Artist & illustrator Anita Kunz returns to the show to talk about how art saved her life, as we catch up on her fantastic books, ORIGINAL SISTERS and STRIKING A POSE: A Handy Guide to the Male Nude (Pantheon and Fantagraphics, respectively). We talk about Anita's passion for figure drawing, how disconcerted some male viewers were by Striking A Pose, the difference between drawing women and men and all the tension and dynamics that go into making art from each gender, and why Winston Churchill's granddaughter was none-too-pleased by his appearance in her book. We get into how her 2020 lockdown project of painting one portrait of a badass woman every day evolved into her Original Sisters series, how it feels to be closing in on 500 portraits (!), and how she keeps finding more badass women to paint. We also discuss her transition from an acclaimed illustration career into big art projects, how Barbara Nessim helped her find a gallery (and how she had to get over her fear of gallery owners), the book of parables & fables she's making, how it feels to see her Original Sisters in museum exhibitions (and how much she's looking forward to their big show at the Norman Rockwell Museum), the burden of having to be A Nice Girl In A Small Town growing up, how she makes great art while being racked with self-doubt, the importance of mentors and art-friends, and a lot more. Follow Anita on Instagram, check out the Original Sisters site, and listen to our 2021 conversation • More info at our site • Support The Virtual Memories Show via Patreon or Paypal and via our e-newsletter
The Virtual Memories Show
Episode 598 - Anita Kunz
(upbeat music) - Welcome to The Virtual Memories Show. I'm your host, Gil Roth, and we're here to preserve and promote culture one weekly conversation at a time. You can subscribe to The Virtual Memories Show through iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, Google Play, and a whole bunch of other venues. Just visit our sites, chimeraabscura.com/vm or vmspod.com to find more information, along with our RSS feed. And follow the show on Twitter and Instagram at VMSPod. Well, I am here, which is more than I can say for most people. There's something funny happen this weekend. I'll probably write about it in my newsletter too, so if this seems familiar, months from now, it's because I'm cribbing my own stuff. I went on a hike with my, I guess my oldest friend. We've been doing these hikes in the fire towers of the Catskills all summer. There's five of them, there's six, but the sixth one is just a little walk. There's five of them and we drive an hour and 45 minutes up there, do a big hike, hit a fire tower, take our picture, come back down. So we did this one, we did Mount Tremper, which is three miles out, three miles back, all rocks and roots everywhere, no easy trail. And 2,000 feet straight up, well, not straight up. In fact, the first mile was only 400 feet, which meant miles two and three were gonna add up to 1,600 feet. And they did, it was something. But afterwards we stopped at the Woodstock Brewery to get a little food and some of my pal, grab a beer and he asked me where I thought I was gonna be living when I retire, when I get older. And I tried not to look at him like he had two heads 'cause I live in the house I grew up in. I plan on finding a way to die here, whether it's sooner or later. But it was a weird moment for me 'cause something else came up last night. We're watching "Dinnertime Live" with David Chang in this comedian who was one of the guests on the show. So he made some comment about how when he gets old, he might listen back to the podcast series that he does. Nowadays, I forget the exact wording, but because he wanted to, you might wanna hear what he used to be, what it used to be like. And those two, back to back, got me thinking about how I don't think about being old. I mean, I joke that I'm an old man, but I guess in certain ways I haven't really conceptualized what that's gonna mean, which is ironic because about an hour and a half from now, I have to head over to my old man's for telehealth appointment with his cardiologist and that's pretty much a living image of what might be awaiting me. But anyway, that's just something. I'm not gonna bore you too much with my whole thing 'cause, well, you're not here for that. You're here for my guest and my guest this time is Anita Kuns, this wonderful artist and illustrator who I recorded a remote podcast with back in 2021 for her book, Another History of Art. And we had tried getting together in person before the pandemic and there was an emergency on her side so we couldn't do it. We did this remote one in 21. Last year with her newest book, we were gonna get together when she was in New York, but I couldn't make it that time and it's sort of starting to sound like that. Waitress's song about Christmas. But anyway, this time around, Amy and I went up to Toronto for July 4th weekend and Anita and I got to sit down and have a conversation. I don't need to tell you too much 'cause you're gonna get a lot of it from this talk itself. But Anita, as I mentioned, a fantastic illustrator. She's got a long, long career in magazine illustration. Fine Art, she had the book, Another History of Art from Fantagraphics back in '21. Most recently, she put out a book called Striking a Pose, a handy guide to the male nude, which consists of drawings of male nudes, life drawings except with various celebrities and iconic figures faces on them, all men. Like Frank Zappa and Winston Churchill and Muhammad Ali and well, a lot of famous men, she just kind of put on to these nude bodies and decided how to render the nudity as we talk about. So that's our most recent one. Came out from Fantagraphics. And that's what we were gonna connect with last year. But in between those, she has a series of a book called Original Sisters, Portraits of Tenacity and Courage. And that came out from Pantheon. That is part of a big series that she started during the pandemic, which again, she'll talk about, of portraits of badass women over a throughout history. And this series has been going on and on, and you're gonna hear some really amazing stuff about it. There's gonna be an exhibition of the Original Sisters paintings. There's been a couple of them so far. It's gonna open at the Norman Rockwell Museum in November of 2024 for what I hope is gonna be a pretty sizable showing of this stuff. It's about two hours. In fact, it's the same way I go up to the Catskills is how you go up to Massachusetts to get to Stockbridge, the Rockwell Museum. So I'm looking forward to going up there in November, seeing that and, well anyway, I don't have anything more to tell you. Anita's a wonderful artist, wonderful guest. I was so happy to finally get to sit down with her in person to record, 'cause we bumped into each other at festivals and book signings and stuff, and we just never had this opportunity. So I got to look at her art and her studio and then meet her husband, who shall remain nameless, although he gets referenced here. So anyway, let's get on with the show. And here's Anita's bio from her latest book. There's a longer version on her site, which is AnitaKoons.com. Anita Koons is an acclaimed illustrator and painter whose work has graced the covers of The New Yorker, Time, Rolling Stone, The New York Times Magazine, and many other mass circulation periodicals. She was named one of the 50 most influential women in Canada by the National Post. She was the first woman and the first Canadian to have a solo show at the Library of Congress. She has been appointed officer of the Order of Canada, the country's highest civilian honor, and she lives in Toronto. And now the 2024 Virtual Memories Conversation with Anita Koons. (upbeat music) - So it's been about three years since we recorded. I was actually looking on the notes. It was July 13th then. So it is almost three years to the day. - Okay. - You've put out two books since then. The one I'm, well, the one we're gonna start talking about is striking a pose, a handy guy to the male nude. Tell me where that came from and we'll talk about what it is. - I think it's really, people don't quite know what to make of it. And I never know what to say about it because some people, I think some people are kind of offended. Some people think it's hilarious. It's just because I don't think it's ever really been done like this, but, and I was trying to figure out the genesis of this. And because I did it, it's an old idea. It's 15 years old. Most of the drawings are 15 years old. So I started doing them. It must have been 16 or 17 years ago. And so the first time that any of them were ever shown was in a show with Maurice Velacoupe. And it was at a show in Toronto, and it was at the, at a gallery that doesn't exist anymore. And it was, we called it The Naughty Show. And it was, I think it was in June. So it must have had something to do with pride. I think it must have. And so I did a bunch of drawings, like this of nude men. Maurice did a bunch of drawings of nude men. I would say his were a little bit more erotic, and mine ended up being a little bit more academic. Because I come from an art school background. I've done a lot of life drawing. I did a lot of teaching of life drawing. So for me, it sort of seemed more normal to, well, whatever normal means, I don't know to do that. - It made sense, what was it? - It made sense, yeah. And I think, I was trying to think of how this started. I think I just, I always start doing a couple of drawings, and then I just keep going. In this case, when I used to do life drawing, I used to go draw in front of the models and leave something out. And then, for example, I would leave off ahead, or I would leave off some arms. And then I would come home and do something with the drawings. Like I would add an animal head, or I would add, instead of arms, I would add wings, or something like that. So, and then I think that that was part of how this happened. It was like imagining stuff, how would this look? How would this look? So I think, and then it kind of went in that direction. But no, I've had some really weird comments about it. My audience seems to be gay men, which I'm 1,000% happy about. - That's a very good market to have. - I'm very happy about that. That's not a problem at all. But we had a book launch of the Society of Illustrators. And I think, and some of the questions from some of my male friends were a little bit, were interesting. What somebody asked if I'm doing propaganda. And I couldn't even understand what that meant. Like in what sense is this propaganda? I don't know, I don't know. I mean, I always do nudes. That's not a, you know, that's not a stretch for me. I mean, most of it's female nudes. And then what was somebody? Oh, somebody else wanted to know if I'm taking revenge. And I thought I'd revenge. It took me a while to even understand what the question meant. And it was like, no, it's not revenge. I mean, initially, the whole point was it's a celebration. It's a celebration of the nude, right? So anyway, so yeah, I seem to have done something that nobody knows what to do with. - And it will say creates attention for people. Because it's a woman drawing nude men and they have these celebrity or iconic faces. - Right. - And because you make decisions about what their dick should look like. - Exactly. - No, some of them, other ones are posed, tastefully turned away from the viewer. - Some of them are posed tastefully, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But yeah, that was the, it was gonna be one of my questions, less a revenge thing and more of the, how did you decide who was gonna be, you know, the up or down or cut or what? - They just, they suggest themselves. They suggest themselves, you know, this one's completely intuitive. I just kind of imagine based on their personalities, like the ones, you know (laughs) the ones the one where we're at going or are gonna be a certain way. - And then there are people who are compensating, but yeah. - Yeah, but I showed it to somebody who I forgot was Winston Churchill's granddaughter and she was quite upset. I completely forgot she was Winston Churchill's granddaughter. She's a friend of somebody in New York anyway, so she didn't like it because she thought I, and I had him sort of looking away, so I didn't even go there. 'Cause I didn't wanna go there anyway, but, so there you go. - But still, there's a degree where, I mean, it's what you expose, as it were, throughout the book, that the male nude is somehow sacrosanct or a man's privacy is different than a woman. - It is kind of interesting. I mean, I do, yeah, like I said, I do a lot of nudity and I never quite understand why it's always such a taboo, but I mean, I've had shows, you know, like I said, I typically draw female nudes and I was in a show here and I was warned that we may have to take some of the female nudes down because people might, you know, be offended. There's an Islamic community and they're not gonna like it and I thought, oh gee, okay, well, if you go to Europe, it doesn't seem to be an issue at all. And when I've been asked in the past of why do I draw female nudes so much, it's because, you know, half the time, I don't know how to dress them, you know, my illustration work from the past, I did decades of illustration work and, you know, to me, that work now looks dated. It looks of a certain time. And when I started doing my own work, my own projects, I wanted to do something that was a little bit more timeless. So I didn't, you know, what do I dress? It just seemed like it wasn't, if I'm using the human body as a metaphor, then dressing them is, it doesn't really make sense anyway. So, but the other, the other thing is that, I mean, just don't even on Facebook, they're so, you know, female nudes are ubiquitous. - That's just what I'm saying. - Everywhere. - Everywhere. - It's okay for women to be, just kind of like out of a man. - Oh, wow. - Like every, every, you know, every time an artist, a young artist posts something, male or female, it's always, it's always female. So I was actually a little surprised that it's, that it became a big deal because it never is a big deal when it's a female. - And it's, I could say, but I think the point you may not have realized you were making in the process. - Yeah, I guess, I mean, I guess there are different ways to look at it. I mean, there's also, if you want to go hardcore feminist about it, you can say that there's, that you could say that it's diffusing power, that I mean, I sort of thought about that too, you know, maybe, I don't know, maybe that's part of the reason that women have been put down. I don't know, it's a method of diffusing power, I think. - Yeah, it's certainly a leverage. I mean, it was an Oscar's thing a million years ago. I think Seth MacFarlane had his opening song was about women whose boobs they've seen on film. - Yeah. - And this was seen as a ha-ha moment that I was like, wow, that's actually incredibly skeevy and gross that you would make this a celebratory song to open the Oscars in front of like a billion viewers. But, you know, if it was, again, guys, so. - Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, I guess so. But I didn't, you know, the other thing is, I mean, if you look at them, they're not, I didn't make them, well, except for a couple. I made them kind of gross. Like Trump is, Trump is not attractive. - Or Johnson. - Or, yeah, or Putin. Anyway, but for the most part, I mean, they're sort of lovingly drawn because I love doing, I love figure drawing and I love doing anatomy. So anyway, so I'm just, you know, with my projects, I think a lot of, especially the personal stuff that I've done after my illustration career, it's kind of, it's kind of a what if. Like, what if we do this? What if we do that? And then it's kind of seeing where it falls. The, another history of art book was kind of a similar thing. Like, you know, so we already know that all these paintings were, you know, my, what I learned in art history was about white European history, but there are other histories. You know, so what if this happens? What if these paintings were done from the perspective of a white, you know, secular woman, meaning me? So, so there's a lot of, what if stuff that I do? - You learn anything about drawing men through the process of this? Or was it really, again, did you learn that you really enjoyed drawing women? Or that, that drawing women is a, is drawing one more fun or just something that you-- - I just, I like doing figure drawing. I don't care if it's men or women. I really don't. - Now, pose after this. We can, I'm just kidding. - Okay. (both laughing) - Yeah, I mean, yeah, I like, I like drawing. I like figure drawing. Most of my work is, you know, either I'm drawing humans or I'm drawing animals. I mean, I don't do abstracts or anything like that. I don't do landscapes. I mean, it's all very, you know, it's mostly people and animals. - It's gonna sound weird only because I am kind of contemplating a series of work, or a series of artwork. I've already had a weird side trip into trying to come up with watercolors of Japanese white-eye birds, which somehow, I did one haphazardly and it turned out to be the best one I've done of the 15 or 20 that I've done since, which pisses me off that I can't recapture how spontaneous. The first one was. - That's the problem. - It kills me. But that sense of knowing that you've hit on something that you found, you know, a vein, I guess, in terms of an ore, as opposed to a heroin type, type of action type, thanks. But that you found a theme worth pursuing. Do you, as an artist, do you get when that's happening? Or is it something you're sort of working through in the process? - I don't know, but I'll tell you, I need a new one now. - Okay. - And I'm sort of racking my brains, trying to figure out what to do next. - Don't steal my Japanese white-eye birds. - No, I'm not. (laughing) - No, but if I can just sort of, my latest project, which is Portraits of 450 Women, hopefully to be 500, they're just very simple portraits of women who have many of whom we don't know about and everybody should know, like really significant women, you know, women who've made important advances in the culture and science and the arts and pretty much everything. So I started out doing that one. I didn't know I would ever do 450. I started out thinking, okay, here's a pandemic. What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? You know, like it just seemed like everything was shutting down. And I thought, well, what can I do where I can do one a day? I just do it. I just go through this whole pandemic and just sort of think, you know, do something that has some kind of meaning that gets me through the day and takes my mind off this kind of scary thing that's happening. So I thought, well, why don't I do a few portraits of badass women? And that's kind of how it started. And I did more and then I found some more in my research and I just kept finding more and more and more and then I thought, oh, I have 50. What should I do? I'll keep going and then it was 100 and then it was 150. And then I sent it and then I contacted Chip Kid, who I knew from before and I said, this maybe is this a book? Do you think it could this be a book? And he said, yeah. And he asked his editor and yeah, so it became a book. And then the book came out and unfortunately the book came out during the pandemic. So there were no book signings. There was nothing. There was like very little PR, which was really disappointing. But it seems to live on because I kept doing more and more because I just kept finding more and more. And that's the problem. I was going to stop at 365 because that's a year of women. That's a nice figure. But then I found another one. I found a woman who's a Rwanda who's a chief in Rwanda. And she has annulled 2,000 child marriages. Children, little girls get married at the age of 12. And so I thought, I have to paint. I mean, she has to be in here. And that's the problem. I keep finding more and more. So I picked like 500. But to your question-- I'm Andrew. But yeah, yeah. I really-- I never know. I always kind of me-- I do me Andrew a little bit, like with this women, you know, the female portraits. But now I've kind of made a couple of false starts. And I just-- I'm not feeling it. And so I'm a little lost right now because I really want to start something else and make a big project out of it. But I don't know what to do yet. The thing is that for how many years? 35, 40 years? 35 years. I was an illustrator. So I would get calls two or three times a week, do the job, and it was always like that. Snap, snap, snap, do it quickly. Make-- see it in print by. You know, it's now within a couple of weeks. And then the industry changed a lot. And then I found myself with a lot more time. So I said, well, this is fine. This is a great opportunity. I can do a deeper dive into something. And so that's when I started thinking, OK, what kind of big projects can I do? But yeah, right now I'm really-- I'm kind of between and I'm a little, what am I going to do next? I don't know. I have faith in you. You know, and I will send over goofy ideas or images or things crop up that I could never pursue in a million years because I'm just some half-assed guy who started to 50. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I will tell you what I just finished. So I did just actually finish something. And that's compiling-- it's a book of parables and fables. And it's-- so that's what I'm not-- yeah, that's what I've just kind of sent off. And hopefully my publisher will like it. But so that's-- I think my projects are all kind of different. I think they're all very different. That's why it's kind of hard for me to talk about this striking opposed book, because that's like 15 years ago. I know. And we were supposed to get together last November, at least it would have been more fresh in your memory. But yeah. But yeah, they all seem different. Sometimes it's satire, and sometimes it's serious. And so the book that I've just written is-- it's a series of fables. And it's kind of-- I guess it's more serious. And I think it's about 120 paintings with these fables written, partly autobiographical. But also, when I was a kid, I grew up-- first of all, my background is kind of weird. My mother is 12th century Transylvanian. Like we'll go way back. So there's that vampire. My father's from Bucharest. So yeah, we've got some attention. That's why I don't do these things on video, because I don't show up on film. But anyway, that's a good one, yeah. I thought you would say something in my teeth, but OK. So there you go. Yeah. So that's always been a little bit in my head. 12th century, that's a long history. A long time ago. I mean, I think they were peasants and farmers. And I don't even know. Anyway, so there's that. And then when I was a kid, I used to love that Twilight Zone. And oh, oh, wait. But when I was growing up, we were-- so they were from Germany. In the 12th century, they went to Transylvania. They settled there. Because I think they were giving money to people from other kind of-- To resettle? Yeah, to resettle. So I grew up with German fairy tales, like "Stirwell Pater," and "Mucks and Moritz," and all the fairy tales that were really dark. They were really dark. And they're little morality stories. And so I thought, I love that. And maybe I could do that pairing a painting with a little tail. So that's what this one is. So that's ready to go. That's my latest question. Are you working with existing fables, or are you kind of tweaking them into-- No, it's all new. OK. So I wondered if you were kind of making the Anita fables, as opposed to-- It's a needle-- but having said that, there is one take on "Stirwell Pater." So the fables have to do with-- it's a little bit autobiographical, but it also has to do with living now, and the things that we have, which is climate change, and ocean acidification, and stuff like that. So there's stuff about that. There are characters dealing with this kind of thing. It's about-- anyway, so it's-- Don't tell me too much, because I really want to see it when it comes to it. But it's just like when you're talking about-- I think it might be too strange for people. I never know. Like, I never know when most of us-- Another history of art is an incredible-- it's another impossible to describe project, and it's a masterpiece. You did a wonderful book with that, but it's one of those-- Oh, my God. Yes, so we're taking existing masterpieces and we casting them with women with little text on female. Sometimes we'll have cartoon characters or monkeys in there. Yeah, no, it is. I know. But it works. And that's-- Thank you, my God. You develop an identity, certainly, not just through the visual-- it's not just a visual style, but it's a visual sensibility that you bring that-- Well, thank you very much, because you never know, because, like I said, I'm mostly alone in my studio. And sort of dreaming this stuff up, and not sure if it's going to land anywhere, or-- Yeah. Are there people you bounce ideas off of? No. OK, how was it true if it's one of those? No, because I'm too wracked with self-doubt. If anyone-- like, even my husband, he knows enough not to say anything. Like, no, because in the beginning when I first knew him, he would say things. And I'd be like, oh, I have to start again, because it's terrible. And that's usually because he likes it, and you don't trust another person actually complimenting one of your pieces. I'm projecting on this one. No, here's the problem. He's an art director. Oh, OK, so he does have a real real background. So he does-- yeah, he does really-- he could legit. OK. Yes, I have to wait under the-- if you said anything positive, you're just lying to me, and that's why I can never trust you again. So yeah, we come from very different places when it comes to that. No, no, he's very honest. Oh, no, he would never say anything that he's like, I'm like-- No, he's very-- one thing he is, is honest. Yeah, but I think I'm-- I'm racked with self-doubts. I think most artists are, because what we're dealing with some deep shit, I don't know. They're self-doubt, and then there's the ability to make a painting a day for that entire run of the pandemic. So it's not crippling you. You're able to get your vision on either paper or canvas, or what were you making the women's portraits on? They're just on illustration board. But also, the projects have very different ways in which I produce the work. I mean, a lot of the-- another history of art, those were big paintings. I mean, there's one triptych that is the size of this wall, right? So that was really different for me. Most of them are 30 by 40, but the original sisters, that was definitely-- I knew I wanted to do one a day, because I knew I just wanted to do them. And I deliberately made them very simple. You won't see any hands or any other stuff. It's just simple. And I think most artists can relate to this. I paint something, and then I hate it. And then I think this is terrible. And then I go away, and then I come back, and it doesn't look quite so bad. Elves fix everything overnight. I had no idea until I started drawing. I hate something. The next day, I'm like, you know, those leaves actually come out really well with that. So we thought, OK, go for elves came in and drew on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I wanted to-- first of all, with the original sisters, I wanted it to be not a feminist thing, which is really weird. I didn't want it to be just for women. I wanted kids to like it, because it's got pirates and really cool-- it's got really, really cool stories. And because of that, I deliberately made them super colorful. Some of them are almost neon. And I did that deliberately. And coming from the work that I normally do, which is really sort of muted, and brown, and browns, and earth tones, and everything, I would deliberately get this like an acid lime green and paint the background, and go, and then start painting, and then go away, and think, what have I done. But I forced myself to just deal with it. And so that was another kind of project I gave myself. How much planning went into going into each day? Did you know the day before, OK, this is what I'm working on tomorrow? Or did you have a selection thing? I have no idea. Yeah, I mean, and people sort of ask, how did you do all the research? Well, you just keep your eyes open. I have a phone, I've got the internet, I can-- Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. And I mean, when I was younger, I used to just ride my bike up to the library. I spent all my time in the library, but no, with Google. There's-- yeah, so my big thing with that project was diversity. I made sure that there were women from the beginning of time to now, different ages, different religions. It was diversity was really important to me. Which is, among my greatest flaws with the podcast is my complete lack of diversity. So I do a terrible job of making sure I'm getting men and women, people of color, et cetera. So thank you for coming on the show and not saying, hey, Gil, you got a massage in this podcast. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. I think that I just think it's-- I think it's you just try, you try your best. Yeah, it's one of those where I don't notice the pattern. And then I look down, and I keep it all on a spreadsheet. And it's, oh, that's-- that male check box is filled again and again and again, but I really need to-- Yeah, but I mean, I was saying, when I went to school, I didn't have any female teachers. And then I went to the illustrator's workshop, and I had these great teachers. I had Bernie Fuchs and Alan Cober, who was my favorite. He was my favorite teacher of all time. Do you know his name? His name has come up multiple times in this podcast for people. Yeah, Leslie Cobers, Dad. Yeah. So who else? It was Bernie Fuchs and Mark English. And now I'm going to-- anyway, Bob Peake. Anyway, so all the great illustrators of the time. And the only hint of a woman artist was when they brought Barbara Nesim in for a few hours. Yeah. And that was it. So that's-- Tell me about your Barbara experience, because she's been one of my favorites. I had no idea. We recorded, had a wonderful time, and have stayed in touch for, well, God, it was from before the pandemic. So six or seven years now, we've corresponded. Yeah. And she's been a very good person and a very good artist. But tell me about your experience as well. Well, you know, I remember her from then. And she was-- I mean, if you want to look at her career, I mean, she was one of the first to really get into using the computer. Oh, yeah. I mean, she's a pretty significant artist. I mean, she's a very-- not even-- she's a very significant artist. And not a significant female artist. No, not a very artist, yeah. Absolutely. But she's-- how did I start? I think-- I don't know how this started. But a few of us started getting together for lunch when I was in New York. And of course, she's incredibly generous. She would invite us over to her studio, this magnificent studio on the West Side highway, overlooking the river. I mean, it's just-- it's magnificent. And so she invites me over, you know, with some other-- sometimes just me, sometimes other women. And I always go, and I want to make sure not to trouble her. And I didn't realize she meant for us to stay the whole afternoon, like we were supposed to stay the whole day. And I was like, I don't want to bother you. So-- and she just-- I mean, she just shows us all of her incredible work. She's itemized everything all of her sketchbooks. And she's just-- she's the most generous person, both with her time, with her connections. The last-- a couple of times ago, I was there. And she started talking about the Philippe Le Bon Gallery in New York. And I had never heard of it, and she said, you have to go. And so I went, but I-- I went, but I was too nervous to talk to him, because I have this terrible, terrible fear of gallery owners. Oh, my god. That's bad experiences. Oh, my god. When I was trying to do fine art for about 10 years, I was trying to be a fine artist that was disastrous. I kept going to some of the galleries in Chelsea. And the worst experience was I went to see this guy-- the Stux Gallery. I don't think it's still around this way. I said, I don't think it's still around. But he was so-- he was just-- I went in there, and I showed the book. And he made a point of being mean to me. Like, he-- like, everything I showed him, he said, explain this. And so I explained, he said, oh, I don't see that at all. I think you're way off the mark. This is terrible. And he said, why are you trying to shock me? What are you trying to do? And I was like, you've got a sculpture of a naked man with a pig head. And you're asking me if I'm-- anyway, and I left, and I was so demoralized. And I cried all the way back. I remember thinking, I'm a loser. And then that night, I saw Marshall Erzmann at something. And I said, Marshall-- I don't know what to-- like, I'm just so demoralized. And he said, ah, let me tell you some stories. And he told me some of the stories of how what gallery people had told him. And he was like the most-- and he saved me from going down a dark, dark, dark hole. Anyway, he was-- he was another guy who was incredibly wonderful to me. When I was really young, I took my work to him. And he gave me a list of people to call. And he wrote an article about me in CA. I mean, he didn't have to do that. You know, he was also incredibly generous. So anyway, just talking about-- but anyway, Barbara Nesim is similar. That's a sense of, I don't want to say, support. But yeah, the degree of-- I always tell people, shmoozing is my mutant superpower. You know people, you connect people, et cetera. But yeah, the degree to which, especially to make it in the arts, having connections, or just having people who've gone through something you've gone through, so you're not the only person ever to have been ridiculed by a gallery owner. That's got to be meaningful. Yeah, it's a life in the arts, I think, is difficult, because there really are no rules. And everybody has their own reasons for doing what they do. So it is difficult. But I do remember the people I met, the stars who I thought were so amazing who wouldn't even tell us what kind of pencil they used. I mean, come on, we're no threat at all. So yeah, so you remember the ones who were kind. You ever think in terms of comics? I'm really-- I just wondered, in the conversation with fanographics or anything else, whether there was a-- Well, the funny thing is, I was so into the editorial field that comics were a whole different animal to me. I really wasn't-- I'm really new to this, like this whole speaking at TCAF and stuff, like I am brand new at this. So I was on a panel, I was on a panel at MOCA. And I'm learning as much as-- I mean, I'm not an expert on comics at all. So you've mentioned a couple names. I don't know who they are. Yeah, but just the sense of, have you ever thought of doing panel-to-panel story? I have not. I have not. I think it would be incredibly difficult to do. I really do. Because you work in a very different visual mode in terms of what you make. It is really-- it is different, yeah. But I might be giving you your next project. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I have to say, I have nothing but admiration for people who are able to do that. Because you have to be able to draw really well. You have to be able to draw the main character. Yeah, consistency, yeah, yeah. And again, right after this, I'm going to sit down with our friends, Maurice, who's just on 500 pages of memoir as a comic. Well, I think he's an incredible artist, and just the way that he's been so kind, with his story and the way that he's able to articulate something really dark. That's also hilarious. That's also amazing. I think he's incredibly brave. I'm not sure I'm that brave. I'm not sure I want to go back to some of the bad stuff from my childhood and talk about it. It's too hard. I think it'd be too hard. I'm not going to put you through anything, because several of my recent guests have cried on Mike for various reasons. So yeah, I won't put you in that movie. But we have our stuff. And I think that's why a lot of people become artists. I mean, I just gave a commencement speech. I never wanted to do it. I always turned them down. But this time, I said, I think I might actually be able to tell people something, because before I was always-- what do I know? Who wants to hear me? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like what can I-- Turns out. But I think-- but it turns out, now that I'm old-- now that I'm very, very old, and I've been through a lot of stuff, good and bad, I think now I really can. And so I wrote something up. And one thing-- and I went through a lot of old stuff. And I think one thing I really realized was that art saved my life. And now you might see a tear or two, but when I was growing up, I grew up in an era where girls-- well, I don't know if it was other-- probably not other girls. But definitely, I was taught never to make waves, never argue, never be sweet all the time. Like, everything, you just had to be nice, nice, nice, nice, nice. And any time I-- like, even with my father, one time I said something that he took as an insult, and he didn't speak to me for days. Like, it was really-- and it was a little town, like a little conservative town. And I left at 17, and I never look back. And I was able to go to art school, and I put-- because I wasn't allowed to speak, I put it into my art. And that's-- and my early work is really dark. Like, if you really look at it, and luckily for me, I was able to actually start getting work. I was working locally for some of the magazines, and they gave me some heavy duty illustrations to do. Like, there was one woman who was a serial killer, no problem. There was a Nazi war criminal who was living here. I could do that no-- like, I could really-- I had no problem getting to the real darkness, right? But yeah, so that's kind of what I told them. So I sort of gave them tips for success and how-- and I know a lot of kids now are really suffering from anxiety and self-doubt and everything, and just letting them know that that's normal and stuff like that, things they need to hear that nobody would have told them. Did illustration help in terms of like having constraints? You know, I can make art, but I don't know when it's finished, finished, as opposed to, I've got this illustration-- Yeah, well, the deadlines can definitely determine when something's finished. Right, that's what I mean. If it's your own canvas, it could take forever. But that drawing's got to get done. That's absolutely right. Yeah, the fine art is like you can-- Yeah, you can sort of-- Swam around, but yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think it was more a matter of just I needed to make money, you know? And my uncle had been an illustrator, so that was in my head already. Like, I know that there are ways that you can-- for me, it was magazine work at the time. But yeah, no, I was able to be on my own and make a living. And it was, yeah. The original "Sisters" paintings, again, about 150 of them have been collected in the first book that was done. I'm saying first, because we're going to have more books about that that, though. I hope so. I hope so. But you've also seen it now in exhibitions. It's going to be another one this fall at the Norman Rock Well Museum. What's it like seeing that work in particular? You've had a few retrospectives of your work over the years. Yeah. Seeing those-- Well, it's-- So when I did the original "Sisters," I would do them, you know, it would take three, four hours, whatever, and then put them in the basement in Lynn's storage, right? So I never saw them all together. And I know somebody who's a curator in London, Ontario. She runs an art center. And she said, I want to show them. And I said, are they not ready? Are they ready? I don't know. They're not even framed. OK. So she kind of put a fire under my butt. And so I got them all framed. And I had the show. And it's a whole different experience doing something being 100% involved in it and then putting it away and then working on the next one. It's a whole different experience to see everything on a wall. That's the only way to understand where you've been and where you're going. So it was really great to see that show. And that's a-- because all my projects are so different, that one really-- I don't feel-- it's not about me. It's about these other women. And I think there's an educational component to it that I think, especially for kids, I think people need to know about these subjects. So for me, the subjects are more important than the paintings. That's why I haven't spent like hours and hours and hours making-- Yeah, but get the hands of everything else. Yeah, yeah. Do they change over time? Do you notice a progression or a change in how the art itself looked over the course of, again, two, three, 400 of them? Yeah, I think they're actually getting better. That's what I was trying to get. I don't like the early ones. Did you see the early ones? I think, boy, I was just-- Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing. But I was just trying to get this done. Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah, well, it's always that way. The more comfortable you are with the material, then the easier it gets and the better it gets. Yeah, yeah, so some of them I'm a little-- oh, well, but it really is about the person. And so they were in London, Ontario, and I would go every Saturday and just hang out with the people and answer questions and books and stuff. I have four people. Four separate times come up to me in tears. That's the-- it's not my work. Again, it's not about-- but it's about the project. It's about-- It's what you bring. Don't say it's not you, because that's another self-doubt. I have to tell you how you should feel and do the whole mansplaining thing like this is you. I mean, it's you channeling something. Yeah, I guess so. But I mean-- It takes some credit, is all I'm saying. OK, OK, but it really is heartbreaking that these extraordinary stories really-- I mean, I think they're actually starting to come out now. Like, I'm seeing on Facebook. People are starting to post some of these sort of forgotten women, I felt, OK, so maybe it's starting now. So maybe the timing is good. Do you ever envision being able to show all five-- if you finish the 500 of them, is there any venue that you're like, wow, if only we could get in here, we could actually do the entire Shameh? I would love that. I mean, yeah, I've got my wish list. I mean, the Women's Museum in Washington, I would love. I mean, any public place or a museum? I wanted-- I sort of wanted it to be able to travel to different places. Now, I'm thinking, I think that's a bad idea, because it's just so cumbersome. It's huge. Like, it's a big show. It's, you know. So now I'm thinking maybe if I can just get it into-- if anyone has any idea, it's like some place where they could be-- like, I know the dinner party is in a place in the Brooklyn Museum, like, just someplace. It doesn't have to be a museum. It can be any space where-- because I think it's just going to be too hard to travel it. I know the Rockwell Museum wants to travel it, but anyway, but that's only half the show, so. And you hope to get there when it opens up in November, so. Oh, great. Because we keep seeing each other at various events without actually just sitting down and talking. Yeah, well, the Rockwell Museum-- I mean, I'm-- I feel incredibly lucky that I've been able to hook up with Fantagraphics, that they took a chance on me with the first book and the Norman Rockwell Museum. I mean, I'm just-- I'm thrilled. They're doing incredible shows there. Nora Crook had a great show. I don't know if you saw that last year, man. She's brilliant. And yeah, they did a show about-- I think about race and about the vote. And I mean, they're really doing some groundbreaking stuff there. I think I think they're doing a great job. How'd you connect with them? I've had stuff there before. They have some stuff, some of them may work in their collection. I've done a couple talks there. What else? I've been in a couple shows. It was a New Yorker show. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about Toronto. You're from here. I'm from here. You've spent a bunch of years in New York, but you've been here for quite a while again. Yeah. It's my first time back in five years. OK. Which is a little weird for me, just because it was always the Toronto Comic Arts Festival. And it was always-- Yeah. Things were centered around that. And it was all in the before time. So it's been a very different weekend for me. Tell me about Toronto and what it means for you. I'll tell you that. Well, I mean, I was born here. My family moved to Kitchener Waterloo. That's the town I came like Waterloo is where I grew up. And then I moved back here to go to art school when I was 17. And except for a short stint in London, England, I moved there years ago, because I just want my favorite artists are from there, or they were, and they still are. And I don't know, Toronto, it has been, for me, easier. Like, it was definitely a price consider. New York is so expensive. I mean, my god. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's where I'm from, I'm Canadian-born. I don't know. I mean, I think if I won the lottery, I might not be here. Oh, sure. It is, you know. I might. I don't know. I mean, I still, you know, one of those browns-- You live next door to Barbara. What's that? You live next door to Barbara. Oh, yeah, that wouldn't be too hard. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, it's where I'm from. But you must have noticed the difference. It's becoming an insane city to live in. I first started coming here for-- my first trip here was a biotech show in 2002. And that's when all the green glass towers were starting to go up on the lake side. And they've never stopped construction. It's always-- the highways are always being ripped up and there's always something new expansion. Every of these blocks keep disappearing and they're going to put up more residential towers. Yeah. It's getting harder and harder to live. I'm not going to lie. They're right behind here, the next block, they're building two 50-story condo buildings. Like, right here. The trouble with that is that they're not-- it's a one-lane road. Like, they're not keeping up with the services. They're not keeping up with the infrastructure. The infrastructure. Yeah. Like, we were walking on the main street a couple of weeks ago and I was like, look at this. Look. It's-- the traffic is stuck. Like, 10 blocks back. And all of a sudden, we heard, and ambulance was trying to get through. And they couldn't get through. Yeah. And so I thought, well, OK, someone just died, because nobody-- yeah, so I have a lot of issues with that. It used to be very livable. There used to be really cool, small neighborhoods like you were talking about where the beguiling was. That was a really cool little neighborhood. Great restaurant, a Cajun restaurant, right? There was a Cajun restaurant. There's a fortune teller, they're David Mervish bookstore, like it was a really-- All of the used bookstores are gone. Like, all of the used in our meter bookstores, I used to go to the 2000s, like-- I know. --all disappeared. I know. It's getting harder and harder to deal. Yeah. Anyway. But I think we're kind of stuck, because moving any-- it's become so expensive, like moving anywhere else in the city. Like this isn't the best part of town, but if we were to move to a nice part of town, it would cost-- I'd start selling the paintings. A billion more. Do you sell the paintings? I have no idea if, like-- I do sell the paintings. Yeah. I have no idea if it's-- especially with the original sister's thing, whether it's a-- it's one big collection or-- The original sister's is-- Philippe Le Bon has a-- has-- Yes. Yeah. So he-- You never got back to that. So you were too intimidated to talk to him the first time. How did you end up-- Oh, right. --represented. So I went there with a friend, and I saw him, he was talking to someone, and she said, "Go talk to him. I'm like, no. I don't talk to him." No. And, you know, I don't-- I don't know. Hi. I'm an illustrator. You know, like it-- I don't know. So I thought, you know what, I do want to-- I do want to talk to him. So I just-- I sent him some postcards, and I said, you know, I love your gallery. I can't remember what this show was, but I thought, this is insane. This is such a great gallery. This is where I want to be. You know, after all the-- Yeah. --this is where I want to be. It's right in the middle of, you know, it's important just by virtue of where it's located. And then there are all these amazing artists, and he's such a cool guy, and so-- so I sent him some stuff, and then-- and then I remember I was at the show in London, and I got this phone call, and I didn't-- I didn't recognize the things I thought I'd forget it. So I didn't-- I didn't call him back. I thought it was like a scam thing. And then I finally did call him back, and I thought, "Holy shit." So-- so, yeah, I mean-- And he thought you were too cool, so that-- that probably worked to your advantage. Oh, my God. Yeah. You didn't pick up right away. Oh, she must think she's too good for me. Yeah, probably. Yeah. I'm glad that's-- that's-- having somebody nudge you is usually a good thing. Yeah. And as you know from me, the whole postcard thing is-- is my-- my real way of communicating with people. Yeah. Yeah. I used to only send postcards, because I thought, you know, people keep them. They're not-- they're nothing too cumbersome, like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every single one I've received in the last-- oh, God, since 1988, I guess. Yeah. I go way back with these things. Yeah. I don't think people do that much anymore. So, I think it makes it even better that they're-- Yeah. Yeah. I mail postcard every day. It's special when you get-- I sit down every morning after I finish every two pages of Emily Dickinson, write my journal, and then I write a postcard. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. And I will put you on the-- the list for the next-- Fantastic. Perfect. Okay. Because I have the-- the-- the foreign stamps I use. I have to decide, you know, whether I'm sending the U.S. or non-U.S., but yeah, it's part of my-- Okay. I just let somebody know that you thought of them, and you went to the effort not just to write something. You put a stamp on it and went to a mailbox, you know, that actually carry some resonance in a way that we're all too-- too digital, too, you know, quick texting or emailing or something. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. This is a different sort of notification as well. Yeah, yeah, that's great. So you mentioned your favorite artist from London, Dish, who you're-- Yeah. Oh, oh. Well, when I was in art school-- okay. When I was in art school, I really sort of-- I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. Like, I thought, you know, do I do kids' books, like, you know? And then I went to the illustrator's workshop, and I thought, I like editorial illustration. This is where I want to go. And-- but when I was in school, we had an English-- one of the students was Paul Hodgson. He's a really good designer, good Canadian designer. And he had come from England, and he kind of clued us into all the really great stuff that was going on-- on there, you know, from way back before my time hypnosis and, I don't know, George Hardy and Bush-Hollyhead and all those guys, all the guys who were doing music. And then my generation was more like Russell Mills and Ralph Stedman and SuCo. And they were all-- well, many of them were people who had gone to the Royal College of Art before it was privatized, so they were doing incredible political work. And Russell Mills was working with Brian Eno, and, I mean, this was my thing. I just loved them. So I moved-- I actually moved over there with Bruce Mal, I don't know if you know who that is. He's a designer. He was my best friend back then. And we just thought, well, that's it. We got to move to England. He got a job right away with pentagram, and I was trying to get editorial work, but it was difficult. But I did get some great jobs. I met some great Art Director's Gary Day Ellison, Chris Jones. I was working for radio times, and so it was-- for me it was always England. And one of the best, most amazing things in my life is that I've-- back then, I was supposed to deliver something to Ralph Steadman, and I was too shy to do it. And I've since become really good friends with him, because we met doing-- we met in Istanbul, and we were doing a cartoon competition, and we became friends. And I see him quite often, a couple of times a year, and he's become a great friend. Hoping to wrangle, that I may end up hitting you up for some connection. I worked with his publicists at one point, they wouldn't be right for him to do an interview right now. I was like, yeah, I know, but I can get to England. I'll sit down with him, you know, when I record it with Dave McKeen. Oh, I love his work. We're in London, but he lives near Steadman. He lives in Tentard, and yeah, and that's an hour away from you. Next time you're here, come to my place, and we'll door stop, and we'll get in and when else plays do, I'm like, however I have to do it, I'll do it. You know, when I'm at Ralph's, I often wonder if I should contact him. Dave McKeen, I'd love to meet him. I know that I know that he would love to meet Ralph. I'll connect you. No, I mean, he knows Ralph, he would love to barge in with me to introduce me to Ralph. Well, I'll tell you something, Ralph's wife died a few years ago, so, and she and I used to do everything, but now Sadie, Sadie does everything for him, and she's organizing a massive show in the U.S., so it's starting in Washington, D.C., starting in September, so it's going around the U.S., so. I will try and find some way of sitting down with him, because he's one of the all-time greats. He's one of, I think he's it, he's definitely it, yeah, for me, for me, if I had to say a favorite. Yeah. Influential. If you look at his work, it doesn't, okay, de-insiderate influence. Do you know, he is influential to me, just in a way that he... More than his career is influential than the actual arch. Both. Both. The way he approaches everything. I'm in awe of the way of, I mean, everything is about, he will tell you that the reason that he does what he does is because he's trying, he wants to improve things, he wants to make the world better. Now, of course, he's saying I failed, you know, because all you have to do is watch the news. So yeah, he thinks he's failed now, but so there's that, there's this incredible depth to his work. He's tapping into something pretty deep. The way that he experiments with things, I think most artists, myself included, have a problem, you know, like, is this work? Does this work? He just does it and leaves it. I mean, the way that he censors or doesn't censor himself, that's really something to learn from. But thinking back to striking a post book, I think I asked him about it and he thought it was a great idea. So I think that's one of the, also one of the reasons I did it because if he, because he's very, like he'll tell you if he doesn't like something, when I first met him, he sort of, he thought my work, he thought I was trying to make it too perfect. He thought it was too detailed. So he said you need to, so point taken, yeah, for sure. And that, and somehow I sort of felt a little bit more like I had the permission to be a little bit more messy. Yeah, that's not a question I have with artists and writers, where the permission comes in in your mind. Yeah. You know, with a lot of writers, there's a sense of I couldn't write X, Y, or Z until my mother died. Yeah. Or until this happened. Absolutely. And yeah, with visual artists, I get that sense of, you know, you can do something, but yeah, you know, can I actually do this? Well, it is. And especially if you've grown up with the burden of, of, you know, being, being, having to be a nice girl, like a nice sweet girl all the time, you know, that's a, that's a, it's really hard. It's, you know, it's like, am I going to get in trouble? Yeah. And I'm old, you know, like this, this stuff stays with you. Oh, that's, that's, I, I have a story of how my old man continues to wreck my life at 87 and 53. Oh my goodness. But she still he pulled something a couple of months ago, and I was just like, God damn, we never escaped this. That's just incredible. It's amazing, isn't it? I know. Yeah. So I should ask because I always ask my guests this and I have no idea how, how this part of your life goes. But what are you reading? I'll tell you what I'm reading. Yeah. Okay. So I just finished a couple books. Okay. Right. I'll start from now and go backward. So I'm reading a book about longevity because I'm becoming acutely aware of my age. I'm getting a little worried people around me are starting to get sick and die, you know, so I'm kind of very curious about new research into health, you know, so I'm reading that. But I just finished reading two books about, my husband is turning 60 in August. And I said, what do you want to do for your birthday? And he said, I want to go on the safari is like, God, you couldn't pick something cheap. So, so we're going to a, a place that I, I met this woman at a conference a long time ago and she was married to the elephant whisperer. I didn't, there's a whole story about that. She was an incredible guy, sadly died of a heart attack. But he was given a herd, herd of rogue elephants and, and, and he, he managed to tame, you know, he was, it's, it's all to do with rescuing animals. They have two white rhinos under 24, seven armed guards because of poaching and everything. And I, I'm very much into animal rescue, like I've rescued a bunch of cats and monkeys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she's awesome. So we're going to go there. So I, so I read those books about, you know, about concert, animal conservation. So those were my two last books. So yeah, I guess, I don't know anything, I used to read a lot more fiction than I do now. Yeah. What change? Just don't feel it. I don't know. I started, and then I started reading real heavy stuff like about, um, God, what's that guy's name he's, uh, I'm blanking on his name. See, I'm getting older. I'm interested in this stuff. Like, how do I, how do I keep my memory? How do I, how do I keep my health as long as you're not doing the whole, I need to upload my brain to, to an AI thing that I'm okay with, with, you know, just worrying about your health is one thing. But we talk about AI. It makes me so, it just depresses me. It makes me so sad. It makes me so sad because this is what the rest of the canvas of the Mona Lisa would look like if she had giant boots, you know, that's just, yeah. Okay. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. The way it's going to, you know, all of it, the way it's, it's the way it might replace the arts. I'm already, you know, the way that the way that the way that magazines already is. Oh, that's, I was talking to someone who, who doesn't know what I used to do. And she said just some of the, oh, nobody reads magazines anymore and I'm like, yeah, you're right. Right. Like that somehow. And it's not even like a lot of illustrators are talking about how, um, well, there's no money anymore. Well, that wasn't even it for me. I mean, when I was a magazine illustrator, I was, I was lucky. What a, I don't, you know, I mean, it was, it was a magical time. I mean, imagine I was working with great art directors who were giving me complete freedom to do whatever I wanted, get paid, get published. I mean, it's, it's, it's, and have like 10s of thousands of people see the work. I mean, that doesn't get, like that's crazy. I can't believe how lucky I was. Um, so, but what, so, you know, I mean, there was less money, um, so the magazine started folding. But also what, what I didn't like was that there was less, um, creative freedom, you know, we, we couldn't do what we wanted to anymore. Lucky we were just now waiting for the editors to say, can you make this change this color, do this? I need 50 ruffs. I need this, this. So, so the whole fun, you know, so the fun of it, the, the whole idea of what I loved about magazine illustration was that you could, um, make personal comments about and be part of a cultural dialogue. You know, so there was something really amazing about that. And then when that started to, um, to change, I think I stayed too long. I kept hoping it would get better, but nobody leaves a party on time, you know, we always have to go for staying or welcome with these things. Yeah, I stayed too long. Yeah. Anyway, it's sad though, but because, because I still see a lot of kids, um, leaving art school wanting to do something like that, but they're, you know, the whole strategy now to be successful as an artist. I mean, it's, it's completely different. You know, you don't just go into one field like I did. I mean, you, you know, you do a little bit of that. Maybe you have an Etsy store, you're teaching and you're doing this and you're doing a bunch of things. Everything's a hustle. I mean, yeah, it is. I know. You know, an art art. Yeah. Yeah. Hi. So yeah, we won't replace you with AI. Hopefully they won't scrape my voice and, and make fake podcasts after I'm gone. But, you know, but it puts you in a funny, like, I know my friends are taking all their stuff off Facebook and, and Instagram and everything. I mean, should I do that? I don't know. I have no idea. I mean, a lot of people who don't understand legal language are complaining about terms of service that, oh, they're stealing all our stuff. I can't tell one way or the other. Again, I've made all of these things. I'm not joking about the ability to, to rip my voice. They could probably put together gills says anything based on, you know, analytics, what I was about. Wasn't it about the actor strike? Yeah. Yeah. Well, somebody told me that, um, with stable diffusion, you can go there and say, draw a horse in the style of a knee because, and you'll get it, but it won't be that good yet. The horse will have five legs and, you know, weird stuff. That's right. Yeah. Which you may end up doing at some point for your own paintings. Yeah. I was, I was going to, I was, I was going to submit an idea. I want to do an idea for the New Yorker, but something like about AI. And then I thought, no, it's, it doesn't, it doesn't work, you know, anyway, but it's fake. Well, yeah. There's a, yeah. There's a thing about a guy who won a photo contest by submitting an actual photo, a set of an AI photo, which is what the contest was for and then they disqualified him for being too human, which, you know, I, I could be disqualified for being too human. I'd be fine with that. Yeah. Yeah. But it's frustrating because I do have some friends who are very pro AI and it's, it's an argument. You can't, I can't win the argument. I mean, it's, yeah. Yeah. I don't get it. I mean, as somebody who was a science fiction geek, all my, my childhood is still a degree of once we, once we saw what the applications actually look like in the real world, it's no, this is not what we were signing up for when we were kids. Yeah. AI is supposed to help me, not replace me. Yeah. Like it's, yeah. Well, the, the thing nobody wants to cop to is that the jobs that'll actually get replaced are really like executives. Uh, they're the, the, the management people could probably be phased out by this stuff more easily than, than artists, but they certainly don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. For artists, it's going to require a completely different strategy. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. You'll keep painting. I'll give you what I do is you'll come up with some sort of issue. Okay. There you go. I swear to God, it's going to happen. But when, but when I was at TCAF, I remember, I remember thinking this is, this is, this is what's, um, this is the antidote to AI. Yeah. All of these original, um, stories and original drawings and original, you know, all the, everything, like that's, that's, that's, that's why AI can't necessarily win, but it might anyway. It's pen on paper. That's, that's like I told you, I went to LA. The first thing I went to see was a giant cardboard sculpture by Wayne White with a fan built in the bag. I love it. No AI. I was going to come up with that in a million years. Yeah. I love the diversity and originality. And that's, that's what I told the students to, that's it, it has to be and don't, yeah. Yeah. And you bring plenty of it, Anita, thanks so much for coming on. Okay. It's been great. Finally getting to sit down in person, even though we recorded remote, we've seen each other in person three or four times. I'm going to actually get to do this with mics now. So thanks so much. Okay. Great. Great. Thank you so much. And that was Anita Coons. Her books are wonderful, striking a pose from Fantagraphics. Like I say, life drawings, mail nudes with celebrities faces on them. It is, it's a whole lot of things wrapped up in one original sisters from Pantheon, now getting to see those paintings in person when I was at her place. I can't wait for the, the exhibition at the Rockwell Museum and another history of art, which came out in 2021 from Fantagraphics. I saw some of the originals for those too, and they're really ornate frames and they're wonderful to see. So again, as we talked about, there's a big exhibition of original sisters coming to the Norman Rockwell Museum this fall, opens November 2024, if she doesn't get me an invitation, I am hoping to sneak in and get there for a reception. But anyway, you can follow Anita at her site, AnitaCoons.com, that's A-N-I-T-A-K-U-N-Z.com. She's also on Instagram as Anita Coons, spelled the same way, all one word. And both of those, the Instagram and her site have a ton of her paintings and her illustration work, and they're just so wonderful to look at. Both the artistry, I'll say the technical craft and the individual style, what she brings to it all, the iconography she's developed, there's so much going on in her work and it's such a joy to look at. There's also a site for the original sister's art, and that is OriginalSisters.com. All one word spelled just like it sounds. They can support the virtual memories show by telling other people about it. Let them know there's this podcast that comes out every week with really interesting conversations with fascinating people. You can also help out the show by telling me what you like and don't like about it, who you'd like to hear me record with or what movie or TV show or book or music or piece of theater, art exhibition, comic, whatever you think I should turn listeners on to. You can do that by sending me a postcard or a letter, I put my mailing address at the bottom of the newsletter I send out twice a week, so you can get it from there, email, DM if we're connected on blue sky or Instagram, or you can use my Google voice number, which is 973-869-9659. That goes directly to voicemail, so you don't have to worry about getting stuck in an awkward conversation with me, and messages can be up to three minutes long, go longer than that, you'll get cut off, just call back and leave another message. And let me know if it's okay to include your message in an upcoming episode of the show. You might say something really interesting for the listeners or the listeners would like to hear, but I'd never run something like that without your permission, so let me know. Now, if you got money to spare, don't give it to me. My day job treats me fine, even this Toronto trip, a little pricey, but it was great to get away for three days, sit down with Anita and then Maurice Velacoupe, and then that evening got to dinner with both of them and their partners. It was a wonderful weekend. Anyway, don't give me money, give money to other people and institutions in need. You can help out people through like GoFundMe, Patreon, Kickstarter, Indiegogo, CrowdFunder, all those crowdfunding platforms. You'll find people who need help making rent, paying medical bills, vet bills, car payments. They might be trying to get an artistic project off the ground that you can help with. Just a couple of dollars might make a real difference in someone's life, so try and look for opportunities like that. When it comes to institutions, I give my local food bank and World Central Kitchen every month, make occasional election contributions, donate to freedom funds, plan parenthood, women's choice. There are a lot of things you can do that if you have a couple of bucks to spare, you can help make a better world, so I hope you will. Our music for this episode is "Fella" by Hal Mayforth, used with permission from the artist. Just visit my archives to check out my episode with Hal from the summer of 2018 and learn more about his art and painting. And you can listen to his music at soundcloud.com/mayforth, and that's M-A-Y, the number 4, TH. And that's it for this week's episode of The Virtual Memories Show. Thanks so much for listening, we'll be back next week with another great conversation. You can subscribe to The Virtual Memories Show and download past episodes at the iTunes Store. You can also find all our episodes and get on our email list at either of our websites vmspah.com or chimeraupsgira.com/vm. You can also follow The Virtual Memories Show on Twitter and Instagram at VMSPod at virtualmemoriespodcast.tumbler.com and on YouTube, Spotify and TuneIn.com by searching for virtual memories show. And if you like this podcast, please tell your pals, talk it up on social media and go to iTunes, look up The Virtual Memories Show and leave a rating and maybe a review for us. It all goes to helping us build a bigger audience. You've been listening to The Virtual Memories Show. I'm your host, Gil Roth. Keep reading, keep making art, and keep the conversation going. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]