You really want to burn your body fat, get these horrible seed oils out of your diet, eat whole food-based proteins, not those powders, and a bunch of other stuff. Even folks who are warning that these oils are toxic are underestimating the extent of the problem, not just the toxicity that develops in the seed, but then the subsequent metabolic alterations in every cell in our body that occur as our cells struggle to adapt to the constant onslaught of toxic material. And do you want to, you know, guess how that makes somebody feel if you got that kind of fat going on around all of your intestinal tract and your intestinal organs? I mean, I would have to think that that's contributing to some of the chronic digestive problems people experience, you know, the bloating, the discomfort after eating. All right, good morning and welcome. We have with us today, Dr. Kate Shanahan, who I'm very pleased to chat with again. It's been a couple years since we chatted less and she's got a new book out called Dark Calories, which is coming out. Correct me if I'm wrong, Kate. It's June 11th. Yeah, there you go. There's a nice picture of it there. And so for those that aren't familiar with you, and there may be some that aren't, please tell us a little bit about your background. I'm a family physician and I've got about 22 years of clinical experience under my belt. About probably almost 20 of that now has occurred after my great awakening, which took place over about about 20 years ago now. And during that time, I realized that everything I learned in medical school about nutrition, just about was completely backwards. So I was in Hawaii at the time and it completely revolutionized the way I practiced. I learned a lot from my patients because they grew up Hawaii, Hawaii, where I was pretty much without electricity. So people were mostly food self-sufficient and it gave me this window into the food ways of the past, how people used to feed themselves and maybe more pertinent to this discussion is how incredibly healthy people were when they didn't grow up on the processed foods, particularly the seed oils. And they did respect tradition, specifically, they were not afraid of cholesterol raising foods. They had what you would consider it, human diet. And so I wrote my first book, Eat Nutrition, and that got a lot of attention by the Los Angeles Lakers, Gary Vidi, and his head trainer, Reddit, and so they actually brought me on board the training staff of the Los Angeles Lakers, where I worked with them until the team that I was working with retired, so that was six years. And we completely revised their whole dietary regimen. We helped them understand that athletes do not do that great feeling exclusively with sugar. You really want to burn your body fat, get these horrible seed oils out of your diet, eat whole food-based proteins, not those powders, and a bunch of other stuff that the principles of nutritional, I'm sorry, of an ancestral diet, which I talked about in my first book, Eat Nutrition. And since then, though, realized when I first wrote it, I wasn't sure whether a new vegetable oil and sugar were both bad and refined flowers to being empty calories, but I wasn't sure which was worse. And since then, I've really learned a lot more about the toxicity of vegetable oil. So that's why there's more in the book dark calories than what was in my other books. Question for you. I know this is totally an aside, but were there a ton of little chickens running around? You live in koala? Like last time I was there, I just remember all the chickens everywhere. Was that the deal back then? Yep, absolutely. Yeah, they got let loose in a hurricane in 1991. Before that, there were no chickens loose on the island. Those were fighting chickens as nobody knew how to cook them properly, hardly anybody did. So even though it was free food, nobody took advantage of it, at least back when I was there. Yeah, I heard some people say they're they're they're lean chickens or stringing or something like that. But let's see, when you think about what is I often think like a donut as the absolute worst kind of combo of every because refined grain sugar, it's usually fried in God knows what, you know, and I'm sure we'll get into that. But let me talk, let me ask you about this, because obviously there's a lot of sort of, you know, a lot of people talking about the harms of vegetable oil, seed oil, it's industrial lubricant. We haven't been eating it at long. Clearly it's not been in the humid diet for more than say maybe what Eli Whitney and his cotton gym, we first started pressing cotton seed oil and then we started turning that into food in the late 1800s sometime. Why? There are people that will say as that it's hard healthy, it lowers your LDL cholesterol, studies it show replacing pine, saturated fat with saturated fat, saturated fat leads to lower LDL cholesterol, which is the holy grail of health. Obviously if we lower cholesterol, all things get better around saying that obviously with some level of sarcasm there. But why do you feel that these things are uniquely problematic for you for us? Yeah, these oils, even folks who are warning that these oils are toxic are underestimating the extent of the problem, because the chemistry of the whole scenario is complicated, not just the toxicity that develops in the seed, but then the subsequent metabolic alterations in every cell in our body that occur as our cells struggle to adapt to the constant onslaught of toxic material from our diet, the inflammation that they cause, and then the crazy reformulation of our body fat. So there's a lot that happens and I think that's why people have not even really come to grips with all of it. There's no book other than dark calories that put all of it together. It took me doing, I'm not going to say nothing but this for 20 years, but really focusing very heavily on sorting all this out for 20 years to put it together. So it's just not out there yet. And that's why people downplay how toxic they are. That's partly why, because it just hasn't been said yet. And maybe I will say some of that on this show, I hope. Yeah, I'd love to get into it. One of the things that I've been aware of, and I mean, all meat diets, I don't really eat that stuff at all. And it hasn't harmed me in any way, not including canola oil in my diet or whatever, soybean oil. One of the things that's out that've been known for a while is, as you mentioned, the reformulation of our human body fat. There's biopsies that go back from like 1960s where you could look at the different makeup of fat and what it is compared to maybe today. And one thing I noticed as a surgeon, I would operate on people. And sometimes I would notice their fat was different. Some people had weird fat. It was like, it was, some was like yellow and fluffy and some was white and crumbly. I don't know what the hell was going on. I didn't, I just noticed it was a certain, it's not what something I would really think about. But I just noticed, I was like, when I'm cutting through these people, their fat tissue quality was different. And I wonder, in retrospectively, if that had something to do with it. So what's going on with our human fat? Why, what's been changing with that? Yeah, about 2000 stuff in Guyana put together a really interesting blog that later became a published peer reviewed article that showed that as we've been consuming more polyunsaturate, more vegetable oils, because the vegetable oils are high and polyunsaturated fatty acids, our body fat composition has increased in parallel. And that's for the, why is that? Oops, sorry. For the simple reason that we can't eliminate these polyunsaturated fatty acids, like we can other toxins, the liver eliminates, a healthy liver will eliminate glyphosate, it will eliminate a lot of the preservatives and nasty stuff that is in our food. But it cannot eliminate fatty acids because fatty acids are nutrients, it identifies them as nutrients. And so they get packaged and shipped and delivered to the storage unit of our body, which is our body fat. So the only way we can lose it is to burn it off, just like every other form, and just like regular body fat, right? All those calories in there, we got to burn them one at a time, and in order to lose the polyunsaturate. So it will just simply mirror what's in our diet. Now, your question is, how does that change the consistency of our body fat? So you describe two discrete changes. And I think, I know we have an answer for one, and I think we have the answer for the other. Farmers have noticed for a long time that when pigs get more polyunsaturated fats from their feed, like soy feed, which can be high in polyunsaturates, a lot of times they fortify with oils specifically. So what that does to the animal fat is it becomes softer. It becomes harder to, what they turn, they use this machine because it's mushy instead of having a clean slice of a blade going through it and turning it into nice discrete, steeped strips of bacon. Some of the animals were unusable, so they had to pull back on how much polyunsaturates were in their diet, and that would, in parallel, make the fat firmer again. And that's just related to the fact that polyunsaturates are liquid. The polyunsaturated oils are oily because the unsaturated fatty acids are more flimsy and bendable as opposed to saturated fat in things like butter. Saturated fats are stiff. That's why butter is solid at room temperature. So these chemical properties have visible, we can see the differences. And so one of the things, if they're, or noticing that the fat was more just like soft or less invested with connective tissue or just seemed floppier, other people have made that observation. And I actually have a study in there where somebody did make that observation and it was published. So that's one thing, that's the softness. But what about that crumbliness or probably the term in your dictation report was friable. And to use that word, yeah, it just means it falls apart. I think that might be due to the fact that the diet of vegetable oils, what it does to our bodies is deplete antioxidants. When you deplete antioxidants in our bodies, any kind of inflammatory reaction that's going to get kicked up or stirred up, it's very hard to calm it down. And sometimes you just get spontaneous inflammation. Inflammation draws white blood cells, white blood cells create necrosis. So they just create a mess. They create like watery fat. And so this also has been studied that inflammatory, basically, some people have inflammatory fat. Usually it's their visceral fat, the fat around the intestinal tract. And when they look at the cellular makeup of that, they see that it has it sometimes as much as 50% of it is white blood cells, which are not fat cells, they're immune system cells. In other words, it's crawling with infection fighting cells as if it's an infected organ. And it's really different from normal body fat. And do you want to guess how that makes somebody feel if you got that kind of fat going on around all of your intestinal tract and your intestinal organs, I would have to think that's contributing to some of the chronic digestive problems people experience, the bloating, the discomfort after eating. And that's a big, that's a big complaint that people have that goes away when they avoid these oils. And I know it goes away on a carnivore diet because mostly carnivore diets avoid the oils. You can still get, like when you go out to eat, if you have, let's say you just go to, you'll still be getting seed oils if you go to, for example, at Chipotle, and you order their carne asada. They cook that in sunflower oil or some highly polly and saturated. One of the members of what I call the hate plate that you don't want. And carne asada is shredded. So there's a lot of surface area there for oil to work, worm its way in, and it will. And so you'll be getting 10, maybe 20% of your calories from the seed oil. So you still have to be careful, even on carnivore diet. It's not as bad as the absorbance that you get in french fries and the starchy foods and the breaded and batter fried foods, or even around vegetables. You go to a restaurant and you get spinach or any kind of leafy green. Those greens are also individually coated with a layer of oil because they use the cheap oils now instead of butter or quality oils to cook vegetables as often as they can, as they can get away with that. So even if you are, say you're not strict carnivore, but you are keto, you are still getting a lot of these things when you go out to eat at any restaurant. Yeah. I really got to eat these days. I have one that's cheaper for me to cook at home, and I feel I do a better job. Let me ask another question around fat, maybe quality and composition. Do you think this plays a role in the development of cellulite? That's an interesting topic because I'm just wondering when cellulite, I don't know. We don't really have good pictures from the 1700s of women's legs or usually women is usually where we see it. Do you think that has a role in that because it changes the quality of the fat? We do know that here's what we know about cellulite, and what about this in deep nutrition? We know that it is invested with less connective tissue. Normally, the deeper subcutaneous fat has three layers of connective tissue going through it, and lots of little struts in between that to just support it so everything stays firm and it doesn't start to sag. But when people have cellulite, when they look at cellulite under a microscope, they see that instead of three layers of connective tissue going in one direction, it's only got two, and there's just fewer of those struts in between, and what they have is tends to be flimsier, and so the fat itself is less organized in there. There's little blobs of thumbs of fat that kind of poof out sort of the way a old balloon after a party wrinkles up and has funny lumps. So that's happening because of the connective tissue problem. Now, is that related to seed oils? It certainly could be because through the downstream effects of inflammation, the development of correct layers of connective tissue everywhere in our body, not just our cellulite, not just our body fat, requires a lot of hormones and inflammation will get in the way of that and seed oils driving inflammation. But the other thing is just lack of nutrition. One of the things I wrote about in deep nutrition and that I bring back again in dark calories is that we don't do bone broth, and bone broth, most Americans, bone broth contains special nutrients that as it turns out, have hormone-like effects to the development of our connective tissue. And so as children used to be weaned basically on bone broth, and certainly throughout their development in utero, they would have been exposed to compounds from bone broth and just basically have all the building blocks for collagen. Collagen is the most abundant protein in the body, and we just have to really have a very proper human diet in order to be able to build enough. And so I totally believe it has a lot to do with the cellulite. Babies now, newborns, maybe you don't. I don't know if you operate on little babies. I was seeing children in their well child checks, four months old who already had cellulite, and they weren't overweight. They were normal weight for a baby. Instead of having that nice plump, juicy, deliciously smooth body fat that babies have, it was sadder. It was lumpy, and soft, and it's just so tragic because I know that child will also have joint problems prematurely, maybe even aneurysms. Connective tissue defects lead to all of those problems. Let me just develop this joint problem. I gave a lecture recently in South Carolina that the Strength Coaches Association talking about aging joints, and one of the major differences between a young and an older joint is the development of these advanced glycation end products. The things that lead to that hyperglycemia, the pile pathway, which results in fructose. But the other thing is lipid peroxidation. And I suspect, and correct me if I'm wrong, but lipid peroxidation is probably enhanced by the consumption of these seed-alls. Is that fair to say? What are your thoughts on that? Yes. So lipid peroxidation is not just enhanced. It's like the root cause of lipid peroxidation for most people who don't smoke is probably 90% vegetable seed oils in their diet. And just to quantify, like 30% of the average person's daily calories are coming from vegetable seed oils and 80% of their fat calories. And they contain toxins, and they do something very terrible to our cells. And that is they promote oxidative stress. Oxidative stress is what's responsible for lipid oxidation. Glycation doesn't cause lipid oxidation, but lipid oxidation does accelerate glycation. So that's why I say that the seed oils are the main driver of everything bad in the food supply. And they are literally, I think, what puts the junk in junk food. And they're the reason processed foods are bad. And it all ties to, you touch on a lipid oxidation. What does that come from? Oxidate. So if we understand oxidation and what drives oxidation, then we can understand most of the diseases that I face as a primary care doctor, that you see as a surgeon, I think it's essential to understand how oxidation drives these diseases. Because once we understand that it is the driver, the primary driver of pretty much every disease studied, including diseases that also have glycation. But if you drill down into a deeper more oxidation and vegetable oils contain toxins that will oxidize our membranes. They will oxidize lipids in our membranes. That's lipid oxidation. When that happens, you activate inflammatory enzymes. What do those enzymes do to your joints? They chew up the collagen. Like the metallic proteinases, those are activated by oxidative stress. They're not activated by glycation. Glycation will accelerate the aging process of collagen, but it will not do quite as many terrible bad things as oxidation will. And correct me if I'm well on saturated fat hat, they're double bonds. Are those resistant to oxidation as opposed to the single bonds that will see you on saturated fat? Is that a first statement? I don't know if you got that backwards the way, but you got it backwards. So you probably know what you meant to say to set it backwards. So the double bonds are the weak bonds. And saturated fats have no double bonds. Okay. So that's why they're stiff. So the saturated bonds will make a molecule that is straight and stiff and very durable, basically totally resistant, almost totally resistant to the kind of oxidation that can occur at most temperatures that we cook our food and in our bodies. So saturated fats are like natural antioxidants. They resist lipid oxidation. If lipid oxidation is occurring in a cell membrane and it bumps into a saturated fat, it can stop that chain reaction in its tracks. So it's that that's very important, especially in our food, that the if it's a chain reactions are occurring in a frying pan or in the skin of a chicken or whatever we're eating, whatever we plant eat, the saturated fats in there will stop those chain reactions. And that stops toxins from forming. The you'd mentioned like 30% of our cast like 700, 800 calories a day, people are getting from vegetable oils of some sort, which is more than you get from beef. I know that I've seen the comparisons where people actually get more calories from soybean oil than they do from beef these days, which is really interesting to see. And it correct me if I'm wrong, but almost without exception, almost every processed food that's out there contains some combination, these products. Is that fair to say? Everything that's not just like pure sugar. Yeah, just about most like soda, lollipops won't have them, but they're essential to the processed food industry. And that's partly why we see so much pushback on the idea that they can be unhealthy, because there's corrupted relationships within certain very powerful medical organizations and the processed food industry. That corruption there is leading to the continued pushback from the kind of work that I'm doing and others are doing to try and get the word out that these oils are the main driver of disease, not saturated fat, not cholesterol, not genetics, not laziness, not like a willpower. It's these oils because of the fact that they drive oxidation and oxidation is what eventually kills us. Oxidation is the cause, the root cause of disease at the cellular level. Yeah, I'm sure you're familiar. It goes back to Proctor and Gamble, lobbying the American Heart Association back in the 1920s for Crisco and giving them whatever a million dollars back then. And that's the start of it, or maybe it started before, I don't know, but certainly has become everywhere. What is, I'm just from a cost stamp, but maybe you're aware of this, maybe you're not. I want to talk about that relationship, because in dark colors, I tell the story of this relationship. And that that is the biggest scandal ever perpetrated on the American public by a medical organization. And it's a scandal that's affected every American, because it's changed what every doctor learns about diet. And it changed what every one of us eats for the worse. And it did, it happened about 70 years ago. And the key point of this scandal is that the American Heart Association took money from Proctor and Gamble in 1948. And Proctor and Gamble sold soy oil and cottonseed oil and products made with them. And after the American Heart Association took that money, which was $1.75 million, that's 30 million today, the Doctors at the American Heart Association did something completely unethical. They started promoting vegetable oils like soy and cottonseed as a way to prevent heart attacks. Now that claim at the time, it was completely unfounded. So that was an outright lie, but it gets worse because of what the AHA did with that money. So they spent the next few decades fabricating a huge pile of evidence to support this heart healthy clean. And this is where the myth about cholesterol comes from. This is where the myth about saturated fat comes from. But the truth is that these oils are not heart healthy. And in fact, quite a number of scientists say that they actually promote heart attacks. So it's really the worst thing that ever happened to the human race, in my opinion, because we have billions of people now who are sickened and billions of people who have died because of this myth that polyunsaturated fats are healthy because they lower cholesterol. Their lowering cholesterol is actually a sign of their toxicity, according to the toxicologists that I interviewed for the book. Would you mind elaborating like that? That's interesting to me. So why would them be lowering LDL cholesterol, which is supposed to be great, actually be damaging us? What is the mechanism behind that? I'm so glad you asked. So it has to do with oxidation because everything bad has to do with oxidation to some degree, in a lot of cases, to a great degree. And here, yes, to a great degree. Glycation also plays a role. But oxidation, let's talk about that. So what happens is your lipid carrying particles, including LDL, HDL, VLDL, when you've had a lot of polyunsaturated seed oils in your diet, the toxicity of it promotes oxidative stress, depleting your antioxidants. You need antioxidants to prevent those lipid proteins from oxidizing. When they oxidize, they don't work anymore. And what happens is the protein part of the lipid protein is no longer able to do its job. And when it comes to those LDL particles, the protein, the APOB, being oxidized means that cells who are trying to draw that lipid protein inside of them for the nutrients that lipoprotein contains do not recognize it, because those proteins are the little flag on the surface of the lipid protein that indicates what the heck it is. Cells don't know, right? They have to have they know what it is because it fits into their LDL receptor. When it's oxidized, it does not fit into the LDL receptor. They have no way of absorbing it. This can raise cholesterol levels, LDL cholesterol, sometimes. Maybe that's why we sometimes see associations with LDL and heart attacks. But it can also lower it because the oxidized lipid protein will get absorbed by it's called the scavenger receptor, meaning it will be taken out of circulation by white blood cells. So it can also lower the cholesterol levels. And it also just may not be functional so that the liver will not be able to pick it up either. So you'll have a whole bunch of small dense LDL particles that don't have a lot of cholesterol in them. But they're just little nubs of burnt protein, of burnt APOB. That's what LDL, small dense LDL is basically has a little very little cholesterol in it. It's mostly oxidized fats and oxidized proteins. That's what it is. So that's why a lot of researchers have said that the vegetable oils, the way that they, the fact that they lower cholesterol, means that they're oxidizing the lipoprotein particles and that oxidized lipoprotein particles are the root cause of atherosclerosis. And I think even cardiologists would agree with that statement. It's the oxidized LDL, not the healthy LDL. So if you're doing something that oxidizes your LDL, you're going to increase your risk of heart attacks. That's why smoking increases the risk of heart attacks. Does smoking raise your LDL? I don't think so. We don't have a lot of evidence of that. Does it lower it? Certainly lowers your HDL. Let me ask you just some, I would assume, and correct me for a while, a couple of diseases, dementia, autoimmune disease, cancer. I think those are three very important topics. Does polyinsaturated seed oils have a role in development of any of those diseases in your view? Yes. They have a role in the development of those diseases because those diseases are diseases that involve oxidative stress, inflammation, and oxidized lipid membranes, dysfunctional mitochondria, everything that is a hallmark of oxidative stress. Yes. Medicine has just done a really bad job, Dr. Baker, of identifying root causes. This is why, I'm going to talk about this for a second because I had a problem as a doctor because I hated managing risk factors with medications. I found that really depressing. I don't know if you can relate to this feeling of uselessness before you learned what a real healthy diet can do, but we graduate from medical school calling most important diseases pathic, basically. What does idiopathic means? I don't know. An idiot, I don't know. I didn't want to say it. Yes. That's certainly instead of getting to the root cause, we manage risk factors. As a primary care doctor, I'm supposed to medicate people for high blood pressure, high blood sugar, high blood cholesterol, and all these things I'm supposed to put people on drugs to lose weight now. It's not going to say that it's on purpose that doctors don't learn that the root cause is oxidative stress. I am going to say that if they did, we would have a much more meaningful career. We would be using a lot fewer drugs. Our patients would be a lot healthier, and there wouldn't be these long lines to get in to see a new doctor, because so few people would be sick. Let me ask you, because you mentioned, obviously, we accumulate our fat cells as a primary storage place for lipid, but lipids also are involved. Every cell membrane in our body has lipids. We've got this lipid bilayer. Do these seed oils get incorporated into those membranes as well? Are we seeing that our muscle cells and our vitamins every cell in our body? The lipid bilayer of most of our cells is highly regulated. The excess polyunsaturates from our diets don't really affect that as much as they affect the concentration of our adipose. Like I said, they reformulate our adipose hugely. Just to put that in perspective, the polyunsaturated fatty acid content of a lipid bilayer is somewhere around 30 to 40%. No matter how many seed oils. Some people get off track here because they focus on the omega-6 seed oil linoleic acid. Yes, there will be more linoleic acid relative to the omega-3 because of seed oils. Does that drive more oxidative stress and inflammation? It doesn't seem to, and that's been tested. That's one of the flaws in this argument that so many people are making now. The problem is not oxidative stress. The problem, many people who are warning about seed oils say it's linoleic acid in omega-6. That isn't correct. I don't want people saying any more, "Please, if you hear anyone, please tell them no, that's not correct," because it's oxidation that's the problem. Omega-3 is actually more susceptible to oxidation because there's more little bonds, but the problem with this being out there where people are focusing on a omega-6 is that since it's not true or there's not very much evidence for it, it makes it easy for the powers who want to sell us more vegetable oils, the medical authorities that say they're heart-healthy, to shut it down and to say that people like me don't know what we're talking about, but that's not what I'm saying. I don't want to hear anyone else saying it, so do what you can. Just stop it. Please. I've heard a lot of people talking about linoleic acid for sure that's been around for quite a while now. Let me ask you a question. It's wrong. It's so important that we understand the reason these things are bad, and it's one thing to know they're bad. I'm sorry to cut you off, but this is so important. It's one thing to know that they're bad and avoid them, but when the whole world is trying to shove these things down our throats, including the doctors who write guidelines, we have to know why they're bad. That's why I think our calories is going to change the conversation if enough people read it. Very good. Assessing, if I wanted to assess in my body how much damage these oils have caused me, is there a reliable test that could say you're, I don't know, 50% contaminated by COVID? Is there a way to assess that the average person can do a blood test or maybe a biopsy? I guess a biopsy would be the best, but how would you do that? Yeah, so so many things in medicine. There's not one single test that will tell you the answer, just to give you an analogy so you understand what I'm talking about. Hopefully the audience will follow on. There isn't a single test for inflammation either. We can do CRP. We can do something called a set rate. We can do glutathione levels. We can do homocysteine levels. There isn't a single test, right? So you have to triangulate. And so that's what I do when I'm working with folks. And one of the, so I use all the standard tests, all the standard biomarkers that doctors are screening for anyway, because like I said, the root cause of all diseases oxidative stress. And the problem with medical science is that by focusing on the risk factors, we've overlooked the fact that the risk factors themselves are caused by oxidative stress. So what does that mean? It means if you have high blood pressure, that's a sign your body is somewhat overwhelmed by oxidative stress. If you also have type 2 diabetes or pre-diabetes, or even insulin resistance, high blood sugars, those are signs of oxidative stress. If you have elevated liver enzymes, if you have fatty liver, that's a sign of oxidative stress. So on and on, it goes. You get the idea, right? So high homocysteine levels, elevated uric acid. There's a lot of buzz about uric acid. You got to avoid oxalates. I think that's nonsense, frankly. Once people have already developed kidney stones, maybe it's important to avoid oxalate. But as Dr. Berry, he says, that's just a bunch of lies. And I would agree with him. I think oxalates in our diet are not the problem. I think you can, if you are not carnivore, and you want to enjoy spinach or whatever vegetable, it's not going to build up kidney stones. High uric acid and problems processing oxalates are due to oxidative stress in the kidney, and that's disrupting the function of the kidney. Also, being chronically and never water drinker. So that also promotes kidney stones. But anyway, I'm going a little rabbit hole there, sorry. But yeah, so pretty much any biomarker for anything is also a biomarker of oxidative stress. And the more that you have, probably the more oxidative stress you've been subjected to. So if these seed holes are accumulating in our subcutaneous fat, I assume our visceral fat as well, where we deposit fat, the way to get rid of is just basically get rid of body fat. Is it a first in last out type of situation where the longer it's been, the longer it takes to get out, or is there any way to know that? So yeah, we know that with normal body fat composition, meaning pretty low poofa, because the studies were done in the 40s and 50s on atomic bomb background radiation, that it takes about four to five years to have a complete turnover of the fatty acid molecules stored in your body fat. They didn't differentiate between types, what is a saturated fat is stiffer. Maybe it stays there longer. The polyunsaturates are more liquidy. Maybe they are released first. There's reason to believe that. So I think the turnover for that would be faster, probably. But on the other hand, those studies that say four to five years were done in normal weight people. You would probably be right to assume that if you have a lot more body fat, it's going to take longer. But I want to point out though, Sean, that does not mean that you have to wait that long before you're going to see major metabolic improvements. Your clientele sees major metabolic improvements very quickly, and they still have probably plenty. Even if you've been on the carnivore diet for six months and you've seen drastic improvements, you still have plenty of the unsaturates. But what you've done in the meantime is you've bolstered your body's ability to handle oxidative stress. What I mentioned earlier, and now I want to bring it up again, is that these oils are not bad just because of their toxicity, their direct toxicity. It's because they deplete our body's antioxidant systems. When you stop eating them and you follow a super healthy diet, like a carnivore diet, then you start replenishing those depleted systems and you can better handle the excess polyunsaturated fat. That's why inflammation clears up because you're handling the oxidative stress. Obviously, there are other things that drive oxidative stress in the body. I think breathing for instance causes some level of oxidative stress, exercise, and exercises. Some of these things are, I'm just trying to distinguish between because there's like normal stressful things and excessive things. In the category, it's just excessive because of the concentrations in the amount. I don't know if this can be comparable. If I go and run a mile versus eat a salad with canola oil on it, is there a huge difference number-wise in that? Absolutely. The vastly different issues. The fact is, I just said we have a whole ton of antioxidants. We've got antioxidant enzymes galore, we've got antioxidant compounds like vitamin E all over our cell membranes. We've got them in our blood supply. We've got them in our lipoproteins and antioxidants everywhere. Why? Because oxygen would kill us very quickly if we did not. If we zapped out all the antioxidants from our body, we would just die in seconds because we wouldn't be able to generate energy and every cell would die. Antioxidants keep us from dying of oxygen toxicity. Now, we have to ask the question of what are the things that create oxidative stress? Maybe I should define oxidative stress as a redox imbalance. It's not just generating energy and the normal free radical scenario that happens when you exercise. Anytime you generate energy, you will create more free radicals. But when you're healthy, you've got all these antioxidants that will trap those free radicals before they do any damage. This is something that I pointed out when I was working with the Los Angeles Lakers, not these terms, but that's why getting off seed oils and getting a healthy diet that controls oxidative stress dramatically reduces recovery time because it dramatically reduces the inflammation caused by exercise. One of the things that always bugged me out there was this idea of hormesis. Exercise is good for you because even though it breaks down your cells, it causes hormesis and the little stress is good. I don't think that's quite correct because remember, we're studying people who are exercising on a diet of seed oils. We're studying people who are prone to excessive amounts of inflammation induced by exercise. We're not studying normal healthy people anymore. I would say probably for the past 50 years, we have not had enough normal healthy people for any of our studies on inflammation and what causes it exercise-wise to be accurate because it's all exaggerated by the fact that even 50 years ago, our body fat adipose was abnormally high. It was probably around 10% 50 years ago. Now it's around 30% on average. There's going to be individual variability, obviously, but historically, it was probably less than 5%. And certainly historically, we didn't also have oxidative stress from empty calorie carbohydrates and empty calorie sugar. There's two things. I break it down this way. And I break it down in the book so that we can really understand the root cause of oxidative stress. Because like I said, it's something that is the thing to understand with health. And you can't understand anything. You can't have a serious conversation about health until you understand oxidative stress. There's two things that cause it toxicity and nutrient deficiency. So toxicity can come from vegetable oils, it can come from other toxins, lead, it can come from smoking, it can come from stressful life. If you don't sleep, that's a kind of toxicity because your body needs to clear out, do some work overnight. And being unable to do that work overnight increases oxidative stress in your body. This has been tested. So that's the role of toxins. The role of nutrient deficiency is as follows. We need those nutrients to fight oxidation, because it's always there to kill us. Like I said, if we didn't have any of these antioxidants, we would die in seconds. So we need lots of nutrients to create all of the enzymes and co-factors and have the vitamins in our diet and have the vitamins therefore in our body that are necessary to fight oxidative stress. So if you look at it that way, oh, sorry, let me just ask a question on you because there are this belief that we can consume antioxidants and that's going to provide this or is it the endogenous antioxidants that are really the deal that we need to be mindful of? It's only the endogenous antioxidants exclusively except for vitamins and minerals and things our bodies need from our diet to manufacture those endogenous enzymes and give them their functionality. Right? A lot of like magnesium is a co-factor for enzymes, antioxidant enzymes to work properly. So the idea that vegetables produce antioxidants, like most of these are antioxidants supplements are coming from plants. And the idea that plants produce antioxidants that we need is erroneous. Why would they do that? Plants produce antioxidants that plants need, which mostly involves production protection from UV light. So very different needs there. Now, it's not to say that antioxidants are useless because they do protect our food from oxidation and they may protect our gut somewhat because they're as before they're broken down by our digestive system and digested, they're still capable of having some antioxidant effect probably in our gut. But the idea that they get into our bodies is absurd. And that's why there's a new antioxidant every few months, right? Remember Resveritrol? That was supposed to save everybody's lives, right? That was supposed to be the reason that white red wine caused longevity or whatever. And that was like 8,000 times the amount of Resveritrol in a capsule as red wine. How come we're not all better than if that was so useful, right? Every single time another one comes out, there's so much marketing behind it. People buy it, the companies make tons of money, and they're the only ones who win. Yeah, so when we see, when we go to the grocery store and we look at the botanuses loaded with antioxidants, we can just laugh at that, I would assume, correct? Yeah, especially if it's on a box of processed food that you're not going to do really anything for you. Is there something you mentioned smoking? I assume alcohol is probably not particularly beneficial either, but is there any other things that either mitigate or enhance the deleterious effects of these oils? Yes, in terms of heating is something to know about. It's time and temperature, right? Time and temperature, just like a burn on your skin or a sunburn. The longer you're in the sun, the worse it is. So the more these oils are heated and the higher heat they're exposed to, the more they deteriorate into serious toxins. And those toxins will then get into your body. And what do they do? They act like catalysts and go ahead and turn around and damage more polyunsaturated fatty acids. And even before they get into your body, they can do that. So once you've developed a little bit of toxicity, you heat it again as in reheating, you're getting more toxicity, like a lot more. Yeah, so if you go to a place like the continually reheat their french fries over and over getting the same oil, that's like disaster essential, I would assume, right? Yeah, that is a disaster city, exactly. And there's a doctor or Martin Groupfeld who published a paper showing comparing head-to-head the toxicity of french fries versus cigarettes. And he says it's a one-to-one comparison in terms of the toxins called alpha beta unsaturated aldehydes that are responsible for the toxicity of both cigarettes and french fries. Another thing that I hear a lot, Sean, is from patients who think they got a stomach bug after eating old pizza or leftover takeout fries or leftover takeout anything that was deep fried. Here's what I think is going on is that stuff sat in the fridge and as it did, it was slowly oxidizing. And then they microwaved it, which accelerates the oxidation process because of the heat and the direct radiation, which is causing free radicals in the oils, just like it causes free radicals and styrofoam. So you're just getting a cascading effect of massive amount of more toxicity in that already not-so-great pizza or fried food. And it's so much so that your stomach has a violent reaction or it's destroying your gut flora and giving you diarrhea. You feel like you had food poisoning, but I don't think that's likely to be the case as likely as it is that it's just a direct toxic effect because if the food is poisonous now, why wasn't it poisonous the first time? It's the food poisoning is not bacteria. It's toxins that were pre-formed toxins. So it's not like something's alive on there. That kind of food poisoning that's cleared up in 24 hours, which is what people get, right? There's different types of food poisoning, but not to confuse the issue. But this is a toxicity type of food poisoning that people experience. And I think it's just don't eat your leftover pizza if you're going to just eat it cold and don't eat it up. I've seen a trend, and again, it's very small in scopes so far. But some restaurants are now adopting tallow-based preparation like they used to back in the day, maybe large. Maybe there's zero acres, which I think you do with them and not mistaken. What's going on in that realm? Well, because deep-fryer food is continuously heated at such high temperatures, the worst of the worst toxic foods come out of a deep fryer. And so if you can at least upgrade the fat there, less likely to oxidize like tallow, because it's more saturated, or like the zero acres, because even it's not as good as tallow would be, but it's not polyunsaturated at least. It's monolith saturated. So it's going to be a little bit less toxic. But deep-frying, frankly, is not a great... It's never going to be really good for you. Because the restaurants are... If you do it at home, it's one thing. You've got to throw out the oil after two or three uses, period. It's no oil can sustain. What happens is just gross things get out of the food into the oil, and then it's just, at that point, the things from your food start becoming toxins, and it's just a no-good scenario. You have to throw it out. How would someone who is toxified, I guess, would be a good word. Their redox is all messed up because all these seedles. How do they fix it? Because I know that's part of that. Because everybody wants... What do I do about it? It's fun to be scared about everything, but how the hell do I fix it? So any basic thoughts on obviously changing the diet. Is there anything else or what are your thoughts? Yeah, so a third of the book, Dark Calories, is devoted to helping people get their metabolism back on track and feeling better, starting from day one, really. Because I teach you how to build a meal, one meal at a time, you're going to start energizing yourselves with fuels that your mitochondria can use more effectively, and that is going to reduce a ton of oxidative stress. Because forcing our little mitochondria to burn polyinsaturates just turns them into little toxin-generating machines, and it has profound effects that lead to a metabolic condition that is a whole other topic to talk about, called insulin resistance. It makes you sell sugar addicts. So I help people walk their way out of this trap. Basically, seed oils drive us to crave sugar. That's another reason they're worse than sugar. Sugar doesn't drive anyone to crave seed oils, but what seed oils do to our metabolism and inducing oxidative stress and therefore insulin resistance is make our cells crave sugar, because they have to burn something that's not going to hurt the mitochondria. When your body fat doesn't work for that, they have to use your blood sugar. Problem is, there's not enough. In order to increase the amount of sugar in your blood, you have to become insulin resistance. It's a huge topic, very important to understand if you have type 2 diabetes or prediabetes, this is going to help you understand the root cause a bit like nothing else ever has. To get out of it, you just build one meal at a time, and that is very important. I have lots of example meals, lots of very simple recipes. You don't have to even cook with a vast majority of what I talk about in the book. That's very practical. Can I still eat steak? Yeah, just don't cook it to dad. Don't try it. If you turn it into charcoal, where there's like mostly charcoal and ground leathery, that's not a steak anymore. It doesn't taste good anyway. You won't see that way anyway. Yeah, for sure. Kate were unfortunately during an hour and share with us where they can find the book. Anything else you want to share? Yes, you can find the book at Amazon, but I think you should look at my website first, because it'll tell you a little bit about the book and other places you can order it aside. Amazon, if you don't like Amazon. So my website is doctorcate.com, which is d-r-c-a-t-e. And when you visit, please scroll to the bottom of the website and sign up for my newsletter, which comes out about once a month after the initial sequence to get to know you. And that way you can stay up to date with other projects, because getting into the groove of a healthy diet for a long term requires a lot of support. And I'm working on resources that will help support people to really reorganize your life so much so that your just going shopping is basically meal planning. All right. So seed oils, oxidation, not little ache acid, we need to know that endogenous antioxidants are more important than the exogenous antioxidants. And insulin resistance, yeah, it's interesting that the seed oils drive the craving for sugar. I hadn't heard that before, so that's interesting here. Thank you so much, Kate. Appreciate it. Good luck. I hope this thing sells gazillion copies, and we get this information out there. So thanks so much. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Appreciate it. Bye-bye.
