The Kollege Podcast
How to Make a VSL, Go Deep, Learn to Sell | Kollege Value Call 14
What you're about to listen to is an experiment. After selling his e-learning company, college founder Blake Lorange decided to host a $50,000 per year mastermind. But instead of charging, he did it for free. Anybody could show up. I mean, literally anybody could show up and ask any question they wanted, and Blake would show up and help them for free. What happened after that was insane. Some of the best entrepreneurs showed up asked questions tons of value was created, and what you're about to hear is a recording of that. He's being doing it for a year for free, and he's still doing it, and you can check out the link in the description if you want to join the conversation. What's up, everybody? Hey. How's it, Blake? Good. How are you guys? Good, and yeah? Good. Let's dive into it. Anybody have anything? Well, Marcel, have you ever jumped on one of these calls? No. It's my first one. Oh, dude. You should introduce yourself, say where you're from, and then maybe explain what it is that you're doing or what you're trying to do or what your plans are. I'd love to know that. Awesome. Well, thank you very much, Randy. I'm pleased to be here. Super stoked, actually. Yes, I'm a financial advisor in South Africa, and recently I've launched my mastermind, and I'm trying to transition from giving traditional financial advice to buy policies to being an educator in my field and really bringing solid financial advice to a broader audience instead of selling policies, which would be like life insurance or investment policy. Okay, got it. Do you sell life insurance and investment policies currently now, though? Yeah, half off. Okay, got it. And you're trying to -- oh, you said you had a mastermind that you launched? Mm-hmm. How's that going? It's going pretty good, I think. I mean, I've been selling it organically. I've sold about seven seats now in the last month, but it's quite cheap at this point. South Africa, I've found the sweet spot to be around $5,000, ran, which is about $300. But obviously, I need to increase it, so I'm trying to plan a business-style product versus now I'm doing personal financial planning. Okay, cool. Nice, man. So, to have you on, yeah. What time is it in South Africa? 6pm. Okay. I knew it was either something very late or something very early, so cool. Yeah. Nice, man. That was South African, but you obviously have the thicker accent than I do. I don't have any, so... Okay. You smoothed it out a bit, I'll sell a bit rough around the edges. What about everybody else? What are you guys working on? I'm just working on my VSL script. Well, I think it's mostly done, but I did have one question about it. Like, when you've talked about VSLs in the past, the thing that I've heard you say the most is don't educate, show them. And I was wondering if you could give some examples of what you mean by what would be examples of education that should not be happening in the VSL. Because I think that's where I think a lot of people could get. It's like, yeah, what does that mean? Don't educate. Okay. I wouldn't say that that's like a blanket rule on every VSL ever. Okay. You know what I mean? Like, I'm trying to remember the context in which I said that, although you're right, I do recall myself saying that a lot. I'm just trying to place it in its context as to what was happening in that. Well, it came up when we were talking specifically, but you were going quickly over how I would structure my VSL and basically it says here, like, and this was just off the top of your head. Right. Very quick, and it was like, maybe you're making some money in yoga, but you don't have consistent income. You're teaching yoga, but pain, pain, pain. And then you said, show them what you do. Don't just tell. No education. Just here's what we do. Here's Denise. She's an expert. Here's what we do, where you make X amount of dollars. So that was kind of the where that came from. But if you want, I have it, it's all written down if you want to actually just look at the words of that would help, too. But I just found that the whole like, don't educate thing was worth talking about, I guess. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you have to look at it like market sophistication and I don't mean like the people who are sophisticated, I just mean like the people who in your market that are really in tune with what it is that not only you're doing what, but which people are trying to sell to them all the time, right? So if you look at it as like, I hate to say top funnel, middle funnel, bottom of funnel, but maybe not sophisticated at all, you know, have never been marketed to do not understand that there are solutions to their problems, whatever, right? Something like this. Then there's a great deal of education that needs to happen, right? If it's somebody who has is the markets super sophisticated and they they're marketed to a lot, then there's no amount of education that needs to happen. You just need to sort of pull back the curtains and tell them what you're doing. So I think it's just determining where your market is on that trajectory, if that makes sense. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And like, I don't know if this is like, and like so, for example, like to me, sophisticated market is these all of us, the business, online business people, like we've been marketed to for different courses in every different way possible. But so I would say that in general, like the yoga teachers are, I would, I would guess that they're fairly unsophisticated in that, you know, a lot of them, a lot of my competitors aren't even really using what I would call like a real sales page or something like that. Like it's, it's more just like treating a website like a word doc or like just like a kind of a single column. Yeah. It looks like it could just be printed on a, on a, on a word processor because that's what these people are familiar with. But so I don't know if this is too general of a question and if it is, that's fine. But if you're dealing with an audience that's not that sophisticated, the education that needs to happen, like what, what would that look like? Like it, is that too general? No, that's a good, I think that's a good discussion point. Yeah. Because education will happen at some point in the person's journey, right? So I guess the question is, should that or out that education kind of fall solely on the VSL, basically, how much of it do you want to put on that? I think that's fair. And what would those things be that, that would be falling on, like that's what I'm trying to, like, like, is it education, it's like, well, I'm, I'm actually more interested in what it's not, but, but like what are the, like, so what are the, what are the things that we're trying to avoid, right? When you, if you're, if it's don't educate, yeah, I, I guess I just want to know examples of things that would count as education. And then we know to, like, like, is that like, would that be an example of like, here's all the course curriculum and here's why you need to know it? Is that kind of what you mean to not do that and just talk about this larger journey and this transformation? Yeah, good question. It's more around education, not on what you're doing, but just on like belief systems and things that need to kind of be unlocked before you start talking to them about any offer. Like I can give you an example of where you can, like, what, where you thought to educate. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so there's, so I can find it. I was talking about this on the incubator call yesterday and it kept coming up. I feel like it might be helpful to talk about, you know, somebody in there who is, oh, here we go, making, we're basically just building VSLs together. VSL is kind of just the, it's the bane of everybody's existence, it seems like VSLs. Let's see here. Marcel, Ivan, do you guys have VSLs? Yeah, I do. Well, Ivan's gone. Never mind, I scared him. Okay, so hopefully this should connect a little bit. So if I look at this, this is a VSL of a real estate offer. Ignore everything, excuse me, except for this, okay? Okay. So let's read this. In order for us to explain how to become completely financially independent, we need to tell you how we even discover this in the first place. Otherwise, everything we're going to show you won't make any sense. If you stick around, you'll discover the three belief systems that are keeping you poor and stopping you from taking the plunge, discovering, escaping the 95 grand for good. So this has been an example of educating that, yeah, could be done, or maybe ought to be done depending on how, where everybody is in your funnel or where they're at in general. So these three things, number one, saving money will make you wealthy. Number two, debt is bad. Number three, you have to invest your backyard. So, and then the rest of it is just a story and education around these things. So here's the light bulb here for this kind of topic we're talking about. These things are things that people believe regardless of whether this offer exists and regardless of if this offer is the best thing for them. So there are things that will prove, let me put it another way, in other words, these three things will prevent them from doing anything unless they are educated about them, okay? And so this like, let's say, let's say that this offer is exactly what they need, okay? Let's just say that. And let's say that this offer is the best solution to their problem. So there's like five or six different offers, if you will, in the marketplace. And this one's the best. And it will solve their problem. Let's just assume all of that, okay? Let's assume they have the finances to invest in this. Let's assume that they believe that this is the best thing for them. Let's assume that it's just the best case scenario, purchasing power is there. Check, problems there, check, solutions there, check. They've found that this is the best thing. Why are they moving forward? You've eliminated trust objections, they don't need to talk to their wife, whatever it may be, right? It's all done. Why aren't they moving forward? It's because of these things that are keeping them from doing this regardless of how awesome you are, regardless of the market with the markets trying to sell them. These are belief systems that we need to educate them on in order to get them sold on the idea of not unless, right, or whatever this offer is, but telling them why they aren't moving forward. These are belief systems that are there. So this is a great sort of accurate diagnosis because in this offer, it's a real estate thing. The offer is you got to utilize mortgages. The offer is real estate's better than saving money. The offer is I need to invest in real estate in my backyard. It's not going to work. You have to invest outside your backyard. So these things are hurdles, belief system hurdles. And so the rest of that section is just eliminating and educating why these things are wrong. So that would be educating. They're more educating on belief systems. I've kind of said it in so many ways, but is that making sense? Yeah. Mark, you're muted, I think. Yes. Sorry. There's jump rope happening upstairs that yes, this completely makes sense and I understand now. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So like for Marcel, like an example might be for your like financial planning people, you need to think of maybe five things or three things, whatever that whether or not you existed and assuming that your product or offering is the thing that really solves their problem. Why aren't they moving forward? What are belief systems that are keeping them? And those are the things that you put in and educate. I don't know what those might be. It might be, ooh, I mean, you want to transition out of selling insurance products and more and you know, those, those financial products, you want to be doing more lifestyle like that kind of thing. Is that right? Yeah. That's exactly right. Like it's making me think now really, this has been awesome actually because my video sounds later was like only showing. So I was only like, this is what it looks like, this is where the community is. But what you're showing me now is like making me think of, for example, people are trying to go it alone. We already have like a laid out financial plan table that they can just adopt, but everybody's trying to sort of do their own planning. And that might be one thing I can stick in like, don't go it alone. We've got a community. We've got a template or a blueprint, I call it. Yeah, totally. So those templates in those blueprints might be exactly what they need, but what's keeping them, their belief systems from, from not being sold on you or are you, can I really trust this guy? What's keeping them from doing the things that you will tell them to do? What belief systems are in place that that need to be eliminated? That seems pretty related to pain points as well. Like, I can see how those two things would get smashed. So if you're kind of, okay, well, I've got chunks on that, that that's happening in the BSL for sure, pointing out the right, the pain points. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Well, for me, anyways, it sounds like I'm, I think I'm on the right track anyways. So cool. I think so. I mean, do you want to take a look at it? You want to like kind of dive in and see what is you got? I don't want to make you like, read a massive thing, right? That's my only concern, but maybe there's like certain parts here. I'll show you the, I'll just send you the, the fig jam file that I made. And just cause like, I find that if I'm scrolling through a word document, I get it's annoying. So now I, I, I kind of took it and, and broke it into like the, the different sections of the VSL are just in text chunks on a, on the fig jam file. Oh, okay. And like you can just share your screen or whatever. Yeah. Let me do that. Sure. But yeah, this is kind of how, yeah, okay, that, this is how I broke it out is like you got your intro and pain points. And then we explain why the problems exist, which is problems with the industry. And then this section, the green section is kind of like explaining our, this, this business of like, okay, there's a yoga practice, there's this movement system that applies to everything. And then there's this education that we're trying to deliver to the world. Could I think that that needs to be there because there's no reason why someone would anticipate that those things are being put together like that. Otherwise, it's just like a, well, I'm just learning yoga. It's like not really. And then the three phases is kind of the purple thing is, is your, you know, that journey that you, that, that right. And then the blue, who you want, who we want at the end. So that's kind of the, the overview of what I've made here. We just, can we tear this to strides, bro? Can we go for it? Yeah. Yeah. If you're willing to, I'll give you edit, I'll give you there so you can edit whatever now. Okay. If you, or you can just tell me to do an all to it. No, it's cool, man. Yeah. I need to be careful of this. I, with the partners, guys, we've got, there's the, there's this guy, the incredible guy. He, he has a business that implements systems into people's businesses. And they, he, he, we were doing a sales call review and I was listening to his closer and kind of giving him advice, et cetera. And I sent off a loom video and I watched it and I'm like, Oh, I'm such a jerk. I, I tore this guy apart and it gave him no grace. There was nothing encouraging and I feel bad. But I think that's how, I think that's how to help people. So that's how you learn that's how you learn. Whatever. Yeah. That's fine. Hopefully he responds to me. Let's see here, uh, that case right now, I said, right, I can't lean in there. I'd like to say his teaching. Okay. Cool. Um, maybe I'll do, um, maybe I'll do like a, uh, well, first of all, Marcel, Ivan, or, or I guess just Marcel, I'm looking at camera people is do you reckon this will be helpful as you're thinking through what you're doing as well? Yeah. For sure. Okay. Yeah. I just want to make sure that we're all kicking the soccer ball around or football ball around. Sorry. With this, my OCD is going to start trick, triggering me. Let's see. Is this the same size? Okay. Um, so let's see here. The big picture here is Denise is talking about authority, which means that she is, she is talking about herself and results that she has achieved. Those are the two things that are popping out to me. I always like to just synthesize until like, what is this entire thing? It's authority. The importance of this right now, it's not what I think. It's just what I'm reading, uh, not what I think it should be. It's when I'm, you know, perceiving this to be. It's just authority, right? So hey, here's who I am. Here's what I do. Testimonials results that she's achieved. I can't spell obviously achieved achieved. That doesn't look great. And then look, I'd telling her what she's done. I can say, I, my, I, this is basically talking about her and what she's discovered. So she's done two things. She's talking about herself and there's all she's achieved which communicates authority. So then the question becomes, are you wanting to communicate authority? If so, great. You did it. If not, then we need to change this. My, my, um, you might be thinking some things already, but just my kind of two cents already. If I can just kind of throw my weight around a little bit here, it's, yes, it's basically what it needs to be communicated in this is a retention, right? So, so in the intro, we're not selling the program. We're selling to keep watching. You see, at these different points in the journey, there's these, there's this convincing that needs to happen. And so all we need to do is convince them to keep watching. So if your market values authority, then you've done a really good job, most likely. But what does this market value? It seems like they value, I don't know what they value. I don't know what yoga people value or yoga instructors value, but my, my gut's telling me is that we need to talk about them a little bit more. Okay. And results that she has achieved. So it's just a little shift. What's cool is that if you know what you're talking about and you talk about these pain points and industry problems, you don't need to communicate all about your authority. It just shows. It just, you can tell, like, you know what I mean, like I'm, like, right now I'm, let's just break the third wall. I'm doing this. I'm not telling you that after, you know, 10 years in business and after selling an online education company, Mike, my best case, an area for diagnosing this intro is that we should be focusing on. I'm not giving into that context. I'm just saying it and it's coming across like I know what I'm talking about. And you know, once it starts clicking, it's like, Oh, Denise will know Denise. I get what she's saying. So you can kind of take off the gas pedal a little bit on the authority, but I think just generally speaking, this is, this could be something I don't really don't want to ruin this. It's fine. It's fine. We've got backup. Yeah, we've got other copies and stuff. But let's do this. There was an easier way to do this and I'm not doing it the way here. Boom. There we go. Now you're good. You're good. Yeah. Good. Hey there. My name is Denise. I'm obsessed with this, this and this. And this is fine. Testimals are good and I don't want to rewrite this. I just want you to, I just want you to. So what I think might happen is we need to talk way more about them. So what would that look like? And you can weave it into the story. It's, whoops, what are the quantifiable and qualitative qualitative quantitative quantitative yeah, I always need to check my spelling because I have really, really bad dyslexia. Okay. What are the qualitative and. So quality. I mean, you guys know what this is right. Quantitative, how much qualitative, how does it, how does it feel quality? Not so much numbers or time or something that we can boil down to two dimensions. So what are the quantitative and qualitative metrics of your audience? So this is let's, let's, let's talk about pains and then motivations. This is kind of turning into a little seminar. I hope that's okay. Yeah. This is great. Okay. Cool. So there's pains and motivations. Right. Pains. What are they feeling? Sucks. Are they not making money? Can they not get students like just on a human level? If I'm going out to coffee after a yoga session with these instructors, and they're just like, Oh, here's what I'm feeling. You know, what are they going to say? Do you know what the answer is Mark to that? Yeah. Well, it's, it's all of that is in, I would say the next section. Okay. Great. Let's put that in the first. Yeah. Here it is. Okay. Here I am, here I am talking about the thing that's right next to it. Well, yeah, this is kind of, I don't know if you want my commentary on, on the, what's happening here, but this is kind of how Mariah, I really liked how she does this. Yeah. How does she do it? Don't the she's great. How does, yeah, how is it flowing for you when you think about this? Well, what she's what I've never heard anyone do it like this, but what she's like, so the first one is like the new yoga teachers. The second one is the ones with one to three years of experience. And then the veterans have five years plus. And by like pointing out different people and their problems along the journey, she, with this no sales called approach, she found that that really helped with people saying like, Oh, well, I checked out your program, but it seemed too basic for me or it, I don't think it's really for me or whatever. But when you show kind of the timeline of the client journey, then they can see that they're going to fit in somewhere in here, right? And we can help them all like it's, it's right. There's really not that, there's not a big difference, I would say, but you know, even when we made our program like, yeah, we're teaching yoga teachers, but for all intents and purposes, it's more like, they're more like, I would call them devoted laypeople. You can't make any assumptions on what these people may or may not, even though. But yeah, so that's what's happening there is kind of like, if you're brand new, here are your problems. I see. If you've been teaching for a while, here's where you're probably going to be at. And if you're a veteran, here's got the problem, right? This is so good. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, sorry. I don't mean this is so good. I think this is very clever. So it's something that I'm experiencing with college too. It's like, there's the, there's the, like at what point of the journey are you kind of chunking down on and helping? And in this industry in the past, normally you get really, really, by the way, I don't think this is how you do it from now on, but normally in the past, it's, you get very, very, very, very, very clear on your avatar or your niche or, you know, what's the specificity of the person you're helping, but where I think it's going is because of the rise of the technology, because of the rise of, um, education as well, I think what's happening is people from different parts of journey in all markets. I think all of your guys's markets too, is that they're going to have the same types of problems, but they're going to be different kinds of people. So rather than focusing on like the specific avatar or niche, or this is the exact person to help, it's here are the exact problems that all of these people are facing. That's the major shift. So as long as we can determine what some of these through lines are for each thing and then put them into this intro, then I think we'll be good to go. You see what I mean? So like for college, it's like we, we help people who are, first of all, we don't have anybody unless you're an expert at something, like that's the first thing, right? You got to be an expert at something. You got to know what you're talking about. We're not marketing. We're not going to do marketing. You got to know what you're talking about. And then let's take your expertise and then transition it into some sort of leveraged online education. Okay. There's that person. And then there's the person who's an expert, but as an entrepreneur who is doing services or maybe tiny little bit, you know, of course type stuff and they haven't leveraged, you know, online education to that next level. And then the third person, somebody who's already in online education, 30 to 100k a month, 300 k a month, who wants to really get it to the next place so that they're not, their life doesn't suck. And they eventually maybe want to exit or sell their business. That's like a, that's like a 10 year journey for some people. How in the world am I going to help all those people, you know? But all three of those people experience very similar pains throughout that journey. So instead of me going, calling all everybody, let's like chunk down on the pain points. So what I like about what you have here is you have people at different stages of the journey, which is great. All we need to do is front load that to the front, right, to in bullet point form so that they can keep listening to like what these pain points are. So it's pretty simple, man, right? It's, it's who. So we have, what do we have here? We have newly minted yoga t-shirts. So maybe it's better to say newly minted. I'm not sure. But I'm just, just for my own, you're muted, but you look good. No, it's, it's, you can put whatever, we might not even use that. This is, she's starting to, Denise is starting to speak through this and like allowed now. So some of this might tweak based on ease of speaking. Totally. Yeah. Finding her own voice in this. And remember too, this framework works for the no sales call thing. So you have to always go, is this going to be the best thing, you know, moving forward? Like you have to know that this works with the no sales call thing, as opposed to just, this is like a rule that I need to apply everywhere. You know, it's very, it ought to be flexible, you know? Yeah. This worked, we had this section in the original high ticket launch in August and it's been tweaked a little bit now based on experience, but we did do that before and yeah, we didn't have anyone saying, I don't think that it's for me. Got it. Okay. So this, if it works, then, then keep it. That's great. So all, so all we have here is just like, this is, this is very, it's very good, but it's very esoteric and it's very theoretical and it feels, it feels, I don't know what it feels like, it, it's, it's not as, as, as maybe flat or punchy as it, as it can be. So maybe take what I'm saying with a grain of salt and kind of massage it a little bit. So do you? Yeah, go on. Sorry. Well, I'm just wondering like this, this stuff here that you've got, this, this new thing that, well, you were just showing the, the yellow thing. Would it be possible? Like, I'm thinking that some of that would be conveyed in the testimonials. The testimonials are going to be video clips or I can make them video clips of them talking about like, I have so much confidence. I, I wouldn't have taken on this client without this program, but like, you know, so I was, I was wondering if that could kind of like, I was going to juxtapose video clips of the students talking with Denise's expertise. But you're right that this is like, I, I've, and I've heard it many times. Don't talk, hi, hi, hi, hi, like stay away from that. But yeah, so I, it's, it's fine though, right? Like, I, like you have these results you've achieved. That's it. All we're doing is the results that she's achieved already speaks for herself. So we don't need to talk about herself. You see what I mean? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so when we talk about them, all we're doing is we're chunking down on their problems and motivations. And then we're letting the results speak for themselves and giving her the authority that she needs without her explicitly saying it. You see what I mean? Mm hmm. Yeah. I guess my, like, um, you know, the idea, like some of these teacher, like some of the yoga teachers, the people they're learning from don't have her kind of academic background, which is why I was pointing that stuff out. But it seems like that's maybe not as necessary. Probably not, man. Do you? Okay. Okay. I can let go of that. But it's fine. I think, yeah, don't take everything I'm saying is sort of like hard and hard and fast. I think, like I think there's lots of, I think you, I think you can trust yourself here. Like you're intuition. You should not trust me in like how to talk to yoga people. I have no idea. But I do know that there's some universal, um, first principles that need to translate. So when I say let's talk about pains or who it is, as long as it's talked about, you can talk about it explicitly through case studies, through whatever you, that's your job to sort of put that in. What I'm here to say is that verse needs to be two bars. Okay. You see what I mean? Like this. And it needs to do this, but it's, but how you do it, whether it's a drum machine, whether it's incorporating some other sound, all of my, all of my analogies, unfortunately will just be, we'll just be music, um, I can follow that. So, so let me just give you a brief example that maybe we can, we can pull back and sort of like get everybody's temp on this. So just very generally speaking, at all three of these stages, whether they're brand new yoga instructors, experienced yoga structures and veteran yoga instructors, what are the three pains that all of them will experience super high level? Like I'm talking to somebody on the street. I don't even know what's activated a sauna, any of this nonsense, right? I don't know. Like what are the core things? They'll not like, they'll all have some form of extreme self doubt around their lack of knowledge. Whoa. Like how. Okay. Now we're getting somewhere. Anything that feels painful is what we need in here. So go on. What else? Brandon, is it cheating if I just look at what I wrote and not at all. The answers are probably here. Yeah. Yeah. So they're afraid that they, um, yeah, they don't, they're afraid that they don't know what they're talking about, but they get away with it because, um, in yoga, they can actually be teaching people things like incorrectly for a very long time without repercussions happening. Um, and then because it takes so long there, they won't, uh, like they never get caught. Like it's never their fault because the, the delta between the injury and when they started telling their students to do these wrong things is, is so wide. But that's, that's chunking down on this, which we're going to do, right? So just top, top level, high level, just another pain. I'm assuming around money or like, what are these things that these people are feeling? Yeah, I would say that the vast majority of them aren't happy with like their yoga teaching career, whether they're having to teach too much to make a living or whether they, um, they, they aren't able to get enough classes because they're too new and there's too much competition and stuff. Um, you know, yeah, like I would say in general, just not happy with, yeah, that I like the language you're using, self doubt aren't happy. These are very emotional things that take, takes like three or four questions to get this out of you and you're very in tune with how things feel. So it saves us a lot of time. It's good. Yeah, as opposed to their pain is they aren't making KPI or they don't like the money that they're making. It's, it makes them feel less confident in themselves when they listen to this. Like these things you already know, which is really good. I just wanted to sort of commend you for that. What's one more thing? Uh, I'm going to, let me, I'm worried that some of the things popping through my head are subsets of, of these other things. But they're, I don't know if this is related to the, not happy with the teaching career, but they all like a lot of them end up after they've been at it for a while, they'll start and they can't put the pieces together on how to have a yoga career, they'll deviate and be like, Oh, well, I should take an Ayurvedic. Uh, I should become a Chinese medicine practitioner. I should become a nutritionist or a health coach. Like they end up leaving and it, uh, it's made worse by the fact that a lot of the yoga teacher training programs out there are catering to that now and saying like, you'll become a yoga teacher and a chai, and we have this course on Chinese medicine. And like, so they, they end up like, they, they just kind of give up eventually thinking that it's even possible, but I don't, I don't tell me about, tell me about giving up. Tell me about giving up. Like, do they feel like they want to give up deep down? Do they really think that they can continue this for 30 years? Tell me more about the future and what they're feeling about this. Uh, future, I'm trying to hold all three of these people in my head at the same time. Um, nice, um, yeah, I like what Joe said. I believe they want something novel and new because they reach a ceiling. So they're looking, hmm, maybe they've hit a ceiling with their career. So they're looking for something new that won't work. Yeah, that's, that's like there, um, you know, one thing, I don't know if this is actually it like I came up with an idea of a while ago talking to about these people where it's like they're stuck at like this eternal crossroads where if you imagine like a sign post with like, you know, 500 miles to Kilimanjaro and a thousand dollar or a thousand miles here, like, you know, just like a, a world signpost that says, go this direction for this thing. And no matter where they go, they end back up at the signpost, uh, because they'll just, they always come back to like, okay, well, I did that and I still have the same doubts and questions. You're such a good, like, you have it all in you. This, like, I couldn't have thought of a better way to say this stuck at this eternal crossroad where they hit a ceiling with their skills and career, I added that that no matter where they go, they end up right where they are. I mean an actual photo, like I actually photoshopped the names of the topics on a, on a thing. Um, but yeah, I guess, I guess that would encompass all of them. And so what do they want? All three of them? What do they want? Not, not, what do they want? I mean, what do they want? And then underneath that, what do they want underneath that? What do they want? And then why do they want it? Is we're going to put in here? Yeah, um, I would say that they all, well, naturally, they all want to be making like a big difference in the lives of the people that they're, they're helping like this. I don't want to just say because they're women, but that's, that's kind of like, you know, that's a big part of, of, of female behavior is like contributing to your community and making a positive impact on the people around you that you love and care about. Right? Like, you know, men do that too, but, um, with, it's a different vibe for women. Right. So, um, okay, why that's, but why other than their, you know, there's a feminine energy to it? Like, why do they want to make a big difference? Why is that important for them? Um, wait, I like what Ivan says, sounds like they all are looking for it all that they're looking for is a specific structure and solid method to follow coming from someone that is a pro in an authority. It's yeah, it's pretty simple. Yes. That covers the third point. That's true. Yeah, that, I would say that's, that's definitely true and, and the problem for them is that no one's willing to give them the structure. Like, as soon as they, a lot of our, sometimes our teachers are in other teacher training programs at the same time and, and they'll start asking questions of these other teachers and they'll be told, don't, don't ask that, like, because they don't have the, oh, okay, the answers, you know, like, cause it, oh, no, no, you're, you're, you're, now you're asking questions that are too technical and yoga's not supposed to be that way, like that. Right. Because it's like, well, why does my shoulder hurt? Like, should I do this way or this way? And others can't answer those questions. Right. That's true. That's true for like every sort of health or wellness industry, or even medicine. It's like, you don't actually get to the root of it, really unfortunate. Um, but I think that's, I'm not thinking wide enough here, but, um, that's good. Let's, let's, let's kind of wrap this up with one more point here. Um, something about happiness or confidence or what are their motivating factors? Yeah. Well, the confidence would tie in with this, making a big difference in the lives of people they're helping, like, cause they don't have the, they're not like the idea of even telling them like, well, you know, if people are coming to you for teaching, like you should be able to help them and eliminate their, help them eliminate their problems and stuff like that. Even that idea, there would be a lot of, you get a lot of pushback from that in the yoga world about the, well, it's not about the destination. It's about the journey. Don't be attached to the outcome. All of that. Like there's a lot of mindset. Let's talk about the journey then. Cause the journey is important, right? Like I think in this business too, everybody cares about the outcome and that's, that has not served me well. So let's, you know what I mean? Like, I think everybody needs to be excited about the journey and you need to kind of like, yeah, instead of like, I hate my life, you know, I hate this business. If only I can get to 100K a month, you know, once you get there, then you want more and you want different and I don't even need a hundred, I only need 10, you know, just, it's, the outcome is not, is not, never pays off. So let's talk about the journey. Tell me more about their happiness and confidence and it can be very simple. Feel confidence. I don't know if this is the right terminology, but when we talk with them, it's like, I think that in general yoga teachers would like to say, like they want to have a seat at the table next to physiotherapists, athletic coaches, the chiropractors, massage therapists, like they don't feel like they're worthy of being next to those people, even though they're working on the human body, right, but, and, and largely they aren't worthy of sitting next to that, but they want to. They certainly want to and it's just that nobody's providing them with the training that would actually allow that to occur. So, okay. That's a very, very good point. I don't know the best way to write that, but just for, I wrote something down, but just for sake of argument here, let's take a look at the two different intros we have, okay? And, and you can sort of piece this together. Hey there, my name is Denise and I'm obsessed with creating confident professional yoga teachers who have the expertise to create life-changing transformations for the students. Here's what some people I've worked with have to say, case studies, prior to getting into yoga and eventually becoming the lead teacher for the local YTT program over a decade ago, I spent a lifetime centered around adult education in the health and fitness industry from leading step aerobics. Wow. Aerobics, yeah. Aerobatics, like, oh, okay, cool, classes to personal training, to becoming massage therapists, college structure, eventually the director of massage college. All I could say is that when you are teaching college level anatomy and psychology courses to keen adult minds, you'd better know your stuff because those are questions coming at you fast. I've always, okay. So, at this point, I am not interested. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm sorry. Okay. No, that's fine. Because what, the reason why is because I've, I've peaked at this and this is very good. So we just need to get the plane off the ground a little bit better. That's fine. Okay. Okay. So, hey, my name is Denise and I'm obsessed with creating confident professional yoga teachers who have spent their expertise to create life changing transmission for their students. I work with brand new yoga instructors who are just starting out, experienced yoga instructors who have been doing this for quite some time, and true veteran yoga instructors like myself who have been doing this for more, for decades. Now, I know what you're probably feeling. You're going about your yoga practice and you're feeling extreme self-doubt and the lack of knowledge. You keep hitting a roadblock with your yoga practice, with your experience. You don't quite know if you have the expertise to get to the next level. Maybe you aren't happy with your, with your ever teaching career. Should I have even been doing this in the first place? I've been doing this for five years and really not breaking through, you know, and maybe I'm too new or everybody's teaching yoga and I don't know how to stand out from the competition. Or maybe you're feeling like you're at this eternal crossroad where every time you hit a ceiling with your skills and career, you end up looking for something new to add on. And no matter where you go, you end up right where you are. But I understand where you want to go. You ultimately don't want to do solve any of that. Ultimately, you just want to make a big difference in the lives of the people that you are helping. You want to actually have a seat at the table next to the doctors and the all the people you listed next to the rest of the health and wellness experts. And ultimately, what I really would love for you is to actually have a specific structure and solid method to follow coming from a real pro who's actually done it and done what you want to do. Sound awesome? Not only have I done this for myself, but I've done this for others, testimonies, testimonials. Then you get into the pain points, you see? Yeah. Yeah. So this we're optimizing for retention, okay? And because I just spoke into their soul and extracted everything that they're feeling, I don't need to prove that I'm an authority. Accurate diagnosis always proves that you are an authority. This person's talking to me. It's like they're jumping out of the screen. That sort of stuff is powerful, man. Thoughts, comments, side remarks, questions? Not just from you, but from everybody. Is this sort of helping you reframe kind of the intro of BSLs? Talk to me, guys. Obviously, it's helped me, but if anyone else wants to jump in. Well, I mean, what do you guys think? I feel free to challenge me to it. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's so easy to fall into the trap of starting to talk about yourself. It's so easy to just, especially at the start of something, but yeah, this is great. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a different change of mindset and the way you explained it really clarified that video sales later should be directed at your audience and not surrounding you. Yeah. I really like that. I think maybe it's just me, but I think we have a lot of insecurities about ourselves, so I'll just be for myself. I have a lot of insecurities about myself, and I feel like I need to justify why I'm doing everything that I'm doing and really put forward, you know, trust me, I'm an authority on this. And it's an insecurity, man, like for real. Yeah. And it comes from a place of from trying to prove myself or see my worth or see my value, or I'm really worried about something, or there's a fear and I feel like I have to put that forward. It's not just a strategy on how to write a VSL. It comes from a certain emotional place, I think. Yeah. So this is, this is stuff that we all deal with, I think. The pain points look fine. I mean, they look great. The only thing I would change here is to, I was talking, who was talking about this? I think I was talking about with Joe is you have to be more confrontational in your language. This is a very simple and easy fix. It's super powerful. During my time, I spent training yoga teachers, everything from one to one mentorship to weekend workshops to full programs. Here's some of the problems I've noticed coming up over and over again. And I want you. So insert me. Okay. And I want you to right now figure out which one it is that you are in this journey. I call the first one newly minted yoga teachers. So if this is you, then you rarely feel ready to teach once you've graduated. You're struggling to find your own authentic voice while you're faced with. It's so powerful when somebody talking to you as opposed to they, they, they, okay. It's a super simple fix. So maybe that's not you. Maybe you're listening to that going, yeah, been there, done that. That's been my problems. You don't understand Denise. My real problems are I've been doing this for a few years, right? So the next people that I'm thinking about are experienced yoga teachers. So maybe this is you teachers that have one to three years of experience. If this is you, then pay attention. See if this is you that you are stuck in a rut that your new teacher fears are there and the transition into nagging and positive syndrome that you are feeling that you are told it's perfectly normal and you just have to live with it. And lastly, you know, veteran yoga teachers, if this is you, then you definitely want to listen up. Does this sound like you? You are a teacher who's been doing this for five years, et cetera, et cetera. So you have all of these things, but you just need to get them to feel like, damn, she's talking to me. You know what I mean? Just to, you know, she's talking to some, to some caricature of me. Yeah. Daddy energy in the DSL. I love doing this with ads. I've actually had ad accounts get shut down because I've been too confrontational. Yeah. Like, are you failing at this? You are feeling like this. I am looking for you. You know, that kind of stuff, if you do too much of it, it, there's something in Facebook that doesn't, I don't think you're allowed to do that in a certain degree. Somebody smarter at Facebook ads can tell me that. But I got stuff shut down because I was too confrontational with the ads. Yeah. So this is the only thing to change. Cool. Yeah. I've often, like, I guess, you know, at some time, at some point, I remember reading. It's like, oh, you shouldn't say you because now you're being too prescriptive and telling people what to do and think. But in this case, when you're trying to get people to enroll a program, it makes sense. Oh, dude. I don't know who told you that. Who told you that? I think it was general blog writing stuff back in the day that kind of seeps into your programming. You don't catch it until later. Totally. Yeah. Totally, man. That's the only thing you got to change on the top part. Cool. Yeah. I don't know why this is freaking. Is this making sense? Is this good? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to keep going. Like if other people got questions or whatever, I, um, but, uh, yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. There's a couple of people talking that have their mics muted. I'm looking at you, Joe. Maybe he's on a call or something. What is going on with Joe? Okay. Never mind. Joe. Are you talking to us? No. Okay. Cool. He's just like, Oh, is he talking to us? Um, okay, guys, I hope that you're, that this is like infusing. Into your veins for a second as you go and make your own stuff. You know, and I hope you're able to see that nothing is a one for one transferable thing. Okay. So I'm, I'm very contextualized to Mark, you know, it's not like, great. I'm going to go make a new VSL. And I'm just, you know, copy, paste, pain points to, you know, hold on. Which part in your journey are you? Okay. In terms of, you know, house sophisticated of the market, you know, have you sold things before, et cetera, et cetera, you know, who is this going to? Is it cracking cold? Is it to your list? You know, are you B2B is a B2C? All of these factors come into play to have this kind of thing, but Mark's experienced enough to know that this is the, the really good framework that works for him. Okay. Here's why these problems exist. Okay, I have some thoughts on that, but I'm going to go into this first. We might not even need this. Okay. I feel like I need to do like a training on just how to turn really good copy and offers and content into just stuff that smacks you over the head. I would love to, you know, I'm doing it in like incubator, like having how to make things just all sexy, but I feel like we need to cover this who we want. Okay. This is great. This is really good. We needed to change the intro to hook people in. The rest of it doesn't match the potency and the specificity of this. Okay. So we have this, which calls people out and touches on their motions. We have this now, which is perfect. We just need to change it to you. Okay. Then we have the industry problems, which is explaining, which is we've lost touch a little bit. We've sort of, we've taken ourselves out of the conversational confrontation thing and just decided to start talking about things and educate. Okay. Yep. So, what are YTTs? Yoga teacher training. Got it. Yeah. It's like a 200 hour program or a 300 hour program. It's kind of the basic standard thing. This whole like intro, pain points, industry problems, three pillars, three phases, who we want. Is that like a Mariah thing? No, no. The three phases comes from you who we want to add it in there to try to make sure that we don't get the info collectors, the three pillars thing, I just felt like we need to explain that this is more than just a yoga practice. And yeah, so the pain points is mostly from the pain points thing is the most from Mariah, but the green, the industry problems. The reason that's there is especially because the intensity of the of the emotion that these teachers feel around, not having their success or whatever, like at the end of the the first, sorry, they at the end of the pain points of the actual teachers, I created something that I was calling a healing bomb, which is basically saying like, these problems that you're having are not your fault. It's not like all problems that you're having are the symptom of a greater problem in the entire yoga industry. And it's the training that you guys are going through that can't solve these problems, right? Especially for for women and stuff. I felt like it was important for them to know like it's not your fault. It's not that you're stupid because some of these people have been hearing the same curriculum for years and it's it doesn't click. And so then they start to think, well, I must not be that smart. I'm not cable, whatever. It's like, no, no, no, not your faults. The fault lies with the industry, the educational complex that you're a part of. Got it. And then I thought we could point that stuff out to them because they don't they don't see it or nobody's talking about it anyways. I love it. So this transition is the reason this problem exists is because of all of the education in the market and the industry that is trying to help you is failing. Let me prove it to you. Yes. Yeah. And it's like, you know, industry problems to them. They would go like, you know, the fact that I'm pointing out that, you know, some people will take a 20 like a three week program eight eight to 10 hours a day. And at the end of it, there's supposed to be a yoga teacher. And you know, if we're pointing out that listen, like nobody teaches like that, like, especially when it comes to the human body, like how are you spot possibly supposed to absorb everything that you need to absorb in 21 days, like it can't be done. But yet that's one of the main models of teaching. And so I was hoping that that would like these things I'm thinking anyways would resonate with them of like, yeah, and these are our only options and whatever. But you're free to do whatever you want with this. That's, that's for sure. I want to get your input, obviously. Well, what this is doing is it's very obviously educating them that there are you yoga train. What is yoga teaching? Yoga teacher training. So yoga teacher training programs. And you're assuming that they've all gone through them. That's what this is explaining to me. Yes, yeah, yeah, that it's there. We are targeting yoga teachers, not yoga students. I get that. But have these yoga teachers purchased training programs in the past? For sure. Yeah. For sure. Okay. Got it. Wonderful. Yeah, because you can't just start a yoga training class here or through some of the training. Well, yeah, I don't know how deep in the weeds you want to get it with with the industry, but I don't. Yeah. There's a set. Yeah. Sorry. There's a set curriculum that this organizational body has and they've decided and everybody. Who are they? What are they called? Yoga Alliance is what it's called and they're supposed to be last them. Well this is. It's just, I know that Denise, like she, I'm always having to be held back from picking fights. Oh, okay. Hold on. When you, when you, I know we're on to something special when somebody looks this way to see if somebody else is listening. She's upstairs. She can't hear me. Well, this is good. We're touching on something that that maybe we can integrate into this. So I was wondering like, why in the world is this a whole section? What's going on? I've found it. There's this thing called Yoga Alliance is what you said you called. It's called? Yeah. Yoga, yeah. Yoga Alliance. Yeah. It's the main thing. It's supposed to be. Yeah. It doesn't have the same legitimacy that like an association of doctors would have, but they're trying, but some people are starting to not get interested in it because they, they're solving problems. So this reminds me of what we're talking about the top of this call, which are the belief systems that are keeping people from moving forward, whether or not you exist or not, or if what you have is exactly what they need. Is this touching on that? In other words, they're answering to move forward with anything because they've tried other programs because this industry is flooded with this Yoga Alliance thing that doesn't work. If that's the case, then this is how we eliminate these belief systems. Yeah, I believe that that's, that's what it would do like because these are their only options that they have for their education and they're quickly forced to just do the same thing over and over again, right? Yeah. Okay, got it. High level, this, I'm bringing like a different perspective that I'm not in the industry. So I'm looking at this from a completely different world. I'm looking at this going like, just focus on things that are at a higher stratosphere as opposed to chunking down. So the higher stratosphere is something like industry problems, U problems, market problems or something like this. So instead of having a whole section on industry problems, it's like, don't worry, it's not your fault. It's a third your fault. There's these three things that are doing, that are keeping you from these things. So the belief system. So one, the market is saturated with garbage training that don't teach you how to do XYZ. Yoga Alliance is one of them, whatever, they suck because of this, whatever. When you do this, it makes you feel like this, which leaves you this, like all of that language is super important. And then there's the U problem, whatever that might be. And you can just say like, you don't know, you don't know, you don't need to humiliate them. And then three is like market problems. The problem with this is that not the entire market doesn't have a system to make a lot of money in this. It's either one on one classes, it's by the hour, it's whatever. But once you utilize this thing that we teach, which is between you and me, it's these awesome workshops that we do for a weekend, right, that that's will be the magic combination. So these are the three things that are keeping you from having XYZ. So I look at it as like, let's just remain high level and like chunk down on those things. And then when you go to the three pillars back to be at a sauna, as well as the three phases, as well as who we want, they just need to be way more punchy and specific. You know, I don't see any so that you can, and then once you'll be able to, you will feel X and once you feel X, you will consistently get this. I don't see any of that language in here. So this is what I mean by educate versus sell versus, yeah. So maybe a good example of this is the first way is the goal back to the sauna practice is to give yoga suits clear, predictable path between them. Okay, the skills, okay, got it, the short term, the goal is to, okay, so these, they're just repeat, you're repeating yourself, you have to pick one of these, or long term, this creates an outcome we call hard forms, aging, we're just educating, which maintains the body's ability to move, who cares, right? I'm still waiting for the who cares, right? The active enterprise takes inspiration from the world's top, okay, got it, okay. Help students unlock postures, okay, who cares? I want to know why that's important, okay, this is your unique way of getting to what it is that they want. Let's talk about what it is that they want. This is making sense. So the first pillar is activated sauna as a result space, style of yoga, high level, okay, first pillar is you need to understand the specific type of yoga that you need to be addressing and educating and understanding and becoming an expert at. Once you do that, you will feel like you are actually making a difference in the lives of people. You will move from amateur to expert. You will have a specific practice that you can repeat over and over again that isn't the same as everybody else. You won't have any more self-doubt or lack of knowledge of what it is that you're teaching. Okay, you see what I'm saying? Yes. It's so people are just like, hell yeah, I want it, I want that. I don't really care how you get me there. I just want that, okay? And then there's pillar two, the second pillar is movement system. Okay, activations, facial lines, yeah, this is just educating. Right. So scalable, she's principal, senior citizen. That word should be performed, sir. So you're educating them on what activated the sun is. Got it. So again, chunking up a little bit. So we have industry problems, people problems, or market problems, you problems as an example, okay? For this, it's like the mechanism, which is activated asana, okay? That's one thing, not the three things about this. That's one thing. There's a couple other mechanisms that make you guys awesome. So it sounds like it's some sort of workshops or frameworks or predictability around learning how to actually teach the business model as opposed to just the skill set. So it's like activated asana expertise, business model expertise, and then like scaling expertise or sustainability expertise or improvement expertise or something like this. So it's like once you identify these three problems, here's the solution to actually get this all in place. First you need to get activated asana dial in. So you boil down all three of these pillars into like, you know, one or two little points under this three point section. First it's activated asana. And here are the benefits of learning activated asana, which is what I just said to you, right? And then there's a second piece, which isn't anywhere yet. And we're going to get to the three phases here, but the second phase is like not only this, but you need a structure to put the activated asana into that'll actually make you money and predictability and confidence and expertise. The structure that we propose is are these workshops. So no more one on ones, no more, you know, any of this stuff. It's these workshops. What's great about these workshops is you can charge upwards of $600 per person per weekend, you know, so just do the math 600 times 30. That's whatever that is, you know, in one weekend, like once you were able to hit that, you don't now you don't need to rely on these one on ones anymore. You can transition it to be a real expert. You can make some real income, which will give you happiness, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it's just like we're punching them a little bit more. You see what I mean? I forget what the third one was that I said, but scaling slash improvement expertise. Yeah. I like to think of it as solving future problems, right? Solving future. Yeah. It's once you're there. Now you put an imagination into them that's you're going to have so much dang money. What are you going to do with it? You know, just that kind of crap is I don't know if I'll be able to handle that many clients, you know, I only wanted one vacation home. Now I need to get three. You know, obviously that's not what you're going to say, but you're solving future problems that are really good things to solve. You're replacing these problems. Okay, then there's the three phases of what it is that you actually do. So this is, so at this point, you're probably wondering what the path looks like to doing all this. Okay. For what it's worth, take out anything that about program or course or any of this because you just talked forever about how programs don't work. And now you're going to convince them that your program does. You need to remove the tool, the mechanism, the program, you're not just another program. You're a process. You're different than everybody else. As you move to this three phases, now you're talking to them. And a new teacher comes on board to work with us, as opposed to joins our program. You start out as a trainee phase, you know. Let's see here three lessons of career, nine, everything, okay. We only have one sentence that chunks down on the emotional phase. That reassurance that your understanding is at an elite level. We need more language of once you're able to do this, then you'll be able to do this, which will make you feel like this. Hey, well, you see what I mean? Yeah. So when you're saying once you're able to do this, then you'll be able to do this. Like that is what you're talking about earlier on the call when you said sexy language. Yeah. Like this entire video needs to have that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Denise knows what she's doing. If she accurately diagnoses, all of the authority will come to fruition. Like it'll all be there, you know, lean more into the sexy language. Yeah. This is a video sales letter, you know, not a webinar. It's not a training. Once you hit trainee, then like I need to know like what my life's going to be like, how much money am I going to be making? Am I happiness level is going to be, you know, paint a picture and you have such amazing imagination and language around around how to communicate this in a way that taps into the imagination. It's really good. Just lean into it. Once you hit trainee, you'll move on to apprentice after you've done all these things. Again, this unlocks a new set of curriculum. It's to feature based. Let's move it into a phase base. You'll now have the skills and tools to unlock, you know, to the next phase of your journey or something. That solidifies your expertise. So if I got the same techniques, homework, get rid of that and we like some work. Okay, because we were like, that's going to be a big part of it is that they've got to be showing us, but just don't talk about it on the call. No, like you don't get commitment out of somebody by saying like, are you sure you want to join? There's going to be lots of homework. As you get them excited about the journey that they're on, which motivates them to do the homework. Okay. Okay. You see? Yeah. Once they're in, it's like, I'll freaking do the homework. Yeah. All right. You'll take your first group of students to actually watch. Oh, this is great. Within 45 days or qualitative and quantitative, right? Within 45 days, you will have your first group of students that'll each pay you $300 for the weekend. So what we're going to try to do is get you 15 of those students. So 15 times 300, that'll equal XYZ in your first weekend. Well, 99% of people that work with us get there within 45 days, you're going to watch the results unfold before you have our eyes, pockets of money, collect some testimonials, build your website. This is great. No more program, no more homework, no more valuations are expensive to see if you just don't want to also become one started. So we built a solution. Do you guys like design websites and stuff? I do. I have because I had to, but yeah, they had such a problem. The beta students had such a problem with some of the tech that I was like, you know what? What if I just gave everyone a website they could write a bio? Yeah. That's great. So then it's like, okay, now I'm painting a picture like I have all these testimonials. I've made all this money and they're going to like build me this custom website to solve my future problems. I've pocketed this much money. I have the confidence once I go through phase two, going back to this, you'll finally feel like you have a seat at the table next to the rest of the health and wellness experts. You'll hit a brand new ceiling with not only your income, but your skills. You'll reimagine your entire career from that point forward. You'll have the confidence after you just pocketed that much money based off of very little information that we gave you. You won't have any more self doubt. You know what I mean? Like double down on that. Okay. Then the next thing, the last thing is next, you'll be a full blown educator. This better solves some future problems. The educator phase of this journey involves communicating your newfound knowledge of students the way a big picture applies for your own life. This one needs to be educator. You'll choose sort of frameworks or the workshop curriculum, these exchange pages. I've never been in my life. This is cool. Program, homework, videos, you're triggering too many features. You don't want to, you don't want to. Yeah. All right. I thought that I was qualifying the types of people that would join the program, but I guess we're not doing that. No. This way. Okay. By this time in the program, you'll done, you have done enough homework videos that it's really simple to pivot to sharing knowledge, community, invite them to learn more. Are you going to fill up your workshops, new people are going to work and encourage to join your class to be doing the wait list before you knew it? Yeah. It just needs to be sexier, man. By this time, yeah, by this time of the program, you'll complete all your homework is not exciting enough for me. I was never the teacher. Well, I guess, yeah, what I was like, a lot of them have hang ups on making videos and stuff like that to promote themselves. And so the idea was like, if we get you guys to be making videos in the beginning of the program, share it with us by the time you're actually a business person, you're not even going to think about it. That's what I was trying to convey there. Totally. Who they will, if you've motivated them and got them bought into their journey and the outcome and all of those things, then they will pay money and they will do whatever it is that you tell them to do. That motivation will push them through as opposed to before you really think about this, there's going to be lots of videos. Okay. You see what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Dude, I had in the mastering program, I had people build literally from the ground up entire mastering studios, like people ripping out walls, dude, putting up like it was insane. Literally like, Hey, like my wife is like killing me because I just redid my entire garage. And I don't tell them any of that on the sales call. But I tell them that within the program, but they're so excited about it because we talked about what it is that they're going to do once it's built. You see, yeah, I've got like literally probably thousands of pictures of like people's rooms being blown up, you know, I don't talk about any of that. I do say in the VSL or did say, you know, by this stage, you will have an entirely perfect and complete mastering studio dialed in to your liking with so that your ears are finely tuned. And it's perfectly tuned. There's no flat frequency. There's a flat frequency response, which benefit keeps you from going to the car and listening to the car test, et cetera, develops the feedback loop so that you're more confident in your mixes, et cetera, et cetera. Like, I don't say by this stage, we're going to rip out some drywall and put some insulation in. That'll give you the ears you want. You know what I mean? Like I just go to the outcome. So this is cool, man. This is like by the end of this, you got something really cool. It's like you have a badass website. You've got a thriving business. You've got the frameworks workshop thing that we just give to you. And then any of the pain points that come with these future problems, you just say that you solved them. So I know this sounds like a lot like websites and videos. And am I going to have any support? Don't worry. We will literally copy and paste all of those templates into whatever you're doing so that you never need to think about that. You just need to focus on being the educator and making money. Okay. Yeah. And that's basically it. You can say this is quite rigorous. So I don't want tire kickers and info consumers. And then you get into this is perfect for and this is, yeah, good temp checking, get out program, take out all this stuff, course, curriculum, unlocks, get rid of all that. You want to really stay away from the mechanisms and the features, triggering the features part of the brain is no bueno. Okay. At some point, we'll make a list of examples of mechanisms and features. So that every well, if you want the list, just copy and paste this, dude. You have you've got program, computer, yeah, tablet, phone, recordings, homework, assignments, curriculum, course, program, videos, it's all over. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. I'm coming down hard on you. No, no, it's fine. It's fine. So if you want to have extreme self doubt and then more self doubt, no more knowledge. Make a big difference lives. People are helping make this much money have a seat at the table. These are the things they want, right? So yeah, man, it's all there. It's all there. Just like, let's, let's make it punchier. Let's get people excited. All right, I can do that. Other than that, I haven't really thought about it. What would be better way to qualify people joining the program versus what Mark did? Are you going to do sales calls or no sales calls for this? I'm asking me, well, based on our conversation last time, I think that we're going to not do that. So I was thinking like VSL application application. Thank you video. If they're approved, then I would probably send them to a new page that I was thinking of it just being like, here's a website tour just so that you know that everything we said was real. That's what my first instinct was. But I don't really know. It feels like there should be another video that they see after they've been accepted if we're not going to do sales calls. Yeah, the question becomes, is the learning curve of doing it a different way? More painful than the downside of doing it the way that you're familiar with. Yeah, like, well, like we talked about, we can do whichever one doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter. Like we'll both Denise and Angela, the other sales person, they'll do sales calls or we can just do the DM stuff like whatever works, you know. Are you doing ads or is this to your list? Well, I figured we'd start with the list just to try to get some quick wins. But I am 100% down with running ads. I did a lot of it with the low ticket and I want to do it again. Cool. So you'll need to, you'll need defense pretty heavily at the end here because they've made it all the way to the end. The people that are ready to move forward are there, you know what I mean? So what is fence? Fence is, yeah, it's just the filtration system, right? So if it's, if anybody can get in and they will, if you lock up the fence a little bit more, you have a tighter filter. Great. Yeah. So you don't really want to add sales resistance and, or sorry, you don't want to add, you don't have fence, like right at the beginning, right? You know, okay, I'm, Hey, I'm Denise. Jump off of this video if you are, you don't want to do that. But because you're at the end, it's like, all right, I'm actually talking to the people I wanted. Now I can start fencing. So if you made it all the way through, you know, you want to work, there's just a couple things you need to know, you know, this is, this is, this isn't going to be free or cheap. Like I don't want people who are, who are just tire kickers, you know, I want people who are motivated and committed. Don't move forward unless, unless you, like, if you're not going to do a sales call, you have to fence it pretty hard, dude. Really hard with the sales call model, it's the exact opposite language. It's like, don't worry about it. Even if we can't help you still book a call, it means literally what you say. Like either way, it'll be super valuable. You'll get a free game plan, you'll know exactly what to do. Like you literally don't have to say yes to anything at the very least, you'll know exactly what to do moving forward, totally free, still book call. If you're still on the fence, just book call anyways. So that takes care of all of that. But now you have to really rely on the sales call to really get them over the fence. So, again, is the pain of the learning curve of that worth the downside of what you currently know? And that's a question for you. Yeah, I don't, I don't really know the answer, I guess. I can see the advantages of, like, if I can pull it off without sales calls, then that would be great, because now I'm not having to look at scaling a sales team and stuff like that. Or I don't know how much you can push those that, you know, I don't, yeah, I don't have an answer to this question, I don't think. Great. How do you find me answer this question? I would say that I'd probably want to start by just fixing the VSL and implementing everything you said and then look at it and be like, okay, now is this at a point where we can, we could get, we could just do no sales calls, like, that would be my intuition. I'm curious as to everyone here, I want, I want like, can I do like a vote, like a casting a vote, I don't think I can, body slam, what's happening, I can just ask, sales calls, no sales calls, it seems like lots of people are split on this. Like when somebody says, you can do this without sales calls, it excites some people. And then there's like, you get on a sales call and it's like, I'm really excited to learn sales calls, you know, where are you guys out with all this? If you could do all of this without sales calls, is that like the greatest thing ever? Help me, help me, I'm trying to understand this. Sales calls, okay, we've got one vote for sales calls. I know that sales calls, I know that's what you do, but like if you would rather not do it, would you rather not do it? Like which one do you ultimately would love to do? I'll put it another way, if you could wave a magic wand and sell things with sales calls or without sales calls, and it was exactly what you wanted to do, which one did you do? Okay, so Todd wants to wave a magic wand and still do sales calls, Marcel wants to be the manager on not do this, Brandon wants to do sales calls, even with the magic wand, Mark no sales calls, or there's no sales calls, it seems it's a general belief that calls convert better. Again, we're working with a magic wand, okay, if you could wave a magic wand, regardless of all these general beliefs, would you or would you not do it? But if they are qualified before it is awesome, so I would laptop lifestyle, okay, okay, yeah, four hour work week, magic wand no calls, okay, so it sounds like the only person who wants to wave a magic wand and do sales calls is Todd. So Todd, you have the floor. Blake, I was going to ask you what your journey was like doing sales calls and the data and sort of understanding of human psychology behind your potential clients, how that increased and how that maybe changed your offer or your understanding of approaching the whole thing. So I only did sales calls with the music offer. Only didn't sales calls. So everything was optimized for that, yeah. The only time it was great was when I had a team running the sales calls. That was the only time I got the time back. But imagine if you had an offer or if you were in an industry that couldn't facilitate thousands of dollars a month on ad spend and filling the calendars of three to four people. Imagine if you just simply are not in an industry to do that, then I think it's a better way to completely ignore the sales calls thing. But in terms of personally, what I learned about human psychology and so forth, I wouldn't trade it for the world as the greatest thing ever, yeah, I can now help people who have a sales call, you know what I mean? And did it change your program or your approach to marketing your program at all? 100%. Yes, if I were to remove sales calls, it would have been like taking the queen out of the chessboard. I'd have to play much differently. Yeah, I quite like doing that, like identifying what the queen is and then taking it out. I think the sales calls are the magic ones in a lot of cases. That's true because in this industry, if you guys have been here for long, I think the info space used to be webinar, like people just show up and it sells on autopilot and I just made a bunch of sales, I put money in ads and it sells itself and laptop lifestyle. But the problems that arise are refund rates are through the roof. Client success is way, way, way, way, way down. Client margins are very low and you can't determine who's brought in, which I guess is just client results, right? So that's it, and you can't improve on whatever product you have because you don't have a feedback loop. You're not listening, so you're completely out of touch with your market. So all of those things are problems and I agree with you, Aliyash, if you wave a magic wand, you're right. The sales calls fix that because if you can talk to everybody that you get buying and the client success is up, refund rate is below 1% higher profitability, it fixes everything. Feedback loop is tighter, et cetera, et cetera, however, you have new problems. Sales team. Now you're dealing with people, you have to employ people. So it's just a whack-a-mole game, dude. It's just, you solve this problem and then here's the next problem. Ivan, do you mind speaking to this or no? When have you taken the queen out of the chessboard? Oh, dude. I feel like everything I'm doing with college is constantly taking the queen off the chessboard. That was more so. What do you want to know? We want the inside secrets. What inside secrets do you want to know? I'm totally transparent. It's fine. I don't want to just talk though, I want to try to be more helpful. But yeah, I've taken it. Joe, and you're Mike. Joe is a keyboard monkey. He's not going to. He's hiding. I find a very offensive lake. I know. That's why I said it. I wanted to elicit a response out of you. He was good. He was good. Yeah. So you said in college, with college, all you're doing is taking the queen off the chessboard. What does that mean? What does that look like to people who do sales scores or people who do? What does that mean? It's saying no to the things that scale very quickly and saying yes to the things that drill down into bedrock and build a foundation. That's basically it. Okay. So I kind of guess where you're going with this, but to make that more clear to somebody doesn't have context. What would be a thing which is creating a foundation versus scaling fast? Like an example? Yeah. Well, let's look at what scaling fast looks like. And then we'll just go the opposite, right? So what scaling fast looks like is right now I would make a VSL. And right now I would pull my line of credit or my cash and just throw money into ads. And right now I would train a few closers. And right now I'd pocket hundreds of thousands of dollars a month from day one. Okay. So like that's just the if anybody's wondering how to make a lot of money in this space, just do that. It'll it'll get you to where you want to go pretty fast. It's pretty simple actually. You don't need an audience. You just make a great VSL, have a great offer, have some experience in the industry. Particularly if you have true expertise in the market and you are actually helping people in real life, not in like this fake online world. If all of that's there, make a VSL, make a landing page, get a book, a call funnel going, sell a program more than $3,000 and you'll immediately make 50 game on consistently doing this. Okay. If that's, yeah, sorry, gone. Yeah. So there's something I wanted to say really quick. When I first got into like the online space, you know, I have a film background. So I didn't really know too much about marketing, but I always thought you had to build audience. So that was kind of my first thing to always do, just build an audience. But recently I've been working with just a couple of folks that do films. Has anybody seen the movie Skinnamarink? Okay, it's a film that he made for $15,000, it made $2.1 million in the box office. And it's just a guy and a couple of kids, he made it by himself. And what he did was very simple. He pretty much took the video sales letter method, but applied that to film studios. Film studios didn't take him seriously, so I was like, well, why don't I do this to movie theaters? He did the same type of video sales letter, but instead he told the movie theaters, hey, I want you to collect most of the profit from the film. I just want my film to be seen. And if people like it, they'll talk about it. Well, his film was so unique, people started talking about it, spreading it around a bit. And this film was released, I believe, two months ago, three months ago. But he's been a YouTuber for like five years or something like that, but he took that idea from the video sales letter and applied it to the film industry and it worked for him really good. But the most important thing that I'd have to say about that is that he got on the phone and built relationships with the movie theater owners, not just film studios, not just the power of relationships you build when you're on a phone call is like insurmountable, you know, too much people think quantity matters. But I worked with around, like, I think 14 filmmakers and all 14 of those filmmakers have a future film in the theaters. So quality matters a lot more when you actually look into this business world. That's what I'm starting to realize. So you basically saying that focusing on like quality top tier first, close connections is kind of like the way to go as opposed to quantity because you don't need a lot of people. You just need the right people and people think that, well, there was only people in Hollywood that could do this type of stuff wrong. There's people all over the planet that have these skills. And the only problem is they just need to apply it for the industry that we're using it for or whatever industry you guys are using it for. With the power of relationships building those connections, it's just so important in my industry. I think it's important in every industry. Is that what you're trying to get out, like where you're saying you're focusing more on the relationships first? How do you see that linking into more brand answers? Yeah, so there seems to be this thing going around that's the way that you do this is you go get tons of audience, big following, you focus on quantity, and then you tease out like selling some sort of lower priced, lower ticket thing just to see where they're at, lead magnet, right, and then you kind of go up from there and go, there's this brand new thing that I'm doing and it's a higher priced thing. And then at the end of that, you find your quality people VIP people with some high end mastermind and in that order. I'm basically doing the exact opposite is, and I think I think lots of people should, to be honest, is like it's a myth. It's just silly. I said, this is like so silly, I keep saying this, I sold my online education business with seven subscribers on YouTube, not started sold. So you do not need an audience to do this. I busted that myth for me big time, but what I did see is that an audience, you have more flexibility with how you sell down the road. That's all that I've seen. However, you just flip it on its head. So I wrote it here, luxury mid-ticket and then quantity. So the luxury thing is like, what's the highest priced top tier best thing that I can possibly do for anybody in any industry? Build relationships there, get results there, start there, have that be the prototype, not the audience, not the low ticket. Like that top tier luxury thing is the prototype of the business. And once you've kind of massaged that, now you can build out some sort of mid-price thing, which honestly is still more expensive than most higher priced things in this industry. And then you focus on quantity afterwards. And it goes about that way. So you're building from a place of quality and luxury and actually relationships first as opposed to the keyboard monkey, I'm hiding behind a keyboard, I don't have a relationship with anybody, I'm just going to build an audience and then sell, like it's just, it's not sustainable. Yeah, it kind of sounds like the Tesla model. Exactly. They did that roadster, I think, right? Yeah. Yeah. And now it connects the dot to what Brandon is saying is that I think the issue with that is that you actually have to be good at what you're doing. You also have to be good at communicating it as well, because those top tier people are not going to entertain your shitty movie, right? So you have to make good product, build authority, as you say, by communicating it properly as well. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that. No, you're right. If you don't have that, then go build an audience, not to build an audience though, but to find your voice and to find what you're good at. But if you don't know what you're good at, if you already know what you're good at, it's a distraction. Mm. So when you think about taking the queen off the chessboard in the context of college, is that because you're taking that roadster Tesla approach and then it changes everything exactly. Whereas the old models geared towards people who just want to make money online, basically, maybe I'm not skilled. That's right. And I'm just interested in coaches, coaching, coaching for coaches, marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing, sales, so I'm just interested in that completely. The only thing I care about is all of this underground talent who have 10 years of experience in something who are really good at what they do, and they validated it in the real world, not in this weird online world. And how do you take that person and build something that's massively at scale? And if you take that person, then you can take that approach. But if you take somebody like, hey, you anybody and you want to make money online, then you cannot take this approach because they don't have any expertise. They have no background. They have no secret sauce. So you have to do this quantity, audience building thing first to find your voice and then scale up from there. But I'm not interested at all in that, frankly. Okay. I've got a very challenging question for you. So you are a millennial or gen, I don't know what you call it, gen Z, gen X or ever kid, and you grew up on the internet. You have no physical friends. You have no expertise. Are you talking about me? No, no. It's a hypothetical. Okay. Because what do you do? Because so many people are growing up online now where they don't develop these motor skills. These expertise, all they can do is be a keyboard monkey. So what do you do then? What do you think that answer is? Yeah, I've experienced lots of anxiety transitioning to this online world big time. I think lots of those keyboard monkeys probably deep down feel a lot of pain, a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress. Yeah. This is, this is why I think, you know, you see online imposter syndrome, right, right? And it's kind of funny because if you have really been under a very strong pedigree, you have a strong mentorship, you come from a strong lineage. I don't think you will feel imposter syndrome that much because you're already, you're already certified, you know, yep. Yeah. Yeah. When I was doing, you know, sorry, I'll go on. No, no, no, no. Please continue to hurt us. I, I do think we all struggle with this imposter syndrome thing. Okay. See, Mark, good luck with that. I do think that we all struggle with imposter syndrome because it, I think we're supposed to talk about it. It's how you, it's actually how you get rid of imposter syndrome by talking about it. It's like one of the things that you do, but man, I don't know. When I, when I made my first VSL ever, this is a long time ago, I was talking to a camera like a psycho trying to sell something online. It felt very strange because it felt inauthentic, et cetera, et cetera, but I definitely did not feel like an imposter because I had a decade of experience, tens of thousands of songs under my belt records on the wall. I was, it was in the real life. And I knew that if people just knew that, that, that it was almost like, I don't give a crap if, if I don't sell this, I know it works. You know, that I think confidence is what people connected with connected to. But if you don't have that, then it's difficult. Can we define imposter syndrome just to make sure that we're on the same page or the term? Yeah, it's, it's, it's when you feel like somebody's going to come knocking your door and say, the jig is up, stop acting. I actually know who you really are. You know, you can't keep getting away with what you're doing. That's imposter syndrome. Okay. So if we take it to the example of what you said, I was writing a VSO and I felt like an imposter. How did you feel like an imposter in that situation? Because you had all this evidence. What was the difference? I said, I did not feel like an imposter. I felt like a psycho. Oh, okay. Sorry. I miss heard. Why did you feel like a psycho? Because I'm transitioning online. Yeah. So like the move online is, is one of the shifts. So in this world, man, it's like the shift from being an expert to selling things through services is a huge shift or an expert and, and being an entrepreneur is another shift. You know, all of these shifts, shifts happen. And then the next shift is selling something online. And then another shift is selling a different fulfillment mechanism, like a product as opposed to a service, right? All of these shifts happen and at each one of those stages, you'll feel like a, like a weirdo, you know, but where you'll feel even more like a freaking weirdo is if you're not an expert at anything and you skip services and you skip helping people and you skip being professional and all this stuff and you just try to sell something online, like a psycho, that personal feels unbelievable anxiety and imposter syndrome because they are an imposter. Yeah. And so for those kids or younger people who grew up online and they don't have that deep well of, you know, experienced, what do you suggest for those type of people? Is their expertise actually navigating that digital world and not selling a product? Like what do you suggest to them? Because I guess they feel kind of lost, you know, they kind of, yeah. I have a lot of respect for these kids and by these kids, I basically mean anybody under 30 to be honest with you. Not that I'm 31. So I can get away with, I'm not in that category, I've strategically said that. But no, I just mean Gen Z's or people that have grown up online. I'm very torn on this because I have a lot of respect for them. Those kids will take over this everybody else because they're able to navigate stuff online. So I have a lot of respect for them. But my honest answer is to basically do two things. One is to unplug from the online world and go try to make some friends in real life. There's a reason why the highest priced masterminds are in person. There's something incarnational about it that we need to embrace. This goes deep down into like what I believe theologically too is in order to have complete intimacy. There needs to be flesh. There needs to be, you know, connection on a human level, right? I don't mean a digital cosmic level. So that needs to happen. Can I just want to ask about that because I've always thought about this question, like in the pandemic, what is the difference between Zoom, learning through Zoom and learning in person? Because obviously I'm not in that generation, but for a millennial, whatever you call them, they don't know any other way. And they think the default is to learn through Zoom and they don't know the magic of learning in person from a master. And so that point about intimacy being in the flesh. Can you expand on that more? I think it's super interesting. If I do, I'm going to lose everybody and it's going to be incredibly philosophical. And I need to be careful. But... These people are smart, bro. I know. I know that. Yes, sir. Um, well, I don't necessarily look at it as just learning or the best way to learn. But if you look at all of the great sort of masters or people who have really made a difference in the world, and of course I'm talking about Gandhi, Jesus, my subscription is Jesus, but all of those guys and gals, great saints, great world leaders, et cetera, et cetera. Their lessons kind of ripple through society, for sure. So you can basically say that the like cosmic knowledge or education at scale is happening. So it's not like, you know, we just just poo poo zoom. Zoom is a really great leveraged way to communicate things at scale. But there's something special about something incarnational, something that's in the flesh that touches you. And it's actually incredibly underleveraged, very underleveraged. The thing is... Can I ask something? Yeah, sure. How many people actually fly out to their clients and like talk to them one on one? I do. And how do you feel when you do that? Like, do you feel like a connection being made? Do you feel the brotherhood being built like? And that's something that I realized my mentors did before. I started doing that too, and like that connection's so powerful, you know? I think everybody who's done it, who's been with their client physically, even if you're just helping them out, I think we could all agree that like, that's kind of like that brotherhood we all, or at least our ancestors used to have when they're hunting, when they're out, you know, just being what they had to do, you know? Brandon, how old are you, brother? 29. 29. So you're like very similar to our age, right? You're like one year younger. If you... I think, you know, the interesting thing is, I don't know if you're an observed kid, so like 16, 23, 24, they are complete, they're very gifted, but they're completely different. Like that five years is like what you just said, they don't have any context or window into that, because their parents are outside, they never been in a place, they never been on the set, they're just living in a screen, bro, you know, like, have you had context into that? 29. Yeah, you know, I have a whole bunch of my girlfriend's Filipino, she has families, that's around that age, and yeah, I have to agree with that, but there's something different to kids that are being homeschooled to a parent that cares, because I used to look at them a little differently when I was growing up, but seeing how they are as adults now, seeing how well they function, how well they build relationships, and the fact that they take it super importantly, I mean, they reach success a lot younger than most people in our public schools and stuff, and that's something that I notice all the time, especially in the film industry, because if you haven't noticed most actors, a lot of directors, believe it or not, they're homeschooled. Yeah, no, I absolutely agree, like, a lot of the prodigies, they have a strong support system. Yeah. So what about the ones without a strong support system, who don't have that support, who are just left alone with the tablets and all of this kind of stuff, what do you think about that? I think that's the dangerous combination. Yeah. I'm curious to hear what Julian said, Julian, sorry, I didn't mean it, but Julian, it's just something really interesting, I'm curious to hear you explain that a little bit, if you could. Sure, yeah. Yeah, it was about question, like, why is it so powerful to meet in person or meet them at a luncheon dinner? And like, that's just my experience from, yeah, living at a meditation retreat center and hanging out with the teachers there, like, that made a huge difference for me, because I could actually see them like being really calm and peaceful and happy in everyday life. Because I think otherwise, you can always think, oh, maybe they're just like, there's no one to teaching or, you know, when they're presenting, but when you see them like in everyday life and you see, they're just a normal person. And also maybe they have all these ways of behaving like they're human, right? And you see maybe they have, like, flaws to the savour, they're just normal humanists and hits you like, wow, they're just like me, you know, and I'm not so different than I maybe think I am from them. And yeah, I think that's a really powerful aspect of it. Something a lot of filmmakers ask me is, where can I find investors? Where do I like meet the people that actually invest into films? And it's the easiest answer, to be honest, it's just film festivals. But you have to fly out there to go to them. And if you go to them, start meeting people, start introducing yourself. It's as easy as just saying your name. And you'll start building a connection with people that invest into films. These are people that obviously have the money to do it. So it's not a hard thing to do. And this is why I tell people all the time, even if you're just starting now, invest into flying out to your clients, even if they haven't paid, just so you could get them a result. Because you doing that will show that, hey, this person is really invested into me. And that's something we all, I mean, we all appreciate, we all can't deny, you know? And building a brotherhood we need nowadays is something that you can't achieve online. You can only achieve it when you're actually in person and you're physically there with the other person going through the process with you. Something I can add from my business, I have. So for about like six or seven years, I only did basically brick and mortar style business. I have an office and people would come in person to my office and I would do the paperwork and those kinds of things as a financial advisor. Then COVID hit and I moved online 100% to a logic sting. But my closing rate being down from like 95%, 90% to like 10%, 20%. And also my meeting rate had to go up to like five meetings where before it used to be like two meetings. So I found the commitment was a lot higher. Like when a person agrees to that initial meeting, they also don't want to have you in their home or in your office all the time. They just want to get this thing done. But if it's online and they're sort of cost to pitching up in person, isn't as high. They just like squander their time with you, they'll have like five meetings where in the past it used to be like two max three meetings and I would have to sell in the bank. I work with a lot of financial advisors. And one of the things that I tell financial advisors to do is build a wait list. You know, they not allowed to advertise, but they are allowed to inform their audience. And all you need is just build a wait list each and every month. And in person, you want to host an event. I like to feed people. If you feed people, their attitude is going to drop a hundred percent. Once you have them in a room and you explain what they're missing out on the type of insurances and everything, this is what all my financial advisors do. Again, it's in person for them to do it. They usually have around 30 people in the room and only half of them sign up, but you know what one customer could do for your business. Imagine 15. That's the power of building that wait list. That's the power of being in person. And I always tell them never close on a phone, never close on a phone. It doesn't work that way. If you're in person, you don't have to worry about trying to sell. You just have to worry about just telling the truth. I think that's really interesting what you guys are saying, especially about showing up and commitment. I think that kind of links into what you were saying, Blake, which is about intimacy. And so what was your idea around intimacy and how that will connect? Am I hitting on the right spot here? With Brandon? No. So Marcel was saying that when he had a brick and mortar store, he would close 95 percent of people because when they showed up, they were so much more committed. The cost of showing up was higher, whereas online is a bit fickle. And I think that physicalness relates to intimacy. And so what were your ideas around the intimacy, the philosophies? I think you can sell lots of things to lots of people for a high price and fulfill on your promises with very high success without any of that intimacy. Okay, let me be clear. There's really clever ways to do so. So then you ask the question, well, then what is the intimacy or in person thing for? I look at that as so sacred, like truly sacred. You can't get, it's under leveraged, first of all, you, these are good things in my opinion. It's under leveraged. You force yourself to be present in the moment, right? And it, you can't get much done. So it goes against this whole world of pragmatism and scale and, you know, repeatability and predictability, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It goes against the whole thing. So then you just have to ask like, well, what are the benefits of being able to be under leveraged, being able to have to be present, right? And being able to not move the needle really far, you really just only focus on the things that are truly important. Those are like soul connections and like doing life together, et cetera, et cetera. I think there's, there's a ministry of presence that is so important. You know those people who just, if you're on your deathbed or whatever, and they're just, you know that they're the perfect person to sit next to you, right? That's what I mean. It's that it's that they're not going to have the right words to say. They're not going to, it's, there's no lessons to be learned. It's just their presence is all you need. That cannot be replicated. And there are moments when you need that. Can I, can I challenge? Can I dig deeper? Because I kind of feel like, um, what about, you said a point about intimacy and flesh. And so well, I had that kind of flesh level. I want to hear your thoughts around that. The, it, or fortunately maybe it, my thoughts around this cross over into business and education and how we fulfill clients and build relationships for sure. But, but it 90% of it exists outside of this little world in my opinion. Like I just look at, I look at, I mean, the thing that I'm well studied on is, is, is Hebrew texts, Hebrew, biblical texts, and New Testament texts, and the understanding of, of God made in the flesh. That's like my, that's the only education that I have. And there's something very interesting about this, cause, cause he's, cause, cause, you know, he claims to be the son of God. Right? Jesus. He's, he's basically saying it is finished. How can it be all finished if there's all these problems in the world? How can it be finished? Right? There was still suffering. There was still pain. There's still brokenness. Yet he was still down to say, yeah, it's finished. It shows that he wasn't trying to scale or be pragmatic or whatever. It's that he was kind of doing his incarnational mission, if you will. So I, that sort of rocked my world to where, you know, there were so many people that need to be healed, but he didn't heal everybody. There were so many things that need to be done, but he didn't do them yet. It was still finished. So there's some beauty in, in, in this sort of incarnational in person experience that we have with others that impact the lives of, of generations, generations, and generations because, because we're able to be in the flesh together with one another. So on a very micro scale, if we all hang out in person, I'm sure there's some great wisdom, some great knowledge and some great connection, et cetera, but some of that, some of that connection and presence that we'll experience together will have a longer lasting ripple because all of you guys will, will feel that and, and translate that to all of the people that you're impacting. So it has a quality type impression on people and as opposed to, I'm just trying to reach as many people as possible. You know, it's the kind of reach that you want, the kind of transformation you want. And that's why I'm so big on this whole like quality, luxury, you know, mid tier and then quantity as opposed to the other way around because that, that makes a longer impact spending very, very, very quality, good time with experienced people first will tell hundreds of people, thousands of people impact the lives of so many more people than if I were to actually try to do things at scale, you know, quantity, et cetera. So I, I'm scratching the surface of what I think about this topic without, while trying to be ecumenical as well and, and open to what everybody else thinks. But Joe, I'm just answering your question, like from my heart, where I'm coming from here. Cool. That's, that's cool dude. So let me just articulate if I heard what you said properly. It's the depth of connection that is the, the difference. So when you show up in person, it's not from a IQ place where I'm just using my mind on the zoom, not presenting myself as something. It's, it's the depth and that's going to be a biological level that can be a physical level and intuitive level. And you, you miss all of that when you abstract it on zoom, and I think like Julian was saying is that when you go to a retreat, you can't control the environment. Like you can control it on zoom. So you can have randomness and you can see how people interact with randomness. And that's, that's the beauty of connection, I guess, is that, and that kind of connection lasts much longer. So by you prioritizing that depth of connection, it creates a bigger impact. Is that correct? That's right. And I actually, I value that type of connection be more than the scalable types of connections and large audiences, et cetera. It's just, it's a different kind of connection. It's a, it's more valuable. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it actually has more weightiness. You're actually doing more when you do something like this. Yeah. Can, can I add something here? Please, man. Okay. Uh, I had to start because I'm having a pretty awesome and crazy that you guys are going to think I'm crazy because this entire call that I've been on, I've been at the hospital with my wife getting induced to, to, for first boy or first baby or first son. So I've been connected here on Zoom while I've been living this like pivotal point in my life. And yeah, right now I stepped out, you know, right? I'm in the car. I'm, I'm looking for something going back to the hospital, but listening to this conversation I'd have thought that my example right now, it's probably like, uh, an extreme of what I want to say when you are present, things happen that maybe they make the lessons glue makes them stick because, you know, I will never forget this call because so this day like this is going to be a major day for me, my entire life. So maybe that fact that parallel happening will make things stick instead of the same words happening through Zoom a different day, just me at the office. You know what I'm saying? So probably when we meet like on a mastermind or you, you visit a client, something, something it could be minor happens. Maybe you tried like an amazing coffee and you were like, Oh my God. And then that helped the entire lesson glue to yourself that that's the idea I wanted to put here. Congrats by the way, man. That's so cute, man. Thank you. Thank you. First time. This day is about to get crazy. I know the nurse entered and asked her like, so from one to 10, how painful is it? She's like three and I'm like, Oh, the silence before the storm. It's coming. It's coming. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there's something I wanted to say on that James Cameron made Avatar one 2009. And the reason why he took 10 years or I think 12 years to release the next one was because he wanted to understand why it was such a phenomenon. And it's something that a lot of people seem to look over, but I've been said it right on the dot. It's the experience that leaves behind with him. So how do you leave an experience behind with the audience members full of theaters, right? Something new, something they've never seen before in a way that they can articulate that sort of relates to earth, sort of relates to the plants we see, but in a grander scale. He did the same thing with the Avatar way of the ocean, the way of the water, whatever it's called. And it's that experience that people seem to forget, but it's never really forgotten. It's always like some reason that was special. And that's something that Ivan just pointed out right now. And yeah, that's what makes really good movies being able to leave behind a good experience or a experience at least. So yeah, so exacting like a glue to the whole learning is at the end, I think we're talking about learning, I think that was the initial question, like why would education in person would be more powerful than digital? I mean, I guess digital power is that you can do it more often. So that sums up, but in person, you cannot do it as often with the people that are not you know, we're all very far away from each other. So, but when it happens, it's probably super powerful. So I guess it's like two unique powers. Blake, I wanted to update you on what I'm doing for the business really quick. So I decided to take a step back since the last time we spoke. And instead of selling to financial advisors, I completely stopped that, like 100% just cut it off. And the reason why was because I realized it wasn't allowing me to do what I loved. And that's to actually make films, produce films and do things just centered around films myself. But I know that I myself can't create a film cultural revolution. It takes a group of people. So my biggest problem was having people invest into those group of people without causing any problems. Investors seem to cause a lot of problems. So my way around this is I realized filmmakers will invest into other filmmakers. I asked I think around 27 other a tours just like myself. And if we like someone else's idea, we have no problem putting money towards it. That's something we all could agree upon. So I haven't started the business just up yet. I've been taking my time, honestly filming some stuff, writing some stuff. I plan on making my own future length film probably in like the next this year, but probably towards the end of it. And what I intend to do is show other filmmakers how they could get in theaters just like how skin and work did. And they don't need to go through the movie theater route. But once I show them that my goal isn't to make a tours dependent on me. My goal is to make a tours dependent on themselves. And if they want to invest into other filmmakers creating their own production studio. So that's where this is all heading towards. That's awesome, man. How do you feel about it now that you have clarity on this? Much better. Yeah. Oh, cool. Like night and day difference. Yeah. Like there was like a block before, like I could tell that it wasn't in alignment with like authentically what it is that you wanted to create. Yeah, I just don't care about marketing. I don't care about like the online stuff. If anything, I just care about like a good story. It doesn't need to be filmed. That's what I realized. It's just a good story, you know, and if I could help other people. If I could help other people achieve their dreams by creating stories, whether it's books, movies, whatever, that's what I want. And I want to be able to do that myself too. So you see where I'm kind of like, hey, I need help hiring, training, blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, I know what I want to do now. So, yeah. Clarity. Yeah. Clarity feels so good. Yeah. Good for you, man. That's fantastic. I appreciate it, but I really do. I really do. Yeah. Brendan, can I ask you a question? Yeah. Go for it. Yeah. What's your background? Like, where have you put in your 10,000 hours, you know? So I put my 10,000 hours into filmmaking, into screenwriting, just films in general. Anything to do with films. I've been writing for, I mean, I have so much books that I have written myself. Screenplays myself, there's a, okay, well, I'll let you guys know. The film that I want to shoot is called Bumper to Bumper, and it's a comedy. And nobody's made a freeway comedy yet, but so much funny things happen to us while we're driving that it could easily be a movie. So I want you all just to take a step to think about something that happened while you were driving, whether you're with your crush, whether with your wife, whatever. And that right there could be a part of the movie. So it's not really, it's not really a fleshed out idea, but it's something that I have focused on. And yeah, I just know it's going to be a hit. That's awesome dude. And you said that, so have you put movies into the cinema yet? So like, I just have no context, I'm just super curious. So I personally haven't put movies into cinemas, but I help movies get into cinemas. And other people have done it, and I show them how to. Yeah. Interesting. So would you say that's what you've repeatedly done over and over again, like help people get into cinemas? That or I show them their value, because George Lucas, he had Star Wars made. Star Wars was a billion dollar property. And a lot of people have their own Star Wars. A lot of people have their own Disney, a lot of people have their own properties. They could make, retain control, and be able to make sure they get good deals for whatever they want to do, whether it's making toys, whether it's making comic books, mongas, doesn't matter. It just matters about retaining control and understanding the value you have with your ideas. Got to it. So like, would you say, I guess what I'm trying to pinpoint is if I was to call you up and be like, hey, man, I need your help with this. Like, from what I'm getting from you is you were like a visionary creator kind of dude. What am I picking up the phone to say you've got my back with? Do you need investors for your film? So you know all the investors who invest in movies and stuff? Well, I want to say all the investors. I know good ones, but these are the questions that I normally ask. Do you need an investor in your film? How do people cool you up for? Not what you ask the people. So it's sort of like this. I don't have people calling me per se. I have them more like on a wait list. And at the end of the every month, I look at their work. If there work something that I could work with, something that I like, something that is you'd want to see in films, then I contact them and I say, hey, I see a lot of potential in you. I see what you can do. To get you in films. I like to make sure you retain control. And more importantly, I like to make sure that you achieve the rest of the film so it could be completed to your style, to your liking. Okay. So you kind of scout people, is that correct? In a way. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And so what kind of people do you find yourself regularly scouting? So I look at everyone, but the things that I scout for the most is people that actually have the talent to convey emotion on film and to have a clear story because the emotion is important. But if you don't have a story that could back up, that could be the backbone behind the emotion, there's no point of showing the emotion. The story is the bread and butter. So if I see a really good story, the emotion, if they could capture that on video and they have, of course, the cinematic style behind it, et cetera, et cetera, then yeah, it's something that I definitely get behind. Interesting. So you're looking for people who capture the story or who act the story? Which one is it? I'm looking for people who are tours, who are focused on their idea and that focus on making their idea the way they see fit. Does that make sense? I'm not 100% I don't know what everybody, yeah. So you've got me at the part where you're scouting people who want to convey a story. What I'm not clear on is how they convey the story. Are they the actor or the director or they create a- Well, normally I would check out their work because how I qualify people is you have to send me in your portfolio. And once I view your portfolio, I tell you what you could do better, what you can improve on. But for the people that knock it out the park, I want to find them an investor. Okay. So it sounds like, so is that a creator of the movie, like what's their role? Yeah, yeah. They're the creators of the film. Normally they do everything, right? The editors, they're producing, they do as much as possible because they're not just a regular filmmaker where they're their director. They want to make their ideas come to life, sort of like David Lynch, sort of like James Cameron, Steven Spielberg. Think of the top filmmakers like Quentin Tarantino that have these stories and their ideas that they want to make it show the world and they don't want to have anybody else involved because those are the people that really produce high quality work. I got it. So it sounds like you're kind of like Blake. You find underground talent, you find underground talent. That's your skill. That's your gift. Yeah, in a way, but what Blake does is a little bit different because he doesn't just find underground talent. He knows how to optimize that talent for the business side of things. And I could do that as well, but it's different in the film industry because we don't care too much about the business side of things. I could just help them retain control and close contracts good, but to optimize a business to have employees and train everything, I could set your film crew up, but I can't set your business up. That's something I'm really I'm struggling with. So why are you not like an agent or a manager or something like that? So I could get a percentage of every film I help get into theaters. The percentage could be as low as 2% or it could be as high as 5%. I don't go over that, but a percentage on a film means that film will always give me some type of passive income even after I'm dead. Yeah, so why are you not that guy? What do you mean? Why if if if that gets you passive income and you're scouting these people all day, this is what you're amazing at. Why are you not that guy? Why is that not not your full-time thing? Because I want to produce my own films, but what I care about more is changing the film industry, changing the culture of the industry, because we need to get away from Hollywood. That's just it's just we just need to. And then I need to show everybody that we could do this in your own hometowns. You could do this pretty much wherever you don't need to go to Hollywood. You don't need to be in that cesspool. So I want to do it myself. I want to create my own films, but I understand that cultural revolution is what's needed. That's what my goal is. Okay. So that's kind of like a macro thing where you want to change the industry. You want to encourage all this talent. Very similar to what Blake's doing, in the sense that he wants to shift the industry from marketing marketers, why I don't know how to express it, to people with real skill. And so what do you think the first steps are to making a cultural revolution happening? Do you think it's going after the cultural revolution? Or do you think it's starting, or do you think it's making the movies? Or do you think it's finding that talent first? Where do you see it along the spectrum? So the reason why I'm investing it to making my own movie is so that I could show other filmmakers how they could do it. And I'm going to show them everything behind the scenes, how I make the calls, how I go to meet people, just everything behind the scenes of how I do it. And then the more people that could do it for themselves, the more that we're not going to rely on Hollywood. If you show people how to do it, Blake, I hope you don't mind me asking. Then I know you're OK. Ask away. This is so good. OK. So it's only because I'm super curious, and you seem super talented. So that's why I just want to ask. Yes. OK. And so if you show the people how to do it, will that make you more financially rewarded in the short term or in the long term? So in the long term, this is what I'm thinking. If I help other filmmakers create a production company, they'll be able to find other talent and I won't be the only one dependent on it. So I'll be able to make my own films. But what I also realized is that films are a property that retain its value over a long period of time. If let's just say I help two, three filmmakers make a film each and every year, that means I have a crew building their sets, lighting, film crew, three different crews that I would have to pay continuously, we could easily make a change within like two, three years. But it would be a lot faster if we had a lot of people with the same idea on board of retaining the control, maybe starting their own production company and investing into other filmmakers, which would make this just steamroll down the hill. Does that make sense? So my big thing would be this. I want to give other people the power so we could give more filmmakers the power. And the only way that people like me are going to give people the power is if we tell people like, hey, it's okay to lose money. Even if the film doesn't do well, long term, it's still going to pay off. So taking from what you said, would it be correct to say that those people, they don't need to see that it's possible. I think that's what you said in the beginning, which is like, you need to show them how to do it. What they really need is encouragement that it's okay to fail, stuff like that. That kind of guidance. I would say that, but filmmakers or tours are very flustered. They're very flustered people when it comes to their actors, when it comes to investors, when it comes to equipment, everything they're just flustered about. So having this process fully fleshed out for them would be just it'd be a no-brainer offer. I would want to show them that, hey, you don't need to be, but that's kind of just talking to like a brick wall, you know what I mean? They want to see the results. Okay, because from what it sounds like to me is that you're very clear on what they need, but at the same time, and so correct me if I'm wrong, that it seems like there's an attachment to this online education model. And so my question is, why is there an attachment to this, that they need this education, they need this to be seen, stuff like that, because you know what they need, they need emotional support, they need someone to bring them order in the chaos, you have all of that already. This is what you've been doing. You scout them all day or long. Yeah. What, and correct me if I'm wrong, what hasn't happened yet is you haven't made a course and you haven't seen these things through. So the real question is, why are you thinking about this online education course stuff at the moment? Well, I'm not going to do a course, what I'm going to do is sort of like, it's going to be sort of like a club, a private club. I'm going to call it the tour society, where we all get together pretty much, we judge each other's work, we tell everybody what we're doing wrong, it's sort of just like how college is actually. The only difference is that I'm not going to have any program telling them, hey, you need a set of your lighting this way or that, I already expect them to do that. If anything, I want to make a film school where they have to achieve certain projects. So I'll create a horror film, create a drama film, create a whatever film, make it five minutes, something like that, actually seeing the work. But to be honest, I haven't got that far, I'm just still in the process. Got to it. So it sounds like you want a community of like-minded people that you can encourage and you can scout talent from something like that, right? Yeah. Because that's what you're the best at. Scouting this talent, that's what we'll just play, call it, undiscovered. Underground talent? Underground, underground. Yeah, I think I'm good at that for films, yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, thank you, man. Cool. There's something that Joe said that I think needs to be appreciated, which is- A topic around kind of falling in love with a fulfillment mechanism. It's like kind of the professional way to say it, right? It's kind of like when somebody goes, "Oh, you can like make money online through education. Like, I will conform everything in my being to basically fall in love with the model." That's not what you're saying, Brandon, I get that completely. But he was touching on something, which I think he was trying to find out, which is- I see it so often. People are so good at this one thing and they think that online education or something like this or selling courses is like a new thing or like, "I need to come up with a new offer or maybe I could do this or maybe I could do this, maybe I could sell this." But reality, the way to shift to that is to just keep doing what you're doing and just utilize the fulfillment mechanism of online education in order to make more money doing it. That's really cool. Does that make sense? To everybody, not just Brandon, but yeah, it makes sense to me. Yeah, I think the kicker is that sometimes we lose clarity of the what we're the best at. Yes. And then when you start reading all of these models and community and blah, blah, blah, blah, you're like, "What am I going to do again?" Well, you're saying you feel like a psycho because you're trying to do all this stuff and you're like, "Hey, what am I going to do?" And so maybe it's just the case of writing that down on a sticky note in front of you. I don't know why it is. Because then I think you're kind of your own confident as you're learning all these new skills and mechanisms and whatever stuff. I think a muscle has a question. Please jump in, bro. Yeah, guys, I am going to be that guy. Please, do we explain the fulfillment by sort of delivering the product? I sort of missed that between the education and sort of delivering service to get that answer straight. Sure. That's the question, right? So I do a pretty bad job and basically just assume kind of everybody knows what that shift is. But I'm happy to explain it. Say you are doing done for you financial services. So somebody will pay you $4,000 for a consultation and you can sort of set them up and sell them into like an insurance product or an annuity or something and then you get like a back end kick off of when you write up the policy, et cetera. I know how that works for sure. Let's see if you can do that for 30 years and then in comes the planet of online education and people saying they can make a hundred grand a month, that person puts on the cap and goes, maybe I can sell like a course, a book about like annuities or something and I can scale that and they can run out of that and it makes money and supplements may come, et cetera. But what it actually is is if you or sell had unlimited clients, there would be a breaking point with your fulfillment, you could not meet with 1000 clients this month and you could not write up 1000 insurance policies and you could not find 1000 clients to even fulfill on. So let's assume you have a 1000 clients this month. You literally could not fulfill on the promise period. The way that online education says is, yes, I can fulfill on that because what you're doing is you take all of the way that you do work. Let's meet. Let's hang out. I'm going to take your information, get on zoom, you know, this and this. Let's go plans, blah, blah, blah. You're going to take that entire fulfillment on what you do with your business and package it into prerecorded content that they go throughout their own pace, okay? They get the same result that you are giving them right now, which is I have a life insurance policy that's written up for me and I have an annuity that works with my long term plan and I have clarity on what that is period. I get that outcome, but instead of Marcel walking me through how to do it in person this and this and this and this and this and then I will write it, it's just I just get dropped into an online program where they go through it at their own pace and at certain points they upload documents into this and it's all taken care of. If they have any questions, you show up twice a week, once a week, three times a week to fixed calls that everybody else shows up to bang on all the questions. If the questions keep popping up, you go back to the content to put it all in there so you don't have to answer that question again. And once the fulfillment is taken care of, you don't need to service or fulfill on the promise. It's done. It's taken care of. They get the results without you being there. And now you have 40 hours back to your week, you spend all of your time and energy being a psycho, selling people, marketing because the fulfillment mechanism is so powerful. You get on the phone, it's $4,000, $4,000, it's $4,000 because the fulfillment is completely taken care of. Does that make sense? Yeah, man. That's awesome. Yeah, there is a sort of mess that, so what I did is I bought the whole online course program like do it yourself, but what you're saying now is genius to add the part where you're also going to fulfill yourself and maybe just simplify even onto that level so that I don't because now I do in-person financial advice and I've got my online course and these two are sort of two islands apart from each other instead of like doing one thing that's also man. Y'all, thank you. Can you just like say more, like tell me about the problems about this, tell me your journey in this like I need to know, I need to know what's clicking for you, I need to know your experience of this, please go on because Marcel, you have no idea how many people are damn experts at what they do and they call themselves newbies in the online world, et cetera, et cetera. It's all backwards, you are the people I'm looking for. The people in the real world who have experience who haven't discovered the fulfillment mechanisms of this, so could you just kind of, do you mind just kind of saying more and just more for me? I just want to understand. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. So it started off like 10 years ago actually when I was thinking, what can I do because I did a career switch from corporate into finance and I want to help people with their finance and a financial advisor will advise people on that run, that's like selling policies I've discovered a few years later. So both 14 years down the line, I sort of had started doing coaching and sort of stuff on the side one on one, always one on one. And then recently, like over the last few months, I joined like the YouTube thing with Sam Evans and I finally built up my course. So now I've got a financial planning course, which helps people to plan their budget, the income, the outcome, mindset around finances, all this kind of stuff and transition from that into an actual financial plan that you even calculate your remuities, your life cover and how to choose advisors, how to find advisors and you end even with an action plan to actually realize this whole journey. Now, where I'm stuck at now is, it's still two separate things and what you said now, like when it's starting to click, I have my traditional business, which would be, I find a referral or a client somehow, I call him up and he says, yes, I need you to help me with my insurance, I just had a baby, if I die tomorrow, there's going to be an issue helping with my life insurance, or I want to start investing, what do I do? And I will write the policies for these guys, they'll sign it, I'll get it back in commission. Maybe I don't pay for charge for that. Right. Right. But now I've got the mastermind thing going and that's been quite well but it's very slow because I'm not marketing it yet, but in there I've got some people now where what I used to do one on one, I'm doing one too many now, so I'm doing these weekly collab calls on each week as I'm progressing through the weeks. So I guess what I'm stuck at is refining my offer because it's not a bit like hectic, it's basically for individuals doing personal finance and my initial plan was doing it for business owners and helping them a financial strategy. But I don't have that much experience with the personal finance, I have 300 people, I've consulted one on one in the brick and mortar world and I know what works like I've validated this sort of coaching program of mine, but I'm stuck at seven paid members at $300 which is like still not really where it's got to be. Yeah, if you're not careful, you'll waste a couple of years of your life because you think that this model is the way to shift into what you can do at scale. Yeah, I understand it now. Yeah, there's a piece for this. So could you tell me more because I need to understand this, what clicked for you because it sounds like you had your, I'm trying to be a very good listener, you had your, let's call it done for you and do anything, I understand how business model works, you don't charge for that. If you write the policy, you, I know you get a lot if you have assets under management and then you write all these things, like you get percentages there, I, my father-in-law is a financial planner, he's been doing it for 150 years. And I get how he, I get how this business works, okay, you have that and then you've got this, hey, a mastermind, do a mastermind, you know, okay, I'm going to do mastermind and it's this divorced thing than what you're doing. And so it's this, it's this sort of synthetic or manufactured out of thin air offer that's helpful, but it's not exactly what it is that you're doing in real life. Is that, did I catch that correctly? Is that fair to say? It could be like, I think the mastermind is more what I do in real life. Okay. I think policy writing is more, that's where it's in authentic, they almost, because my meetings start off with like, I'm bashing the insurance companies, I'm like, listen, these guys are bosses, they're going to get you this way or that way and this way, be real careful, defining like a financial advisor should really be called a policy sales person. What I'm trying to do is like financial coaching is a different thing, those are two separate things. So my meetings are always like, sort of that angle. Do you want me to help you with your personal finance? To really like pay your debt and have a plan that you know, I'm making money coming in. 30% of that needs to be taken off the table. Build reserve, starting, wasting, build your things up. But this is all like coaching really on finance. It's not selling a policy. And this is where it's this joint, because selling a policy, sort of paying the balls at this moment, the bread and butter, annuity income. But the mastermind is really where my passion is that it's like actually making a difference for people. And it's like, I have to taste the monials already, like I have made a difference for a bunch of people already, but yeah, it's not destroying that man. I'm stuck in this to am I a financial advisor, or do I keep on bashing the insurance companies who actually pay me a commission and then sell the mastermind or do I do both? It's like I'm two people in one years, the enemy and the hero in one, I don't know. Yeah, the first iteration of college, we had a financial advisor who did reverse mortgages. It was like a reverse mortgage that put into annuities that took care of retirement solution. It was a very niche thing. I fell in love with it. It changed people's lives, you know, had all this equity in their home. They don't know what they're going to do to retire, do a reverse mortgage on it, put that money into a specific annuity that pays out a certain amount, put another bit of that, put it away for life insurance policy so that when you die, your family's taken care of, you can pay off the house and you have money to live on. It was like a very creative solution. I quite liked it. So what you're saying is that the bread and butter is writing these policies, but you don't like it. You really like helping people and coaching them through things. Is that right? That's right. Exactly. It's really making a difference because the policy is like a product to solve one issue. But the bigger picture of what people need to do to actually make financial change is like just having a monthly budget and a financial plan that actually sticks. And that's like not a policy. Yeah. So you just have to do both, but have it be under one umbrella as opposed to these two different lives. Yeah. I mean, I can sort of imagine this. So before I sort of go off and say, here's the solution to your problem. Could you tell me a little bit more about the pain underneath this? Like what, where the real tension is? Like tell me why this matters. This is more than just a strategic conversation. This is a, this is a little bit more pivotal than that, it seems. Thank you. So from the viewpoint of my clients or the viewpoint of myself? You. Yeah. So there's really two things it's the, I don't have a lot of control under the policies. It's not my product. It's someone else's product. So sometimes I can't afford the client to make him absolutely happy. So there's always this like covert hostility, this antagonism towards the insurers, sometimes even the invest houses. But at the same time, at the financial coaching side of things, that's sort of a really a nice flow because it's, I'm really actually making a difference and I'm showing my clients what the industry really is like and how to affect change and how to control this thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think my profession would be having a mastermind coaching people on this. But I think it's a bloody small idea to combine it with, as you're going, you do use the policies that you need because sometimes you do need the insurance policy. There are times and places for that and to just let that income go that would also not be smart, but to make it the base, I think would be, like you said, you pay me $4,000, you come in, I do everything for you and we implement these policies. I had another idea for, well, I design an idea, it's an actual product where you basically when you make a profit, you'd rather buy insurance and you sort of control that money. And in one day, when you have a big loss for a year, you can release some of that money once more and have a profit. Long story short, you can use this as a business owner to retire from as well, which is a very, very niche idea. In America, it's called like a whole life insurance policy. Yeah. I've got a few of these. Yeah. It's the infinite banking concept thing, you can borrow against it. Yeah. Yeah. Trust me, I'm sold out on that idea for sure. So, well, it sounds like it's okay, backing up the way that you pay your bills is the policies. And by the way, these are these are term or whole life insurance policies, mainly whole life or. In South Africa, it is called whole life, but it means something different. It just means when you die, you actually get a payout, but it doesn't work the same as in America. So it is a policy to continue to want to keep for your whole life, but it's a different style of policy. It's a. Yeah. It's a term basically. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. There's no there's no life benefit. It's only death benefit, right? Yeah. But for me as an advisor, I get a monthly fee on this. No, I know it's a benefit for you, but for the client, they can't they can't, it's not like a whole life insurance policy in the States where there's a cash value or anything like this. Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's some other ones like income protectors and stuff. The main thing I think that I enjoy is the investment policies, because it's really like black and white. It isn't this thing of like, yeah, but you died in this way, which doesn't count. So we're going to exclude it. Yeah. I just, I had to stop like flying little planes for two years when I got my insurance policy, because if I died, then it would go away, but I could start again after two years. Anyways, I had to do all this nonsense. So what do you say your favorite policy was? I'm sorry, Marcel. Investments. Could you tell me a little bit more why it's your favorite? Because it's like, there's no like tricky parts to like make it know, oh, but it can't fly. And there's always some people with life insurance and it's not something I enjoy, like it's really sort of like negative type product, like, okay, if you die or if you ever can serve in cool, then I'll be helpful for you versus like, okay, cool, your business is doing wonderful. Let's take this money and invest it in a like a really stable investment that will grow every year, da, da, da, over a hundred years, you know, this kind of thing. And while we're doing that, I'll build up your financial plan. That's sort of why I say investments. That's the investments are really good annuity and come like, every month I get like a few hundred dollars per client. Yeah, that sounds, that sounds really good, actually. So the, so Marcel, that's what you do, but you have this passion and love for the coaching side of things. Is that fair to say? That is fair. Okay. How much experience do you have on the coaching side of things? I would say like, even more than actually writing the policies, okay, even since the university, I guess, like, I would always be that guy like around the barbecue, like, speaking financial advice and I would say that's my last, so. So what's the tension? So what's the tension then, so you're doing that and you're doing this policy thing. What's, what's the tension? I think that the tension is, do I let go come, like, if I could make this, the education business work, I would just let go of the insurance side of things. Maybe keep the investment policies, maybe, but in general, I think I'll just let go that whole model and only do the education part. So what, so what made you click, what, what clicked for you when I was going, when I was doing my whole monologue, like, what was the thing, you're like, Oh, I see this. What was the thing for you, the aha moment? The part where I didn't connect it to, so when I'm saying with my financial plan, because I literally go down the line, okay, we start with a mindset, we go eventually, we do your budget, we do your financial plan. And at this point, you need to open up an investment that looks like this and in just connecting that to an actual automated system somehow, like here's your documentation, complete this document, submit with a video based course on how to, where now it isn't there. Now it's like, in total isolation, you can sit in somewhere and do my course, which the result is only you understand my course. It isn't connecting with financial, because that's a big benefit taking care of. I have a license, which is quite difficult to get, that I can make that a new routine come. Yep, sounds like you just need to add an onboarding piece to your education model and then keep fulfilling the annuities and insurance policy write ups within the sort of transformation. So if you look at it this way, it's like, this is, I'll literally just tell you what we did with this, that one I told you about. I will show you right now. So right now, you have, you have these two different lives, you have, it's like a financial education thing, and then you have, you're done for you, policy, business, okay? These are your two lives. These are the high level business, this isn't your, like how you fulfill, this is just the two businesses you have. So the way that you, so hold on, so this is like, hold on, business, and then you have fulfillment. The way that you fulfill this done for you policy biz is through, done for you. The way that you fulfill this is through course with coaching, I'm assuming, yes, I'm coaching in there, right? Do you like, you have a course that people go through? Okay, got it, okay, and then, yeah, okay, this is pretty simple. So, you just do this one business, which is financial education, there you go. So what you do is you just make this offer better. So it's like, you're, so you have these two tools, right? You have the, I don't know what category this is in, but you have like, the education bit, and then you have the vehicles. So these vehicles are like the annuities, life insurance, et cetera. So within this business, the financial education business, this is somewhere else, okay? Within this new financial education business, you have this education, which you're chunking down on like your, I'm assuming it's like maybe retirement or just maybe advanced financial planning, maybe it's a good way to put it. And then, I want it to do this, not that, there we go. And then you have like annuity, life insurance, policies, et cetera, et cetera. So within this, you're talking about this and the way that you get this is you need these, but just, oh my gosh, I just want an arrow, no. Copy. Imagine there's an arrow there. Yeah, yeah, so like you need the education, but you also need the vehicle. So as they're going through this whole framework of like how to retire or how to get good financial planning, they're going through the system and so forth, they'll get your, you're packaging all of this into right now, of course, in coaching, you continue to do that. But once you hit the, okay, time to do what I do with my bread and butter, all of the intake that you do right now for this business of extracting the information, you know, what type of plan do you need, which insurance provider we're going to use, et cetera, et cetera, you also package that into content that they go through instead of meeting with you on Zoom. Just put it all there. Technically, dude, you could literally just start this business too. Just keep doing what you're doing, but the fulfillment is taken care of through course in coaching, but that's kind of weird. So did I lose you there? Do that make sense? Makes a lot of sense. Okay. So my week is an action week. I just send them away, though, like in New Jersey. Yeah. Yeah, man. So, so what you would do is just when they get to the point where they need to interact if you're done for you policy business, everything that you're doing now, you just put into leveraged content that's pre-recorded. And if there's things they need to fill it out and any certain point that they can do on their own, you don't do it. You put it in this new financial education business and then, you know, it should be like, well, what is it that I do to actually determine whether I use this insurance company or this insurance company? Well, I've got these six or seven questions that I usually ask them. And so you're the expert. You just have to take that expertise and put it into content so that they can know which one works for them. It's sort of like what I do with like incubator. It's like, do you need to do a tense sprint model? Do you do an evergreen course model? Do you need to do like, I don't use the words like mastermind or low-taking or any of this. There's certain, there's other fulfillment mechanisms. I can sort of sit here and be an egotistical expert and sort of tell you what to do or I can package it into content so that you feel empowered to make the decision yourself. You're just going to do the same thing for here. And then once they know what insurance they're going with and then all of the stuff, the only thing that they cannot do is write the policy themselves because they don't have a license. Guess what? You do. So they submit everything to you when you're ready to basically do the policy and you don't need to discover it. They're doing all of it right. And then you write the policies and then they continue going through the financial education thing. So what you've done is you've basically still leveraged the course and coaching side of things. But you've taken your existing business now and taken out the done-for-you side of things all the way to the point of actually writing the policy. You've just put it within the education. And then once they're ready to write the policy, it's like, we're done, like game over. All I need to do is submit this policy. That's all I need to do. It's already filled out. It's all done. And then they continue on with this, you know, their journey and the financial education business that you have. And what you've essentially done is instead of getting paid on writing the policies, you've gotten paid on the front ends for joining the program and your education and you're getting paid again when you write the policies. You see what I mean? You've always been used to just making money on the policy. So let's get paid as well for getting people educated. Not just on the policy. You see what I mean? That's power, man. Definitely. Because I'm basically like, I've lined up this ultimate client, basically. And then I literally put in two modules in my course, I'm like, all right, now, how you find someone to do this for you? You go on Google and you look at their reviews and you plot and then I can literally send them off. Yeah. Dude, so here's what we did with our one, okay? So we had one dude. Once you'll get it, dude, like once we had one dude, dinosaur, okay? Done for you, insurance, dinosaur. I think dinosaurs existed in South Africa. You know what a dinosaur is, right? So done for you, insurance dinosaur. Okay, how do they fulfill? All dinosaurs fulfill the same way is done for you, okay? I will do it all for you. And all the calls are going to be done on a phone or in person. It's the most underleveraged thing ever, okay? So we made money, let's say done for you, was how we delivered the thing and then how this person got paid was through three things. Got all the assets under management, boom, you get a percentage of that. He also, dude, you're going to love this. He also got paid to write up a reverse mortgage, boom. And then annuity, he also took the money from this reverse mortgage, put into an annuity, boom, got paid on that. And then he also got paid on the life insurance policy, boom, got paid on that. So for his customer, he doesn't pay, these customers don't pay him anything, obviously, right? So to write up the annuity, to write up the reverse mortgage, to get assets under management, to write up this life insurance policy, yeah, they'll pay yearly for their life insurance policy or whatever, whatever, but they're not paying him to get this outcome. But this guy got paid four ways, and this is like a $60, $70,000 case, basically. Because if you get assets under management, you can control a certain percentage of what they have. If you get a reverse mortgage, that's $20,000 in the bank. If you have an annuity, that's another, what is it, a couple hundred bucks a month or something like this. Same with life insurance. See, every year you get distribution. So depending on how big it is, this is a $60,000 to $70,000 case, this is high ticket. But for the customer, it doesn't feel like they're paying $70,000 a year, okay? All of this work of getting them to say yes to the policy is a lot of work. Yeah. So we said is, well, how do we just get paid for all that work as well? What we did for this is we just did like, we've turned the business into online education. Old, I don't want to say old people, retirement solutions, okay, that's what the new business is. And the way that we fulfill it is through, hold on, okay, online education, okay? This cost $20,000 and we will still write the freaking policies for you. We'll do it all for you and we're getting paid, you know, $60, $70K on this thing. So all we've done is like gotten paid for all the front end work. And what we did is this done for you thing to do all this. We freaking put it all in here so that no more meetings, no more extraction, none of this stuff, all of its pre-packaged education. So now the fulfillment is taken care of, no more zoom meetings, none of that stuff. You see what I mean? So you have to transform your initial business into online education first before thinking, maybe there's an offer where I can do this. Maybe I could do this. Maybe I can do this. Just what are you doing now? And how do you package that so that all the work is on them and not on you? It's pretty brilliant. Yeah, this is worth a lot of money. What like this offer? This whole concept because it fills up a gap ahead and I don't even know why I didn't think of this, but it's not easy to make my own little application form, do a little module on it, ask the questions I need. I have a team already that will complete the actual real insurance application forms, but I know what they're going to ask. They're going to ask 20 questions, I'll just ask the 20 questions myself. Complete the document, seeing it off to them, they sign it. But by the time I get to like that one, two, three, four step of yours, that's been a lot of time like setting meetings, filling in documentation. I'll do that. Put it all here, put it all here. That changes everything because now it's like, I'll just get emails automated with applications for insurance and that's what happened here. Yeah, dude. So, and like because the online education thing with some of the coaching is there, you still have the touch point if they really need some questions asked, but it's group, right? Yeah, this was cool. This offer was like part of the first iteration of college. This was like a, you know, made a lot on this, like this, I love this stuff. This is cool. Yeah, that's solid. I really like that. Something I tell a lot of financial advisors that I work for is that they should niche down, but it sounds like you already have an audience for retirement folks. But again, if you don't have an audience or if you want to find like a bigger audience, niche down for retirement folks who were teachers or retirement who were, you know, just in the specific industry, it could be any industry you want. And that would talk to them so much more. And again, everything you said right here was so solid, man, like, I love this. This was great, man. Yeah, Marcel, what is your, what's your experience in the, in the people that you help, like, how long you've been doing it? Who has had people you help? Yeah, man. So I've been helping a lot of people one on one, like 10 years, basically, maybe a few months short. Great. But I've got great testimonials because I was always the guy that would, like, sometimes spend four hours, five hours in a meeting with people, we, we didn't even have lunch. I would like cut up little chocolates just so we can have some food so we can just continue, but I would get reprimanded for that because there were enormous self policy, stop this education stuff. So, and then I was like, no, I'm not, like, the people don't need the policy right now. Right now, they've got a debt issue, right now, they've got a, like, lack of income issue. That's what we need to handle right here. But now with the online, like I started a school group, obviously, with Mastermind and of course, and then now I get to say all the things I really do need to say, spend time in the weekly collab course doing that. And then, like, fulfill them on autopilot, which I, I somehow didn't see that thought. So, traditionally, it would have been, like, I would do one on coaching and people would pay me for that. And it was very time consuming and difficult to get sales. I wouldn't market, obviously. And then my other income would be, okay, go see a person in person, write the policies, prep a physical formula. I mean, yeah, we have a little example. Yeah, you just write it up. Yeah. During all the documents, we're going to see the guy. Now I can automate a lot of this. Yeah. And again, the only piece of the done for you is all that nonsense is what you're doing now done for you. It's just because you got to fill up 40 hours a week of your time. Just package it into content. And then the only thing you should be freaking doing, doing, doing, doing is signing on that policy that they already have come to an empowered decision on. You can even have, like, your back office team just, like, you know, DocuSign, DocuSign, DocuSign. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've got DocuSign. Yeah, man, because, like, what's happening is I would get, like, interesting, like, sort of success stories. People like, yo, man, Michelle, thank you so much. My confidence around money has gone up. And thanks to you, my savings rate has gone up. But that doesn't translate back into the policy business. Because if I talk to people like, hey, you should use me as your policy advisor, here's my referrals. My testimony is like, oh, he's confident and not like, I don't need confidence. I need a good policy. So now it's all in one, though, wherever it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's got to combine it. That's power, man. Thank you, guys. Yeah, you got it. Yeah, is it okay if I pitch in again? If you want again. If I pitch in again. Oh, pitch in. Yeah. Sure. Go for it. My buddy, he started a window cleaning business out here in, I think it was Yookaipa. And at first, he just started doing windows. But then he realized he's just like, well, people need those gutters, cleans too. So he started cleaning their gutters and he's like, well, I could start doing driveways with power washing and I could start doing the roofs with soft washing. He started offering those too. Then he realized, well, some people like to have maids in their house or like to have a chef, like a lot of doctors tend to do that when they come home from work. And what he started doing was he was working those spots until he hired someone out to start fulfilling those roles. Now right now he has a business that's making around $360,000 a month off of four trucks. And that's because it's an all encompassing business that serves everybody if we're pretty much all their home cleaning needs. And the business, it doesn't have, you know, one truck focused on, I mean, four of the same trucks that are all power washing as one truck that's focused on, you know, home residential cleaning, maid service, one truck focused on car detailing, another truck focused on the carpet cleaning and stuff. And that's just one line of trucks. He hasn't moved to another city, but $360,000 a month off of a simple all encompassing business could be very powerful. So when you have an offer, just like how, excuse me, did you leave? Nope. It's hard there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just like how Todd had like it could fulfill so many roles that people don't want to have to call multiple people. You know, you could just call one company and that solves so much people's problems just right then and there, you know, that's something that I've overlooked. That's something it's just very easy to overlook, but it's a huge problem that people always come across. But if you offer that all encompassing service, it makes you a no brainer to just pick. Mm. Hey, um, Mike, what's up, sorry, I'm calling you out. Have you, I don't know if you've ever like, I think maybe I can't remember it. Did you like introduce yourself briefly and then like we had to go or something or did you never come on this call? Help me understand. Nah. Yeah. Last time, uh, you had to get off because you had to pick up your son. That's what it was. That was you. I knew it was you. Okay. Do you want to do try that again? Yeah. Dude, um, I was just taking notes on what was going on as a great stuff. Oh, cool. Yeah. But, um, yeah, dude, I run an online education company for tech house producers. Um, and I, for the most, for most of the time, since like 2017 is when I started 2018, I just sold courses, but over the last year, I started to move into the more recurring model where I would do feedback in addition to, so it was a, you know, and now that was on Kajabi. Now I'm moving over to, um, school and I'm just, I'm just entering in this whole world. Um, and so it's a lot of new cool things for me. Cool man. Yep. Sounds very familiar to the old business that I had. What was that and what were I mean, just, just that it was in music. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's all. Yeah. But, um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's great. I guess just to ask you a question, um, before you were talking about, I think what you were saying, which is really interesting, that having a mastermind without a, a fulfillment mechanism in a way, it seems like it doesn't make sense. Uh, was that a question or how I'm interested in? So the reason why I'm asking this is because like, it sounded like what you need is you have like an online, um, course product and that is basically, for example, I'm a producer. So I take my process and then I just map it out and that's my online education. Right. And then I come in as a guide on top for the, uh, kind of the more mastermind, higher level guidance type of product. Right. Um, and so I guess, I guess that's just what I was clarifying or I'm asking is, that was kind of the model that you were talking about earlier. What, what is the, the question is, is it, is a mastermind? I just don't understand the question. Sorry. Help me understand. We understand the question. No, no worries. Dude. Um, it was basically it's just, I was just asking if that was, um, the model that you were talking about. Oh, if what was the model that, that the process is a course and that a, and that the second, tell me about that the mastermind is what? Yeah. The second piece is basically where you're, um, providing that kind of guiding light for the people going through the educational part of it. Oh, I see. I, I'm, I'm not sure. I'm sorry. Just an unclear question is, it's like when I just came in, so I just thought I heard something. And, uh, but basically what I thought was the model that you were describing in this was that you kind of take everything that you do and you put it in an educational product. Mm hmm. And so the work is on them to do it and then you hop on calls like every two weeks and like you answer questions. And so it's just a clarifying question is that kind of a model. Yeah. So I get, so I get that. Yes. That model is awesome. But it sounds like you're also saying some, some other thing, like the guiding light thing. I, I look at that as one as within the same product. If that makes sense. Okay. That just makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The reason, and that's pretty much, that's pretty much what I'm doing. So I mean, it was, I'm basically asking, um, and what I'm doing is what I'm doing now. What you recommend to do. Oh, that's a different question. It is a different question. But first I had to get clarity on, on, I thought what the model was that you were talking about. What are you doing now? You teach tech house producers how to make tech house music and you do it through some sort of high price training and that comes with content as well as community and some sort of fixed coaching calls. Is that right? That's exactly it. All right. Yeah. Cool. Um, why would you stop doing that? I'm not. Yeah. I, yeah, I think it's, um, I mean, it's working for me, um, over the past year. And so anyway, but that's, that shows me kind of describing what's going on in my business and what I'm doing as well. Sure. What, what is it that either you're really just, you wake up and you go, I hate this or what is it? What are the things that you really want to be able to do or get to, um, are you in tune with some of those things? Yeah. I guess the master plan would be to kind of, in a way, use the community as like an incubator and to build up a production team. The master plan would be to get a group of producers that just takes over the charts. You know, um, as a producer out. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so basically just creating the content, the education, having people go through that, helping them, improving their skills, and then ultimately looking for people to take on so that I can outsource some of the production, come in, finish the song, uh, with the mastering, finishing the arrangements, blah, blah, blah, use the connections I have in the industry to just get releases. So I can have a lot more output from talent, just finish the little icing on the top and just that also helps with the marketing side, because then you have credibility with the brand and that just gets more people into the, um, the system, I guess. Is the goal to get more people into the system or is the goal to, like, in other words, is that a means to an end or is at the end? It would be a means to an end, um, financially, I guess, to do it to a place financially. Okay. What if you could wave a magic wand and not do that? Like in other words, maybe there's a different way to get what is what you want as opposed to fixating on that is the way that I'm going to get what I want, you know what I mean? Uh, go a little deeper on that. Sure. Well, you just described as a strategy. It's a means to us. It's not an end. Okay. Got it. Let's remove the strategy. Let's remove the vehicle or how you're going to do what it is you want to do. What is it that you ultimately want to do? Not what is your ultimate plan or what's your ultimate strategy? What is it that you really ultimately want to do and maybe we can think of a better way to get there. You know, man, I think about this a lot. And so that's kind of why I structured it this way, which was when I think about what it is I like doing on a day-to-day basis, it's two things. It's making music, uh, because, you know, and then the second thing is just helping producers. And so the way that I see this whole thing playing out is I get to make music, especially with the team and I brought one guy on and I get to make music for myself and with this guy and then on the other side, helping people on the calls. And so I really see it as both sides being fulfilled on both sides, helping producers and then also just making music myself. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's ultimately what you want to do, but it sounds like you're doing that or not. I am doing that. And so what I would like to do is make more money doing that. Ah, there's the missing piece. Okay. I'm going to make more money while continuing to do this. Correct. Yes. Oh, okay. Well, if it's just make more money, there's easier ways to make more money. That's true. There are more ways to make more money, but also doing what you love. I get it. Exactly. Yeah. No, okay. So got it. How you don't have to share any of this, but how much is your, your program, how many people are in it, you know, how long you've been doing it, tell me more about that. So the program, I mean, the program right now has 30 people, 97 a month or 750 for the year. And, but I also make money from like just off, one off course sales, but I'd like to. Yeah. So that's, that's what's going on right now. But what I would like to do is get to, I mean, last time you pulled up my comment that I left, when I introduced myself in the community and said 10,000 a month from the recurring, but then you're like, dude, no, we need to get up to 100,000 a month. So that's an attractive, attractive number. Whether the, whether what I've described is going to be able to get there is something that I don't know, but I would imagine you do. The thing that you described to get there is a distraction. Yeah. From, from getting to the 100k per month. Yeah. Did you notice when you were describing, see, this is so I, I'm sorry to be a strong cup of coffee at the gate. Are you the Palm Springs dude? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember you. Yeah. I'm going to be out there in July. Nice. Nice. Let's see, what you just described when you, you notice when you described your business, there was, there was a lot of hesitancy and justification when I didn't ask or say anything. So there's something, yeah, there's something about it that, that you don't, that you feel like you need to explain. What did I explain? Cause I, I don't have the awareness on that right now. Well, yeah, I'll, I'll ask it again and just observe how, observe the feelings that you're, that you're feeling when you say it. Cool. Um, dude. Yeah. Thanks for going with me on this. I think it's helpful. It is. Cause I mean, you're pointing out blind spots. No, it's cool. Yeah. And ultimately you just want to help. Yeah, tell me. Okay. So tell me the price of your program and how many people are in it and what you're making. Uh, making financially, you're making what do you mean by making financially, price of the program, how many people are in it and what you're making financially on just that program. Just want to be clear because I want to answer the question, okay, three, three K total per month recurring right now. Um, and I'm going to say in the past, I don't know if this is explaining. Let me know. I probably am because I want to make it sound better than it is right now, but, uh, but in the past, I would do a course model and I would be making like 10,000. It wasn't always a month, but it would fluctuate, but it was anywhere around like 5,000 to about 15th per month selling, uh, just the courses through email, arctic and stuff. But what I want to do is just build up a recurring revenue business. I just like that. And I like the idea and I'm explaining a lot right now, we're going to have to get back to your initial question. So I'm catching that, uh, but the point is I want to get that recurring revenue business so that I could do those activities as described, which was make the music and then just help producers and then just be able to have that foundation. So I've lost the question, ask it again, and then I will answer it more directly. So yeah. So I, I can either come out and just say what's going on or you can realize in real time what's going on. And I'm, I'd rather do that, right? Cause it's helpful. It's more helpful. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you're kind of, you're, you're feeling and observing what's going on. I'm just, I haven't, I haven't imposed any judgment. I haven't commented. I haven't, I, all I'm asking is a question and it's, it may, it feels weird answering it because there's something about it that you don't like. So the answer is always in that, that uncomfortable, uncomfortable space and we can go there and, and what's great is we can find the answer. So just answer it without any sort of, but, but, but also, but wait, but just, just answer it and then let's sit with it and just let's look at it. Just pull it apart. You know, let's, let's, let's, let's feel it out, right? And okay. This, this, impose no judgment onto it. This is kind of like therapy. Exactly what it is for holding it out or just looking at it. This isn't me. This is something else. You don't need to be proud of it. You don't need to be not proud of it. Just what's, what's the data? How many people are in it? What does it costs? And what are you making? 30, 97, 3K per month. Got it. So we've got 30 people in it at $97 per month, 3K per month. There's another piece of it as well, which we sell one off courses. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. How much is that? The individual courses or the income from it? Yeah. Yeah. How much are the individual courses? Individual courses, a 97, uh, three, I'm sorry, 297. There's, uh, one, two, three of those courses. Got it. And that's through like email marketing, sequencing, stuff like this. Exactly. Okay. Okay. Just from the, just from the website. Got it. Okay. Understood. Did you happen to go through like some sort of Frank Kern training or something to get here? I've been through every training, but yeah, well, a lot of them. I've just. Yeah, Frank. Yeah. I've just heard this so many times. Okay. He's, he's Frank's great, by the way, um, oh, yeah, he's, he's fine. Yeah. We have a, I have a house in his, and we, we are in the same neighborhood in San Diego. Um, anyways, he's great. Um, yeah. Yeah. Frank's awesome. Um, but yeah, I, I can, uh, okay. I know. Let's see. So okay. Those are the facts of the business and your goal is to produce music, keep doing that. And then really love helping people, which is awesome. Um, both of those things are awesome, but the missing piece is financially, it's not making sense. It's not allowing you to do that at scale. It's, you want to make more money doing it. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Got it. Okay. Let's do the facts and we know what it is that you want to do. We need to be very slow to come up with like, um, well, maybe it's just me, maybe it's just, let's one second. What does it, let's define what it is that you ultimately want and believe for a second that we can get it and rely on us, me to help you see the pathway there. That doesn't mean that you have to go do some weird strategy. That's not going to work. So. I love it. Yeah. So what, what income are you, do you want to, do you just want to make more or you want to make like a lot more? Like what, what is it that you, that you're trying to achieve income wise. So that's an interesting question because it's like, um, ultimately or just right now, what would feel, how would I feel, um, like validated? And so like feeling good about it would be like 10 K a month, I would say, based off of the strategy that I have. And then once I get there and I'd feel certainly good about it going from that point. Why do you want to make more than that? Man, validation, validation of product validation of intelligence, validate, you know, who knows, um, just, just the ambition to do it and the, and then to do it. Totally. Yeah, it's fun building things. Um, do you need to get validation from income goals though? Um, so another way to get validation would be through my own success as a producer and in the success of the producers inside for sure. Sure. I don't know what it is about like the financial validation, but that is a driver. So right. Totally. It's almost like a human condition, isn't it? I feel like we all feel like if we're not making X amount, then we're, we're not validated in our skill sets or expertise, you know, you know, you know, the, there's a story that I've heard, um, you know, Alex Harmosey, I'm sure everyone, he's just blowing up, or he talks about like how his dad, um, you know, was tough on him and he wanted to just make more money than his dad has ever made in his entire life. And so maybe just, um, going off the beaten path that being able to make a certain amount of money over and above other careers that you could have done, for example, is, um, just an interesting yardstick. Yeah, this is dangerous. Okay. Um, yeah, I don't know if you know, and much of my history, Mike, but, but, um, yeah, we, we said no to partnering with Alex Harmosey. So okay. No, I had, I had a business doing multiple seven figures a year in the music space. Yeah. We were, and we bundled that up with a portfolio of different offers and we were going to sell college.com and work with Alex and Layla to scale. We were, we were one of the few businesses that could do that at the time and we said no to them. Okay. Yeah. Um, so, um, I say all that. Why did I say no to them? Well, yeah, yeah. Why did you say no to them? So many reasons. Um, it was dumb, like a very, very dumb deal structure. It was, it was so bad, it was horrible. Um, I, I, it got to the point where I said, like, if, if Mark Cuban on Shark Tank handed me this offer, all the rest of the sharks would be laughing and I would say no. So why is that I'm even like thinking of doing this? Um, just not smart, not smart for you, Blake or just, it wasn't in your interest or what you wanted to do. Yeah. Every, the deal structure and like the terms were horrible and it was dishonest and it was different than what they said. Mm. Yeah. So it was like, it was just like, sorry, you're like the second person I heard that from. Yeah. Talk to every single person who said no to them, they'll say the same thing. Yeah. My friend, he told me that he basically just wanted to be like a support mechanism and not, I don't know, it sound crazy to me, but yeah, yep, it was horrible. So they're not horrible people or anything, like I actually quite like, I liked talking to them. We talked to them at length going back and forth and very, very generous, very sweet with their time. Um, it was very fun. Like I actually say I have tons of good things to say about like their ethics and character and just how sweet they were and how generous they were when we were talking with them. But the deal structure was, was there, I mean, I should have showed it to everybody and it was like, it was, it was laughable. So I think it's really good for businesses that are completely, absolutely broken and they don't know what to do and they're sort of like, I don't say they're preying off of those people, but they just don't know what to do. They don't know what's next and it's broken. And the reality is, is to fix that it's like one or two key hires and some good strategic advice and then boom, you're fine, but it costs a lot of money to do that. Um, anyways, having said all that, um, the thing that, that really didn't resonate with me is I ultimately didn't want to become him or be like them in any regard because I looked at like seeking validation from money or my dad or all these sort of insecurities is actually not a superpower. It's actually like something that I value and want to overcome. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I'd, I'd rather, I'd rather make less money and not sell my soul, but still make lots of money doing it. You know what I mean? So, I don't know. So I'm with you on like, how do you do all this, um, from a place of authenticity where you don't feel like you have to get validation and you can keep doing what you love. Like I resonate with all of this stuff. You know what I mean? Very much with all this. Yeah. We're both music people. I get it. I think it's as simple as, let me put it this way. If I were to just sort of describe a perfect mechanism, a perfect business strategy and put it out to you, that would help and it would get you to a certain place, but you'll still feel this sort of validation thing. And I think if you address that now, you'll be able to think more clearly on what strategies you can do moving forward or listen to all the other strategies and say, maybe this will work. Maybe this will work. I think if you just get down to the root and go, why do I need that validation? Then then, gosh, you'll be able to see so much more clearly, you know? Can you, can you fill that out? When I mean validation, I ultimately just mean fulfilled, you know, totally. So explain that a little bit more where, and I might be butchering what you're saying, which is get rid of the validation, you'll be able to see more clearly. So can you dive a little bit deeper into that? Yeah, like, I mean, I can only speak for myself, but there were different markers of the business. Yeah. You know, partnering with somebody, almost partnering with Alex Ramosi, selling the company, starting a new one, doing it, like doing all of these things, making millions of dollars, buying like dream homes, like having all the time in the world, like all of these like markers that I thought would give me fulfillment, which is a good thing. Like fulfillment is good. Everybody wants to be fulfilled. But there's a difference between making something, making a good thing an ultimate thing, right? Once it's elevated to the ultimate thing, then it becomes something you worship. And you know, I think I needed to dethrone that a little bit and go, okay, this won't bring me ultimate fulfillment, right? And so, I don't know, just put it in its proper place, sort of like it's good to be fulfilled, but it's not my ultimate thing. If it is your ultimate thing, if you don't know if it's the ultimate thing, there's some pretty good questions to ask, which is, you know, how much have I time and money have I spent trying to get that type of fulfillment? How come it hasn't worked? You know, all of these things. It's not because the strategy is wrong or anything like this. It's that just a more emotional question needs to be asked is, well, okay, once I reach that fulfillment, would it actually ultimately fulfill me? All of those sort of questions, I think, need to be dug up. Once it's addressed, as I said, it's not like, okay, let's go out and try to not be fulfilled. It's just, oh, I get it. The reason why I wanted to be fulfilled, oh, my gosh, this is so embarrassing is because my entire life have been seeking this because of my parents, blah, blah, blah. You know, whatever it might be, once you see it, it's like, oh, I feel so free, but I feel so stupid at the same time, right? What would, yeah, what would you say then would be your, the thing that drives you, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The good things that become the ultimate things every once in a while, yeah, for me, it's definitely my faith, my theism, my family, you know, all of these good things, for sure. But the things that, the really good things that become ultimate things are just perversions of this. So things like, if I'm unable to provide, then my family won't love me. All of these lies, right? If I can't make a certain $1 amount, then I won't be able to spend time with my son, which ultimately he will resent me for, you know, my entire life, or all of these sort of lies that I believe that are fixated on, why do I feel those things? It's because when I was growing up, my family did this and this and this, and I haven't ever addressed those. And it turns out I haven't called my dad in a long time. You know, all of these, like, concentric, like, issues that just start, wait a second, how is this getting into like whether or not I should do a price drop on a VSL? What's going on here? It's all factored in, or at least I try to make it all factored in. So when you get, when you give up for that, for example, when you were recommending earlier, and then what kind of clarity do you get? Like what, what different kinds of decisions would be made? What kind of things would be on the table that you'd be weighing differently? Totally. I'm an amateur at this, you know, who's very good at this is somebody like Julian or Joe, by the way, and all the others. I think, I think there's a Todd's also good at this too, CP's good at this. Basically making, yeah, I'd love to hear from Julian, basically making decisions from a certain place as opposed to looking for the correct decision or strategy. It's when you're in a certain present space where you feel sort of settled on a lot of these things, there's a sort of energy that you bring to decision making that doesn't cloud out, or you can, you can make decisions not out of anger or fear or anxiety and these decisions actually feel very good and the journey becomes more fun as opposed to if only I hit this and then I'll be happy, you know, all that American pragmatism. But yeah, Julian, do you want to, do you want to chunk on this? Because the only thing I have to talk about with Mike is that he needs to have a more compelling offer raises prices, introduce a recurring coaching model. Like, there's just strategies, but he will not, he will not, that will not sit well with him until he deals with this. Julian, I'm sorry to call you on man, but do you mind speaking to this a bit? He's a expert at this. Yeah, I would love to. So I was speaking with Joe before, so I didn't catch the entire thing of the conversation. So it's like an underlying feeling that you're having, like, some restlessness or some fear or something, like, you know, like I'm following the rabbit hole right now and, and so what led us here was I mentioned, we were talking about maybe what my goals were and I said what my goals were, were feeling a certain kind of fulfillment. And that could fulfillment could come from customer success, from my customer success, my success as like a producer and then also a financial type of fulfillment. And so I think that's what ultimately led us down here. And then it was like, well, why, why the financial fulfillment? Like how are you going to get that feeling of validation from financial fulfillment? And then Blake, I mean, this is my understanding of the threat. And then Blake mentioned that if you kind of give up the financial fulfillment and these other fulfillments and you're going to get a sort of clarity. And so my question was, I mean, how do you give up those drivers, what replaces them and then what kind of clarity would you get as a result of that? What kinds of different decisions would be making? Yeah. Yeah. Didn't I miss anything Blake? Sorry. No, I was just saying that's very good self awareness, just you obviously are incredibly in tune with the present moment, who you are, et cetera, et cetera. I've got nothing but good to say about Julian, he's basically a literal guru at this. So I'd listen to what he has to say. Yeah. Cool, man. Cool. Let's do it. Thank you. So there's a fear that if those drivers are not there, you don't know where the motivation will come from, or if you will be motivated at all. I guess it's almost like there's a judgment on those. What I'm feeling is that there was a judgment on those motivators. I'm not entirely sure that they would necessarily be bad, you know what I mean? So if I did give them up, if I needed to, for example, then what would replace them? And what clarity would I gain as a result? And how would that maybe get me to my goal, which is ironic because the goal is predicated on the drivers in a way. Yeah, it's interesting. So then if you would reach the goal and let's say you would feel fulfilled, do you think you would lose your drive? I mean, it's impossible to say, you know what I mean, because it hasn't happened. So. Yeah. I don't want to hijack this direction necessarily, unless I'm totally down to talk strategies and offers and all that too, but I'm just going down the rabbit hole. Mike, I think a lot of us feel this, man. You're just the sacrificial lamb for us, that's all. All of us, I don't know, I can relate to it so much like, you know, there were things that drove me and I felt like I need to have them in place, otherwise it would just become like a couch potato and just do nothing. Yeah, I think that there can be also this uncomfortable shift, you know, where we may be whatever is driving you now, if that's not there, maybe there will even be a time where you feel like a little bit lost, or you don't know what to do, or you don't know what your purpose is, and I think that's also normal and actually help you to some degree and then maybe you reorient yourself and something deeper can come up again. I totally, I totally hear that. I think Blake, this connects back to what you were talking about as well, which is financial really the goal, and if I had like $100 million in the bank or something like that, I'd probably be doing exactly what I'm doing now anyway, but what I guess what I want is just to reach a certain level of sustenance to provide for my girlfriend, future wife, kids and stuff. So I'm trying to meet a level where I would feel comfortable being able to provide in that way, doing what I'm doing with the behaviors, right, with the like making the music and enjoying that process and then helping other producers make their music. Yeah, and also maybe I can share a little bit, because Blake was kind of asking me a similar questions on time ago, and like maybe I can share a little bit like what happened to me because he was asking me about my goals and why do I want them. And it also, it was like a little bit like, you know, shattering like, you know, like. And it made me really pause and reflect. So in my case, you know, I realized the underlying thing is I want to help people and I realized it is maybe not as complicated as I thought it was. And then it's kind of like allowed everything like to shatter or like to allow the space of like not knowing, you know, like allowing myself for a moment also to, okay, I don't know what to do now, like allowing that space maybe that feels a little bit confusing, not knowing like you're losing your ground, you know. And then from that, like some deeper insights came about like I realized, for example, that like eventually I want to, it became more clear to me that eventually I would love to help other coaches and therapists, you know, and coach them. So it kind of made actually my vision in the end like bigger, you know, and I could see how I could help even more people. But I kind of needed to let go of like everything I think I know for a moment for these other things to emerge, you know. And I would say like now I'm actually more driven, like I'm actually more energy like I'm starting group coaching and I'm so excited and so passionate. But it can feel like a little bit just orienting because in a moment you don't know what's happening and you're like, no, I need this, right. But like sometimes the way I describe it, it's like, if this like everything we know or that we think, that we think we know, you know, it's like we're only thinking inside of that box, you know, and a true innovation, the true breakthrough happens when we allow ourselves to not know and to like let go of everything and just be kind of open and then things can arise like from a deeper place. 100% dude. And so like you feel more motivated now because that seems like you're more in tune with what you think your purpose is in a way, helping people. Exactly. Yeah. I have so much energy and excitement for what I'm doing now and because I can see like the bigger what I would the deeper need, you know, that allow me to have a bigger vision actually, but at the same time, like it feels more that I'm already living it, you know, it feels more aligned, you know, 100% dude. I had no idea that the conversation was going to go this direction, what I first jumped on. Yeah. Yep. Cool. There's, yeah, there's some depth to this group. I think if you, oh, hold on, my, come on in. My lunches arrived. Hold on. Also, could I get some water, please? Thanks. My wife's like, oh, I should eat. Okay. I think, um, I think this space, the space meaning this weird online world needs, needs this though. So it's, you know, strategies, it's, it's, it's like loveless sex, dude. It's just, just mechanics, dude. Nothing fun about that. So like, I think you have to get down to the root of all this stuff. And but what I was going to say here is it reminded me of this post that I said shows how much of a hero I can be is, um, something I learned that I think you, Mike and everybody else should go through because you talked about your girlfriend, future wife, kids, et cetera. Thank you. Um, got my water, hold on, is, um, this idea of just like, I just want to like provide for this and just like make that happen. Here we go and I said that in, in the chat is the first thing is to find your basic needs. That's all you have to do. So there's this guy called Tim. He's this literal genius. Um, I didn't interview with him about selling my business. Um, an actual genius, like a certified men's a genius, um, made a bajillion dollars on Wall Street and then decided to, um, help people like me kind of like work through this stuff more on a therapeutic level, but also strategic level. So he wrote up like the acquisition strategy for everything we're doing. He looked at everything that we do with Marmosi, blah, blah, blah, blah, but also as a certified therapist, you know, whatever anyways, he sits on the very interesting to me and I'm just going to read it. You have to figure out what is it actually want. You're a good friend of mine, Tim, um, coaching me through this, he asked me what my basic needs were after about 20 minutes of me rambling, which sounds familiar to kind of like what's happening now. I've, I've been on the other than this. He repeated the magnitude. Got it. So it sounds like you just want to be able to live in New York and spend time with your family. That's it. It was that simple. Yeah. And I said it's not all about money or audience or impact, blah, blah, the reason I work is so I can live in this beautiful city, spend time with my family for some younger folks in here, I recommend taking stock of what is actually important in life, but certain a dollar amount is your goal, then you'll sacrifice your life and soul for that number. But ultimately, that number will disappoint you, the God of money that you served will never be able to give you what you ultimately want. You'll hit that number if you'll empty inside. Trust me. What are your basic human needs? Get clear on this from this build and you'll, you'll generate more joy, freedom and income and you won't look like a psycho on YouTube. Um, so the reason I say all of this is once you get clear on that, you can just simply reverse engineer it. So go. Okay. What are my basic needs? For you, it sounds like you want to be able to hang in Palm Springs and like support your girlfriend and future wife and future kids. All right. Let's get like a, let's get like a dollar amount on that. How much does it cost to live in Palm Springs, right? You know, the houses there have gone up, I know, I have one of those. And um, okay, like what does that look like, um, we're talking, you know, rent there is, you know, I don't know how much, three, four thousand bucks a month, I'm guessing, I don't know. I got a, again, I mean, $1,200 mortgage, um, your own your place. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I mean, I'm, I'm just moving, I'm literally in the process of moving, um, uh, right. So it's, yeah, are you moving into a place that you just bought? Yes. Congrats. Yeah. Thanks to Rancho Mirage. So when you come out, I know Rancho Mirage. Yeah. Yeah. Um, forgive me. I'm going to eat. Um. All good. Okay. So 12 roast month. Awesome. Congratulations. Thanks. Um, cool. Like, I can see why 10k a month is a really good step. Mm. Yeah. That's really cool. And yeah, I get it. So 10k a month. So it's, it's, it actually becomes not like 10k a month. It's like be able to provide for my future wife slash future kids financially be able to make music and be able to support and coach others also making music. Exactly. That's actually what you want to do. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. That is the end state. Yeah. So a really absurd way to look at that is if you, you know, needed to jump on a pogo stick for two days in a row in order to do that, would you? And the answer is yes. Then it's like, okay, we actually, it does actually doesn't matter how we do that. We just want to be able to do that. So that's how you define your basic needs instead of I have to make 10k a month and you know, it's just those things and then how you get there is super flex. Yeah. It does sound like you've, you found something here. You know what I mean? Like you found something with, with, with, well, I think I've stumbled upon it. I get to make music. I get to coach people. I have this community, you know, it's a really good way to do it. But it, I think you just have to be open to like, I don't think you should do this, but what if somebody paid you $20,000 a month to, to write like three songs and work with like a team of three people and it was coming from some record label and, you know, so, so some weird other strategy that you were never expecting. If are you, would you be okay with something like that? You know, I'm not saying that's what you should do, but the thought experiment is really helpful. Like, would you be, would you be down for that strategy to still get what you want? Yes or no? No. Cool. So there's another thing that you also want, which is what I mean, dude. I mean, to be, it's, it's to do, it's to, to, um, execute on the plan that I have. So it's a little bit of rigidity there, um, okay, I know, I know, but that, but I'm sensing that as you, when you ask that question, you know what I mean? Um, and so when I, when I, when I felt the, the pain, I was like, why, why do I feel like I wouldn't want to do that? And it's because it was, I would sacrifice, um, yeah, basically what I do right now. People who know me really well know that I struggle with very, very severe OCD. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So my old employees, we had a team of 33 people that hated me at some one point, um, and they didn't hate me, um, but I was so sold out for the vision that everybody was sold out on, but I was also sold out on how we got there. And that was my biggest downfall because I felt so out of control. And because I'm, I'm in a sense, I'm a producer at heart, a music producer, it has to be done this way. Yeah. Um, it would, the, that rigidity pushed people away. It helped me, it didn't help me, it, it, it didn't serve me. It basically forced me to do things very difficult in a difficult manner because I found security and protection in the strategy in my plan, as opposed to like the basic need, the ultimate goal and then the flexibility that I could embrace from getting there. That's like a, that was a learning curve for me. I'm still doing it, to be honest. Yeah, dude, how does that say with you? As you sort of sell out to your plan as opposed to your basic needs. I mean, you know what, dude, cause like my basic plan, I really feel comes from those basic needs that I mentioned earlier, which is producing and helping producers. That's what I do. Um, I think that to get to the 10K a month, what I need to do, I don't do any, I don't do any marketing right now, like literally over the past two years, I've been, I just had a webpage that said, join the community. And that's how like these people came in. Um, yeah. And so the plan that I have now, the next piece of it is just marketing is just, most of my businesses run off of like five videos that I made on YouTube a couple of years ago for whatever reason they, they just generate a lot of traffic and still do. And so my plan now is just to do a little bit more, um, YouTube videos, just get that, get like a content strategy going, um, and just generating traffic and getting people into the community. That's the plan. Can I, can I ask you a question about this? Yeah, go ahead. Of course. Do you feel like you're untapped or you're underutilized and that you're very talented and you're not, you're not leveraging your talent? Like I'm holding myself back. No, no, I, I, not that. No, like it's, it's, you know, deep down that you have so much potential and it's, it's being under realized right now. I mean, I would, I would say yes. Mm. Totally. Yeah. Cause you find dissatisfaction in not being able to execute on a very kind of straightforward plan ahead of you. Mm hmm. Yeah. Because you know that that's the thing keeping you from getting where you want to go. Yes. Totally. Yeah. That makes total sense to me. It's like, it's like how you justify what you're doing. It's, I know I can do these things then I know at least I've, I'm doing the things I need to do to get there. Yeah. I see that. Your YouTube. Yeah. CP is a total. He's an expert at this. Um, in terms of like the visuals and storytelling, that's kind of what he does. Oh, nice. Dude. Yeah. Joe also runs a, uh, Joe also runs a YouTube video, uh, or, uh, YouTube, um, channel with a million subscribers. Um, yeah. Um, there's some YouTube people on here. Oh, cool. You got like some subscribers and stuff. Mm hmm. Yeah. And people like, uh, oh, dude, you have a many videos. Well, like, yeah, I know that's what I'm saying is like a couple, a lot of my traffic just comes from videos I made a while back. And that's why it's so silly, dude. Like, that's what gets traffic for me, but I just haven't been doing it over the last couple of years. And so, but again, like what I, with the last year that I, what I was doing over the last year was, was the community and fulfilling on feedback just to get, just to get a feel for that process. And so now when I, when I release the YouTube videos and more traffic comes in, I'll feel more comfortable with, with the process that I've built for providing feedback. It's a feedback loop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just think that when you go and make those videos and execute on this creative strategy you're on, why not just build a more leveraged thing to convert the traffic? Yeah. Right now it's very, very underleveraged. It's 90, would you say 97 a month or something like this? Yeah. 97 a month. With one of courses. Yeah. Okay. So, raise the price to something, to something in the thousands of dollar range and if you think that's impossible, it's not. There's a really good call that you should probably watch with jazz. He's that bass player guy. We did this exact same thing. It was, he has a subscriber base of X amount of people that pay him X amount per month. I think it was like 300 people that pay him around nine, nine, maybe something a month or something and then he had a one-off course that was like 497 or 297 that he would sell and there was another guy Ivan in this group who has this whiskey thing. Same thing. Just four one-off courses, a subscription, you know, and like just the number one thing to those folks and you're in the same camp is like congratulations. You just built a, you just built a lead magnet course business. That's all you've done. So time to, time to create an offer that, that takes all of this and you can charge a lot more for it and do it 3000 for the year. You can split that over 12 pays. It's still recurring. Don't worry. You know, it's all good. But some sort of one-time payment plus recurring revenue model for a higher ticket offer, someone in the $3,000 range, it can be, it can be done like if, as soon as you get that situated and that figured out, then when you go and make these videos on YouTube and create authentically and you get, you get artistic with it, then you know that once they get into your leverage side of things, it will be so much more leverage, right? It will be so much more, you'll see so much more from it because you're going to make the videos anyways, might as well get paid more for it. You see? 100%. Yeah, that's true, that's an interesting way to look at it. Now, when you say leverage, in what way are you using that here? Just like small inputs, but I get a big return on it. It's that kind of what you mean by it. If you're going to sell somebody something, might as well sell them something that is more expensive. Yes. Yeah. And so there's a reason why you're not selling things in a more expensive, which is mostly around I don't think I can get away with this or would somebody really pay for this or musicians on a purchasing power, like I've heard all these. So we got to work on that. What are the you things that you got to deal with with belief? And then what are the strategic things that actually get you to a place where you have a $3,000 offer? I like through a $3,000 offer like in a musician program. What would be the fulfillment pieces, do you think? I mean, because I would have the course built out, like weekly calls, for example, coaching calls every or like one-on-one catch-ups every quarter or something like that. Like what would the fulfillment pieces do you think? So now we are equating fulfillment and what we're doing to value. So this I disagree with the premise. Cool. Cool. Good. All right. Yeah. Let's imagine that that your offer is $10,000. Okay. Okay. I see where you're going to go. So if you're, let's imagine it's $100,000. If your mind goes like, oh man, I'm going to have to wipe their butts. I'm going to have to like, you know, do room service. You know, then it's like, you, there's a certain point where not, not even, you know, you can't think of any ways to get to $100,000 for one offer, right? There's nothing that you can do to, that will service that. It all comes down to what the promise and the offer and the transformation is regardless of how many things that you're doing to get them there, right? Gotcha. Consider this way. My partner's group, okay, with me that, that work with me in college, there's no content. Zero. Okay. Yeah. Because those people understand that if they bring the right questions with their business, they will get the right response. And that is the highest leverage that we can do to transform their business. So we focus on outcome, not like at this higher price thing, you get more stuff, you see. Yeah, that makes sense. And so it's almost, the market decides what that would be worth and for your promise. So for example, my transformation was to help people get signed to their dream labels, then I can try different price points and whatever. And they decide whether or not it's worth that or not. Bingo. Now we're talking. What is the outcome and transformation that they want to sign up for? I remember when I was selling the mastering course that I had, 50, $800, first of all. Okay, 58, okay. So learn how to master a song, okay, that's what we're talking about right before that. Oh, at the end of the sales call and they said yes, the majority, like 51% of them didn't even know it was a course. Wow. Wow. Okay. That's how much I don't give a crap about like the mechanism. Wow. Okay. Literally just watch these videos for 50, 800 bucks. Is that what you mean by that? I mean, I mean, it was the exact same thing that everybody does, which is there's some element of content, some element of community and some element of fixed coaching, right? So that's fine. But what we talked about is on my marketing and my VSL and the sales calls, pains, solutions, struggles. What do you actually want? What's the desired outcome? And so when it got time to brass tax before I dropped the price, there goes, so how does it work? Well, the first phase that we're going to go through, well, first of all, what we do is we take, you know, and we would just place whatever it is that they were. We take, if I was talking on a call with a producer, a bedroom producer, who produces themselves, we take bedroom producers who are really good at music production. And we give them all the skills and tool sets or the skill sets and tools to master music like an absolute professional and start charging if they wanted to, et cetera, et cetera. Silence. Wow. How do you do that? Well, what we do is we take you through some phases. The first phase is objective listening. So remember, you were telling me that, I'm like, I have it all memorized. Remember how you're telling me that you go out to the car and listen to your mixes, et cetera, et cetera. What we do is we get your ears tuned, completely dialed in. We get your room tuned, completely dialed in so that the feedback loop is fixed so that you know that when you press play, it's what it is that that is actually translating. It's the first phase. You have any questions? No. Okay. The next question is get you to a certain place of professional skill set, professional quality within your own releases, et cetera, et cetera. I'm skipping through a lot of the third phase is actually getting you proof that you're a pro. So this is where you start making X amount of dollars. Remember how you said you want to make this much money? We'll put together a tire business plan, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Cool. Silence. They either ask how much it is or they ask, how does that happen? And I only answer the questions that they ask. So if they go, so is it like a course, I'll go, no, not necessarily. It's like a transformation. So it's not like just a course. It's basically like walking through all those phases, silence or, oh, wow. So how long is it going to take? Well, you can go at any other, you can go at your own pace, basically. It's all fixed to your pace and, you know, you don't need to worry about like starting into certain date, shut up, quiet. So you only answer the questions that they're asking. And then once they say, yeah, let's do it, we tighten the credit guard. And then it's like that person who just paid $5,800 doesn't know that there's prerecorded content, doesn't know that it's a program, doesn't know that there's coaching calls, doesn't know that there's a community, because they've sold out themselves on the transformation and the journey that they're signing up for and how you provided accurate diagnosis on the call and touched on their pain points and their solutions. Yeah. That's how you can get away with a $5,800 mastering program. And also I'm really good at mastering. So I didn't feel like an imposter, right? Yeah. So I don't know, lean into the fact that you're a great tech house producer, focus on the outcome and the transformation, and ignore any sort of feelings that value comes from more stuff. It's just not true. Cool, man. That's all amazing. And I don't want to take up any more time. But you know what I think you should do. Go ahead. I need you to watch. Sorry. I'm so rude. I think you should watch this. Let me see if I can find it. Yes, this is it. You should watch this call. We did the exact same thing with somebody else. Like same thing, in the music industry selling the same price stuff, went through the same stuff you've gone through, didn't believe that he could do it. Like you just should watch that recording and skip to, I'll even tell you what to skip to. Give me a second. Providing. That's pretty much right at the beginning. Oh, dude, it's right at the beginning. Yeah, just watch it from the top. Yeah, don't worry about taking up time. I think everybody really values this. Cool. I hope so. No, I appreciate letting me sit in the hot seat for a little while. Yeah. Thanks. I know it doesn't feel good, but it feels right. I'm ready, dude. That's why I'm here. Yeah, it's a piece of cake, dude. Like, don't worry, you got this. Appreciate it. Yeah. Cool. Thanks a lot, dude. Anybody else, guys? Three wrap ups. We keep going. What do you think? Yo, Blake, can we ask CPA question? That's why he came on. Always. Cool. CPA, you damn it. Yes, sir. Yeah. If you're open to it, do you want to share the topic that we've been discussing about burnout and stuff? Absolutely. Let's do it. Cool. Yeah, go for it, dude. Oh, I've actually had a different perspective while listening on here. First thing, the first thing is what Blake just said. I had a light bulb go off, and I think that transformation is important, and that's what I haven't figured out yet. So I think that's what I should focus on. For context, how can I give context to it? Me and Joe have been going back and forth, Joe has been helping me out with my YouTube channel and what my strengths are. So I've had this problem of music production, then doing video production, and actually being good at both and being torn between the two. I also realized on this call that I have some type of immature part of me, as Mike was talking, Blake had explained, when he was just explaining to YouTube channels. And when he mentioned my channel, he said, "CP's thing is storytelling and visuals." And I was like, "Wait a minute. I produced two." And that's something that I need to work on because I'm supposed to be moving on. So Joe, that was basically my question of overcoming this obstacle of CP. You have some great guys giving you some fantastic phenomenal advice. They've told you what they see, what's clear to them, and you're still giving pushback mentally, because I haven't said anything to you guys. So yeah, my problem was like, "Yeah, Joe told me that my strength was creating space for creators, and the visuals are amazing, and I should focus on that." But when I'm off the call by myself, I'm like, "How can I still produce music?" And I'm kind of like fighting myself. Am I making any sense? No, I really don't have a question anymore because listening to you guys hide this conversation, it was striking me. I don't know if it struck anyone else, but I was getting tidbits and nuggets and answers to questions just from listening to the conversation. So yeah. Sorry, I didn't interrupt you, dude. No, that's where I am right now. So just to clarify what you said about me helping you to find your strengths, I look at it more as I'm continuing when Blake initially called out your strengths, and we're going through that journey. So just want to paraphrase that part. And then the second part- Yeah, sorry about that Blake. It was just like spur at the moment, but yeah, that's a valid point. This started out with me being a part of Incubator, which is an amazing program. Cool, cool. And so the second part, which is kind of a meta point to your point, which is I think the whole point is to ask the question. So how you say it's like not to have to listen in and hear, but the question is what is the question to ask? And now that we have listened to everybody, what is the question to ask? And so it's funny that you say that because when we were trying to communicate our offer and I could not figure this out for like four years, I'm serious, four years until Blake came around. And I was like, Blake, we're so many things. We're Chinese medicine, we're Western science, we're this, we're that, we're that, and he just gave me an elbow straight to the face is that Joe, what are you? I want you to force into three categories. And I was like, no, but Blake, I'm this, I'm that, I'm a genius. But that's what I was basically trying to say, like subconsciously, we're so good. I'm not just this one thing. And he's like, Joe, I know you're all a this, I know you're very good at all of this stuff. But just as a sake, to communicate to people who look at things simply pick free buckets and bucket everything into that. And so what he made me realize is that there's a difference between your ability and how great your product is and the results you get, and just how you communicate it into three simple buckets. And those two things are actually separate. You see, because what he was showing to me is that we can encapsulate everything we do into literally free buckets, Chinese medicine, Western science, nutrition and stuff like that. Yes, there may be more, yes, I might be a producer, yes, I might be a musician. Yes, I'm blah, blah, blah, right? It's just a holistic offer. And so him forcing that into me allowed me to execute. And at the same time, it allowed me to kind of ask the question, like you're asking, which is good. Why do I feel like that? What are we trying to prove here? Why is there this tension? And he helped me to figure out, and it was kind of weird. I would never go ahead and say he equaled out. The tension for us is that I didn't accept that I was more of an Eastern worldview. And also that I didn't understand the kind of American and Western worldview. So that's why I didn't want to put it into the bucket of saying, hey, I'm just Eastern Western plus nutrition. You see? Like, understanding who you really are and your offer being different from them. Does that make sense? Yeah, compartmentalizing things. Would that be the correct way to say it? Yeah, well, I think your offer is like an extension of you. Correct me if I'm wrong, Blake, because you can help. You're probably the best person to sharpen the thinking on this. No, I completely agree with you. I think what CP is getting at is to segment and compartmentalize it is the way to get clarity for sure. But I think what Joe is trying to say or is saying, kind of blending these ideas together is I'll kind of add my twist to this. CP, if you wanted to just make a thing that fits into a model, you have like a few different options and you just got to pick one. It's pretty simple. You just conform yourself to the model, right? Okay, I'm just going to make some money selling a chorus. I'm going to make a beat making chorus because I'm really good at beat making, but I'm going to sell for $29.97 and I'm going to apply the model and make all this money or here's how to do really good music videos in this budget-friendly way, but there's all these different things that you could make because you're a genius just like Joe is. The thing, there's an overarching thing that's the through line through all of that, which I was getting at, which is his, hey, check out CP's YouTube channel. He's really good at visuals and he's a good storyteller, but everything you talk about with music or video, I don't see any of that. I go like, what's the fundamental underground talent within that? That's who you are. And if you can find an offer within there, you'll actually enjoy the offer instead of just like, I'm going to sacrifice myself and compartmentalize myself to do that one thing. I think that's the best way. That's the most enjoyable way forward. Yeah. I think that's super interesting just to add to that is that reducing it to those things like Blake says, which is like storytelling and visuals, does not mean that you have to cut out music. Correct. I think that is the whole thing here. Right. Reducing it to Chinese medicine, Western and plus diet doesn't mean that we can't be caring all the way up until they fix their disease. Does that make sense? Like, putting those limits and bounds around it doesn't mean that you, you're taking away a part of you. Yeah, I think that this is a discovery phase and one of the other things that I didn't mention a few, a few minutes ago is what came up when you guys were talking was, I love my four year old son, my youngest son dearly because I learned so much from him. And the thing that I've learned from him recently, it means so much is I sit back and I watch how he plays. I watch how he plays. So at one moment he's on the iPad, he's just Roblox dad. Look, look, I built this and then he'll put the iPad down, no tension and he'll go to Jenga blocks and he'll start playing with the wooden Jenga blocks. And I'm like, that's so amazing. That's how I want to be instead of taking labels, because labels bring stress, am I this? What am I, am I going to do this, or it's like, why not just play? Does that make any sense? We're not attaching to an identity. I think having a habit of wanting to attach to an identity can be, it's, it's, it's hurtful because it just keeps you in this cycle and you don't go anywhere. So yeah, so why, why, why were you feeling fun out? Because of what I just discussed about the identity, it just sneaks up on you, like I'm, I'm really working on how to control my mind and not let my mind control me. That makes any sense, because these identities and these labels sneak up, I need to do this kind of video. Oh, well, I'm leaving out this. I need to also show that I can do this that actually takes out the authenticity and the content sometimes and at least trying to perfect things, trying to perfect putting out a specific message like Mike was saying, trying to feel validated in all of the areas. I can do all of these things. It is, it can become dangerous if you're not aware of it. I think that's exactly what, that's a good point is exactly what Blake said. Who are you trying to get validation from? Right. Yeah, that's the question because that group puts the judgment, gives you the labels. Yep. And then the answer is fall into your lap too, like the last few days, I've had some requests to join my school group and I'm looking at the requests and I'm like, oh God, I have to change what I'm putting out because I'm attracting the wrong people. I'm trying to attract a different kind of audience than just people who want to make beats, you know? So which is funny, right? As you said, well, I'm a music producer too. Exactly. Exactly. This ambitious loop is not healthy. Blake, I think, you know how you explain to us that we don't need to limit ourselves to just one thing like fibroids, we can do the whole spectrum. Do you want to talk about that because I think that's where the tension is here. Sure. You mean that how concentric do we make these offers? Because you have the front door of in to solve and then you have the offer itself, right? So a very linear way to approach it and it stopped me at any point where it's not what you were trying to say is for instance, Joe and his business partners offer, it's like a woman's health issue offer, like, you know, within their womb, like basically like pregnancy, you know, period of pains, et cetera. In an event, if you look at it just very two dimensionally, you just go, yeah, right? Of wombs, like problem, women have fibroids solution fix their fiboid issue. Let's build a $3,000 course on fibroids or a period pain problem solution, like every period pain, $3,000 course on period pain. There's a couple other ones like infertility or something like this. Like problem, infertility, like solution, like don't be infertile, $3,000 infertility issue, you know, but all of those things are just so two dimensional. I think with their offer, it's all of those things are symptoms of a deeper problem, which is their offer, their actual offer. So like the front door is like, are you experiencing period pains, fibroids, infertility, and then you can kind of go on from there, right? Stress, cysts, et cetera, et cetera. All of those things are what gets you in to be like, I'm listening, I'm listening for fibroids, okay, or I'm listening for a period pain, or for UCP, I'm listening for music, I'm listening for beats, you know, whatever, but they are just the front door. It's not the offer that just gets people into this idea, right? And then for their offer, it's like the reason why you have fibroids, the reason you have period pain is because you don't have a healthy womb, it's like this womb academy thing. The way that you fix this is through all of these other kind of concentric things, it's like the right diet, exercise, stress levels, you know, blood pressure work that needs to be done. Once you actually get that done, then your fibroids issue will be fixed, or your period pain issue will be fixed. So your front end marketing is touching on all these different things, but ultimately that just gets them excited about what it is they want to fix. And what you tell them is, here's what you need to fix that. And it's something that you never thought of. That's the key that I think Joe's trying to get at. I'm guessing he brought that up because you have all those. It's like, what do this have in common, this haven't common, this haven't common, this haven't common. It's actually people to get people in the front door. But there's a problem and a solution that covers all of those things that's more authentic to who you are, something that you've discovered in your life. I think that's why Joe had me bring this up. Was that kind of what you were wanting or getting at Joe? Yeah, I know exactly that. And I think why it's difficult to struggle that you feel, which I felt CP is that Blake has this concept because Blake likes to fly planes is a pilot. And he goes, Joe, like learning from Blake was like, I was learning how to fly a plane. He was like, Joe, depends which feet you are. Are you looking at this like a 10,000 foot view or a 500 foot view? All right. And I was like, there's different feet. I only look at it from a one foot view before, right? And basically, at the top level, he says like 10,000 foot level is that it's you CP, you're not just a producer, you're not just a storyteller, you're not just a disc, you have many things and that can catch people in. But when you bring land the plane, as Blake says, when you land the plane down to to runway, that is who you are, there's something authentic there which catches it all. And for us, Blake says, Joe, if you have a drawing of a woman, it's their womb area. That's where you are at. That catches everything. And so that kind of gets into the point of where he was saying that you like to create these worlds where people can create music, storytelling, visuals, and you create these spaces. That encapsulates everything at that level. And then also, the rub was when he said that to me, I was like, yeah, but that doesn't solve my identity issue. So I'm trying to get Blake to solve all my issues, right? And he's like, I'm like, how do I communicate this to people? Because when I say to them, like, oh, I help people with fibroids, blah, blah, blah, I need like one word that encapsulates it all. And so the struggle that you may be feeling with your community is that, well, that's your community name, that's your brand name. It doesn't have to, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, here, Blake, encapsulate like the offer name, for example, our methodology is called the natural method, which is a combination of traditional Chinese medicine, Western science, nutrition. That's our methodology. Our company is called the holistic womb academy, right? Our YouTube channel is called Austin Go. And so at different points, they're cool, different things. And I think that's probably what you may be struggling with coming to terms with is at which level do I cool things, not if those pieces are correct or not. Does that make sense? Yeah. You just shed a light on it. For sure. For sure. For sure. That makes sense. That makes so much sense. Yeah, because as soon as Blake solved that problem, I was like, how do I go out and tell the world that we are the everything to do with the womb, right? How do I tell my neighbor, tell my friend, right? And because I was so excited that, oh, we finally cracked this thing where I don't need to chop off my arm to do business, you know, I still, you know, it's still a part of me. But then how do I kind of just communicate that in a one dimensional way to the average person, right? And that's, as you start getting transparency from 10,000 foot to one foot, the way that you know that you're getting clarity is that you will have the problem that you're facing now. That's why you'll feel like an identity issue. Yeah. It makes so much sense. It does. Yeah. And so it doesn't mean that all those other things are wrong. It just means that you're coming along in a sequence of, oh, how do I communicate this to my neighbor now? Okay. Yeah. I do think that's so insightful, Joe. I think just some very, very simple, basic sort of kind of not company brand questions, but like CP brand questions, like who is, who are you, you know, and kind of just get more in tune with your life, your story, who you are and how you communicate your messaging to people, the way that this, the way that I think everybody needs this, by the way. But I personally went through this last week of a branding guy. We started talking about college and the branding, et cetera. About 20 minutes in, we stopped and he's like, it sounds like you just need more clarity on who you are and you don't really know how to communicate. You're this music producer and you're also this other guy. And you like, but you spend time reading philosophy and then you also do all that education and videos. Like you're all over the place and there's, how do we communicate who you are? I know what college is. And I felt this too. I didn't, I didn't quite know. And he helped me see that there's in everything I do, there's some common themes. Those are the things I need to chunk down on. For me, it was just maybe it's helpful for you. It was like six words, it was seriousness, sincerity, authority, gosh, he just sent me the pitch deck of the days, authority and there are a few others, there's like six words. And then we did this thing that like out of all of these sort of things, are you like an artist or this? I was the sage. So I'm like a sage, okay, there's some sort of wisdom in everything that I do. And then what do I, what do I do in everything that I do? That's a common theme in terms of how I help people. So it's asking questions from different angles. And there was a common theme of when people interact with me, they either feel underutilized. They don't have a new vision for their life and stuck. And then what I bring them is a new vision, a brand new life ahead of them. I bring them clarity first and foremost. And then I bring them like a, I bring them like, what was it? Like love, mentorship, all this, it's, anyways, it was helpful for me to see all these things because whether college exists or not, that happens, whether mastering.com exists or not that happens. Whether I'm a husband or not, like that happens whenever I'm interacting with people that happens. Everything that I do, there's, there's those common themes here. So that identity, you carry that with you wherever you are, as opposed to I have this offer that I sell, I sell people how to make beats. And that's who I am, you know, the intersection that offer better have all of those pieces of who you are in it, but that's not who you are. That's just one little piece of your life. It's not who your entire world, you know what I mean? Does any of this make sense? I'm just trying to, I can relate to you, I think. Yep. Yeah. Have you defined your, your, your own personal values TP? Yeah. That's, that's, that's the rub. That's what I'm working on now. I'm a step closer, I'm a step closer from hopping on his college call. That's for sure. Yeah. You're on the right path, dude. It's just that. For sure. As you, as you're peeling back the layers, you're like, Oh, there's more, there's more, there's more, there's more, there's more. And then you got, I'm going to hit the wall, right? So, yeah. And then you can make a brand archetype like Blake's telling you, like, which was your brand archetype, you know, two people. Once I get this, like a little pitch deck back, I'll, I'll send it to you or send it to all you guys. Yeah. It's just, it helped me. My brand archetype. It's really, it's great. It separated me from my business, but I also saw that all of these aspects are in my business. Mm. I forget, since serious, serious, authority, spiritual, two more, I just can't, can't do that. Does that help? Dude. And does that answer your question about burnout? Because that there's more that we could go through on the whole burnout topic. I just want to, like, you know, are you sure? Yeah. Um, I was a person that already did this, but Blake emphasized it more. Like I've just learned every day how to think for myself. So I learned how to talk through things like this and think through things and then get some sleep. I wake up the next day, ready to roll, you know, yeah, it's super interesting, because I think what Blake is really good at is that he said this earlier about removing the queen off the chessboard. And he questions whether the queen is really important or not. And it's like, you know, like how you interact with your blood is what his labels, like we'll be at this very like different level, and then he'll go like a level deeper and be like, well, you know, who is, who is judging who are you seeking validation from? And then the more you go, ask those questions around that thing, that's when you really get to the heart of the matter as he likes to say, you know? Guys, this was a great talk. This is the second call I've been on, I've just been mind blown again, like I'm not sure if you guys been in other courses for like more money or whatever, but this just far surpasses it. Even close, yeah, bro, it's because you're here. I think it's, it's, it's the people that makes it really amazing, you know, yeah, just imagine if we were on a call and we're all just like bragging about how much money we're making, like how actually shallow that would be, you know, yeah, like what do you mean by the COVID Queens? Is that what COVID took out you mean? Yeah, that whole removing the queen thing. I thought of that when COVID hit all of these things that exist in one way was forced to not exist in that way anymore. So what COVID did was it removed the queen. Sorry, you're learning from COVID, basically, I hate to say it, but I think it accelerated something I was already thinking, which was the work queen was you need an office space to do work. Let's remove that queen. And you saw right now, like, whoa, that's right, Roman, my business took off, you know, search queen, like, no more Sunday service, what are you going to do? You just you just centered your whole damn business model off of a Sunday service, you just centered your whole damn like work culture off of the office, social queen, you just centered your whole damn, you know, social life on in person hangouts, like you can either get depressed about it or think, okay, we just move, we just removed the queens. There's an answer here that's more creative and more sustainable because we got too reliant on the queen. That's kind of what I mean. So once I started seeing that happen and seeing that you can do work without an office space, that more, you know, church work doesn't happen on Sunday and that you can develop real friendships online, I realized that it's a good thing to remove the queen because it exposes creativity and innovation and how you do things. You know, that was my biggest fear in starting my own production company, because I thought I had to supervise all the filmmakers, I was going to start investing it. But once I realized that it's actually good not to do that, because I mean, we all don't like having a shoulder, but, you know, I mean, somebody looking overall shoulder, you know. And once I realized that, and I realized I could focus on my own films, like things just clicked instantly, it was just, yeah, mmm. I'm hosting a thing this evening where all these different people show up from all these different worldviews, I've got like a Buddhist coming, somebody who's like, who's a philosophy major, also as a transgender person, we've got like a secular atheist, we've got like a Christian, we've got an Anglican priest, it sounds like a joke, we all walked into a bar. Anyways, they're all coming over tonight, and we're just like talking about worldview and seeing where it goes, and they're going to show up in 15 minutes so I got to run. I'll let you know how it goes. I love it, man. Good luck. Thank you so much for this call. I really appreciate you hearing me out, and everybody talking. I appreciate it all. Appreciate it. I'm excited for you Brandon. He sounds like you have a lot of clarity with what you want to do. Yeah. Mmm. Yeah, really good seeing you all. Sounds like you have a couple cool breakthroughs that you have as well. Yeah, thank you so much, guys. It's been an awesome call. It's my first one as well. So much value, like just like Brandon said, like it's unbelievable value. So I'm super excited for the launch of incubator, and I want to sort of this journey. I've got a super lot of value out of you, so thank you so much, guys. Mmm. I forgot about that launch. Thanks for reminding me. And if you find my room and remove my queen, if you know what I'm saying. I think so. Remove the queen. Yeah. And then Mike, it was cool getting to know you a little bit more, man. Maybe we can connect in July if you're there. Yeah, man. Hit me up. Thanks for letting me on. Yeah. Go on deep. Go on real deep. We can go to Cartel Coffee, that place. I go to it every morning when I'm there. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I'll check out. Do your bike. What's that? Both of you do dirt bike? I don't dirt bike, but I like to dirt bike. Okay. All right. If you're down, let's dirt bike. Are you like in that area as well? Yeah. I go there all the time. Mmm. Yeah. I'll be in there in July. That'd be cool. We can do ATVs. Go. Okay. Everybody. Take care. Bye-bye. - Right. - Right.