Although it's not quite as extreme as Jonah being, "I hate these people, I'm not going to do this, and God forces him to do it," and it's a great success, but then he's really angry. Our model's not that. Our model certainly hasn't been without its flaws or well planned out. It just seems that God is creating opportunities, and we're going through that door to see what happens, and then he's building on that, but is it planned? Is it something we've come up with? No. Other than that original question I said earlier is to ask that question, "How do you best serve God with what you have?" Welcome back everyone to The Chog was all the podcast, and it is awesome to have you along with us, my name's Joel, one of the co-hosts here, and we're here at Marina Congregational Church in our podcast studio, which we like to call Third Space Studio, and I'm joined by two lovely men on what we call on the Chiplunch podcast, "The Solublubrius Lounge." It was a start with Solubrius, and then because it's blue, Braden, one of our pastors called it, "Sublubrius." "Sublubrius." Yes. That's a lot harder to say. It is very hard, and Tim, welcome back to the podcast, you went here last week, but it's lovely to have you back. It's great to be. Same jumper as last time, I think. Oh, no. That's my new favorite jumper. Is it? Yeah. Is that because it's new and it's warm? Yes. Absolutely. It's really cold and silly at the moment. It is, isn't it? Yeah. You know, yesterday, I think it was even colder than today, there was a little bit of ice on my windscreen. Okay. Yeah. Well, my car is backed outside. It was like, "Whoa, it is really cold." And I didn't realize it was that cold until I walked out of the door, and I was worried that my daughter was underdressed a little bit for preschool. And then I could just wipe the windscreen and I'm like, "This couple of pieces of ice came off it." I'm like, "Ooh, it's cold. It is cold." Well, today, when we're recording, is the winter solstice, so it's the shortest day of the year. It doesn't necessarily end in the coldest, but it is with... Very cold yesterday. Yeah. Not much warmer today. That's true. Yeah. This is from tomorrow. Excellent. Exciting. It's only going to get better. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Can only get better. The voice you can hear on the other side is Anthony, welcome. Thanks, Joel. We are having you on the podcast today because you and your wife, Trudy, are planning very soon to go over to Ethiopia for long-term, and we're going to chat about that, and you've been a number of times before, but you're going to go for a much longer period. Yes. And so we're going to start hearing about that as we go through the podcast and your feelings about it, and what do you think God's planned for you and all those kind of things. But before we do that, we always like to start with the cultural artifact. And as our very esteemed guest on the podcast, you said you had one for us. You're still starting reading a book. I just started reading a book called Biblical Critical Theory by Christopher Watkins. So I've only read the first little bit, but I really love Biblical theology, and he links this in with culture really well, I think. I haven't read it yet. I've only read as I said, I think I've read the first two chapters but looking forward to it. First impressions. So far. Because Tim's read it, so we'll get to it. Loving the detail that he goes into, I've just read about creation and just how he brings out points from the Bible and relates that to culture and how the Bible fits together. Love it. Good so far. Yeah. Good so far. Tim, your sociological interest is very peaked by this book. I loved it. Yeah. It's really good. It's a very large volume. It is a large volume. It does a lot of heavy work in terms of both theologically but also philosophically, sociologically. He's bringing a lot into this. Tim has said that it's quite readable if you, I suppose, I don't know what the reading level would be, maybe upper high school, high high school, but if the names of philosophers and sociologists and theologians don't scare you, then you could probably do a good job reading through. And he'll mix, he'll talk about nature on the one hand and then Taylor Swift, interchangeably. He'll just so much pop culture in the way that he refers to things as well as his deep reading. So, it's back and forth all the way through, so yeah, but we read it as a youth work staff team last year, which was really helpful, really good, yeah. What do you think, how has it helped you reading that book? Yeah, I was just pulling out a few reviews here just to remind myself of what it is. The Christianity Today review, they're heading here, I think, is really good. It says the Bible does everything critical theory does, but better. And this is his whole motif is this whole idea of critical theory is a critical theory is one that looks at the world as it is and critiques it from a particular point of view. So a feminist critical theory will critique what we see here and filter all of that through a feminist land. Okay, what's happening to the women in this story? What's happened to the girls in this story, where a power dynamics happening that oppressed women and overplayed men. So that's a feminist critical theory will do that. And so forth, you could, you know, racial critical theories, et cetera, et cetera. So he's using that same kind of dynamic of a critical theory is one that looks at culture and says, all right, how do we interact with and critique culture? And he says a biblical critical theory, so using the Bible. So this is what Anthony said about the biblical theology. He starts from Genesis works is all his way through to new creation, Revelation 21-22. And he is simultaneously telling the story of biblical theology and telling the story of the Bible and using that as a lens through which to go, okay, well, so therefore, how do we understand advertising the fact we live in a capitalist society and you walk past however many thousands of adverts per day. How do you understand that because of creation, redemption, new creation, sin, fallenness, all of those kinds of things. And so yeah, he does that in a really, really helpful and deep, thick way, like a really, really robust kind of way. And he's trying to pick apart like two different worldly theories and how the Bible, not being a compromise, but actually has a better way of fulfilling those two theories, for example, he pulls apart things quite regularly and trying to think of an example, but I can't think of one off the top of my hand. His phrase is diagonalizing, so these ideas, so maybe take environmentalism, like we should absolutely save the planet and so therefore reduce industry in order to save the natural world versus no, we need to increase industry because human flourishing comes from an increase in industry, even if that comes at the detriment of the planet in an environment. And he would say here are two particular secular world views. And he said, well, if you properly understand creation and the creational mandate, we actually said that the Bible can hold both of those two in tension in a way that both affirms both and holds both relative to each other. So you don't have to play these off against each other. You can affirm the need for both, and so all the way through, he's tracking these. And this is rooted in his sense of fallenness, so when we, because of Genesis 3 and the fact that we are fallen, we will err towards de-emphasizing some part of God's story against the other. So the high environmentalists will say, well, no, if people have to freeze in order to not cut down the Amazon for burning wood or mining the earth for coal, then it's probably better for the humans to extinct. And so you have someone of the very far environmentalist side who are for anti-natalism and for, you know, we should reduce the population, we should be enforcing that from a government level down because actually the natural world is so important that human need doesn't overtake the need to look after the environment. And then you've got, you know, right over the other side of the equation. Well, no, industry is so key to human flourishing. And if we've got to kill a few rainforests or dig up a few coal-like massive mines in order to achieve that, and if that pollutes and bleachers, the Great Barrier Reef, so be it. Like, we actually need human flourishing, and industry will help support that. And so you have these kind of two tensions, and he, the way he then unpacks a deep, rich, thick theology of creation is to say, but, you know, the Bible can hold both of these intention at the same time, and then he starts to give solutions, so that would be a good example of that. Yeah. So he's drawing a diagonal line in between the two in a sense. Yeah, so that's, he's drawing a diagonal line, so it's not a little bit of this and a little bit of this. Yeah, it's not a compromise. Yeah. It's the ultimate solution, if you like, that the Bible brings. Yeah. And actually, back on what you said about the philosophers, I'm not very philosophical, but I didn't find that overwhelming, so because his style of writing is, is fairly easy to read. Oh, that's awful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the points that he makes are really interesting. Yeah. That kept me going. And you said you've just started to read it. Was there, like, a particular motivation behind wanting to read this book at this particular time? I'm particularly into biblical theology. It's probably the main thing I've been teaching in Ethiopia, so biblical theology for anyone who's unsure, it's basically treating the Bible as one book. And it puts all of the Bible into context. So when you were looking at any particular passage or book, you can see its context in the flow of the whole story of the Bible. Yeah. So I think it, after the gospel. I think it's pretty close to the next, most important thing I would be teaching in a Bible college. Yeah. I have learned a lot about that just doing the certificates, theologies, that, you know, you kind of aware that the Bible is like, well, I have been aware of the Bible being a whole story, but until you kind of dig into it a bit, you're like, ah, yeah. And I found that, and it's interesting you said that you found that it's really been really great when you've been teaching that in Ethiopia. And for me, though, is that, like, I think my faith has been strengthened a lot by it. And then also your ability to share the gospel, that is, is really, really important. So yeah. I think it's foundational to at least to any other biblical subject. So if you want to study Corinthians, it's probably good to have done some biblical theology before you. Yeah. I've found that. I've found that's really helpful here. We're taking a break from, we're talking about our, our series is lately we've been talking about being resilient disciples. I think this will kind of come up in a sense anyway, but it's cool that you brought up biblical, there's a biblical critical theory, because there's kind of a bridge from what we were talking about last week of being a one of the reasons, one of the ways of being resilient disciples is that we have cultural discernment. So that biblical theory critical theory makes a lot of sense in that, in that regard. But we're going to focus on your move to Ethiopia, impending move to Ethiopia. Tell us though, what, what led you to this position that you and your wife, Trudy, decided to say, this is what we're going to do. We're going to move over to the Ethiopia long term in order to hopefully share the truth and love Jews. Yeah. Yeah. Long story, but I'll try and keep it brief at a time and interest. Um, basically I was born, no, um, essentially, since we've been married really, we've always asked the question, how do we best serve God with what we have? And that can be, the answer to that can be anything, um, really. But in asking that question, I think I've been in secular work most of my life. So I think the risk is that you forget to ask that question and you drift along in your life and suddenly 10 years have gone by and you haven't reevaluated, how do you best serve God? Because that can change over time, particularly in transitional stages of your life, um, you know, whether it's marriage, having kids or parents, um, looking after parents or losing a job or whatever, there's good times to ask that question in particular. So Trudy and I've always looked to ask that question and that led us to explore should I become an Anglican minister or not? And so we went to more college for a year in 2000 to look into that. The answer was no, um, but that's okay. Um, Stu, I love what you do, um, but, um, uh, what it did do is that we, we saw some students present on teaching biblical theology in Nigeria and I looked at a mate of mine and we kind of said, oh, we could do that. And so we started to explore how that could, could work and it ended up Nigeria fell through and it's slightly a funny bad story, but we organized the trip to go to Nigeria and we had a, a location all sorted, but at the, at that time the Miss World competition was held at Nigeria and, um, there was, because Nigeria is sort of half Christian, half Muslim, there's a lot of tension, particularly about Miss World competition back then and it led to a lot of rights and a whole lot of people were killed at the back of the compound we were going to. So we didn't go there, went to India instead, uh, and started teaching the Bible there, uh, in my annual even stuff like that, because I thought it was something I could, I could do teaching biblical theology. So something you're passionate about? Something I'm passionate about, interested in, yeah, and, and I think a lot of the, a lot of these passes in India in particular weren't getting any theological education, so biblical theology is a good grounding for any other theological education that they might get later on. Yeah. So that was part of it. So I ended up doing that for a number of years, uh, and at the same time some friends were, um, visited their compassion child sponsor, uh, that their child sponsor in Ethiopia and it happened to be at this location, which had a Bible college and they got to talking about the leaders there and, and they said, oh, we know this guy, Anthony, that teaches in India, um, and they said, oh, can you come to Ethiopia? So I came, uh, that was in 2008, I went there, taught, and basically, if you know anything about me, I'm analytical, I plan things, I don't rush into things, but I sent an email to every, all of my friends while I was over there saying when we come back as a family, and I hadn't spoken to Trudy about this and unfortunately she's always wanted to be a missionary in Africa. I never have, uh, so we ended up, that was okay, we ended up going back as a family and spending 10 weeks there, uh, the following year, so 2009. And that's when we fell in love with the place, both Trudy and I met, um, became good friends with the, um, local leaders in the north of Ethiopia. Yeah, right. Yeah. So that was the starting. And I think because we had Trudy on super much podcast before, and she said, you guys mean they're 15 times now, is that right? Uh, 15 years. Okay. Last 15 years. I've probably been maybe a dozen times. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. What is your, when you first went to Ethiopia, what was like the biggest culture shock that you, that you can remember? Interesting. Um, in all honesty, the biggest culture shock was coming back, not reverse culture shock. Okay. So I had a Miranda Fair for about two weeks after coming back, just the consumerism was overwhelming for me after being in a situation of poverty and, um, suffering, which was fairly commonplace in Ethiopia. Yeah. You know, beggars on the street, people asking for food wherever, wherever you go. So, so that was, that was hard, but actually found coming back harder and that, that declines, we've been in about two weeks, I'm back to normal. So it's not like a permanent thing, but it's happened every time I've been really well. Yeah. Yeah. Tim, you've, um, you've been to Africa as well. Yeah. Very briefly. Yes. Very briefly. Yeah. Did you have a similar thing when you went to Uganda and came back or was it just more of a culture shock going into Uganda? Uh, yeah. I don't think I, I don't think I was there long enough to experience the culture shock coming back, it was more like a, uh, interesting, exotic holiday. Uh, in, in terms of, uh, I don't mean that crassly. I mean, like as in it was just not, it was new, it was very not Western suburbia. Uh, and so there was that, oh, this is curious and interesting. And, um, part of the, I was part of, well, it was just me and my CEO, um, at the time for youth works, he had been a number of times. He's got good relationships with a number of the Anglicans right throughout Africa. Um, and so he, it was his fifth or sixth trip over to speak or be a part of a large youth convention. Uh, and youth through Africa is kind of 12 to 30 year olds. So it's, you know, just young adults as yes, you would say. And so he was invited back and he had a habit of taking people with him, whether it be one of his own kids or someone else along. And so I think it was 2016, I think it might have been, uh, took me across with him. And so yeah, we got hosted by Anissimus, uh, who was then an Archdeacon at the time. I think he's now a bishop. Uh, and he hosted us, took us around, put us up in hotels. Yeah. And, uh, so that was really lovely. Uh, so yeah, I think part of the experience was it was, it was a hosted visit. There was particular things that we were doing that, so there was an itinerary, clear itinerary throughout the day. So yeah, there were interesting bits of going, oh, this is very not suburban Sydney. Uh, but I don't think I was either there long enough to have a full culture shock there or on the return. Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. I've got a question there though, and you guys are actually alluding to this before we, uh, started recording. What's it like spending quite a bit of time there where you probably can't speak the language very well? Is there, why don't you go first, Anthony, but you had a really interesting discussion about translators. I wonder if you can, you can tell us about that because I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. Um, we were talking about whether like, um, how it's, it's hard sometimes speaking English when people may not understand you very well and that can lead to all sorts of problems. And then we got to talking about translators and that's not always guaranteed of success either. And I just told the story of, um, when I was in India once, um, uh, Westerner was preaching and, um, suddenly everyone started laughing or, or the congregation of Indian started laughing. And I just thought it was a bit too much. And so I was sitting next to an Indian guy and I said, what happened there? I'm missing something. And he said, ah, yeah, the translator just said, the guy made a joke. It's not funny. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but if everyone laughs now, it'll be fine. So when you know it in other language, you miss these nuances. Yeah. Totally. That's really funny. But the other thing I said before too, about working with the translators often good too, because you've got time to think, ah, before you say your next sentence, which can be really helpful, particularly if you're teaching something that you're not particularly familiar with or it's been, um, it, you've been asked to do it off the cuff. So that's a, it can be a positive. Does it help you learn the language in the other way? If you hear, if you say something and then sort of that gets translated, does that help you learn the language back the other way? I think it does a little, but I'm usually too focused on what I'm going to say to learn language that way, but if I was watching someone being translated, that would probably be much more effective way that, yeah, was that similar for you Tim, even when you're, you know, you're 10 days in Uganda? So in, in Uganda, particularly where we were English is, I don't know if it's an official language, but it's, it's a dominant language. That's widely spoken. Yeah. Why are they spoken? So you, and because Uganda, like I mentioned, most of Africa, there's lots of different tribal and language groups there. So they'll all have their language group for their tribal area that they'll grow up learning, but you learn English fairly quickly because it's language of education. Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. So definitely in the schools. So yes, yeah, all of our hosts, all of the, you know, restaurants and hotels and staff and, you know, traffic officials and everyone that you talk to can speak English, so it's relatively easy to get around in that way. When we went to the youth conference, it was interesting so there was some things that were in English, some things that were in local languages. And so I was just telling, so before that there was some, you know, big talks. It was probably at 10,000, 10 days there at this school in this big open field area. And so you had the preachers that were doing sessions and you had their translator with them. So if the preacher was speaking in one of the local languages, the translator would communicate in English and vice versa, you know, when my boss spoke, he did a 40-minute sermon. So he spoke in English and it was translated. And one of the things that was most interesting to me was the, I didn't pick up any language by doing that, but I was watching the translators and they would not just communicate the language, but they would also embody the personality of the speaker. So some of the speakers were quite, you know, large personalities, very charismatic. They were animated. They were wandering back and forward across the field. They were, you know, shouting and just articulating with their hands and you watched the translator and they were mirroring all of that. They were also wandering back and forward. They were also being very large with their hands. They were also just articulating. So, but then that same translator, you know, my boss is at the time, like, yeah, he's exact. He is not a large charismatic personality. He's more of a, you know, stand still, preach the gospel, open the word. And so the translator for him was also very much standing there, translating the word, very, so the mirroring of personality and tone and just articulations was just really fascinating for me as well. So that was really interesting to watch. The other experience I had was I got told before we left that I was going to lead a seminar on how to teach children through song. So I prepared, you know, a seminar, I had some handouts, I got told you, you'd probably be in the classroom with the translators. I got great. I'm, I'll make some slides up to make it a little bit more interesting. And we got there. It was like, oh, we're going to split up into these seminars. Now, Tim, you're under that tree. You may or may not have a translator, we're not sure if I'm available. And you'll just have whoever turns up. So I ended up under this tree with, you know, 50 delegates there of sort of late high school, maybe age, 15, 16, 17. I no idea if they could speak English or not, they didn't give a lot back. And so I tried, I started trying with my seminar, I've just, I guess I'll just say just, it didn't land. Like, I was just watching them and they're all polite, but just, you know, blanking us in their eyes of. So I just go, oh, we'll just, let's just sing songs together. So I just taught them some songs that we knew from children's ministry in Australia. And they sang, we just all sang together. And that was kind of, that was my time, seven percent, and nothing else up my sleeve. So yeah, that was interesting. Is it hard, Anthony, trying to communicate the gospel in somewhere like Ethiopia where you can't fully speak the language? I definitely, I mean, even in the Bible college that we're going to, it's an English Bible college, but the heart language of everyone there is a Marek. So the horrible conversations are in a Marek, the prayer times are in a Marek. If you get to a difficult theological point, they'll talk about it in a Marek because English just doesn't go far enough or clear enough for the students. Even some of the students' English is probably no better than Joel's a Marek, you know, which is quite nil, I presume. Zero. Zero. So you're dealing with students who have been sent to Bible college because they're godly people, not because they meet the criteria of having the English skills to be able to go there. So, yes, it's a big impediment to only have English. And that's why Trudy and I, when we go, will spend at least a year full time in Addis doing language learning, but language learning is a lifetime thing. We'll probably never be fluent, yeah, but we'll keep working on it. What would you relate like if you hear a Marek, where do you think the origins of that are? You probably know. It's a somatic language like Aramaic. So it's the Ethiopians, or at least the Amara anyway, in the north. They came from Yemen originally. Okay, yeah. So that sort of area is where the language came from, but it's an ancient, quite an ancient language. I just find it so fascinating to, like, even ancient history, it's like, you see, the Amara people came from Yemen, from Yemen, and that's what's influenced how that language is developed. And that's what influences how they speak today, like, it's so fascinating that ancient ancient history is just has those influences. Yeah, they don't see themselves as African. Oh, that's interesting. In particular they see them more, some people see themselves as the Jews of Africa, Ethiopia, that at least the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which is what Amara mostly are, Orthodox, they have a strong, rich religious history, if you like. So they believe that the Queen of Sheba came from Ethiopia, which I've been to some of her historical sites, so that seems pretty clear, but went and visited Solomon, pretty easy to believe that they had an affair because Solomon had, you know, a thousand wives, so a reasonable number of, reasonable chance that that happened. She felt pregnant and her son became the first king of Ethiopia, and so the kings of Ethiopia, which ended in 1974, traced their lineage back to Solomon. It's a strong Jewish connection with the Orthodox. That's really interesting. What did the king rule end in 1974? Communist takeover, so they shot the emperor. So it's quite a horrible story, actually. So the emperor in Halislasi, people may have heard of him, he's quite famous, he was emperor from the 1920s to '74, in the '50s and '60s he wanted to westernize Ethiopia, so he sent a lot of the kind of elite students, kind of like the Daniel people in the Bible, to America to get education, well, a lot of them came back as socialists or communists. And that backfired, and ultimately a combination of those students and the military took over the country with a communist coup in '74, which ended in '91, but yeah, they were communists for that period. Along with the fall of other communist regimes, or was it just on the side? No, I think it's independent of that. It's our love history, that's why I'm asking questions, so I apologise. That's boring anyone in the podcast. So let's move on to Ethiopia, going there long term. Why now, and why is it, what do you see this, it's the thing that you and Trudy want to do? Yeah, so why now, we've been talking to CMS for 20 years, off and on, starting the application process, and last time we started, Anna, our daughter was in U9, they said, "Oh, probably a bad time to go overseas, somewhere like Ethiopia when your daughter is in the middle of high school," and so they said, "Come back when she's finished high school," which is now at UNI, and so the timing was right in that sense for us. We'd develop relationships with Ethiopia and also our kids, Matt, Sarah and Anna, are really keen for us to go, so we had the support of them as well. Why is it strategic from our point of view, I guess, to go to Ethiopia? Over that 15 years, we've got to know the leaders of the north. The Protestant church in the north is very small, like about 0.2% of people are believers in the north, and the Bible College we're going to work at is one of only two full-time Bible colleges in an area of 25 million people. So about 60 students, there's more Bible colleges in Sydney than there is in the whole of northern Ethiopia, so it's strategic in that sense with the Bible colleges there, and also it's strategic because in, over that 15 years, we've been working with the indigenous leaders and believers, and there's a whole lot of opportunity, a whole lot of invitations from Muslim tribes and other people to hear the gospel. And Trudy and I can't do that ourselves, but what we can do is help equip the local believers to take on those invitations, so there's an opportunity there as well. And also, I guess, again, as part of the fledgling church, anyone who's done, I think you said you've done some certificate of theology, how many subjects have you known? Five. Five. So your five subjects ahead of most Ethiopian rural pastors in terms of their theological education. So you could probably be almost a bishop there with your theological background. You don't need Joel next week, you know what's happening. That's right. You've got tempted. I don't say that flippantly, it's just the actual situation that the pastors are not getting a theological education to lead their churches, and that's what they want. So again, by going and working in a Bible college, we can help them with that situation that they want to help improve. I mean, it's cool that they want to, it's just the resource to be able to do that isn't there. Yeah, that's right. Tim, any particular thoughts about why it would be important to have that theological training? Because as Anthony has already said a number of times, it's a great basis to have something. You've let you now lecture, you've studied at Bible college. Something that we said on Trudy's podcast earlier was just, and as I said before, the certificate of theology was like it's open up so many other things for me thinking about. In your experience, what, how is being studying at college learnt? I helped you understand the Bible more, and then maybe we can see like, that's one of the reasons why Anthony's going, right? So how does it help you in terms of understanding your faith and your relationship with God? Yeah, well, I mean, I think the picture, obviously, any skill you want to grow in, you want to sit at the field of master and learn how to do. It could be woodworking, it could be plumbing, it could be electricity, yeah. I mean, TAFE, the whole idea of an apprenticeship is you go and sit with people who know what they're doing. And it just happens to be my field is theology and children's ministry and philosophy and sociology. And so, you know, in this very heady and academic, I wouldn't know where to put the left handed screwdriver. But it's the, in terms of that, you, I want to learn those things. So, you know, you go to Bible college and you learn how to do those things. For the sake of then being in a role where you are then teaching. So, I mean, children is my main space, I suppose, you know, I think about children's ministry all the time. I want young people to know love and obey King Jesus. And so, if I want them to be able to learn from me, I need to be able to learn from those who are wiser than me and then reshape that. Sometimes it is directly relevant, as you know, I'm learning from other children's ministry minded people. I was on a Zoom call this morning with people from all around the world thinking about children's spirituality. We're doing, we've got a little book club together that came out of the conference. We were at in Chicago a couple of weeks ago. And so, there was only four of us on today because a few people are on Northern Hemisphere, some holidays. But, so some of that is we are all children's ministry people thinking about children's ministry. And sometimes it's about a particular skill like, you know, going to Bible college and learning from the experts in, you know, New Testament Greek exegesis or, you know, experts in John's gospel. Because if I know John's gospel to, you know, a very large extent, then when it comes to teaching children, you know, where to narrow in on this particular thing, you know, you can read the Bible and again, like going back to the start of the conversation, biblical theology is really key here. There's so much in John's gospel to know and to teach. How do I know what the right things are to focus on? How do you know what is the right emphasis of this particular chapter? Well, it comes from a deep understanding of the whole Bible and of this particular book. So yeah, it's essential that our leaders are learning and growing and seeing these things as those responsible for teaching the flock, growing other disciples of Jesus. And that's why when you go right back through Christian church history, often the minister of the church was the most educated person in a particular township, parish area, whatever it is, because they had to be. I mean, we, as Christianity, we have a book. So there is inherently reading bookish, that kind of cognitive learning that's engaged, as well as, you know, the really significant spiritual side. So people like the mystics and the monastics and those who are deeply in prayer life and those kinds of things, that's a different side of faith. And so, you know, when those two come together, helpfully, we get both the rich theological cognitive work with the rich spiritual side. And you've also got the practical help because, you know, the Bible, the gospel necessarily has practical outworkings in the way that you love God and love others. And so, again, like in, you know, Trudy and Anthony have said this on a number of occasions that I've talked to them one on one, or they presented it at things, but, you know, even, you know, the Muslim majority areas that you've worked in can see that there is social good that comes from, you know, Trudy's nursing and childhood health stuff. And for, they might not recognize that for Trudy, that's in outworking of the gospel. For Trudy, it's in outworking of the gospel. She loves Jesus, therefore she loves others, therefore she wants to help the children in this community thrive, therefore, you know, she will bring her health to that need. And so, you know, as Christianity holds those three together, the cognitive aspect, the spiritual relational aspect and the social good aspect, the active part of faith, you know, we want to express that out. And so, yeah, so I think learning has really helped in that. Helps diagonalize. Well, yeah. You diagonalize, pull them together, yeah, whatever it is. It's holistic. Yeah, it is. It's holistic faith. Yeah. And reveals the character of God, which is all encompassing, all incredibly holistic. Yeah. I just wanted to, like, delve in a little bit more in terms of what you're going to, in terms of what Ethiopia is there. You spoke a little bit about only 0.2% of the area that you're going to in northern Ethiopia is Protestant. Yes. The dominating two religions of Islam and Orthodox. And Orthodox. Orthodox. Yeah. I remember Trudy saying that that's very workspace, so the Orthodox. There isn't a lot of, what did she say? There was speaking to someone about the gospel, and she said, the thing, they said, the thing that we're missing is forgiveness and generosity. Generosity. So they don't, that doesn't really resonate around in their culture. Yeah. Yeah. What, what do you see? I mean, it's so important, like we're saying, of being able to set a biblical theology as a foundation. And that's, I know that's one of your passions and why you're really excited to go. And how, how are you going to, how are you going to do that in, in that kind of scenario? Yeah. Yeah. So background with the Ethiopian Orthodox, Ethiopian, Orthodox has a, a wide range of views, but generally they don't open the Bible because it's a holy book and you don't want to read it because if you read it, you might get it wrong. So best. Really? So every church will have a Bible in it, but it's wrapped up and put in the place of honor. Fascinating. Yeah. I know it's, so don't think Greek or Russian Orthodox. It's quite different. They, they split from the other Orthodox churches around 500 AD. So there's. Do you know why? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I do. So, so we, we believe in the Nicene Creed, we say it at church quite regularly. The Orthodox church, including the Ethiopian Orthodox church, signed that tick. We're all happy campers. We agree. Yes. We all agree. The council of Chalcedon, this was where we, the, the aim of that council was to talk about the dual nature of Christ. Okay. So Jesus comes when he's incarnated, comes as a man. So he's God and man when he goes to the cross. Everyone's on board with that at this stage. Then when he dies and goes to heaven, the Ethiopian Orthodox believe he's only God. And this creates a problem, not man. Not man. Okay. That's what they believe. That's a problem because for us, we, we're, we're humanity and there's God, but we have Jesus in between as our mediator between God and man because he's God and man. Yep. So it works really well. He continues in his humanity. And he continues in his humanity. That's right. Mm-hmm. Which is what the council of Chalcedon says. But with the Ethiopian Orthodox, Jesus is God only and therefore he is somewhat distant. Right. There's no way to easily come into contact with Jesus if he's God only. And so what they do to fill that gap is they pray to Mary, they pray to saints or they pray to angels. Okay. And so a combination of that theology with a heavy focus on works. So that theology has become very ritualized. Go to church, fast, regularly. They're very, very devout people, but they have no understanding of salvation by grace. So it's salvation by works. Yep. And also throw into that is a bit of syncretism. So what they've done is if you go to your priest with a problem, if he can't answer your problem, you go to a witch doctor. Mm-hmm. Again, sounds counterintuitive, but again, because they've lost some aspect of the supernatural side of Christianity and thus only a witch doctor can deal with that. Witch supernatural stuff is a really big thing in Ethiopia and as it is in lots of parts of Africa. But the solution for the Orthodox is to go to the witch doctor to help them through those kinds of issues. Interesting. Yeah. So therefore, what you're left within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is a church that doesn't know Jesus. Because of the growth of the Protestant Church in the south, it's kind of like two countries. The south, there's a lot of Protestant churches, but in the north, as I said before, 0.2%. Because of that, you're not allowed to mention Jesus because they see the Protestant Church as a, you know, a fake Christianity, an inferior breed of Christianity that's wrong because they have the true Christianity. Wow. And obviously, informed by that theological understanding that they have. Wow. Yeah. And all heavily influenced by, effectively by missionary monks that came during the crusades and had the same philosophy that the other Christians were against, that the Council of Chalcedon. So they kind of fled Europe and went to Ethiopia and reinforced the single nature of Jesus, which it's in fact in the title of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is a reference to the, in the full title, is a reference to the single nature of Christ. That's how big an issue it is for them. So then, as you said, that creates issues where, like, not understanding what the personal relationship with God. That's right. Jesus enables. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then therefore, there's those things that Trudy said was that there's a lack of understanding of generosity and forgiveness. They don't understand, probably one of the biggest differences between, say, Australia and Ethiopia and there's probably thousands of things, but because we've got a judo-Christian heritage, I think our society has a reasonable understanding of love, but the Ethiopian Orthodox don't understand love at all. And so when you show love, and this is where contextualization comes in because it's an area of persecution and poverty, you can't just go in and start evangelizing people because, and it's also an area of violence because you'll probably be driven off or perhaps killed. And so you need to contextualize the gospel. And the best way to do that is to, you know, Christians which will be known by their love. So if you love God and love others, actually that stands out significantly, which we didn't know. We were oblivious when we started going to Ethiopia, but that's the thing that particularly, really, all the tribes in the area we're working in, they notice significantly is when you love it stands out. I remember you and really relaying a story to us about a man who was a Christian. He was basically ostracized completely, and now has become a village elder because people trust him. Yes. Is that right? Yes, that's right. I mean, just in Lineness and the fact that so why is there this immediate distrust of him? And you talked about it a lot in terms of the orthodox vision of that, but then so then why has now he become a trusted member? So why is there a distrust and then it moves all the way to trust? Yes. So the distrust, so this man, he became an S.I.M. missionary, came to his village in 1974 and he had a 12-year-old son, and so he decided to teach 12-year-olds English using the Bible, and so he had a group of students. This man heard the gospel as part of that teaching, so ESL, great thing to do. And he believed the Bible and then continued to read the Bible the rest of his life because of what I said before about the Ethiopian Orthodox, not wanting you to read the Bible. He was persecuted and ostracized socially because he read the Bible. So that's why he was persecuted. As believers, more people became believers in this area, the Orthodox got to see love by the believers to them even though they were persecuting them. They still saw love and they started to ask, "Why do you love us?" And then that was then the opportunity to tell them the gospel and the great news about Jesus. So over time, what we expect working with church planting in Ethiopia slowly, one Christian here, one Christian there, and that's effectively what happened, but what we didn't expect is that as the believers modeled love, the social culture changed dramatically because they'd not seen love modeled before, and ultimately that led to this man then becoming an elder when eventually they went, "Well, we don't want to persecute these people anymore because they're actually on our side," and they recognized his integrity and honesty as a Christian and therefore wanted him to make the leadership decisions for the community. It sounded very similar to what you read about the very early church, the Romans society, the Christians were just there just doing everything. They loved not just each other, but they loved their pagan neighbors in such a way that the pagans could not make sense of this and didn't know what to do, but thought, "Exactly right," but I actually prefer this to the way that Romans society tells us to distrust or to harm each other. There's a famous line I can't remember any of the particular names and dates or details, but essentially this Roman pagan high up senator, someone says, "We've got to do something about these Christians. They love not only themselves, but us as well," and this idea that we don't even love our own citizens, and yet they do, and the persecuted minority stands out, and God used that, I don't know what you say, servant-heartedness, that generosity, that living out the fruits of the Spirit to actually radically change the Roman Empire and from there the world. That's right, that's right. I think it's harder to do that in the Shire because it doesn't stand out quite as dramatically, but I think when I look at Solis as a growing church, I see we talk about Jesus' changes everything, and I think that's the foundation, the starting point that Solis is doing in spades, that's great, but the second thing then added to that is the focus on relationship and relationship is where you show love, and that's where we talked about theological education and Trudy and I are going to be missionaries, but really God has put every one of us in a situation where we have unique relationships. You have your family and friends and your work situation or your school or whatever, and you have an opportunity to be loving towards those people that God has designed for you to mingle with or whatever to be with, and so that's effectively, you know, an opportunity, so it's just for us it's led to something overseas in theological education, but really the opportunities for all of us to show that we love God and love others and for people to then ask questions about that. That story you shared about the man who became a Christian back in the 70s and then was ostracised for a long time, and then became a village elder and then it's starting to impact the community. Is that one of those stories like that or is that what's really one of the driving motivations behind you going one year to go a long term and see that change? Yes, certainly, certainly helps. If you go through our mission model, although it's not quite as extreme as Jonah being, you know, I hate these people, I'm not going to do this and God forces him to do it, and it's a great success, but then he's really angry. Our model is not that, our model certainly hasn't been without its flaws or well planned out. It just seems that God is creating opportunities and we're going through that door to see what happens, and then he's building on that, but is it planned, is it something we've come up with? No, other than that original question I said earlier is to ask that question, "How do you best serve God with what you have?" And that can be anything. When we first, the first time we went to Ethiopia as a family, we stayed for 10 weeks. Trudy and I both came back and said the number one skill an evangelist needs here is hairdressing. And so it's nothing to do with what Tim and I have been talking about theological education, which is important, but as an evangelist, a really important skill was hairdressing because etoping women are really vain. And so if you become a hairdresser, it's a captive audience to talk to for a long time. And there was a lot of prostitutes in that town as well who also like to get their head done. So there was a golden opportunity as a hairdresser to be an evangelist. So what I'm saying in a roundabout way is serving God is not only about theological education and serving in that way, it's really about using the gifts that God has given you. For me and for Tim, it's in that area, but it could be hairdressing or plumbing or whatever, but it's using your gifts to serve God. Have you done some hairdressing now in the CMS training? I certainly wouldn't, I think I'd go bankrupt day one. I think it's interesting that the way you say it, you're not necessarily following an intentional plan that you have had, but you've just been faithful in the next steps and it just reminds me two things. Firstly, that Ephesians 210, to do the good works, prepare an advance for you to walk in. God knows what he's doing with you guys. He's known for the last 20 years, what he wanted you guys to do in Ethiopia, but you haven't known the plan in advance and it hasn't been important for you to just do that step by step and then that takes me back to Abraham and then the whole idea that God just said to Abraham, "Hey, how about you leave this place and go where I'll follow?" And Abraham goes, "Okay." Not knowing where that was going, he didn't even know where God was going to say stop. He just said, "Okay, well, I trust you enough to just go and I just do that some great encouragement that you and Trudian and the whole family who have been caught up with that have been saying, "Yeah, okay, well, I'll do the next faithful thing, the next faithful step in front of me." And this is where we've got two at the moment in the story. And I think it's been helpful in a lot of situations to be ignorant because I think if we had have known, we may not have done the things that it seems like God wanted us to do. God's graciousness. He's not letting you know, not revealing certain things to us at different times has been really helpful. Yeah. And just in terms of talking about, again, what you're going into, what is the background? There's a bit of civil unrest at the moment. What is the genesis of that or what is that over? Yeah, it's, so in 2020, 2021, there was the third civil war in my lifetime in Ethiopia where the previous people who were in the government tried to take the government back and that the fighting was with, it's like a state called Tigray, which is in the far north near the Eritrean border with Ethiopia. So Tigray used to run the country after the communists, we talked about that before, Tigrinians around the country, they lost power and then they wanted it back. So they basically, basically, they effectively marched on the capital. So it's, so they headed south towards the capital. There was a lot of fighting the government with the Amara because to get from Tigray to the capital, you have to go right through Amara and also the Afa fought against Tigray and they won. However, after that sets 2020, 2021, after that, the Oromo, which is the biggest tribe and a Muslim tribe, basically then had power, military power in the country. And they've felt pressure on their land as the population grows, the land size doesn't increase so that creates problems and they've looked to essentially start to fight the Amara, which is the next tribe north of them. And so although the Amara were fighting with the government in the Civil War, it's now the government run militarily by the Oromo who are now fighting the Amara and basically stealing their land and destroying their infrastructure to destabilize them, to grab their lands. So it's kind of rooted in tribal, tribalism, yes, yes. So it's quite complicated. There's a whole lot more, I could say. But that's a simple example. But can you tell me, what do you feel, how do you feel about that going into that? Yeah, well, at the moment, we can only go to the capital. So if you look on DFA Australia's DFAT site, Ethiopia is basically red, which means don't go, or orange, which means probably don't go, and except for the capital, Addis, which is yellow. That's Addis Ababa. Addis Ababa. Yeah. Addis Ababa. Addis Ababa. Yeah. And so we can go there, which was our plan anyway, to go there and do some language and culture learning for nine to 12 months. So our hope is that over that time, the fighting will settle down and we'll be able to go to the north to Bahidah, which is a lovely town on a big lake. But at the moment, we can't leave the capital. We can't go anywhere else in Ethiopia other than Addis. Because of the safety reasons, right? Yes. But you said that the plan, when you first go over to spend at least a year in Addis, to learn language, and so you're able to communicate a bit more effectively. Yes. Yes. Right. Start that journey. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so if you are coming going in for the year, now, and I'm sure that you are very sensitive to this, but what did you do differently? Because if you just came in hot and then just, as you said, you know, you need to be a good idea is to be a headdresser, or, you know, the relational aspect is really important. Yes. What are you doing in terms of, because I would assume you're not going to go and they go, "I'm the leader, and this is what I'm going to sort out," and all that kind of thing, because that would be rather disrespectful. Yes. How would you, how are you in treaty planning to approach that and what plans are in place to do that? Yeah. Yeah. So one of the reasons why we chose CMS as a mission agency to go with is their model is to work under the indigenous leadership, and that's what we wanted to do. So that was a big tick for us. So we're going to be working under the indigenous leadership. So our goals are effectively going to be their goals. So we will work together to help them achieve their goals. And then, main goal is like us to see a world that knows Jesus, but more specifically is to produce rural pastors for their churches. To raise up. To raise up and equip leaders to do that. So we obviously know their community a lot better than yourself. Yes. So our goal is not to be evangelists. It doesn't mean we may not ever have conversations with people, but we have to cross that cultural divide to do that. So we probably can't do that well, and certainly nowhere near as well as the Ethiopian locals. So we're looking to equip them. An interesting thing though is Ethiopian youth see Western education as the way out of poverty. And there's some truth in that. But the problem is do they learn best orally in a culture, which is not the way Western education mostly teaches, although it is probably heading more towards that away from chalk and talk towards more, you know, oral based things or adult learning, I guess. And so, but the Ethiopians see oral learning as archaic, the Ethiopian youth. And so that creates attention because I can go into the Bible College and teach like you would, you know, particularly 10, 20 years ago as a lecturer and they would really value that. But is that going to commit that style, going to communicate back in a rural village when they go back to work in a local church? My suspicion is no. And so you've got this quandary of they want to be taught in a Western way. But is that really the best way for them to learn to be able to contextualize the gospel in a rural Ethiopian village? So I've right. So there's a desire to go, we need to be, we want to be more educated. Definitely. So it's a strong desire. But then they see it as the, you know, textbook read and write chalk and talk, as you said, to actually learn. But then however, is that the best way for them to go back to their communities and teach it. Part of teaching in a Bible College or anywhere really is making sure that your teaching is contextualized. Otherwise, you're just teaching something that they're not going to be able to teach. Or they will teach and it's not going to be effective because so there needs to be this way of working out how is your teaching them going to be transformative for the people they're going to be teaching. So that's something I'm going to have to learn a lot about because I've not really lived in a rural village in Ethiopia. I suppose it's probably my last question, I've probably come with more though. What have you seen change? You've been going, you said you've been 12 times in the last 15 years. What do you think's changed since the first time until maybe the last time you went? What have you, what have you seen like God do in that, in those, that period of time? Yeah, I think in the, particularly in the community that we've worked in, we've seen a dramatic social change. So the believers have modelled love, loving God and loving others. And the community that we first went into, I went, when I was invited, Pastor Faroo, a former leader of the Northern Church, he was driving me to the airport, it's a two day drive. He said, on the way, he said, "Do you mind if we stop in at my village, my home village?" And I said, "No, I've never been to a village before, love to go, stayed the night there, 24 hours in this rural village, no one spoke English except for him." And he was off seeing friends and family. So it was quite a challenging time. What I found out later is that I was the first foreigner in living memory to be in that village. So, again, this is what I say that ignorance is really important because they are very violent people. And I was allowed in there because I was with Faroo, whose name means one to be feared above all others. So that gives you an indication of the culture of Ethiopia, of Amara culture in Ethiopia. So that led to opportunities, like, so I went as a tourist and completely naive, but God used that. So I didn't have a plan and Trudy then found out and so she was jealous, so I want a village experience because you've had one, and so she went. So when I mentioned Jonah earlier, it was slightly tongue in cheek, but there's a little bit of, you know, our mission model was ignorance, naivety, and jealousy, but God used that. And as we modeled loving God and loving others, a few people came to Christ and that grew and some other Ethiopians came and started working in the area and modeling God and loving others. And slowly that changed. And that was great and we were hoping that slowly people would become Christian, but what we didn't expect is the cultural change to be as dramatic as it was when the Ethiopian Orthodox saw people loving God and loving others because they are very family orientated, but very much a vengeance culture. So Joel, you kill my sister, I'm going to kill your brother and it just creates blood feuds. But when they saw love modeled, we saw reconciliation of 20 year blood feuds. I saw this man, he had his AK-47 and he put his AK-47 at the feet of another man. And I'm kind of asking, like, this is all in a marx, I don't know what's going on. Like what happened there? It seemed significant. Well, they've just ended the blood feud. And so as they saw love modeled, they realized that actually love is a better way to live. They didn't all become Christian, are believers like we would see it, but they changed socially. And then that love helped them to then rather than working together as a family, they started working together as a community and using their own resources were able to then improve the problems that they faced as a community through love and loving each other and that then led to social change in the area. Yeah, it's interesting how you're saying that, I mean, it's so lovely to hear that. It's awesome to see that God's working that way. But something Tim you talked about before is kind of like some theories are, if you see economic change, then you'll see people growing more or flourishing more. But it's interesting to see that we started here with love and the social change is what's creating that. Yeah, this is what I didn't expect, I didn't expect this at all. So hence, it's all on God and the Holy Spirit because Trudy and I had no plans or plotting and scheming to achieve this, we just tried to live a life showing loving God and loving others in the community we were in which was at the time a rural village. So it's an yeah, an outworking of the gospel that you weren't expecting. No, we didn't expect it. We hoped maybe one or two people might come to Christ and that would be an awesome outcome. But actually God had bigger plans and he was preparing. But in my mind, it also creates an environment where becoming a Christian is more acceptable as well. And that's what happened. Yeah. It meant that the believers could open a church. So there was 50 believers in this village, but 3,000 people attended the opening because they all felt loved then for these 50 believers. They now can freely evangelize and they're not persecuted anymore. In the area they're in. If they leave and go to other areas, it's all bets are off, but in this district, that's what happened. And so the Orthodox came in support of this church that opened and Muslim people came in support of the church that opened, which is both unheard of. If you tell other Ethiopians and they go, "No, that didn't happen." Okay, fair enough. It's just so radically out of the ordinary, which shows that God is behind it. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Before we move on, just talk about how people can support you, Anthony. Tim, did you have any final thoughts or questions for Anthony that we haven't covered because I felt like we left you out there a little bit? Oh no, that's okay. I'm fascinated by listening. Yeah, it's all mine. That's why I came running to ask questions. Yeah. I think it's lovely to see both the, I suppose the salvation change of people, people becoming Christians, but also that the social change, which is incomplete going all the way back to Biblical critical theory, is exactly what you would expect. Yeah. God has set up creation in particular way. That's why I need to read the book because that's what you mean. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. We see social change when the gospel is expressed and brought into and lived out because that's how God has made the world to be. And we pray in the Lord's prayer, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We want to see the flourishing of the earth in according to God's kingdom principles and kingdom ethics and there's not a one for one correlation between salvation and God's goodness flowing. And Jesus says this himself, the rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous. And yet God chooses to use the church and he chooses to use Christians in order to bring flourishing to the world, which includes those fruits of the spirit and the other kinds of things. And so, yes, we absolutely want unsafe people who are outside the kingdom to become Christians and inside the kingdom like, you know, their eternity is at stake. So that is a driver of evangelical missions and always has been and we want to continue to pray for Ethiopia and pray for those communities so that they will see life to death transformations. And we can also, alongside that, celebrate just the social good, the pro-social good that happens in these communities because Christians are living out the gospel and that even the Muslims flourish because of peace, you know, that resonates to this land. And again, you know, to turn it full cycle, we want them to recognise this is interesting. You know, peace didn't flourish when we lived according to Ethiopian orthodoxy or Islamic whatever. You know, it is flourishing more under this evangelical Protestant Jesus that there's something attractive there. There's something beautiful there and the fragrance of life that that, you know, emanates out into the community. So, you know, it's this cyclical thing where they work hand in hand together. I think it's really beautiful. And the fact that you are seeing that first hand is like joy for you and for us. It's amazing experience. Yeah. That's right. That's right. It's really encouraging. I think just listening to Trudy this morning and yourself just but also the faithfulness that you're approaching it with is really cool as well as you like, God's going to take care of it. And he'll just put us in the positions that we need to be putting for his kingdom. So in respect to that, how do we help people able to support you if they listen to this and they're keen on giving you support, like what kind of support can they give and how can they do it? Yeah. Definitely the number one thing is prayer support. I read a biography of a missionary to China and just after World War One and his name is James Fraser and he said his view of prayer, again, this is after World War One. So he used a military analogy, but he said that with prayer, the people praying are the people in the trenches doing the fighting, fighting against the devil through their prayers, whereas him as the missionary, he's like the intelligence officer, giving the information for the people to pray about. And so I really like that analogy because it really underlines the value of prayer and how important it is. And sometimes I know I can be a bit flippant about my prayers and not really think to do it. So number one, we value your prayers. To be able to pray more effectively, I guess, for us with more information, you could sign up to our prayer newsletter, which we will endeavor to write monthly. I have no promises, but I hope we will. If you just go onto a search engine and type in CMS and LYARD, you'll come to a link and you can sign up for our newsletter. I'll check that in the show notes as well. Okay. Awesome. So that would be great. Sol is also financially supporting us, which is awesome. We still need some more individual financial support, which would be great, but really the main thing is prayer support. And I think Trudi might have mentioned before or so, we're going to leave our family, two of our kids and our grandkids and our daughter-in-law go to Sol is, so we'd love you guys to look after them while we're gone and really love to keep in contact because it is a sacrifice for us to move away. It's our choice. No one's making us do this, but we would really value to keep in contact with us because when we just value interaction with people, especially when you're in a place we're not totally used to living in. Are you from there before? That's right. It's going to be new being full-time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And there's no end date. Is that right? No end date. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I'm 56 Trudi's younger and we see this kind of like our last career. We don't know how long it's going to go for, we're just going to give it a go, and having said that with CMS we aim to be back at least every two years or some months, four to five months every two years, but also we have a month's annual leave every year so we could come back almost annually. We don't know how that's going to play out. Okay. Well, I mean, it's been a pleasure. I mean, on the podcast. Thank you. It's been really fun. It's been really cool to hear just your passion, first of all, for biblical theology, obviously, but also for other people to know it and also, but most of all, people to know the gospel and know what Jesus can do. And to hear about things about it's making those real social changes, like that organic social change is just amazing to hear. So I really love hearing that. So thank you for sharing all the stories and knowledge and your knowledge as well, which has been awesome. Tim, of course. Thank you as always. Always, always love having you on the podcast. If you do have any questions or you want to send a question or anything, you can email me at jol@chocolsorba.com.au and we will send it on or we'll answer it on the podcast. We'll make it happen. Having said that, it's been lovely. Thank you very much for everyone listening and watching. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for your time. No worries at all. And we always like to finish with the one way. So let's see that. One way. One way. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC]
