The Pink Smoke podcast
Ep. 145 Peter Pan
Host Martin Kessler welcomes film writer and curator Vanya Garraway to discuss the various film versions of J. M. Barrie's oft-adapted Peter Pan, from the 1924 silent film to last year's Peter Pan & Wendy. Giving their personal assessment of each movie, they dig into the history of the free-spirited boy who refuses to grow up, what makes it such an enduring tale and the sadness inherent in this story of pirates and fairies and a ticking crocodile.
Along the way, Kessler and Garraway discuss which Captain Hooks are too sexy, why a Peter Pan story needs a Wendy and yes, they dig into the Tiger Lily issue. Tying Barrie's original work to the thematic concept of what nostalgia really means, they break down the highs and lows of each film adaptation to determine the value of a great story told over & over again.
Vanya Garraway on Twitter: @nostalgiaphile @PaidInSweat
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Intro music: Unleash the Bastards / “Tea for Two” Outro music: Marcus Pinn / “Vegas"
- Duration:
- 1h 50m
- Broadcast on:
- 02 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
(upbeat music) - Hello, you're listening to the Think Smoke podcast and oh, the cleverness of me, Martin Kessler. But of course, I'm not so cleverness to be able to do this all by myself. So I'm joined by my very own Pixie Devil, film writer and curator, Vanya Garaway. Hi, Vanya, how are you? - Hi, I'm fine, how are you? - Good, thank you. And today we're gonna be talking about Peter Pan on film. So I was just wondering what your introduction was to Peter Pan on film since it's been adapted so many times. It's like one of the most beloved children's stories of the last century and a bit. Yeah, just what was your introduction? - Probably just watching like the wonderful world of Disney. That was probably where I first saw Peter Pan or maybe he might have even been in some books that were probably still Disney related. And I don't think I knew that when I was a kid that Peter Pan existed outside of Disney. I think I only knew that iteration of it. It wasn't until I got a little bit older that I realized, okay, it's a play, it's a book. And I knew that stuff. And then Hook, I watched Hook like everybody else. When that came out and Spielberg basically is the first director I actually ever knew as like a director, like I knew his name and knew that his job. And so, yeah, see watching Hook, I was like, okay, Peter Pan, and obviously that tells you a lot of information about, you know, oh, it's a play 'cause that's how it starts. And oh, it's a book, right? And so I had that and then all of a sudden it's become something else. So those were probably my initial interactions. And that wasn't until I was probably in my 20s that I read the book, the actual book, the actual novel. And I think I've seen it on stage maybe once when I was younger. And yeah, that's about it. That's my history with Peter Pan. - That's perfect. - Yeah, I think for me Hook was the big introduction also. I might've been aware of it just because of Disney products all over the place. You know, like I definitely recognized the Disney version of Tinkerbell, which it's funny that you talk about how you weren't necessarily aware that there was Peter Pan outside of Disney. I think that was delivered on Disney's part. Like they tried to legally go after anyone whose version was too similar. So like, I know there was an animated series where they were saying like, oh, you can't depict Tinkerbell as a person. Tinkerbell's a lie. We own the copyright on Tinkerbell as like a little person. And they said, that's not true. If you can actually read the book. Like I think there's been a little bit of that in the history of the Disney version. But like, I love the Disney version of Tinkerbell, but I was never super wild about the Disney animated version. Like it was never one of my favorites. Hook, I watched about like a thousand times as a kid though. I think that was pretty normal. - Yeah. - And it was funny to me when I did eventually read the book, what I expected to come from it wasn't necessarily in the book. Like I remember a lot of the lines that Tinkerbell has in the film book. I was like, if less is more, there's no one to me, Peter Pan. I'm like, that's got to come from the book, right? And it's not. - It's just true. - Yeah, Carrie for sure, yeah, wrote that. I happen to know that too. And it's one of the best lines in the entire movie. That line is incredible. Like it really stands out. It's like, if lines are going to come at you, like visually, almost in a film, that's one of the lines that does it in that film, you know, or it just steps out of it where you're like, oh, you know, you can feel it when she says it. She delivers it so perfectly too. That whole, her whole intro there is quite good. - I always really like Julia Roberts' Tinkerbell. And I think like a big part of that is just how the characters are written and her presence in the film. And it was sort of funny to learn about some of the behind the scenes drama between her and Spielberg and her taking off and then Spielberg saying, oh, he'd never worked with her again and all that stuff. And when I heard Spielberg say like, oh, we were like this close to replacing her with Michelle Pfeiffer. - I'm not gonna lie, like a part of me was like, we could have had it all. (laughing) I love Julia Roberts, but gosh, you kind of wanna see Michelle Pfeiffer's Tinkerbell now. (laughing) - It would have been a very different kind of Tinkerbell. Maybe it might have been more true to how Tinkerbell, people had perceived her before Julia Roberts because she's sassy and a little bit, you know, the fairies in the book, you know, they're kind of sexualized. And so maybe she would have been like, not to say that Julia Roberts is not sexy, but I don't think she played Tinkerbell sexy, I feel like it's really hard for Michelle if I were not to play sexy. - Sure. (laughing) - And she doesn't even like. And so maybe it would have been more true to that idea of the fairies. To me, they're very sexualized in the book. So maybe that would have been more authentic if we're talking about the book, but I mean, Hook is very, is its own thing and it's very, it's quite innocent and it doesn't have that like edge to it. So I think Julia Roberts is probably the perfect person for that story. - I think so. And like, I wish she plays it as sort of a tomboy and she's just, you know, she has a crush on Peter Pan, but it's like a very kind of childlike crush. And I was thinking about like what her personality is because it really, she's one of the most beloved characters in children's literature, children's pop culture. And there are pretty different takes on Tinker Bell, even though famously in the original play version, she was just a reflected light. Like the Peter Pan and Wendy, the recent one, the David Lowry version. I actually really, really liked that version, but I was thinking like Yara Shahidi, she's got like a great kind of silent movie sort of reaction to things. So I was sort of thinking, for me it was like a little bit too bad that like, I think they wanted to downplay her being kind of sassy and jealous in that version because it's like, oh wait, what's Tinker Bell's personality? And this, I guess she's just kind of there to react to things. But, you know, like I like that version a lot, but I think like some of the stuff that drags it down a little bit for me was, you can tell like maybe a little bit of the corporate meddling or the like focus group kind of thinking of like, we can't have Tinker Bell try to get Wendy murdered in this version. (laughing) - I love it actually, she tries to do that. - But she puts a hit out on Wendy, she put the hit out on her, is something that it stands out. But I think that it's kind of does a disservice to the identity of fairies, you know? - Yes. - Because the thing about fairies that maybe people don't know, now we, me and you are experts in Peter Pan. (laughing) Is that the fairies can only hold two kinds of emotions because they're so tiny that they can only be like, basically in love, euphoric like happy or like angry (laughing) and you know, and a little like nasty and jealous, which I kind of love about the fairies, but they can only have those two, it's not complex, it's very explosive, and they're powerful in their own way. And I love that idea. And so I kind of didn't, I even though I did like her Tinker Bell, and it's not about her, it's how the, how it's written. She's very sweet. I just feel like I wanted her to be a little bit edgier like that. - Me too, like me, a little meaner. - I feel like she played it really well, if the part was written up to be the way that Tinker Bell has been in the past. - I think one version that really kind of drove that home was the 2003 version with Ludovine Segnier. - She's pretty nasty, she's pretty nasty. - She's pretty nasty, but you still love her, like, she, I mean, of course, like the part where Tinker Bell's dying and they try to get the whole audience chanting, like I believe in fairies, yes, I do, yes, I do. It's like a callback to the play where you would get the audience clapping and engaged and, you know, you don't want your belt to die, so you want to get in on this. - Yeah, I didn't, yeah, so, in David Lowery's, Peter Panewany, yeah, that Tinker Bell, I just don't think she was given that chance, but she was kind of given the chance to be, I have a friendship with Wendy that was separate from Peter, and I can appreciate that, but I still think you could have had like the edge of your one lead up to that and have like, and have a transition for her where they became friends, you could still do that with the, and still incorporate some of the other parts I've been talking about, of being a fairy. And, you know, like as you saw in Hook, when we were talking about Hook is when Tinker Bell becomes big in that, for the moment that she's big in it, she does talk about that, like, finally she's big enough to have the emotions that she wants to have and be able to express herself in a more complex way than she ever would have been able to as a fairy, basically, I'm paraphrasing, but she expresses that, and I love that. I love that her greatest wish is to become big and then finally she can have those feelings. That's really magical. - Yeah, she's big, she's big enough to let go of him. I know. - Yes, exactly. Oh my God, sorry, but it's true because you can never have those complex emotions. And then you really get to see how much she is in love with him because she also is able to let him go and cares about him on a deeper level. Then you don't really, you can't really see that with the Larry one because she's just kind of sweet the entire time. - Yeah, it's almost as if characters can have arcs and things like that. Yeah, no, I completely agree. You know, there is that sort of modern thinking of, oh, we don't want to have characters in a children's film having too much conflict or having negative emotions. But I don't know, I think it's sort of important to see that journey. And I think like a lot of kids can relate to that idea of fairies having one or two big emotions at a time. I think like as you become more of an adult, that's when you start to have more nuanced and more complex kind of emotional. - Yeah. - States, so yeah. - It's kind of thematically, it's kind of important to the story. And in the other iterations of Tinkerbell, she kind of has to learn that, oh, I'm doing this thing and it's hurting people or it's getting in the way. Like she, when she hurts Wendy or the books I hid out on her and it's not successful. And it backfires, you know, she has to kind of realize, okay, I went too far, you know? - And then she does something extremely selfless by drinking the poison and basically being ready to die to save Peter Pan and... - So we don't get that, you know, as much in the Lowry one. I love when you're talking about the clapping and bringing the Tinkerbell back. I liked the 2003 version, but nothing compares to that to the original, the original 1920s one, because... - Yeah, I think it kind of needs that wall break to speak directly to the audience to really make it feel magical and to, you know, it's like the moment it's so dire and he has to speak to the audience, like, please, like don't let Tinkerbell die and it's really moving. And I think like, it was interesting for me to read that J.M. Barry, who of course wrote Peter Pan, didn't like the silent film version because he thought like, oh, it's too much like the stage play, which admittedly like parts of it are, like I think like the first third of the silent version where it's all kind of in the darling's home, it feels like Barry Stagey and like pretty creaky for film of that time period. Like, you know, it feels like a decade earlier kind of a movie, but I think like once you get to Neverland and the creativity starts coming out, I really like the film quite a bit actually. - I think, yeah, just to go back to the, I just, when I watched it and she, and I say she to Peter Pan, because... (laughing) - Eddie Brunson is Peter Pan, yeah. - Yes, 'cause often Peter Pan is played by a woman. So, but when Peter breaks the fourth wall, I clapped at the, like what I was watching on my TV. I was like, I clapped. - No, could you not? - I was really moved, like I sold it through the screen. But I think there's a cheat here. The cheat is, is that we watched, we grew up with Hook. And I feel like because we grew up with Hook, we've watched that play version in Hook. So many times. And we feel that emotion, you know, Spielberg's a master at that, and making you feel that kind of, smolty, like that emotion. And especially as your kid, you're growing up with it, you're watching it over and over. And so when we go back and watch the '20s one, first of all, it's his play. So he's gonna criticize it and do that. (laughing) Jamberry, but I think because of that, we feel that in nostalgia, because when I was watching the nursery stuff in the '20s one, I felt really like special. Like I love silent films, so I'm a sucker. But I felt really special being able to experience it. Like I felt like, oh, this is like, when they're watching the play in, you know, in Hook, like I felt like, oh, it's is my opportunity to have that kind of emotion and be able to clap while it is longer and it's more direct to me. And so maybe that's the, you kind of have to grow up and be watching Hook for a long time. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, it's like, it's just like the play, but it doesn't feel, it doesn't, I don't feel like it's, I feel like an attitude. - I'm just saying a bad thing. Yeah, no, I agree. And it's interesting too, just to get a snapshot of how the play would have felt back then. I think like, even though it's silent, you do kind of get that feeling of what it would have been like to be a person in the audience, watching the play in early 20th century, I think even the fact that it's Betty Bronson, it's a woman playing Peter Pan, which I've seen like there's film versions of the play that have been released, but they're not really movies. Like it's interesting to see what it's like with a woman playing Peter Pan. I guess like the rationale initially was that, hey, child acting is kind of messed up when we have child labor laws. Let's get ahead and also play this role. And I mean, you still see a lot of that, like, you know, you have animated characters, boys who were voiced by women, like Bart Simpson or Bobby Hill, like that's pretty common. But like also, I don't know if you found this, but I thought like there are these sort of very gentle kind of sapphic overtones that I think like people, when they talk about the play, you sort of try to imagine that. And like, I'm not sure, like I've seen the film version of like the Broadway play, which I didn't get that from at all, but like this, I definitely picked up on that. - Yes, it is. - Like with a kiss and stuff like that, it's, yeah. - Yeah, in the 20s version, I could not stop thinking about them as, that's why I said she, I think, 'cause like I could not stop thinking about them. It kind of in a relationship as women together. Like it's, that's also part of it, like why I love it too. I just, I just thought it was like really nice. But also to what you're saying, not only child labor laws, but just that the stature of a woman would be smaller, to like swing her, have an adult that's petite that can have gravitas, you know, on stage. And also be able to have intimate moments with essentially another child that's a girl, you know, to have two women be able to do that on stage, you know, would probably be better, easier, you know, to do that. And so I'm also thinking about finding Neverland, Kelly McDonald, I think she plays. Peter Pan on a, in the stage version inside, Finding Neverland, and she's so good. She's really good, yeah. And when she gets to finally, when like first, the stage version in Finding Neverland is so beautiful, that first moment where she flies for the first time, when she takes off from the ground, just does a little push-off, just doesn't it, to set an example, 'cause she's trying to teach them how to fly. And she does that push-off and they cut to that kid like, oh, like here in awe. And it's perfect, it's a perfect edit. But I got emotional, I got choked up, like I had, you know, a lump in my throat when she takes off for that first time. And then I think it's, I wanna say, John asks her to do, asks Peter to do it again, but slower, and so she comes down really delicately. And then when she performs in her house in the Lou Ellen Davis house for Kate Winslet's character, it's so beautiful. Like her monologues and that are like really delicate and close up and she just, she looks gorgeous. Her costuming is wonderful. She carries it really beautifully. I don't know, I just, I love how women play. I forgot to mention like when I was a kid I also seen Sandy Duncan played Peter Pan too. And I remember I used to watch her on like Hogan's family. And then also she was, to me, she was Peter Pan. Like that was in my head, you know? - I know recently there was like a live catchable filmed version, gosh, with Marty from Girls, Alice in Williams playing Peter Pan. And I think Christopher Walken is Captain Hook. - You saw that? - That's fascinating. I did think to myself, I really wished that there's abduction in Toronto. Like I, you know, I feel like that would be a great Christmas. - Yeah. - Sometimes you do, I think it's like Soul Pepper they're doing Alice in Wonderland right now. And I feel like Peter Pan would be a great, like kind of holiday. Like I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna look out for a production. I really want that to happen now. - I've seen a couple of really good filmed versions. Like one I really, really loved that was more recent was from the old Vic. They had a version with like a lot of unconventional casting. Like Peter Pan is this Dr. Houl looking guy in Tricker Bell's this chubby little van and Captain Hook is, instead of like the actor playing the father, it's the actress playing the darling mother playing Captain Hook and stuff like that. - Oh, yeah. - They're all sorts of really creative things that like the mermaids are people in swimsuits with like metal sheets and it has kind of this like post-apocalyptic kind of vibe. And there are all these like really great creative touches and not being shy about the fact that it is a play like you have stage hands in pajamas or pirate outfits like running back and forth. And instead of a pixie dust, it's I think pixie string, they call it, which are just the cables that it's attached to themselves. I thought like, oh, this is so good. And it's such a good play version. It's not trying to like, I think sometimes when you see like the Broadway versions, it's so polished that you lose some of that charm of it being a play. So I really like the old Vic version if people can find that it's a lot of fun. - I think what I learned from watching so many iterations is I think I ended with, I actually ended with finding "Lemmerlin", my logic being that if I didn't get to it and if I didn't get to it, like I've seen everything else. It was re-watch for me. But I think what I majorly learned from that was that it's all about imagination, right? So that's what's part of the magic of Peter Pan is the idea that they're using their imagination in the story. So if a stage play is overly polished, then you're kind of taking away some of that interaction that the audience gets to have where their projection, their imagination. 'Cause I'm finding "Lemmerlin" when she covers someone's pixie does, she doesn't actually have anything. She just rubs her hands together and then blows on her hands onto them. And you imagine, okay, that's the pixie. And it's so small, maybe, that you can't actually see it, you know? - I completely agree. I think that's kind of true of a lot of plays where you have to use your imagination to fill in certain gaps to say like, I'm not just watching people on the stage, I'm watching this story. And I think it lends itself really well to that. So sometimes when you overproduce it or over polish it, I think you do kind of lose that charm of like kids playing make believe. I think you're absolutely right. Although I will say like finding Neverland, it does gloss over like a lot of the true story. And I don't even mind like some of the time compression stuff, but like God, the true story of Jay and Barry and the Llewell and Davis boys is like really sad. It's like heart crushingly sad if you go through like the whole thing. Like there's the mini-series Lost Boys with Ian Holm that was written by Andrew Birkenholst that did the Lost Boys book. It's like methodically for 260 minutes just going through this crushing sadness. Finding Neverland like it's got a lot of bittersweet touches to it, but the true story is just like sad for a lot of things. - So I feel like it's not really like it's a biopic, but I feel like it's kind of just still a Peter Pan. - It is, yeah, I mean, like you were saying, I think the best part of the movie is one, they're putting on the stage production of Peter Pan and there's been all this buildup of trying to find the inspiration for that. And then when you finally see it and the audience reaction and like seeing old people in the audience who are kind of jaded, looking over and seeing the kids enjoying it and that makes them enjoy it. I think like that whole part of the film is really fantastic. I do think it's a crime that you have Toby Jones in your movie and he's not playing J.M. Berry. (laughing) - He's like, "You mean you would have been perfect." - He's like a small, statored man. He was a little man, right? - J.M. Berry, he was perfect. - Yeah, he was like five foot or four foot ten. He was quite small. I know there's a bunch of speculation that it might've been like what the cause of that might've been but you know, like you read some of his writing from when he was in college and it's like, "Oh, if only I was tall, women would like me." And stuff like, you know, it's like a lot of that kind of shy, feeling rejected kind of, you know, you don't cast a choice. - Johnny Depp is like arguable, arguably like a peak in Johnny Depp's attractiveness. We're gonna just objectify him. - I think just coming off the parts of the Caribbean and then yeah, I think that was kind of his peak at that time, so. - Well, because he was so beautiful and he, listen, we're talking about a specific time of Johnny Depp. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not like washed up average, Johnny Depp. - Yeah, and we're not trying to be like, yeah, awesome. But I feel like we're at that time, if we're gonna objectify him, it's like he was gorgeous, but then also he had this like, he was able to play this innocence that we still really believe. Still, it's like that, you know, he could bring in some of that Edward Scissorhands, like even Ichabod Crane, like that idea. And, you know, he's the big eyes and just innocent face and his delivery is quite good. I think if it's not a real person, if you're thinking, okay, well, this is like a fantasy of what that was, then yeah, he's perfect. But now that you pointed at the Toby Jones thing, I'm like, whoa, that's it. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to watch it the same again, but yeah, you're right, the production stuff, it's to me, it's also hook too. It's that play at the beginning. Oh, I just, I'm so swept up in that. Like really to me, that's some of the best stuff about Peter Pan, like you're imagining it, you're thinking it, you're feeling that kind of like, I worked in theater for a long time. And I think what maybe people who haven't don't go to theater, maybe, or either have felt there's like a discomfort. It's really, you know, it's kind of a good discomfort when you're watching a stage play, because you have to, like there has to be a different kind of tapping in than watching a movie, you know? Especially if the actors aren't mic'd, that's another thing. 'Cause then you have people that are kind of yelling as they're projecting. And there is like a, like a courage that you're watching happen on stage, you know, 'cause it's happening live before you, where you're having to like be there for them. You know, be there for the actors in a different way. And so there's a silence that is, you know, that is inherent in watching a stage play, like a quietness that I think in "Finding Neverland" and "Hook" that they do capture, where everybody's like, no one's speaking, you know? You can't hear popcorn, you can't hear any of that stuff. There's not all this sound that's being filled in, right? By a score or anything, there's just like a real quiet, awkward kind of thing that you kind of just have to be on board to like let go. And they capture that, and I just love that. I love that feeling, you know? - Yeah. - It's quite special. - I think that's really true. When people talk about films that are theatrical, it's usually not a compliment. But I think there's a way that film can capture that theatricality that's really compelling and moving and interesting to watch. And, you know, I think whenever you talk about like Bergman's "Magic Fluid" or, you know, even you think something like "Amadeus", I always think about like "Meet It All Shormen", talking about capturing the audience. You know, you think of those shots where it gets to like a kid watching the "Magic Fluid" or, you know, how people are reacting to this. It like that's as compelling as what's on the stage a lot of the time is how people are reacting to it and the emotions that they're going through. - I'm glad you brought that up. Sorry that "Amadeus" because there is a point in that, not to stray away from Peter Pan too much, but there's a point in that movie where you're hearing the music, but you're asked to believe that Mozart and Salieri are experiencing the same music in their heads at the same time. You can hear the music, but they're communicating through language about the music and you're like, "Okay, yeah, I'm on board, you know, like I'm seeing this." - They're trying to get on the same wavelength. - Yeah, and then he's almost creating a visual that would be in their minds as composers, but you're part of it now too because he's pumping through the actual music that they're hearing, you know. And it is almost like a play there too. So it kind of takes, he's kind of takes, he's doing stage stuff in the movie, but then he's kind of takes it into the film. - The idea of what that's like too. But you can totally see how that would play out on stage. - It's an interesting challenge. How do you film the imagination? How do you represent that in movies? I think like one thing I thought was sort of interesting about the 2003 version by P.J. Hogan. Like I didn't see that when it came out. I was just like a little bit too old for seeing it at the time. So it was kind of interesting to go back and watch it now. And it really feels like that era of, hey, we've got digital technology now. If we can do a thing, we should do a thing. Like it kind of has that feeling to it, which is something that, you know, I think people don't necessarily remember fondly, but there is like a charm when you go back and watch like Sky Captain of the World of Tomorrow or even this like Star Wars prequels, there's kind of like an ugly of just like, we can do anything. And like sometimes it's not good, the end results, but I think like in a way, I kind of miss that disregard for realism and that kind of embrace of the fakeness of digital technology. I think like that's something I kind of missed these days where like a lot of the standards that we apply to special effects, it's the fear of similitude, how real it feels, how really can fit into the environment. And, you know, sometimes I think stuff shouldn't be realistic. Like I mean, the 2003 version, it's also so garish, the colors, the look of it, like the style, I had to double check. I was like, you know, did P.J. Hoke and ever work with Baslerman? Because it like just has that kind of, you know, I don't know if that's just an Australian thing, but like it does have some of that like Baslerman excess. I don't think he did. He worked with Julie Roberts though, but. - Yes. I thought about Baslerman a lot during this time watching these movies. I was kind of like, how do me as a maid, Peter Bantas? I'm like, I was actually like, what? How's that possible? How did they, how did Peter Pan get past Baslerman? (both laugh) Like, you know, you think that he would be all over it. You know, I think about Tinkerbell, like the Disney version of Tinkerbell and what he would kind of like do with that idea. Like, you know, she's like, the way she's built, you know, he'd probably like make that like a crazy something crazy. But I just, the 2003 version, it made me think if I were a tween, then maybe that would be my favorite one. - I think, yeah, like one thing I saw just kind of looking on Reddit and Twitter in a couple of places like that is like a lot of people who are a little bit younger than us who grew up with this version. That's their version. Like, you know, I totally get that. And it's not for me, but there's definitely things I appreciate about it. So. - It's, it's, yeah, you're right. It's, they threw everything at it. And, but also, it's oddly, the 2003 version, I was partly why I would have loved it as a tween or teen. Is it because it's oddly sexy? Like in this like, it's, you know. - It's a juvenile way. I know what you mean, like it really captures that, like crush on the, crush on a boy, crush on a girl. And then the melancholy in that version comes from, oh, I kind of outgrew this boy and I can't play with them anymore. Like, I think it captures that quite well. - Yeah, like that, that whole like, it's very like teen crush kind of like. - I think you're right that it probably does. I mean, everything in the movie's big. So like the juvenile crush stuff is also not subtle. Like, you know, I mean, it's a movie where people get kissed and they turn literally pink. So it's, it's that kind of a movie. - And they're too pretty. Like I, you know, like Peter Pan is just too like, too cool for school in that, you know, in that iteration. Like he's not bad, he's not bad. He's not a, like he's a good Peter Pan. He's just, I understand it. Like I can wrap my hand around a teenager girl being like, oh man, like. - I figure that's why they picked him, yeah. - Yeah, and, but then also, but when I meant more of the sexy part to you is like the Jason Isaacs. Like as an adult, like the Jason Isaacs hook is just, I don't know. He's too sexy. Like he's just like kind of like. - It's criticism of Captain Hook. - I just, no, it's like, I understood the tween thing. Like I could go, get behind that as like a teenager and that like the Peter Pan Wendy thing. I still don't, it's not for me, but I would have, as a teenager tween, I would have been like, but this would have been my Peter Pan. I would have been like obsessed with it. Like, like Twilight, you know what I mean? But then the Jason Isaacs hook is he's too sexy. Like the harness, you know? - Oh, and when you first see him and he's, 'cause like usually they don't show what his arm looks like with the book and like seeing that and putting the harness on when he's just kind of sweaty with his hair gel. - Like he's too BDSM for me. - He's just like, he's like in hibernation, waiting for a, waiting for Peter Pan to show up so you can try to kill him. - Yeah, but it's all like BDSM. Like he puts off a harness and then he like, straps himself in and I'm like, "Guys, it's not, I don't know." I just, it made me, it made me a little, and I'm, listen, I'm far from like British, I want, like, I love, you know, the sexy stuff, but there was almost, especially when they have their fight in the climax, he's kind of like, egging on a provoking Peter by saying, "Oh, what's gonna happen? "She's gonna, she's gonna leave you, "she's gonna outgrow you and you know, "he's gonna be there, her husband." I was like, ooh, like, (laughs) I'm like, you're all sexy and now you're talking about how Peter should be jealous because she's gonna have a husband one day, I don't know. It just, ooh, gave me the X, and it just lost some of it because I feel like there are plenty of stories that can be sexy, there are plenty of stories that can be like, like that, but to me, Peter Pan is very much, there's like, it's about innocence, right? So I just think it should, like, for me, it, like there's, it was too, it should have either leaned into that fully, you know, make everybody a little bit more grown up and lean into that fully as a thing, or if you're gonna be kind of kid-like over here, then you kind of, it's gotta be the whole way through. I was like, I don't wanna talk about you being jealous and her husband is weird. (laughs) - Like, I mean, obviously there's different interpretations, but I always think like Captain Hook should be just like this perfect balance between threatening and menacing and buffoonish and funny. Like, I think it has to strike that balance. - I'm thinking like Alan Rickman in Robin Hood, you know what I mean? - Yeah, that's a perfect example. - He's gonna like cut your heart out with the spoon, but he's also like kind of fumbling, you know, he's fumbling the ball a lot, you know? But that's also for grown-ups, so he can go a little darker, I guess, but with Peter Pan, yeah, it's like you wanna stay in that kind of pocket of being like tripping, but also could kill you. - Yeah, yeah. (laughs) - I mean, Dustin Hoffman plays that really well, I think in Hook. I don't know if every scene with him works, but I think like he does have that kind of balance of menace and actually be like, one of my favorite bits is when his wig gets knocked off. (laughs) Like, please just let me have my dignity. Like, and it's hard to compare, because I think every scene he's in with Bob Hoskins, I think Bob Hoskins somehow manages to steal it. He's so good, isn't that like, I feel like he kind of manages to run away with the movies, he's so good at this mystery. - When I think about, (laughs) when I think about Hook's entrance, a movie called Hook, and I think about Hook's entrance in- - We're thinking about Mr. Mary. - I think about Bob Hoskins. I know he dances before he- - He hits a little like, shoulder dance? - Yeah, and he does like a little hip, like almost like a belly dancer. He like, he like, plungers him in, he kills, he kills. - He's really good. - He understood that character on a level I don't, I can't, I don't even know what was going on. - I love the way to go to play Mr. Smee again on that Neverland mini series. Just, it's too good not to play again. Like, he was perfect as Mr. Smee. Like, you know, I didn't know you could have like a, the platonic ideal of a Mr. Smee, but there it is, you know. (laughing) - It's okay. - It's interesting that also, Don's doesn't often is in Finding Neverland, very different character. And I watched those two back-to-back, and it's really weird to go right from watching Hook to watching that and hearing his voice, 'cause his voice is so distinct, and being like, you're getting like hook feelings. Like, just going back and forth between the two, it did sort of make me think of that tradition of the actor who plays Mr. Darling, also playing Captain Hook. Like, it almost felt like that, we're like, oh, here's the fantasy, and then here's the reality. He plays Charles Roman, who produced the play. Did you read about how Charles Roman died? - Wow. - He was on the Lucetania, and he gave up his seat on the lifeboat to somebody else. And apparently as they were leaving, he paraphrased Peter Pan like, well, to die would be an awfully great adventure, something like that. I was like, oh my God. - Because yeah, because it's interesting, 'cause there's two iterations of that, 'cause I noted that too, because Kelly McDonald says it, that's interesting. She says, to die would be an awfully big adventure. In the other iterations, there's to live would be, but she says die in Finding Neverland. And so it's interesting that he said that maybe they kind of wanted that connection. He's placed such a wonderful man in the movie that kind of rings true in his life, I guess. - Yeah. - That's really sad, and we'll also wonder. - I'm telling people that you don't want to read about the real life stories of Peter Pan, 'cause they're all really sad. - Are you trying to say that Peter Pan's like cursed? (laughs) - Well, they've been a curse, but if you read about James Berry's life, and you read about the Llewellyn Davis boys, I keep almost saying Lleyn Davis, 'cause of the movie, but Llewellyn Davis boys, if you've got like a couple hours to kill and want to watch the version with Ian Holm, and it's like, there's so much sadness that underscores the story. And I think like a lot of that does come through. I think like, for me, one thing that Peter Pan is a story really captures is nostalgia. And I think like when people talk about nostalgia, what they usually mean is something for my childhood that I can revisit. And I think like that's not true nostalgia. I think the way I understand it, nostalgia, it's something that you can't revisit. It's that feeling of like, I can't return to my home country. It's that, something lost that you can't get back. Like a nostalgia is a painful feeling. There's a lot of that emotion in woven into the Peter Pan story. And I think there's ideas in there that, hey, maybe growing up is kind of sad, but it's not nearly as sad as staying young forever. You know, I think there's a lot of that in the story that you realize comes from a place of sadness, of grief. You know, I think that's such a big part of the story. And like, you know, there's so many lines, I forget if it's in the Peter Pan book or if it's in the Kensington garden, I have like one volume that's stuck them together, but there was that line about like Peter Pan going with like children who had died halfway to heaven, helping them along the way, you know, there's things like that that you realize it's coming from people who are trying to deal with their own personal grief. And, you know, James Berry, when you read about like his brother dying when he was very young and then the Llewellyn Davis boys, you know, finding Neverland, they mentioned that their father died of face cancer, but like when James Berry entered their life, like the father was still alive and, you know, lose their father, lose their mother. And then like most of those boys had like kind of sad outcomes to their life, either in World War I or, you know, not to get like two sidetracked with that, but it's just like, for me after learning about that, it's hard not to think about that when I watch these stories and think about what that really means to never grow old. That's, you know, people who we lose never grow old, you know? So I think like that's, that's for me an important element but I'm not sure every film version captures. - No, I wanted to talk about nostalgia because my handle is nostalgia file. And it's, so I think about nostalgia a lot. And I think I, on my Instagram, I have something like I have a healthy relationship with nostalgia, you know, or like, because actually how I got my, chose my handle, which was many years ago, was actually from watching an episode of Mad Men, which is probably one of the best episodes of television ever, it's called The Wheel. And Don Draper is talking about the Kodak Carousel and he's talking about nostalgia and how it's a, how it's a time machine. The carousel is actually a time machine. - Right, I remember the episode. - He breaks down what, yeah, and he breaks down what nostalgia is and he talks about, he uses a couple of phrases. He says, it's delicate, but it's potent, you know, he says that he learned from a Greek man that it's not, you know, it literally means pain from an old wound. And actually that is, like it was like kind of, nostalgia kind of came out of like a wartime thing, you know, this like attachment to their pain, you know, from the war. And also, I think he says something like, there's a twinge in your heart, much more powerful than memory alone. So I don't know, I just became obsessed with that because I love like old things and tactile things and having them grow, you know, like grow old over time. You know, I love the telling stories from a long time ago and bringing up how that's changed over time, how we think about things many years later. And I think about it a lot. So I think that's why I really do, I'm glad you asked me to do this because I really do love Peter Pan because I think it is very much connected to nostalgia. And I think, yes, inherently, the meaning of nostalgia is really tied up with grief. And now I sound like, why does she wanna be sad all the time? It's not about that, since I think about, but it's not about that. It's more like, I think that why I say I have a healthy relationship with it is because I think it's important of how I see, you know, what I wanna do going forward. You know, I don't want to stay in the nostalgia, but it's a nice place to visit, kind of thing. And it also helps me realize that I don't want to stay in the past, you know, it's like, it is really like, I think that's what Peter Pan is. It's this idea, it's fascinating. It's actually, it's quite genius, his story. The idea that, yes, we all have like an obsession with youth, you know, we all remember the good old days of our life. We wanna go back to where we didn't have attachments or responsibilities that kept us from doing whatever we wanted. And when we're children, there is a lack of responsibility. But then the genius of it is also that once you get enough of that, you realize there's only so much of it. And then you wanna go forward and see what else. So the real adventure is actually growing up. That's actually what, you know, it's sometimes I think that when there's iterations of the story, they don't really capture that idea where it's like, you know what, actually Peter is stuck there, you know, and that it is inherently sad that he is kind of stuck there and can't let go of that. And that growing up is the good thing, you know, is that next chapter. I think that's very, very well said, I'm thinking about that Montage sequence in Hoek, when you have Wendy with Gwyneth Paltrow getting older and older as he's revisiting her and that feeling like he's the one being left behind, you know. - What's kind of excellent about Hoek is that he realizes that I got to grow up. That's where I, when he realizes, oh, he remembers he's Peter and he remembers that and he can grow and he can do all these things. And he, you know, he remembers that useful stuff and he's having fun with Tinkerbell when he doesn't realize she kind of realizes, dude, you have family and stuff and he's not really, he hasn't clocked into that yet 'cause he's like shifted full on Peter. But she's sad because she realizes when he does remember that he has a family and that he has created a life outside of Neverland, he's gonna wanna be there, you know, she knows that and she, 'cause she knows that he loves them. So yeah, that's what Hoek has a version of Peter that got to grow up and loves that he got to grow up because he got to have a family and that was an adventure in itself. - I like that it takes that step beyond, there were so many '80s films about like the father who works too hard who discovers his inner child and that's it. And like this-- - So many. - You know, the second act is he discovers his inner child, the kind of little bit too drawn out second act. But, you know, he discovers his inner child and that's not the full story. Like he's gotta realize like, oh no, I grew up because I wanted to be a father. And one thing I really like in the book is how it keeps emphasizing how selfish Peter Pan is. It's such a like child like thing, but you could do something for him and he'd be like, oh, I'm so clever. You know, like it's like he doesn't even think about the world outside of himself and that's part of the appeal. But you know, you've got all these women characters like Tinker Bell or even the mermaids or Tiger Little, you know, who are all kind of care about him and it is a very inherently selfish character. - He's a real stinker, yeah. - Yeah, so growing up, you know, I think it means caring about other people. - Yeah, growing up means, well, there's responsibility, but also like, yes, it is about opening yourself up to, yeah. - Feel free to disagree with me, but especially watching the film now, I think Robin Williams is like an inherently likable jokey kind of person. So they kind of resort to making him to be like too much of an asshole at the beginning. I always think like, I always think, instead of being somebody who like shouts at his kids and stuff like that, he could have just been stern and like adult in the way that we think of, I don't like maybe Jason Isaacs being adult, you know? Like I think Robin Williams does a really fantastic job in the film and he plays every note as well as he can, but it's like, you kind of want to see the fun of somebody who doesn't seem like they're in touch with their inner child, get in touch with their inner child and turn out to be Peter Pan. Like, I feel like that's something that is maybe in the script that doesn't come through when you cast somebody who's like inherently likable in childlike and then you have to kind of work against that. Like, I don't know, I was thinking just this time, like, you know, how Hook might have been if it wasn't directed by Spielberg if circumstances were a little bit different. I think like initially it was going to be directed by Nick Castle, who's got the story credit on it, who did "Last Starfighter" and I was like, you know, I wonder what Hook would have been like if it had like a 10th of the budget, less famous people, just what that film would have been like and how different it might have been. I don't know, it was just occurring to me this time around, like, what it could have been like. - It's really interesting 'cause of, first of all, I love "Last Starfighter" but the idea, it's a similar kind of... - Going from mundane life to this big adventure. - Yeah, yeah, similar themes, yeah. But I kinda understand what you mean about the... - From Williams, but more so I was thinking like, I never really realized like broke Hook down and it is that "Last Act" is very frustrating. Like it's like there's something endings. And it ends multiple times and it doesn't need to, I don't think, I think it could have been like a much tighter at the tail end. But also there, I never realized that there's kind of discomfort to him being like a lost boy again 'cause I'm like, oh yeah, you're a full on adult. This is weird, you know? But there's also a magic to it. Like when the kind of passing of the guard, you know, what is it, Rupio, to Peter? And he says, you can, you know, you can fight, you can fly, you can fight. And then he's like, and he crows and it's like, and it's kind of awesome. Like it's like off the hook, like it's like boom. But also it's like, there is like watching him fly and stuff and doing certain things. And I was kind of like, I don't know, I'm good, you know? (laughing) So good now. - There's a lot I love about this film, but there's also a lot that like watching it now isn't at all like, oh. - I want to get at it. I think I want to get out of it quicker. You know what I mean? Because I'm just like, yeah. - And there's also other parts where, you know, when Maggie Smith is kind of like, she touches his face, which is like basically saying like, I was your girl, like, you know, I was the one. And I'm kind of like, oh, 'cause she's like granny now. And I'm kind of, not because of her age, but because he's with her daughter, like her grandmother. He's with, no, he's, yeah, he's with her granddaughter, right? Or is she her grandmother? Is more of her-- - No, no, no. She's her daughter, right? I can't see Alicey. - Oh my gosh. Is Moira her daughter or her granddaughter? - No. - She's her daughter. - She has to be her daughter. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay. - She's like 13. Yeah, okay. Oh my God. (laughing) - I'm so sorry. - Also like, talk about how many times I've watched this movie. I always thought his last name was Peter Panning in the film, but it's banning with a bee. I was like, I've seen this about how many times I did it. - I noticed that. (laughing) - I almost think that, I always feel like she's almost, they've made her, they aged her up a little too much, I feel like to be, anyhow. - I guess they thought about like what age she would have to be with the, with the play. - Yeah, with the play, yeah. - But like, no, she's gonna be her grandmother. It doesn't work out. (laughing) - You didn't say it. - You notice it. I can't remember what she says when she talks about that age, but then, you know, I was looking at the end of the book and there is that, you know, there's something about older things where there's like a discomfort, sometimes with certain kinds of things 'cause I was just different back then. Like the fairies in the book have an orgy and I'm kind of like, what did orgy mean a different thing like that? No, you're really having an orgy, or did it mean something? You know, it's like, (laughing) and then I was like, basically Peter's just been like, generationally coming and picking up the darling girls and like, sweeping them off. Like he just, that's like the end of the book, right? He comes and he, there's like a new young darling girl and he's like, hey, how's it going? Let's go to Neverland each time and they're kind of all used to it. And it's, but it kind of, if you really think about, it's kind of weird, it kind of incestuous. Like it's not, but it's like, you know, it kind of reminds me of that Star Trek episode. Sabrosa, but anyway, that's another. - Which episode is that? - My friend makes one of me because I used to love it. I said I used to love it when I was a teenager and I was on this panel about Star Trek and he like constantly comes at me and trolls me about it. It's called Sabrosa. It's when Dr. Crusher ran my eyes. - We got grandmothers. - We got this to like, like colony Scotland. - Yeah. (laughs) - Okay, I know the episode now. - Ghost Campbell, ghost Campbell. - I know, already ghost grandma. - Yeah, ghost mom. - And you realize that all the, that this ghost has been getting on with generation, a generation of Crusher women? - No, they're not Crusher's. They're whatever her maiden name is. - Yeah. - But like, and they're, you know, their eyes change color. Like, that's why everybody has green eyes and then her eyes. Like it's just being, he's just like, banging all these ladies for like, generally. (laughing) - I mean, I think like, yeah, that, I mean, the ending of the book, I think like it's meant to work in sort of a metaphorical sense of like each generation is gonna go on these adventures and have these reveries. And, but like, if you take it literally, yeah, it's creepy. - I am making it sound, I love them. It's sweet, you can read it to yourself. Don't worry, don't listen to me. It's like, it's, it's, but I am making it smartier than, than it, I think it's intended. - But it always got me like, again, talking about like Peter Pan selfishness is at the end when she asks about Tinker Bell and it's like, I don't know, maybe she died. I don't care. (laughing) Like it barely registers. He's like, I don't know, fairies don't live long. Like, you know, it's like a kid who forgot that their pet died. Like, you know, it's, it's so sad at all. But I don't, I think I get like talking about looking at the stuff through adult eyes. I think also that's where a lot of it is most effective. I mean, like clapping to keep Tinker Bell alive, it's not moving because you believe in fairies. It's moving because you don't anymore and you want to recapture that and you want to. Like, I think like that's kind of the magic of the, of the story that comes through, especially like in the 1924 version where they just literally do that. And I think like it's hard to, it's hard to ask that of an adult audience without risking being very hokey or you know, but I think like, I would much rather the film take that chance than they're not like, you know what your version we haven't talked about at all, which I think is like not very good is the, the Joe Wright version from 2015. - Pan. - Yeah, Pan, which is sort of a prequel, how Peter Pan became Peter Pan. - It's that origin story. - But it takes itself so seriously. It's like, gosh, I mean, like, - Incredibly serious. - I mean, you know, everyone talks about the musical number with the pirates. Like, sure, that's fun. But that's like two minutes out of the movie. The rest is very serious. And all that stuff about like prophecy and like it's just, and even when it's like, this is supposed to be fun. Like, Garrett Hedlund is like the young Captain Hook is supposed to be like the solo type. It feels so like, insert funny here kind of a moment, you know? It's like, it doesn't work at all. It's just like, it's nothing that I think reflects consecutively on the child actor playing Peter Pan. But this whole idea of the approach being like somebody who has like no sense of fun to them in the character. Like, I think it's how they're directed. It's obviously like not the child actor. I'm not trying to pick on a kid. You know, it's like this version of Peter Pan, this interpretation is joyless. - Yeah, when you said talked about, it's almost about the how the adults interact with it and wanting to be, wanting to capture that part of the league. In "Finding La Merland," they kind of nail it. When she does the clapping part, you know, at their house. And it's Julie Christie, the oldest person in the room who claps first, and it says that she believes in Paris and claps. And that's, yeah, I love that because it's like, it's her that gets swept up before the children, before, you know, anyone else. It's her that's, who's been tragedy. Who's been like, basically, they've made her out to look like Hook, that she's so, she's so angry that he imagines her as Hook. And then she's the one who is so moved. And yeah, so she gets to have that relive that use for herself. But yeah, in Pan, yes, everything's taken so seriously and very odd things are written into it. It's like there was not a regard for what the themes of the story are. Like what is Peter Pan about? It's like no one thought about that one making that movie. They thought about some of the things that are kind of neat about the, I don't say mythology of the story, but they didn't think about what it's really about. So you have like flying and there's fairies and we know there's like very dust and then they have like what Blitzky pop in there as a song and then another song. And I'm just like, okay, whatever. 'Cause they have those songs and they were like whatever. I'm not. - Also, I mean, like Joe Wright, I think is like a perfectly good director, but you know. - I think about like, I think about something like Pride and Prejudice. Yeah, Pride and Prejudice. And I think that he has the ability to have made like a version of Peter Pan that would be because there is a romance to Peter Pan. But and he can do that. Like, he can do that, but you gotta strip it down. Like, you know, when you look at something like Pride and Prejudice, it's about the story. It's just about the story. And then it does look beautiful, but that's because the beauty is like the second part. And so the beauty comes through quite well. It's a gorgeous film. But then it's focused on the daughters and their story. And you know, Elizabeth, the Bennets and Elizabeth's story. So he has it in there to do. Like, if you can do Elizabeth Bennet and make it romantic and make me feel all those things, 'cause I love that version, you can do something with Wendy, you know what I mean? - I think that's a really good point. I mean, maybe if he had done something that wasn't a prequel that was like a more traditional kind of approach to the story that might've worked better. Because I think like some of the stuff that throws me off in the pan movie is just like that prequel syndrome of like, we need to explain this and this. And adding mythology that nobody cares about, like Peter Pan's mother and the prophecy. It's like what-- - And Blackbeard. And I'm just kind of, I was just like, this has nothing to do with the themes of the story. - I mean, one of the things I remember the film getting flak for at the time when it came out was Runemara playing Tiger Lily, which I think clearly doesn't work in this movie. I think in a different movie that really tried to emphasize, oh, this isn't reality, this is like kids playing a game. Maybe you could've gotten away with that, but like this film is so, takes, again, takes itself so seriously that when you watch like Runemara show up, dressed like she's doing Avatar cosplayers. - She's like, so they're indigenous people. They're an indigenous people, right? They're referred to as natives. They're indigenous people and she's white. And then he has a relationship that I think is also somehow related to them, Peter. So he's white. And then his mother also has like, is also related to them. - It's very good to say. - It's also related to them. And she's like, so it's like all the three people that get to have like a voice as the people that are indigenous are all white people. They have brown people that are playing indigenous people that are part of that group, but they don't get to like have really a say in what's happening. So it's kind of like, why did you even bother, you know, doing that? And we know that Tiger Lily is supposed to be indigenous. So it's kind of like what was the point of doing that? And then having three people that are like supposed to be like integrated into this group of people that are also seemingly far away from it. So I just felt like there was nothing really that mattered to the story of Peter Pan, you know, there wasn't even his, oh, and it really was just trying to be like the prophecy, the chosen one. So it was like back to that kind of like Harry Potter kind of, you know, idea. Yeah, where everybody constantly, everybody has to be a chosen one. There's only one person that can do it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's not Peter Pan. That's not necessary to tell his story. And then the whole thing, there was no growth or even like there was nothing that showed Hook to be what he could be in the future. That's gonna tip him over. There's nothing in the relationship that really made me think he's going to tip over to be his nemesis. - But one thing I really liked in the Peter Pan and Wendy that David Law Reversion, I think like, even though the backstory is kind of convoluted, I like that idea that Jude Law's Captain Hook is like a former lost boy who's like an adult, you know, in a literal sense, he's going after Peter Pan. He's trying to recapture his childhood and that there's something messed up about an adult trying to recapture their childhood. I think like that theme I actually thought was kind of interesting about it. But just what we were talking about, the indigenous representation, you know, to me, it's one aspect of these films that I think is interesting because in a lot of ways it shows that representation isn't linear progression. A lot of times it feels like two steps forward, one step back, I think like, you know, I mean, the 1920s version, I feel like a lot of the things in it that I could criticize, I feel very forgiving of because like the Disney version is what follows it up. You know what I mean? And plus it's just cool to see anime Wong, you know, she's just like one of the most beautiful, charming, charismatic people. And she just is like a joy to watch on film. So I think like, you know, it's just nice to see her in the 1920s version. That's kind of, but I gotta say about that. But, you know, I think like a lot of times it feels like because of the history of indigenous representation and just indigenous history as a whole, some of these films struggle to find that way to strike that balance of like, hey, we wanna take this seriously. Also, we don't wanna take the rest of the film too seriously. Like I think, I mean, one thing that I thought was notable about Hook is that it just completely glosses over any kind of indigenous character representation. You know, there's one line, I think in the film about Hook saying, you know, we can go and shoot some Indians or something like that or I'm tired of shooting Indians. I think like that's basically it. You know, and it felt to me almost like with Hook, there was so much already going on that Spielberg was like, I don't wanna bring this other element in film. So you just like, glossed over. But, you know, it's not until like the 2003 version where you actually have like an indigenous actress playing tiger hilly, you know, like it's this long kind of bumpy road who I really liked actually, I thought was Alyssa Wapadatak in Peter Pan and Wendy. - Yes. - I thought like, she just looks badass. - Yeah, she is badass, but also it's kind of like, well, you would think by now that we would probably try and if we're going to have tiger hilly and be in a pan, let's try and do it as well as we can. And now like, I mean, 20, 20, 20, 20 years after. - It's kind of like, can we do this? Can we do this right? Because really the 2015 one is absurdly late to be making that kind of those kinds of mistakes, you know, to be so insensitive at that time is just kind of bonkers. I'm not saying, listen, we'll be insensitive again. Like it's not- - I know, I think it's not a lot of you know, I think like a lot of times when people discuss representation in movies in any subject, it's easy to kind of structure it in terms of, you know, hey, we're just like slowly progressing along and things are getting better as we, you know, and I think like it's, it's often much messier than that. - It is because, you know, when I look at cinema, for instance, like there are characters in the 70s that are black characters as a black person, people, people, people listening, they can't see me. So I'm looking at some characters even from a long time ago, where it's like, how did they have such excellent representation of a black person, you know, in like the 60s or the 70s? And we can't figure it out in the 2020s is baffling to me sometimes. But I'm like, yeah, it's very human to just all of a sudden, you know, backtrack, go backwards again. And with art, with anything really, we are humans are really cyclical, you know, we, we backtrack, we go back around in a circle again. So, so often, so yeah, I've seen better representation in really old films than I've seen in some very, very new films, you know. So, yeah, Tiger Lily, yeah, it's interesting because when I look at the 1924 one, yes, it is, you know, it's not right then. But yes, Aunt May Wong is like, you want to see, you do want to see her. Yeah. And then it feels like not outright disrespectful, hateful, like the animated Disney version does. It's the way any indigenous person is portrayed in that film is really quite awful, except for, I will say, Tiger Lily, like her drawing of her is. She looks very dignified. Yeah. And she's really, really cute, you know, she, but then it's like, it's everything else that goes along with it. So, yeah, but then that 2015 one. Oh, that might be, that might be the worst one because we're so far along, you know, that it's like, there's no reason for it. There's not this outdated language or outdated thinking or whatever. It just is like, that's agreed, like, that's the worst one. Every once in a while, also it felt like like a big release. Like, I remember when I went to see Peter Jackson's King Kong. In the theaters, yeah, and they get to the Skull Island. And I'm like, wait, like, you can still do this. Put it in a movie and get in the theaters. Like, you can still get away with this. Even like, even when I look at finding Neverland, yeah, there. It's like, I was like, oh, yeah, then that whole thing with Indians. And they're playing and I'm like, OK, yeah, I had to know that. So it's going to happen. And then they do it again when he shows up in the headdress out of nowhere. And they think it's funny. And then then they do it again, right? Like, so it's like, I was like three times really, guys. You had to do a three. Why you had to, right? And sometimes I just think in general, like, listen, I don't want to erase tire really, right? No, I think, like, but why? Why was he so what? What made him do it in the first place is what, you know, I think, especially you think about kids in England and, like, Native Americans were as much a part of their fantasy world as fairies for, like, a lot of these people. And there was a detachment from real people and the real history and all of that. So I think, like, there's this gap that, you know, we're talking about this fantasy story that you're trying to fill with a reality. And I think, like, that's what a lot of these adaptations, I think, have kind of struggled with, but anyway, that's definitely one thing I liked more about the David Lowry version and just the costumes and the sets. Like, there's an attention to detail that kind of brought a sense of authenticity, while still keeping the fun of the story. Like, I think, like, he struck a really careful balance with that, which I liked. And also, like, Alyssa Wappadotak, the way she kind of plays it, like, Tiger Lillie is almost like the babysitter for these characters. Like, I like that sort of interpretation. Yeah, I feel like I don't know if anybody will ever get her right. Like, I feel like he's probably done the best, but I feel like, like, like what you said, there is like a mothering there. And I'm always like, whenever, you know, a character is like mothering. That's a POC or a black character, you know, of, like, white people. I'm a whole, you know, I have to clock that in my mind. I always think about the idea of like the magical Negro that Spike Lee coined that term. You know, I'm always paying attention to, hmm, what are, what's our purpose here? What are we, what are we doing here? You know, what is this brown person, you know, what's their purpose? You know, isn't just in service of white people. And I think that's not the case here. I don't think that's what he's doing here, but I feel like I've got to be like, should you have to be like, I mean, I think like part of it is with the Peter Penn and Wendy version, you know, we talked about like how the 2003 version, it's like maybe a little bit too sexual. This one, it's like almost the opposite direction where it's kind of scared of any relationships that aren't maternal or paternal. Like, I think like it's sort of notable that the relationship between Captain Hook and Mr. Smee in the Peter Pan and Wendy film is framed as like being purely paternalistic with like, oh, Mr. Smee raised him, I guess. And I don't like they're, you know, they're scared of any kind of homoerotic overtones to those characters, which, again, like it feels like some kind of focus group like, ah, we don't want to go there. But, you know, it's, I mean, that's, I think also part of the way that the characters have come across since the beginning. And it does kind of evade that aren't, you know, paternal or maternal. Yeah, I feel like in the Lowering One, it's almost, it's where, where I felt like the 2003 one was being like, oh, little dude, like, which wasn't entirely bad. It was just like, for me, I was like, there's something not that they haven't like pinned down quite right. It wasn't like that. It was just like, there's something, it wasn't even completely uncomfortable. It was just kind of like, why, why that, why those choices? But with the Lowering One, I feel like it's almost a little too clean. Like that's my criticism of that. It's all it doesn't like, I feel like Peter Pan is kind of dark. Has to ride a line between like innocent and being sweet. And then also being like, this is kind of the idea of this is kind of messed up. But the idea of Lost Boys is kind of messed up. They're orphans, you know, and that's all well and good because they can do whatever they want, but then also it's weird. I do like the explanation in the book of why, why they're only boys. It's like, well, girls are much too clever to fall out of the press. Yeah, and that yeah, that was something that jumped out. I mean, revisiting the animated Disney film was in the book, Peter Pan likes girls. And in the animated Disney version, he's kind of like a jerk to girls. It's it's kind of a weird choice. I feel like, I don't know if there's something that feels off to me about that interpretation of the character. I know it's like very beloved, you know, a lot of grew up with that. But I don't know, I don't really like the Disney version. I love the way it looks. Yeah, I mean, specifically like the character, the character. Yeah, he's a he's a jerk, you know, he's a jerk. He I remember I was like, oh man, he's a stinker. Like he's just like, he's not even fun to be around. And she's she's so sweet, yeah, Wendy. And he's not like there's no desire there. Like in the other Peter, well, in Pan, there's no Wendy. Right. No, there's no Wendy in Pan. See, that's another problem. That's a huge problem. That's a huge problem. Wendy's got it. There's got to be, you know, yeah, if you're going to talk about Peter, then you have to talk about Wendy, in my opinion, unless you're writing a completely different story that has nothing to do with either of them. You know, but with Peter's there, then there should be Wendy. But I guess there can't be a Wendy yet because he's not really Peter Pan yet. So that's the origin story of that. So Peter became Pan. That's not good. But I think because, you know, why I say that when he has to be there was because really, if you really boil it down, Peter Pan is her is part of her imagination. Yeah. So if she's not there, then he can he kind of doesn't exist in my opinion. And so, yeah, like when you look at the 1953 version, it's like the idea that he doesn't like girls doesn't give as much of a desire for her to want to go and be around and hang out with them. And he's even the way his face is drawn. It's kind of like you're like not appealing, like his expression, appealing. Like, to me, he's like kind of quintessentially Peter Pan. Like you like in my mind, if somebody said, take a Peter Pan, he probably would be like the first Peter Pan, I think. But I mean, his expressions and how he speaks is kind of like he's kind of a jerk. Yeah, I've kind of gone back and forth on this with myself. But I don't know if you have any strong opinions about whether it should be an American or British performer as Peter Pan. But like Bobby Driscoll's voice, again, if you want to if you want to feel bad, just read about the real stories of so many people. Bobby Driscoll, very sad, but like doing him as a 1950s American boy. I guess the the plate was also like hugely popular in America. So like I think like there was kind of an Americanization of Peter Pan. Of course, you have Robin Williams. I think maybe that's something else that looking at Hook Now doesn't quite feel right to me is like Peter Pan being an American. I don't know for some reason. I think like you said, it feels like he should be Wendy's imagination come to life. And there's something that feels weird to me about being an American. I do like the American flag showing up in the silent film version. But that feels like just a joke, like it's just funny phrases, the American flag. Yeah, and that is also tied up with like, I guess, uh, what would you say? An American file thing of like, Jan Barry had, you know, even with the indigenous people, like the incorporation of like Tiger Lily and so that is, is American, right? Cause and so I guess that's that. But then it's like, aren't there, aren't most of the Peter Pan's American? I think so. I mean, and then yeah, it's the one in the 2003 versions American. Yeah, I think more often than not, Peter Pan's American, but. I don't know why there is it. OK, I will say this. OK, so to me, there is like a brashness and a certain attitude. And, uh, also I don't want to do it. Anybody else says I only will do what I think that is Peter Pan has that could be. Um, seen as very American kind of attitude. OK, I'll buy it, but, but I actually was thinking about who would have been a great Peter Pan, you know, like when they were a kid, like actors now. And I was like, oh, you know, like I was thinking Tom Holland, Tom Holland, would have, would have been a great Peter Pan, you know, he was Billy Elliot on stage. Probably would have been a great Peter Pan, but Tom Holland also seems like he's not doing any British accents anymore when he's acting seems to only be doing a American accent. So I imagine if he played Peter Pan, he probably played as an American too. OK, I'm going to throw a name out who I think would have made a good. But, you know, say you're doing a completely different version of hook at the same time, who I think would have made a good adult Peter Pan. I think early 90s Richard E. Grant, I think would have knocked it out of the park as an adult Peter Pan. I think like, you know, for somebody to go from like stern adult to, yeah, finding his inner child and becoming a growing Peter Pan, I would have watched that. Yeah, that's my pick. Nice. Yeah, I can totally see that. But I still think if Tom Holland, we're going to be in a version of hook now as a grown up Peter, he'd play him with a probably with American accent. Because he does every role with an American accent. Like I'm dying for him to be British again. Like I just like in interviews, obviously, but I just want him to play a role that's British again. That would be good. Anyway, um, but yeah, I guess we're talking about versions of the film. You had wanted to know what kind of Peter Pan did you want to talk about that? What kind of you would make? Yeah, let's do it. What kind of Peter Pan film would you like to make if you have the chance? I thought about this a lot and I had like a few versions. I'll tell you that one of them was, I'll tell you one of them. That was a Tinkerbell, just a Tinkerbell movie. Tinkerbell meets kind of like a little mermaid because basically like the reason why Tinkerbell hangs around Peter so much is because she's in love with him and in the same way that she's like, so she's kind of like separated from her community as a fairy. But I would probably like want to see her like Tinkering because that's how she was. She has her name and maybe that's like the family name and I want to see her. Like, you know, the family business, you know what I mean? Like doing her tinkering and stuff like that. And then she like sees Peter and then, you know, kind of becomes obsessed with him and like leads the adventure from her point of view. That was and it's just called Tinker. I don't like the many versions I had in my head. Why I decided to tell that one. I think because I like it. I like it. The body has to laugh. So it was like CGI, Disney, Tinkerbell movies. I haven't seen any of them. No, but I just like thinking like, yeah, it's like a live action of Tinkerbell from that point of view. You we get to see like what it's like with the fairies, you know what I mean? What they're like, and especially if they're so small and they're just like explosive like that. And like either side, like I want to see what their community is like, you know, what their traditions are. And I want to see her do her job because there are like illustrations of her and she has like tools and like I want to see that. But then also then get her have her be swept away, like get distracted by Peter, you know, and kind of like move away from her community. And that way, that that was right. I also had some other ones, but I'll keep those on a route. All right, it's saving for when you're at the screen, but yeah, I want to write like what other three I mean, when I would like to see one word. Just one word. What I would like to see is a contemporary Peter Pan. I know like Hook kind of does it by by having Peter Pan all grown up, but I would like to see like Peter Pan still young and it's just present day. And you know, maybe a bunch of stuff's happened and neverland since the last time you heard about it. And there's, you know, maybe her name's Wendy, but she's a different Wendy and she goes off on an adventure and you could kind of do like a modernized version and update certain things and change certain things to make it present day. I think that would be kind of cool because a lot of these stories are set in the past. And I think it would just be fun to do like a modern take on that. And what would it be called? Oh, Peter, Peter. Hi, all the names are taken. Peter Pan, Pan, Peter Pan and Wendy, maybe how about Peter Pan 2025? Oh, my God. Yeah, it's like Trump, but Peter Pan is a terrible idea. I mean, that's as good as Jankar. I was watching the behind the scenes for Exorcist 3, which was originally going to be called Legion because it was based on the book Legion and there was no Exorcism in it. And then at a certain point, the studio was like, hey, we've got to put an Exorcism in it. And like, I guess the best title they could come up with at that time was Exorcist 1990. And it's fun just watching the behind the scenes were really in bladdies, like rolling his eyes, being like, yeah, making Exorcist 1990. I just think about that whenever he's got like the year in the title. I love how it criticized Pan and then basically did like a similar thing, like created an origin story and then just called it one word. And remember when that long titles, like I feel like everything's going to have like, yeah, like the one syllable, one word kind of title, like, you know, I want the glorious return to Peter Pan or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's like, what's the better about curious? Yeah, curious, curious case of Peter Pan. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to, the thing is, there's been so many iterations of it. And it's like they're similar, but yeah. And usually when they try something a little bit too different, like a prequel, it's like, no, this is bad. Please, please go back. I think sometimes you got to keep it simple, but like a lot of the things I don't like in some of these versions are one, they kind of convolute things. I'm like, what, what does Captain Hook need a backstory? Why does Peter Pan need to be the chosen one? What, you know, like stuff like that. I feel, I mean, I feel like because it comes from, you know, within the story, it's like the extension of the imagination of a young girl. Neverland, you know, you could go and then a week later it would be completely different because it's a different adventure and a different story. And I think like it shouldn't be locked down in lore and all that canonical nonsense. I feel like, I don't know, like that's in her chip. People obsess over that. And that's not really how like the imagination of the child works. Right. So interesting, when you, when you look at it, I always wonder how long are they gone? Like in Hook, we know how long they're gone. We know how long they're gone. I thought it was like maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but I thought with Hook. He's in Neverland for three days, but when it comes back, it's the next morning, right? Oh, like I think it's like a Christmas Carol thing where, you know, each night, you'll be visited by a different ghost. But then when he wakes up and it's Christmas morning. So is it only the one night in in reality? Yeah, in reality. So that's how I was. Other iterations, is it just the same night, like the next day they come back or whatever? I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure if it's explicit, because like you could take it different ways. And like, I mean, one moment that I thought was like so strange in the silent version is when the darlings are at the party and they see the kids flying around through the window. I'm like, Oh, this is weird because you're seeing like an outside perspective. And oh, it's literally happening. Like it's not just, you know, they've entered imagination. Yeah, yeah. I think like, you know, you could have them be gone for a week in Neverland and come back. And it's the next morning, you know, they're just going to be the night because it's just, you know, that night of dreaming, imagining. The reason I ask is because I think it's Michael. He doesn't remember home. He doesn't even remember his mom in the 20 like he's he forgets that Wendy isn't his mother. And the 2003 version, they show time passing with the darlings, waiting for the kids to return home. So it's, yes, I guess it's just up to how you want to frame this stuff. But like for me, Hook was always this sort of Christmas carol kind of scenario where it's three days, but then it's yeah, the 1924 version when Michael looks at the nursery. I think it's only him because I think probably because he's the youngest. He doesn't actually recognize the nursery. He sees their mother and he doesn't recognize her as his mother at first. Yeah, there's like little things like that that I kind of like. I like the idea that it's like, oh, I don't, you know, I think it should be like time to wind these spacey wacy. Yeah. Yeah, what? And they remember like it's not like, you know, it's just different for him, but like. John and Wendy remember everything because they're older. So they're starting to like lose that where he's just kind of like consumed by it. And yeah, I think that's very cool. I think it's cool. Like Neverland really shouldn't. It's interesting that there's clocks and clock, a clock plays a part in the story too, but it's kind of seems like it's timeless there. I think so. I mean, the clocks, it's framed as like specifically like an adult concern because it's it's the ticking of the clock and the crocodile chasing after. I mean, finding Neverland, they spell it totally out where it's like, oh, yeah. The clock is the ticking of time out to get Captain Hook and he's like, you know, they kind of spell it out. But just, you know, I think even setting aside the whole idea of the clock represents the time you have left on this earth and it's definitely coming to get you. I think like, you know, kids just aren't concerned about time and the way that adults are with schedules and with all of that stuff. But well, I mean, I guess that makes sense that the clock is more like connected to Hook rather than the lost boys themselves. So that kind of does make sense. I just like all these things in Peter Pan, like the idea that that's the crock of that Peter Pan said the hand to the crocodile. And so then now the crocodile has a taste for Hook that is just makes him want to stock. And so put a clock in the he put a clock in him that he could get a warning when the crocodile was coming again. That's that's great. I love that stuff. Even though it's like very theatrical, I love in the 1920s version that the animals are all just people in costumes, like the crocodile, the man of the dog, it's it's so bizarre. And they're like some of those shots where it's just like the crocodiles like chilling on the rocks and because it's black and white, it sort of blends in and it's kind of creepy. I think they feel so scary. So scary again, like the third of the movie is so kind of closed in and it feels like, oh, this is really a set that when they go to Neverland and you see like the mermaids sunbathing, I'm like, oh, this is beautiful. Actually, you know, when you see the ship and everything, it's like, oh, this is great. This is it's so magical to like break free. I think that's what part of the magic of it though, like need to be in that enclosed space. Like for a while to feel the magic of when they get to Neverland, you know. Oh, that's another thing. It has like, there's not really a location because it's in the book. It he doesn't say star. He doesn't it that's I think that was later. That's like a theatrical thing, like a, like a, like a. Like Peter Pan editions that got picked up like later on, like even in finding Neverland, I noticed like, you know, they mentioned the fairy dust to fly or they have a clapping. And I think like both of those were later additions to the play. The first because they didn't want kids jumping off of things. Another ladder because because it played really well. But I think, you know, there were a couple of things that just kind of got it's like with Dracula movies where like stuff just kind of gets like sure into the mythology. And then you go back and read the book. It's like, oh, that like, what do you mean? There's no romance between Dracula and me. You know, yeah, there's like there's like rules and stuff like that that change over the time. And some writers will like adopt them and others, not, you know, like, can members be in the sun? Can they not be, you know, stuff like that? But yeah, in the book, it's like he just says second to the second to the right. He doesn't say second star. And well, I like that Peter Panett windy on the way back. When it hits like, oh, yeah, just second star to the right and straight until morning. They're like, don't you mean to the left because we're. No, because it's like the reverse, right? Like, yeah, I hear that too. And I was just like, I thought that's pretty funny. So in the 1924 one, does he say star or is it Disney or did Disney create that? That might have come from Disney, although like Disney might have created a part of me feels like it should be in the book because even like Captain Kurt said second start of the right and straight until morning. Yes, but I think it's because it got Disney. It got Disney-ified. Yeah, because yeah, in the book, it's just the only word that's missing is star. Yeah, second to the right. Yeah, you have a Captain Kurt and I love that moment. Like I actually get as a Trekkie. I get very emotional when he says that. I get so emotional. I want you to happen, folks. It's great. I just, I love it so much. I think it's like really special. I'm a sucker for all these little things. Like when, you know, they talk about how fairies are made. Yeah. You know, a baby's laugh that breaks into a thousand pieces. I think one, somebody says a million pieces and breaks on. That's so. I love that in Hook when he says, I don't believe in fairies. And Julia Roberts just hands up the fake death. It's so funny. Like she's so good. I love that it's so lovely. Which one is it where Peter covers the person's mouth? Recovers. Oh, I don't believe in fairies. And he covers the mouth before that might be in the 2003 version. Yeah, I don't ever say that. Yeah, anybody like comes out of really hard. Like it's super serious. It's so serious. And later when Jason Isaacs just says, like, I don't believe in fairies. And the fairy goes like, Oh, I'm just dead. But then it's like that there's an intimacy. This is what I mean about the like being like kind of sexy. There's an intimacy covering somebody's mouth. Like in being that kind of physical having that physical calories, you know, there is a couple of times. And he's like whispering and she's whispering in his ear and he's whispering her. And like, wow, this is some tween stuff. This is so like this is some teen teen romance stuff that is just like a lot. No, but it's good for the people that grew up with that. That's great. I love it. I love that for you. It's just me for me. I'm like, I let the kids have their crushes. It's fine. Yeah, let it let that happen. I would have loved it. And then in 1953 one, I don't know in the book, all this has happened before. And all this will happen again. I think so. It's easy to get mixed up with this stuff, but I think so. They use that line in Battlestar Galactica over and over, over. And it does. And you think this person or the in the reboot, the with Ronald Seymour's version, and he has said he took it from Peter Pan. He didn't say what version of Peter Pan, but he did say that he took it from that. And it is interesting because in Battlestar Galactica, they're trying to get to earth. Like they're trying, they're traveling to get to somewhere, which may or may not exist, which is kind of like Neverland. But the silons use it over and over. All this has happened before and all this will happen again. I'm watching the 1953 version, which I haven't watched since I was little. And I was like, Battlestar, you know. What interesting line? Because the story lends itself to retelling and different interpretations. And I think that's one reason why there are so many different films. It feels like it feels natural that, hey, the story has been told before. It's going to be told again, but, you know, maybe this is my interpretation of it. This is going to be my version of it. So I really like that. And I'm always kind of interested to see when one story has been turned into a film. So many different times just to see all the variations. And in a way, it becomes something I think greater than the sum of all the films. But together, it becomes like its own little corner of pop culture or something. I mean, or not even pop culture, just culture. It's, you know, there's a cumulative effect of just watching the story interpreted in so many different ways, so many different times. And I think that's powerful. I do too. I, oh, one other thing about somatic thing in Battlestar is that the silons resurrect themselves. They come back. They can die and come back again, right? And I think that's really interesting too. So I think in one of the iterations, we've watched all these and I, there's so many things. I don't know what belongs where sometimes, but somebody says in Neverland, nobody ever dies, basically. And, you know, no one ages and that sort of thing. And somebody says, never is a long time, which is interesting to say about never, because never, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting thing to apply time, like long to something that doesn't have an ending, right? But if you say it's a long time, it implies that it could, you know, in some way. So I think that's interesting too, like the idea of like kind of trying to fit our ideas of time into never or in something that's infinite is fascinating. I mean, it's, again, I think it goes back to that child-like way of seeing the world where, you know, you try to explain like infinity to a kid and they're like, yeah, but what about infinity plus one? You know what I mean? I think like there's that way of seeing things where, yeah, I find, yeah, I find, you know, I like the way you're talking about like looking at different iterations of things and then seeing it's like this own, its own corner of culture or whatever. But yeah, I do that with a lot of things. I like to look at, oh, same thing, you know, different version or even in a song, I'll put a playlist together and it's the same song, but all the different versions I can find, like I have this one and it's just all the versions of that song in different language. I have this one playlist and I've tried to find every language that it's in because there are two really popular versions of it and two different languages in French and in Portuguese. So I was like, oh, I wonder if there's an Italian one and I found it. I found a Swedish one, you know, I'm like, oh, when will I find my Japanese version of this song? Like, that's like my white whale. So it's like, so I love that idea of having to, seeing how something like effects, the same thing effects culture in a different way over and over, you know, over and over again. It's really interesting to look at something like that and see how different people interpret it and different cultures interpret the exact same thing. Yeah, as it tells you, the variations tell you about what separates your time from another time, the themes that resonate tell you what's similar between your time and another time or your culture and another culture. Like, I think it helps you feel unique and it helps you feel connected at the same time. I think that's kind of what's interesting that you can watch a film from 1924 and, you know, you're clapping along with that audience from 100 years ago. You know what I mean? It's powerful. It really is. Yeah. I don't even feel like I have a favorite film version. You know, there's some I've definitely watched more than others, some I like more than others, but it's like, it's interesting to see what works, what doesn't work, what's different from each version to each version, you know, in the way that like that's more interesting to me than saying like, well, this one's clearly the best and all the others are inferior. You know, that kind of like, we've turned to rank them or organize them like that. It's less interesting to me than being able to examine. Yeah, like even the pieces or even the comparisons between them, you know, they're quite nice. It's quite nice to do. And I think you had asked, is it inherently kind of sad? And it is. And even like coming to the end of watching when I watched seven films, I know you did more and watched more, but I watched seven films and I felt like, oh, I ended with Finding Neverland. I didn't watch them in order. I watched them how I felt. I did the same thing. And I was like, what can I do? And I was, I thought to myself, when I watched the silent one, I was concerned I would fall asleep because, you know, it's quieter. It's just music. So, and I just get like silent films are very cozy to me. So I was like, oh, no, I'm gonna fall asleep. But I didn't. It was just like, I was like, this is awesome. And then I did fall asleep at like pan, you know, I had to roll up. You know what I mean? Like, it's interesting, like the one that's like, has no dialogue, like spoken dialogue. And from, yeah, 100 years ago, is, is the one that likely then. Yeah. And I mean, I don't like to rank things. I'm not a rank. If anyone knows me, I have a really hard time. People get really frustrated with me when they're like, well, come on, tell me your blah, blah, blah, your top, blah. And I'm like, no, I don't want to learn. And like, I'll like talk and talk and talk. And I do like a TED talk about all the things they ask me. And they're like, can you just give me top five? And I'm like, Oh, God. Okay, you know, so I'm not good at ranking. But I will say that I can't wait to rewatch the 1924 version. You know, I can't wait to rewatch that. And I, and I really liked ending with finding Neverland. I feel like it was a good way to wrap everything up, you know, to look at something that I mean, it's not very accurate. But look at the man and look at his intention. Some of his personal writing is like so devastating. Like, like talking about Sylvia well and Davies after she died, and he was looking after her boys, like the Kate Winslet, who she plays his personal writing after a couple of years, he's like, Oh, the boys are like growing up quite a lot. I wonder if her ghost came back, would she even recognize them? And I feel like that's such a Peter Pan kind of sentiment, but it's like, Oh my God, it's like one of the saddest things I've read. You know, but at the same time, like the, you know, there's so much fun to these stories, you know, that youthful imagination. I think like that's part of the, part of the magic is it's not just sad. It's, it's bittersweet. There's so much extend and like that 1924 version, which is like, that's why I am Napoleon and strictly pose. It's like hilarious. In these movies that are just fun and funny. And I think like, but there you know, that keeps you coming back. And then like the sadness kind of keeps it feeling meaningful. Yeah, there's a moment in Hook. And it's with Phil Collins, because Phil Collins plays a cop, like the type of in it. I love that woman. But it's, but I feel like it's kind of like a quick throwaway line. People are always like, I think people are so distracted that it's Phil Collins, you know, that he says, I can't remember who asked him. Yeah, one does. Yeah, one does, he says. And it's so poignant. And then he's just gone. You know, it's like, okay. And I just love that. And it is very Peter Pan. I also love and find and never land. I'm such a sucker because I got so emotional when afterwards they're like, Oh, it's Peter Pan. It's Peter Pan at the play. And then he's, he looks, Peter looks so frustrated. Pretty high more. And he says, but I'm not Peter Pan. And you think he's kind of like annoyed, yeah, because he doesn't want to be related. But he says, he is any, and he's pointing at J. And Barry has done that. And I got, I get so emotional. I think the real Peter Loewell and Davies did get pretty annoyed at people saying, Oh, you're the real Peter Pan. Yeah, I think I like the way it's played in that moment, because yeah, you could totally interpret it as that. And it probably is true. But I also like how there's that switch at the end. He doesn't just say, I'm not Peter Pan in the way. So it's, it's him, you know, which is like the idea that is some, you know, that maybe J. And Barry himself. I'm getting emotional, didn't want to grow up. Yeah. In a lot of ways, it seems like he's somebody who lost his childhood and, you know, was trying to make up for that as an adult, but also his writing to when he talks about like, yeah, you would think playing with these kids would make me feel more like a kid, but it doesn't, it makes me feel like older than ever. So, you know, I can also feel that too, like, you know, maybe he's Peter Pan, but he's, or well, maybe he's Captain Hook chasing out Peter Pan. Well, he's maybe, but he's maybe both, because his name is James and his James Hook. Yeah. So like, I mean, come on, it's a little note, like on the nose there. But I think it's Ian Forrester. I don't remember the exact thing that he said, but he said that he like, he wrote only like a few characters and one of the characters would be himself, you know what I mean? And like, people that he admired, you know, people that were like antagonistic towards him. Like, he had like four things. I think four kinds of people he would write and they were all connected to him and in some way. And so yeah, I guess that's what J.M. Barry was doing too. I mean, I think like a lot of writers, artists, people talk about self-insert characters, but I think, you know, you can see facets of somebody's personality in a lot of their characters, you know, that that's, they're all part of the complex emotional makeup that consists of a human being because we can have more emotions than Barry's. I don't know. I like that. That's a good way to rub it out because we can have more emotions than Barry's. I like that. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about this topic. Work and folks find you online. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter as nostalgia file. Velt the way it sounds with with a PH. I-L-E. Yeah, Instagram, Twitter. I run a program here in a film program here in Toronto at review cinema called Peyton Sweat. And it's kind of a celebration in Sweat and competition sports themed program. Yeah, so you can find Peyton Sweat on Twitter and Instagram because that's if you want to kind of stay in that problem too. Sounds good. And as per Smee, I'm on Twitter at BoBakessler. I guess I'm on Instagram too, but I'm not there as often. But until next time, listeners, take care. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]