the counties. You know, we've seen what happens in other sports. So we want to learn from other sports, so make sure that we can properly use this. So if that improves the facilities at Grace Road, that allows more... Impossible. I mean, impossible. You are right. You are quite right. It's a perfect gem. Look, we've done this to a lovely aroma, wafting from behind us. Curried goat, I noticed. I've had a bit of a taste of it, which is a personal favourite. And there's others, jerk, chicken and so on there. What's your launching initiative, I think? Yes, celebrating the diversity of cricket through food. There have got so many different communities that are involved in cricket throughout the country. Perhaps cricket tees have always been viewed in a particular fashion. And actually using food to celebrate the diversity and the differences that we've got is a really nice way of doing it. So we've got over 100 events that are going on all the way through the country. I can see Dino, they're tucking into a goat curry. The last time I had goat curry, I think, was with the Gurkers. It's just great. And they've got some good cooks. Thanks to Richard for joining us here at Edge Baston, and that's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed on BBC Sounds. You don't miss anything from this test series between England and the West Indies. And while you're on BBC Sounds, check out the very latest Ask the Umpire with John Holder, which is available right now, to find out whether you can clean a cricket ball with a very long beard. Also, the West Indies chief executive Johnny Graves is on the latest episode of Stumped, talking about investment in West Indies cricket. Test match specials back when they were at 10 o'clock on Saturday on five sports extra and BBC Sounds for the second day of the Test match here at Edge Baston. If you want years of better sleep, then you have to upgrade your betting during Bolin Branch's annual summer event. Right now, you can get Bolin Branch's best-selling, naturally-cooling sheets with their best offer of the season. Feel the difference night after night of light and breathable sheets made with the highest quality materials. 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