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[MUSIC] Hello everybody and welcome to the tip of the iceberg podcast your home for Pittsburgh Penguins News and Analysis. You can find us on YouTube at the tip of the iceberg or anywhere you get your podcast from. I'm your host Nick Belsky. Joined as always by Nick Horawat. We got a great show for you guys today. Even though it is July 30th, in two days cottage season officially opens for NHL players, coaches, general managers, shoot media members that are at the highest level head out to their cottages in August. We still have plenty to discuss here and we're going to start things off by talking about potentially the most pivotal piece to the Penguins Bottom 6th this year and why nobody has talked about him all summer long. We'll continue things by reacting to what I've getting Mark and had to say about his future with the Pittsburgh Penguins and the National Hockey League. And we'll close things out talking about another ESPN ranking because there's some current Penguins that made it. There's some former Penguins that made it. But there's one major omission that we just we need to call out ESPN for. Let's get started. And let's start things off by talking about the X factor for the Penguins Bottom 6th and really a name that has not been discussed much around, you know, the Penguins fan base, the Internet, really anywhere. This guy signed a two year contract at the beginning of the off season and kind of faded into oblivion with all of the trades that were made with the free agency that happened. And I'm talking about Valtteri Postenin. A player that, you know, we've stood on the table for multiple times, a player that was pretty good last year for the Pittsburgh Penguins in his first real long stint at the National Hockey League level. But yet when you look at this summer and the discussion that has been had about the Penguins Bottom 6th, it seems like he consistently falls into the background for whether it be these young prospects that came over in the Genssel trade, whether it be, you know, guys like Bovillier or Hayes that were traded in. Blake Lazat, everybody's falling in love with. Why is it that nobody has really talked about Postenin raising the level of the bottom six because it feels like he has the highest ceiling for the 2024-25 season out of any of these guys? Yeah, in terms of offense, he definitely does. I think what makes him fly under the radar so much is that he's always sort of been this fly under the radar player and prospect in the Penguin system. I mean, he was a 7th round draft pick that I don't know. I can't remember if at the time he was expected to sort of blow up into a regular NHL player, but here we are 50-some games under his belt. And it's a bit of a different outlook now for him at the NHL level except he's still very much one of the, I don't want to say underappreciated, but just the less, like we're saying, the less talked about name because he's always sort of been that sort of player. And that will carry over, especially whenever the Penguins are bringing in guys like Kevin Hayes. That's kind of a big name player regardless of how you feel of how good or bad he is or what he could or could not bring to the team. That's a big name NHL hockey player. And when it comes to this bottom six here, he does this, Postenin does deserve a bit more of recognition because he's going to be the catalyst for any sort of offense from that bottom six. I mean, Kevin Hayes, we have high expectations for as we should. He's supposed to, like I said, have that big name status, but also is supposed to bring some sort of jolt. And Lars Heller, I mean, provided, but not necessarily to the point that we're expecting now this offensive, not juggernaut, but this offensive player might not tell you a person that Mike Sullivan wants him to shoot more. And we'll see if that happens in this upcoming season. Yeah, the one thing that I wanted to look at here because everybody agreed that going into this offseason, one of the biggest things that Kyle Dubas needed to address was bottom six scoring. I mean, the Penguins have had a severe lack of that over the last handful of years. You can go back probably two, three years potentially and say that this has been a major issue for the Penguins, not just a minor issue, a major issue. And you look at the final bottom six last year through the majority of that little final stretch, and specifically what it looked like on the last day of the regular season, you look at those six players, they combined for 47 goals in the 2023 24 season. The current bottom six, according to daily face offs lines has 49. So from 47 to 49, you're not elevating the bar, but when you look at that bottom six that the Penguins currently have again, according to daily face offs line tracker. It's Beauvillea Hayes, Pustinan, as your third line, Lezot Eller Achari. There is no doubt in my mind that Valteri Pustinan is the player with the most room to grow. It's not even close. And yet again, not many people are talking about him. He's kind of been forgotten about. And I think part of it is the shiny new prospects. Everybody's excited, including us, about Vili Koivunan, Vasili Panna Marev, maybe what Sam Poulan could be. But Pustin is a guy that 52 games last year. He only scored five goals, but there was a severe lack of opportunities for him to unleash what has been considered one of the better shots in the Penguins prospect system. If he gets those opportunities, especially, and I'm glad you brought him up, especially with a guy like Kevin Hayes, who is known for being a set up man, if he can get more opportunities to unleash that shot a little bit more time, a little bit more space. Pustinan could raise that level and raise that bar much higher than an Anthony Beauvillea and he's a much more known commodity because while he played 52 games last year for the Penguins, whereas guys like Koivunan, who has not made his NHL debut yet. Guys like Panna Marev, who have played literally less than three games, Poulan has played six NHL games. Pustinan has proven to at the very least, I test wise, looked very much at home and in place at an NHL level. If he can just round his game out and get more opportunities, there's no reason he shouldn't be the leading scorer of the Penguins bottom six, at least the bottom six that I'm looking at right now. Yeah, assuming there's no more moves, and even if let's say that one big move of the Penguins are trying to make, for the left, for a left where you play with Crosby, even if Drew O'Connor is the one that slides down to the third line spot, I still feel like Pustinan can outscore O'Connor and I get O'Connor just had a great learning year, and I want to say it was coming out season, but it was a great learning year for him in terms of what he can do in the NHL at full time at the NHL level and with his skill set. I think this year might be Drew O'Connor's coming out here, that's kind of why I wanted to hold off on saying that, but I feel like Pustinan has higher potential almost, especially offensively, that's just me because again, we've heard the way Mike Sullivan talks about Pustinan, he wants him to shoot more, he has a great shot. Yeah, he was a seventh round pick, but ended up proving to be a solid choice, it's not free, he just played at the IHF World Championship, I know it's sort of one of those oddity tournaments, but got national recognition from his home country there, and I don't remember the numbers, I don't think they were great. But a step in the right direction, a way to build confidence, again much like Drew O'Connor just did with Team USA the Year prior, so who knows what could be woken up with Pustinan this upcoming season again, if he can, he's got it, if he has a set up man like Kevin, Kevin Hayes, even if Drew O'Connor's on that other wing too, that's another four second open space, set up Pustinan for him to unleash his shooting ability, that's all exciting stuff no matter who's there and even if it's Beauvillier or Lazat or Enter name here, it'll be up to Pustinan to sort of take things for himself and make sure he's not someone flying under the radar anymore too. Yeah, I mean, unless some other name comes in and bumps people around the line up, this is probably what you're looking at, and again, there's still a chance that a guy like Koi Voonin, a guy like Panamara, a guy like maybe even a Jonathan Gruden bumps up and has such a great training camp that he is in the line up here. Again, the level, I mean, even throwing Yesopoul Yarvi, the level I think and the ceiling I think is so much higher with Pustin because, you know, five goals, I believe he had 20 or 21 points in 52 games last year. That is so far below the expectation, so far below the eye test as well, I mean, this guy's an analytics darling, I mean, the guy is great, has a great course, he had a great expected goals throughout his rookie season with his feet underneath him. And again, you mentioned it, Lars Eller wasn't bad last year for the Penguins, but Lars Eller was more of a defense first type of third line center, right? The offense came second and he wasn't able to set Pustin up as much as you're hoping a guy like Hayes does, so going into the season again, it's not, it's not to me that, you know, he is just that far ahead. The crazy thing to me is nobody has talked about him. I mean, nobody has. And going into this year, I think that that is going to be a name that if he succeeds, and if he's at his best. And if he has a, as you put it, a Drew O'Connor type, you know, breakout in the 2024-25 season. He's going to be one of the most important pieces to the Penguins actually having a team that can push for a playoff spot because you know what you need. You know what you can almost expect out of Crosby, out of Brian Rust, out of Evgeny Malkin, Eric Carlson, Chris Latang. If you get 75% and higher of what they're expected to do, you're going to be in a half-decent position, but Pustin's a guy that not many people are counting on to make a major impact. And yet he still has that capability in my eyes. So he's a name that when you're looking at the Penguins next year, if they're going to exceed expectations, which is what they're going to need to do to be a playoff team because the reinforcements are not coming. Like major reinforcements do not seem to be coming. Pustin is going to be the biggest name that everybody needs to turn to and hope that he's able to have that breakout. And like you mentioned, his ceiling offensively is higher than Drew O'Connor. If you can put both O'Connor and Pustin on that third line with Kevin Hayes, it is a much better, at least offensive, third line defensively. It was fine. Last year, Lars Eller was good defensively. Pustin. It was pretty good defensively. And then they had Riley Smith, who was responsible defensively at the end of the season. But you need to have guys that are molded into those roles. And I think O'Connor and Pustin in together would work well. And I just, I feel like Pustin is the X Factor for the Penguins bottom six. He is and he will be. I think if he's able to find what makes him good, find or make some great, this could be something very positive. I mean, clearly there's something about the playmaking ability that is already here. He had 15 assists in his time at the NHL level last season. Which they seem to be, you know, he sees a piling up point. So it's not like he's incapable or incapable of playing in the NHL. You know, he has that skill. And it's just a matter of holding off the guys behind him. And if things go properly, and let's say more things happen during the season, the trade deadline could get weird, who knows what kind of season the Penguins are going to have. Who knows if a Carter Kell is still here after a couple of months. Suddenly there's a spot probably on the top line is a spot up the lineup wide open. If he's able to produce, find some footing, make some sort of chemistry. Next thing you know, he's playing a lot of excited Sydney Crosby, maybe. Or if Genny Malkin, who knows what the lineup looks like down the line in a couple months and him starting off as a X Factor middle six forward, because you don't see him on the fourth line. He's only got room to grow. I could see him finishing the season, let's say up there with Malkin Crosby. All aboard! Welcome to the Friskis Express. Please keep all paws and tails inside the train. To the right, you'll see Crunch Canyon. To your left is Filet Falls. Now you're passing party mix peak. Today's delicioso tour is almost over. But don't worry, with Friskis, there's always more to explore. Take out Friskis.com to explore more. Have a question or need how to advice? Just ask MetaAI. Whether you need to summarize your class notes or want to create a recipe with the ingredients you already have in your fridge. MetaAI has the answers. You can also research topics, explore interests, and so much more. It's the most advanced AI at your fingertips. Expand your world with MetaAI. Now on Instagram, WhatsApp, Facebook, and Messenger. I'm glad you mentioned Malkin. Let's move over and talk about Upkenny Malkin here because he had some things to say over the weekend. When speaking with Sergei Demadov of ResponsibleGambling.org, he talked about really his future at the National Haheelig level, saying that maybe he plays more than the two years that he has left on his contract. Here's the quote from Upkenny Malkin again on ResponsibleGambling.org, saying quote, "I want to play for another two years. As for another one, we'll see after that. I still want to spend time with my family. Family is a very important part of my life. Many say they want to return to hockey soon after they retire, but I think my body will tell me when to stop. Maybe it will be expressed in a loss of desire to play or I'll start wondering if it's time to retire. Probably it will happen like this. I'll wake up one morning and realize that I don't want to play hockey anymore." Horwatt of Genny Malkin speaking on his future, saying, "Well, definitely the next two years, which I think we all expected, but as for another one after that, we'll have to see." And again, I think that's obviously the way that everybody expected him to take it as we'll finish out this contract, see if there's any meat left on the bone because, I mean, happy early birthday of Genny Malkin. He turns 38 tomorrow, but once this contract is over, he'll be entering his age 40 season. I will say he has, I test-wise, slowed down. You saw that last season. A lot of people mentioned it last season that he clearly had taken a step back from where he was in years prior, but I still feel like he produced at a high level. What were your thoughts on Malkin's comments about retirement in the future? It's interesting. We're just getting to that point of his career. I think we all know he's taken steps back. He's slowing down a bit, but still has enough ability to play out the contract. I think sooner or later, he's going to end up being a third-line center at some point with the Penguins here. I just, or a winger, because just the way the team, if the team's still trying to be a good team, they're still trying to compete. I think if the numbers take too much of a hit for Malkin and those last, let's say, year and a half of the deal, he's going to have to take a step back or step to the side. None of that is bad either. I mean, as players age, it doesn't mean they get that. It just means they have to start taking steps back on the ladder. I mean, this is him realizing that almost, that he understands he's getting near the end of his career. He knows if family's going to be even more important to him. I mean, his kids around the practice facility all the time now, around the rink, and it's awesome to see, but, you know, it's just one of those times. It's sort of the realization. Maybe he plays a year in Russia afterwards, too, but I'd say at the end of his contract, that's got to be hit for him with the Penguins. I hate to say it, but really, if he still feels he has another NHL year left with him after another two years, it's just, it would feel weird, it would, but it just shouldn't be at least if the Penguins are still trying to compete. If they have Crosby locked up and they're still trying to compete hard for a cup, you'd have to do what's best for the team. Yeah, and here's the other part of that article from RG.org is him saying, basically, at this point, he feels like he's not going to play for another franchise. He said, a couple of years ago, that was up in the air. He said, Wayne Gretzky played for other teams. You saw it with Stephen Stamkos and I'm paraphrasing here, but he was saying all this in that article. But he said, at this point, I don't see myself playing for another team. Obviously have those two years left, and then we'll see after that. But here's the thing, and I want to ask another question based on what you said, but here's the thing with Malkin is going into this year. Yeah, he might have slowed down eye test wise last season. He's still produced at, not just a decent level, but at a high level, and I think people choose to forget about that, right? He played all 82 games for the second straight season. He scored 27 goals, which was tied for fifth most among second line centers. He scored 67 points, which was tied for sixth most among second line centers. So at the very least, at the position that he plays, he is still among top five, top six in the National Hockey League. So there's no need going into the 2024-25 season to think of him as anything other than a second line center for the Penguins. But I understand what you're saying. We'll see what happens next year. His last year of the contract, things might have to change. Do you think it's more likely? Because a lot of people have said this in our comment section, and I want to address it. Do you think it's more likely than if getting Malkin ends up moving to wing and up with Sidney Crosby, or that he moves down to third line center? Oh, I think it would depend. Honestly, it might depend on who's in the lineup, because up to wing with Crosby is interesting. It's a fascinating idea, actually. But yeah, I could see that, but as for third line center, I feel like third line center might be more of the option, especially if they're trying to go in the direction of an offensive third line, which they should. But again, that would just depend on who's in the lineup. Truthfully, if they have someone who can take over a second line center. I mean, back when the free agency discussion of Malkin was happening, everyone was jumping to Vincent Trocek, which by the way, Penguins could have had both, just saying. Now, if they had both, maybe we'd be having that discussion of, well, he could easily just play third line center, Trocek elevated his game since then, pops into second. You don't really notice that much, Kevin Hayes wouldn't be here. We'd have a lot of, all righty, let's go. But without a solid name as that second line center, I think, in both situations, really, you need someone to fill in that spot. And it'll depend on how these prospects develop, too. So what is more likely as I kind of around about way of saying, I think third line center might end up being more likely just because of the way these prospects develop into a second line center for someone or a solid winger that can play with Crosby. Or like I just mentioned, Valtteri Pusen and maybe popping up there. Yeah, I think it's unlikely that we ever see for a full time him being on a line with Sidney Crosby. We haven't seen it for 20 years, and I don't think as they get older, that's any more likely. I think it's less likely that we see that. And honestly, I could see him moving to wing, but if he's moving to wing, certainly not this season, right? But this season, he is a center. He is your second line center, because one, like you mentioned, there is nobody currently within the organization that is anywhere close to being able to take that mantle from him. There isn't because, again, tied for fifth among second line centers and goals tied for sixth among points. There's nobody there. Kevin Hayes is far away from that. Braden Yeager is not going to be a full time NHL this season. That's become evident. There's nobody in the organization. And honestly, there's nobody that they're going to bring in at this point. If they're bringing anybody in, it's a left winger to hopefully go on that side as a top six guy. But again, that is very much in question. So when you're looking at getting Vulcan, when I'm looking at getting Vulcan, and of course, this all starts with him kind of realizing his own mortality and professional sports. I'm still looking at him as the Penguin second line center this season. After this season, that's when it becomes questionable after that one, which is when he's obviously referencing here. Well, we'll see after two years, if I want to play another year playing at the age of 40 years old. I don't know at that point if I will be able to say if getting Vulcan is going to be good enough still to be a second line center. But again, even though the eye test fell off last year, the production was still there. The eye test is probably never going to get much better. But as long as the production is still there, the Penguin should have no issue, especially at $6.1 million. They should have no issue with getting Vulcan as their second line center as long as that production stays where it is. He doesn't need to be an point-per-game player. If he's a close to 70 point player again this year, then you look at next year and say, all right, going into the year, that's the plan. And you're hoping, like you mentioned, that some of these prospects start to climb that ladder a little bit faster and potentially become players that you could one day see taking over the mantle of second line center. And that brings up a scary proposition, which is you're hoping these guys can get to that ceiling, and there's still a first line center, which is Crosby right now. But the future after Crosby, it makes you realize there's nobody to take over his mantle as of right now. And there's nobody coming at the moment. So it's a little scary for the future of the Penguins. But as of right now, they still have their first line center at Crosby. They still have their second line center in Vulcan. Going into the future, there's questions. But going into this year, there's none. No, not this year. It's all future questions down the line. And also, if this team proves that they've Crosby and Vulcan prove and Latang and Carlos improve, they can still cut it for a couple seasons here for the end of their deals and for whatever Crosby signs for. Maybe they forced Kyle Dubas's hand to wheel and deal a little. Don't act like there's an outside options that can be brought in. Again, it may come with the another sacrifice of the future. I'm not saying. Yeager or other top prospects, but maybe a draft pick or two, if we start sending those out the door again. So there's a tough decisions to make. But again, the only thing that the only way for that to happen is if the Penguins, the current Penguins can prove and force Kyle Dubas's hand. They can prove themselves and force Kyle Dubas to go okay. Here's a shiny new toy from who knows what the trade block looks like. It's hard to predict at this point. Yeah, especially down the line. I mean, everyone thought Martin nature was going. He stayed for staying for two years. Nick Eelers is going to end up staying, it seems, and Winnipeg. And again, these are all places that we've discussed. Those deals aren't getting done now. We'll see by the upcoming trade deadline into next year's trade deadline where things stand with this team because you don't want to use the word like we mentioned last few episodes. But they're trying to push off using that word as much as possible. And if they can, you know, find some ground, find some levity. Well, forced a hand. That's a big if to me. I mean, trust me, I'm not counting out the possibility that they are just good enough to where Kyle Dubas says, okay, they just need a piece right now because they have been so good this year. I'm not counting it out, but I'm saying it is very unlikely that they're able to be that good to where Kyle Dubas says, you know, we're going to change course again because remember, he came into the organization with a thought of, hey, we're going to give these guys an opportunity. I think this team is good enough to potentially go on a run here to an under a calendar year saying, even though we're not saying it, we're going to start making moves as if we're rebuilding team to be able to turn that 180 again. It might not be 180. It might just be, we just need one piece. But to be able to turn that direction again to turn that tide again, they're going to have to be pretty good. And again, the team that I see on paper, marginally better than last year, marginally. So, will they be able to do it? That much remains to be seen. But as far as top stars, yeah, I still have faith that they're all very good and among the best at their position. We'll see what happens whenever the season starts here in, what, a month, two months, whatever it ends up being at this moment because we're heading into August, two months still. We'll see what ends up happening there. But again, I just think that's such a major. It is. It will be. And it's just up to the stars. That's all. Yep. Walmart has the trusted brands and products your kids need for school. Like H.P. Chromebooks? Yep. Reebok hoodies? Yep. Pokemon pencil cases? I think you know the answer. But just in case, yes. Go back in style with Walmart. Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my hundredth mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Honestly, when I started this, I thought I'd only have to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at midmobile.com/save whenever you're ready. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes of CD-Tails. Let's finish this episode off by, again, going to ESPN who is just, you know, giving us a little bit of life and making us a little angry at some of these lists, naming the top hockey players of the 21st century. Three current penguins make the list. Sydney Crosby tops it at number one. If Genny Malkin gets a little bit of respect here at number nine, Eric Carlson at number 16 to former penguins also make the list. Mark Andre Flurry at 18 and Jerome McGinla at number 20. There's one major omission here. Again, I don't have really much of an issue with where the five penguins I just mentioned are Crosby clearly number one to me. Walking at nine, I think fits Carlson at 16 sounds about right. Flurry at 18 sounds maybe a little low, but again, I'm not going to argue too much over it. Again, let 20 fits. There's one huge omission and somebody that was omitted from the top 100 athletes of the 21st century where you had pretty strong thoughts on that omission, not as much on this one. What do you think about the fact that Yarmir Yager is nowhere to be found on any of these? It's interesting. It really is. Especially when it comes to the top 100 "professional athletes" of the 21st century. He's probably the only one that has played all 24 years of the new century professionally, full through, even if it's in it, even in Europe, it is still a professional athlete being played, still a professional sport being played over there. As for the NHL one, I get to see NHL rankings. Maybe you don't count him in because he didn't play blah, blah, blah. He still played 14 years in this league, 14 seasons in the NHL, and put up bomb numbers. And as an aging, aging, aging veteran, too, no less. I believe he turned 30 in 2000, if not a couple years, like a year or two after. So he did all the numbers that we'll bring up, all the things that we'll discuss in his 30s, which is rare. Where we cover the Penguins, where we're discussing our best players being 35, 36, 37, 38 years old. And the fact that Yager not only played all through his 30s at the top of his game was a heart nominee in one of those seasons, and then played in at the NHL level deep into his 40s, and was still solid enough to produce for, okay, fine. The Panthers weren't that good, but he was still solid enough to produce on an NHL team. That's something. And, like I mentioned, it's been the year of Yager, but, yeah, I think this is a, you're right, another big omission for sure. I ran the numbers, which is pretty easy when you go to hockey references, because you just clicked the years. Since the 2000, 2001 season. And so this is leaving out the early portion of the year 2000, because it just didn't have the time to do that. But since the 2000, 2001 season, Yarmir Yager has had a, not borderline, a Hall of Fame career. And that's taking out an entire decade of his career where he was winning art Ross trophies and heart trophies and Stanley Cups. But since 2000, 1008 games played 379 goals, 963 points, one heart trophy, one Lester B Pearson award, one masterton trophy. He played three of those seasons overseas from 36 to 38. So where Crosby's at right now? 36, he just put up what? 93 points. Yarmir Yager from 36 to 38 was not in the National Hockey League. He played in the National Hockey League till he was 45 years old, and he's still playing to this day in Czechia, and he has so much lore surrounding him and people have such a high respect for him that I had people honestly asking me if the Penguins were going to sign him for the rest of the season to that February 18 game when he came out and practiced. So they said, Oh, could they, could they, could they bring him back? Is he? I mean, they need bottom six scoring. He still has his shot. He's 52 years old and there's people that are earnestly believing that he could still play in the league today. How was this guy not a top 25 of all NHL players in the 21st century? I understand that some of those later years, you mentioned Florida when he was 42, 43, 44 years old. He wasn't lighting the world on fire, but you have to be at a certain level to be still desirable at that age for NHL teams. Yarmir Yager was in, and he was still a good bottom six piece towards the end of his career in the NHL. And again, I have to say in the NHL because his career is still going on in Czechia. I think it is crazy that he was not on either of these lists. He 100% should have been on the top 100 athletes and he 1000% should have been on the top 25 NHL players. Let's also consider those years. I said, yeah, he was with the Florida Panthers and fading into the end of his NHL career. I forgot he put up 66 points in 79 games played as a 43 year old. Yeah. One the master to that year and was seventh in heart voting. It looks like according to hockey reference. The next year at now, 44 years old numbers went down, but he had 46 points. That's not bad still played all 82. I just, I'm not, I'm not many minutes rude from saying if getting all can shouldn't be a penguin anymore if he's playing past the age of 40. Yeah. Like, but Yager, if, if you told me, if you told me Yarmir Yager at the age of 44 is going to play all 82 and put up 46 points. Oh, yeah. Give me that. I'll take that. That's kind of the different. That's a different level of star power that I'm putting Gogger, at least in this in the grand scheme of full careers over Malkin, which absolutely. He's a second all time leading scorer in the NHL for a reason. And a lot of that reason was the work he did in the 21st century. Now, again, it's not the same as, you know, four straight art Ross trophies, three straight to end the end the 90s, actually. Sorry. And then to kick off 2000, 2001 with one of them with one for himself. But just unreal stuff. And as he aged, he still put up good fights and it's for some pretty good teams. I mean, that New York Rangers team that the Penguins had to face in the playoffs in '08 was nuts. And it was led by Yager. And then Yager had another chance of the cup. I believe with the Bruins in 13 had more chances at, you know, at some pretty good teams. You can't, whenever he came back with the Flyers, I believe that was a good team. And so much lore around your honker that you're right. Mate, I don't know if you could cut it in the NHL these days. He's trying to play all every, I don't know how many games they play in and check you. It's trying to play every game this season and check you add 52 mad man. He's a mad man and does deserve every piece of recognition he gets and deserve these, these little recognitions to again, these lists don't mean much, but it's, but it's crazy still. I mean, this is, this is the TV provider for the National Hockey League, the primary television provider for the National Hockey League. And yet, they still don't recognize the greatness that is probably one of the top four still players in the history of the National Hockey League. Here's how, here's how I ranked the Penguins Mount Rushmore in order. Lemieux, Crosby, Yager, Malkin. Ooh, I reversed those last two, but okay. Really? Well, Malkin stuck around longer and has put up more points if, if, if Yager stuck around. And even another couple seasons, doesn't have to stay this whole career, even just a couple seasons. Maybe it's a different conversation, but it's the way Malkin kind of has stuck around, has now gone through contract negotiations and has surpassed the numbers tests. Yeah, that's a big one. That's just what does it for me? Yeah, longevity and commitment to the organization is very important. And I'm not saying it is a wide gap between Yager and Malkin. And I think mainly when I'm saying that I'm thinking more of at the height of their powers, who was the better player for the Penguins? Yarmir Yager was the captain. He carried that organization when Mario Lemieux was dealing with everything that he had to deal with, his retirements, his injuries, his illnesses. It was Yager. Malkin has done that in shorter spurts for Sidney Crosby. Thankfully, there hasn't been as much, but there has been times. I think the point is, you know, Yager belongs in those conversations. And when you're looking, if that is the Penguins conversation alone, how do you not, whenever you open it up to wherever else Yager played, put him up there alongside the guys like, you know, Nick Lidstrom, guys like, at least Joe Thornton, like, come on, Joe Thornton's whole career. He's a Hall of Famer, but his career was, you know, again, Yager, since 2000, 2001, over 1000 games played almost 1000 points. And Hart, a Pearson and a Masterton. I mean, how do you not include that in the top 25? And the other thing I'll mention here before we go. And if you have any other gripes with this list, obviously, I'll let you unleash that. Martan Broder got heavily disrespected in that list. Greatest goaltender of all time in my eyes. And again, that is a debate for another day. But I see him as the greatest goaltender of all time. Below Nathan McKinnon and Patrick Kane. I mean, Kane at four is ridiculous in its own right. I mean, over Lidstrom? Really? McKinnon, I think was too high as well. I like Nathan McKinnon, but top, I think he was sixth or seventh. He was above Broder. And I think that was just kind of ridiculous. So I think a little bit more respect for Marty Broder and a lot more respect for Yager and needed at ESPN headquarters right now. That's an interesting broader take. I don't totally disagree with the great school evil time thing. It helps. He had a ton of great defense in front of him. But again, discussion for another day. I see what you're coming from. I think you're right. Having McKinnon that high is kind of crazy, thinking that he is sixth. And it's only been, I forget how long his career has been now. He's been around for a while, I guess. So he's got that kind of role for him. Tom's flying, but I think he's been in the league for over 10 years. I think he was drafted in 2013. He came in in 2013. I don't know. The little bio here doesn't help much, but he's got a cup under his belt, just won the heart trophy and is ridiculous and will only supposedly get better, which is kind of crazy. So I guess I could see where they're coming from, but I think it is. I think I am with you. I still think six is too high for him. And it's always tough to rate goalies. It is. It's almost an entirely different sport compared to what the forwards and how you're trying to rank them in skaters. Yeah, I mean, because I look at the list and I see who's the who's number eight directly behind Broder, Henry Clubquist, and I go, are you sure? Isn't that a bit high? Let's be honest, like, great goalie for sure. You know, worked his way from a seventh round pick. But really, though, I mean, he doesn't have a cup under his belt. Sure, he is an all star a couple of times, but also is carry price on this list. No, I don't see. But you can make the same. You can make the same debate about Lundfist in the opposite that you made about Broder is he didn't have great. Who did he have in front of them? If you're looking at Henry Glungfist. I mean, I don't know. I was more or less looking to see if Lundquist ever won an MVP trophy, which he didn't, because that's kind of where I give carry price a bit more of a, oh, okay, there was that goalies don't win that trophy almost period. Carry price did. So there's a bump there. Henry Clubquist has one Vesna. One. Again, he's a great goalie. I'm not saying anything negative about it. I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but now we're just getting into the little details of why goalies are so hard to rank and so hard to discuss. I mean, you can go on to say that, I mean, great fear has five cups and his career goals against average is like under nine. So it's goalies are hard to discuss. And everyone has their opinion over who's good and who's not. I think under Glungfist, I hate to say it has always kind of been overrated, but that's just me. Let's close it out with this one since we're talking about goal tenders and why not. Carry price is not on the list at 25 is Jonathan quick. I know he's your dad. That's hard. Kings are your, you know, kings are your second love. Jonathan quick is is King's royalty. Yeah. Yeah, I know he shouldn't be because goalies are so hard. Again, carry price was better. Also, if we're really discussing it, Mark Andre Flurry is the second winningest goalie of all time. What's he doing below these guys, except for Broder. Again, and this might just be because I'm too close to it because obviously both of us have watched his entire career. He revitalized it in that first year with Vegas and that last playoff run with the Penguins, but there was a lot of just complete nutter self destruction in the postseason. We don't need, we don't need to remember the Tomos Vokun playoffs. We don't need to remember the fact that that 2016 cup where everybody's like, yeah, he's a three time cup champ. I'm like, okay, but 2016 was really Matt Murray 2017. He gets half credit because he went the first half. And obviously he was huge in that series against the Washington Capitals. I love Flurry. I really do, but again, putting him up against the greats. I don't know if you can say, Hey, three cups to one. Let's, what are we doing here? I personally can't because two, I'd say one and a half cups to one. And that's what where you start the conversation. You want to hear you want an easy swap for Jonathan quick? Yeah, Roberta Luongo. Yeah, yeah. I started his career in 1999. I was like, where do long is not in this list? I played a lot in the 90s. No, he didn't. Ninety nine. His old careers in the 2000s. He also played most of his career for Vancouver in Florida. Yep. That's not helping. There's a lot of, I don't want to say it. There's a lot of big market bias in this, in this list, but that's, you know, as it comes with that. Yes, but that's going to do it as we work and talk about this all day, but that's going to do it for this episode of the tip of the iceberg, a little inside baseball here. This is the fourth or fifth time we've tried to record this because for some reason, my laptop was like, you shouldn't record today. Well, we got one out, Horawat. I hope everybody enjoyed the episode. We'll be back tomorrow with a live stream. I will update you on the time of the live stream because Steelers training camp, other obligations, changes my schedule a little bit, but we will be live tomorrow at some point and then, of course, have a full episode for you on Thursday. We're heading into cottage season, Horawat, but we still have plenty to discuss. We're going to still discuss things every single week, but that's going to do it for this particular episode of the tip of the iceberg. Thank you guys so much for tuning into this one. And remember, you can find us on YouTube at tip of the iceberg or anywhere. You get your podcast from. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
